Morning Joe - Morning Joe 1/6/24

Episode Date: January 6, 2025

Congress gathers to certify Donald Trump's win four years after he inspired a riot

Two months ago, the American people elected Donald Trump as the 47th President of the United States of America. Thank you for that very generous applause. It's okay. There are no election deniers on our side of the aisle. And there you go. That was House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries pointing out Republicans' history of election denialism ahead of today's anniversary of the January 6th attack on the Capitol. Hours from now, Congress is set to certify Donald Trump's win ahead of his inauguration

in a few weeks. The transfer of power to Trump is shaping up to be peaceful, unlike the January 6th he denied President Biden four years ago. So good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. With us, we have the co-host of our fourth hour, Jonathan LaMire. Congratulations. Thank you for having me. President Emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass.

He's the author of the weekly newsletter, Home and Away, available on Substack. A lot to talk to you about today, here and abroad. Roger's chair in the American presidency at Vanderbilt University. Historian John Meacham is with us. And the new host of Way Too Early, Ali Vitale. Congratulations, great first show. We are so happy to have you on the team.

Joe, let's start off on this January 6th. Do you want to go there? Four years ago was quite a different day than today. Yeah, yeah, I do. And I'd love to, you know, we saw the opening shot. TJ, can we get the shot of the Capitol? Just an absolute blizzard that is going to be setting in over Washington today, expecting anywhere from 10 inches to a foot of snow there. And so I just think for a blizzard of words regarding Shays' Rebellion and the French and Indian War, I want to go to John Meacham in Nashville, Tennessee, safely away from the snowstorm there.

But John, I'd love to get your thoughts this morning on January the 6th. We still have, and I saw something really moving story today about a Capitol Hill cop who had said his whole life, he either wanted to be a race car driver or he wanted to be a police officer at the Capitol. He took his life a few weeks after the January 6th riots. It was too much for him to contemplate and to bear sort of PTSD. There were all in all, there were four police officers who died. Their families mourned them this morning and died. The families say as a result of January the 6th. There were also others

that were swept into the madness of that moment who passed. And so here we are, of that moment who passed. And so here we are, and Hakeem Jeffries is exactly right. There were those four years, four years ago, who pushed back against a peaceful transfer of power in the most violent of ways. And yet how beautiful that Hakeem was able to stand up and say, we lost. We salute you.

We hand the gavel to you basically of power in Washington, DC. Why? Not because we love what you stand for. Not because we love the campaign that you ran. Not because we believe that what you're going to do is going to be good for Washington. But we do this because we love America. This is what people who have loved America for over 240 years have done. And we Democrats, we do it again today.

The first time this happened was March 4th, 1801, shortly after the Shays' Rebellion, just if you're keeping the score. When Thomas Jefferson walked from his boarding house on Capitol Hill to become the first president, not of the governing party of Washington and Adams, as informal as those labels were then. And he gave a really important inaugural address, probably the second most important thing he ever wrote behind the Declaration of Independence.

And he said, we're all Republicans, we're all Federalists, and every difference of opinion does not have to be a difference of principle. But there are some differences of principle. And a difference of principle is whether or not you acknowledge results you don't like. And that's the essence of life in a rules-based order. Otherwise, it's all kindergarten and the teachers gone. And that is what we have to push back against again and again and again. I don't know about you, except for remembering possibly in passing that both Vice President Richard Nixon and Vice President Al Gore had to preside over their own certifying their own defeats in the presidential race.

I had never really thought much about the election certification. I think I remember Claire McCaskill saying with you all, you know, sometimes she didn't go when she was in the Senate because it was just, it was just, it just happened, right? It was like, you know, oh, you know, they're servicing the water fountains, you know, you don't go to that. So, you know, but now it's important. And a final point is, this is not a partisan talking point. This is not a, just a way to hammer away at Donald Trump. To remember what happened on January 6th

is an act of remembrance in the purest form. And remembrance in the traditions show that you and I and so many other people came from. Remembrance is not nostalgia. It's an act of agency. You remember things that you either want to emulate or you want to avoid. And we want to avoid ever again having American democracy on the knife's edge. And John, you have said so many times through the years, and I think it's important to remember this today. You said so many times that American history has always been on the knife's edge.

Maybe if a battle had been fought one way or a treat had gone another way, we may have lost American democracy. I think it's so important with the madness that follows every election, where every trend is exaggerated, where every victory is turned into a massive landslide, where where suddenly X and Elon Musk and bros and you name it are in charge of America for the rest of time in memoriam. It is important for us to remember those of us who know history, those of us who have lived history, those of us who have understood that actually a victory is just the beginning of a political battle, a democratic political battle.

And you never know where it's going to end. I always think about the two greatest landslides in modern American history, 1964 LBJ 49 states, he's run out of politics. His own party gets rid of him. I can say Newt Gingrich became the first speaker in 40 years, Republican speaker in 40 years. He was run out of town four years later. Richard Nixon, 49 states out of 50, he wins.

And of course, soon after that, he's being ridden out of town. He doesn't even last two years after winning 49 states. I'm not saying this is going to happen in Donald Trump. That's not my point at all. My point is that for the past two months since the election, there have been such massive over sweeping statements about the scale and the scope of this victory and what it will mean for America for the next generation. You forget that one candidate got 49.9% and the other got 48.5%.

