Morning Joe - Morning Joe 12/5/22

Episode Date: December 5, 2022

Trump calls for Constitution to be terminated

Well, the election is this Tuesday. They've already started counting votes by male. Right, but you got to remember, they still got to count votes by female. Maybe in the final push, let's lay low and focus on the message. Exactly. Just like Kanye. No, no, no, no. On the issues people care about.

Inflation, crime. Vampires, werewolves, that scary little gecko gecko. Yeah, we're going to be looking into all of that. All right. Saturday Night Live on Herschel Walker ahead of tomorrow's runoff election in Georgia. Turnout continues to break records. We'll tell you where things stand right now. And attention, all constitutional conservatives. Do you have anything to say about Donald Trump's latest assault on democracy? This is the line, folks calling for the United States Constitution to be terminated. Will top Republican leaders speak out or will they follow their party down the drain? We'll also play what incoming Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin

Netanyahu had to say about former president's embrace of anti-Semites and white nationalists. So he is trumping all over our values and now spitting on our constitution. Really? How far does he need to go? Or how far do you need to go before you are no longer a Republican? That might be the question Republicans want to ask themselves this morning. No, it is. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It's Monday, December 5th. With us, we have the host of Way Too Early, White House Bureau Chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, the host of MSNBC's Politics Nation and president of the National Action Network, Reverend Al Sharpton, U.S. special correspondent for BBC News,

Katty Kaye, and the founder of the conservative website, The Bulwark, Charlie Sykes, joins us today. Great to have you all on board this morning. Joe is off. Former President Donald Trump's false claims about the 2020 election now have him calling for the Constitution to be terminated. It came after Twitter owner Elon Musk promised to expose how the company suppressed free speech by blocking the New York Post story about Hunter Biden and the run up to the 2020 election. The so-called Twitter files were released on Friday, but failed to show any evidence that Democrats or the government pressured Twitter into suppressing the story. Still, Trump tweeted this on Saturday with the revelation of massive and widespread

fraud and deception and working closely with big tech companies, the DNC and the Democrat Party. Do you throw the presidential election results of 2020 out and declare the rightful winner? Or do you have a new election? A massive fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations and articles, even those found in the Constitution. Democrats were quick to condemn the remarks. The White House released the following statement. The American Constitution is a sacrosanct document that for over 200 years has guaranteed that freedom and the rule of law prevail in our great country.

The Constitution brings the American people together regardless of party, and elected leaders swear to uphold it. It's the ultimate monument to all of the Americans who have given their lives to defeat self-serving despots and abuse their power and trampled on fundamental rights, attacking the Constitution. And all it stands for is anathema to the soul of our nation and should be universally condemned. You can not only love America when you win. Most top Republicans have so far been silent. Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger tweeted this with the former president calling to throw aside the Constitution. Not a single conservative can legitimately support him and

not a single supporter can be called a conservative. This is insane. Trump hates the Constitution. He then called on top Republican House members Kevin McCarthy, Elise Stefanik, and Jim Jordan to respond. Former Trump National Security Advisor John Bolton tweeted, all real conservatives must oppose Trump's re-election bid. And here is former chief of staff to Vice President Mike Pence on Meet the Press. I don't think it's a good platform for a presidential campaign to say that we should just set the Constitution aside. And I feel like we've seen this, I think, digression continue ever since January 6th. And, you know, candidly, as far as putting the Constitution aside, I candidly think that's what he asked the vice president to do two years ago when rioters were attacking the Capitol. And he asked the vice president to overturn the election results. And so I think, unfortunately, this has been a consistent trend. And there was

this exchange involving the top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, Mike Turner. Should the standard bearer for the Republican Party, the frontrunner for the nomination for the presidency for your party in 2024, say this. Well, you know, I vehemently disagree with the statement that Trump has made. Trump has made, you know, a thousand statements in which I disagree. There is a political process that has to go forward before anybody is a— Constitutional conservatives are pretty clear about where they value the Constitution. Right, exactly. Is there any scenario with suspending the Constitution?

You do get to pick the questions, but I do get to pick my answer. I know. I'm trying to get you to answer the question I'm asking. There is a political process that has to go forward before anybody's a frontrunner or anybody is even the candidate for the party. Do you condemn him saying something like this? Absolutely. And I believe, answering your question,

that people certainly are going to take into consideration a statement like this as they evaluate a candidate. Really? You have to evaluate that? You have to evaluate that. So you have to evaluate racism. You have to evaluate anti-Semitism, core values of our country. You have to evaluate when they are trumped on and you have to evaluate terminating the Constitution.

