Morning Joe - Morning Joe 12/4/24

Episode Date: December 4, 2024

Trump considering Ron DeSantis as replacement for Pete Hegseth: Reports

Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Wednesday, December 4th. We have a lot to get to this morning, including the concerns from Republican senators about the growing allegations against Pete Hegseth, Donald Trump's pick to serve as defense secretary. We'll have that as well as new reporting on who Trump may be considering as a replacement should he abandon the choice of Hexhev. Plus, nearly a month after the election, we finally have a clear look at the balance of power in the House.

We're going to dig into the razor-thin majority for Republicans during the first 100 days of Trump's new term. Also ahead, a live report from South Korea, where protesters are out in the streets following the president's shocking and short-lived martial law declaration there yesterday. Along with Joe, Willie and me, we have the host of Way Too Early, Jonathan Lemire, former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO, retired four-star Navy Admiral James Tavridis. He's chief international analyst for NBC News. President Emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations Richard Haas.

He's author of the weekly newsletter, Home and Away, available on Substack. And U.S. special correspondent for BBC News, Cady Kay is with us. Good to have you all on board. You know, Willie, this is just one of those mornings where so much news is flooding the zone. There are people that went to sleep last night and woke up this morning finding out, first of all, that Donald Trump is talking to Governor Ryan DeSantis to replace Pete Hegseth. I had heard yesterday afternoon that he was already talking to people and he was moving in that

direction even before Lindsey Graham broke against Hegseth saying it was deeply troubling. We also of course had the last House race called by the Associated Press, which means that when Donald Trump becomes president, he's going to have a one vote majority. Republicans are in the House of Representatives. So I keep talking about a unity government. I say that because they're not going to get to get to get much done at all unless they figure out how to get Democrats and Republicans working together there. And then finally, what happened in South Korea yesterday, we talked about

the declaration of martial law and a lot of things happening very quickly. Man did that backfire and blow up in the face of the president. And just an extraordinary outpouring of protest, people remembering what it was like to be under martial law in the 1980s, what it was like to be under martial law in the 1980s, what it was like to be under military rule in the 1980s, and extraordinary scenes in South Korea showing that the flame of democracy cannot be put out once people have tasted that freedom.

Yeah, these are live pictures just after 8 o'clock at night in Seoul of protesters coming out, President Yun there putting in martial law and then quickly in the face of this resistance pulling it back with pro-democratic marchers and protesters out in the streets this morning also Joe on this busy morning, you didn't mention Alabama at this moment in the college football playoff should be yes right where they heard it and and a Alabama at this moment in the college football play. Yes,

right where they heard it and and a decision we're told imminent from one Soto with 4 and a half teams left according to the New York. That's Yankees Red Sox Blue Jays and maybe the half is the Dodgers though unlikely given their outlays to other players so a very very busy morning. Well and on on one of those things you brought up, Mika was in the other room.

I was peacefully doing my research. Peacefully reading in. And she heard screams from the living room. And it was when Alabama was placed above Miami. Of course, there will be people who will whine. So loud. Miami is 0 and 2 against top 25 ranked teams, Alabama 3 and 1.

So yeah, it's something we're gonna have Pablo come on to talk about that in a little bit. But yeah, absolutely fascinating. Alabama of course, three losses, but you look at Miami, they've had a horrible schedule all season. They played two ranked teams, they lost, they lost their last two out of their three games. So it makes a lot of sense,

but man, this is absolutely bizarre. We're also gonna be talking with Pablo about a Wall Street Journal story that talks about one of the richest men in the world who went to Illinois helping Michigan get the top recruit because his I want to get this right. I'm not sure if it's his girlfriend or his wife is a UM grad and so they just they just wrote the

check and welcome to college football 2025. There we go. The billionaire is history wife and college football's wildest recruiting saga. We'll also have Pablo talking about that. But a lot of huge news. Mickey, even I will say it's time to move on from sports. All right. Let's get to the news. Amid the growing controversy over Pete Hegseth's nomination

as defense secretary, the Wall Street Journal and the bulwark are reporting that President-elect Trump is weighing whether to replace him with Florida Governor Ron DeSantis. Both outlets cite people familiar with the discussions. NBC News has not independently confirmed the reporting, but this comes amid increasing concerns from some Republican lawmakers over the mounting allegations concerning Hegseth's

personal life. People close to the President-elect's team tell the general Trump allies believe Hegsath's personal life. People close to the president-elect's team tell the general Trump allies believe Hegsath's nomination may not survive further scrutiny. As the paper notes, picking DeSantis would amount to a stunning turn for Trump, but in DeSantis, Trump has a well-known conservative with both military and executive experience who shares Trump's

and Hegsath's view on eliminating the so-called woke policies from the armed forces. Joining us now, the reporter who broke the story from the bulwark, Mark Caputo. Mark, what more can you tell us? Is this imminent? Are there any other catches that could hold this up? Well, I was told it was a really serious conversation they've been having, and they've been having it for a while. And it's not Donald Trump's people talking to Ron DeSantis' people.