Wisconsin, less than a percentage point. Michigan, one and a half percentage points. By the way, those two states, Democrats, a half percentage points. By the way, and those two states Democrats won the Senate race. This remains an evenly divided country. And no one, no one, to paraphrase William F. Buckley, no one is held hostage to the results of the last election other than what the Constitution tells us. And so we are still a divided nation.

And yes, Donald Trump won despite January 6th, but half the nation was okay with that. Half the nation not okay with that. The debate continues in full. Absolutely. And as Ronald Reagan used to say, whenever he wanted to see whether a prediction was true or an inevitable result was gonna come along, he would ask President Dewey how that worked out. History's always like this.

It is contingent. It is conditional. And this is not, again, to our Republican friends, this is not to diminish President Trump's victory. It's not. Not at all. It is to put it in context. It is to put it in context, which is that, as you mentioned, 1964, 1972, and 1984 were the only elections since World War II and really we can go back farther but I won't because Mika will cut me off. The were where more than 58-59% of us agreed on who should be president and

we talked about this and I really will leave you with this, is 1868. I remember thinking a couple of months ago, you know, what was a presidential election that should have been 80-20? Right? You know, there are 20% of people, you can get 20% of people to say anything. So 80-20, what should it have been? And I thought 1868, right? Grants running, Triumphant Union General, Horatio Seymour, the former governor of New York, who was a white supremacist, wanted to repeal the 14th and 15th Amendments, the verdict of the Civil War. It was a five-point race.

In 1868, someone who was against what had happened in the Civil War, nearly won the presidency of the United States in an era when some black folks could vote in the South and still a lot of white Confederates were excluded from the franchise. And it was a four and a half, five point race when they were still burying the Civil War dead. All of which is to say that as long as both sides, to use that phrase, as long as both sides acknowledge the supremacy of the will of the people

and the rule of law and the viability of constitutional norms, as long as everybody agrees on the rules, let's have the fight. What January 6th was about and is about, present tense, is what happens when some people step out of that constitutional covenant and try to end the debate. The debate has to go on, but it goes on in a constitutional covenant. And what January 6th is, is a reminder that not everybody, not everybody will follow those rules. And as, as we watch this video from four years ago, keeping this in mind, we look at what a difference four years makes. And today, officials in Washington will be boosting security

as a joint session of Congress will certify President-elect Trump's electoral victory. As John Meacham noted, Vice President Kamala Harris presides over the process of an election she lost this past November. Trump has said that he plans to pardon those charged and convicted in the January 6, 2021 attack, calling them patriots and hostages. While referring to the riot as a, quote, day of love, bring back the video of that riot. One protester was killed.

Four police officers died in the aftermath. More than 140 officers were injured. And remind you, President Trump asked everybody to go to the Capitol, said he would meet them there. According to the Department of Justice, more than 1,580 defendants have been charged in connection with their actions at the Capitol on January 6, 2021. Of those, 1,270 have been convicted. More than 1,100 have been sentenced,

including 667 given jail or prison time. The federal criminal charges against Trump in connection with the events of that day were dismissed without prejudice when he was reelected president. Trump and his allies have since said the lawmakers who investigated the attack and Trump's role in it should be investigated themselves. And in Trump's words should, quote, go to jail. Jonathan Lemire, you wrote the book, The Big Lie, all on this. And it seems this morning, the big lie has, at least for much of the country, for half

the country, for Trump's team, for the MAGA right, the big lie has flourished. The big lie has become the truth in their eyes. And this riot that we've been looking at with all of the consequences is somehow acceptable, even celebrated. Yeah, the big lie won. And Donald Trump is still very much living the big lie. Just this past weekend, now just two odd weeks before he takes power again on the eve of this January 6th. He screened a documentary at Mar-a-Lago about John Eastman, who was one of the lawyers with a fake elector scheme, one of the lawyers whose efforts were to overturn the election. He gathered Rudy Giuliani, Michael Flynn, Peter Navarro and others. These were all people, many of whom were deeply involved with the efforts to steal the election.

They gathered with Donald Trump this weekend at Mar-a-Lago. Also, I am told, speaking to people close to the former president, they're considering up to 1,000 acts of clemency or pardons for those involved with the January 6th insurrections. That's most of the people that DOJ has charged to this point. Some investigations are still ongoing. So he is on the precipice of taking power again, and he still cannot let go of the lie that he lost the last time. He's still believing that he was cheated, that he had won then as well. On the other side, we have President Biden

pending an op-ed in the Washington Post over the weekend. He also briefly spoke to reporters, saying that this is a day that we should always forget. He's calling for an annual commemoration of January 6th, a day of a somber day of remembrance akin to how we think about Pearl Harbor or September 11th or other tough days, dark days in our nation's history. But that is certainly something Republicans have done, everything they can to wipe away from.

