Morning Joe - Morning Joe 2/1/23

Episode Date: February 1, 2023

Biden and McCarthy clash over debt ceiling ahead of first big meeting

He still has a lot of popularity. If he runs again in 2024, will you support him? Yes. If he decides that he's going to run, would that preclude any sort of run that you would possibly make yourself? I would not run if President Trump ran. So that was former South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley almost two years ago, but it seems she's changed her mind a bit about taking on the former president. She is now expected to challenge Donald Trump in the race for the Republican nomination. And she's not the only former governor eyeing a presidential bid. Meanwhile, the Trump-DeSantis rivalry is heating up.

We'll show you how the Florida governor responded to the former president's COVID criticism. Also ahead, we'll take a look at the RNC's 2024 playbook as party leaders want to double down on an issue that lost them. The elections in the midterms. And they want to go off and running, running straight into and today, President Joe Biden and Speaker Kevin McCarthy sit down at the White House in hopes of ending the standoff over the debt ceiling. Plus, Reverend Al Sharpton joins us live from Memphis ahead of his eulogy today at the funeral for Tyree Nichols. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Wednesday, February 1st, along with Joe. Good to have you back, Willie and me.

We have those way too early. White House Bureau Chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, U.S. Special Correspondent for BBC News, Katty Kaye is with us and member of the New York Times editorial board, Mara Gay. So we start this morning with today's high stakes meeting between President Joe Biden and House Speaker Kevin McCarthy. Their first in-person meeting today since McCarthy took the gavel. Their focus, ending the standoff over the debt ceiling. Ahead of their sit down, top Biden advisors sent McCarthy a memo asking him to make a commitment that the U.S. will not default on its debt.

Also, a pledge to release a budget proposal laying out the Republicans' fiscal goals. The letter also reaffirms the Biden administration's consistent messaging that the White House wants a clean debt ceiling raised with no concessions. In response, Kevin McCarthy had this to say. Well, you know, the best way they can do that is to say they're willing to negotiate, because the only irresponsible way is to play a political game and say we're not going to talk about it. It sounds pretty childish to me. Aha. The New York Times reports, while Republicans in recent weeks have insisted that they want structural fiscal changes in exchange for voting to raise the borrowing cap.

But they have so far declined to offer a cohesive plan. Here's the thing. The Times goes on and says basically the Republicans are fighting between themselves, Willie. They don't know how to cut the budget. They don't know how to get to a balanced budget in 10 years. They're just going to go go generally and say it's childish. So, Willie, so so what's so fascinating here is the Republicans are doing to Joe Biden exactly what the most extreme members of the Republican caucus did to Kevin McCarthy, where Kevin McCarthy said, what do you need? What do you need? What do you give you what you need for the votes? What do you need? And they wouldn't

tell him. They just they just talk about being childish. They wanted to be on TV. They wanted to be interviewed. They really didn't have five, six, seven of them. As Marjorie Taylor Greene says, talk about an authority on them, says that they were just being destructive. So that's not me saying it. Everybody inside the caucus was saying it. So now they're doing the same thing to Joe Biden, where they're saying, oh, well, we're going to destroy the economy. We're going to cost millions of people to lose their jobs. We're going to wreck people's retirement. We're going to cost interest rates to go up. We're going to default on the dollar, on the U.S. economy. But we're not going to tell you what you can do to avert it. They won't get specific. And here's the reason why, because they've already actually told us

they want to cut Social Security. They want to cut Medicare. They want to slash defense spending. They want to defund the FBI. They want to make us less secure than ever before at one of the most dangerous times in our lifetime. So, yeah, of course, they don't want to talk about it. So if I'm Joe Biden, I don't negotiate with people that aren't putting their demands on the table. Why should he negotiate against himself? He shouldn't. He's not going to. And let these clowns who've run around bragging about cutting Social Security and Medicare and saying they're going to slash the defense by seventy five billion dollars and they're going to defund the FBI. Go ahead. Let them try it.