There is no Republican. There is no one who can call themselves a conservative. Quite frankly, there's no one who can call themselves an American and still support Donald Trump. It's pretty simple. And Republicans, you know this, you're in a corner. He's put you in there. You are squished into that corner. The question is, are you going to man up and step out? Donald Trump has now told us, Charlie Sykes, that he's a traitor to the U.S. Constitution. He's a traitor to America. OK, in his words, I don't think there's any other way to put it. I don't know what else you need. I don't know what middle ground there is in any answer to any question about this, but an unequivocal rejection of Donald Trump. And we've watched our values get flouted, mocked over the

past several weeks, even throughout his entire presidency. But come on, what more do you need? But who are you? Because you're not a Republican, not you, Charlie, but people like Kevin McCarthy and Jim Jordan and Elise Stefanik and other leaders in this party who can't claim to actually even Mike Pence can't really come come close to saying it. He's getting closer. God bless him. Better late than never. But the Constitution of the United States of America, he stated he wants to terminate the United States Constitution. This is done. He put it in writing. This is the story. I mean, I feel like we're in some sort of an insane alternative reality simulation here. I mean, in the last two weeks, you've had Donald Trump pledge solidarity for

the January 6th rioters. He has dinner with an actual neo-Nazi and a notorious anti-Semite who is a fan of Adolf Hitler. And then he calls for terminating all the laws, including the articles of the Constitution. And the Republican Party, you know, the fact that they cannot draw the line here is really extraordinary, although perhaps not new. It is as if Donald Trump has gone full troll. How far can he push this? How much can he get them to swallow? You know, on Tuesday, we had a federal jury find the Oath Keeper leaders guilty of seditious conspiracy. Four days later, the former president of the United States says seditious conspiracy.

Hold my beer. I'm actually going to put out a call to terminate the Constitution so that I can be restored and Republican. Lost Charlie there. I'll get his audio back. But bottom line is, it's not just what he can get Republicans to swallow. He's making complete fools of you and everything you stand for and everything you've ever worked for in your life. But he's a danger to our country. These are dangerous statements. He is telling you what he wants to do. Believe him. OK, like how much does this country have to go through? How much division? How much hatred? How much pressure on our system?

How much law enforcement, the FBI, the Department of Justice, police officers, anybody who's in Donald Trump's sights? How much does this country have to go through? How much stress on our system and on our democracy? Do we need to endure before we see that this man is a fascist and that he has very, very bad intentions? And Republicans, you are helping him by not stepping up and manning up and saying what is right and who you are and what you really are, what you stand for. And if you're not a Republican and you're not a conservative, then you can go follow after Donald Trump. But if you are. Then you need to walk away loudly today. The Washington Post's Ruth Marcus has a new piece entitled Trump's call for suspending the Constitution is too dangerous to ignore. And Ruth writes in part, quote, the former and would be future

president has suggested suspending the Constitution in his support of his deranged belief that he won the election and that its results are subject to change. By the way, guys, he knows he lost. He is doing what he's doing, which is fascism. A man who took an oath to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution, now has hijacked our great founders in the service of his megalomania? No, this is insurrectionism by social media. Nothing and certainly not imaginary fraud, capitalized or not, allows for the termination of constitutional guarantees. Trump is laying the groundwork for a coup. The mere willingness to entertain and encourage extra constitutional action is alarming, coming from a man who is seeking to return to office. Hello. We do not want to give him oxygen,

yet there are times we dare not ignore him. This one, this is one. It should be neither excused nor forgotten. And Jonathan, Mayor, it is important to put a frame around what Donald Trump said and ask every Republican to tell us where they stand on this. Yeah, this is Charlie ticked off the last couple of weeks. He pledged support for insurrectionists, dinner with a neo-Nazi, now wants to terminate the Constitution. That is quite the campaign kickoff for Donald Trump's 2024 bid. And the silence from Republicans is telling. And a few that have been willing to talk off the record have said, well, you know, Trump, he doesn't mean it. He just says things. He exaggerates. But we've been here before. Trump, yes, he says a lot of things. But that same attitude, Rev, is what got us to

January 6th. This idea, we all remember the days after the 2020 election, some Republicans were saying, one quote in the Washington Post saying, well, let's give him a few days. He hasn't conceded yet, but what's the harm in letting him just rant and rave a little bit? Well, we know what the harm is. The harm is an assault on American democracy and insurrection at the U.S. Capitol. And now he's suggesting he wants to go even further. But is there anything outside of the usual voices of Kinzinger, Cheney and Romney? Is there anything that gives you any hope that this time will be different for any

other Republican? I don't have hope that it will be different because we're now several days since he wrote it and we've not seen the kind of uproar from the Republican leadership that we should have seen. But let's be real clear. Many of us, I personally have known Donald Trump for years and have felt that he was on the wrong side and we fought and at times even marched on him, disagreed with him and all. But he's become unhinged. He is only going to get worse. His megalomania and narcissism has become deadly in terms of what he's encouraged. This is way over the top.