And there's certainly not gonna be any federal recognition of January 6th, the next four years, when Donald Trump is in power again. There are two ways of looking at this day, Richard Haass, and two sides of the country that are making decisions on it that completely don't line up with facts. Your thoughts? What it shows, Mika, is that American democracy has closed in on our 250th anniversary, we're still a work in progress and we're still vulnerable. I mean, just think what would happen the last two, three months if Kamala Harris had won

a close electoral victory. It would have been challenged in the courts, it would have been challenged in the streets, it would have been challenged in state legislatures. Long before January 6th, this time around, it's not clear to me what this country would have gone through. We escaped it only because the side and the Republicans who have challenged in some ways the rule of law came out victorious. So but we shouldn't assume the fact that this January 6th is going to be orderly and peaceful that we're out of the woods. We're not. And

what this says to me is we've got to double down on the lessons of what happened So what do we we need to not take for granted that? American democracy is here to stay we need to teach it to our young people civics needs to become a Staple of American education and middle schools high schools and colleges. I would say I would add to that national service But that's the second thing I would say... I would add to that national service, but keep going. That's the second thing. I would say begin with civics, that no one should be able to get a degree in this country without being familiarized, educated, read the documents, read some of the history. Public service ought to become mainstreamed in this country. Totally agree.

So we bring Americans together who are now living in totally red or totally blue counties or states. We ought to teach people how to navigate the information landscape, because conspiracies and quote unquote alternative facts, there's no place for them in a functioning democracy. So the lesson I take from this is, yeah, we got through January 6th four years ago. Yeah, this time we didn't have a major problem because of the outcome, but we shouldn't get comfortable. American democracy still faces, I would argue, an uncertain future. And that's the lesson we ought to derive from what we're talking about today.

Joe? It reminds me, Ronald Reagan said long ago that American democracy is not a birthright. It is something that must be worked for, that must be fought for. Peacefully, of course, every generation and every new generation of Americans are tasked with working as hard as they can to ensure that democracy lasts another generation. And Ali, it's interesting, much has happened over the holiday break to suggest that all Republicans are not going to lie down and give up their Article 1, or I would say Article 3 powers. You look at

the House of Representatives threatened by Elon Musk, threatened by Donald Trump, threatened with political extinction, that they were going to come in in their primaries and destroy their political careers. Thirty-eight Republicans said, go ahead, make my day, and voted the way they wanted to. Thirty-eight. I've been through close votes. 38 votes, that ain't nothing when you're voting against your leadership and also the incoming president. You can also look at the Senate who selected John Thune. You can look at the Senate who said no, Matt Gaetz. And right now, we're still raising serious questions about Cash Patel and others. And then we haven't even gotten to the courts and what's going to happen there. Again, history will be written as we move forward over the next four years, and it will determine

where this country moves, how strong American democracy is. But you can look back over the last two or three weeks and not just blindly think it's going to be a slam dunk for the incoming president, that there are still some people that believe in checks and balances in Washington, D.C. and across America. Or at least their own political and policy agendas, right, Joe? I mean, you know many of these members who were part of that 38 or who caused some problems for Speaker Johnson and his ability to keep the gavel just a few days ago before the weekend.

I mean, these are folks who have their own individual goals and agendas here, but I do think that you're right to talk about the push and pull that we're going to see the Senate and the House create in real time. How much will they swear fealty to the agenda of Donald Trump? How much will they let Trump and his allies continue to just push through whatever policy agenda they want? And at what point will there be checks? I think it was striking that the incoming majority leader of the Senate, John Thune,

didn't say openly, yes, every Trump nominee for all of the cabinet positions that he's put forward will definitely be confirmed. I mean, you can't speak in absolutes in this Senate, but it is notable that we are not at a point where even the most controversial of these picks, we've talked about Kash Patel, we've talked about Pete Hegseth, we've talked about Tulsi Gabbard. For a different number of reasons, they're all controversial,

but the fact that they're not just immediate rubber stamps tells us something about Trump's Washington, but to bring this back to the fact that it's January 6th, this is a party that might have disagreements on policy, but every single one of them, almost to a point, did come home and allow Donald Trump to retake control of this party, to carry on the idea of the big lie. This is not a matter of just, OK, agree to disagree on the salt tax deduction or on policy.

This is the fundamentals of democracy in this country. And I think January 6th is such an important lens on Capitol Hill every single day because Democrats and Republicans are not operating from the same reality when it comes to that. And when it comes to things that are policy and politics, it makes it hard to have any kind of foundation of trust. And I think that's the bedrock of Washington and of the Capitol right now. And yet there's going to be a one vote difference in the House of Representatives. As I've said, whether they like it or not, whether Republicans like it or not, whether

Democrats like it or not, there's going to have to be a sort of unity government if they want to get anything passed. And Ali, I want to talk to you specifically about something that people started talking about over the past week, and that is the possibility of one huge massive bill that's gonna shove like $10 trillion of additional debt to the United States government that's already $36 trillion in debt. They're gonna shove that all into one bill.

You talked about those 38 Republicans that voted against the last reconciliation or the last bill continuing the resolution because they're concerned like I am like a lot of conservatives are about exploding deficits exploding debt I mean when you start talking about jamming everything into one bill first of all real small government conservatives hate that because that is leadership's way of shoving a lot of really bad Stuff will just say this morning down

conservative members throats But but ten trillion dollars of additional debt in one bill That's just a perfect example of how maybe the speaker and and people around Donald Trump maybe maybe example of how maybe the speaker and people around Donald Trump, maybe they are overshooting the mark there because I cannot imagine conservatives blindly voting for an additional $10 trillion. And again, they've got a one-vote margin. So how does that go, Allie? Well, I'm sure there's concepts of a plan on how to pay for it, don't you think, Joe?

