Morning Joe - Morning Joe 1/31/25

Episode Date: January 31, 2025

Plane’s black boxes recovered after midair collision

Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Friday, January 31st. With us this morning, the co-host of our fourth hour, Jonathan Lemire. He's a contributing writer at The Atlantic covering the White House and national politics and U.S. special correspondent for BBC News, Cady K. Our top story this morning, again, the crash at DCA. Two nights ago, the National Transportation Safety Board has recovered now two black boxes from the passenger flight involved in the midair collision with an Army helicopter near Reagan National Airport. The American Airlines plane was coming from Wichita, Kansas on Wednesday night. It was making its final approach to the airport with a total of 64

people on board. The Black Hawk helicopter from Fort Belvoir was conducting a training mission with three soldiers aboard. The aircraft crashed into the Potomac River. Both, all 67 people involved, were killed. As of last night, crews recovered about 40 bodies from the Potomac. Search efforts are set to resume this morning. Officials also discovered the plane's cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder. Both have been taken to a lab for evaluation by the NTSB. The cause of the crash has not yet been determined, but there are some concerns this morning of the level of staffing in the air traffic control tower the night of the crash.

Typically, Reagan National Airport has one controller for planes and another for helicopters. But a source with knowledge of the situation tells NBC News on Wednesday there was only one controller handling both aircraft. While that is not ideal, it is acceptable under FAA standards. New air traffic control audio captured the moment leading up to the crash and the immediate reaction afterward. a aircraft versus a helicopter in the Potomac area of Reagan National. Fire command, the accident happened in the river. Both the helicopter and the plane crashed in the river. It's east of the approach end of runway 33.

It was probably out in the middle of the river. I just saw a fireball and then it was just gone. So I haven't seen anything since they hit the river. But it was a CRJ and a helicopter that hit, I would say, maybe a half mile off the approaching of 3-3. Some chilling audio there. Meanwhile, we're learning more about some of the victims who died on Wednesday night in that collision above the Potomac. The Pentagon has not released the names of the three people aboard the downed Black Hawk helicopter, but Defense Secretary Pete Hegza said

it was a fairly experienced crew, in his words. Family members have confirmed the deaths of the crew on board the American Airlines flight, including the pilot, first officer, and two flight attendants. The plane's passengers included more than a dozen figure skaters, some as young as 12 years old. Coaches and parents with them returning from a training camp following the 2025 U.S. Figure

Skating Championships in Wichita, which as I said is where the flight originated. Two-time Olympic figure skating medalist Nancy Kerrigan spoke about the tragedy during an emotional news conference yesterday at the prestigious skating club of Boston, of which she is an alumna. Much like everyone here has been saying is not sure how to process it. Shoot, I'm sorry Which is why I'm here I Think it's a shock. I was watching I wasn't woken up in the morning and saw it. I was watching like so I probably looked tired but And then when you find out, you know,

you know some of the people on the plane, it's even a bigger blow. Going through something tragic, not like this, but myself, that the communities stood behind me, and I'm grateful for that. And so it's my turn now to hopefully be here. I'm not sure what it is to do maybe get someone a cup of coffee but a hug I'm here for hugs. I don't know it's just I want to be able to give back what I feel like I got.

The main lesson I think learned in skating is you get back up, keep on trying. And even when it's hard, you get back up. Even when you're crying, hurt, pain, you get back up and move forward. It's not easy, but that's what we all have to do now together. Karrion was flanked there by some of the legends of American figure skating. Two young skaters, members of the Skating Club of Boston, along with parents and two coaches, were on board the flight. Also among those lost, five members of a Washington area-based labor union, a professor at the Howard University School of Law, a group of friends returning from a duck hunting trip, an attorney, and many more. Some of the victims' loved ones spoke to reporters yesterday.

It's just feels crazy that it happened to us, to be honest. I mean, it's like you see these things happen in the news, you see them happen in other countries, and then I show up to the airport and my wife's not responding, and I look on Twitter and I see that it's her flight. It was really just kind of a force of nature and about three years ago, saw Nathan Chen in the Olympics and decided, hey, I could do that. He was just was like a phenom and just loved it and it wasn't anyone pushing him. He was just somebody who loved it and had natural talent but also just worked every day kind of just felt like a nightmare and was hoping I would wake up and it would be that but it's a new reality that we

just have to work through together. Joining us now live from Reagan National Airport, NBC News correspondent Aaron Gilchrist. Aaron, you've been on this story from the very earliest hours. What more do we know today about the investigation? Well, the investigation continues, obviously, Willie. We know that the NTSB has taken control of the investigation part of this incident we know that divers were in the water really from the first minutes after this crash happened up until late yesterday they suspended the search and recovery operation last night they will

be back in the water today from the DC Fire Department and several other agencies that have been helping with the recovery effort here. We also know that the NTSB has about 50 people here in this region that are working on this incident and they will be on the water with those divers today again trying to find pieces of what will really be information. They are on a fact-finding mission, the NTSB is, to figure out exactly the how and why of this incident, what caused this crash, and what they can do to prevent a similar incident from happening in the future.

