Morning Joe - Morning Joe 1/25/24

Episode Date: January 25, 2024

Sen. Mitch McConnel considers splitting foreign aid, border security in national security package as GOP opposition grows

Trump defeated Nikki Haley 54 to 43. It is the very first time he's ever been happy to see a woman in her 40s. He won by 11 points. He beat Nikki Haley by double digits. He's also leading Nikki Haley by double digits in felony charges, 91 to 0. Trump cruised to victory, and just like most cruises, half the people parted while the other half felt really sick. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe on this Thursday, January 25th. We have a lot to get to this morning, including the red flags with Donald Trump's campaign coming out of New Hampshire.

New exit polls are exposing his weaknesses in a general election. It comes as the Haley campaign. What a shock, by the way. You mean he's weak in a general election? Who would have ever seen that in 2017, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 or 23? This is so shocking. Who could have ever seen this? It comes as the Haley campaign says it has seen a significant bump in donations since Tuesday's primary.

Look at the orange. Okay, well, we're going to go back. I think that's a really pretty dress. It is. It's a beautiful dress. Gorgeous. I do wonder about, you see, applying more makeup than he used to. It's caked on orange.

I don't know what's going on there. You know, it could be... I don't want to... I don't know. I don't think it would be right to talk about someone's appearance. I mean, it's not presidential. Dress and just orange. Exactly. I think I would probably,

if I were living in the glass house he's living in, probably just drop the rocks to my feet. OK. So we'll go through all of that. Plus, the latest. Wait, there's more.

The latest on Capitol Hill on the border deal, which includes urgent funding for Ukraine. We'll have new reporting on what Minority Leader Mitch McConnell is saying behind closed doors. And can I just say Ukrainians are dying every single day because of the House Republicans. Not because of like some bureaucratic snafu or, oh, we don't know who. Not because of Mitch McConnell, not because the Senate Republicans, but it is the House Republicans that are playing right into Vladimir Putin's hands and causing more Ukrainian

children to be killed. They don't care. That's the thing. They have a speaker that's been pro-Putin since the beginning of this war. Well, the very latest on that, also the second defamation trial against Donald Trump is expected to resume this morning in New York with possible testimony from the former president. How does he find the time? Along with Joe, Willie and me, we have the host of way too early, White House Bureau Chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, CEO of the Messina Group, Jim Messina. He served as White House Deputy Chief of Staff to President Obama and ran his 2012 reelection campaign. And also with us this morning, conservative attorney George Conway is with us.

So, Willie, yesterday, of course, if you went to any major news publication, if you went to Drudge, I mean, it was lit up with stories about how, here's a shock, breaking news, please stop everything. Donald Trump has weaknesses in the general election. I mean, it's crazy that that I mean, that's even a news story now. But we're going to talk about that in a second. But I want to talk about how remarkable it is that you have House Republicans, people that

are in the party that Ronald Reagan used to be a member of that are sitting by knowing they're causing Ukrainians to die, sitting by knowing they're standing in the way of Israeli funding. And they have from the beginning. You know, they tried some some trick. But, oh, well, this time Israeli aid. We never paid for any other aid, but we're going to have to pay for Israeli aid. That's what the speaker was saying about Israel. And then on the border, they're just out and out saying we're going to let fentanyl keep flooding across the border, killing Americans, even though we could stop it. We're going to let illegal immigrants keep flooding across the border, causing chaos for communities, chaos for cities like New York,

by uncontrolled immigration. Immigration's great. It's got to be controlled. We now have the Senate Republicans and the White House and the Senate Democrats with a deal, the toughest border deal ever, that would stop fentanyl from flooding across the border, stop it. They're saying saying no and they're admitting republicans are admitting house republicans no we don't want to fix this we don't want to fix

the fentanyl problem right now we don't want to fix the illegal immigrant party problem right now because joe biden might get a little bit of credit for that that's how sick they are they're saying keep the border open for another year. Yeah, they got as good a deal as they could ever hope for sitting right in front of them. It actually reminds you a little bit of 2016 when the entire chant was build that wall, build that wall. They love the immigration issue. They said there was a crisis at the border. And then Donald Trump gets elected. They control both houses of the Congress. For two years, they own Washington and do nothing. And there's no border wall.

