Morning Joe - Morning Joe 1/6/23

Episode Date: January 6, 2023

McCarthy, foes inch closer to a deal as speaker standoff enters Day 4

At the end of the day, all we are asking Republicans to do is to figure out a way for themselves to organize so the Congress can get together and do the business of the American people. Tip O'Neill got along with Ronald Reagan. Ted Kennedy got along with Orrin Hatch. Joe Biden got along with John McCain. Nancy Pelosi got along with John Boehner. Ruth Bader Ginsburg got along with Antonin Scalia.

All we are asking is House Republicans to get along with each other. First time in 100 years that there is no Congress. Because of ambition or power grabs, dysfunction. And this is not a partisan criticism. Understand this. It's embarrassing. It's dysfunctional. It's dangerous. It's stupid. Those are the words that Republicans have used. Yep. We still do not have a U.S. House of Representatives as the Republican deadlock enters a fourth day. We have new reporting about

another potential deal in the works that could give Kevin McCarthy the gavel, but no speaker still. And how many votes have there been? No, no, no speakers still. I think we're up to about 10 now. Willie, what great points. Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Justice Scalia got along. Tip O'Neill and Ronald Reagan got along. I mean, people on the far left and far right have gotten along and figured out how to work for the best interests of America. And yet Republicans can't even figure out in the House of Representatives how to get along with each other. So bad. The situation is so tough that we have the Democratic leader. They're talking about this not happening in 100 years. We are now. Oh, boy. Up to 200 years. Yeah. Since there have been this many.

But we just Republicans just broke their own record for for for failure by another century. Yeah. When you're going back to the pre-Civil War days to find a historical comparison, something extraordinary is happening. It's been 11 ballots. There's some news overnight that we'll get into that. There may be a deal of some kind in place between Kevin McCarthy and this group of 19 or 20 congressmen and women. But the question is, what did he give up? What else did he give up? At what cost is this speakership coming to Kevin McCarthy if he does end up winning by giving away even more than he's given up? And again, it's not clear what's left to give up, quite frankly. But it sounds like he cut some kind of a deal. At what cost?

So he's speaker for how long? For a week until they decide to throw him out? And what power will he have as speaker if he's giving it all away in these negotiations? And on top of that, the problem is, again, this is a leadership fight. What happens when they have to pass a budget? When they have to pass an intel budget?

When they have to actually keep the government running? What happens when they have to pass an Intel budget, when they have to actually keep the government running, what happens when they have to go ahead and approve a debt ceiling, extending the debt limit. They don't do that. The financial markets are in ruins. And what's happening right now is Kevin McCarthy is so desperate to be Speaker of the House that he's actually putting all of that at risk and by extension, putting America at risk. This guy is giving some extraordinarily reckless people who saluted what happened on January the 6th a couple of years ago. He's giving those handful of people the power to wreck financial markets when these big issues come up down the road. It's something that I certainly hope that Kevin McCarthy and people around him are thinking about, because there's more at stake here than just Kevin McCarthy being Speaker of the House.

Perhaps a reminder to them is that today is the second anniversary of the January 6th attack on the U.S. Capitol. We'll tell you how President Biden plans to mark the day and reflect on where we are as a democracy. Also this morning, doctors say Buffalo Bill safety DeMar Hamlin is alert and responding to commands, showing remarkable improvement after suffering cardiac arrest on the field during Monday Night Football. We'll go live to the hospital. Some incredible stories of almost miraculous responses. I know. Mika and I heard the news yesterday, along with everybody else. Mika teared up when she saw the words, did we win? That that was some great news. It just just shot around the country. Just just extraordinarily uplifting. And let's just pray that his recovery continues.

Yeah, I mean, there was a deep, deep concern. We heard some of it from our guests, but especially privately, doctors saying, look, if you're out for nine to 10 minutes, which is what was reported, how long they perform CPR on them on the field, even if you survive, there's a big risk to your neurological function. What we heard directly from his doctors yesterday saying, DeMar Hamlin's neurological function is intact. And yes, when they gave him a piece of paper to write something, the first thing he wrote was, did we win the game?