They'll lose again. It's almost disorienting, isn't it? If someone who has served in Congress, Joe, in the Republican Party and someone who's studied it for so long to say, yeah, we've got to slash defense spending. But that is the official position of many Republicans right now. And again, it goes back to those negotiations that Kevin McCarthy had with those 20 or so members of the House. What do you need from me so that I can get your vote to become Speaker of the House? That's my dream. What do you need? So we're about to learn what those promises were. And Jonathan Lemire, the White House has said plainly, the debt ceiling

is not a bargaining chip. We're not going to negotiate with you in the full faith and credit of the United States government. Get that done. We can talk about budgets another time. There are some Republican members talking about things like federal spending caps and things like that, but not with any degree of specificity in terms of something that could be negotiated today between the president and the speaker. Yeah, the White House is playing about two things. We're not going to negotiate over the debt ceiling. And let's see your plan so we can actually start negotiating. And the Republicans aren't providing it because they don't seem to have it. Republicans, I've talked the last couple of days, you know, they do seem to be moving away. McCarthy has said publicly moving away from the idea of cutting Social Security and Medicare, even though he had said previously that would be on the table. Even Donald Trump, of all people, has said that would be a bad idea. So then if you look around, where else are you going to cut from? And a lot of Republicans are growing nervous that it could be defense. Like, well, we can't be the party that slashes defense spending, particularly not now. So it doesn't seem like McCarthy's got many cards to play as he heads into this meeting. I

mean, expectations, shall we say, are modest for what will happen this afternoon, 3.15 p.m. between President Biden and McCarthy. It is a good sign. Aides from both sides have said to me that they're talking at all. But this is an introductory meeting. Very little is going to happen. Expect a lot of political posturing. And we're going to head towards that June deadline before anything really concrete happens. When Republicans start talking about slashing, they always end up going to Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security. And they can talk about reforming

it. They can talk about restructuring it. They can talk about saving it by slashing money. But that's always where they go. It's always where Newt wanted to go. That's that's always where Republicans go. And so it's not if they're talking about this much money, it's not just a question of are they going to cut Social Security and Medicare? Or are they going to cut defense? They're going to do all of it. And they're now talking about defunding law enforcement. They're now talking about defunding the FBI. They're going to do all of that. That's the only way they get there from here. So why does Kevin McCarthy look more confused than ever? Why does he look more lost than ever? Because he knows

the truth. He knows the truth. For them to do what he promised them to do, he's going to have to slash Social Security. He's going to have to slash Medicare. He's going to have to slash Medicaid. He's going to have to cut defense spending. And it's so disingenuous, Katty. Listen, I we just can't say this enough, OK? When you when you pay the debt ceiling that has to be taken care of. It has to be raised not for future spending. It has to be raised because of the Trump tax cuts, because of all the money that was taken out because of the Trump tax cuts. So what they're saying is, all right, so we blew a hole in the national debt sky high from our spending in 2017, 2018, 2019 and 2020 and with the Trump tax cuts. And because we drove up the debt to record levels and had the biggest deficits ever.

And now we have to pay for that. We're going to make you agree to slash Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and defense spending. If I'm Biden, I just laugh. I laugh at him and say, try try somebody else. You've obviously confused me for somebody who owns a golf course in South Florida. I'm not that dumb. Yeah, I mean, New York Times did a good amount of analysis on this. And if you look at how the debt has grown over the last, since the beginning of the century, basically it grew under Bush. It grew again under Obama and it grew massively under Donald Trump, $8 trillion, $3 trillion of which was before we even got to COVID. And there was a lot of COVID spending, of course, but this was really because

of those tax cuts that you mentioned. So this was Trump's causing of where we are at the moment. And no Republican, especially not Speaker McCarthy, is going to want to jeopardize those members who are in more moderate seats, who are in slightly bluer seats, actually any member, by going back and saying, oh, by the way, we're cutting all of those things that seniors, who might be the people who are voting for us, really need at the moment,

and particularly need when economic times are precarious. And if we crash the economy, then their economic standing will be even more. It reminds me slightly of the number of times Republicans sunk the table and said that they were going to get rid of Obamacare. And that became everybody's campaign slogan. That was what they were going to do. That was what they committed to doing. And guess what? There was never a plan with which to replace it. We're slightly in that kind of position at the moment. Never a plan. Never a plan. This is all gesturing. This is governing by gesturing. And it hasn't served them well. It hasn't served them well. And Maura, why don't we just again, the New York Times talked about it. I've talked about it an awful lot. I talked about it while