But they like the issue. They like to bang the drum about it. Now they even have some of their own people, Republicans, saying we're there. We're at the 20 yard line. We're entering the red zone. This thing that we've said we've wanted for so long. And you won't take the deal. You won't take the deal. And now we're even hearing some rumblings. Jonathan Lemire inside the Senate that Mitch McConnell might be even hearing some rumblings, Jonathan Lemire, inside the Senate, that Mitch McConnell might be getting a little shaky on this and saying, well, the nominee, what he's calling Donald Trump inside this caucus meeting,

the nominee doesn't want us to do this deal. So the House has been the problem. Is it spreading to the Senate now? It sure looks that way. That analysis appears to be changing, that it's not just the House Republicans. And now it looks like it's going to be the Senate Republicans, too. Minority Leader McConnell, in a closed-door meeting with his colleagues yesterday, suddenly spoke very differently about this deal than he had in the past. We know McConnell has been very strong and adamant that the U.S. needs to support Ukraine.

He still is. But now he thinks these packages might need to be separate, which would doom the Ukraine funding because there wouldn't be enough support because the only way to get some Republicans to back Ukraine would be to have this border security deal. But McConnell is admitting that Trump is saying we don't want this deal. And he is suggesting, he says here, quote, the politics on this have changed. He says we don't want to do anything to undermine him, him being Trump, meaning we don't want to take an election issue away from Trump. And if McConnell suddenly goes soft on this deal, it is going to be doomed.

And it shows, again, the grip that Trump has on the party. And also Mitch McConnell, though he at times has spoken up strongly against Trump, he has acknowledged he will vote for him again. He did not follow through trying to convict Trump in his second impeachment trial post-January 6th. And now he seems to be doing his bidding for his campaign, even if it hurts the American people and submarines a deal that most people say they want. So, Joe, we might be going from a situation where you could have had both. You could have had immigration reform and support for Ukraine to having neither. And by the way, we should point out that Ukraine is almost out of ammunition and their leadership is crying from the mountaintops. Effectively, this war is now in the hands of the United States Congress. We can't win without the United States Congress doing something.

And that Congress is sitting on its hands right now. And the rest of the world is watching, understanding that House Republicans who have been pro Putin from the beginning with their votes, House Republicans from the party of Ronald Reagan are siding with a Russian KGB agent who invaded Ukraine. It is jim messina if you take a take a step back i just looking at this politically i i just i i do i i am baffled by just how stupid baffled baffled every day by how stupid republicans are baffled by the fact that the two biggest issues in America, the two biggest issues in New Hampshire, the two biggest issues in Iowa were what? Immigration and the economy. Donald Trump has said already to Lou Dobbs, he wants the economy to crash.

He wants there to be a Great Depression. He wants people's life savings just wiped out and destroyed so he can get reelected president. So that's the economy. Now let's talk about immigration. Republicans are saying this is the toughest border security bill we've ever gotten. But House Republicans are saying let's kill it. Donald Trump is saying let's kill it. Donald Trump is saying,

let's kill it. On the two most important issues, we have the solutions to the best that we've had in decades. And Donald Trump says no. And the House Republicans are going along and out the Senate. This is just this is a these are two campaign issues that Democrats should be able to absolutely trounce Republicans on. Oh, Joe, you're exactly right. I mean, how much longer do we need to say that the Republican Party is pro America? Like they're pro the Republican Party. This is some of the biggest political. They're pro Donald Trump. They're pro Donald Trump. They're not even pro Republican Party. These actions hurt the Republican Party. You're exactly right. Because if you're a House Republican or a Senate Republican, what exactly are you running

for reelection on in November? You have done nothing. You have done nothing on the two issues that define the day. On the economic issue, you fought Joe Biden for two years on all the things that, oh, by the way, have actually saved the American economy and helped towards this soft landing we may be having. And on immigration, you're exactly right. They've been campaigning on this for seven years. They couldn't get it done on their own. They have a deal in front of them that honestly is the best deal they are ever going to have.

This is a political layup and they can't even take this because Donald Trump called Mitch and said, oh, we can't do this because of the politics. At what point do you do what's best for your country? At what point do you do what's best for the people that you continue to lie to? Yeah. And at what point? At what point? When the Republican Party finally turns their back on Donald Trump. And again, let's be very clear here.

Donald Trump's two positions here are, one, keep the border open, because Donald Trump says keeping the border open for illegal immigrants and fentanyl is good for him, despite the fact that Donald Trump says, keep the border open, Mitch. Keep the border open, Mikey. And they're listening. That's number one. Number two is let the economy crash.

He has said it. Let the economy crash. It will be better for him. He wants your 401 s destroyed. He wants your retirement plans destroyed. He wants your stock market portfolio destroyed. He wants everything destroyed. He wants you out in the streets. He said he wants Joe Biden to be Herbert Hoover because the economy is doing so well. So again, very clear here. Forget about the fact that he stole nuclear secrets. Forget about the fact that a jury has found him guilty

of sexual abuse of a woman. Forget the fact that the judge in that same courtroom said Donald Trump raped that woman. Forget the illegal payoffs to porn stars. Forget all of it. If you're out there going, oh, they're just after Donald Trump, why can't we talk about policies?