As you noted, we understand from our local station here in D.C. that about 40 of the victims have been recovered at this point from both the plane fuselage and the helicopter as well. The plane broke into at least three pieces when this crash happened the other night. And so the investigators, divers were in the water searching for initially survivors. And then of course, trying to recover now the remains

of all of those victims. An integral part of what the DC Fire Department has been trying to do. The medical examiner in the city is now tasked with identifying those remains and making sure they are ultimately returned to their families. When the divers go back into the water today we understand they'll be looking for additional parts, anything that would be a part of the salvage operation. The NTSB will take control of those elements as they have with the black boxes that were in the airplane. They already have those.

And they start to try to piece together a story to figure out what was going on on the plane, in the cockpit, in the helicopter, in the moments before this crash happened. And that will inform all that they ultimately will determine, ultimately they try to determine what caused this crash to happen. And all that information along with interviews they'll do with people who were in the tower here at Reagan National. All that information will come together. It'll be months before we have some real solid answers from the NTSB, Willie.

But as you might imagine, the investigation is getting a lot of attention. And this is something that will be really a central focus of the NTSB as they go forward with the search recovery of pieces and trying to determine a cause here. And as you say, just extraordinary work by those first responders. The fact that DC Fire and EMS has already searched all the river that it can access at this point is just extraordinary. We hope that they find the remainder of those bodies today. NBC's Aaron Gilchrist at Reagan

National Airport in Washington. Aaron, thanks so much. Let's bring in NBC News aviation analyst, John Cox, who's a former pilot and accident investigator with more than 20 years of experience and really has been guiding us through this over the last 24 hours. John, thanks for being with us. I want to go back just to a few minutes ago. We got some of that new air traffic control audio the moments before the collision and then the moments after. Did you hear anything new? Did we learn anything new from from what we heard there? Willie, I don't think we've heard anything actually new.

We knew yesterday when the first ATC tapes were released that the controller asked the helicopter if they could see the regional jet. The helicopter acknowledged it. The controller told them to pass behind the jet. And at that point, it becomes the responsibility of the helicopter crew to maintain visual separation from the jet. What happened in the minutes after that, we don't know yet.

And that's going to be one of the central questions and central areas of focus for the NTSB is what happened from the time that they acknowledge that they see the jet up to the point of impact. So John, any concerns from your end about this new reporting this morning that there was only one controller in the tower at the moment of the collision? The FAA saying it's not normal, but it is acceptable. What do you make of that? Willie, I think that it says that the staffing was below optimum. But here again, once the helicopter crew says that they see the RJ, they are then responsible to maintain separation from the jet.

So whether there's one controller or two, the responsibility for separation at that point resides with the helicopter crew. John, thank you again for joining us this morning. There have been some speculation the last 24 hours or so because we've heard the audio of the helicopter crew acknowledging they see the jet. Some have wondered if perhaps the helicopter crew saw the wrong jet, acknowledging a different aircraft and not the one from Wichita, which it would definitely collide, later collide. Now, we don't know for sure, so I'm not asking you to weigh in as if that's what you think

happened here, but is that the sort of thing that is possible? Have you seen perhaps in previous incidents where pilots, particularly helicopter, these helicopter pilots with low visibility, hard to see what's going on, so many lights, crowded airspace, does that sound like something that could be possible to you? It's certainly something that NTSB will look at. If they misidentified the airplane, then this could explain the flight path of the helicopter. We don't know that yet and it may be very hard to determine. They will certainly look to see the angle at which the helicopter

pilots would have seen the approaching RJ and potentially the one behind it. So that question is going to get a lot of attention, but as it stands right now this morning, we don't have an answer for that. And let's also talk about elevation. Reporting yesterday that the helicopter may have been a little higher than it should have been. Just speak to us broadly perhaps,

in a crowded airspace like this. We talked yesterday about how that DCA runway is either seeing a plane land or take off every minute, every minute or two. How important is it and how difficult is it to juggle these various aircrafts at various elevations? Because it is, of course, a multi-dimensional space here. The term elevation is unusual in aviation. It's normally altitude. It is, of course, a multi-dimensional space here.