Trump was president. Donald Trump and Kevin McCarthy and all of these Republicans who claim to be so conservative drove the federal debt up more in four years under Donald Trump's presidency than the United States of America did its first 225 years as a nation. Four years, Trump and these Republicans, Kevin McCarthy, claiming to be conservative, drove up the national debt more than the United States of America did the first, what, the first 42, 43 presidents, the first 225 years of of of this country. It's just unbelievable how reckless they are. And now they're claiming they like they're acting self-righteous about this. Well, and if you're Joe Biden, you've got to try and remember and remind the American

people that they did that. They drove up that debt. As you mentioned, they got the deepest they got us the deepest in that they did that. They drove up that debt, as you mentioned. They got the deepest, they got us the deepest in debt during those years by giving tax cuts to rich people, to extremely rich Americans, to a small number of them. And those kind of go on for years,

whereas other Americans got a smaller break. So I think this is a time for the president to remind Americans of that. But it's also worth pausing and just marveling at just how kind of completely oppositional these kind of priorities are that the Republicans are focused on, that Kevin McCarthy is focused on, to what the American people care about. I mean, there's something very strange. We talk a lot about the party, the Republican Party, becoming more anti-democratic. Well, if you want to see what that really looks like, think about the things that they are focused on, going even more extreme on abortion, cutting Medicare, cutting Social Security, even though they don't want to say it out loud yet. In the

past, gun control, refusing to do anything on that, essentially. Those are things that Americans actually care about. So why is it that Kevin McCarthy is so focused on something that Americans don't actually want? Well, that's because that party is becoming increasingly emboldened by and driven by this radical agenda of just a few. And apparently, at the moment, it seems the American people are hostage to whoever Kevin McCarthy made a promise to in this process. So that's where we are. And Willie, they keep losing. We're going to talk about what the RNC is promising to do. I mean, what the RNC is promising to do.

It's unbelievable. That's like the New York Jets. Do this in doses. Or maybe it's like the Knicks going, you know what? We promised we're going to do over the next 20 years the same thing we've done over the last 20 years because we like losing. It's fun. More losing. More losing fun. More losing. More losing is what the Republicans.

Save that for later. We're going to save that for later. But yeah, Willie, it's absolutely crazy. And by the way, again, we always have to say this, just a caveat, because there are a lot of people out there that are going, well, you know, Trump had to raise it as COVID. And they talk that way, too, which is really weird. I don't know why they talk that way. It's really strange, but they do. But they were driving up record deficits and record federal

debt before COVID. We were complaining on this show before COVID about how Donald Trump was the most reckless. And and by the way, let me say it to Kevin McCarthy and everybody in Republican leadership went along for the ride. The most reckless president ever fiscally. And well, now they're being self-righteous. That's really fascinating. Yeah. The tax cut Mara was just talking about was years before COVID, a couple of years before COVID that went into place. And now everyone, it seems sometime around, I don't know, January 20th, 2021, found their debt and deficit hawkishness again. So we will come back to this story in just a bit. But today is a day of mourning in Memphis where Tyree Nichols will be laid to rest. Vice President Kamala Harris will attend his funeral. Nichols' mother and

stepfather invited the vice president after speaking with her on the phone yesterday morning, and the vice president accepted that invitation. The Nichols family also says the mother of Breonna Taylor and the brother of George Floyd will attend the funeral. Reverend Al Sharpton will deliver the eulogy. Last night, the family gathered with Reverend Sharpton at the historic Mason Temple Church of God in Christ in Memphis. That is where Martin Luther King Jr. delivered his final speech the night before he was assassinated. Because we will continue in Tyree's name to head up to Martin's mountain top. That's why we wanted to start this right on this sacred ground yeah this is holy ground and this family now is ours and they're in the hands of history and reverend sharpton joins us

now from memphis talking about that mountaintop speech on april 3rd 1968 the night before reverend dr king was killed reverend sharpton what did you say last night to the family? What comfort can you offer them around this horrible, horrible tragedy? Well, the only comfort that I can offer them is that we will stand with them and fight in the name of Tyree and others to try and change the legal and legislative structure that deals with policing in this country. We are all united, including the family of Tyree Nichols, around passing the George Floyd Justice and Policing Act.