That's what he wanted to know. He didn't have any memory of what happened afterwards. So clearly his competitive spirit is intact along with his neurological function. And I believe it was the doctor who said, yeah, you won the game of life. You know, it reminds me so much of where he was two days later, three days later. It's just like the Hall of Fame hockey player we had on yesterday saying when he woke up, he was looking up at the banners and the lights and he just didn't even know the time had passed. And so for DeMar, it was, you know, one second he was

making a tackle, the next second he was waking up. And, you know, the doctors had to be heartened by the fact that, boom, just like that, his mind went immediately to, wait, I'm not on the field. Did we win? What happened? Really great news neurologically, right? Yeah, we'll have much more coming up. Go ahead, Billy. Yeah, I was just going to say, Mika, his father, Mario,

had a call, a Zoom, with the Buffalo Bills team, the players who really have mixed feelings about whether they should go play a game on Sunday. And he said, you have to go play. Go play for DeMar Hamlin and kind of gave them the permission and said, you've got to go do the thing you do best and go play football. So they're going to play that game on Sunday. But the Bills Bengals game now, the NFL announced last night, has been canceled. They're not going to try to make that game up. They're going to continue with the season. It's going to be a lot easier for the Bills.

Yeah. A lot more inspiring for the Bills to get on the field now, knowing that he's most likely going to be sitting there watching the game. Yep. How exciting. That is just amazing news. Again, we will have much more in a live report coming up along with Joe, Willie and me. We have former White House press secretary now on MSNBC host Jen Psaki, the host of way too early White House bureau chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire and presidential historian John Meacham. He's the author of the recent book entitled And Then There Was Light, Abraham Lincoln and the American Str. A good day to have Meechum on as House lawmakers are set to vote today again on who should be their next speaker. For the third straight day yesterday, a Republican stalemate over who should get the gavel ended in no nominee,

receiving the 218 votes required to become speaker. Like on Tuesday and Wednesday, House Democrats unanimously voted for their new minority leader, Hakeem Jeffries. But a small faction of the Republican Party, which won back a slim House majority in November's midterm elections, continued to stand in the way of former minority leader Kevin McCarthy's bid for the speakership. In five more ballots yesterday, bringing the total to 11 this week, McCarthy failed to pick up a single new vote. For historical context, the last time a speakership race went to a 12th ballot, that was more than 200 years ago, back in 1821. After the fifth new ballot ended with the same result as the previous four, House Republicans narrowly won a vote last night to

adjourn until noon today. On his way out of the building last night, McCarthy was optimistic, despite his historic losses. I felt very positive yesterday. I feel more positive today. I think we had really good discussions. I think it really come to a really good point. I think. Did you close it, though? We'll see. So that was McCarthy last night. Members both for and against him spent much of yesterday huddled behind closed doors. Sources close to the process now tell NBC News they believe the members are close to a promising deal, in their words, and we're working out the details. As for specific demands from those far right members still holding out,

looks like they'll get much desired prime slots on several key committees, including appropriations, banking and rules. The deal also reportedly will include the motion to vacate at a threshold of one member, meaning any one member of the House can call for a vote to remove the speaker at any time. That concession reportedly comes with the promise the tool won't be misused. But despite all that, it still will not necessarily assure McCarthy the speakership because NBC News sources are not even certain how many votes phase one of this deal would actually net for McCarthy. Remember, there's still all those people who say I will never vote for the guy. Sources do say

it would be several votes and show he had some momentum and then would deal with the remaining nose on an individual basis. But even at the end of all this and this reporting and all these meetings, Joe, you still had people like Matt Gaetz and others ripping McCarthy saying, I still will never vote for this guy. Remember, you can only give up four votes even after giving away the store. It's not clear he can get to that threshold. This is not a speakership being debated at this point. I mean, this is a joke. I don't understand. I'm sorry to be Tom Hanks and big. is I don't understand. I don't understand. I'm sorry to be Tom Hanks and big. I don't get it. I don't get it. Jen Psaki. What? I can't tell you how many times I've given people the advice throughout my life.

Don't negotiate against yourself. Sit back. Wait. If they're not meeting you halfway, you sit there. And just just to be blunt, it's the old Republican in me, not not the snowflake triggered weak variety of Republicans that appear to be roaming Capitol Hill today. I would sit there and I would rather die than continue negotiating against myself. Die politically. And I've told people that a million times. I would rather die politically than cave into you here, and I'll just stare you down. Kevin McCarthy, right now, he's negotiating against himself. Every night we hear of him giving away more power that's not only bad for him, it's bad for the Republican Congress,

it's bad for the Republican Congress. It's bad for the Republican Party. And it's bad for America when it's time to start passing budgets, when it's time to start increasing the debt ceiling, when it's time to start doing the really, really tough things. And as Willie just said, national security, he's not even negotiating with the four or five people that say they will never vote for him. He's not even negotiating with the four or five people that say they will never vote for him. He's giving away even more of the store, negotiating against himself to only get halfway there. This is one of the weakest public displays I've ever seen. Exactly. I mean, and Joe, the other rule of politics, you know, I'm sure from many years in politics and elected office is try to avoid going to a vote if you don't have the votes.