They're talking about this idea of, oh, we'll offset the spending. I've yet to see how they'll, exactly. I've yet to see how they'll do it. And potentially in this massive, you can't. I mean, the only way you can do it is, you can cut Medicare, you can cut Medicaid, you can cut social security, and you can cut

defense spending. I mean, I grew up on this stuff. This is why I ran for Congress. You cannot cut $10 trillion unless you're going to slash Social Security and Medicare. I don't see them doing that. And unless you're going to slash defense spending. And then you talk about additional massive tax cuts for billionaires and multinational corporations. This is not something that I don't know how they get from here to there.

We're going to watch them try. I mean, certainly the way they're going to attempt to do it, and you know this so well, is they're going to attempt to overshadow the right concerns about fiscal responsibility. And they're going to try to basicallyshadow the right concerns about fiscal responsibility. And they're going to try to basically talk over the people in their conference who have active concerns about how they can bring down the national debt, how they cannot spend an extra 10 trillion. They're going to try to say, but we're doing border security. We're doing tax policy.

We're renewing the Trump tax cuts of 2017. Those are going to be the things that they hope it that they hope will sweeten the deal for reluctant conservatives who don't like the spending but who have also been on the front lines of trying to pass stricter border security measures and the border is so central to the Trump message and the Trump policy agenda. It has always been the centerpiece and so the fact that they're going to put that as a very key piece of

this multi-pronged plan, I mean I don't know where these guys maybe they're forgetting the difficulty that Democrats had during build back better that was many many late nights at the Capitol many missed deadlines many failures and many key policies ultimately having to be pulled out of the bill because there was just no way to get them passed. I don't know many people that were happy with that bill at the end of the day, but they

did have a lot of big wins to mark in it. Now Republicans are going to have to do the exact same thing. They're acting like it's going to be easy. I don't know, memories are too short here on the Hill. This is not going to be easy. We will see. The host of Way Too Early, Ali Vitale. Thank you very much.

We will see you tomorrow. And still ahead on Morning Joe, here's a live look from the Carter Center in Atlanta, where former President Jimmy Carter is lying in repose. We'll talk about how the nation is paying its respects to the 39th president this week. Morning Joe is back in 90 seconds. These are live pictures from Atlanta where the late president Jimmy Carter is lying in repose at the Carter Center. Six days of state funeral ceremonies celebrating his life began over the weekend. On Saturday, President Carter's motorcade made a brief stop at his childhood home before continuing on to Atlanta for a moment of silence at the state Capitol.

Tomorrow his casket will be moved to Washington, where Carter will lie in state until Thursday ahead of his funeral ceremony at the National Cathedral. From there, he will return to his hometown of Plains, Georgia for a private funeral and a burial alongside his late wife, Rosalynn. And Mika, obviously, this is a family you knew so well. You would go over and play at the White House with Amy when you were eight, nine years old. But you and your family remained close friends

with the Carters throughout the years. And certainly, my recollections of him wall with you is what a lovely, wonderful man he was. And I may just add what a patient man he was with your father. Absolutely. This is almost to the end, a man who was completely dedicated to service and to God.

And he held his Bible studies up close to the end. And yes, I had talked to my dad a lot about their friendship and the friendships that were made in that presidency. And I've been reading my father's book over again, Power and Principle, which is basically his four years of working with former president Jimmy Carter and how Carter managed people, how they managed their friendship, and it often was intense and at times they would go play tennis or go running and Carter would completely leave him in the dust. He was in very

good shape, very physically strong as president, and something that stood out just in terms of former President Carter's devotion to service and to God. In the book, my dad talks about Pope John Paul II when he visited the U.S. and Carter got to spend a few hours with him. And my father got to know Pope John Paul II and had tremendous respect for him, adored him. And Pope John Paul II said to my dad that when he spent time with Jimmy Carter, it was as if two religious leaders were conversing, not one.

So John Meacham, you write in a new piece, quote, Carter was a great and consequential life, a life devoted to the highest of American ideals, the fulfillment of the promise of the Declaration of Independence at home and abroad. Tell us more about his tremendous legacy. Well, he's a remarkable American story to have come from the South, first Democratic president. He and Lyndon Johnson were these Democrats who came from the farthest reaches when you think it, of the republic to rise to the

pinnacle of power. And he did it in a meritocratic, that's a word that's a bit like debate about it these days, but the mechanics of American democracy and society that were available to white men in that era were the means by which the president, President Carter, ascended. He went to public schools, he went to the Naval Academy, he served in uniform, he was in the state Senate, he was governor of Georgia just moments after, historically speaking, the Civil Rights Movement, and comes out of nowhere, really, makes the Iowa caucuses into the Iowa caucuses, and becomes president in a, by the way, to connect what we've been talking about, in a very narrow win over a man who then became his friend,

Gerald Ford. Until he died, President Ford could name the five or six counties he would put his hand up that he had lost in southern Ohio, that he believes if he'd carried them the result would have been different. I love politicians who can still name counties decades on. But President Carter had a remarkably global vision and a global understanding of what the implications of the Declaration of Independence were for someone who had come from segregated Georgia. can and does change, not rapidly, but steadily, when there are people of goodwill, and Jimmy Carter was of goodwill. Did he get things wrong? Absolutely. Was he perfect? Absolutely not. Was he a saint? No. He was a sinner who managed to

do some really remarkable things. And sinners who do remarkable things, seems to me are more inspiring than saints do, because I don't know about you, but I know a lot more of the former than the latter. Well, you know who else does? Jesus, like Peter. The sinner of all sinners, and denied him three times,

and he said, Peter, you are the rock on which I am going to build my church. So thank God sinners have a shot at changing the world and Jimmy Carter certainly did that. John Meacham, thank you so much as always. Deeply grateful for you this morning. Richard Haas, first of all an observation about Jimmy Carter that I noticed being around Dr. Brzezinski and President Carter at times. One is how different a leader Jimmy Carter was and that he brokered dissent, active dissent. I have read through Dr. Brzezinski's memoirs, his diaries during the White House years.