The term elevation is unusual in aviation. It's normally altitude. The fact that if the helicopter was above 200 feet, then they were out of the airspace. They were cleared to fly in. I have landed on that runway many, many times. I've had helicopters go below me many times. So the flight path of the helicopter and the RJ are going to be examined in great detail. If the helicopter was above 200 feet, then it presents a problem and that it could be one of the issues that are contributing or causal to this tragedy.

John, can we talk about the crowding more broadly at Reagan? You've talked about landing there with helicopters around you as well. We know now that there are stories from pilots over the last couple of years of at least two incidents of near misses where planes had to take evasive action to avoid helicopters as they came into land. We had members of Congress just last year, a group of them expressed concerns about the potential for risks because of the number of flights

that are now landing at Reagan. Do you think it needs Reagan Airport and its schedule and the number of flights that are landing as well as the military aircraft there? Does that need revisiting? I certainly think it needs to be looked at, but we have used these procedures for decades and safely, effectively.

And I won't say it's totally routine. Reagan is a challenging airport. I always enjoyed flying in and out of there because it does require skill and it is a satisfying feeling to be able to get the jet where it needs to be on speed. But before we start making major changes, we need to recognize these procedures have worked really well for many, many decades. So I'm hesitant to say blanketly, oh, we should change it when we've had this level of success. Have there been cases, certainly, where there have been conflicts?

But they've been resolved safely. So I think we just need to be careful before we make any changes. I guess what I'm asking is, we know that the number of flights is increasing every year out of Reagan, from congressional demand, from the demand of this is increasing every year out of Reagan from congressional demand, from the demand of this city that is growing. The number of runways hasn't increased in decades. Is there a point at which you have to assess we just have too many flights for the size of this airport? Or are you saying actually we can carry on exponentially expanding the number of flights and still keep the airport safe? There's certainly a limit,

but it's the separation limits that are already in place. So that there is a limit about how many aircraft per hour that can come in and out of Reagan. And we've been able to use that successfully for a really long time. Does that mean that there's no growth possible? I think we're going to have to look at that, but I don't think it's fair to say categorically,

okay, we have too many airplanes, we'll have to go to cut Reagan back. I don't think that the statistics validate that. I don't think that that warrant that. So I think it's something to be looked at, and so long as we maintain the current separation standards, I don't think that warrant that. So I think it's something to be looked at. And so long as we maintain the current separation standards, I think it's proven to be safe. So John, the NTSB now has those two black boxes, the flight data recorders to help with

the investigation. We'll be looking at all the evidence that we've seen publicly. We just heard that air traffic control back and forth. As you say, it looks like perhaps pilot error involved here, that they were given the warning, the pilot about the plane, perhaps saw the wrong plane, we don't know yet. But where will the investigation go from here now that they do have those black boxes? They'll certainly get all the data they can from the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder, particularly the cockpit voice recorder, will give insight into what the pilots knew and didn't know.

And really to say that we know that we feel like that it's a pilot error accident, I think that's premature at this point. We know what the helicopter pilots said, and we know the flight path. Until we can very carefully look at the track of these aircraft. I think that we have to keep an open mind. Everything's still on the table right now as far as the investigators are concerned.

And they're looking at equipment failure as well as a possibility, but we'll just have to wait and see here. NBC News aviation analyst John Cox, we're so lucky to have you on days like these. We appreciate you, John. Thanks. And still ahead on Morning Joe, President Trump facing blistering criticism this morning for suggesting diversity programs are to blame for Wednesday night's air disaster. We'll show you those new remarks and the reaction. Plus, the latest from Capitol Hill is three of the president's most controversial nominees appeared before lawmakers for confirmation hearings yesterday. We are back in 90 seconds. Have you spoken to families of the victims of the plane crash? I don't want to comment on that.

Do you have a plan to go visit the site? I have a plan to visit not the site because what did you tell me what's the site? The water? I don't have a plan to do that, but I will be meeting with some people that were very badly hurt with their family member, obviously, but I'll be meeting with some of the families. Yeah. President Trump yesterday with that flippant response to reporters saying, what do you want me to do? Go swimming to go to the site of that tragedy over the Potomac River yesterday and saying he's going to meet with people who are very badly hurt.

Sadly, there are no people who are very badly hurt. They're all presumed dead this morning. Earlier in the day, Trump appeared in the White House briefing room where he suggested diversity programs put in place by the Biden and Obama administrations somehow caused Wednesday night's tragedy. We must have only the highest standards for those who work in our aviation system. I changed the Obama standards from very mediocre at best to extraordinary. I put safety first.