All right, well, let's talk about the policies that the dictator wannabe wants to do. One, he has said he wants the economy to crash. He said it. There's crash. He said it. There's tape. He said it. Chinese religious websites, Chinese cults can't get in the way of the fact that he said that truth. Trump said, I want the economy to crash one.

And number two, he's made it very clear. He said, I want to keep the border open, open for fentanyl. Democrats, are you listening? You're running against a party whose two platforms this year are let the economy crash and keep the border open. Repeat after me. Trump wants and Republicans that you're running against are going along with Trump. They want to wreck the economy and they want to keep the border open. And yay, we overturned Roe. Does that? Oh, yeah. They want to they want to keep that right away.

Three and number four. Yeah, I mean, number four. They want to reelect a guy who wanted to destroy economy. Oh, and hey, wait, there's more, Mika. There's always more. They have promised they want to take away your health care. These are all things they said. These are all things.

This is nothing that primetime of MSNBC or the New York Times editorial page said. This is Donald Trump and Republicans. It's what they've said. Judge them by what they do. And yes, judge them when they confess. So despite Donald Trump's win in New Hampshire's Republican primary on Tuesday, exit polls suggests major problems ahead for Donald Trump if he advances to the general election. Now, according to analysis by Fox News, 35 percent of GOP primary voters in the Granite State say they won't vote for Trump if he is the party's nominee in November. Well, when a similar question was asked of Nikki Haley, voters in New Hampshire, 94 percent told CNN they would be dissatisfied if Trump wins the nomination. Among that same group, 83 percent said they would consider Trump unfit for office if he is convicted of a crime by Election Day.

Yeah, you know, it's it's crazy. I mean, he's talking about terminating abortion, terminating Roe v. Wade. The polls there showed that issue also weighed heavily on the minds of New Hampshire voters. And so there you have 66 percent. George Conway. So, you know, even before the Democratic Party gets it out, the truth out about how Donald Trump wants to wreck the economy and keep the borders open, you have these exit polls out of New Hampshire, about 14% of 33% went out to vote in Iowa because people were so uninspired by Donald Trump. Talk about what we all know, what was splashed all over Drudge yesterday, that Donald Trump just has a massive general election problem and he always will. Yeah, he absolutely does. And it's getting worse and worse because the Trumpian base is being stripped to its core and he's shedding people who actually want to do something that's right for the country. And it's becoming more and more apparent to people that Trump is a destructive force. And it's not just, as you described so well, Trump being this nihilistic force from above affecting legislators. There is that core base on the bottom that Trump has captured and that really

dovetails with Trump's attitude that we have to worry about. There was this article just the other day in Politico where Michael Cruz interviewed a GOP voter in New Hampshire who decided he was going to support Trump. And basically, this man didn't have any real, he didn't have any clear policy views, but what he wanted to do was to attack the elites that he feels resentful of and who he thinks look down upon him. And the way to do that is essentially to put Donald Trump in as a wrecking ball to destroy the country. And the voter was essentially asked, well, won't that hurt you? And the voter acknowledged, yeah, sure, it would. But, you know, it's worth it to them.

And those people are, you know, the core of the Republican base right now who support Trump. But other people don't want to be part of that anymore. They're sick of it. They're starting to see they're starting to understand what how bad it is. And those people are going to vote for anybody other than Donald Trump in the fall. Jim Messina, you have been consistently bullish about Joe Biden's chances in the general election. Once we got to a general election, a side by side, the country really dialed in and focused and watched Donald Trump. But we're starting to kind of see that. So as you look as a guy who's run successful presidential campaigns, just at the numbers,

the data that have come out of both Iowa and New Hampshire, which is to say that Donald Trump's support is deep, but not very wide, that independents just don't want to go down this road again, as George Conway is saying here. They're looking at Nikki Haley. They want some kind of alternative. They've said they're open even to voting for Joe Biden. One thing they know is they're not going to vote for Donald Trump in the general election. So what do you take away from the other side, from the Democratic side over these two primary contests, one caucus, one primary? Yeah, Willie, you and I and Joe and me have been talking for months about the Democratic bedwetters. Well, now you're seeing the Republican panic. I mean, if I was the Republican campaign

manager for Donald Trump today, I would be throwing up into a basket at my desk. And the reason why I say that is that you cannot have a third of your voters say that they won't vote for your guy in the general election if he's convicted of a crime, because guess what? He's going to be in one of these four cases, especially the Georgia one. So like that's going to happen. The other thing is he lost moderate voters by 53 points the other night to Nikki Haley. I mean, you just cannot do it. He lost college educated voters by 15 points. And so if you extrapolate that to the general election, to the six or seven states that are really going to decide this election, there are just warning signs all over the place about what

we have been saying for months, which is Donald Trump is a bad general election candidate. The Republicans have lost with him in 18. They've lost with him in 20. They've lost with him in 22. And they're in serious trouble again in 2024. And yet, Willie, they continue to double down and do whatever this wrecking ball of a political machine tells them to do.