And I think that there is a new drive. I've been talking with my colleagues in civil rights leadership, as well as members of the Senate, to really try and push police reform in light of this. Last night, as you said, we had the press conference and family, and I stood at the spot where Dr. King gave his last speech. The next day he was killed. I'm standing in the building of the Lorraine Motel that is now the National Civil Rights Museum, where he was actually killed. My youngest daughter is with me. I showed her the balcony where Dr. King had stepped out of his room, headed to dinner, and a man blew his brains out. And to go into Memphis and think about Martin Luther King died here on a cold balcony in April of 1968.

And we're here now where five black cops beat an unarmed man to death. And there's no federal legislation that really addresses this shows the shame that we have of what has happened to Tyrese Nichols. To think that Dr. King died to put blacks on the police force and they're acting in as brutal a force as any racist police is why we're here today. And I'm going to address that directly in the eulogy. I think it's befitting the first black woman, the first woman vice president will be there because this building where Dr. King died showed how far we came from. As Joe was in Europe last week where there was the human carnage to show how low we could be. Now we have to rise up together and fight this.

We can't just accept it. Reverend Mara Gay here. Nice to see you, even under these circumstances. You know, Americans of all backgrounds and especially black Americans have watched this similar kind of tragedy unfold again and again. And you yourself have gone to be with families in this kind of pain again and again. Do you have any kind of 30,000 foot thoughts on the kind of the success so far of this police reform strategy? Do you feel like this is a moment to rethink that strategy or is progress being made? Is this a situation where you just want to keep marching forward? Is there any thought right now about, you know, how successful police reform

strategies are as here we are again, just another family? It seems so piecemeal, I think, to so many Americans that we have to watch people suffer again and again while seeing inaction on the Hill? Well, it is very burdensome. And certainly for those of us that have been doing the marching and have been with the families, it does get to feel piecemeal. But when you think about in the state of New York, there is a state law against chokeholds, the Aragona law. And in other states we've seen there be statewide legislation. The failure has been national. And the strategy certainly is rethought every time we can. But the strategy is to put people in office that will vote for that. We came very close to passing the George Floyd Justice and Policing Act.

And I think that we must continue to put people in and to pressure those that are in. Some are now facing reelection in 24 that we may be able to get it now. Let's not forget, Myra, that even when we failed to get the George Floyd Justice and Policing Act after George Floyd, that we did get the president of the United States, Joe Biden, stepped forward and did an executive order around some of the same things that we wanted in terms of body cameras and other things that was in the George Floyd bill. Joe Biden signed that executive order. The Emancipation Proclamation

by Abe Lincoln was nothing but an executive order until it became law with the 15th Amendment. So those of us that are in the struggle don't just wait on high profile situations like this. We keep going every day. It took Dr. King. Again, I'm in the building he was killed in. It took them from a 1955 bus boycott in Montgomery, nine years to 64 to get the Civil Rights Act. This is not about a sprint movement. It's about a marathon. You run till you break the ribbon. And we're going to do that. And Rev, we've been talking to you through the years, one tragedy after another tragedy. And we've seen with Eric Garner in New York and we've seen with other tragedies, one after another, after another, shifts the focus, as we've talked about, from from race just a little bit in this case to say, OK, we obviously have to we have to focus on racism victim and the victim being black. And the fact that no police officer would have done this to me when I was 29 years old, a middle class white guy. Nobody they would they would have dared because they knew that if they did, if they beat the hell out of a 29 year old middle class white guy, that hell would rain down from above. Just what? That's the reality. So I'm curious.