It's Donald Trump talking to Ron DeSantis about it. I've got to say, having covered both of these guys, having covered the Republican primary, it's really kind of hard to see this happening. But I've been assured, and was reporting it out yesterday, that no, no, it's really kind of hard to see this happening. But I've been assured and was reporting it out yesterday that no, no, this could really happen. It's not just that Pete Hegseth has these problems. It's that Donald Trump is serious, not just about getting the woke out of the military, is that he believes that there's a certain amount of bloat, and understandably so, and perhaps a certain amount of fat that needs to be cut from the Pentagon budget. And you're going to need

someone who is able to do that and withstand the political pressure. And there's one thing, whether you dislike Ron DeSantis or you like Ron DeSantis, that most people agree on, is that DeSantis is very stubborn. And when he sets his mind to doing something, he does it. He doesn't care about who howls. So if, and it's still an if and perhaps a big if, Ron DeSantis is appointed to be the DOD secretary, the defense secretary. Yeah, he's going to pursue these social policies, but there is a strong possibility, I'm being told, that he'll actually try to really cut some of that Pentagon budget, which has a lot of profligate spending in it. You know, Jonathan O'Meara, you've reported on Donald Trump for a very long time and understand

these stories started coming out about his, about Hegseth's drinking problems. And we've heard it over and over again. And in fact, we had heard, there's an NBC report talking about how numerous people inside of Fox News say that he still has a drinking problem. He still shows up drunk. He still shows up smelling of alcohol.

We had actually heard that from our team had heard that from a source inside of Fox News, a reliable source inside of Fox News last week that, you know, they're saying you don't have to talk about 2018. This is still happening. And that was a real concern that people inside the Trump transition had also been hearing. So I'd heard last week, and I know you had too from my sources inside the Senate,

that the Republicans were already going south on this guy last week. Then his mother's letter hit this weekend that actually lined up with what we've heard from so many of these accusations about his behavior and his drunkenness when he was running the two vets organizations. Now the Fox News story has come out. But again, the Fox News story that NBC's reporting is no shock to the Trump transition team.

They were already hearing it from inside Fox themselves. So given what Donald Trump's always said about alcohol, about his brother, about the lack of discipline, he even has written about it, you know, hard to see how Pete Hegseth gets through this. And hard to see, especially when Lindsey Graham is saying there are a lot of concerns. One Senate insider laughingly told me, Lindsey's a lagging indicator.

This was done some time ago. Talk about it. Yeah, a few things here. First, that NBC News story that suggested Hegseth would show up on set at Fox smelling of alcohol one of the reporters behind that story Courtney could be joining us in a few minutes, but you first of all you're right to underline Donald Trump's distaste for alcohol he has

said repeatedly he has never drank in his life he blames it for the death of his brother someone he cared about deeply. He also judges harshly people who he thinks drink too much let's remember Rudy Giuliani lost a cabinet post in after 2016 election in part because Trump saw him drinking too much. So that's these reports are not going to help. Hegseth's case. Now Hegseth himself. Yes Joe, I heard from Republicans yesterday as well. Even as Hegseth's been making the rounds on Capitol Hill that his nomination is in deep danger there could be up to 6 or more

Republican senators you only need 4. We're ready to sink his nomination, including Lindsey Graham who normally goes along with whatever Trump wants takes that appearing on Fox later today for an interview which is a sense maybe a last ditch effort to save that nomination but he's got an uphill climb and Willie if it ends up being governor to Santas certainly this is a one-time rival of Trump's but just like Marco Rubio a one-time Florida politician rival of Trump Trump has improved relations with the

sand is at least somewhat and I'm already told in this morning Republicans say like the status would clear through the Republicans that he's got relationships on the Hill from his time in Congress. He was already been sort of publicly vetted for his runs for governor as well as of course his ill fated presidential bid and that he does not appear to have the baggage that Hagseth does. And then opening another big position in the state of Florida if that happens to you the

Senate with Marco Rubio you got governor's office with potentially now Ron DeSantis as well. Let's get to that report that from NBC three current seven former Fox employees telling NBC News Pete Hegson would drink in ways that concerned his colleagues. Two said he smelled of alcohol before going on the air as a co-host of Fox and Friends Weekend more than a dozen times. NBC News reports three current employees said his drinking remained a concern up until Trump announced him as his choice to run the Pentagon at which point Hegseth left Fox. For the sake of national security I really hope he has stopped drinking one of the former Fox employees said he should not be secretary of defense another

former Fox employee said his drinking should be be disqualifying," end quote. This follows a report from The New Yorker earlier this week that detailed accusations of impropriety and drunkenness that led to Hegs' ouster from two top veterans groups nearly a decade ago. Spokesperson for the Trump transition tells NBC News, these disgusting allegations are completely unfounded and false and anyone peddling these

defamatory lies to score political cheap shots is sickening. As a decorated combat veteran, Pete has never done anything to jeopardize that and he's treating his nomination as the most important deployment of his life. Hegs's lawyer referred NBC to the Trump team statement and Fox News did not respond to requests for comment. Joining us now, NBC News Pentagon correspondent Courtney Kuby, one of the reporters who broke the allegations about those concerns over Pete Hegs's drinking. So Courtney, you have 10, I believe, sources on this story.

This is not just one person leaking something out to you. Tell us more about what you found in your reporting. Yeah, and I have to say, we worked on this. Our colleagues Chloe Mellis and Sarah Fitzpatrick and I worked on this for several weeks. This wasn't the story that just came up. We spoke with more people even than are reflected in the story. And these aren't people who are out to necessarily,

you know, criticize Fox News. Consistently, we were talking to current and former Fox News employees who were concerned about his Pete Hegseth qualifications for such an enormous job at leading the Department of Defense. So as you mentioned, Willie, 10 current and former colleagues from Fox News who told us about this pattern of behavior over the course of years where Pete Hagseth would repeatedly shot sometimes moments before the 6 a.m. show would start on the weekend morning and he would talk and

sometimes about being hung over about how he had barely slept or not slept at all because even out all night. He'd been out partying and oftentimes he would even come in and they could still smell the alcohol from the night before. So coming in still with some of the, at the aftermath from his night before being out drinking. In addition to that, we also spoke with colleagues who were at social events with him, Fox news