Right. Right. We all have been sitting here thinking maybe he has a secret plan. Is there a secret plan? Right. It reminds me of that West Wing episode, the secret plan for inflation. You know, I mean, we keep thinking that he has a way to get there. He has not had a way to get there 11 times.

Today is time 12. And to your point, Joe, every time he goes through the round of negotiations or people who are his supporters, they give up something and they give up things that are significant. And at a certain point, other members of the Republican Party who aren't currently holding him hostage, who have been supporting him, may say, you know what? I'm not for this. I'm not going to go down this road with you. That's going to create more chaos, make it easier. The Club for Growth deal yesterday that was announced, for example, makes it easier for wackadoos to get elected because the Club for Growth won't be spending money against them. It makes it easier for chaos to continue in Congress

because it will be easier for a vote of no confidence. So there's a certain point, Joe, where the other members of the party are going to say no more. And every time we have a round, concessions are given up. I've got to say, and again, of course, nobody will listen to me because they haven't listened to me for six years and they keep losing in the Republican Party. You do what you want to do. You want to keep losing. You keep losing. If I'm in the Republican Party's place right now, I get a group of leaders together. I have all 201 of them stand or all 200 of them stand in front of of of of microphones and say, hey, guess what? Guess what? All of those things we offered you,

all of those concessions, they're off the table. You lost. We gave it to you. You didn't take it. You lost. We're starting all over. And guess what? We still have 200 votes. And guess what? We still have 90 percent of the Republican caucus on our side. Go to hell. We're not moving. And you're just negotiating against yourself. Now, if you want to get that you may give me three or four votes, which still means I'm not Speaker of the House, which still means we can't actually swear in our members elect, which actually means our staff members won't be paid pretty soon, which actually means we can't start the committees so we can do the work of the people, like investigating whether Hunter Biden once stole second base illegally when he was seven years old. Whatever Republicans want to do, it's not being done right now because of these holdouts and this weakness, this negotiating against yourself, this shuttle diplomacy when you stay up all night and then they come out and talk to the press and tell you to go to hell. Just stop, Kevin. This is for you. You want this job too much. You've wanted this job too much for too long. It makes you weak. It's just like, let me offend my viewers. It's just what I said

about the Iranian nuclear deal. They wanted the deal too much. My good friend John Kerry wanted the deal too much. President Obama wanted the deal too much. So they negotiated from a position of weakness. Now let's take it all the way back here. You want this speakership too much, too much to tell them to go to hell and let the world come to you. Sit there with your 200 members and let it come to you. You got to take, you got to stop giving up all these concessions. You got to tell them we're back actually at square one and you have none of that until you can deliver me 218 votes. And if you all can't deliver me 218 votes. Don't waste my time. I will sit on this floor with my 200 with my 200 friends and we will sit here and keep voting until hell freezes over. And if you want to wreck the Republican Party, if you want to wreck the country. All right. Fantastic. You do it. It's on your

shoulders, not ours. And that's the sermon for today. And how actually how Republicans used to think and how Republicans used to play hardball because they sure as hell aren't playing it now. This is so weak and pathetic. Right now, he's just conceding to crazy, just conceding to the crazy. But, you know, here's the thing, Lemire, if you're conceding to crazy and crazy is giving you your vote. OK, that's fine. He's conceding to crazy now and crazy is going outside. I will never.

They're not the clown. Apparently, they're not conceding to crusty. That wasn't even close to the clown. They just make no sense there. He's conceding. And there's still the never Kevin caucus, which that's their right. But why is he negotiating with people who say they're going to blow him up politically? It feels like both Krusty the Clown and Sideshow Bob might be in the Republican caucus.

Joe, it's certainly right now. It feels like both Krusty the Clown and Sideshow Bob might be in the Republican caucus. Could be. It's certainly right now, it seems like Kevin McCarthy a glutton for punishment. Now, 11 votes down, no victory, not any closer to victory. Now, his aides are telling us they feel like they've got some momentum, that they did make some progress in these deals last night. But let's take a step back here. Yes, it's possible those concessions will get him some more votes, but he's going to still be several short. We had Jake Sherman on way too early a little while ago. He estimated McCarthy, even if this deal is struck, is still going to need to flip another six, eight, maybe 10 votes. And that's a very, very tall order. There's no sign this will end today.