You know, we grow up and we learn about the social contract, what we all do, and being part of that social contract, we give up some rights and we pay taxes in return. We're protected. I'm just curious, what do we do to make that social contract apply equally to 29-year-old black men like it does right now to 29-year-old white men when it comes to policing? I think you raise a critical point. And you said to me, minutes after we heard about this, you said to me on the phone, they would have never done this to me. Which showed even black police officers treat blacks differently than they treat whites, because you have five black policemen here who I don't believe would have done this to a white young man in Memphis, Tennessee. One, you have to fight them equally. You have to not just jump on it when it's white cops.

We're here, and it is five black cops. And second, there must be equal protection under the law. That's why a major element of this George Floyd Justice in Policing Act is qualified immunity. Policemen need to know that they have some skin in the game, that they can be sued and they can be prosecuted. And the fact that this black police chief, a woman, fired them immediately before charges, the fact that they are now indicted and others are now being fired and probably indicted will show you will pay a price. And because you're black, you will not get a pass. We're here in Memphis against black cops like we were in Minneapolis against white cops. It's about police protecting and serving all of us.

Well, and just for for everybody that's watching right now, nobody's really said anything about it. But, you know, Rev, you and I spoke that morning. You had told me that you were going to put out a statement. But it was interesting. There was a hesitancy for a bit from from some civil rights leaders because they didn't know exactly how to respond to five black officers beating up and killing a black man. And you told me immediately that morning, doesn't matter. We have to charge forward and seek justice in this case just as aggressively as we do in any case, just as aggressively as we did in Minneapolis. Absolutely. I didn't hesitate because, as you know, I grew up as a teenager in New York in Dr. King's movement. And Dr. King did not die in this building for blacks to have the right to beat each other to death,

even if you're in a blue uniform. So there is no moral gap between what you stand for. I was talking to Martin Luther King III about this. We have got to be consistent morally if we're going to get this country back on track. And that's why I think today's rally funeral, because the mother and father have been adamant that this is going to be about justice and changing laws. And I think that is why it's so important the vice president is here, because we need to make it clear. This is about race. Yes. But it's about reforming. And those even of our color need to know they're not of our kind.

Thank you for all you do. Thank you very much. We'll see you again soon. Later on in the show. Thank you for all you do, Rev. Thank you very much. We'll see you again soon later on in the show. Thank you. And still ahead on Morning Joe, amid 2024 speculation, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis responds to Donald Trump after the former president criticized his handling of the COVID pandemic. We'll play for you what he said. Plus, we'll take a look at why adult film star Stormy Daniels is thanking Donald Trump for his latest attack that he posted on Truth Social.

Also ahead, Republican Congressman George Santos sits down for an in-depth television interview. What he had to say about the many lies he told on the campaign trail and And actor Alec Baldwin formally charged in the fatal shooting on the set of the film Rust. What prosecutors are saying about the evidence against him. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. The hour yesterday, we reported on the Manhattan grand jury that will hear evidence about the alleged hush money payments that President Trump paid to adult film star Stormy Daniels during his 2016 presidential campaign. The former president addressed it on social media, essentially confirming that it happened, writing with respect to the stormy nonsense. It's very old and happened a long time ago, long past the very publicly known and accepted deadline. 1920s of the statute of limitations. No. So yucky.

Daniels responded on Twitter, saying thanks for just admitting that I was telling the truth about everything. I mean, Jonathan, it all comes down to the way that he set this up. I've always said, you know, the personal stuff's the personal stuff. But the Federal Elections Commission would look at any candidate. If a member of Congress had told a staff member, in this case it was Michael Cohen, hey, listen, I need you to get some hush money to somebody that I was in a relationship with. And take it from the campaign. Two weeks before the election. I mean, that person would have been busted, you know, two weeks after the FEC found out about it. It's really kind of crazy that this hasn't become an

issue before because it would have with any member of the House of Representatives or any member of the Senate. Yeah. First of all, former president on a real run here on Truth Social relitigating some of the worst moments of his time in office. We've got Helsinki and now and now this. And he does. By the way, what did he call you in the Helsinki thing? He said a terrible report. Second, second. Actually, let me correct you there. He called me a third rate reporter. Let's not put words in his mouth. But what he's doing