social events where they would see him overindulging. So candidly, you know, it was, it was behavior that is reminiscent of that New Yorker article that you mentioned of him overindulging in alcohol at official events with colleagues and at times behaving in ways that was embarrassing or not necessarily befitting of the leader of an organization. You guys are all on on shows. You know how this goes when the host or the anchor of a show shows up only moments before broadcast before you go on the air if it's a lot of stress on the staff on the show on the producers and that was what we consistently heard here

was that this behavior really caused angst and concern and yes, what we're talking for the most part about a period of several years ago before he moved to Tennessee, we did also speak with colleagues who said this continued to be a concern. His drinking up until he terminated his contract with Fox News on November 12th, when Donald Trump, president elect Trump, named him as his secretary of defense. A consistent thing that we heard throughout the course of the several weeks that we reported out this story, Willie, was the concerns about his character here. And one thing I have really been struck by was

when Hexeth was first named several weeks ago, there was a lot of talk about the policies that he could come in and implement as the Secretary of Defense. We heard a lot about his feelings that women should no longer serve in combat positions, what could happen potentially with transgender individuals who are serving in the military, serving openly right now. The conversation has really shifted over those weeks to concerns about his character. The drinking has been one, his treatment of women has been another.

And as you mentioned, it has really been a nearly daily drip, drip, drip of additional allegations and accusations. That's why, as you were talking about, there seemed to be this, this increasing concern among Republican senators who candidly would usually support president elect Trump's nominees. All right. NBC's Courtney Kuby, thank you so much. Greatly appreciate it. who candidly would usually support President-elect Trump's nominees. All right, NBC's Courtney Kuby, thank you so much. Greatly appreciate it. Let's bring in Admiral Stravidis. Admiral, you know, we always talk about how two things can be true at one time.

So let's just let's walk through this for a second on a human level. Everything that we've read about Pete Hegseth and his first tours in combat zones suggests that he did a great job, honorable, and in uniform was respected by those around him in his early tours. We also know though a lot of men and women come back from war zones, and perhaps they have PTSD.

I'm not suggesting that's the case here. I don't know what the case is here, but it is very obvious by seeing the pattern of behavior since he returned from the combat that he obviously, he needs help. I mean, if you, even just read what his mother wrote, and I know that now she's trying to be a good mom and trying to defend her son after that's out, but what she wrote lines up with what people said before, during, and now after.

So this appears to be, and I think the Trump transition team believes this, this appears to be a man who needs help and not the nuclear codes. Yeah, I think we talked about that earlier in the week on exactly that point. I think there are three baskets of problems here. Number one, which we've talked about quite a bit this morning, the kind of character issues that email from his mother is heartbreaking to read. Then there's the policy issues. I don't see how you become the secretary of defense of an organization that's 20 percent

women in virtually every combat role. And by the way, I've commanded thousands of women in combat since I was a commander in the Navy, a Commodore, an admiral at sea in Afghanistan. Women fight well in combat. I've seen it again and again. You can't go into the building, the Pentagon, with that kind of a stance that women should be pulled out of the force. So there's a policy basket. And then third, I think, and finally here, it's the size, the scope, the scale of running the Pentagon. The

place is three million people active in reserve, budget of 800-900 billion. The people we need at that desk, I'll give you one Republican and one Democrat, Robert Gates, head of the CIA, was Secretary of Defense, I worked directly for, Leon Panetta, Democrat, Chief of Staff in the White House. These are the kind of serious people we need running the Pentagon. So I think Heg Set's nomination is in big trouble. I'll close with this. You talked about Pete Heg Set's combat record. I respect that. There are other options out there and if you look at Ron DeSantis, he also served in combat.

He was the Navy JAG advising Navy SEALs in the Middle East. His combat record is just fine, but he's pretty clean on the other issues of character we talked about. So Richard, Pete Hegseth has said in the past in a book he wrote and in multiple interviews, this was not a one-off mistake that women should not serve in combat, calling them, quote, a distraction. He was asked about that yesterday. Do you think they should be in combat talking about women?

He said, I think they're already in combat. Maybe he doesn't want them to be, but they're already there. What's he going to do about it? We heard Senator Lindsey Graham yesterday, probably as Joe said, a lagging indicator saying this is gonna be very difficult for Pete Hegs if I have a lot of questions for him about his behavior, about his past. Where do you see this headed? Oh, it's clear where it's heading.

There's a precedent for this. People forget George Herbert Walker Bush, the 41st president. Who was his first choice to be Secretary of Defense? John Tower. He had problems, if I recall, the phrase was with the beverage alcohol. And who became? Dick Cheney became Secretary of Defense. So the idea that you would have someone who has these personal issues in such a critical

role, it's not going to happen. Second of all, if it is around DeSantis or anybody, let me say, Willie, the idea that the biggest problem facing the American military is wokeness is preposterous. That's not on the top 10, not on the top 50, not on the top 100. We have real issues. And by the way, it goes beyond the fact that there may be bloat in the budget. We've also got a fact, we've got an inadequate budget. We're facing challenges in three geographies.

This is a time of great technological innovation. You've got China, Russia, North Korea, Iran in some ways aligning. So yes, there's bloat in the Pentagon budget. We're spending too much in some cases on the wrong systems. But this is a very powerful case that we need this needs to be a time of great innovation and actually expansion of what we spend on defense, given what's going on in the world geopolitically and in the world of technology. You know, Cady K. yesterday when Lindsey Graham came out and talked about all the problems that he was having, you know, obviously there's the fact that he's just not qualified to run a bureaucracy that large.