It likely will go through the weekend. And I do think we're starting to see some cracks from some of McCarthy's supporters. A few of his backers to this point have said that he might give up too much, that if he makes too many concessions and gives away the entire store, it might be more difficult to back him and it might be time to look somewhere else. And so some of that might be negotiating, some of that might be a bluff. But there is suddenly some real questions there as to how much longer McCarthy can keep this going. I think no one's going to jump ship today, it seems, sources we've talked to. But the clock is ticking. There's only so much longer he's going to be able to do this. Even if he does emerge with necessary votes, he's going to be perhaps be the weakest speaker we've seen in generations.

And even then, there's no certain that he will that he'll even get there. He will have suffered days after days of humiliation, days after days of losing votes and still come away with nothing. Donald Trump did get one vote yesterday. Matt Gaetz cast his ballot for him. So I guess, Joe, that also would be one more election that Trump has lost recently. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, John, I saw you perk up when we mentioned the pre-Civil War era. Congressman Nathaniel Banks in 1855 on 133 ballots, the longest of all time. You've been sitting, listening patiently. I got my Nathaniel Banks. No, no, I got my Nathaniel Banks coffee mug.

So we're good. Oh, that's hot. I didn't know they sold those, John, but only you would have one of those. So let's talk about this process we've seen and its roots in what we've seen for the last decade, really, in the Republican Party, in the country. It's ties to today's second anniversary of January 6th. What do you make of what you've seen this week? You know, it's an interesting microcos microcosm on any number of levels. It's kind of I wonder if it's a teachable microcosm to some extent, because you have an extraordinary number of the current House Republicans having the same kind of emotional and political experience that much of the rest of the country has had with them over the last five years. Does that make sense? Suddenly they are being held

hostage by people who feel and are out of the mainstream of American democratic, lowercase d discourse. So people act on incentive, as Lincoln said. Suddenly, the Republicans who were enabled Donald Trump, who to some extent enabled the anniversary, the events we commemorate today, the insurrection against the United States of America, suddenly they are seeing what extremism can do. And it shouldn't have taken this long. I don't know if they'll learn from it. But in American politics, when principle doesn't fail, power has to work. And so if they're not going to do the right thing on principle, then maybe they will finally figure out a way to move from this extremism because it's essential to their power. You know, and by the fruit, by the fruit, you shall know them. Right.

So I don't care why they do it, but they need to do it. We don't have, sort of like in the 1850s, we don't really have a functional two-party system at this hour. And the constitutional democracy as it has developed requires that. You can argue about whether that's ideal or not, but we've said it before and we see it manifested minute by minute over the past week. The Republican Party, once the party of Lincoln, Eisenhower, Reagan, the Bushes, that party doesn't exist. It's it's fundamentally broken, I believe, from a historical perspective, because they don't actually want to unite behind the pursuit of that more perfect union with the Declaration of Independence at the core and a willingness to lose graciously and keep fighting with politics as a mediation of differences.

And they're just it's not a functional force right now. And I don't say that as I'm not a Democrat, not a Republican, obviously. But but that's just it. Right. I mean, just as a common sense observation. Right. What else would one conclude? Is this this is not a functional body. And to McCarthy, given to Joe's point about all these concessions, it's as if you sold your soul and the check bounced. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's exactly selling your soul to the devil. The devil says, no, thanks. I'm I'm busy this weekend. So. So, Jen, really quickly, I want to follow up on something that John said, because before the midterm election.

If somebody like John Meacham, a presidential historian, a Pulitzer Prize winner, had talked about losing gracefully and moving on and working with your opponents, you know, there'd be people mocking and ridiculing that kind of talk. Oh, these these these left wing snowflakes were like making making that a sign of weakness. I mean, we've already seen members of Trump's families and top Republicans basically castigate Jesus and saying the words of Jesus turning the other cheek is weakness. And that what Jesus preaches is weakness. We're Christians. But a lot of that stuff that Jesus says is weakness. After the 22 midterms, how fascinating that what John Meacham says is actually it's not just what's best for America, what's best for the soul of America. It's best for politicians. He said, yeah, lose gracefully, move on. Right. Every election denier lost in 2022. Every person that refused to lose gracefully lost in 2022. Everybody that that that echoed what Donald Trump said and said they were also going to be election deniers, lost their election. So suddenly, what's best for the soul of America is also pretty good Machiavellian advice.

