Morning Joe - Morning Joe 1/8/24

Episode Date: January 8, 2024

Biden talks democracy, Trump goes off the rails

For the first time in our history, insurrectionists have come to stop the peaceful transfer of power in America. Millions of people are storming the United States. When you talk about insurrection, what they're doing, that's the real deal. That's the real deal, not patriotically and peacefully. Trump's mob wasn't a peaceful protest. It was a violent assault. Release the J6 hostages, Joe. Release them, Joe. Trump's assault on democracy isn't just part of his past. It's what he's promising for the future. Stay in those voting booths. You should stay there and watch. And if you see

bags of crap coming into the voting areas. You got to stop it. The legal path just took Trump back to the truth. That I'd won the election and he was a loser. We're going to win for the third time. And I just don't want the results of the second. For me and Kamala, our campaign is about America. It's about you. First they say, sir, how do you do it? How do you wake up in the morning and put on your pants?

Look at the authoritarian leaders and dictators Trump says he admires. President Xi of China, strong, smart, tough. Putin liked me, I liked, I got along. I got along with Kim Jong-un. Saddam Hussein, and I will say they hung that sucker and he spit right in their face, but you know, tough guy. When he visited a cemetery called Dead soldiers, suckers and losers.

John McCain, for some reason, couldn't get his arm up that day. Remember, he goes. After all we've been through in our history from independence to civil war. The Civil War was so fascinating, so horrible because I was reading something and I said, this is something that could have been negotiated. I refuse to believe that in 2024, we Americans will choose to walk away from what's made us the greatest nation. We're being laughed at all over the world. We're a failing nation. No, you're you're you're a failure as a politician and a failure in so many other ways. More like a disgrace.

Well, a failure, a failure, a disgrace. I mean, here's a guy that, again, he's talking about January 6th being peaceful. Nothing peaceful about it. Calling the rioters peaceful protesters. They go in and they beat the hell out of cops because I guess he just doesn't give a damn about police officers. He makes fun of prisoners of war while he and his daddy figure out a way for him to stay home from the war because of bone spurs. And and he said, you know, he's reading something saying, well, first of all, what what Ivana Trump told Vanity Fair was that he read Hitler's speeches, kept it by his bedside table. But while he was reading was a failure because he should have

he should have negotiated away slavery and negotiated with the South for civil war. Again, it keeps getting worse. It keeps getting worse. And by the way, for the record, Donald Trump lost 51 percent to 47 percent, 306 electoral votes to 232 electoral votes. And as Maureen Dowd said, Mika, this weekend, she said she wrote, if people don't know by now that Trump tried to overthrow the government he was running on January 6th, if they don't know that the MAGA fanatics breaking into the Capitol, beating up cops and threatening to harm Pelosi and hangpins were criminals, not patriots and hostages, as Trump calls them. If they don't know that Trump created a radical Supreme Court that is stripping women of their rights, then they don't want to know or they just don't care. But the media must pound on. And, you know, Maureen's column is called Time to Conquer Hell. And she she quoted Thomas Paine, who said these conquered. And that in this new year is exactly what Americans across the country must do. They've seen in stark relief there between Joe Biden, a pro-democracy politician, whether you support all of his views or not. And Donald Trump, a pro-authoritarian who who praises rioters that beat the hell out of cops with American flags

that our soldiers and sailors and Marines and airmen have taken into battle for hundreds of years. He considers those people patriots. It's about as stark as it can be. Absolutely. And it's important to take a look at the very different messages from President Biden and former President Trump this past weekend and moving forward. It is a significant week in the presidential race as it intertwines with the legal charges against Donald Trump. Today marks exactly one week until the Iowa caucuses. And tomorrow, Trump says he will attend an appeals court hearing on his claim of presidential immunity in the January 6 election interference case. On Thursday, Trump is expected to appear in court in New York for the closing arguments

in the fraud trial against his company, for which New York's attorney general is now seeking a much higher penalty. President Biden, meanwhile, today will be in South Carolina for what for a speech about what he sees is a hate filled agenda from the Trump campaign. Well, and at the very church in Charleston, where churchgoers were slain while in Bible study. Right. With us, we have the host of Way Too Early, White House Beer Chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, president of the National Action Network and host of MSNBC's Politics Nation, Reverend Al Sharpton,

and founder of the conservative website, The Bulwark. Charlie Sykes is with us this morning. You know, Charlie, I'm so glad you're here today. And I'm glad that we started out the way we did, that the team put together that montage. Because I tell you, I've been reading and it's mainly Republicans or it's Republican leaning people or it's it's it's it's conservatives or sort of so-called moderate conservatives who say, you know, Donald Trump, he's terrible. He's just terrible. But I can't vote for. He's terrible. But and I'm not going to even mention the name. The former. But this is Wall Street Journal opinion.

Trump summons a few reason Iowa, the former president knows his enemies. Lunacy makes his fans love him. So he encourages those enemies who may end up reelecting him. We saw this in The Wall Street Journal this weekend. We saw this in The New York Times this weekend. Again, a name I don't even care to bring up. It's saying people may look back and see if if Donald Trump is actually treated like any other politician who stole nuclear secrets and tried to steal an American election. Well, it's going to be our fault. And I just sit there thinking, Charlie, is this what pro-democracy newspapers in Bavaria were writing in 1932, 1933, going, you know, if Adolf Hitler gets to power. It's really us pro-democracy newspapers who are to blame for warning people just how dangerous this Hitler character may be. Yeah, I'm sure that Hitler derangement syndrome was a big deal back in 1932.