Obama, Biden, and the Democrats put policy first. And they put politics at a level that nobody's ever seen. They put a big push to put diversity into the FAA's program. The FAA is actively recruiting workers who suffer severe intellectual disabilities, psychiatric problems and other mental and physical conditions under a diversity and inclusion hiring initiative spelled out on the agency's website. Can you imagine? They actually came out with a directive to white and we want the people that are competent. I'm trying to figure out how you can come to the conclusion right now that

diversity had something to do with this crash. Because I have common sense. OK. And unfortunately, a lot of people don't. We want brilliant people doing this. So, again, the president going to the briefing room yesterday as they were still pulling the bodies out of the Potomac, suggesting it was DEI that caused this disaster. The president's citing diversity standards imposed by previous administrations.

The Washington Post is fact checking the president's claims this morning. The paper reporting the Obama administration in 2013 instituted a new hiring system for air traffic controllers that introduced a biographical questionnaire to attract minorities underrepresented in the Comptroller Corps. But Trump, in his first term, left the policy in place. And the FAA under Trump in 2019 launched a program to hire controllers using the very criteria he decried at his news conference. NBC's Peter Alexander pressed the president on that. The cited FAA tax that you read is real, but the implication that this policy is new

or that it stems from efforts that began under President Biden or the Transportation Secretary, Pete Buttigieg, is demonstrably false. It's been on the FAA's website. Who said that, you? No, it's on the website. The FAA's website. It was there in 2013. It was there for the entirety.

Take a look at what I read. It was there for the entirety of your administration, too. So my question is, why didn't you change the policy during your first administration? I did change it. I changed the Obama policy and we had a very good policy. And then Biden came in and he changed it. He did not change the policy again. And Jonathan Lemire, the fact that we're even having this conversation, this semantic argument over who put the policy in place as some kind of suggestion that it is what led to a helicopter flying into a

passenger jet killing 67 people without any evidence. Why are we even talking about that to begin with? But you wrote about this for the Atlantic yesterday about the president behaving like he's still running a campaign or that he's a businessman sitting at Mar-a-Lago, lobbing conspiracy theories and attacks on opponents. What did you see in that briefing room yesterday, John? Yeah, I was in the room when the president addressed the press there, the briefing, something he wanted to do, didn't defer to any of his officials. He himself wanted the spotlight, wanted the microphone, wanted the cameras, White House officials told me.

Yes, this is yet another moment here. First of all, where fact-checking is really important. And good job by Peter, our colleague Peter Alexander. Good work there by the Washington Post. It is worth reiterating. This is again, the first policies, the diversity initiatives were put in place by President Obama. Trump, while he was president, left them there. And then it was his own FAA, when he was in charge, that promoted programs about hiring those with disabilities to join that agency. And that yesterday he, of course, tried to blame them in a wedge issue speaking, you know, in moments after a crisis,

our nation reeling from it, choosing once again division. Also lying about his record, very reminiscent, I will say, of during the presidential campaign when he gained much traction from then Vice President Harris and the idea of transgender surgery provided for inmates in prisons. Well we fact-checked it at the time and found that program also existed under the Trump administration. He of course when he in his Bureau of Prisons promoted it he of course did not change it while he was in office Prisons promoted it, he, of course, did not change it while he was in office.

But bigger picture, Willie. It's another moment where this president took a time of national tragedy and tried to use to score political points and attack his foes. We've seen it a few times this month. The wildfires in Southern California, he blamed that on Democratic politicians. Before he was sworn in, the terror attack in New Orleans on New Year's Day, he blamed that on the border when it turned out, of course, that it was a U.S. citizen in Texas who carried out the attacks. His instinct is never to bring people together, but even in some stunning fashion, try to

blame others and point fingers when, of course, as president, the ultimate responsibility should be lying with him. And you can almost see him anticipating blame of his administration in some way and projecting that onto everyone else. He also blamed former Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg for various issues within the FAA. Buttigieg responded on social media, writing, quote, Despicable. As families grieve, Trump should be leading, not lying.

We put safety first, drove down close calls, grew air traffic control, and had zero commercial airline crash fatalities out of millions of flights on our watch. President Trump now oversees the military and the FAA. One of his first acts was to fire and suspend some of the key personnel who helped to keep our skies safe. Time for the president to show actual leadership and explain what he will do to prevent this from happening again. That's former Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg. Katty Kay watching the president yesterday in that briefing room where Jonathan saw up close reminded of people who said, you know what? He won a second term now.

He's a two-term president. He did it. Maybe he'll settle in and be the president. A lot of people hoped he could be and put behind him the grievances and personal attacks and all of the things that he used to get back to the White House on the campaign trail. But in this first week, clearly no evidence that that's going to happen. Yeah, or even that this would be the kind of calmer, more grown up version of the first administration. With Suzy Wiles in as commander in chief, there had been some speculation that, yes, they would move fast, the policies might not be policies that many

Democrats would agree with, but things would be efficient and work effectively. I think what we've seen in the last 48 hours is that that is not necessarily the case. We saw all of the funding drawn back for domestic grants in the country. That had to be overturned very quickly. Then we saw the crash and the response to the crash. But it looks like Donald Trump is feeling extremely powerful and realizing that even if he says something or goes too far, then he's not going to get much pushback, right? I mean, yes, Pete Buttigieg came out with a tweet saying that this was despicable.