And I just wonder if we're seeing what's playing out on the House floor, whether this is not just sort of the bad aftertaste of six years that have gone horribly wrong for America. The hangover. Yes, the hangover. And yes, gone horribly wrong for Republicans at the voting booths in 2017, 18, 19, 20 and 22. I mean, Joe, I think if you have been a hardcore supporter of the last six years of the Republican agenda under Trump and you've watched this, you're watching on the House floor complete chaos, concessions by Kevin McCarthy, a lot of losing

ballot after ballot. And on the other side, I mean, the Democrats lost the House in the election. They lost, right? And what you see instead is joy, enthusiasm, excitement around Hakeem Jeffries, around this kind of historic group of leaders the Democrats have chosen, while there's chaos on the other side. I think what will determine—you know, John—and I'm not a historian like John Meacham, but what is—what will determine what the next year or a couple of years looks like is what the outcome of this speaker's race is, because you looked at—last night, Matt Gaetz was on Fox News. And what he basically said is that they want Kevin McCarthy to be in a straight jacket.

It's not just about the outcome of the speaker's race, right? It's about how they want to govern. And so this hangover, Joe, that you referenced could continue for some time, unless they find a path forward here. All right. We are going to come back to this conversation, of course. But we want to now go to an update on DeMar Hamlin's medical condition. Doctors say the Buffalo Bill safety is making a fairly remarkable recovery after suffering cardiac arrest during Monday night's game. Let's bring in NBC News correspondent Maggie Vespa, who is outside the University of Cincinnati

Medical Center with new details this morning. Maggie. Make a good morning. Yeah, that fantastic news coming after, as you know, just a long, grueling week here. So many have been hoping for this update. And now we've learned, as you said, DeMar Hamlin is awake. He's communicating with family members by writing on pen and paper. And even though he still remains in critical condition, he's still on a breathing machine. Again, this update just giving hope to so many, including his team, who now say in light of this on Sunday, they are ready to play against the Patriots. In their words, play for three.

Renewed hope for Damar Hamlin, now awake and interacting with friends and family in the hospital. It's been a long and difficult road for the last three days. Emergency and trauma physicians treating Hamlin at the University of Cincinnati Medical Center say the 24-year-old, who went into cardiac arrest at Monday night's game, remains in critical condition and on a breathing machine. But they note he's showing signs of good neurological recovery. It's not only that the lights are on, we know that he's home. And it appears that all the cylinders are firing within his brain. Even communicating with visitors using a pen and paper.

He was able to emerge and follow commands and even ask who had won the game. When he asked, did we win? The answer is yes. You know, DeMar, you won. You've won the game of life. Yeah, man, he definitely won the game of life. Cincinnati wide receiver T. Higgins, who Hamlin tackled during that play Monday night, reacting to his progress. I got news this morning. Man, it was another big relief, you know, off of my chest. In Buffalo, the Bills resumed practice, their teammate on their minds. We just want to love up on him, you know, so the next chance we get,

I don't know when it's going to be, but if we get to see him anytime soon, it's going to be awesome. Back here outside the Cincinnati Hospital, fans have been laying flowers, bringing signs, and just breathing sighs of relief. I'm so thankful that he's recovering and I hope to see him back on the field. We're still going to be praying for him and the team and his family, and we're still going to show love and support. This weekend with that support behind them, the team says it's going to play for three in honor of Hamlin. All right, so the other update coming overnight, the NFL now saying it, in fact, will not reschedule the Bills-Bengals game, Monday's game, during which Hamlin obviously

suffered this injury. A lot of people have been wondering what was going to happen with that game as we're in the final week of the regular season. We're headed into the playoffs. The NFL overnight saying that they made that decision because they said it wouldn't have any direct impact on which teams make the playoffs, like no team would be disqualified or would qualify based on the outcome of that one game. Some execs acknowledging it might create what they called competitive inequities in some playoff scenarios, but they say they're still working through the implications of this decision. And we expect more on that today. But again, guys, to many, that announcement dwarfed, frankly, by the good news, the great news coming out of this hospital in Cincinnati.

Finally, Mika, I'll send it back to you. Absolutely. NBC's Maggie Vespa, thank you very much for your reporting this morning. And still ahead on Morning Joe, we are marking two years since the January 6th insurrection. Former U.S. Capitol Police Chief Stephen Sund and U.S. Capitol Police Officer Harry Dunn will both join us this morning. Plus, Democratic Senator Debbie Stabenow of Michigan is our guest on the heels of her. And she announced her retirement yesterday. And we'll be talking to her this morning. Also this morning, Russian President Vladimir Putin's call for a 36 hour ceasefire is being met with skepticism in Ukraine.

We'll have the latest on where the war stands. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. I'm a one way motorway. I'm a road that drives away. We'll be right back. It's a live picture on a Friday morning of the United States Capitol. Two years now after that building was attacked on January 6th, 2021. The partner of a U.S. Capitol police officer, Brian Sicknick, has filed a wrongful death lawsuit against Donald Trump and the two men convicted in connection with assaulting officer Sicknick on January 6th. You'll remember Sicknick died a day after the Capitol attack.