And as much as the Biden campaign is shifting into general election mode, they certainly don't mind Nikki Haley still being out there. And she's pledging she'll stay to South Carolina Super Tuesday and beyond, taking it to Trump. And as we'll get to a little later in the show, she went harder at Trump last night than she has to any point in this campaign. And Joe and Mika, we see from the Biden campaign the message of democracy. We see the message of abortion rights. We see him going later today, heading to Wisconsin to talk about the infrastructure bill and the economic improvements. And he's basically going to live in those three states, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania. He got a good poll out of Pennsylvania earlier this week.

Some worries in Michigan, to be sure. Wisconsin's always tight. But especially as Georgia and Arizona this time around seem harder, this message here about independent and swing voters and how Trump is unfit for office, expect to hear that from the president day in, day out, particularly in that trio of Great Lakes states. And by the way, let me just say that, you know, you're so right. If everything goes as it's gone for decades. If Joe Biden wins Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania, it's over. Let me say, though, if Donald Trump keeps moving in this direction, you're going to see

not only Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania fall, and Georgia, and Arizona, and Nevada fall. If Donald Trump keeps going in this direction, add North Carolina to the Democratic lineup too. And you're going to see through Donald Trump, if this continues, you're going to see an expansion of Democrats' power in the electoral college.

Donald Trump, and just through a temper tantrum, he pitched a fit. He was insulting, he was doing what he does, but I know that's what he does when he's insecure. I know that's what he does when he is threatened, and he should feel threatened, without a doubt. It also goes back to why I've continued to push for mental competency tests for anyone over the age of 75.

And so he got upset and he said that he would take one and he'd challenge me to one and that he would beat me. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. But what I said is, okay, well, if that's the case, then get on a debate stage and let's go. Bring it, Donald. Show me what you got. So why is Donald Trump scared? He's petrified, actually, to get on a debate stage with a woman.

Because he looks down on women so much. I don't understand why you know if she's wait what did he say he's she's stupid she's this she's that if that's the case is it because he is old and because he he thinks he's old and he thinks that he's he's losing his mind he's afraid he's going to confuse her for nancy pel? Like, why is Trump scared to death of Nikki Haley? I think because Nikki Haley is right there just waiting to see what shoe drops, to see what happens. And so to an extent, what Nikki Haley represents is the last best hope for the Republican Party. If all of a sudden Donald Trump is taken off the stage because of his legal problems.

Well, I think that kind of like that's like right there in his head. Yeah. But but Willie, come on. He's scared. He's scared to debate because he doesn't think he just doesn't think he can. He I'm sure his campaign people are like, yeah, we let him out on a stage with in front of a teleprompter and he confuses Nikki Haley and Nancy Pelosi. Barack Obama thinks Barack Obama's president of the United States thinks he ran against him and be like they. So they're horrified of the prospects of Donald Trump on a debate stage with Nikki Haley because I guess they don't think he's mentally fit. Yeah. Think about when is the last time you saw Donald Trump have to perform on his feet, meaning take a question from a voter, debate someone, do something where he had to be prepared and to react to something. They don't put them in those situations anymore. It's not when you stand in front of an adoring crowd and vomit conspiracy theories

and confuse Nancy Pelosi and Nikki Haley, that's not acting on your feet. That's giving a speech. They don't want them in those scenarios. And it is a fair question. Why not go to Charleston, go to Columbia, go to South Carolina and have a debate with Nikki Haley? I also would point out, guys, that last night

may seem like a small distinction, but different from even what we saw in New Hampshire a couple of nights ago, Nikki Haley walked on the stage and started going after Donald Trump. Those comments were at the top of her speech where previously she's made a decision. They were a little apologetic, frankly, when even when we saw her in New Hampshire and they came very late in the speech. I served in his administration. I was proud to serve under him. But chaos seems to follow him. Now she walked on the stage, took the mic and went after Donald Trump. And we'll see. Fundraising has been there for her in the last 24 hours since that result in New Hampshire, where she came in second.

She raised a million dollars from 200,000. The campaign says separate donors in all 50 states, 95 percent of the donations, 200 bucks or less. So these are not the mega donors. The campaign also says Haley will be in New York early next week for several Wall Street fundraisers. That news clearly has gotten under the skin of Donald Trump, who is now threatening to blacklist all donors to Nikki Haley. Trump posting on social media, anyone making a contribution to Haley, quote, will be permanently barred from the MAGA camp. We don't want them and will not accept them because we put America first and always will. Haley, for her part, responded, writing, well, in that case, donate here. Let's go. And providing a link for her campaign's fundraising page.