There also, of course, were the drinking problems, the character problems, his mother talking about his abuse of women, the allegations there. But this is what struck me about Lindsey Graham's statement. It was almost like he was channeling Joni Ernst and other women who are Republicans who give a damn about the DOD and about women in the military. Lindsay said this, Senator Graham said this, leadership comes at the top and I want to make sure that every young woman who joins the military feels respected. That's and and and Joni Ernst also said, we're going to have a really frank and thorough conversation. But again, Lindsey Graham, a conservative from South Carolina saying, we want to make

sure every young woman entering the military feels respected. That really does sound like one of the final straws there. I loved your description of Lindsey Graham as the lagging indicator. Certainly not the ID indicator. Well, it wasn't mine. It wasn't mine. That was the source on the hill who said that.

It's women at Pies. We take what we're given, but it was a very good one. Yeah, I noticed that too when I heard that. I mean, maybe this is Lindsey Graham pushing back against quite a lot of those stories we've seen in the press about the Manosphere flexing its muscles since the election and women feeling a little intimidated in the last couple of weeks. But Mark, let me just get you a little bit more on Pete Hegseth, because I think what's

fascinating about the pick of Hegseth and Matt Gaetz is why did Donald Trump choose these people? I mean, I realize the Fox thing, I realize the presentation, but there were, there are plenty of people in MAGA world who are also qualified to run these huge, big departments. So what was this? Was this showing that he could? Was this keeping the base happy? Was this owning the libs? What was the point of these selections? Two separate things, But overall, understand this. Donald Trump is going to do what Donald Trump wants to do when Donald Trump wants to do it. And when he no longer wants to do

it, he doesn't do it. So that's the story with Matt Gaetz. Donald Trump really wanted a very loyal attorney general, someone who would go in there and to paraphrase someone who had paraphrased what Matt Gates told him to go in there in the Department of Justice and start cutting effing heads. He didn't say effing, he used the full word. And that's what Donald Trump wants. He wants someone to go in there and clean house and get rid of what he believes are the politicized Department of Justice personnel and prosecutors. And obviously that could be debated. The problem that Trump faced is that he made this decision on the fly.

And then as they counted votes, he realized he would have to spend a whole bunch of political capital on Mad Gates and it just wasn't worth it. Similarly, the Pete Hegseth decision was made on the fly. Now, Department of Defense is not as important to Donald Trump as attorney general, but obviously it's a huge and crucially important agency.

He always liked Hegseth. He wanted Hegseth previously in his first administration to possibly head up Veterans Affairs. And he thought this would be a good time to sort of bring him back and put him in that position as sort of a shock and awe type of candidate, along with Gates and along with few of these other controversial nominees. I think, but I can't promise, that Hegseth is probably gonna go the way of Matt Gaetz,

simply because I'm hearing the same pattern of conversation again, which has taught people who are just saying, man, I don't know if the Senate's gonna do this. One thing that is different about Donald Trump now, as opposed to in 2016, is that he has a much better idea of how the Senate operates, and he knows he needs to do

his agenda in a very short period of time. He doesn't want to get caught down and bogged down in these messy, nasty confirmation fights. At a certain point, it's not going to surprise me to see Pete Hegsass say, I'm a distraction, the way Matt Gaetz did, and then he exits stage right. distraction, the way Matt Gaetz did, and then he sorts of exits stage right. Albeit it's Donald Trump, so he might just dig in and fight even harder. We just never know. All right. National political reporter for The Bullwork, Mark Caputo, thank you very much for your reporting this morning.

We appreciate it. Thanks for coming on. And still ahead on Morning Joe, we're going to get to the unrest in South Korea this morning. Here's a live look at protests taking place right now in Seoul, where demonstrators are calling for the president's resignation after he abruptly declared martial law and then backtracked hours later. We're back in 90 seconds with the very latest. The president of South Korea facing calls for impeachment after he declared martial law there. President Yoon Suk-yol abruptly imposed the emergency law yesterday, claiming

the opposition was, quote, trying to overthrow the free democracy, Yoon accused the Democratic Party of anti-state activities and sympathizing with North Korea almost immediately after the president's declaration. Protests erupted in Seoul and hundreds of troops stormed the parliament. The National Assembly quickly

voted to rescind the martial law, calling it invalid. The president then lifted the order, bending to political pressure. Now, South Korean lawmakers have submitted articles of impeachment against the president and are calling for his resignation. The country's defense minister has already offered to step down. That was quick. There is so much here to talk about. First, very chilling that an ally of the United States, somebody as important to the United States would fall this way, but also, of course, very encouraging on how quickly the pro-democracy forces pushed right back almost immediately.

I'd love to have your take about this and also explain to Americans waking up this morning just how important South Korea is. Coincidentally, Ron DeSantis came on this show, and one of the things I was surprised about, this was during the campaign, was how much he dumbed down his presidential campaign because when he started talking about foreign policy he could take you around the globe very quickly and effectively and one of the things he said was the alliance between South Korea and Japan was extraordinarily important for the United States in pushing back against China. So talk about that, talk about what you saw yesterday and what we should be taking away from it in America.

Let's start with alliances in the Pacific. You know, we don't have a NATO in the Pacific, obviously, but what we do have is a series of vital bilateral nation to nation alliances. You mentioned Japan. We're going to talk about South Korea. It's also Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, the Philippines. We have this network, this kind of glittering array of alliances in the Pacific, and each of them are critical.