And I think that it will only get worse unless he stopped. I mean, for him to within the same week, the founders of the Oath Keepers are convicted to call for the Constitution to be set aside is a guy that's not even putting caution in his own way. He is outright advocating. I'm with this. I'm going to overthrow this government. And I dare you to stop me. And that dare goes to the leaders of the Republican Party, not by people like me, but by Donald Trump. And I would just do one tweak. He hasn't become. This is who he is. This is who he's always been. And it took everybody and, you know, ourselves included to really realize how bad this was. We realized early on in his presidency, but it was too damn late. Are we going to do this again?

The question is for Republican leaders. Are you going to face that this is who he is or are you going to continue to walk with him? Because you right now stand between possibly our country and our democracy becoming irreparably damaged or not? Do you stand up for democracy, Katty K? The question should be asked to every Republican every minute of every day by every reporter that can get in the presence of a Republican leader, because these people have a chance to lead and, quite frankly, guide their supporters on the importance of the Constitution, on the very framework of this democracy that got them elected. And sometimes there is leading that needs to be done. And the

question is, will they? They seem so weak and simple minded and quite frankly, as if their brain has been washed by Donald Trump. I mean, if you want to look at a picture of Republican awkwardness this weekend, you only had to look at all the Sunday shows and you played some of those clips. There was also Republican Congressman David Joyce being interviewed by George Stephanopoulos. And he was repeatedly asked, you know, are you really going to say that you would support a candidate who is in favor of doing away with the U.S. Constitution? In the end, all the congressman could say was, well, you know, he says a lot of things. I mean, they are they are now pushed into a corner with this one. But I wonder whether there isn't something of desperation about Donald

Trump on this and whether actually what's, you know, he's looking at the recent polls that have Ron DeSantis ahead of him on a one-on-one matchup in the primaries, have Ron DeSantis, you know, beating Trump, have Ron DeSantis beating Biden even in polls that are coming out. And I can imagine that this is causing Trump an awful lot of consternation. And he tried that moderated rollout and, you know, tepid kind of low energy rollout of his campaign announcement. And it didn't get him very far. And it got him a lot of criticism from his base. And now is he just trying to do the opposite? Is he trying to kind of ramp up his extremism in order to get the base excited again? I don't know. I mean, you know, Charlie, you look at Republican politics. Does this smack to you what you're seeing from Trump as like, I don't know how to get people excited about my candidacy. I tried the normal guy thing

and that didn't work. And so now I'm going to do something completely crazy and extreme on the political spectrum and suggest throwing out the U.S. Constitution. I don't know. I'm just I'm looking at the polls and I'm looking at the way he's reacting. And there seems to be a correlation. Well, it certainly does feel completely unhinged. I mean, essentially what he's saying is, you know, damn right. I tried a coup and I want to do it again on Earth 2.0. This would be the occasion for leading Republicans to come out and not just simply answer questions from the media, but to give major speeches saying this crosses the line, sedition, the embrace of neo-Nazis

and Holocaust deniers, and then calling for the termination of the Constitution. This seems to be the ultimate bright line. Of course, January 6th should have been the ultimate bright line. The big lie should have been the ultimate bright line. The the the extortion of Ukraine should have been the bright line. But this seems unambiguous. And so the question is, will they do all of this? And I don't know. They've had many chances to take an off ramp. But you could certainly imagine someone like a Mike Pence, Mitch McConnell, you know, coming out and saying that, look, we are all Americans.

We are all conservatives. We are Republicans who believe in the rule of law and the Constitution. And this is just too far. We cannot allow this to happen. But, yeah, Donald Trump does seem to be throwing stuff up against the wall. And but, you know, and again, you know, I want to just emphasize that this this is extremely dangerous that he's doing this. But it is also dangerous if Republicans stay silent and by their silence, acquiesce and normalize this kind of thought, because what we've seen is the way these crazy ideas become normalized and accepted in the mainstream. If Republicans do not take the off ramp, if they do not push back against this, in some ways, this is just as dangerous as Donald Trump's tweet, because they will be accepting the fact that, oh, yes, talking about throwing

out the Constitution and having an actual coup is just well, that's just politics these days. That's just the way things are. And that's going to be very difficult to unwind. Jonathan Lemire, I'm not surprised at all that Donald Trump said something like this. And you almost saw it coming. It was like, how far can he go? How low can he go to get attention, to get the attention on him? He's so desperate for it. He is a fascist, a person with fascist tendencies. There's no argument here.