So, George Conway, you do see fear in the eyes of Donald Trump in that speech, the most ungracious political speech we've ever seen, victory speech anyway, after winning New Hampshire, just grievance ridden and going after Nikki Haley again and again. And maybe he shouldn't be, but he appears afraid of her. just grievance ridden and going after Nikki Haley again and again. Maybe he shouldn't be, but he appears afraid of her. Oh, he absolutely is. And this is part and parcel of what I'd like to talk about, his his pathological narcissism and his sociopathy. People like Donald Trump know, know that they are not what they pretend to be.

He talks about being a stable genius because he knows he is neither stable or a genius. And he's been doing that for years. And he knows deep down that he's deteriorating under the pressure of the legal cases and and as a result of his advanced age. And kudos to to Nikki Haley for finally going after him in the way that he needs to go after him, the way that people need to go after him, including the Biden campaign in the fall. You need to needle him. It's not the campaign has to be much as much a psychological operation against Donald Trump's empty brain as it must be attempt an attempt to voters, because the two go hand in hand. You poke Trump and you make him behave crazily, and then you point out the crazy,

and then you point that out to the voters. And it's a cycle. And it's really important that she keep doing this. I don't think it's going to end. I think she's done it a little bit too late, but I think it's important that she do it. So, Jim Messina, you've certainly run presidential campaigns. Let's get your take as to what Nikki Haley actually needs to do here. She finished third in Iowa, second in New Hampshire, but still 11 points down. Did she beat polling expectations? Yes, but it was still a double digit defeat. And to be sure, New Hampshire exposed general election vulnerabilities for Donald Trump.

But here in the GOP primaries, it's certainly still his to lose. So what sort of shot do you give Haley? What should her game plan be for this next month or so? I don't give her much shot, Jonathan. And the reason I don't is because now we're going into places where there aren't independent and Democratic voters who are allowed to be in these primaries. We're going to go into solid Republican states where, you know, she's just getting crushed with these Republican voters. But, you know, she finally got what she wants, which is a one-on-one battle with Donald Trump. And I love her speech yesterday. It's Nikki Haley we should have seen two weeks ago in New Hampshire. And she's just going to try to get this. She's going to try to get him on a debate stage and go right after him and show his weakness. But she's got to find a way to move with Republican voters. And I just don't see how that's moving forward. I still believe we're headed

towards a Biden Trump showdown. And the Haley experiment is just a little bit of a sideshow. So, Willie, I've got to say, it may be a sideshow. I will tell you, though, if I were Donald Trump, the last thing I would want is a governor, a former governor of a state who is a former state legislator

who knows that state backwards and forwards and has 30 days to do what she did last night, campaign day by day by day by day, raise millions of dollars while she's campaigning day by day. Everybody's thinking this race is going to be a 75-25 race. What if it's a lot closer? Then where does she go? She goes to Michigan. Michigan, an electorate more cut out for. And I'll tell you what, there are people in Michigan that when they hear that Donald Trump wants the economy to crash, wants the borders to stay open, wants to cut people's health care, promises tax cuts for billionaires. And oh, yeah, you know, he he

is bragging about terminating Roe v. Wade again on the edges, even in a Republican primary. Those things are going to matter. Yeah, I mean, she's got a bunch of times. It's got a lot stacked against her. It's interesting that the former governor of the state where she's running is the underdog, a huge underdog in her home state. And as we were saying yesterday, almost save one, almost the entire South Carolina congressional delegation has rallied around Donald Trump. The governor of the state has rallied around Donald Trump. So she can kind of play this underdog role. And as George says, just needle Donald Trump. He gives you ammunition every day. I mean, guys, he was up last night in the middle of the night

posting 37 times about E. Jean Carroll ahead of being in court today. Yeah. Up in the middle of the night posting 37. And this is just going to go on like this, this all month and all through into the general election. So we'll see for Nikki Haley. But for Donald Trump trump it just keeps getting a little bit looser a little more unhinged i don't know if you're picking it up joe but

even people that we have talked about and talked to who stood by donald trump and there was something about that nancy pelosi nikki haley moment i keep hearing about that wasn't a slip of the tongue that was now people are finally going oof it's bad out there huh when they watch you know what it is really bad out there and again uh Nikki Haley the fact that the entire delegation's against them all the all the professional politicians are against them all the men in the state are against her what does that sound like That sounds like 2010 when she was a state legislator and everybody said she was going to lose and she ended up beating all of them.