But you have not had a complete outcry, uniform, from members of the Democratic Party responding to what President Trump did, effectively blaming black, brown people, women, people with disabilities for that air crash. I mean, let's be honest, you know, that's what diversity is. And that is what the president said, that black, brown people, women and people with disabilities caused this crash. I mean, where is the outcry from a coordinated outcry from Democrats? Now, they've been tied up.

They've been tied up in the hearings on the Capitol Hill. It's just this sense that Donald Trump wants to have a fight. The fact that he signed a memorandum even after that press conference doesn't suggest at all that he thinks he went too far in that press conference. Quite the contrary, he wants to push it even further. And he thinks that there'll be, even if nothing happens that's positive, there'll be very little pushback from a Congress that seems to be either cowed on the Democratic side or compliant on the Republican side.

Yeah, not much criticism yesterday from Republicans. There were a group of Democrats held a press conference led by Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, who very specifically and clearly criticized the president for using this moment to sow division again. We'll have much more on the plane crash with a focus on the investigation and the victims coming up shortly. Also, MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin will join us with a look at her interview with a former federal prosecutor who worked on some of the January 6th Capitol riot cases.

Plus, President Trump's pick for FBI Director Cash Patel appears to distance himself from the president's sweeping pardons of those rioters during his Senate confirmation hearing. Morning Joe is coming right back. I have rejected any violence against law enforcement and I have including in that group is specifically addressed any violence against law enforcement on January 6th. And I do not agree with the commutation of any sentence of any individual who committed violence against law enforcement. I've been thinking these Capitol police officers and I told them, I thought, I actually thought

that the part of some people who did harm to police officers sucked. And I told them that at every one of these security entrances when I come in and I stand by it and I respectfully disagree with the president or whoever likely gave him advice because the president has to rely on best advice for some of these executive orders. But I make no apology for saying that the men and women on Capitol Hill that got us safely to this building

are heroes. The people who harmed them are thugs. That's Republican Senator Tom Tillis of North Carolina and before that, Cash Patel, President Trump's pick to be director of the FBI, distancing themselves very clearly from Trump's pardons of the violent January 6 rioters, especially those who attacked police officers. That was during Patel's confirmation hearing yesterday. Patel was not the only nominee grilled by senators over their past comments. Tulsi Gabbard, Trump's choice for director of national intelligence, also appeared before a Senate committee yesterday in an equally contentious hearing.

NBC News Chief Capitol Hill correspondent Ryan Nobles has more. A pair of President Trump's top national security nominees facing high-stakes confirmation hearings. There will be no politicization at the FBI. Former federal prosecutor Cash Patel nominated for FBI director, the staunch Trump supporter pressed by Democrats about his independence. Would you be willing to resign the post of FBI director if pressed and given no choice but to obey the order or resign?

Senator, I will always obey the law. And President Trump's pardons of violent offenders from January 6th. I do not agree with the commutation of any sentence of any individual who committed violence against law enforcement. Patel strongly defended by Republicans. The reason you're here is because most of the public, almost every Republican believes that the FBI has been used continuously in a political fashion lying to get Donald Trump. Across the Capitol, former Democratic Congresswoman and combat veteran Tulsi

Gabbard nominated for director of national intelligence What truly unsettles my political opponents is I refuse to be their puppet Gabbard pushing back on claims She parroted Kremlin talking points. I want to make certain that in no way Does Russia get a pass in either your mind or your heart? I'm offended by the question because my sole focus, commitment and responsibility is about our own nation. And pressed over her previous call for a pardon for Edward Snowden, who fled the U.S.

after releasing a trove of government secrets. Is Edward Snowden a traitor to the United States of America? I understand how critical our national security is. Apparently you don't. NBC's Ryan Nobles reporting from Capitol Hill. Let's bring in NBC News senior executive editor for national security, David Rode. He was in the room yesterday for Cash Patel's confirmation hearing. David, good morning.