So that brings us to South Korea. Boy, when I saw that yesterday morning, A, I was shocked at the sudden move by President Yun. And then as the day went on, I was heartened by the response. I mean, this was not only protesters storming the parliament, it was lawmakers storming the parliament from both sides. And they overtook those barricades and came in to vote 100% against the coup. That's really what undid it at the end of the day. So you could say, as you're showing those pictures, unfortunately, kind of feels like

January 6th, except on this case the people cracking in are the good guys and they came in and overturned this attempt. So final thought, military one. South Korea is in a state of war with North Korea. They're a treaty ally of ours. We have 20,000 U.S. troops full-time stationed there. We have thousands of troops also up in Japan. The United States has a big stake in all this. Yesterday was a good day for democracy and a good day for our alliances. Richard, I had the same thought as Admiral Stavrius watching that. I said, look at the forces of democracy go. I mean, they literally rushed to the legislature to undo this and it was undone very quickly can you

explain though the context in which this happened for people to understand why this president would even call in the first place for martial law. I think it reflects two things Willie one is the president himself President Yoon someone I know pretty well from a lot of meetings he's got a police background very very rigid. And I think in some ways he snapped, and that brings to the other side. His wife was under all sorts of pressure

for getting investigated for things. He couldn't get anything done. Dozens of people were facing impeachment in his administration, couldn't get the budget through. I think he was just frustrated at every turn. He then did this, clearly did not think it think it through gets reversed very quickly. He gives way I actually think as the Chinese would say he's lost the mandate of heaven. I don't see him coming back from this I think what will happen now, you'll have formal impeachment. There's a whole

Political than legal procedure in in South Korea. I would be surprised if he can survive this politically I would not be I would actually bet that he can, and we're probably facing new elections for president in South Korea. And just building on what Diagonal was saying, this is not just a critical ally. South Korea, by virtually every matrix, is in the top 10 countries of just about everything in terms of the size of its economy. It's involved, say, in Ukraine as an important provider of ammunition. Issue after issue after issue. South Korea is a major country. And probably one of the big, you know, we're talking about breakthroughs in the last few years was the reconciliation between South Korea and Japan. And it's actually one of Joe Biden's biggest diplomatic successes. President Yun,

as well as former Prime Minister Kishida, deserve a lot of credit. And right now, you've got real political uncertainty in Korea, as well as Japan, a new leadership there. So you've got to worry a little bit about where this is heading. So, Kat, Richard makes the good point that South Korea really stepped up also in defense of Ukraine, a vital contributor to that effort. You know, it's one that President Biden is really looks to as a bulwark to China's rising aggression. So it's such a stunning 24 hours there in South Korea. Talk to us about the ripple effects we're feeling globally in a place where there's just so much tumult and so many different hot spots across the world.

Yeah, I mean, the Biden administration really has put enormous amount of effort into shoring up those South Asian and Northeast Asian alliances as a counter to China, to South Korea, Japan, down in the Philippines as well. And Tony Blinken has spent a lot of time traveling out there, when, of course, the administration has been able to spare time from the Middle East in order to try and get those alliances on board. And now there are, of course, questions about what happens when a Trump administration comes in. If he is to go ahead with a regime of tariffs, even against allies, what kind of impact does

that have on a country like South Korea, on Japan, on the Philippines, countries that the United States now needs as a counterpoint to China? And one thing that is worth saying about South Korea—and perhaps, you know, there is a question here for other democracies as well. Yes, South Korea is a strong democracy. We saw the forces of democracy fight back very fast and effectively in the last 24 hours. But it's also a country that has a lot of corruption at the highest levels. You've got two former presidents who are in jail on corruption charges.

The current president, whose wife is under investigation, you've got a former president who took his life over corruption charges. The current president, whose wife is under investigation, you've got a former president who took his life over corruption charges. And you wonder how strong can democracy be when there is corruption at the very top? And I think that's a lesson as well for other countries looking at South Korea, that you have to have transparency and rule of law and get rid of corruption in order for your democracy really to be one that is solid. So let's change topics, Admiral Stravidis, and let's go from South Korea to the Middle East.

Obviously so much happening there. And please give us your insights and then we'll ask Richard for insights this morning. First of all, what's happening in Syria and what that suggests about Iran and Russia's weakening positions, and also, of course, the fragile ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah? Sure. Let's start in Syria. I think you've got it exactly right, as the dark forces here, if you will, who have been supporting Bashar al-Assad, the dictator and war criminal who has had his way in Syria now for decades, his family,

what you're seeing is Russia weakened because of what's happening in Ukraine. Iran weakened because of a series of attacks against them by Israel. Hezbollah, another supporter of the Syrian regime, likewise quite weakened. So as always in geopolitics, nature abhors a vacuum. As there's less going on that can stand in support of Assad. These rebel forces are coming in. Now before we start cheering too loudly, Team Rebel in Syria has got an awful lot of Al-Qaeda DNA, some Islamic State DNA, terrorists. So this is not good guys and bad guys on the march here, but it does indicate that Iran is losing its grip.

And what Iran has desperately tried to build is a kind of a land bridge that stretches from Tehran to the shores of the Mediterranean. This takes a big chunk out of that, and that's a good thing. Final thought is let's turn to the ceasefire, which feels like it's kind of crumbling between Hezbollah and Israel. This was never looking like it was going to be a sudden deus ex machina to solve all the problems and predictably you're seeing a finger pointing going back and forth. And that of course weakens the chance for any kind of ceasefire down south in Gaza.