I'm not going to even waste my time with him. Don't care about him. I care about these Republicans. And my question is, is it naive to think that at this moment, it could be a moment where they could step up in defense of our democracy and actually turn this around for them and rid themselves of this cultist scourge on their party? It could be, but they've had those moments before and never took them. And they've passed them up. What's wrong with them? The most, of course, egregious example is after January 6th,

where for about two weeks, it looked like Trump was in the wilderness and that Kevin McCarthy went down to Florida, needed his support for his House speaker bid. And that began the reconciliation road for Donald Trump with the rest of the Republican Party. Yes, you'll hear probably from Mitch McConnell, who has taken himself as a person to condemn some of Trump's more outrageous statements. But we probably won't hear from, say, a Ron DeSantis, who could so easily. It's a political layup. You have an event this week and you condemn Trump's dinner with a Nazi and you condemn his efforts to terminate the Constitution. And that would be just a bright line to say that's too much.

We're not going to be as a Republican Party with that. But there's no sense of that coming. And it's for Trump. It's another effort to live in the past. And we shouldn't forget this was all spurred by this Twitter nonsense about Hunter Biden and how Trump can't let go of 2020. And that's what Republicans are nervous about, that he might doom them going forward. This is a very dangerous man. In other news, it is election eve in Georgia in the runoff race between Senator Raphael Warnock and his Republican challenger, Herschel Walker. And

nearly two million Georgians have already voted. The massive turnout already breaking multiple single day records. The early vote total is expected to continue to rise as absentee ballots come in. For now, the party balance favors the incumbent, Senator Warnock, with more than half of early voters being Democrats. According to GeorgiaVotes.com, more than 75,000 early voters did not cast a ballot in November. Either way, tomorrow's race will make history as Georgia's first senatorial election with two black major party candidates. Let's bring in political reporter for the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Greg Blustein.

Greg, give us a lay of the land in terms of where things stand now beyond what I've said and why this race still very much matters. I know, you know, in terms of the balance, the Dems have the number, but it would be good to get Georgia for Dems. Yeah, I mean, for your latter question first, this is still a consequential race, right? Senate control is not on the line anymore, but it's a 51st senator for Democrats. It gives them more leverage, more leeway, more insulation in case Joe Manchin or Kyrsten Sinema, two centrist senators, end up defecting on a key issue. Also, it allows Democrats to rip up the power sharing agreement in the controls, how Senate committees are staked

out. And of course, for Republicans, that seat puts them at 50-50 and puts them one seat closer, really on the cusp of taking over the U.S. Senate in case something happens. On your first question, where the lay of the land is in Georgia, look, Democrats are really optimistic. More than 1.8 million people have already voted, as you just said, and the balance is tilting in Democrats' favor. It's because a disproportionately a surge of turnout on Tuesday could end up tilting the balance in Herschel Walker's favor. Greg, one of the things that we keep highlighting is that you have over 75,000 people that have voted early voting in this runoff that did not vote in November. And I've talked to people on the ground, people on my radio show comes on all over Georgia in a syndicated radio show.

I get calls and I have offices of National Action Network there. And I'm hearing people saying that they're voting now because they did not think it was possible for Hershel Walker to win. And after seeing how close it was unexpectedly in their minds in November, they wanted to come out and make sure that they did not end up with Hershel Walker as their senator. Are you hearing any reason from your vantage point and from the paper you represent that people are giving? What motivated them to vote in the runoff when they didn't even vote in November in the general election? It's a great question. I

think there are a lot of voters who the November midterm was that wake up call. And some of them are Republican, right? Some of them thought that Brian Kemp, the governor of Georgia, would kind of pull Herschel Walker across the finish line. And others are Democrats who never thought that Senator Warnock would be dragged into a runoff. I can tell you that, you know, the Democrats were preparing for a potential runoff for a very long time. So this was no shock to them. Although on Herschel Walker's case, you know, there were some aides of his that were expecting him to outright win. And they were despondent at the fact that now we're in a four-week runoff where things are very unpredictable. We saw in January 21 how Senator Warnock and Senator John Ossoff both won that runoff, defying conventional history in Georgia and flip control of the