I mean, this is now interesting that you bring this up and the anti-anti-Trump media is already going, OK, stop exaggerating the danger of Donald Trump. You people are obsessed with Donald Trump. Why are you talking about Donald Trump? That's what, you know, Nikki Haley is accusing Chris Christie of doing. Well, the reason that people are obsessed with Donald Trump is that Donald Trump comes out and tells us every single day what he intends to do and who and who he is, you know, and you you know, you your montage show the stark contrast. But the reality is, is that Donald Trump right now is so far off the normal spectrum of American politics that it is it's it's been difficult for the last seven years to talk about it.

And it's going to be difficult for the next year without sounding like we are suffering from Trump derangement syndrome. But the reality is Donald Trump is saying is basically saying, you think that I'm dangerous? Hold my beer. This is what I'm going to do. This is what I believe. And by the way, Joe, I have to say the least plausible thing that he said over the weekend was that he was actually reading something, including a course about the history of the Civil War. I would love to know what book it was about the Civil War. And I'd be fascinated to hear his deep thoughts about he how he, Donald Trump, would have

negotiated the Civil War. You know, we focus for, what, seven days on Nikki Haley's gaffe about not being able to say that slavery was the cause of the Civil War. And yet Donald Trump basically comes out and says, yeah, maybe we should have negotiated. OK, is that going to be a story for like two minutes? This is the challenge of dealing with the guy, because the the flood of it's not just the flood of lies. It is the flood of bizarre, extreme rhetoric. The fact that he's calling the prisoners hostages, the fact that he is now going to somehow flip the word insurrection.

Watch in the next week or so as he begins to become the champion of genuine American democracy. And it's going to be a difficult task for all of us, I think, to keep up with that fire hose. Absolutely. And here's that specific what you were talking about, Charlie. A soundbite talking about reading about the Civil War, his sort of perverted take on history. Take a listen. The Civil War was so fascinating, so horrible, was so horrible, but so fascinating. It was, I don't know, it was just different. I just find it, I'm so attracted to seeing it. So many mistakes were made. See, there was something I think could have been negotiated, to be honest with you. I think you could have negotiated that.

You know, Abraham Lincoln, of course, if you negotiated it, you probably wouldn't even know who Abraham Lincoln was. So here we are, Charlie. You have Donald Trump. And there's actually there's this beautiful parallel, actually, a beautiful parallel with the anti anti Trumpists who are rising again. You know, like the phoenix from the ashes, they're rising again. There's there's there's actually a parallel here where Donald Trump is is now he's blaming Abraham Lincoln for the Civil War. By the way, there's the same guy that said he wanted to terminate the Constitution. He wanted to assassinate generals who were insufficiently disloyal to him.

He wanted to ban news networks that were insufficiently loyal to him. We could go down the list. Mike Pence deserved hanging. I mean, how many things could we go? But here we have Donald Trump blaming Abraham Lincoln for slavery. And yet you're exactly right. These people will say, oh, you should talk about Nikki Haley for two weeks on what Nikki Haley said. Somebody who's going to probably finish a distant third in Iowa and talk about it on a loop. But Donald Trump blames Abraham Lincoln for the Civil War.

And if you and I talk about it for more than three or four minutes, people who are far more conservative than than these clowns that are writing these op eds in defense of Donald Trump, then somehow that equals Trump derangement syndrome. I'm not exactly sure why Donald Trump gets a free pass on absolutely everything. Well, remember that that meme back from 2016, you know, take him seriously, but not literally or whatever. I think I think it was seriously, not literally. And the reality is that I think this is part of the rationalization process. I don't pay actually any attention to what he's saying because it doesn't matter. Well, it does matter. Reality matters. This is a man who's already shown a willingness to to overthrow a free and fair election. We've seen this. We had a million Americans die during covid because of

his of his ignorance. This is a man who, you know, by the way, thinks that magnets don't work if you drop them into water and thinks that you can inject bleach into human bodies. You know, are we deranged by pointing out how incredibly stupid all of that is? But again, this is part of the challenge because I can see the Republican Party already making its its usual shift, which is to blinker itself like we're not going to pay attention to this. We're going to go along with Donald Trump no matter what he says. And look, you know, Joe, we have talked to him. We've talked about the transformation of the Republican Party. But if you want to talk about, you know, the speed and the trajectory of this, I mean, we are in a moment now that would have been inconceivable on January 7th. But just

over the weekend, watch the way Donald Trump, the worst aspects of Donald Trump are being echoed and repeated by other Republicans. Elise Stefanik, who is number three in the Republican hierarchy, goes on the air and says, I meet the press and says, refuses to say she will certify the election. Number one, and actually defends Donald Trump's use of the term that immigrants are poisoning the blood of the country, that Hitlerian rhetoric. But, you know, not that long ago, every Republican would have either said they didn't hear it or they would have pushed back against it. They would have said, look, we are not using that kind of rhetoric. Elise Stefanik is now channeling the worst of Donald Trump. And that gives you a sense of just how awful it's become in 2024. Well, The Times had a great rundown of what happened after Trump lost, what happened on January the 6th, how Trump was pushed to

the side and how by one by one by one they all folded. And now we're seeing in the media, we're now seeing in the media because they want to get close to Donald Trump. And some media people, I guess, want to have access to him on the campaign trail. These these Republicans and can you call them Republicans? I don't know what you call them, actually, when they're quoting Hitler and they're channeling Hitler. But but but be that as it may, the transformation, it keeps going. And now we're seeing the rise once again and expect to see it in all the same spots we saw it in 2020 in that campaign.