Woe to the hostages. The bleak outlook in the Middle East continues. Yeah, I think what I agree with, Jim, what Syria shows is the enemy of your enemy can still be your enemy. There's no good guys there. This is basically a failed country now. And you know, in the Middle East, we have to worry both about strong states and weak states. And you've got strong states to some extent like Iran, but also weak ones like Syria,

like Lebanon, which can't do what governments are meant to do. And then we see terrorists and others exploiting them. Ceasefire in the North, I agree, it's fraying. I don't think it necessarily collapses. It's a big gray area between something that works and something that fails. It's not a switch. It's a dial. What I would watch is two things, though. Yesterday, Donald Trump was putting pressure on Hamas to release the hostages.

So I think the administration is still pushing very hard for a ceasefire there. I don't know if they'll make it, but I think Iran has to calculate what it would face if against the Trump presidency in part over Hamas, and also again over the nuclear issue. I think the biggest single issue in the Middle East is Iran's nuclear program. And if Iran feels that its position in the region

is weakening as it is on virtually every front, Israelis have demonstrated certain capabilities to attack it. I think the biggest challenge the new administration could face is in Iran that goes pelt-melt towards developing nuclear weapons. And will the administration be able to head it off diplomatically, or will they and Israel decide they have to work together to head it off militarily? Donald Trump may not want to have military crises. That might be one he can't avoid. So, Admiral, all these flash points around the world point to the critical importance

of who is the next Secretary of Defense. So let's end with you where we began with that position. We're talking about Pete Hegseth, the possibility of Governor Ron DeSantis of Florida being chosen by Donald Trump to replace Hegseth there. We're talking about women in the military as a man who commanded a lot of women in the military. And Senator Joni Ernst of Iowa, Republican, who served valiantly in the military,

served in the war in Iraq as well. And the question she and others will have, what are your final thoughts on that? Yeah, just very quickly, we also heard from Lindsey Graham, Senator Lindsey Graham, Senator Joni Ernst about this whole issue of women in combat. There's another name for Lindsey Graham and Joni Ernst, it's Colonel. Lindsey Graham is a retired Colonel in the US Air Force, a Judge Advocate General.

And as you just pointed out, Willie, Joni Ernst is a Lieutenant Colonel. These are two people who know the force, they know the women, they understand their capabilities. I think of all the opposition to Pete Hicks, all the different things we've talked about, I'd draw a line under what Colonel Lindsey Graham and Colonel Joni Ernst have to say. All right. Retired four-star Navy Admiral James Tsavridis and Richard Haas, thank you both very

much for coming on this morning. And coming up, we'll take a break from politics to discuss the latest college football playoff rankings. Right now, Alabama is in the field of 12 teams, but there are some who say the tide does not deserve it. Pablo Torre is here to talk about that and a lot more. Morning Joe is coming right back. Welcome back to Morning Joe. Beautiful shot of Chopper 4. Gosh.

Of a New York City with. Gorgeous morning. Vampire Weekend framing. You're the sipper body. Okay, be quiet. Time now for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. New data shows more American students

are struggling in school and being outpaced by kids overseas. A closely watched international exam studied math and science scores of fourth and eighth graders in the U.S. and also dozens of other countries. Researchers say the pandemic only deepened slides that had already started, noting American science scores have fallen since 2015. President Biden is in Africa this morning where he reflected on the brutal history of the transatlantic slave trade. He also met with Angola's leaders to talk

about economic opportunities between the countries. Biden's three-day visit marks his first to the continent as president and likely his last international trip before leaving office. And Mark Zuckerberg is seeking an active role in shaping tech policy under the new Trump administration. The company's president of global affairs recently said the social media giant, quote, over did it a bit when moderating pandemic related content. According to The Guardian, that concession appears designed to placate the president-elect. Zuckerberg's overtures come as Elon Musk,

the owner of rival platform X, has emerged as one of Trump's closest advisors. And the Wall Street Journal a few days ago talked about all of Elon Musk's competitors in the tech world, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, others, and what they were trying to do to push back. Speaking of pushing back, Alabama pushed back against Miami and maybe headed back

to the college football playoff, the Crimson Tides ranked number 11 in the CFP rankings, one ahead of Miami, which slid six spots after the Hurricanes. Some of their second loss of the season in three games this time against Syracuse, blown a 21 to nothing lead. Well, with neither team playing this weekend, Miami's unlikely to jump Alabama before selection Sunday.

There would be left out of the 12-team playoff to make room for the fifth highest rated conference champion. Meanwhile, undefeated Oregon remains number one for the fifth highest rated conference champion. Meanwhile, undefeated Oregon remains number one for the fifth consecutive week. Ohio State drops four spots after its miserable loss to Michigan. That bumps up Texas, Penn State, Notre Dame, and Georgia. While Tennessee, SMU, Indiana, and Boise State round out the top ten. Let's bring in the host of Pablo Torey, finds out. Metal art media MSNBC contributor Pablo Toreyre. Mike Bargel also joins the discussion. Pablo, of course, I knew what was going to happen last night. I knew we were going to get there.

Reece was going to be moderating the conversation. You were going to have, you know, Booger McFarland saying that you had to look at the records that both Miami and you know Nutley maroon Raiders JV team were undefeated so they should go ahead of the University of Alabama but you just look at the numbers I'm sorry let me just say it Alabama three and one against ranked teams Miami oh and two against ranked teams and Miami weakest, and they almost lost time and time again. I think it did a man at the end, don't you? Yeah, look, the strength of schedule stuff is real.

Miami was number 55 in the country, Alabama number 17. But when you say, Joe, that you knew how this is gonna happen, that is exactly what everybody who hates Alabama expects you to say, because of course now this has the feel of the 13-member cabal, the college football playoffs election committee, making the decision that everybody was alleging they were gonna make, which was a favoring of your time.