chamber. So you're seeing a burst of energy. And I think one of the things that has helped those newer voters get out to the polls was the Republican effort to restrict Saturday voting about 10 days ago. It really backfired and led to a turbocharged turnout for Democrats over the last week. So, Charlie Sykes, Greg makes the good point. There are stakes are still high for the Senate race, including committee chairs and leadership and things like that within the Senate if the Democrats get to 51. But of course, the majority is no longer up for grabs. So we just talked about how Republicans don't seem willing to cut ties with Donald Trump just yet. What's your assessment here? Are there some Republicans in the state of Georgia who sort of

held their nose and voted for Hershel Walker despite his obvious lack of qualifications in November because it could have met the majority? Now that the majority is not at stake, do we think some of those folks stay home and they want to turn the page? Well, look, in a year of many, many flawed candidates, is there anybody even remotely in Herschel Walker's league as being unqualified for the United States Senate? The only real rationalization for voting for Herschel Walker was the control of the United States Senate, you know, strict tribalism. So I think you have two things, at least what I can glean sitting up here in Wisconsin. Number one, you had a lot of voters that came out to vote for

other offices, including for Governor Brian Kemp, who may not turn out tomorrow. And you have others who would have voted for Herschel Walker if they thought that it was control of the United States Senate. But looking at Herschel Walker without control of the Senate being in play is perhaps a bridge too far to them. And virtually every day, Herschel Walker reminds voters, you know, how absurd and crazy it is to think that he should be in the United States Senate. That Saturday Night Live skit was hilarious because, in fact, it actually captures who he was. I thought President Obama's speech last week just highlighted the ultimate absurdity of Herschel Walker's candidacy. And again, the only reason we're even having this particular discussion is because Donald Trump decided to intervene in this.

And this was his hand-pecked celebrity MAGA candidate. And, of course, afterwards is going to be fallout. You know, how much losing do Republicans want to do with Donald Trump with the sedition, the crazy and the defeat? You know, Herschel Walker, Charlie, is unfit for the job and it's embarrassing. It seems a little racist and condescending in a million different ways. He is unmoored. He seems to have a lot of problems. But just intellectually, he's clearly not even remotely close to being up for the job, completely unfit.

But I would argue at this point that any Republican that can't say what Donald Trump said is wrong. And I stand up for American values and for our democracy and our Constitution. And I reject what Donald Trump said. And I reject the values and the comments that he is bringing to the table, and I reject him as a candidate. If they can't do that, they are equally as unfit as Herschel Walker. I mean, well, I agree with. Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with that, as you know.

But as Jonathan just pointed out a few minutes ago, Republicans have had this challenge and this opportunity many times in the past, and they have failed over and over and over again. So I agree that this is uniquely dangerous, but it feels naive to think that Republicans will suddenly recapture their conscience. Now, however, if they suffer another defeat, we've seen that Republicans do respond to losing elections. That may be the variable, but we are in a uniquely dangerous moment. Very really quick. And I think that, again, we cannot let Ron DeSantis off the hook here. No. You know, because that's what happened. That's how Donald Trump. Any Republican. We did not hold him accountable for his craziness leading in. We are allowing Ron DeSantis to have political laryngitis in the middle of an anti-Semite and Holocaust denial,

having dinner with Trump in DeSantis state. And he has not said anything. Now he's calling for the suspension of the Constitution from his state. Why are we allowed? Why are we talking about DeSantis could be Trump in the poll like there's some difference between the two? If there is a difference, DeSantis needs to come out today and say there's a difference. If not, we put him right over there with Trump. Charlie Sykes, thank you very much. Political reporter for the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Greg Blustein, thank you as well. A lot more still ahead on Morning Joe. The latest from Iran, where there is new confusion about the state of the country. So-called morality police following months of protests.

We'll get a live report on that. Plus, what minority leader Kevin McCarthy is saying about his fight to become the next House speaker. Also ahead, Paul Pelosi makes his first public appearance following a brutal attack inside his San Francisco home in October. And never before heard conversations with prisoner turned president of South Africa, Nelson Mandela. Rick Stengel joins us with a look at his brand new podcast. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. I get around here as a room. Windows won't roll for the crash years. There's no other show.