And at times you read it, Meek and I go, my God, how did Jimmy Carter keep Dr. Brzezinski in there? Because he was constantly pushing back and fighting him. In fact, in his office in Maine, he had a picture of Carter and him running and jogging. And Jimmy Carter's line was, that's it. That's the picture. Zbig, perhaps the one time that we were in step. You just don't see that anymore with presidents. They want it their way or the highway. But let's talk about Jimmy Carter for a second.

way or the highway. But let's talk about Jimmy Carter for a second. Of course, his presidency remembered for Iran and the Iranian hostage crisis and miscalculations there. Let's talk about some other things briefly, because I'm fascinated that 1979 may be one of the more pivotal years in history, other than, say, 45 and 47 in recent American history. You had the Camp David Accords that ended a ground warfare for a generation in the Middle East. You had the normalization of China in early 79, which created the globalization era in which we live, for better or for worse. You had the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan

and Carter's reaction, and more specifically, let's just say it, Dr. Brzezinski's reaction, not only that, but also to Poland. When Solidarity came up, he came up with the porcupine doctrine that would have made it too expensive for the Soviets to actually go in to Poland as they had with Hungary and Czechoslovakia before that. And then you had the Polish Pope and the week that changed the world when the Polish Pope

went there, went to Poland, the rise of solidarity, and really you can go back to 1979. And the first cracks really in the wall of the Iron Curtain began in 1979 with a lot of the Carter administration's policies. That of course, history of course has overshadowed that because of the Iranian hostage crisis. But I want you to do two things here if you will for our friends watching this morning. I want you to talk about the Carter legacy, successes, failures and all that we just talked about here. But also I want you to take that last piece, Iran, and how ironically now in Carter's death, you have Iran at the weakest state it has

been in since that year, 1979. So let's go back to 79. For me, it was an important year. It was the year I went to work for Jimmy Carter. I joined the Pentagon that year, among other things, working on Iran and Afghanistan, the big events of that year. I actually think Jimmy Carter, you know, all the talk about his post-presidency, Joe, as impressive as it was, is in some ways

damning him with faint praise. It tends to underestimate the accomplishments of his presidency. Nuclear arms control agreements with the Soviet Union, the SALT II Accords, you mentioned the normalization with China, Camp David, the Panama Canal Treaty, which gets criticized. But people who criticize it might want to keep in mind the fact that this canal has stayed open and operating, and we have had unlimited access at the same rates as everybody else ever since. We're not fighting a guerrilla war around the canal.

So I actually think Jimmy Carter was a really interesting foreign policy person who, at one and the same time, was both an idealist and a realist. In some ways, if you think about him, he was the forerunner of Ronald Reagan. He put human rights front and center on the foreign policy agenda, but he was still willing to deal with regimes like China and the Soviet Union, which to me was impressive. And by the end, he was increasing American defense spending significantly. He understood that, yes, he was a man of peace, but he understood the world wasn't there. So, yeah, he went through the Camp David thing.

But he jacked up American defense spending significantly. All of our military capabilities in the Middle East, what we now call Central Command, guess what? They had their origins in late 79, early 80 under Jimmy Carter and his Pentagon. So I actually think there's much more continuity between Carter and Reagan than anybody understands. So I would give him a lot of credit for what he did. Coming back to Iran today, you're right. I actually think this is a remarkable moment.

What the Biden administration is doing is handing off from Middle East to the incoming Trump administration, where there is more opportunity for progress than there has been in longer than a generation. And take Iran, which has been the principal problem directly and indirectly now for decades through its proxies, you know, given the loss in Syria, given that Hezbollah has been devastated, Hamas has been weakened, Israel can act militarily over Iran with impunity. What an opportunity for the United States to approach Iran and

essentially say, look, we are done tolerating your support of proxies militarily. We are done allowing you to move ever closer to nuclear weapons. We are prepared to have a live in an arrangement with you, a modus operandi, but only if you accept severe constraints on your foreign policy. If you're willing to do that, we could even talk about easing sanctions. But if you're not, we are prepared to use military force to make sure you do not get

close to nuclear weapons and you cannot resume your military support or proxies. If there was ever a moment to introduce diplomacy back by the threat of force, this is the moment. Donald Trump likes to think of himself as a dealmaker. I actually think he has a serious opportunity here, Joe. There really is. Not only in Iran, as you said, but in Syria, across the Middle East. Expect a deal between the Saudis and Israel soon after Donald Trump gets into power. You're going to see countries that have been sworn enemies since 1948 actually moving together. And I think an acceleration perhaps of we have the Camp David Accords with Jimmy Carter,