here in both of these, as you said, he's admitting. He admitted in this Stormy Daniels truth social tweet that he broke the law. He admitted again after lying about it, after you busted him,

he's now admitting all these years later that, yes, he trusts an ex-KGB agent that sees the United States of America as an enemy more than the professionals that run America's intel community. Yeah, sided with Putin. Sided with Putin, then still siding with Putin now, even after Putin launches a war. But back to the Stormy Daniels matter, this is not

only a confession on social media, although considering Truth Social's subscriber number is not that many people saw it probably, but this is where he could run into some legal trouble here. We've been talking to analysts who say that there was questions all along why the Manhattan DA was slow to bring up this charge. In fact, a couple of prosecutors quit the office because it seemed like they weren't going to. And now DA Alvin Bragg has revisited it. And, you know, we can tick through the list. Mika did yesterday in terms of the number of legal cases currently facing Donald Trump. But this is one that's immediate. And a charge appears to seem likely, because for a matter of this import, you wouldn't go to the grand jury if you didn't think you could get a charge.

Now, conviction is a different matter. We'll see. But there is here, if indeed he had a staffer pay this money to protect his reputation, we're told from lawyers that he could, if convicted, that could be four years in prison. I've got to just say, he just added to the case. The question is, again, the question is, why has it taken this long? And this is the whole thing about there. Well, I guess, but it's been two years since he was president. I mean, and the Manhattan D.A. dragging their feet, prosecutors quitting because they're afraid of Donald Trump. I don't know. Really tough people will follow the law.

OK. Actor and producer Alec Baldwin has been formally charged in the deadly 2021 shooting on the set of the movie Rust. The allegations from prosecutors include Baldwin not taking his weapons training seriously. NBC News national correspondent Miguel Almaguer has the latest details. I do have some very unfortunate news to tell you. She didn't make it. Saying he acted with willful disregard and negligence, the Santa Fe County District Attorney has officially charged Alec Baldwin with involuntary manslaughter, arguing the actor-producer directly caused the death of cinematographer Helena Hutchins. In a new statement of probable cause, the DA says Baldwin was not

present for required firearms training prior to the commencement of filming, then was distracted and talking on his cell phone to his family during the training, cutting the hour-long session in half. The explosive allegations saying evidence shows Baldwin with his finger on the trigger multiple times before firing the shot that killed Hutchins. He's experienced. He understands what the proper protocol is for safety, and he was just disregarding that. While Baldwin's attorney has called the charge a miscarriage of justice, the DA says he handled the weapon in a negligent manner and aimed the revolver directly at the crew. I would never point a gun at anyone and pull a trigger at them, never.

After finding live rounds on the armorer's cart and on Baldwin's holster, the DA believes it was Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, who was in charge of guns on the set, who loaded the weapon, and assistant director Dave Halls, who handed it to Baldwin. For a lesser charge, Halls took a plea deal. The attorneys representing Gutierrez-Reed, who's also charged with involuntary manslaughter, say we will fight these charges. Do you think they're both equally culpable here? I do. If convicted, the actor and armorer could face six and a half years behind bars for the real-life tragedy on a low-budget movie set.

NBC's Miguel Almaguer with that report. And next hour, we'll speak with legal analyst Danny Sabalos about the case. Wonder if his opinions have adjusted at all after reading what was in the documents, in the charging documents. Willie. Here in New York, the owner of the Knicks, James Dolan, reportedly has hired former Trump White House communications director Hope Hicks as a public relations consultant. According to the New York Post, Dolan hired Hicks after revelations about his use of facial recognition technology at Madison Square Garden to keep his adversaries out of the arena. Specifically, attorneys opposing teams. Well, attorneys from law for they should have kept LeBron out of the building last night. He beat him badly. But attorneys from law firms involved in litigation against MSG,