34 past the hour, a big story we're following out of Moore County, North Carolina, where authorities are cautioning residents to prepare for days without electricity after a targeted attack on substations left over 100000 residents in the dark. Authorities say someone drove up to the power stations on Saturday night and opened fire, resulting in a blackout that could last through the week. The FBI and state investigators have joined the inquiry to determine who was behind the attack. We will keep you posted on that. President Joe Biden welcomed some pop culture icons to the White House to celebrate the 45th annual Kennedy Center Honors. This year's honorees include Academy Award winner George Clooney, the Empress of Soul Gladys Knight, Christian pop star Amy Grant, composer Tanya Leone, and four members of the Irish rock supergroup U2. Also in attendance, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and her husband, Paul,

who was making his first public appearance following the attack that happened inside his home. He's still recovering from the injuries he sustained during the home invasion in San Francisco on October 28th and wore a hat to cover his bandages. But he was there speaking at the event. President Biden highlighted highlighted the theme of we the people and praised each honoree for their remarkable work and impact they have had on the world. The U2 has spoken and sung about the unspeakable costs of hate and anger and division, the pain, the suffering, the denial of freedom, the senseless loss of life, and the inhumanity we inflict on one another as nations, as people, and in our own lives. All flowing from division that for all of us is visible, manifestations live first and

foremost in our hearts at a moment when there's too much hate, too much anger, too much division here in America and quite frankly around the world. We have to remember today as our song goes, we are one, but we're not the same. We get to carry each other. It's so good to see Paul Pelosi up and moving about. And Nancy says he's doing fine. They they're so strong. Coming up, Democrats campaigned on protecting democracy leading up to the midterm. So how are Americans feeling about the issue now? Weeks after Election Day, we'll have the latest polling on that.

Plus, newly elected chair of the House Democratic Caucus. Congresswoman Pete Aguilar will join the conversation. Morning Joe will be right back. Welcome back. 41 past the hour. After more than two months of protests across Iran, there's some confusion and skepticism this morning about possible changes to women's rights there. According to Iranian media, the country's attorney general said on Saturday that Iran had disbanded its so-called morality police and is considering altering the requirement that women cover their heads in public. This claim has not been officially confirmed by Iran's government. Nationwide protests were sparked in September by the death of 22-year-old Masa Amini, who died in a hospital three days after being taken into custody of Iran's morality police. Amini was originally detained over an alleged violation of the nation's conservative

dress code for women. According to human rights groups and The Washington Post, more than 400 people have been killed and more than 15,000 arrested in the country's crackdown on the demonstrations and protests that have followed. Iranian officials say 200 people have died in those protests, including security services. And there are many reports of women being abused and men while in custody. This is a disastrous situation in Iran. Joining us now, NBC News Tehran Bureau Chief Ali Arouzi. He's live in London for us. Ali, where does this go from here? How do we find out if there's any truth to what the

attorney general said versus what the government will live up to? Good morning, Mika. Well, yes, there is some confusion about what the attorney general said, but let me shed some light on it. What seems to be emerging is that they want to get rid of the physical presence of the morality police on the streets of Iran. And quite frankly, they haven't really been around since the death of Masa Amini, but they still want to enforce the hijab. So rather than having physical police arresting women on the streets and seeing these horrible scenes that we've seen all too often over the decades. They want to control it remotely by surveillance cameras,

facial recognition. So if a woman isn't wearing her hijab, then she would be fined or she wouldn't be allowed to go to a bank or lose some other social privileges. But the reason they're doing this, Mika, and this is the most important part, is because they simply can't enforce the hijab anymore. Since the death of Masa Amini, I would say about 60 percent of the women in Iran now walk around without a hijab. And if they're not in the middle of a protest or chanting anti-government slogans, then the police leave them alone. They don't want any problems. So the face of Tehran has changed. For the first time in decades, you're actually seeing women's hair on the streets. You're seeing graffiti

all over the wall, which the municipality then paint over the next day and then protesters put back on. So this is why they're doing it, because they simply can't enforce it. Even the airport where I came out of is a high security zone. Most of the women there were not only not wearing the headscarf, they weren't wearing the mandatory loose-fitting coat that doesn't reveal any of your figure. So they've basically gotten rid of that themselves because they just can't enforce it anymore.

It's a totally change. A lot of people ask me, you know, will a lot of this violence and protests in Iran bring about change? Well, it already has. Women have shed the headscarf and it would be very difficult to see how the government would enforce that again. But again, the trajectory of what's going to happen next is unclear. The government are saying that they want to have some sort of a review of the headscarf, but they're not going to get rid of it. It's a pillar of the Islamic Republic. And if they got rid of it, it would be a very slippery slope for them.