The rise of the anti-anti-Trump forces who say, if you hold Donald Trump to account for stealing nuclear secrets, you have Trump derangement syndrome. A New York Times columnist actually this Sunday going, oh, but if you actually read the Constitution the way the Constitution should, people will look back for centuries and say this is the moment American democracy died. Because, you know, you think about those left wing radicals that are doing this. You think about those freaks at the Federalist Society, those left wing Marxist.

Wait, I'm sorry. No, wait. They're really conservative legal scholars. But that judge alluded who's been at the center of every left wing radical harebrained. Wait a second. No. Oh, wait a second. These are constitutional conservatives who are saying this. And yet you're seeing op eds in The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times. If you actually hold Donald Trump to account like you'd hold any other politician, it's only going to make him. So this is Obi-Wan Kenobi, right? This is the Obi-Wan Kenobi trick. Strike me down, constitutionalists.

And I, Trump, will only become more. No, it's not that way. Jamal Bowie wrote this this weekend. And first of all, he said in the face of violence, Trump refused repeated requests over multiple hour period that he instruct his violent supporters to disperse and leave the Capitol, instead watch the violent attack unfold on television. And not only that, but we found out from his staff that he rewound the most violent parts and watched them over and over again. Well, people, even Dan Scavino rushing in, begging him, his daughter, Ivanka Trump, rushing in, begging him to stop the riots. He refused. And Reverend Al, Jamel writes this.

Does it threaten the constitutional order to use the clear context of the Constitution to hold a former constitutional officer accountable for his efforts to overturn that order? The answer is no, of course not. There is no rule that says democracies must give endless and unlimited grace to those who use the public trust to conspire for all the world to see against him. Voters are free to choose a Republican candidate for president. They're free to choose a Republican with Trump's politics. But if we take the Constitution seriously, then Trump, by dint of his own actions, should be off the board.

And what Jamal Bowie says is that there is this belief that Donald Trump has a superpower. But in the end, this guy's superpower is just that there are people who believes that he has superpowers and we cannot treat him the way we treat other politicians. Nikki Haley says something really screwed up or refuses to even talk about slavery. And the media talks about that for weeks. Donald Trump just blamed Abraham Lincoln for the Civil War because he would not negotiate slavery with the South. What Donald Trump was saying there was, you know, Lincoln should have just let Southerners continue to have slaves. And because he didn't, Abraham Lincoln caused the Civil War.

And yet you watch these jackasses that write their newsletters, these jackasses that write op-eds in the Wall Street Journal and other... On cable networks. These jackasses on cable networks will say, you know, it's Trump derangement syndrome. But they won't even talk about it. That is actually empowering Donald Trump. Instead of just saying, you know, if a guy wants to be president of the United States

and he's blaming Abraham Lincoln for the Civil War because Lincoln refused to allow slavery to continue, maybe that's something we should focus on every day, along with all of the other deranged things this lunatic says, no, there's no doubt about it. When you hear Donald Trump, who was the insider and in my judgment, a participant of the insurrection, say that Lincoln should have negotiated the first insurrection, the Civil War. Like you can negotiate with people saying we demand the right to keep slaves. And as one that had forefathers that were slaves, to look at this election, you have the leading candidates saying you could have negotiated that away. Well, maybe we can just keep some slaves or have a time frame or whatever, but still keep slavery. That's what he's blaming Lincoln for not doing. To have another candidate not even bringing slavery up. We are dealing at a time that they are playing the game in politics of us against them, whether it's blacks, whether it's Jews, whether it's Latinos.

And we cannot stand for this. For Donald Trump to say him reading the Civil War books and saying he could have negotiated or he could see where negotiation was, it reminds me of when they asked him his favorite Bible scripture. He said all of them. Ask him what book he read. There was room to deal with the Civil War differently. He'll say all of the books because he hasn't read anything other than this kind of Hitler theory of the big lie. Throw it out there. Blame it on somebody. In Hitler's case, the Jews. And then you can advance your political career. And America should not sanction that by voting for this man in Iowa or anywhere else. And yet no prominent Republican calling him out on this. In fact,

the Iowa caucus one week from today, he is a commanding lead. And at least at this moment, expected to put up such a win. It may force Ron DeSantis out of the race. And then we see if Nikki Haley can have any sort of final stand in New Hampshire. But right now, it looks like Donald Trump is on a glide path to the GOP nomination, which would set up a rematch with President Joe Biden. And that is someone, President Biden, who is calling out Donald Trump. And we should not look past the president's speech on Friday, some of his toughest language yet about his predecessor. We recall when Biden first took office, he wouldn't even say Trump's name. He thought it was we should be moving on as a nation. And he has been. And I've reported this privately,

really disappointed in not just the Republican Party, but voters in some ways that Trump still has. Trump still has this power. He still has this hold. And it's clear he and his team say we have to call it out. He called Trump despicable. As we mentioned, we played earlier in the morning when he was talking about how Trump not just laughed at some of the January 6th violence, but also about the hammer attack to Paul Pelosi's skull. And Biden called Trump a sick and was very clear what that next word meant to be before he caught himself. And this is what the campaign is. And Joe and Mika, we've been talking for months now about the need to draw these contrasts, to really lay out the stakes for the American people. And we have seen an accelerated version of that from President Biden. We saw it on Friday at Valid Forge.