those are the people he's keeping out of the building. The Daily News reports Dolan also has used the technology to identify and confront his personal critics. So, Jonathan Lemire, as we Knicks fans mark this year, 50 years, 5-0 since our last NBA title. This is what we're dealing with at the Garden. Tough loss, by the way, to the Lakers in overtime last night. Yeah, because Hope Hicks had so much success keeping another temperamental New Yorker out of the public spotlight in her previous job. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of Knicks fans

woke up to this news and went, yeah, sure, why not? Because everything else has gone so badly for them. And James Dolan, of course, is, I mean, Willie, you're the Knicks fan at the table, is, shall we say, disliked by the majority of Knicks fans. And he's someone who not only has been to run into some trouble here with this facial recognition technology to keep lawyers out of the building, but also suggested banning beer at NASCAR Garden. Banning beer.

I mean, Knicks fans certainly need to have more than one probably to get through another potentially playoff-less season. But it is interesting to see Hope Hicks pop back in the news. It's at least to this point, she stayed away from Donald Trump's 2024 bid after being one of his closest advisors from the very beginning last time around. Part of this scrap is with the state liquor board. You said, all right, then we just won't have beer at the game. So, Joe, a painful reminder for Knicks fans, too, with LeBron beating the Knicks last night at the Garden that we couldn't lure LeBron to the world's greatest arena. I don't understand the Knicks. I really don't. The Knicks could be the greatest show on earth. They really could. I mean, here you are in the center of Manhattan. It's one of the most valuable sports franchises in the world. And they just keep losing and they always lose ugly.

There's always a sense of and look at that beautiful beacon from Manhattan. Like, yes. Aren't you glad they tore down the original Penn Station to build that show? Oh, my God. I know. But I'm serious. I mean, somebody had asked me before, I said, when this news came out, said, who's who's worse, Dan Snyder or Dolan? I mean, come on. It's not even close. I mean, Snyder's like the worst of the worst. But but you just with with with the Knicks, that's just taken it to a completely different level through the years. Willie, it's absolutely horrible. And like you said, it's been 50 years. And you've got like the most valuable sports franchise that year after year after year just collapsed.

And it's always ugly. And now facial recognition to keep people out that criticize him. Yeah, I was 10 years old when the Knicks won the draft lottery. Then we were going to get Patrick Ewing and the path had been cleared to multiple titles. Michael Jordan got in the way of all that. But it's been a long time. They still fill the arena. You made the most important point, Joe. The Knicks are in the top five most valuable franchises in the world. They make tons and tons of money through media deals for everything that goes on at Madison Square Garden.

So James Dolan is good. You know, he's fine even if the Knicks don't lose, though. They've got some exciting players this year. But this has been going on like this for so long and so many people are making so much money. He's not particularly bothered by it. We're supposed to go right now. Yes, we are. But I've got to bring up my pet peeve. It's time to go to break. Of all pet peeves. And you will remember from the early years of Morning Joe,

me complaining about my luggage getting lost every weekend at JFK. What I don't understand is New York, you know, greatest city on Earth, whatever. People can have that debate. People can have that debate. I personally think it is. I'm not a New Yorker, but I think it is. It's the center of the world culturally. It's the center of the world economically. And yet its infrastructure is as bad as I've ever seen. We're showing Madison Square Garden right there. You look at what they did to Penn Station.

They took a beautiful, beautiful piece of architecture and just completely destroyed it. You now have six and a half foot ceilings as you go into the train station. It's just absolutely miserable. You fly into JFK. Again, I fly to airports all over the world, all over the country, all over the world. You fly into JFK. It takes you 45 minutes just to get out on an interstate. Any other city in the world would have an express train that goes from JFK to Midtown Manhattan.

Any other city in the world would have an express train that stops in Queens. OK. And by the way, as you get to Queens. Right. Suddenly everything is above ground and it's as rickety as the six flags like like log jam ride. Everything. No, no. This is an important question. This is an important question. I want to know, Willie and Lemire and Maura and everybody that has to deal with New York City every day. How could it be that the greatest city in the world, and I'm dead serious, has the worst infrastructure in America? Okay, Mara, let's take this on.