Ali, Cathy Kay here. I mean, if women by protesting and men as well have de facto changed that element of restriction, what they now seem to be asking for is something much more than the hijab. They're saying the hijab is just a symbol of the repression that they want to get rid of. They've called even for regime change in the country. I mean, does the—in a sense, if the government allows people not to wear headscarves, is it a slippery slope for them that they then have to start listening to all of these other cries for change as well? That's exactly the case. I mean, the hijab was just the tip of the iceberg. And you hear that now. People are saying, listen, we've gotten rid of the hijab ourselves and there's a lot more we need to sort out for ourselves. You know, women want absolutely equal rights with men, which they don't enjoy in Iran. A woman's testimony in court

is worth half of a man's. You know, women's rights are much less than those of men, and they want complete equality. And you just see the chasm between the ruling system and the people. The ruling system refused to even call these protests. They call them riots. And the protesters refused to call these riots. They call it a revolution. So the only two things they can agree on are that these are not protests. You know, the government wants to call these riots. They call it a revolution. So the only two things they can agree on, these are not protests. You know, the government wants to play it down and the people on the streets want to play it up. So they are miles apart from each other. And the hijab is just one of many things people want changed in Iran.

NBC's Alia Ruzi, thank you very much for your insight. Joining us from London this morning and joining us now here in New York, former undersecretary of state Rick Stengel. We have a lot to talk to you, Rick, about. It's good to see you again. Great to see you. Especially your new podcast with the lost tapes, as we call as you call it, with Nelson Mandela, your interviews with him. I want to talk to you about that in just a moment. But first, if we could start with Iran. I mean, if you really read deeply into what's happening there and try and get the most information, the situation is out of control. And there are horrendous reports of brutality happening to female protesters, male protesters in custody,

custody, let alone those who have died. Where does this go from here? It's hard to know. I mean, I commend the protesters. They're doing it at great risk to themselves. They certainly are. One of the things I've always thought was odd about Iran that people don't necessarily realize is that they have the most progressive group of citizens in the Middle East, much more than any of the Sunni nations, but the most repressive government. People there are progressive. Even I was there 10 years ago and women wore the hijab, but they let their hair show. They wore form fitting garments. I mean, it's a very progressive society. So the thing is, they will not be satisfied with some of the same kind of give ins that the government would do in other Sunni nations. I think they want kind of a

complete small-D democracy there. And by the way, I think it would actually work there. Right. I mean, it's sort of hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube. The younger generation has seen how the rest of the world looks. I know that they try and contain how much they see. But once you've seen freedom and a sense of, you know, how your life could be for these young people, I don't think they want to go back to living, you know, literally covered up. But where does it go in terms of how dangerous this gets for the society as a whole and then the global implications?

Yes. I mean, the danger is that I hesitate to even say this word, a kind of a civil war, because the Ayatollahs, the military forces that are allied with the government, they're not going to give in. And the people are very progressive. And so I don't know that there's some kind of compromise that that can really happen. Remember, we saw the Green Revolution in Tehran in 2008, which was the first time that people were on social media and kind of showing their protests. And that almost was a tipping point. We could have something like that again as well. So, Rick, let's turn our attention to Ukraine for a minute. We know the fighting has sort of slowed down as winter starts to set in, but U.S. officials offering a pretty optimistic assessment of where things stand right now,

believing Ukraine will be in a good position this spring to launch a real counteroffensive. This is interesting headlines out just this morning. Russian authorities say there have been two explosions at air bases deep within Russia that have killed some people, deeper than the Ukrainians seem to have weapons to hit. So what do we think is going on here? Kiev has hinted in recent days that they perhaps would have the ability to strike deeper into Russia. I know NATO and the West are a little nervous about this. They don't want the war to escalate too much more into Russia, as much as they are sympathetic to Ukraine wanting to hit back. Where do you think things stand? This could be a start

of a new chapter here. You know, it's a kind of shadow war, Jonathan. I mean, in the sense that the Russians have basically halted their main movements in Ukraine and are using drones and missiles to distract people from what is going on on the ground. I think the Ukrainians are responding in kind when they're launching attacks, which again, they haven't claimed, deep with inside Russia, then that puts Russia on the back foot and they don't know what to do. And the other thing is, remember, the Ukrainians have been brilliant at public relations. They want the Russians to start to understand there's sacrifices here, young boys, young women, that families are losing young men every day, 100,000 or more. They want Russians to understand that. And I think if public opinion starts to change in Russia, then the Russians

will have to really negotiate. All right. So let's talk about Mandela, the lost tapes, the reason you're here. You spent 70 hours interviewing the South African leader in 1993. So that's what, how many years ago? Wow. 30 years ago. So what, tell us about what we're going to hear in this podcast and why it's important to hear this now. So I was hired to work with Mandela on his autobiography. He had just been out of prison for a year or so. He'd been in prison for 27 years. I was hired by the American publisher. I was 36 years old. I didn't, I'd never actually met him before. And so, in fact, I spent many, much more time with him than 70 hours. I basically asked if I could hang around with him and be kind of his mascot. But we had a job to do, which was to create Long Walk to Freedom. And the reason why I think this is so important now is because of all.