We'll hear from him again today in Charleston, South Carolina, at the site of that racist mass shooting. He's making clear for the American people just what we'd be getting if Donald Trump wins again. I mean, if you look at the danger this country is facing, Joe, like Elise Stefanik is less shocking. I'm thinking about Republican members of the Senate, maybe those who haven't really spoken out, but you know that they don't believe in the things that Donald Trump is saying. Definitely Republicans in the House, Republican party leaders, Republican candidates. Why won't you stand up?

I mean, are you so devoid of any values? Do you so want to destroy your party? Do you want to distort the meaning of the Constitution? Do you have any core values? At some point, do Republicans, even those who may not have a stake in this, who could sit in their little Senate jobs and wait for the next person to come along. Shouldn't Republicans be standing up at this point together and saying what's right and reclaiming their party? What more needs to happen with Donald Trump for them to realize that they all need to do something?

Seven years? Eight years? How long have we been saying this? Joe Biden doesn't have to be your number one choice, but I'm thinking America might be. How long have we been saying this? Joe Biden doesn't have to be your number one choice, but I'm thinking America might be. How long have we been asking this question, though? I mean, you you actually have magazines that came out and had had covers talking about being never Trump. And then they engaged in the most rank anti anti Trumpism. You had other people doing the same. You talk about Elise Stefanik. We met her. I think one of her first days in Congress, talked to her and walked away thinking what

everybody who talked to her back then thought was, wow, this is this is this is a good this is this is a good sign. I'm thinking of the more seasoned members of Congress. She's because she totally abandoned every value she ever had when it came to Donald Trump. And because she ran straight towards the riots, defending the riots, defending the worst aspects of Trumpism. She is in a powerful position right now. And there are other people like her that are in a powerful position. Mike Johnson, who's Speaker of the House, he points because the Bible's my, if you want to know how I'm governed, I'm governed by the Bible. And then he gets to power by what? The big lie.

What did Jesus say? Blessed are the people who actually spread lies and conspiracy. I didn't see that, Rev, in the Beatitudes. And yet you have all these people that are twisting and perverting, in Mike Johnson's case, the words of Jesus talking about I'm governed by Jesus when in fact he's he got to power by the big lie and basically admitted to Liz Cheney that he knew it was a lie, but he just had to get in Donald Trump's, you know, in Donald Trump's orbit. You have these people. And to answer Mika's question, what is it? It's all about power. And we've all been around politicians where they'll sort of move a little this way, move a little that way, be a little pragmatic here, be a little compromising there to get power. In Donald Trump's case, there is no middle ground here. You are either for the continuation of American democracy or you're for

a man who has promised to terminate the Constitution, execute generals, ban entire news networks and and and exact revenge. Throw just said, I will throw my opponents in jail. That is what every one of these Republicans who are trying to have it both ways are supporting. And these cowards who are might as well go back and read pro-democracy newspapers apologizing for Adolf Hitler in the early 1930s. These cowards are a part of this as well now, where they're saying if you speak out against the tyranny of Donald Trump and what he promises to bring on America, then you are causing the rise of Donald Trump. What would John McCain say? No, and that is exactly how fascism started being purported and

represented in this country in the early part of the 20th century, silver shirts movement and other movements. And now you have people that are now actually distorting the Bible and distorting Christianity as they pay homage to a man that has practiced every divisive, hateful, and in many ways, in my opinion, anti the Beatitudes, as you mentioned, the Beatitudes that we've ever seen in the White House. And they bow to him. You know, there's a scripture that says, choose ye this day whom ye shall serve. I think the speaker needs to answer that question. If he's really saying he's this fundamental practicing Christian, he needs to answer who's he really serving, Christ or Trump, when he's doing the things that he's doing as Speaker of the House. I was burying my mom with a casket right behind me, two feet behind me. Somebody I grew up with who came behind and started yelling at me in the middle of First

Baptist Church, Pensacola, telling me that that Donald Trump was a man that Jesus put in place. And how dare I? I will not tell you. I will not tell you the brief five second fire and brimstone sermon I gave her in front of my mother's gasket. But let me assure you, my mother endorses that message. Absolutely. Charlie, Charlie Sykes, we will give you the final word one week away from Iowa. You know, we've seen so much cowardice, but we've also seen this, the thoroughness of the corruption,

the number of Republicans that actually have decided perhaps they believe these things. And while we're talking about corrupt politicians, I do think we need to take a moment to think about what's happened to the Republican voters. This is a Republican voter problem as well as a Republican leader problem. The fact that Donald Trump is on the glide path is because 50, 60 percent of Republicans out there in the world, you know, Americans, our neighbors have looked at him and said, yeah, we think that he is a he's a plausible presidential candidate. And so, yeah, I've been disillusioned. My soul has been crushed by all the cowardice of Republican leaders.

But it is amazing to watch what Republican voters have are willing to accept and what they are and then in turn demanding from their political leadership. And in many ways, that's the scariest thing of all. Yeah. You know, the choice is not Donald Trump or AOC, which is what you used to always hear. Oh, it's Donald Trump or AOC. It's Donald Trump or this or Donald Trump or that. No, right now it's Donald Trump or Ron DeSantis, Donald Trump or Nikki Haley, Donald Trump or Chris Christie. Donald Trump are people who share a lot of his political ideology. Not really, because Donald Trump has no political ideology. So it's only about him. But people have Republican ideology, traditional Republican ideology.

They were all too scared, except for Chris Christie to go after Trump. I know. But the point is, this is not an either or vote right or left. You actually have some people that that call themselves conservatives who are far more conservative than Donald Trump that people in Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina and other states could vote for. The bulwarks, Charlie Sykes, thank you very much. And coming up on Morning Joe, why America's top defense official is facing backlash this morning for not disclosing a recent hospitalization, which included time in the ICU.