A medical examiner says he suffered two strokes and died of natural causes. Now his partner, Sandra Garza, is claiming Trump and the rioters action played a role in Sicknick's death. In a statement, her attorney wrote in part, nothing can return Officer Sicknick to his fiance or to his family. But this lawsuit is an important part of the process of holding those who caused his death accountable. Garza is seeking $10 million in damages from each of them. Officer Sicknick will posthumously receive the Presidential Citizens Medal today, one of 12 people being honored on the second anniversary of the January 6th attack on the Capitol. President Biden will

award the medal to a dozen election workers, officials and law enforcement officers for contributions to our democracy during that time. Among the others set to receive the country's second highest civilian honor, Ruby Freeman and Shea Moss. You'll remember they are the election workers from Georgia who were targeted with racist death threats after they became the subjects of baseless conspiracy theories. Former President Trump still is attacking Ruby Freeman on his social media site this week. Several of Officer Sicknick's colleagues from the Capitol, Washington, D.C., Metro Police Departments also will receive that medal, including officers Eugene Goodman, Harry Dunn and Michael Fanone.

So, Joe, former President Trump is still attacking this private citizen, Ruby Freeman, who lives in Georgia, was the subject of all these baseless conspiracy theories based on videos people thought they saw and, of course, didn't. Her life became a living hell and in some ways still is two years after January 6th. Because people believe those conspiracy theories. They still believe those conspiracy theories. They still repeat them. And you just ask me, have you not seen that they're all lies? These are the same people that say, oh, I don't watch the news. And yet they live in the sewer when it comes to information. Sewer pass around from QAnon, conspiracy sites. So, no, they don't get the news from places that have editors and places that like can be held accountable if they tell lies. They go down in the sewer to get their so-called news and conspiracy theories.

And this is what happens. And John Meacham, that's just that's just one of the maladies that that this Republican this this Republican Party under Donald Trump has, as unfortunately placed on on American politics. But you look at Officer Sicknick, his family, other police officers and how horribly they were treated. Trumpists in the media were just so offended by police officers that were brutalized by by rioters, beaten, almost beaten to death by American flags that some of them on prime time actually accused them of being actors, of being overly dramatic when they almost died. And of course, they take great offense when you suggest that any police officers died as a result of 9-11. When you ask the dead police officers' families and you ask their brothers and sisters in arms in blue whether they did or not, they'll say, yes, yes, they did. They died as a direct result of Trump and the rioters. So where are we two years later on January the 6th? Is justice

finally being served for those people who brutalized police officers and ransacked America's the people's house. Two things, Joe, on this. I think one, I'm slightly paraphrasing President Kennedy, who said a nation reveals itself who it who it is by who it honors. And so what President Biden's doing today is revealing that at our best, we're about these dozen people who stood up in democracy's hour of maximum danger at personal risk unto even unto death to defend an idea that just enough of us have made a reality in this country for almost two and a half centuries. And so that's a vital thing to pause and think about, that these people were willing to die for this idea. And I'd like to think I would be, but I'm glad I'm not being tested on it.

And so I think let's be candid about the remarkable level of courage there. The second is, and I know you've talked to people like this. I have had conversations with people whose names almost everyone listening would recognize on the right in American life who are so reflexively partisan. And I use that word advisedly, right? Reflexively partisan. That's where they begin the day is how are the Democrats trying to take what I've got? How is Joe Biden trying to be a radical, which we could discuss endlessly about how hilarious that is. They look at those images that you're showing and they don't see an attack on democracy. They see a world where you and I are exaggerating what happened,

that we're not, that we have somehow politicized this and that basically, you know, the left wants it to be an insurrection. It was just a demonstration that got out of hand. Well, the hell it was. And I think that's a shameful thing to and a deeply embarrassing and unsettling thing to believe. But John, these people that you're unsettling because it's not factual. Right. The thing that when you're talking about, John, you're talking about people. And we've had this discussion offline. Who in every other aspect of their life are thoughtful. Yeah. Reasonable, educated, bright, the type of people you would normally want to be

around, that you'd want to work with side by side. Meek and I have somebody that we have the greatest respect for and have always had the greatest respect for, who just began a conversation about January the 6th and tried to say the same thing. And we said, but the president of the United States was trying to get Mike Pence killed. They were shouting, hang Mike Pence. They were trying to kill. The mob was trying to get at and kill and harm Mike Pence. They were trying to kill. The mob was trying to get at and kill and harm Mike Pence. And this person who I promise you everybody would want on their side, on their team said.