That's what happened. Nikki Haley never runs a race where the establishment supports her, Mika. Yeah, I'm going to be careful here. But from Trump's point of view, the way he thinks it's all about appearances, you know how he picks his secretary of states and everything else. I like the way he looks. I don't know if I like his mustache. That's a sexy person. So I'm just saying right now, the optics are terrible for Donald Trump. Sweaty, sort of Rudy at the end kind of feeling to his look and crazy talk. And then you cut to Nikki Haley, who looks sharp, put together, clear in her message. And I'm just saying, I'm using his standards. Let's just face it. She's younger and doesn't look, I mean, he's not full Rudy. Oh no, I think he's Rudy at the end where

it's teetering to him. It's like, it You know, the bronzer? It's going over that way. We'll see, though. It hasn't started dripping down the side of his face yet. No, but George Conway, Willie talks about the fact that he's up, rage-tweeting throughout the night. He seems to be losing control more and more. And he's going up against Nikki Haley, somebody that, you know, a lot of people like.

She has a lot of crossover appeals. She could actually win a general election. And I am hearing from people. I had people last week call me up and rib me going, oh, Donald Trump. You're saying Donald Trump's losing his mind because you're trying to defend against Joe Biden attacks. I go, no, Donald Trump is, like, I've seen this. If this is not early onset of something, he's deeply unwell. And they mocked me and laughed.

And then two nights later, he confused Nikki Haley for Nancy Pelosi. And we're just going to have more and more of that. Do you think that's why they're they're. Do you think that's why Donald Trump is so scared of Nikki Haley and won't debate her? Yeah, I absolutely do think that. I mean, I think he knows deep down that his mental state isn't all that well, which is why he continual continually wants to talk about it, talk about this silly test where he says there was a whale when there was actually no whale on the test, that dementia test. And the two things that are going to beat him in the fall, and I don't think Nikki is going to be able to turn

this around for the reasons that we've previously discussed, but the things that are going to kill him in the fall are his mental condition and his misogyny. And both are really reflecting themselves right now. And on the misogyny, I mean, think about what this week entailed. I mean, if I were running a newspaper, the headline that I would have put on the newspaper yesterday would be adjudicated rapist wins New Hampshire primary calls female opponent bird brain. I mean, that's I mean, this is this is it's crazy. But this is and this is just shows how far and how disgraced the entire Republican Party has become. But at the end of the day it's gonna be gold for Joe

Biden in the fall yeah yeah and by the way add to that the fact that he mocked her dress and said it yeah his it probably wasn't very nice right but he mocked her dress and basically said wasn't that nice like as in wasn't that expensive right yeah good good luck with swing voters there making fun of a woman's dress. Exactly. Jim Messina, George Conway, thank you both so much for being on this morning. We'll see you again soon. Forces say a strike against the United Nations facility in southern Gaza

did not come from Israel's aerial forces or its artillery. A U.N. training center was hit yesterday, killing at least nine people and injuring dozens of others. The U.N. has not said who it believes is responsible for the attack, but claims the facility was hit by tank rounds, which are used only by Israel. Meanwhile, Israel has confirmed it is building a buffer zone inside of Gaza now, a move the Biden administration opposes. Because of concerns, it will deepen Palestinian fears that Israel intends to occupy Gaza. Joining us now, President Emeritus of the Council of Foreign Relations, Richard Haass. Richard, good morning. It's good to see you. We'll talk Giants draft a little bit later,

important matters like that. But let's talk about what's happening inside Israel right now. Hamas is claiming that the strike on that facility that killed some civilians came from Israel. Israel says not true, but it gets at the sort of broader crisis here, which is to say that it's only escalating and it's not clear that there's a solution that either side can live with. The reason it's not clear there's a solution is because there isn't. There has been. Yeah, well, there is. Solution is a big word, but there's ways of managing this.

But that would mean that both sides would have to change, and the Israelis in particular, would have to redefine what victory or success is. I think at some point you'll get the Israelis to cease major military operations. There'll be some type of a limited hostage release, which would be good. And then this new story is a big one. The idea that the Israelis are thinking of or going ahead with building a so-called buffer area inside, that's the key word, inside Gaza. Seems to me that's misguided. October 7th happened in part,

not simply because of what Hamas did, but it's because what the Israelis were unprepared for. So rebuilding Israel's ability, intelligence and defense-wise, to repel any future attack from Gaza, it's to me essential. But that does not require doing it inside Gaza, which will just inflame everything and raise the question, what's Israel's real design here?

Is it territorial expansion? Is it denial of a Palestinian entity and so forth? So this seems to me, militarily, whatever benefit you get, it's politically truly misguided. And the Biden administration has made clear they oppose this buffer situation because they don't want the Palestinians

to lose any territory in Gaza for exactly what you said, for fear of inflaming the local population, but also for stoking fears that Israel is going to come in for more permanent occupation. So let's talk about this part of it. This is yet another moment where Israel is defying what the United States wants.