We'll have the latest on the condition of Secretary Lloyd Austin and reaction from the White House. Plus, President Biden on the campaign trail today heading to South Carolina, where he will continue to warn voters of the threat of another Trump presidency. Chairman of the DNC, Jamie Harrison, joins us from South Carolina to talk about Biden's big campaign push. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. Welcome back. Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin was admitted to the intensive care unit at Walter Reed National Military Medical Center on Monday, January 1st, but it was not made public until the following Friday. The Pentagon says the retired Army general sought help after experiencing severe pain from an elective medical procedure that he had done last month.

Senior Biden administration officials tell NBC News the Pentagon waited three days to tell the White House about Austin's hospitalization. The secretary released a statement over the weekend, taking full responsibility for not disclosing his medical condition, saying he understands the concerns about transparency and he, quote, could have done a better job ensuring the public was appropriately informed. Austin is still in the hospital, but the Pentagon says he's resumed his duties Friday evening and is recovering well. Joining us now, NBC News national security and military correspondent Courtney Kuby.

Courtney, what more do we know? There are a lot of questions here about disclosure and also who was in charge. Yeah, I mean, the details, as we learn every new detail about this entire incident, it's more of a head scratching scenario. So, as you said, Secretary Austin, he was admitted to the hospital on Monday, New Year's Day, so a week ago today. We now know that he had some sort of an elective medical procedure about a week earlier on December 22nd. It required an overnight stay at the hospital at Walter Reed.

He was released on the 23rd. But on New Year's Day, he started having severe pains and was taken to the hospital where he has now been for a week, Mika. And while he was there, he was put into the ICU. Now, fast forward to last Friday, when all week long, we were told that Secretary Austin was on leave and no one really had any idea that he was hospitalized all week long, let alone that he was in the ICU. And in fact, it took us digging to expose that fact that he was not just in the hospital, but that he was in intensive care. Now, we still don't know what the selective medical

procedure is. And frankly, we still don't know how severe his situation, his medical, his medical case was at any point during this hospitalization. What we know is that on Tuesday, this is now January 2nd, all of his responsibilities were transferred to Deputy Secretary of Defense Kathleen Hicks. Now, she was on vacation in Puerto Rico at the time. She was not told why she was assuming the responsibilities of the secretary until two days later on Thursday. According to a defense official, as soon as she was told that, she started making plans to come back to the U.S., but was told, oh, it's okay, he's going to resume his duties soon anyway, so don't worry about it. And as this has unfolded, we've also learned, Mika, as you said, that in fact, he did not

notify, nor anyone on his staff notify the White House of this. President Biden, National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan, they didn't find out about this hospitalization until Thursday. So the reality is there are still a lot more questions than there are answers about this whole situation. What we also know is, as you said, Secretary Austin has taken responsibility for not disclosing this publicly to the media. But we still haven't heard exactly why it was that the White House wasn't notified. Of course, Secretary Austin is in the chain, the nuclear chain of command. The White House, the National Military Command Center all have to know where he is and whether he's accessible at all times in case, you know, heaven forbid, there is some sort of an attack on the United States or even an attack on Washington, D.C., that he needs to be directly involved in a potential response to. What we did learn late last night was that

his chief of staff, Kelly Maxman, was sick at the time. And now the Pentagon is saying that that was the reason that the White House wasn't notified until Thursday. The reality is that really just doesn't pass the smell test. It doesn't make sense that no one else would have notified the White House in three days. Mika and Joe. NBC News, national security and military correspondent, Courtney Kuby. Thank you very much. And Courtney brings up that if something were to happen, there was some sort of attack on the U.S. You'd need to know where the secretary of defense is and be able to reach him immediately. Let's just keep in mind that that's that's the unthinkable right now. There are two realities, two hot water, hot wars going on that the United States is directly involved with. Right. And the threat of a much, much larger

regional war breaking out in the Middle East, Lebanon, Iran. You've got obviously what's going on in Ukraine. You have the possibility all the time of a war possibly breaking out in China and Taiwan. So Jonathan Lemire, we've we know Secretary Austin like him value his service to America. This does remind me, though, it seems like a lifetime ago when we were on this show and started reading an interview. Stan McChrystal, what Stan McChrystal was saying about Barack Obama back in 2010. And I just said it then. You if you're president, United States, you're the commander in chief. You've got a chain of command.

And just like you can't have a runaway general that's mocking the president of the United States to a reporter, you you certainly can't have a secretary of defense that goes goes missing for three, four days. And I it's terrible. I hope the general is doing better. I hope the secretary is doing better. That said, though. He does not have a responsibility to tell the media that he's in the hospital. He does, the chain of command, have a responsibility to tell the president of the United States what's going on. I mean, it's shocking that Joe Biden didn't know.

It's shocking that Jake Sullivan didn't know. It's shocking that all of these people that nobody in the White House knew that have been working in lockstep, whether it's dealing with Israel, whether it's dealing with Ukraine, whether it's dealing with China, whether it's dealing with all the other problems out there.