You misunderstand me. I knew what was gonna happen and that I knew that there were gonna be people saying, oh, you have to look at the record as if playing one lousy team after another and beating 10 of them and losing to two of them. You know, that's, that's, you know what, you know what that I hope the committee has forever learned that when you put a team like TCU in, just because they have a weak schedule, they're

going to get humiliated and it's gonna be bad for the sport. That's what I was saying was, I knew people were gonna say, oh, look at the schedule and nothing but the schedule. That's idiotic. That's why I said, why don't you just look at the nutty Maroon Raiders JV schedule?

It's ridiculous. It is clear that the SEC still produces a strength of record, strength of schedule that is unparalleled in college football But the reason that Mike Barnicle and I were sort of just cursing at each other over in that little area over there and like Looking at this paper. I brought a paper Joe. This is a 12 team playoff for the first time. I have all these notes I'm like, it's a little just manic weird Steve Kornacki is what I've been this morning Yeah, what you need to be to avoid humiliation, just for the record here,

is the biggest SMU fan in the country. Because just keep in mind, right, there are some things happening at conference championship weekend, Clemson, SMU, and the ACC title game. If Clemson, which is currently number 17, upsets SMU, Alabama will get squeezed out, it looks like. No, they won't. No, they won't. It looks like Alabama will get squeezed out. It looks like no, they won't. No, it looks like they would get me out.

No, they won't really let me tell you why I bring Pablo on here just so he can set me up. Yeah, he's like he's a bowling pin. I can knock down right because truth-teller bowling pin, you know your mileage very Willie. I know that Pablo is an artist and he has a focus on data like I do because as you know, I'm data-driven Sky, yeah, but if SMU loses to Clemson this weekend They like Miami will have played two ranked teams all year and they will be oh and two against those two ranked

Teams just like Miami ranked teams all year and they will be 0 and 2 against those 2 ranked teams just like Miami. They will have lost to BYU, they will have lost to Clemson, 0 and 2 whereas Alabama beat number 19 Mizzou, Alabama beat number 13 South Carolina, they beat number 5 Georgia. There's no way you're gonna put in somebody that can't beat a top 25 team over a team that's 3 and one against the best teams in America Willie I know you agree with what I could make a case show that Ole Miss in South Carolina should also be in the same record Alabama SEC yes, I'm totally hung up Joe

though on your 2 references to the not leave. Raiders because only I think I and 4 other people get the reference not Lee high school please not in New Jersey we used to play them in basketball, they had a great 8th grade basketball team led by kid named Larry Mose went on to play baseball at Notre Dame how you know not Lee high school, I have no idea Larry not only also the home if I'm not mistaken of one John

tower, a legend, yeah Joe history that's true. What a reference I totally spun out by this problem, I just respecting not Lee New Jersey where you're wearing your not Lee maroon this morning which is appropriate. Okay so Pablo the Boise state of it all yes, they've had a great season. Okay, they win their conference they get the by I don't think anything so the 4th best team in the country but they get the by because

they win their car right in defense of Boise State they lost one game at the buzzer at Oregon Oregon had to kick a field goal with no time left in their home field to beat Boise State so they're there but what could change this weekend, you just talked about and SMU but what could be different at the end of these games. Yeah, there are 2 loser leaves town championship matchups here it's in the big 12. Arizona state, Iowa state whoever wins that game is going to be and whoever lose is going

to be out and the aforementioned Boise State right they play you and LV as I consult my sheet of paper here in the Mountain West. And that's also only one of them. There can be only one. It's Highlander style in the Mountain West. And so stuff is going to happen. And by the way, you mentioned Oregon.

Oregon and Texas, the number one overall seed is on the line. And then the Big 10, of course, excuse me, in the SEC, it's Georgia, Texas. Big 10, Oregon, Penn State, number one overall seed, now belonging to Oregon, currently just feeling the hot breath of Quinn Hewers and the latest fifth generation manning kid. Yeah, they're really good. Joe, let me ask you a question.

I mean, you've been following college football since you were putting on your slippers when you were five years of age, OK? But my problem with college football is basically the portal where kids now go to college they can switch semester after semester go to other schools, everything like that that's taken a lot of the romance of college football out of it for

me, I don't know about you but the history of the portal and players now becoming economic commodities rather than student athletes. It's bottomless. Well, you know, I started the season thinking it was destroying college football. I still really think it does destroy the community of college football. I will say, though, here we are at the end of the season. It used to be, and everybody knows this, you lose one game in college football, you may be able to play for the national championship.

You lose two, you know what? Enjoy your January, because you're not going to be playing anywhere. We have teams losing two, like those SEC teams losing two, two, three, two. And every one of those teams may be just as good as Oregon, who looked weak against Wisconsin, who looked weak against other teams. Ohio State, we saw how weak they looked. Texas, you know, Texas, I'm not a believer. I'm not, maybe they're the best. I will say, Mike, at the end, they one, one night, or let's just say one half against Georgia, Alabama looks maybe like the best college football team since you know since LSU in 2019 the second half they look like a seller dweller and that's

kind of how this whole season has been hasn't it Pablo yeah you can't I can't I can't tell you that Oregon. I could beat 5 of those teams I can't tell you Texas could. I thought Georgia would be the best, but you saw Georgia Tech take them to eight overtimes. You saw how badly they played the first half. The parody now is absolutely insane. That does make it more exciting. At the same time, there is a sense of community that's been lost by the portal. Yeah, two things. Number one, to me, the economics of college football

have merely come out into the day, into the daylight. There's always been money, always been boosters, always been capitalism. It's just been in the black market sense. And so what we're seeing is merely the effects of what happens when you know what's going on in the back rooms. So that's part of the romance.