What were your impressions as you sat and listened? Cash Patel doing what nominees do from time to time, which is say the right things over the course of those hours to get themselves confirmed, but also often in stark contrast with everything they've said for years before that hearing. Yeah, and thank you for pointing that out. That clip of him saying he disagreed with the commutations regarding January 6th was the one moment where he did shift from his past statements. In this memoir he wrote, I'm not sure the exact wording at this point, but he called

January 6th and the charges that were brought a made-up insurrection. When he was asked under oath yesterday why he went on podcasts with hosts that have expressed anti-Semitic and conspiracist views. He said, I went on there to tell them to make them, you know, confront them with the truth. That's why I went on there. And he didn't actually, you know, do that as far as I know when he appeared on those broadcasts. So he was very evasive. He wouldn't say that Joe Biden won the 2020 election. And then separately there was news that was reported by my colleagues, Ken Delaney and Ryan Reilly, that already dismissals of senior officials in the FBI had begun.

Yesterday several of them were told to leave. So it was a very confusing message yesterday. So, David, part of why Patel has drawn such scrutiny is there's first this belief that he will do whatever Donald Trump will ask him to him to do he has said that in the past and also of course he has an enemies list printed for all to see in the back of his book and we certainly believe you know people he potentially go after is more expansive than those just written down there did that come up yesterday what did he say about this idea of using the Department of Justice to carry out retribution he

vowed he wouldn't do it as you you saw Senator Graham say, he said that the Democrats have used it for weapons. I'm not gonna do that. And he insists, he says in the book over and over, there are criminal members of the deep state. And it's a list of people that he says are members of the deep state. And he just denies that. He sort of distorted his own past, I felt. And I think that it's very concerning.

One of the things we've also learned is that there's a half dozen advisors who've arrived at the Justice Department, sorry, at the FBI and are working on the director's floor, the seventh floor. Two of them are affiliated in some way with SpaceX. One of them is a former aide of Representative Jim Jordan, a Republican who's been incredibly negative and criticizing the current FBI. And this is all unprecedented. After J. Edgar Hoover's decades of abuse, there was massive reforms in the 1970s.

There's only been one political appointee in the entire FBI for 50 years. That's the director. You now have a half dozen people coming in. The workforce doesn't know who they are. And current FBI officials are very worried about what's happening. So it was a blockbuster day on the Hill yesterday because there are two other major hearings. Let's talk about those now. Second day of Bobby Kennedy's juniors hearings for HHS. He still again seemed confused about the very basics of Medicare and Medicaid. It was interesting.

I caught my attention. Senator Cassidy, the physician himself, really pressed him on questions there at the end. The Kennedy didn't answer all that well. Some believe that maybe Cassidy creating a path to get to know. Maybe he would be a fourth vote. We're not sure. And there's also Tulsi Gabbard, who, and I'll just read from it here, some Republicans who maybe went into this hearing, inclined to support her, at least giving her the benefit of the doubt, maybe not. Just a few reactions. Here's Senator Langford from Oklahoma, who previously said, he backed Gabbard, said afterwards, there are a lot of questions now.

Senator Curtis of Utah said the hearing deepened his concerns about her judgment. Todd Young of Indiana, who we saw a little bit there clashing here with Edward Snowden, said that, quote, I've got for now at least all the information I need. And then Senator Josh Hawley, who was a Trump supporter to the Hilt, said I'm worried that her nomination may be in jeopardy. Tell us, particularly on that one since it's the national security world, tell us what you're hearing about Gabbard and her chances. I think she's in the most trouble and it's partly, bluntly, that she's a former Democrat and there were sort of basic questions that she wouldn't answer, a question from a Democrat

about Edward Snowden. And so I think she's in the most trouble. And what's fascinating in this deeply divided Senate is a single vote could make a difference. Pete Hegseth was one vote away from being blocked. Tom Tillis didn't vote against him. So I think she's in trouble. I think Kennedy, again, Cassidy, it was amazing to watch him as a physician bring up all these issues with

you know all these vaccines that have he's seen as a physician help people. So if there is a flip it would be those two nominations and I but I do think that Cash Patel will get through and be confirmed. David, talk a little bit more about Tom Tillis. My understanding have been that he hadn't been keen on Pete Hegseth, didn't think he was necessarily qualified for the job, but because he is up for re-election himself in 2026,

he doesn't want to jeopardize his own chances of becoming senator again. Why would he take a different stance on Tulsi Gabbard? Is there a feeling that somebody like Tillis has a pass on one of these and that's just where he's choosing to play his get out of jail free card as it were? Or is this genuinely that he's more concerned about Gabbard than he might have been about Hegseth? It's fascinating and a great question and we've been reporting on it and we'll try to report more.