I don't, I'm just going to say this. I don't see how a guy disappears for three days and doesn't tell the president of the United States, the commander in chief, the White House that he's gone and continues working in that position. I just don't. And I, I, I like secretary. I think Secretary Austin's done a wonderful job. This is just one of those very clear cut issues. Yeah, no, there's no doubt it's a it's a bad one. I mean, White House, I've been reporting on this story for days now. And when Secretary Austin's one of his subordinates showed up at a White House meeting at the end of last week,

Jake Sullivan was confused. Like, where's the secretary? What's going on? And only after that were they informed that the secretary was in the hospital? And we're right to underscore the timing here. It comes as the U.S. is ramping up its presence in the Red Sea, going after the Houthis after an airstrike called in by the U.S. That Secretary Austin had approved pre-hospitalization. But it's a time of real rising tensions in the Middle East, Ukraine as well. We're not clear if the Congress is going to pass funding to support Kyiv. It is stunning that this. Jonathan, can I ask you a question?

Yes. Can I ask you, do you have it confirmed? Is it rock solid confirmed that the secretary of defense did not notify the commander in chief that that he was he was not at his post for three days. Is that confirmed? It is. Are we going to hear, oh, they talked on the side and no. Are you hearing from the White House that the commander in chief. Was unaware of the fact that the secretary of defense was not at his post for three days. Yeah, we and others have reported for days now that President Biden did not know. So if suddenly another narrative was to be presented, that's not one known to not just reporters, but senior White House staff.

There is no belief that Secretary of Defense Austin notified President Biden about what had happened. Now, the two men have spoken and we are told by senior officials that for now, Secretary of Austin's job is safe. We know that President Biden does not like firing people. We know President Biden is fond of Secretary Austin. We also know President Biden is very proud of the continuity. He has had no, very little turnover in his senior staff since taking office. In fact, only one cabinet member departure, which is pretty remarkable, heading in here into his fourth year in office. And I think also because this is such a tense time around the globe, there's a sense that this would not be a good time to change leadership at the Pentagon. So things, of course, could change. There's been a real uproar from both Republicans, but also we should note some Democrats about the real breakdown in communication here. And there's been explanations that Secretary of Austin is a very

private man. He doesn't like talking about things regarding his personal life and a health issue like this. That said, it is a breakdown in the chain of command. And there will be continue to be real questions raised as to what happened, even if for now, and I stress for now, Secretary Vosk's job seems secure. Yeah, all good points. And we'll be following this. President Biden, meanwhile, will travel to Charleston, South Carolina later today to deliver a campaign speech at the Mother Emanuel Church, which is the site of the 2015 mass shooting where an admitted white supremacist murdered nine black parishioners during a Bible study. The Biden campaign says his speech will note it is the responsibility of elected officials to root out the Trump campaign, saying it's fueled by a hate filled agenda that runs counter to what America is. And you, of course, Reverend Al, you, of course, have Republican politicians who get very incensed when you start talking about white supremacy, some even suggesting there's no such thing, that it's made up by the media.

No, and I think that by President Biden going back to Charleston today, to Mother Emanuel, underscores how ludicrous it is to deny white supremacy. The one who killed these nine people at Bible study, including the pastor who I knew, Reverend Pinkley. He said himself, the shooter, that I'm a white supremacist. This is not something that somebody put on him. And I remember you and Mika Joe going down and did this show from in front of the church. Not days after that, I was there with you. I spoke at two of the funerals and the whole country gripped with the fact that white supremacy was alive and well. And for the president to go and underscore that today, I think is very important because it gives us reason to be

concerned about those that try to mainstream that into the American political contest of the year. Joining us now from South Carolina is the chairman of the Democratic National Committee, Jamie Harrison. Jamie, what are you expecting to hear from the president today and how important is it that he makes the distinction, he makes the parallel, he makes the direct connection between Donald Trump and white supremacy. Well, Joe and Mika, it's so great to see all of you right now. You know, today's visit for the president is going to be a pretty emotional one for many of us here in South Carolina. You know, if you've ever been to South Carolina, you know the significance of Mother Emanuel Church,

not just to folks in Charleston, but I think to Black folks throughout the South. This was a place where churchgoers met in secret when Black churches were banned throughout the South. It was a place where Black South Carolinians came together in 1822 to organize a slave revolt. And it was also the place where non-beautiful souls were taken away from us one June night in 2015. So it's going to be this is not a campaign stop. This is this is really one of those moments in which we're going to see who Joe Biden is. This is a man with moral clarity, but this is also a man that when there were no cameras, he and Dr. Biden went to worship with the families and the parishioners at Mother Emanuel after that massacre. We all know about Barack Obama being there and singing Amazing Grace, but many people don't know that Joe Biden and Dr. Biden went there to worship with those parishioners.

He embodies that whole notion, Reb, as you know, weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning. And he is a man who has seen so much pain, decided to go and express that there is light in the morning. And so he's going to be here to express freedom, that black folks should be able to go and pray in their church freely without having to look around their shoulders, worried about whether or not somebody's come to take away their lives just because of the color of their skin. And so it is going to be an emotional thing for us, Mika.

I think it will be emotional for the president as well to come back to that church, to come back with those families impacted, to come back to the state of South Carolina and to talk about freedom and the importance of freedom. If anybody knows freedom, black folks in this country understand the struggle. We continue to struggle for freedom in this nation. And I think Joe Biden is going to speak to that today. Chairman Harrison, one of the things that came to mind when it was announced he was going back to Charleston to Mother Emanuel, as I remember in January of 2020, he spoke for our Martin Luther King Breakfast National Action Network in Washington.