but the Abraham Accords with Donald Trump and of course Jared Kushner running that in the first term. I think you're going to see an acceleration of that. Jonathan, I just want to follow up with what Richard said, because I will say, Jimmy Carter did a lot of wonderful things as a former president. And yes, that's an incredible legacy. But when people talk about that, I want to roll my eyes because, again, the normalized relations with China had the only peace treaty from 48 to the 21st century

in the Middle East with the Camp David Accords. But I really want to key briefly on what he said about Jimmy Carter. We often look at presidents and there's always this jagged edge, this cut between the two. But you look at Jimmy Carter pushing human rights in the Soviet Union and across the world, and you look at the military buildup in late 79 and late 1980, this was Jimmy Carter pushing America past the nightmare of Vietnam. He did not have a congress that would allow him to jack up military spending

after America had crawled out of Vietnam, after the surrender, in effect, and after Americans were exhausted by war. It took the shock of Afghanistan, it took the shock of Iran for Carter to be able to get military spending up and going again. And it certainly did increase exponentially. And the pushback against the Soviets increased exponentially as well. No, you're right. And first of all, most former presidents sort of get shorthanded by history.

We all remember one or two things. And Carter, yes, the quick analysis is, oh, the most successful post presidency. His time in office is often forgotten. Look,, oh, the most successful post-presidency. His time in office is often forgotten. Look, he was likely the most successful post-president. We shouldn't suddenly dismiss that. But I do think his time in office is now getting a reconsideration. Jonathan Alter's book of a year or so ago had a role in that. Others' biographies have also come forward in recent years.

And I think his time in office, though, with its flaws, is now being regarded better in history. And this is one of those moments where after Vietnam, with the United States so destroyed and demoralized at home and abroad by what happened there, by the quagmire of Vietnam, Carter started to move past that and build up some military, paving the way perhaps intentionally or not for what Reagan and then George Bush the senior did, just as the Soviet Union was beginning to run out of money and to bog down and get stuck in Afghanistan.

The first cracks in the Iron Curtain began to emerge. You just detailed some of those things that happened in 1979 that put the Soviet Union on that path. So I do think now, Mika, this is how, in part how Carter will be remembered. Yes, he'll be remembered as a man of faith, a devotion to his God, to his wife, certainly to charitable works, but also someone who made a difference while in office. And yes, Iran, Iran, of course, was the thorn at the end that helped undo his time there, but someone who history will regard, I think, more kindly than perhaps he was at the time. Yeah. And in closing, you know, the Middle East, China, a number of the things, the accomplishments

of this presidency are the very reason that Jimmy Carter, as Joe was joking, was so patient with my dad and many others. Jim Flessinger. Jim Slessinger, exactly. Because you know, my dad was a man who countered the thinking of many within the administration. The national security adviser in Carter's presidency was the first cabinet level position, so he already came in hot. You know what I'm saying in terms of this is new. But the president, president Jimmy Carter welcomed the debate for the greater good and I think that is what

made a lot of what happened during his presidency so consequential and why history looks back at it as we get farther and farther away from it as a consequential presidency that changed the world. Richard Haas, thank you so much for joining us on quite a day this is in history. We'll be reading your new piece in Foreign Affairs on quote the Iran opportunity. Look forward to that. And coming up, the NFL postseason is set.

Pablo Torre and Paul Feinbaum join us with their takeaways from week 18 and a preview of the Colwich football playoff semi-finals. Morning Joe, we'll be right back. yards to get to 1100 yards which will put another incentive in for him Oliver fumble the football it's picked up by Barnett who's having a day he's rumbling inside the 10 pulling guys inside the 5 into the end zone touchdown Texans and for Patriots fans, hopefully he's just like Josh Allen looking for his 115th consecutive start Milton again

Booty wide open From the 16 yard line on first down Smith fires Good snap good hold the kick on the way by Santos and it is good! It's second and goal, end zone shot for the lead, it's McLauren! He's got it! Here's Mayfield, three man rush. Steps away, looking, gonna take a shot.

He's got a man, is he in? He is! It's a touchdown for McBillan! A call from the 32, they fake it to him, they fake the end of the run to Franklin, and here they come back to near side, the Mims! He breaks it inside the 20, and he takes it home for the Denver touchdown! the 20 and he takes it home for the Denver touchdown. Those are some of the biggest plays from the final Sunday of NFL regular season, including first of four touchdowns scored last night by Lance running back, roll tie, Jamir Gibbs, one of the few times I've been able to say that this year. As he carries Detroit,

I do a 31 to nine win over the Minnesota Vikings. Just crush them. Now they're at the top seed and then if see playoffs, let's bring in the host of Pablo Torre, finds out a medal arc media, MSNBC contributor Pablo Torre. Pablo, we can talk about the Lions and their dominating performance. You know what I want to talk about? First of all, my heart breaks for my Atlanta Falcons,

but you know what I want to talk about? I want to talk about the sign that went up with Chiefs fans, and I'm surprised they were this obvious about it, but the sign that went up in the second quarter that said we will do anything to stop from facing Joe Burrow, who of course made history by being the only quarterback in NFL history, I think seven, eight games in a row, three TDs over 250 yards. Burrow, I'm sorry, if there were an MVP for the second half of the season, Burrow would win in the landslide. The Chiefs wanted nothing to do with it. And I'm curious, were you as concerned as I was at how badly the Chiefs tank that game? I was darkly