And we know, we've reported on this show, how much President Biden has soured on Prime Minister Netanyahu, but he's still in charge, at least for now. What else can the U.S. do? And is it time, is it time that whatever funding deal does or get done, to start putting conditions on aid to Israel? You're right, first of all. This is another example where the United States is saying things and it's

being rebuffed. And it makes us look weak would be the generous word. It makes us look feckless. And quite honestly, as you go around the world, a lot of people who are sympathetic to Israel on October 7th, appreciative of American support, think that we've essentially lost the narrative. And we've been so unconditionally supportive that it's a mistake. There's only three things we can do, Jonathan. One is, as you suggest, tie some strings. Say, we won't give you this kind

of ordinance. You don't need these kind of large weapons. Or if we give them to you, you can't use them against these kinds of targets, that sort of thing. Or in this case, you'd say, you can't use any American aid to build a buffer zone inside of Palestinian territory. That'd be one thing. Secondly, in the United Nations, rather than abstaining or vetoing resolutions, why don't we maybe think about what is it we could put forward ourselves? What kind of resolution critical might we support? Most important, I think the president has to finally acknowledge that Bibi Netanyahu is not a partner. Bibi Netanyahu has an agenda that's all about Bibi Netanyahu. It's not even good for Israel, I would argue. Let's put that aside. But it's not good for the United States,

not good for this relationship. He has got to go over his head. President needs to give a speech to the Israeli people, essentially saying where you are, what needs to change in your short-term policy, what needs to change over the long term, how the United States is with you. But you've got to do things that are not only

in the interest of this relationship, in your own self-interest. And he's got to be sensitive. The Israelis are still not ready to talk about certain issues, given the trauma of October 7th. But the president has to start shaping the political context in Israel. Good news is Joe Biden is far more popular in Israel than Bibi Netanyahu. He has enormous opportunity here to shape the conversation and the context of what will ultimately be an Israeli election. Well, you know, Richard, the problem is that B. Netanyahu has done just about everything he can do to to blow the goodwill that not just the United States, but the world for the most part was giving to Israel. And we support Israel.

Like you said, Joe Biden has always supported Israel. But Bibi Netanyahu is the guy that, again, knew this attack was coming, had information on it for a year, had Qatar continue to fund, you know, they've given billions to Hamas. In September, said, yeah, keep giving them money. Knew he and Donald Trump knew where their illegal money was coming from

in 2018. They did nothing about it. And I've just got to say, enough is enough. You've said this. He needs to go over Netanyahu's head. He doesn't from from all reports. I hear he's had enough of Netanyahu. So the question is this. When? I guess. Well, let me ask this. Why wouldn't Joe Biden and the Biden administration come out strongly today and tell Benjamin Netanyahu enough? I think there's two reasons, Joe, but I agree with you, obviously, 100 percent here on what the president should do. One is the, you know, there's elements within the American political system, the Democrats who would not welcome that, even though parts of Joe Biden's base obviously would. The other is, I think, you know, we I think we underestimate this in politics.

The president is of a mindset, is of a generation where it's very hard for him to do that. It's very hard for him to distinguish between the prime minister of Israel and Israel, to take Israel on, even the prime minister on so directly, is very hard for Joe Biden if you look at his career. So I think he's just been reluctant. He has been reluctant to take Bibi on. But I'm with you. I think he's got to do it.

And it's got to be more in sorrow than in anger. It's got to be to sustain this relationship that's been so important for 75 years for Israel. And I think it's in Israel's own interest. At the end of the day, we've had a version of this conversation before. If Israel's going to remain a secure, prosperous, Jewish, democratic state, it actually needs to separate from the Palestinians. Not simply because the Palestinians deserve something as a favor to them, but as a favor to itself. I want Israel to be a permanent reality and I want it to be a permanent democratic Jewish state. In order to do that, it can't have five or six million Palestinians inside its borders. If

they're denied political rights, Israel's not a full democracy. If they're given full rights, Israel ceases to be a Jewish state. The only answer to Israel's dilemma, to its future, is to also work with the Palestinians on solving their dilemma. That's the conversation, I believe, the president of the United States needs to have with the people of Israel. Well, Richard, the last president of the United States and a lot of Arab nations believed, hey, we can negotiate peace and just pretend the Palestinians don't exist. We can just shove them to the side because as they what they said, the Arab states can't stand the Palestinians.