No, they didn't. What evidence do you have of that? Do they have any guns? I said, hey, well, first of all, the Secret Service people that were with them, it was like 9-11. They were picking up the phones. They were calling home. They were saying goodbye to their wives and their husbands and their children because they didn't think they were going to survive the day. Those were the people there. They still wouldn't hear of it. They didn't have guns. They didn't want to hurt Mike Pence. They convinced themselves of this. And again, this is a losing argument. These are the people that lose elections every year. What's so shocking to me, though, is that until this person opened their mouth and started telling that lie that they had convinced themselves was the truth. I would have never dreamed in a million years they'd go there.

Not in a million years. They are deliberately, deliberately taking on propaganda and lies and conspiracy theories and letting it shape and define their worldview. Absolutely. And so that, so you asked about two years in. Here's the, if you look at the last 24 months to the day, here's what's, that's what's disturbing, unsettling, somewhat horrifying about it. What we just talked about. Here's what's good. Just enough of us in the midterm election did the right thing. And I'd argue that American history is shaped by the moment when just enough of us do the right thing just long enough to keep this experiment going. And so we are in a stronger position today than we were on January 6th, 2021. But it's fragile, it's fallible. And to use a motto from Willie and Mika's favorite era, the 18th and 19th centuries, the price of liberty is eternal vigilance.

And so as we honor these folks today, as we watch this and let's remember that they were vigilant for us, we have to keep being vigilant in the way we were in the midterms. And you were so right. There are few routes in American history. There are few clean victories. It's just enough people doing the right thing at just the right time that makes a difference. And as people will learn when they read your book on Abraham Lincoln and there was light, Abraham Lincoln at the beginning of 1864 was projected not only to lose reelection, but many people believed he wouldn't even win the Republican nomination. And it wasn't until Grant moved on Atlanta and then moved across Georgia

that that victory was assured. Just kept fighting just long enough, won it just the right time, John, to make all the difference. Yeah. And just on that point, Lincoln was willing to lose because he was not going to negotiate emancipation. He would not have fit in, would not have probably would have recognized it just because we recognize this. This his Republican Party, Lincoln's principled leadership was that he was willing to lose the presidency explicitly because he believed that he could not ask men, black men to fight for the union and then negotiate away their freedom. And if you divorce power from conscience, you get January 6th. Mm hmm. Well put. John Meacham, thank you very much. Again, the book is entitled And There Was Light, Abraham Lincoln and the American Struggle. And joining us now is former Capitol Police Chief Stephen Sund. He resigned one day

after the Capitol Hill attack and is out now with a new book entitled Courage Under Fire, Under Siege and outnumbered 58 to 1 on January 6th and two years to the day. Love to hear your thoughts and also touch upon this conversation we just had with John Meacham about the lack of agreement on the facts of what happened that day, potentially leaving us open to more violence again. Good morning. Thank you for having me here. So what are your what are your what are your thoughts? Yes, I am. Okay, go ahead. I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question? I'm sorry. Just give us your thoughts on today, two years later. What are your thoughts? It's a very difficult day. I'll tell you, I hear from Capitol Police officers all the time. I actually just received a letter from an employee

of Capitol Police this morning on my email talking about just how difficult a day this is, just how difficult it is to watch the videos of what happened that day. Because they're not seeing police officers. They're seeing coworkers. They're seeing friends being beaten, kicked, sprayed with chemicals, and hit with metal poles. It's a very difficult day that, you know, I've had a number of officers tell me, I just wish the 7th would come. We could just get through this day. It's a very, very tough day. But my hat's off to them. They're working really hard. They're going down there. They're doing their J-O-B. I think they're just tired of everything being

politicized around this. So today, a number of those officers, including Harry Dunn, who we'll be speaking to a little later in the show, are going to be honored at the White House by President Biden for what they did that day. Seeing as you watch that moment this afternoon, what will you think about that? You know, I'm happy that the men and women that were out there fighting, the men and women that defended the Capitol that day deserve the recognition. They deserve the support of their elected officials. I'm proud of them. I'm happy that they're being recognized. I'm happy they got the Congressional Gold Medal. But Metropolitan, Park Police, Prince George's County, Montgomery County, the 17 law enforcement agencies that came down and helped the United States Capitol Police, you know, they all need

to be recognized this day and appreciated for everything they did. Chief Sun, appreciate you coming back on this morning. I know this is a tough day for you and everybody who served there. You've raised some concerns about preparations around the Capitol for a future event, future protest, God forbid, a future attack on the Capitol. The currently sitting chief of the Capitol Police has said they're going to soon be back to pre-January 6 numbers in terms of how many officers they have up on Capitol Hill and feeling pretty good about where they are. What would you think about that right now? terms of how many officers they have up on Capitol Hill and feeling pretty good about where they are.