Yeah, that's that's look how young you are. And that's that's Mandela holding my oldest son, Gabriel, whose middle name is Holeshla, which is Mandela's real first name. That's my younger boy, Anton, whose middle name is Madiba. How special. So the reason why I think it's so important now is because of everything you've been talking about on this show for the last six years, is that there's a democratic recession around the world. And he's one of the greatest democratic revolutionaries in history. He brought democracy to tens of millions of people who didn't have it. That was the focus of his entire life and this immense sacrifice. So it's a reminder that we have to sacrifice for democracy, not spend 27 years in prison like he did. But the fact is that it's something that has to be

achieved and has to be earned. At the same time, he is an icon, as the Reverend knows. And one of the things that that you hear in the tapes is you hear the man there. You hear him, you know, ask, why don't I have any sugar in my tea? Why he needs to have sugar in his tea. He spells out every word for me. You know, he'll go broccoli, two C's, one L. It's kind of fascinating. You get a real sense of what he's like as a person. And so I don't take him off a pedestal. He's still on the pedestal, but it's a human being on the pedestal, not a statue. Interesting. Rev, we're going to, I want you to take it next, but let's just play a little bit of his voice. The podcast featuring hours of rare recordings detailing the turning points of Mandela's life, key moments that

shaped a revolution and the man who helped bring freedom to his nation. Take a listen. If a man can challenge a law and go to jail and come out, that man is not likely to be intimidated. It was that simple and it was that profound. He saw wrong and tried to right it. And he did. I never heard him talk about God or heaven or the afterlife. He wanted justice. I don't want to take a break. He wanted justice in this lifetime. Now I had a revolver, which was unlicensed, and I just took it out and put it in between the seats. That's Nelson Mandela.

He's talking about the time he was driving down a hill with a gun and got stopped by the South African security police. And at one time, I thought I could open the door fast and roll down, but I didn't know how long, you know, this bank was and what was there. When that Ford V8 pulled in front of his car outside of Harikval, South Africa, on August 5th, 1962, Mandela knew instantly what had happened. He was caught. Rick, you know, with these tapes coming out, as you know, I was around Mandela maybe seven, eight times. We were with him a couple of times together. That's right.

But there was always a sense of he was a great man and there was like a presence about him. But he was not pretentious. It wasn't like he was trying to prove himself to anyone. He was just Nelson Mandela. And you just saw him as that. Does any of that come out in the tape? Because I remember when he came to speak at the U.N. to tell them to lift the sanctions on South Africa. And he met with some of these civil rights leaders. And he was as regular as he could be, but he was still regal. There was some mixture that you couldn't explain. Well, he was regal. He was raised by a royal family. He was the son of a chief. He was raised

by the king of the Tembu people. And he was also, as you know, a magnificent man physically. He was six foot two. He was handsome. He had been a boxer. So he had that presence, which we've always associated with leadership throughout time. But he also had this incredibly even temperament and you couldn't ruffle him at all. And I think that was really achieved by all those years in prison. Prison was a kind of crucible that melted away any impurities in his character. In the in the lost tapes, you hear him talk about what he was like before he went to prison. You won't recognize that man. He said, I was radical. I used high flown language. I pushed people off of the podium. Well, that that young man went away during prison. And so that was one of the questions you hear me ask him over and over.

How did you change from 1962 when you were 42 years old to when you came out in 1991 at 72? And in the beginning, he resisted the question. He thought it was like a trick question. You know, a politician doesn't ever want to say they changed. And then one day in frustration, he said to me, I came out mature. And that word mature is so powerful for him. It means self-control. It means you don't fly off the handle. And he earned it through all those years in prison. Wow. Absolutely fascinating. Rick Stengel, thank you very much. Rick's new podcast, Mandela, The Lost Tapes, is now available exclusively on Audible. Thank you, Rick, for bringing it to us. And still ahead, New York Magazine's new reasons to love New York. We'll get a preview of the upcoming issue and find out what those reasons are.

I love New York. Plus, Elon Musk was named person of the year by Time magazine in 2021. We'll get a look at this year's shortlist ahead of the big reveal. Talk about that. Morning Joe will be right back.