They want nothing to do with them. So they did their deal. It blew up in everybody's face on October the 7th. And just the question is this. Again, the White House knows that right now, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the UAE, Jordan, other Middle East countries are ready to stand in line with the United States to help rebuild the future for Gaza without Hamas. And certainly without Israel occupying Gaza, because that didn't work for him last time. But that's not going to last forever.

I've had I've had Middle East leaders tell me, you know, we can't wait forever at some point. And that point is coming soon. We're going to have to walk away from this if Netanyahu keeps doing what he's doing. As far as this attack that killed nine people, nine UN people. Israel said he didn't do it. Well, it was tank shells. And according to The New York Times and and others, you know, the only the only fighters that have tank shells are Israeli. So we're going to continue this drip, drip, drip of terrible news coming out of Gaza is going to continue and it's going to continue to undermine not only that in Yahoo, but the United States. Entirely. It's really telling, Joe. The Saudis, when they

originally, what, six, eight, nine months ago, thought about normalizing with Israel, they didn't establish as a precondition anything big with the Palestinians. We inserted that because that was the only way to get Senate Democrats to vote for the security treaty the Saudis wanted as part of the deal. But since October 7th, the politics in Saudi Arabia have changed. They are now requiring that there be significant movement in the direction of a Palestinian state. They are the ones who are moving hard and saying we're not going to write a check to rebuild Gaza without an enduring open-ended ceasefire or something close to it. This just shows that what you said, that the situation in the Arab world has changed. So Israel has the opportunity here to make peace, to normalize formally with the most important

country in the Islamic world, Saudi Arabia's leader is the custodian of the two holy mosques. You've got this country that's one of the most important and the wealthiest in the Arab world. This is a major opportunity. So there's a choice to be had there. And you're right. It doesn't necessarily stay forever. Does Israel want a greater peace or does Israel want a greater Israel? That's a fundamental fork in the road. And again, I think the president of the United States has to frame it that way. The Saudis have given him something to work with. He ought to run with it. Let me ask you to hop over to Ukraine, Richard. We've been talking this morning about what's going on in the Congress with this border deal, border money tied to Ukraine aid. That's

become a mess now, not just in the House, but in the Senate, according to a lot of the reporting this morning. Meanwhile, we're hearing from leadership in Ukraine who said just now explicitly the future of this war is in the hands of the United States Congress. We can't win without you. So please do something. How dire is the situation now in Ukraine and how dire would it be if it goes on like this without funding from the United States? Dire is the word. And look, I don't think it was in the cards for Ukraine to roll back the Russians. But to me, the definition of victory, at least in the short run, was that Ukraine would continue to exist

as a sovereign entity in charge of roughly 80% of its territory. Hopefully over time, it would get back Crimea in the east. But we want Ukraine to be a functioning, safe democracy with greater ties to the EU, potentially security ties to us and NATO.

We do not want that to be at stake. After the last two years, that's the great accomplishment. And what Congress is putting in jeopardy is that fundamental accomplishment. We're not talking anymore about Ukraine rolling back Russia. We're talking about Ukraine continuing to exist. So the stakes have gone up fundamentally. And this is this is this is about as again, fundamental as you get about the nature of the world, about European security, about the word of the United States. So what Congress is doing is putting that at stake. Why? Because they don't want to give the president a political victory on the border because they think that would be bad for them politically. Talk about not putting country before party.

They call themselves patriots. This is a time to be patriotic. What's going on in the Congress, in the House? That's not patriotic. Giving Putin exactly what he wants, a withdrawal of the United States. And quickly, also, Richard, Sweden now on the doorstep of NATO membership. Got Turkey's vote. Needs one more vote, and that is Hungary. The vote has to be unanimous. Will they get there? For a price, potentially. But look, Orban's playing a very different game. And he's been difficult on all these issues. I was actually, quite honestly, so much surprised that Turkey came along. The way price is there, obviously, F-16s, we know aircraft are going to do that. So the issue is, what is Orban's price? It'll

be a difficult pill to swallow, given who and what he is, but we may have to do it. Can I ask, Richard, why is Orban? I mean, I don't know why Hungary's still in the EU. Why is Orban still a member of NATO? I ask that of Turkey from time to time, but we know why Turkey's still in NATO. They are geographically so extraordinarily important. Why Hungary's not important. They're pro-Russian. They're illiberal. They hate Western democracy and have said it. Why don't we kick them out of NATO? That's one problem, Joe. When people were drafting the NATO treaty back when, they forgot to put in a clause for kicking people out. So countries like Turkey and Hungary can stay in there with impunity.

There literally is not a mechanism to boot somebody out. Is there a mechanism to take away their vote? That I don't know. I've never heard that. But the question is what I would say is if you have to, you work around it. You give countries de facto, you give them 99 percent of the substance of membership, perhaps without the packaging. And you just do that. Richard Haass, as always, thank you very much.