What would you think about that right now? Where is the Capitol Police Force in terms of its ability to defend against an attack like this again? I think they're working hard to get there. Tom Manger, who's their chief, he's got a lot of experience. He's doing his best. I think the big concern there is, you know, one, you know, officers, the morale is still really down from January 6th. They need all the backing they can get. I'm still really concerned about the political oversight, the structure that oversees security down on Capitol Hill. And I'm really worried about how that could affect preparations like it affected for me coming into another major event, whether it's the security preparations, the intelligence apparatus out there, or even the lack of support we got from the Department of Defense, I'm not sure any of

that's been fixed. We've had the IG from DOD and DHS both do reviews. DOD IG said they're perfectly acceptable with the Department of Defense response to assisting my officers on that day. I think that's unacceptable, and I don't think that's been fixed. So, Chief, you just laid out your concerns about the logistics of whether the Capitol could be defended in another attack like this. But there's also what fueled the violence in the first place. We expect to hear from President Biden today with a real stark warning, saying that the lies, the disinformation that led to the political rhetoric that led to January 6, 2021, still very much with us, even though some election deniers were defeated in this past November's midterms. How concerned are you that the underlying cause, that incendiary rhetoric, those lies, are still with us and could lead to another moment like this?

Well, you look at how we are as a country. I think we're very divided and fractured as a country. And you're worried anything like that could lead to some type of political violence in the future. But we wouldn't be here today if an angry mob wasn't sent up to the Capitol on January 6th. There's no reason that we should be here when there's lack of evidence for anything that indicated about the election and have the rhetoric, the violent rhetoric that I said and the mob released on my officers up on the Hill. A new book is entitled Courage Under Fire, Under Siege and Outnumbered, 58 to 1 on January 6th. Former Capitol Police Chief Stephen Sund, thank you very much for coming back with us this morning. And thank you so much for your service. We greatly appreciate it. Absolutely. I certainly appreciate Sund. Thank you very much for coming back with us this morning. Thank you so much for your service. We greatly appreciate it. I certainly appreciate it. Thank

you. All right. So, Jen Psaki, we know much more now than we did in the hours following January the 6th. We know that sometime before January the 6th, Donald Trump was desperately running around to his attorneys, his most loyal attorneys that he had on the White House staff who defended him through two impeachments. And he was asking them for strategies. How do we do this? How do we do this? When he was finally told you can't do this legally, you've lost, Mr. President. We know that he left in a huff. And later on that night or next early morning, he sent out the tweet to all of his followers saying, come on, January 6th, it's going to be wild. We saw all the actions leading up to that. We saw Donald Trump sitting there doing absolutely nothing.

While Don Jr., while Ivanka, while his children, while the people closest to him, while every staff member, Pat Cipollone saying every staff member in the White House wanted the mob gone. Donald Trump wouldn't let the mob gone. We've seen one person after another, one writer after another sent to jail facing justice years, two years later. I guess the big question is, is the person responsible for that, who the chief was just talking about, Donald Trump, do you think he's ultimately going to face justice for sending all of these people to the Capitol to riot against leaders who run the United States of America? Well, the only person who knows that is working in the Justice Department or was appointed by Merrick Garland to make that determination. But I will say, Joe, reading a lot of the January 6th report, seeing the coverage, looking

at those transcripts, it is just hard to imagine that he is not held accountable to some degree. And I think many Americans share my feeling and your feeling in that regard. And I think the question is, what's next? What is hard for everybody right now who feels that way is that the Justice Department system and process takes time, and it's not transparent by design. We don't know what they have. We don't know where they are in the process. We don't know what they're doing with these transcripts, if they already knew all of this. So right now, for the people who watch this closely, who want to see accountability, the only thing you can do is wait and see what Jack Smith does. Well, Jen Psaki, thank you very much for coming on this morning and coming up.

Donald Trump continues to weigh in on the speaker fight in the House. But is anyone listening? That conversation is ahead. Yeah, not at all. Not a lot of impact. Yeah. Plus, New York Democrats lost three House seats to Republicans in the midterm elections, dominated by concern over crime. Yesterday, the Reverend Al Sharpton brought together

elected officials from across the state to forge a consensus on tackling the issue. And Reverend Al joins us to talk about that next on Morning Joe. I possibly can But there's no Trying to get The feeling again It seemed to disappear As fast as it came