Danielle Hegseth, the former sister-in-law of Pete Hegseth, said that she was promised by a senator. It appears that was Senator Tillis. I don't know for sure here. That if she said on the record that Hegseth had acted in such a volatile manner that he caused his second wife to fear for her safety, that votes would flip. In a statement after he was confirmed, Danielle Hegseth talked about how she was promised and her sense of frustration, talked about different NDAs that could force women who

suffer abuse from not being able to speak out. So why he chose that vote, it's not clear, but it's something we're still pursuing. But he embraced Cash Patel yesterday very effusively. And many Republican senators, again, fear more a challenge, a primary challenge from the right than anything else. And that might be driving him at this point. And some of those are way down the road as you look at election schedules, but they're still worried about a vote today.

It could cost them years away. David, stay with us. Let's bring in former litigator and MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin, who sat down for an interview with a former federal prosecutor of some of the violent January 6 rioters pardoned by President Trump. Lisa, good morning. So what did you hear? This has to be incredibly frustrating.

Probably isn't even the word for someone who put together a case, built all these cases, won convictions just to see the jails opened up so people could walk out. Lilly, that's absolutely right. Yesterday I interviewed Alexis Loeb, who worked in the Justice Department for over a decade, most recently on the department's sprawling effort to prosecute cases related to the January 6th insurrection. And we spoke about her reaction to President Trump's pardons of the Capitol rioters. Do you have concerns about your safety in the wake of these pardons? Whenever prosecutors bring cases, particularly cases involving violence,

that is a risk that that you take on as a prosecutor. But apart from my role as a prosecutor, I have concerns as an American about what happens now that all of these defendants have been given a pass of some quite serious crimes and what kind of message that sends to them or others who may be considering committing acts of political violence in the future. Willie Alexis and I also spoke about FBI Director nominee Cash Patel, who despite his comments at yesterday's hearing, has set off alarm bells in the Department of Justice about his potential lack of independence from President Trump. Mr. Patel today was told by a senator of President Trump's own party that he believed that the

pardons, and you'll excuse my language—sucked. Is there anything that you want to say to Cash Patel on the eve of his presumably becoming director of the FBI? The pardons can't be undone at this point, but what Mr. Patel can do is that going forward as the head of the FBI, he has the power to remain vigilant and to stop further acts of political violence and to respond when those happen and take them seriously and make sure that future acts of political violence are not treated with impunity and are investigated as they should be.

So additionally, President Trump's interim U.S. attorney for Washington, D.C., Ed Martin, has set a deadline of today for members of his office to issue a preliminary report on the department's prosecutions of those Capitol rioters. Before he joined the Trump administration, Martin, of course, was a stop-the-steal advocate who spoke at the Capitol on January 5th and was on the Capitol grounds during the riot the next day. As the mob breached the building, Martin tweeted in part, like Mardi Gras in DC today, love, faith and joy. The internal review, which has been dubbed Project 1512 because of the federal statute it deals with deals specifically with the DOJ's charging of an obstruction of justice charge that the

Supreme Court ruled was applied to broadly to some of these January 6 cases and Lisa I mean this is someone who I mean we can't say it more plainly than that he was a stop-the-steal advocate he was there pushing the lie that Donald Trump won that election and here he is looking at the advocate. He was there pushing the lie that Donald Trump won that election. And here he is looking at the investigations. He is not only looking at the investigations, but he's basically doing a sweeping internal review, John, of those prosecutions, trying to investigate the investigators, which is something Pam Bondi, who is now the nominee for attorney general, very famously said on

television before her nominations hearings. Now, I recently obtained an internal email from Ed Martin to his colleagues that has previously been reported on by other outlets, but never before in its entirety. In the email, Martin goes out of his way to single out former federal prosecutor Ashley Akers, who joined you on Morning Joe earlier this week.

Akers resigned from the department late last week and has since publicly called Martin's review a wild goose chase. Martin wrote in part, quote, someone named Ashley Akers has been going on television, bad mouthing our work and me. I have never met her, so I find her comments disconnected from reality.

I will be reaching out to her. Maybe she had issues with her supervisors or my predecessor. We will see if we can help her. Alexis Loeb, the federal prosecutor I spoke with yesterday, personally knows Ms. Akers, and we have her first reaction to that email saying she was unnerved by Martin calling out Akers by name. Take a look.

What did you think when you heard about Mr. Martin's comments about Ms. Akers. I found it chilling to to name her specifically for making comments that don't seem disconnected from reality at all. Ms. Akers' comments reflected the facts that the department proved at trial after trial after trial of these defendants. You mentioned that you found Mr. Martin's email chilling and yet you're sitting here with me in a conference room doing an interview. Why? It's important for people to understand the facts about the cases, the facts of what happened

at the Capitol on January 6th, and it's also important for them to understand that these were not political prosecutions. They were staffed by career employees of the Department of Justice. They were conducted in partnership with FBI agents from around the country. People of all political persuasions came to work together on these cases

because they understood that it was wrong to assault officers and it was wrong to attack the Capitol and the peaceful transfer of power on that day. Lisa, terrific and important interview. David, let's get you to react to it, to weigh in on this idea of chilling, because it's not just looking backwards and investigating the investigators,

but also sending a message about any possible investigations into the Trump administration going forward. Yeah, I mean, we talked about it, but along with many pardons was the pardon of the Proud Boys, the group that Donald Trump said during a presidential debate, stand back and stand by. So that's the message to the perpetrators of this. And we've seen this across the Justice Department and the FBI.