And he pulled Martin Luther King the third night to the side and said that this guy, what he did with Charlottesville, talking about Trump and talking about how some of these good people on both sides? I think I really am going to run. And that's when we first started hearing why he wanted to run. And then he did a little while later run. Talk about how he has really tried to deal with this issue of race and anti-Semitism because Charlottesville, they were marching against both blacks and Jews, against Islamophobia. Talk about how this is core to him. Contrasted with a guy like Donald Trump, who's now talking coming into this weekend about Lincoln could have negotiated the Civil War

or a former governor of your state in South Carolina that acts like slavery wasn't a central part of what the Civil War was about. You're the chairman of the party. The contrast I want you to talk about between the Republican candidates and this president. Well, this is the thing about Joe Biden. The contrast is so clear between himself and MAGA Republicans like Donald Trump and Nikki Haley. He got into this race because he said we're battling for the soul of the nation, for the soul of the nation. And that battle still continues today. When you, as governor of South Carolina, former governor of South Carolina, the reason why secession happened here in the state, the first state to do it, the reason why it happened is because of slavery, and it's even

listed in the Articles of Secession. You would think a person who was president of the party of Lincoln would understand the importance of a battle for this nation's soul during the Civil War and would celebrate that and instead talk about negotiating whether or not slavery is right or wrong. Joe Biden understands very, very clearly what this battle is all about and how core and how central black folks are to this battle. When you think about everything he's done, the first thing he did even before he became the president of the United States, African-American woman vice president, breaking through that glass ceiling, African-American woman on the Supreme Court, breaking through that tradition to make sure that that voice was represented. So instead of having black folks at the back of the bus under Joe Biden, we are driving the bus. And that's what's so important

right now and why I'm so proud. I'm the second person to be elected chair of the black person to be elected chair of the DNC, third black person to hold this role. But it was because of Joe Biden saying that, let's give this guy a chance. Let's have this voice represented in terms of how this party moves forward. And I can go over and over again of how he has done this. So this is at core and central who he is. He's not going to run away from it. It is not about something that is politically poll tested. It is about who Joe Biden is and what he fights for each and every day for all of Americans, but specifically so that black Americans understand that he sees them, that he hears them and that he's fighting for them

every single day. All right, DNC Chairman Jamie Harrison, thank you so much. As always, we greatly appreciate it. Jonathan O'Meara, Jamie and the chairman and Reverend Al both talked about Charlottesville, talked about how that started, made Joe Biden understand that he needed to run in 2020. You look at what's going to be happening in Charleston, South Carolina today. There certainly are tragic echoes of Charlottesville and what happened here in 2015. You look also at what Donald Trump said about the Civil War. We flashed up a headline that said, you know, Trump says Lincoln could have avoided Civil War. Historians disagree. Again, it's just such lunacy. You might as well have a headline. Trump says that Abraham Lincoln

was a zombie Martian. Historians disagree. I mean, there's just no suggestion. Short of allowing slavery to continue in the South, that that could happen. But again, it shows what's at stake here. Donald Trump, I don't know if he's even trying to rewrite history, seems to be suggesting America would have been better off with slavery continuing. Trump also said over the weekend that had he run against Abraham Lincoln, he'd have beaten him by about 30 points. I think we can assume that historians would disagree with that, too. There's no doubt here that this is an animating

principle for Joe Biden. This is why he ran in 2020, what happened in Charlottesville. He talks about that frequently. We know he has connected that extremism, that hateful rhetoric and at times violence with what Donald Trump has unearthed for this country, that he has given license to a lot of this anger and racism and the worst of us. And that is connected to Trump being a danger to democracy, which we've heard from the president throughout his time in office. And then again, Friday in Valley Forge, we'll hear a variation of that today. We should also note South Carolina, this is a political stop because South Carolina is the first Democratic primary with their new calendar. It also is a place where President Biden is going to really try to try to hone his pitch to black voters again, because

polling suggests that his support there has really slipped. And perhaps one of his top allies is Congressman Jim Clyburn, who, of course, it was his endorsement back in 2020 that kind of opened the door for Biden's nomination. And Clyburn gave an interview over the weekend where he acknowledged he is, quote, very concerned about President Biden's standing with black voters. He went on to say that though he thinks the president has done a good job, quote, my problem is that we have not been able to break through the MAGA wall in order to get to people exactly what this president has done. And I think even Joe Biden's staunchest supporters will acknowledge there's been a real communication breakdown that his team and the president himself have struggled selling his

accomplishments. Now, that said, he was clear eyed and forceful on Friday. And I suspect we will hear the more from the same today, Reverend Al, because this is a this is a demographic voters of color, particularly black voters. He simply can't afford to lose. He can't afford not only to lose them, he can't afford a low turnout. And I think that just as he came to South Carolina in the primaries, when he finally got in the race and they energized his campaign after he did not do well in Iowa and New Hampshire and Clyburn endorsed him and he went to the head of the class, so to speak. I think that that can happen today when he reminds the nation and black voters what white supremacy can do. And when you have people soft on that, that take back the White House, what it could lead to. All right. Still ahead. We are going to lighten things up on unless you're an Eagles fan. Then we're not ESPN's Pablo Torre

joins us with a look at the NFL playoff picture, which is now set. Morning Joe will be right back. Beautiful shot of New York City as the sun comes up over the Big Apple. Former President Donald Trump says he will attend an appeals court hearing on his claim of presidential immunity tomorrow. Trump's lawyers will present oral arguments before a three-judge panel that the former president is protected from federal charges that he illegally tried to overturn the 2020 election. Judge Tanya Chutkan, the judge overseeing the election interference case, initially rejected that claim, but last month put a hold on the trial while the Trump team moves forward with an appeal. Last week, Trump's team said special counsel Jack Smith and federal prosecutors

should be held in contempt because they continued working while the case is on hold. So he's going to lose that. And it's unusual that he's going there. If you're wondering why he's going there and going to other trials, it's because it's his best. Yeah, it's really his best campaign move. Well, Republicans love that he's he commits fraud and Republicans love that he steals nuclear secrets. And I have no direct evidence of that other than looking at his poll numbers that when it comes out that he's actually committed fraud, which people know he's committed fraud. And when they find out that he's stolen nuclear secrets, his numbers go up. Right.