amused. And this is the story of week 18. The last week of the regular season in general, because this week is as much about the game within the game. It's about jockeying for playoff position for draft position as it is about actually winning the game on the field. The problem with the chiefs Joe because I've heard from and Edelberg for instance, just a sample of Bengals fan of course was deeply existentially concerned at how insulting it was that they didn't even pretend Kansas City did to try and win so So they lose 38 to 0

to the Broncos, sending the Broncos to the postseason instead of the terrifying Bengals and Joe Burrow. And for me, because of course these are games that you're supposed to try and win, this was a bit of a, it was like Watergate but inverted.. The lack of cover up was worse than the crime here. So exactly. Everybody does some version of this. If you're smart, just a strategy. But you didn't even pretend. You bench the four most important players on the team

and you lost 38 to nothing. This is one of those things where the league office has to get involved on some level and say, can you guys help us out? You know, the first rule of Tank Club, Joe, is you don't talk about Tank Club. You don't talk about the tank. We are losing on purpose. So I get it. I get it. And I get it. Cincinnati.

I get it. If you're worried about this, because it was insulting. It really was. All right. Let's keep talking about losers and not not not of course, Alliance who just looked extraordinary. They were and I want you to look and I want you to to provide comfort and solace to my dear friend, my dear friend, Jonathan O'Meara, because let me tell you something, as somebody that has followed the Atlanta Falcons his entire life, what I learned is, when teams really bad losers when at

the end when they're supposed to lose and what about those Patriots Jonathan LaMir. I mean that is a sign of true loser doesn't. This was a failure on every level for this organization who went into yesterday with the number one overall pick were they to lose. They would hold on to that they have lost in every conceivable way this year. What's one more game. Well that didn't happen yesterday. First of all the Buffalo Bills tanks almost as

egregiously as the chiefs did but they least pretended they put up a couple points, you know, but they back they bench their backup quarterback they turned to a 3rd stringer they didn't want their division rival get the number one overall pick either. You know, but Joe Milton, the Patriots back quarterback, did play well. Look, it's hard to get players to tank.

Backup players who are playing for their next job, their next paycheck, are going to play hard. This had to come down from the organization. It didn't, Pablo. And here's why this is so frustrating. Jared Mayo's been their head coach. He is a very nice guy. He was a good Patriot as a player. Yeah, I know has been their head coach he is a very nice guy he was a good patriot as a player first year had first year head coach you

usually should get more than one year, but he seemed overmatched all year long and after they win this game. I got wind that he seemed very happy about within the hour he was fired Robert fire now did seem like that was probably in the works before this decision we don't know, but now the Patriots slip from the first pick to the fourth. They lose the opportunity to have that unborn pick because they have a quarterback already in Drake May.

They could have then traded that for a King's ransom. Yep. And instead, they fall back. They won't get extra picks for it. And it is an indictment of an organization that has been off the rails since Tom Brady left. The thing about this is that there is no plausible explanation for how you make all three decisions they made

on the same day. So it is starting Drake May just for a series, just to get him out there. Why? What's the point of that, right? If you're worried about his health, why even risk it? Okay, that's one thing. But of course it's winning the game

and then firing the head coach. Like the whole thing, Joe, about Gerard Bayo was that this was Robert Kraft's hand picked successor to Bill Belichick. Why would you then fire him as soon as the game is over instead of before the game, if you were concerned about him not executing some plan to get you the number one overall pick? It's just it's a triple bogey of anti strategic thinking after having again the greatest coach in the sport for decades of

3 in 3 years which is a remarkable turn around. Yeah, Pablo let's let's talk about I know you you're a big dbt fan as I and what you learn in dT is two things can be true at the same time. Dialectical behavioral therapy. Many are saying. Exactly. Joe, on one hand, can be crushed that once again the Falcons did not make it through. On the other hand, Joe can be very happy that Michael Pinnix Jr., I don't care what anybody says, Pinnix Jr., Bijan Robinson, Drake London,

the Atlanta Falcons are coming, and for people who say they aren't, please, the Falcons' future is as bright as the Crimson Tides' future is gloomy. Mark it down. But on the other hand, we've got to talk about the comeback, we got to come back, the player player the second half of the season and if comeback player the year was actually about the comeback

player the year instead of somebody who lost their own in a wood chopping accident and then played the next year. There is no doubt that Bryce Young would be come back the year. This is a guy that got benched. He was treated like trash in Carolina. He was given no support. I'm telling you, yesterday in these last five weeks, this guy has looked extraordinary. Talk about Bryce Young. Yeah, look, I was waiting for this. I've compared Bryce Young to your long lost child who's been away on study abroad in Europe

and you're concerned about him. He's trying new things. He's looking a little scared of the new adult world. Here he was in the third straight week looking great. And when I say great, I mean 10 touchdowns total against zero interceptions. So Bryce Young for people who are not familiar was the number one overall pick once upon a time