It's always been more sully than I think we wanted to admit. The second thing, though, is that despite all of the reasonable frustrations about the professionalization of this sport, it's unkillable because the product itself is games that are obsessed over by maniacs played by teenagers. And that premise, Joe, is why you can see anything on any given weekend, including a fight, because someone put a flag on your logo at midfield

and then a goal post comes down. It's the best sport because of the chaos. And this sheet is not just a symptom of my madness. It is a symptom of the chaos of a sport that you can try to change, but at its core is that. Is that magical romantic thing. I will say, speaking of a magical romantic thing, one of the most magical and romantic things

that happened this entire college football season was one that hurt. That hurt me. But to see Vanderbilt fans take the goalpost, take it down, put it into the river. I mean, Willie, that really was, that was absolute magic. And that is, as Pablo says, why college football is still what it is. Really quickly, we've got two things to talk about. I just throw this to all of you guys.

Pablo, first, take us to the bizarre Wall Street Journal story about the else and the billionaire the unknown wife and the most recruiting saw ever and some would say yes. Is what's wrong with college football this year take us through it. Yeah, fair critique is the fact that Larry Ellison of course bazillionaire of Oracle fame, the guy we didn't know, the business press did not know,

he was even married. Turns out he is, and he's married to a woman who is an enormous Michigan fan, and she has turned both of them into enormous Michigan boosters. And so the number one quarterback prospect in the country is his kid Bryce Underwood, and that kid was at LSU, committed there,

now has flipped to Michigan. There is a seven figure payday, approximately $15 million he could earn in total from endorsements and otherwise by showing up in Ann Arbor. And it's not just Larry Ellison, it's Tom Brady calling him three to four times a week before class. It's just the stuff that you used to suspect was happening

but now even more of a caricature. So if you don't like this, I understand it. But because it's capitalism, it's the market speaking. Do we know where Larry Ellison's wife stands on Juan Soto? Oh, wow. What a transition. But it's what it is. It's basically a booster can function like an owner of a pro sports team and whoever has the most money has

the best chance of getting the kid who's going to be the person deciding the crazy 12 team bracket potentially next year that you're putting your backpack on from school and Tom Brady's calling us that hey man. I mean you're playing court and you're like I don't know. I don't know it's incredible OK quickly before we let you go because we've done way too much sports for me because liking but we have one more

story sorry one soda so we're getting more now yes fans reporting that a decision is imminent could be in the next couple of days or around these winter meetings for major league baseball. That's Yankees and that's red Sox in the mix blue Jays reported to be in the mix long shot Dodgers 30 pain somebody 700 million dollars maybe not this guy to what are you here. Yeah, I'm hearing the voice in the back of my head that says of course the Yankees are just going to pay to keep them

right. Yeah look what this guy you've asked the wrong person for an unbiased opinion on this because the last time I was at a Yankee game is game 5 and I was being scarred by the trauma of the worst inning in baseball history. But Juan Soto is the guy, to use a Red Sox reference here, who might have the finest plate control and discipline since Ted Williams. That is the promise of this guy.

And if you're the New York Yankees, if you're any of these teams, of course, you'll pay as much as you can. But to me, this all feels like a market being created when you know that the biggest purse with the tightest strings might just being Yankee Stadium and those will open up and they will keep him as much as there are reasonable dalliances to the country in Queens, though John the counter here.

I had this generation of Steinbrenner's has not always that's the tightness which is a pay for this. We're delighted the Red Sox are in the mix. I don't think you actually think you'll get there but I do think the Sox will be big spenders elsewhere this winter, but there is just been the sense around baseball for months that this is the guy Steve Cohen wants the owner of the Mets who's got unlimited resources a chance to upstage his

Crosstown rivals, the Yankees that no matter what as we were talking about earlier no matter what the offer is from the Yankees to Soto Cohen will simply beat it and he'll beat it and beat it and if and if one so no represented by Scott Boris does not take hometown discounts if he just wants the biggest number that biggest number might speak we can I've never seen such good plate discipline from any hitter in the out of the league American National League other than one

soda since Ted Williams, I'm sure you'll agree with me on that. Yep, that's right. I've been, I just needed you to say that. Thank you. She's always said that. And let me be the one person saying that I don't think it's over for the Red Sox. I think there's a special connection with Ortiz, with Manny, with the organization, with the history.

You can go to the Mets, but if you go to the Mets, you're playing for the Mets. If you go to the Yankees, you're number two, you're number three. If you go to the Boston Red Sox, Fred Lynn will tell you that can make a difference between being a great player and remember it is a legend. Fred Lynn always said if he stayed with the Red Sox, he'd be in the Hall of Fame. He left, he went to Anaheim, he didn't get there. You don't wanna play for a backwater team like the New York Yankees. You wanna play at Fenway.

The Larry Ellison of Fenway Park is pronouncing his recruiting pitch clearly. No, but seriously, when you play at Fenway, you're part of something bigger and you're the biggest part of that. And Juan Soto, Juan Soto would be that man with the best for that rock take them down. Yeah, it's just that might be reality passed his prologue

I've been told and then now this is this is the Red Sox have the best form system they've got the best young players coming up they told him they're going to buy 2 or 3 good good players to go along with him. Come on. This seems simple. Mika doesn't it? Yeah. This whole segment has completed me. It's been magical and romantic. Thank you. The latest that was that was that was the bandy. That was the van. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Torrey finds out podcast is available now. Pablo Torrey, thank you. I think this was too long. The best point of our time.