I think that's why he's showing up at that one. But for this next one, he's showing up because this is about his bottom line. New York Attorney General is now seeking $370 million as a penalty against Donald Trump and his company, just slightly up from the last request. Letitia James had originally asked for $250 million when the civil fraud lawsuit was filed in 2022. According to court documents, the new request takes into account Trump's profits

from deals involving the old post office hotel lease in Washington, D.C., as well as the Ferry Point golf course in New York and the interest allegedly saved through fraud. James is accusing the Trump organization of misleading lenders and insurance companies by inflating Trump's net worth. The former president denies any wrongdoing, although the judge has already decided he did a lot wrong in terms of fraud, that he's a fraud. Closing arguments are scheduled for Thursday. Trump is expected to appear in court for that to find out how much if he has to pay for what he's already found. For his sake, I hope it's over like twenty five dollars and seventy five cents. I mean, he does not have that money. She's asking for a lot. I wonder what happens if she gets it. Well, I don't know how he pays it. I don't think he has that much money.

And the U.S. Supreme Court has agreed to hear arguments for the Colorado case that ruled former President Trump ineligible to run for federal office. The justices will review the decision from the Colorado State Supreme Court that said the former president engaged in insurrection on January 6th and therefore is barred from the ballot by the 14th Amendment. The case will be argued before SCOTUS on an accelerated timeline, with proceedings beginning on February 8th. The former president commented on the Supreme Court's decision to hear the case at a rally in Iowa on Friday. Some big things going in there. I just saw the Supreme Court just before I came.

I got some beauties today. I had the one and then I had the other. The Supreme Court is taking the case from Colorado. And so they'll make a decision. And they're saying, oh, Trump owns the Supreme Court. He owns it. He owns it. If they make a decision for him, it will be terrible. It'll ruin their reputations. He owns the Supreme Court. He put on three judges. He owns the Supreme Court. If they rule in his favor, it will be horrible for them. And I just hope we get fair treatment,

because if we don't, our country's in big, big trouble. Does everybody understand what I'm saying? I think so. I understand. Wow. Nothing of what you're saying. Let's bring in right now the president, the CEO of the National Constitution Center and professor of law at George Washington University, Jeffrey Rosen. He's also a contributing writer at The Atlantic. Jeffrey, a lot to talk about right now, but first let's talk about the last issue, and that is the Colorado case going before the United States Supreme Court. I am skeptical that the court will follow what the Colorado Supreme Court did, But I've heard arguments on both sides, legal arguments on both sides from actually conservatives suggesting if you're a constitutional

conservative like Judge Ludwig, that the court should uphold the Colorado decision. What are your what are your views on how this is going to go? Absolutely. As you say, it really poses a clash for the court between the conservative justices commitment to textualism and originalism and the desire to find a pragmatic solution. Conservative scholars like Judge Luddig have argued powerfully that the text of the Constitution requires Trump's exclusion from the ballot and that the 14th Amendment is self-executing. In other words, there's no need for Congress to pass enabling legislation before people can be disqualified. And therefore, the justices who ordinarily care about text and history should disqualify him.

On the other hand, as you suggested, they may be reluctant to kick him off the ballot and be concerned about the chaos that would result. And that threat that President Trump just made at the end of the clip you played is really sobering. And for all those reasons, the justices might not intervene. Another real dilemma for them is Bush v. Gore. In Bush v. Gore, they exalted pragmatic considerations like avoiding chaos and refuse to follow original understanding. Why shouldn't they follow original understanding here? So it's just no easy answer for the court, but a very dramatic clash between the ordinary way that they go about these cases and the way that they may be inclined to rule this time.

Such a high stakes decision indeed. Jeffrey, let's turn to one of the other headlines we just touched upon, which is Trump's claim of immunity. We know that's going to appeal. We have a hearing this week on that forecast for us, if you will, how you see that playing out, not just this week, but potentially in the months ahead? Well, the court has decided not to intervene for now. Many people expect the D.C. courts to reject a sweeping claim of presidential immunity. Never before has the court suggested that a president is immune from all criminal prosecution, quite the contrary. And then the question is, do the justices just want to affirm that without hearing it themselves or would they like to hear full arguments to reach a contrary, to affirm?

Because I don't think anyone expects a really sweeping immunity claim to go forward. Around the same time, they'll be hearing the obstruction claim that Jack Smith has raised, whether or not President Trump can be charged with obstruction of Congress in connection with January 6th, and balancing those two cases at the same time as Colorado is just going to put them at the center of the election. So on Colorado, would you be surprised if it were 9-0, if we're a 9-0 ruling overturning the Colorado case? You know, that's what Chief Justice Roberts is going to want.

All of the justices would prefer a 9-0. The idea of a 6-3 or a 5-4 on this one would be devastating for the court completely. It's just hard to think of what a really clear 9-0 would look like. But if it exists, they'll come up with it. Right. All right. Jeff Rosen, thank you so much. Thank you. His new book is entitled A Pursuit of Happiness. How classical writers of virtue inspired the lives of the founders and defined America. It will be published on February 13th. Can't wait. Look forward to that. I cannot wait to read that. Jeffrey, come back, please.