Is Great is B John B John Robinson the tailback for the Falcons one of these running backs who are oh my god Enabling this Renaissance for a position that we had all discarded discarded again like Bryce Young had been by the Panthers who benched him. A rare thing to start your number one overall pick and then bench him and then only to watch him redeem himself, of course, when they're long gone out of contention, but still you feel so much better about yourself. Somehow this sad game,

this sad game Joe has enabled you to yes, enact a little bit of self-help. You feel good about the Falcons. you can actually feel good about Bryce Young a rare Alabama grad making good on January 6 2025 absolutely really a rare Alabama grad I think that I think you just maybe the Eagles have a quarterback who you know maybe not a grad he's he's he's doing he's doing fairly well. There are a few Alabama guys doing well. You're counting him as an alum. Yeah, Palin Hurts. Really quickly, really quickly though and we want to bring in Paul to talk college football we're top of the hour we need to move to the news but we're staying with sports for a second

because we haven't even trashed Alabama yet. Let's talk though really quickly the Lions who you know the word over the last three or four weeks around the NFL has been You know great team their defense is to hurt. They're not they're not the team anymore It's gonna be the Eagles my god last night the Lions responded Do you think it is are the Lions the best team in the NFL? They have been playing like it there are other contenders for that the Chiefs of course aforementioned sure But the Lions top the bottom despite the injuries. It's because really, I watched this game

against the Vikings, for those who are not familiar, unprecedented to have two 14-win teams last week of the season playing in a game like this. Never has there been two teams this strong resume-wise. And Jameer Gibbs, the guy that we're watching celebrate, he did that four times. He's not gonna be the MVP of the season. He shouldn't be. Jimmy wise and Jameer Gibbs the guy that we're watching celebrate he did that four times. He's not going to be the MVP of the season.

He shouldn't be wrong. In terms of the absolute best performance of the entire year. This is it to me the most impressive single game is Jameer Gibbs and that defense is what enables it because the Vikings again they've now lost the

Lions twice this year. They might get them again in two weeks. The Lions who we all I believe is the house pick here we sat on this set months ago and said this looks like a Super Bowl team that we got right that it absolutely is them right now. Yeah it looks like it looks like it Gibbs also an Alabama grad. That's right. Pretty darn good. Let's bring in Paul Feinbaum speaking of of Alabama, Paul, we could talk about how horrible Alabama has been this season. I could talk about and I will just say it myself. DeBoer is not cut out for the SEC.

His assistant coaches are not cut out for the SEC. Alabama can drag this out for three or four years. But if so, we're going into the I'm serious. We're going into the era of Mike Shula all over again. This is not going to get better. It was just absolutely horrific. That being said, I want to talk about something bigger. There has been a monumental shift.

And it happened in front of our eyes over the past month. And that's been the SEC, which has completely dominated college football over the last 20 years. We've pushed teams like Penn State Notre Dame around, you know, we'd sleep through national championships games against Notre Dame. It's not the losses that the SEC teams endured that I took note of. It was the line. For the first time in 20 years, you had Notre Dame pushing around Georgia

on the line. You had Michigan, a bad Michigan team, their second team pushing around Alabama's defensive offensive line. You have for the first time since the early 2000s, actually these Midwest teams competing and beating teams from the deep south. And we can put Clemson in there as well. What's happening? How has there been such a radical shift just this year? Well, Joe, it's all about the transfer portal, where backups who are waiting their turn decide to leave.

You were talking about, just think about this, Hertz for Philadelphia, Jamar Gibbs last night. What about Derrick Henry on Saturday? I mean, these are all Alabama players who some of them, Jameer Gibbs moved over to Alabama from Georgia Tech. Jalen Hertz ultimately went to Oklahoma. It's a new world in Alabama stockpiled backup defensive tackles who ended up going number one in the draft and they don't have that

anymore. They're quarterback. We watched him the other day just throw a terrible pass at the end of the game where and he replaced the aforementioned Bryce Young, who has been spectacular in recent time. And this is why Nick Saban left. He couldn't deal with it anymore. It was a year ago this week. Not that I need to remind you, Joe, on January 10th at Saban Shocked the World, but it really shouldn't have been shocking because he saw this and he wanted no part of it. He didn't want just average number one draft choices on his team. He wanted the backups to come in for that number one pick who would ultimately be a number one. And that's what happened to Georgia the other night. It was a very pedestrian performance. But what you said about about DeBoer is very accurate. He lost

so much favor, good favor in that loss the other day to Michigan. The fact that Alabama, as you and I know, Joe, because we were there together in Pasadena on January 1st of this year, lost to Michigan. And on the final day of the year, they lost to Michigan again. I mean, Mayor Bryan somewhere, somehow is rolling over in his grave. You know, Paul, I'm thinking about the SEC and I'm thinking about how your finger on their pulse must feel right now because there is a representative, right? It's Texas. But does it feel like it?

Does Texas feel like the SEC because... Nah. Okay. Yeah. There you go. Texas isn like the SEC because OK. Yeah. There you go Texas isn't the South I mean come on. There's no pride Paul there's no pride in the SEC give me the relationship dynamics with Texas right now representing the proudest conference in college football history. Well, it's a unique is about 13 years ago Texas and Oklahoma

had decided to go to the Pac-12 because they thought the academics out there, Stanford, Cal, were far superior to the SEC. They really wanted nothing to do with it. Texas was an acquisition. I mean, this was a Wall Street move, and the SEC now holds them, and it's their only hope. But tell you what's even worse than that, that guys is it's the idea if Penn State Somehow beats Notre Dame in the Orangeville on Thursday night and then Texas falls to Ohio State think about this

Oh, we have an all-big-ten National championship that will not go down well in my part of the world All right. ESPN's Paul Feinbaum and host of Pablo Torrey Finds Out on Metal Arch Media. Pablo Torrey, thank you both very much. Thank you.