People involved in any kind of investigation of Donald Trump are being reassigned. Some of them are being reassigned to a new task force to prosecute officials in sanctuary cities who are seen as not enforcing federal immigration law. So this is payback. It's very clear to people. People are very unnerved in the Justice Department and the FBI. And it's, as far as I know, unprecedented. And it is a chilling message.

Lisa, a final word to you. I think it's important that people like Alexis Loeb have spoken out. The bravery that she and folks like Ashley Akers and Jason Manning, who spoke with NBC News last week with Ryan Reilly, have shown is remarkable. And yet the incentives for people like them to talk to folks like us, there is no incentive for them because we can see that what Ed Martin is doing in collecting up all these documents as part of His preliminary review that looks to me like the precursor to something more than an investigation that starts to look like I know Exactly who to blame and where to lay that blame and to the extent that that materializes into not just firings but prosecutions

There are reasons for folks to be scared. So I appreciate very much that Alexis decided to speak with us, John. You might even say they're weaponizing the Justice Department. MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin and NBC News senior executive editor for national security, David Rode. Thank you both very much. Still ahead, we'll go live to Reagan National Airport where NBC's Tom Costello is standing by with more about the victims, 67 of them in that fatal midair crash. Also new details about the black boxes that have now been recovered from the wreckage. Also ahead this morning, Democratic Senators Chris Coons of Delaware and Tim Kaine of Virginia will join our conversation.

All of it when Morning Joe comes right back. We're about the victims of Wednesday night's mid-air collision over the Potomac this morning. NBC News senior national correspondent Tom Yamas has their stories. In that stunning moment of horror, Flight 5342 was only minutes away from landing when the lives of its 60 passengers and 4 crew members suddenly ended. The violent collision with the U.S. Army Black Hawk helicopter also killing 3 U.S. service members and army captain staff sergeant and chief warrant officer 67 lives lost in an instant.

And last night as friends and family of the victims prayed for a miracle There was little hope because after that collision in the sky both aircraft plummeted into the Potomac River The icy waters that were only way steep and about 35 degrees We spoke with DC's fire chief moments before he went to meet with those victims families when you go into a meeting like that I mean what goes through your head and what what do you want to tell them? moments before he went to meet with those victims families. When you go into a meeting like that, I mean, what goes through your head and what do you want to tell them? They're going to ask us questions

and we're going to do our best to answer those questions with the facts. The first officer of the American Airlines flight was Sam Lilly, his father posting, he was so proud when Sam became a pilot. Also on the flight, some of the country's most promising young figure skaters who were in Wichita at a highly selective training camp. There are brothers and sisters and we're all very close to each other.

The skating club of Boston, devastated. Six affiliated with the club, perished. Olympic figure skater Nancy Kerrigan trained with the club as a team much like. Everyone here has been saying is not sure how to process it. For 1956 Olympic champion 10 Lee Albright the tragedy brought back memories of the 1961 plane crash that killed 18 U.S. figure skaters. I really can't believe that it happened.

I picture the right here. Among those lost now 13 year-old skater Gina Han and her mother gin Gina was known for her grace and musicality on the ice and 16 year-old Spencer Lane who was traveling with his mom Christine Spencer was known for his jumps chronicling his progress on tiktok his final post on instagram this view from his plane window before takeoff. Skating is a very close and tight-knit community. It's a close tight bond and I

think for all of us we have lost family. Also on board skating coaches and former world champions Jenya Shishkova and Vadim Nomov. The married couple leaves behind their son Max, a skater hoping to qualify for the Winter Olympics next year. Brielle buyer was only 12 years old her mom justina Magdalena with her on the plane remembered at her home rink in Virginia. She's really really talented and they were my inspiration. Just heartbreaking we heard a little bit earlier in the show from the father of Spencer Lane, the 16 year old skater who's inspired to get on the ice by Nathan Chen, the American Olympic champion.

And now he and his mother killed in that crash. Tom Yamas reporting there. The National Transportation Safety Board has now recovered the two black boxes from the passenger flight involved in that mid-air collision. As of last night, crews had recovered about 40 bodies from the river. Search efforts set to resume this morning, officials also discovered the plane's cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder.