Morning Joe - Morning Joe 12/7/22

Episode Date: December 7, 2022

Democratic Sen. Warnock defeats Republican Walker in Georgia runoff

A hard-fought campaign, or should I say campaigns? It is my honor to utter the four most powerful words ever spoken in a democracy. The people have spoken. The 118th United States Congress is now complete. Incumbent Senator Raphael Warnock reelected, giving Democrats an outright Senate majority, 51 seats and doing away with the power sharing agreement between the two parties. Steve Kornacki is standing by at the big board for how the vote played out. And we'll discuss what this means for the state of the Republican Party, what it means for Congress, what it tells us about the state of Georgia and Donald Trump's influence on U.S. politics. We're also following the latest legal drama involving the former president. The Trump organization found guilty of criminal tax

fraud. The DOJ's special counsel investigating the 2020 election, subpoenas local officials in key swing states seeking information on Trump and his failed campaign. And the House Select Committee investigating January 6th could soon be moving forward with criminal referrals. Wow. A bad day for Trump, a good day for democracy, I guess, and an incredible speech by Herschel Walker. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It's Wednesday, December 7th. With us, we have former aide to the George W. Bush White House and State Department, Elise Jordan, back with us. She's an MSNBC political analyst, member of the New York Times editorial board. Mara Gay joins us and the host of Way Too Early, White House peer chief at

Politico, Jonathan Lemire. Willie, he doesn't stop. Lemire, he just doesn't stop. But at least but there's so much news. What an incredible night. An incredible night in Georgia. It's the race we've been talking about for more than a year. And we have a decision after one competitive primary, two general elections, two runoffs. Senator Raphael Warnock has won a full six-year term in the United States Senate. The incumbent Democrat beat Republican challenger Herschel Walker for that last Senate seat of the midterm cycle. With 99 percent of the vote in this morning, Warnock holds an advantage of nearly 100,000 votes. Warnock's win gives Democrats that crucial 51st seat after two years of an evenly split Senate. Senator Warnock's win gives Democrats that crucial 51st seat after two years of an evenly split Senate.

Senator Warnock thanked supporters in a speech last night. Let's celebrate for a little while on this mountain. Let's dance because we deserve it. But tomorrow we go back down into the valley to do the work. I can hear my dad of blessed memory say, Get up, get dressed, put your shoes on. Get ready. Are you ready, Georgia?

I'm ready. To stand up for workers, to stand up for women, to stand up for our children. I'm ready to build a stronger Georgia. Herschel, Walker's loss, a major blow to former President Trump, who first recruited the former football star to run for that seat. Republican strategists say Trump may even have hurt Walker's chances by refusing to wait until after the runoff to announce his presidential bid. Walker gave what essentially was a concession speech after the race was called last night.

I want to say that I want to thank all of you as well, because we've had a tough journey, have we not? But one of the things I said is when they called the race, I said the numbers don't look like they're going to add up. But one of the things I want to tell all of you is you never stop dreaming. I don't want any of you to stop dreaming. I don't want

any of you to stop believing in America. I want you to believe in America and continue to believe in the Constitution and believe in our elected officials most of all. So I want to thank all of you as well, because there's no excuses in life. And I'm not going to make any excuses now because we put up one heck of a fight. And I said, that's what that's what we got to do, because this is much bigger. This is much bigger than Hershel Walker.

Walker's victory, excuse me, Warnock's victory means every Senate incumbent won reelection in this year's midterms and Democrats bucking historical trends, inflation, everything else actually pick up a seat in the Senate. Did you hear that speech? I mean, believing in America, believing in the Constitution, it's as if I mean, I have to say it was good, number one, and probably the best speech he's given unless I've missed something. And it was a little bit of a pushback to Donald Trump, who didn't show up for him in the end, who picked him and for his comments on the Constitution, at least. Well, where was Herschel Walker talking like this during the campaign? If he had spoken like this, he might have actually won over some of those independent, some of those moderate Republicans who were wary of his behavior.

Yeah. Joe, by the way, is probably back tomorrow. He's been fighting a horrible, horrible sinus infection and his ears are horrendous. The tinnitus. But but he did tweet. And here it is. Given the incoherences of his campaign speeches, I was struck by Herschel's moving concession speech. It was beautiful in its simplicity. No excuses. Walker showed grace and reaffirmed basic American values our politicians need to show victory and defeat. And that is especially true at this time of election denying. So but let's let's talk about the race as a whole. This was incredible. This runoff election, Willie. Yeah, let's go right over to Steve

Kornacki to see how Senator Warnock did it. He's, of course, NBC News national political correspondent. Steve, a lot to look at here. You can look at some of those rural counties, but also certainly the Atlanta suburbs decisive for Senator Warnock. I think that's the headline here in terms of how did he and he's going to end up winning this thing. Warnock is by nearly three points. Remember, in the preliminary back in November, Warnock finished in first ahead of Walker. The margin back then was a little under one point. So Warnock expands his margin over Walker to nearly three points in the runoff. The biggest single reason for it is this sort of blue blob of counties you see right here in and around Atlanta, the immediate Atlanta metro area.

And it's the core Democratic area. It's the core population center for the state. And it's also a place here, county after county, where Warnock had done really well in November. Because remember, in November, Republicans had a good night in Georgia overall. Brian Kemp, the Republican governor, easily reelected over Stacey Abrams. Brad Raffensperger, the secretary of state, easily reelected. Republicans were winning statewide races in Georgia in November. This is the exception for them back in November, the Senate race, where Walker finished second. So back in November, one of the things that powered Warnock was a place like Gwinnett County.

This is one of the fastest growing counties in Georgia. There's now nearly a million people here. And just take a look. The number that Warnock got, this is what you're seeing here on the right. This is back in November. Warnock got nearly 59 percent here. That was a fantastic number for Warnock out of Gwinnett County back in November. He jumped it up to 62 percent last night. Herschel Walker, meanwhile, fell from 38.6 to 37.9. Those are the kinds of differences that make all the difference in an election like this. And you saw it throughout the Atlanta metro area. You take a look at Cobb County, another biggie. Warnock's campaign was thrilled with the 56.8 they got in November. They built that nearly three points to 59.5 percent last night.

So he's in one county after another in the immediate Atlanta metro area. Warnock actually met his November number and then built on it. And Walker, in most cases, actually slid back a little from what he got. So that's the single biggest ingredient. And if you zoom out, the bigger picture on this in terms of Georgia, why we now talk about Georgia as a competitive state politically, Joe Biden carrying it in 2020. We expect to very much be on the map of competitive states in 2024. Has everything to do with this Atlanta metro area. It was so striking to me.

If you went back in time 10 years, 20 years, say like the 2004 presidential campaign when George W. Bush got reelected over John Kerry, this same set of counties here. This would have been a red county. This would have been a red county. This would have been a red county. This would have been a red county. This would have been a red county. This would have been a red county. This would have been red. And this would have been red. There would have been three blue counties in the Atlanta metro area.

George W. Bush was winning some of these counties by 25, 30, 35 points. They have now swung all the way around where Warnock's winning them last night by 20, 25, 30 points. You've seen massive population growth in migration to the Atlanta metro area. These counties have gotten bigger. They have gotten that massively bluer. It's the biggest single reason why Warnock wins last night, why Georgia's a competitive state. And the second biggest reason is if you get outside this immediate Atlanta metro area, you still have some biggies sort of in the exurbs, the far suburbs of Atlanta, none bigger than Cherokee County here, about 45 minutes north of Atlanta. This is the

biggest single Republican vote producing county in Georgia, one of the biggest Republican vote producing counties of any county in the United States of America. Herschel Walker last night got 69 percent here. He needed more than that. He had gotten about 67 and a half back in November. This is what a Republican win in Georgia looks like. This is Brian Kemp's number in the governor's race in Cherokee County back in November. He got out 74% of the vote. He won the county by almost 50 points. That's the kind of margin if you're a Republican trying to win in Georgia. You're not getting it in the immediate Atlanta metro area anymore. You got to go to that next level of exurbs there. You need it in a place like Cherokee County. Brian Kemp got it in November. He won the state easily. Look at how far behind Kemp Walker ran

back in November in Cherokee County. And so one of his challenges last night was to really drive that number up well over 70 percent. He barely hit 69% in Cherokee County. And it was just one county after another, this sort of next tier, next level of counties outside the immediate Atlanta metro area. There's still a lot, there's high populations and I'm not quite as high, but there's high populations. There's still a lot of Republican voters and Walker lagged in November behind Brian Kemp, behind the rest of the Republican ticket. The question for his campaign coming into yesterday was, OK, he had Kemp campaigning for him. He had it seem like more of a unified party behind him.

Could he get those voters who voted Republican in November but hadn't voted for him in November? Could he get him to the polls and could he get him to check his name off this time? And really, the answer to that is it looks like a few did. But mostly the answer to that is no. He didn't get the kind of gains, the kind of growth he needed in that next level. And so that one to punch right there, we're not driving up the score in the core Democratic areas that are getting more and more blue. I mean, this is a trend election after election. This is a long term significant trend in Georgia.

And then Walker just missing his targets in one big Republican county after another. We could find some rural counties on the map here where Walker actually had some good news last night. Some of those were the earliest reporting counties last night. But after that, the news was pretty uniformly bad for Walker. And it does result in a victory here of nearly three points for Raphael Warnock. Put that in some perspective. When's the last time a Democrat won a U.S. Senate race in Georgia by more than two points? Well, you could say 2000. There was a special election that year.

Zell Miller, a very conservative Democrat who would later be the keynote speech at the Democratic Convention. He won a special election. It was officially nonpartisan. If you take that one out, you got to go all the way back to 1990. Wow. Sam Nunn got reelected in 1990 in a very different Georgia on a very different map. So that's a bit of a breakthrough just in terms of margin there for Democrats to win by nearly three in a Senate race. That's so fascinating. Just to see the history of the Atlanta suburbs and to see where we are now. It is interesting to note, though, Steve, that Raphael Warnock, Senator Warnock, is the only Democrat who won statewide in this election.

In fact, Republicans won pretty comfortably. You mentioned Governor Kemp. But if you go up and down some of those races. So I guess the question is, is this a story about a good candidate in Senator Warnock, a terrible candidate in Herschel Walker? Or is it really about a state that has started to make a turn? It's about a couple. I think there's a combination of factors right there. I mean, the changing demographics in the Atlanta area and in the state made this possible. It made it possible for Warnock, I think, to capitalize on this situation. But the type of voter, again, if you just call up here, let's see if this will get the governor's race, if I can call. Yeah,

here you go. I mean, so this is the result last night. This is the result in the preliminary. And this is the result in the governor's race that you're talking about. And yeah, Brian Kemp easily won the governor's race. So that turnout that existed, the electorate that existed in the November general election was overall a pretty Republican friendly electorate. I think in the exit poll back in November, Biden's approval rating in Georgia was just 41 percent. And so a Republican like Brian Kemp was able to capitalize on that. What did Kemp get that Walker didn't get? There's a certain type of voter disapproves of Biden, still is very skeptical of the Democratic Party. I think as Democratic Party's become more liberal, too, it probably hasn't helped with that voter. But that voter also does not like Donald Trump. That's it. And I think that's the

difference that you see. Those counties where you saw the biggest lag between Kemp and Walker, demographically, they were Republican counties, but they were Republican counties that had high concentrations of college graduates. And that's the wing sort of demographically of the Republican Party. There's this college, non-college divide among all voters, but it's also evident among Republican voters where Trump really excels with non-college voters, non-college white voters in particular. And the counties in Georgia that are Republican, but have high concentrations of voters with college degrees. That's where Kemp excelled. And that's where Walker really ran into trouble in November. And it's where Walker really failed to move the needle last night.

Well, Steve, that point you made about Trump and Biden is so interesting. If we pull back a little bit, there's a real negative Trump factor that pervaded the midterms. I mean, what does the Republican Party do with this? And Jonathan Lemire, you can go back to Steve. But the but the bigger kind of broader look at this is that Trump has brought them losses for election cycles at this point. And then the midterms, which historically go to the party in power. Wow. I mean, a massive loss for Trump Republicans. This was a time that everybody said Joe Biden was a weight on the party. Should he should even stand next to candidates? No, it was Trump who shouldn't stand next to the candidates. And yet he picked them.

He picked them. And except for, I think, J.D. Vance and correct me if I'm wrong here, Trump's picks lost Georgia, Arizona, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire. Am I missing anything? I mean, governor's races, the governor's races. I mean, Jonathan Lemire, the writing is on the wall. Yeah, the Republican Party gave the keys to Donald Trump a few years ago. And at least this cycle, he has repeatedly crashed the car. This he is. It was a number of handpicked choices that you just said who have gone down in defeat. We know in particular he's so toxic in Georgia. Even the Walker campaign, Walker, who was handpicked by Trump, the Walker campaign said, ah, we don't want you down here. Don't campaign for us here, because they knew

that would turn off voters. And now we have a moment where the legal pressure on Trump is only increasing, which we'll be talking about a little bit later here on the show. And Republicans have yet another chance to walk away from him. The question is, will they do so? So, Steve, let's also talk a little bit more about the remarkable accomplishment, Raphael Warnock. He was the first black man or woman to be elected senator from Georgia and now the first one to get a full term for Georgia. He is certainly considered a rising star in the Democratic Party, perhaps eyes on other offices down the road. Talk to us a little bit just how historic this accomplishment is here for him, but also just

underscore for us, if you will, how remarkable this cycle was for the Democrats, that they came into office with 50-50, barely pulling off the Georgia runoff last time to have that tie in the Senate. Now they even gained a seat. Yeah, they're going to end up losing nine in the House, single digit losses in the House. It goes from coming into this cycle, it was 222-213 in the House. For the Democrats coming out into the new Congress, it's going to be 222-213 for the Republicans. So the Democrats are going to lose the House, but they're not going to lose it by anywhere near the margin that I think most had been expecting. And then, yes, on the Senate side, they're going to go from that 50-50 tie where they nominally had control, thanks to Kamala Harris, the vice president, breaking the ties to now they're going to be at 51-49. And I think

what's especially significant, if you look kind of long term here on getting that 51st seat for Democrats, is play it out to 2024. I know it's still 2022. Sorry to get ahead of myself here. But in 2024, if you take a look at the Senate map, it is not a good one on paper for Democrats. They're going to have to defend seats in West Virginia, Donald Trump's best state in Ohio, in Montana. They've got some very exposed politically seats in the Senate in 2024. And so one thing that this victory in Georgia does for them, it's not much of a pad, but it does give them a bit of a pad, more of a pad now at 51 and at 50. And I think when you

start looking at that map in 2024, if you're a Democrat and you're trying to think about, can you hold on to the Senate in 2024? Having that 51st seat does offer you a few more possibilities than if you were stuck at 50-50 still. Wow. Steve Kornacki, as always, thank you very much for breaking it all down for us. The Washington Post editorial board has a new piece entitled Georgia is turning purple and should be a 2024 early primary state. It writes in part, quote, Former President Donald Trump saddled Republicans with this nominee, despite widespread warnings that Mr. Walker was unelectable. Mr. Trump deserves as much blame as anyone for his party's failure to win back the Senate.

Historical trends and the national environment should have made it easier. The runoff results add to the evidence that the peach state has turned purple. Georgia, with 11 million residents and 16 electoral votes, is becoming in American politics what Ohio and Florida used to be, a genuinely competitive battleground. A primary win in Georgia would send a signal that a candidate has broad appeal and ultimately that they would be a credible contender as a party standard bearer in the 2024 general election. It's so interesting because what Trump has done has maybe created this scenario. What do you think of the editorial mara gay? Because this, I feel, was more, as Steve pointed out, was more about Trump, even for people who were not for Joe Biden and traditionally would vote Republican. They just couldn't vote for this candidate. That's true. I think there's another story, and it's a good news story that we haven't

talked enough about, which, you know, we come on the show, we talk so much about the threats to democracy, and rightly so. in a really exciting way where a coalition, a multiracial coalition, for the first time since Reconstruction is making it possible to have competitive elections. And that is a really exciting thing. I mean, you have to go back to, you know, Raphael Warnock thinking about this in history. He's one of only 11 black senators that have ever served in the U.S. Senate. That began with Hiram Revels from Mississippi in 1870, who led a who fought in the Battle of Vicksburg. So you have to go back that far. And so I think when you think about Georgia, you have to also think about who was voting in this coalition. You have moderate white Republicans, moderate voters. You have conservatives who didn't like the Republican candidate. You have a third of the

electorate, black voters showing up in large numbers. And then you have in Raphael Warnock, somebody who shared a pulpit that Martin Luther King Jr. used to preach from. So, you know, overall, this is actually an exciting trend because, you know, democracy is still alive and well, and I think lives to fight another day. So the idea that we would focus on Georgia, I have to agree with my colleagues in D.C. It makes sense. It has to be underlined that link to history that

Raphael Warnock is the preacher at the same pulpit where Martin Luther King stood for so many years. And now he's the first black man or woman to serve a full term as a seat in the state of Georgia, a state of Lester Maddox and segregation and all the history that came before that. This is politically very important, but it's also an important day for history. We talked about Herschel Walker's speech, but I mean, watching Raphael Warnock in his victory speech, he's really come along, too. I mean, he's really found his voice. And what an incredible night. Still ahead on Morning Joe, a Manhattan jury finds the Trump organization guilty of tax crimes. We'll talk about the implications of yesterday's verdict, plus what we're learning about potential criminal referrals by the House Select Committee investigating January 6th.

And the latest from Ukraine, after Russia suffers a second day of drone strikes within the country's border. A lot more still ahead. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. A jury has found the Trump organization guilty on all charges in a 15 year tax fraud scheme that prosecutors said was orchestrated by top executives at the company. Jurors deliberated for about 11 hours over two days before finding the organization guilty on 17 counts, including scheme to defraud,

conspiracy, criminal tax fraud and falsifying business records. Former CFO Alan Weisselberg was indicted last year and pleaded guilty to 15 felony charges in August. He served as the prosecutor's star witness. Former President Donald Trump was not indicted in the case. He released a statement promising to appeal while stating that any and all tax fraud was Weisselberg's personal doing and had nothing to do with the Trump organization. The company faces roughly one1.6 million in fines. Sentencing is set for January 13th. Joining us now, lecturer in law at Columbia Law School, Caroline Polisi. She's a federal criminal defense attorney and former U.S. attorney, Barbara McQuaid.

She's an MSNBC legal analyst. Barbara, first of all, the fines, not a big deal. Does this have larger implications? Absolutely. You're right. One point six million dollars for an organization like the Trump organization is is probably something that isn't going to break the bank. But I do think it has a couple of other implications.

One is it does expose with a felony conviction against the organization. It exposes it to recall of loans. Oftentimes loans and other business deals have out clauses when there's a criminal matter involved in a case. So there's that practical implication. But I also think on a larger scale, there's some significant implications here. Even though Donald Trump himself was not a defendant, was not convicted, there was evidence in the case that he directly paid some of these benefits and that he approved others. And when the Trump organization is such a small business that has his name on it,

it really is very much the alter ego of Donald Trump. And so I think this accountability here is a very important step that brings to light the fact that Donald Trump's statement that he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue is not the case. He's not Teflon. He can't get away with anything. And maybe it emboldens other prosecutors. Except, Caroline, he avoids consequence here again. And I wonder how that's possible. And also, I'm confused. Does Weisselberg still work for the Trump organization? Well, Trump did avoid consequence here today. However, I do think it is sort of a canary in a coal mine situation for Trump. Those close to Trump, Ivanka, there was evidence Don Jr., those close to the family

received benefits of this sort of nature having to do with it. So I think Alvin Bragg is really going back to his office. I mean, he said last night on the beat with Ari that this was just the first chapter. He's ethically obligated not to speak about ongoing investigations, but that gets as good as it gets in terms of lawyer speak for. I think he has his eyes set on the individual. He got a lot of flack earlier this year when two of his top prosecutors resigned from the office because Cy Vance had intimated that he wanted to move forward with criminal indictments against Donald Trump in his individual capacity. They resigned when it seemed like Bragg didn't have the appetite to do so. There's this zombie theory going around the Manhattan DA's office. It just won't die in terms of they're taking another look at the Stormy Daniels hush money payments. There's a lot going on here. And it sounded like Bragg is

open to the possibility of moving forward with more criminal indictments potentially against Trump himself. So, Caroline, the defense sort of was that Allen Weisselberg was acting alone. He was like this lone wolf out. So he went rogue and got himself private school tuition for his grandkids and apartments and all this other stuff. And others have said, eh, this is the kind of stuff companies do. They give perks to executives. Does this go beyond Allen Weisselberg, though, to your point a minute ago? Could this extend the reach get further? It absolutely does. And Weisselberg walked a really fine line, even though he was a state witness. Right. He he testified for the prosecution. He basically said that this was an insulated scheme of his own.

Now, Trump organization pushed back on that, saying that, you know, how could that possibly be true? And prosecutors in their closing arguments actually said that Trump did sanction some of this conduct. Now, Bragg said last night sanctioning the conduct is different from actually moving forward with, you know, what you would need for a criminal indictment. However, I think it's very, very interesting that prosecutors brought up Trump in their closing arguments. Again, it portends perhaps their sort of thinking to the future. Can I ask, how do we think about the approach of the Manhattan DA's office in terms of its aggressiveness or not when you think about the way of the Manhattan DA's office in terms of its aggressiveness or not? When you think about the way that Trump and his organizations have been prosecuted in local offices across the country, where do they stack up?

How do we read the tea leaves? Yeah. So, I mean, this is this is a big deal in that it's a criminal case heretofore. We've really only seen civil implications for Trump organization, right? The New York attorney general, Tish James, has a sprawling investigation. I think this is going to put New Wind in her sails. As Barb noted, the $1.6 million drop in the bucket really to Trump org. It's in the civil investigation, Tish James's office, which by the way, was in coordination with the Manhattan district attorney here with this prosecution. That's where it could really hit where it hurts in terms of shutting down the Trump organization.

Then there's this. The House Select Committee investigating January 6th could soon be moving forward with criminal referrals. Speaking to reporters yesterday, Chairman Benny Thompson suggested the committee will call for criminal charges as the panel wraps up its work. We have not made a decision as to who, but we have made decisions that criminal referrals will happen. I wish I could tell you one, two, three, four, but all that's still being discussed. All right, Barbara McQuaid, just break it down for us. I mean, who and who possibly could they be talking about? Well, until they actually announce it, I suppose it's hard to know.

And I think they have to reach consensus. It isn't necessarily what we all saw to be true. It is what they will agree to refer over. And those are two different things. But it's hard to imagine that that list will not include Donald Trump. We heard Liz Cheney give a summation where she talked about evidence that Donald Trump and others and his close associates engaged in conspiracy to defraud the United States and obstruction of an official proceeding. Even if they don't have evidence that connects Donald Trump to the actual physical attack on the Capitol, those two crimes can be proved simply by the pressure that was applied on Mike Pence to try to delay and subvert the counting of the election on January 6th. So I'd be really surprised if his name is not on the

list. I think it could also include others who are assisting in that plot, like John Eastman and Jeffrey Clark. But of course, it remains to be seen. Now, it's largely symbolic. The Justice Department is going to do what it wants to do. But I do think it's important that symbolically this committee does give that referral to send the message to the country that this is what we found. And I think that's important for accountability purposes. John, you literally wrote the book on this is what we found. And I think that's important for accountability purposes. John, you literally wrote the book on this, The Big Lie, about everything that happened around January 6th and these hearings. And as Barb said, and Benny Thompson has said himself,

they don't have the power to obviously prosecute criminally, but they can say, here are volumes and volumes of evidence. Here's all this testimony. Here's everything we know about it. Run with it, justice. Yeah, and they've really created a roadmap for the Department of Justice. Now, DOJ's got its own investigation going, too, but there have been moments where it felt like they've been taking their cues from the January 6th committee, a committee that has uncovered, despite what we

all thought we knew about January 6th, they have uncovered new evidence, uncovered new witnesses, uncovered new testimony, and there's a reason to believe they'll have more new material in that House report as well. Caroline, let me ask you, though, this is only part of these criminal referrals could certainly be about what happened in the days leading up to January 6th and January 6th of the day. But couldn't they also be about things that has happened since then during the investigation? Trump officials, Secret Service agents committing perjury or the like? Absolutely. There is a huge focus about what went on. I remember Cassidy Hutchinson's bombshell testimony. We all remember about what she testified about, what happened that

day in the van. But I would just note that I think that Barb's absolutely right. Merrick Garland, Jack Smith, they don't need criminal referrals to do their job. But as you're right, there has been a lot of daylight between the committee and DOJ. And DOJ has made it clear that they want the information from the committee. They want the transcripts. They want the information because they are sort of taking their cues, which is sort of different from what one might have expected. So we'll see. And then there's the documents. I mean, there's so many different. My God. Federal criminal defense attorney Caroline Polisi and former U.S. attorney and MSNBC legal analyst Barbara McQuaid. Thank you both very much for coming on this morning. Appreciate it. And coming up, we're looking back on a date which will live in infamy. Presidential historian John

Meacham and retired Navy Admiral James Stavridis will join us to mark the 81st anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbor that launched the United States into World War II. Plus, the latest on the current war in Eastern Europe after a second day of Ukrainian attacks inside Russia. Morning Joe will be right back. December 7th, 1941, a date which will live in infamy. The United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan. I ask that the Congress declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by Japan on Sunday, December 7th, 1941. A state of war has existed between the United States and the Japanese Empire.

President Franklin Delano Roosevelt making the address following Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor 81 years ago today. Joining us now, presidential historian John Meacham and retired four-star Navy Admiral James Stavridis. He's NBC News and MSNBC chief international analyst and former Supreme Allied commander of NATO. Good morning to you both, gentlemen. John, as I watched that speech, boy, there's so much to say. You always use the term hinge days, a hinge day of history. And December 7th, 1941, of course, was one of the highest on that list. I'm also reminded of your book, Franklin and Winston,

where Winston Churchill spent years writing love letters to FDR, trying to get the United States to enter World War Two. Please, please. He got lend lease earlier in 1941. That was about as far as FDR was willing to go. But on this day, December 7th, everything changed. It did. You know, that night, Churchill Churchill heard the news on the BBC. He was at a birthday dinner at Checkers and immediately wanted to declare war on Japan. In fact, I think it was April Harriman, the American envoy, who had to say, you can't declare war on a radio broadcast.

But there was a phone call that night between Roosevelt and Churchill. And Roosevelt, Churchill said, is it true, Mr. President? And Roosevelt said, it's true. We're all in the same boat now. And you could argue that we, in fact, had been in the same boat since the 1st of September 1939, when Hitler invaded Poland. But isolationism in America was so strong, was so ambient, you could feel it, that even after that great secret conference in August of 1941, FDR meets Churchill. They issue the Atlantic Charter. It's this marvelous statement about

democratic lowercase d principles. And F was this day and then four days later, Adolf Hitler making the historic world historic mistake of declaring war on the United States that really brought us fully into this bloodiest of centuries and created the America that we know because it was the America that became a superpower, became a hyper power. And the admiral has forgotten more about this than I know. But I also just want to say I have not used the word dastardly in a long time. And I think any American president who can say dastardly as an adverb is worth our time. Yeah, 100 percent. We probably could use it today. Absolutely. So, Admiral, as a as a man who's commanded ships and a man who was a sailor himself and now an analyst,

your thoughts on just looking at these images, first of all, and then the significance of what happened that day. Yeah, two things really stand out at me as you look at those really remarkable photographs and some of the footage we're seeing here. First, you're seeing a lot of pictures of USS Arizona, one of the nine battleships at Pearl Harbor on the day of the strike, a quiet Sunday morning. Most sailors are at home with families off the ship, many of them. But many of the young ones are on that ship. So the one you're seeing most there is Arizona. And she was hit and lost 1,100 from that single ship. And it is today, Arizona is the memorial itself. It flipped over and you see a structure on top of where the final resting place is for 1,100 of those sailors. So point one, dastardly probably doesn't begin to get at what the nation

felt at that moment. And then secondly, resolve. We mentioned Winston Churchill. In today's world, you'd have to look at someone like Zelensky. Absolutely. And say, boy, he's playing the role. He's channeling Churchill here as he faces the same kind of, if you will, dastardly attacks. Well, let's go there then. Drones struck inside Russian territory for the second straight day yesterday, hitting an airport in the country's southwest Kursk region. The drone strikes ignited a system of fuel tanks at that airport. This week's strikes have raised questions about Russia's air defense capabilities, as the sites struck on both days are well within Russia's borders.

In another instance yesterday, an industrial plant roughly 50 miles from the Ukrainian border was hit with drones, but no fuel lines or gas sources were hit. So, Admiral, what's happening here? Is there a dynamic shift? And let's talk more about Volodymyr Zelensky in light of the historic day that we are marking? These strikes are, in fact, quite significant in two ways. One, symbolically, here are the Ukrainians quite clearly reaching out and touching Russian long-range air, which has just been pummeling the people of Ukraine, going after the electric grid, the water plants, clear war crimes.

So the Ukrainians are striking out. That's symbolic. But secondly, to the point you made in the read up, these show that the air defenses are vulnerable. That's quite significant. And final thought here, go back to World War II. Right after Pearl Harbor, the United States mounted an attack on Tokyo. Jimmy Doolittle's raid from aircraft carriers showing the Japanese they were not invulnerable in their capital city. Right. And Jonathan Lemire, we're going to be announcing, I guess, Times Person of the Year. I don't imagine how it's not Volodymyr Zelensky. We'll see. He is the odds on favorite, I would say. One note on this.

I do think there's a relationship to watch here between Kiev and Washington. Washington and the West has repeatedly not given Ukraine weapons where they could strike deep into Russia. Ukraine can't do it on their own, freelancing with these drones. U.S. not telling them to stop. But that's a tension point that we should be watching in the months ahead if they keep those up. John Meacham, I want to go back to Volodymyr Zelensky, someone you have written about

a lot of great historical figures, Churchill, Roosevelt, Lincoln, and more. Talk to us about him as we remember this somber day with potentially, Zelensky may be getting an honor later on. What parallels do you see about the remarkable leadership that he has shown during this devastating war in his home country? Well, what Vladimir Putin launched here was the oldest kind of human enterprise. It was ambition and appetite that were given military form. He saw something, he sees something that he wants, so he decided to take it. And what Zelensky did was stand up with that noble, to use the admiral's term, that noble kind of reaction to appetite and ambition, which is the resolve to defend what is one's own from an unprovoked and let's do it

one more time, dastardly attack on the on his homeland. And so you have this ancient drama playing out anew in the 21st century. And Putin is acting on the worst fundamental impulses in human nature. Zelensky is being fired by the best fundamental impulses in human nature, which is to stand, to defend, to articulate, to fight back. And I think it's also important to remember that he is a performer. That's where he started. John Paul II was a performer. Ronald Reagan was a performer. Winston Churchill understood the means of the media of his time. He understood the power of radio. Franklin Roosevelt understood radio. It's not coincidental that great leaders understand influential leaders, great and not so

great, understand how to reach the people where they are in that given moment. And that's a hugely important lesson for the forces of light as they step up to combat the forces of shadow. So and Ali, as we talk about great leaders, it's also just when you look at what Volodymyr Zelensky is doing and what Ukraine, how he's galvanizing Ukrainians to fight and die and endure atrocities for the safety of the world. It's hard not to think about how weak the Republicans are that they can't even talk back to a failed reality TV show host who is losing elections for them. And I say this, it's not a dig. It's really incredible because democracy is sacred as Volodymyr Zelensky is showing the world. Well, you see the stakes for Ukrainians and how they have put so much on

the line and how they fought. They were such underdogs, David versus Goliath, and the world is cheering them on and hoping that this war is going to come to a conclusion and that they are going to prevail. What's the realistic outcome for the Ukrainians in the next couple of months? Yeah, just one last point on Zelensky. I'd invite everyone to think if you're on the front lines in Ukraine and you look over your shoulder, what do you see? You see your spouse, your children, your elders, your parents, your society, your language. Powerful, motivating force. Yes. society, your language, powerful, motivating force. So to that point, Elise, I think that

the Ukrainians are going to continue to succeed in this land war side. They're going to have to do better and we need to help them do better in the air war. That's why these drone strikes are, in fact, important, going after Russian air capabilities. But the end game here, let us hope, maybe six months from now, as the winter concludes, turns to a negotiation. Our job here in the United States, just like we did for Winston Churchill, Churchill said, give us the tools. We will do the job. We need to give the Ukrainians those tools. Retired four-star Admiral James Tavridis, thank you. And presidential historian John Meacham, thank you as well. His latest book is titled And There Was Light, Abraham Lincoln and the American Struggle.

Thank you very much to you both.