First of all, New York subway is the only way to travel around New York. You gotta take it. Yes, it's rickety. Some of the newer stations, if you go downtown to the Oculus and all that are beautiful. We're capable of building good subway stations. Improvements at JFK, improvements at LaGuardia, to be sure. The Moynihan train hall across the

street from the old Penn Station. Well, not the old, but the new old Penn Station is beautiful. So there is progress being made, but it's an old city that was built a long time ago, and you're sort of improving as you go. Yeah. How much time do we have? Right. Well, no, no. In all seriousness, actually, we do have the subway system. Thank God is like the modern marvel of the world. The fact that it was built right the first time and continues to work and shuttle millions of New Yorkers around and Americans is a good sign because we haven't really invested in it properly since. But we have a lot of work to do. It's very expensive to undertake construction projects in New York. And also, we get very little federal money here in New York for what New Yorkers send in tax dollars to Washington.

And it's always a fight, John, between Albany and New York City, who's going to pay for the subway. But you were there a couple of days ago with President Biden. New tunnel going in. Yeah, they're taking this head on right now. And you're right. It was certainly Governor Cuomo tried to make infrastructure part of his legacy. That only went so well. And of course, he left office prematurely. But yesterday, the federal government now is going to be a partner, perhaps, to New York City. We showed this. President Biden was in town commissioning a huge new project that's going to repair and build new tunnels under the Hudson River from Manhattan to New Jersey that will help train traffic. But not just for commuter rail in New York, but as goods travel up and down the eastern seaboard throughout the country with billions of dollars. It will help the economy because of this.

So, yes, New York, every time you're stuck on the Van Wick Expressway or the Cross Bronx, you realize, boy, New York's got a long way to go. But slow and steady, there seem to be some improvements, particularly on the mass transit. The Van Wick is amazing. We're just getting real deep on the traffic here. You can land at JFK at midnight and sit in bumper to bumper traffic. And you go, wow, I didn't think you could do it at midnight, Van Wick. Here we are. Tip your cap to Van Wick.

And you're on there. It doesn't matter when you land. You're on there for 30, 40 minutes. 30, 40 minutes before you then can merge and start moving towards Manhattan and then be stuck there for another hour. And you're right. It doesn't matter the time. Here's the deal.

Here's the deal. And I'm glad President Biden was here yesterday. I'm glad they're in New York and not here, but in New York. I'm glad that they're talking about this. But here's the reality. New York City is the gateway to the world. All right. Whether you like New York or not, it's a gateway to the world. You look at all the tax revenue that New York City sends to, well, not only Albany, but also Washington, D.C., they've got to make it easier for people coming in to New York. They've got to make it easier for people moving around New York.

And, yeah, again, we've talked about it. It's cool that they're trying to spend some money in LaGuardia, even if it spirals around three states. Okay, okay, just stop. No, seriously. You have to stop. And by the way, if you're going to bring up Jeff Kaye, I'm sorry. Nothing's worse than Ron DeSantis' Miami International Airport. It is horrible.

It is horrible. Thanks, Ron DeSantis. By the way, thanks, Ron. Thanks, Ron. Mika literally walks around. Thanks, Ron DeSantis. She has the stickers. Thanks, Ron. I have a T-shirt. Every Ron DeSantis. She has the stickers. Thanks, Ron.

I have a T-shirt. Every escalator is busted. It is disgusting. It is horrible. I'm not sure the governor has jurisdiction over the escalators at the airport, but I take the point. We don't care. He could do something.

We don't care. We just take the thanks. People barf and dogs come through. I once saw it rain in the airport. Really? It's just awful there. Tomorrow I saw it rain in the airport, she said. In Miami.

It is awful. It is awful. I don't think that was rain. But I will say, there's a dog from the balcony above. It is New York. Miami is not the gateway

to America. New York City is. They've got to fix it. That's all I have to say. I do is not the gateway to America. New York City has. They've got to fix up. That's all I have to say. I do like seeing the Lancaster County from Gate 36C. It is a long walk. It is a long walk. But I look outside. I'm like, is that Harrison Ford out there? It's wonderful. OK, coming up on Morning Joe, the president of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass, joins us to discuss the day's top stories from overseas, including the new U.S. aid for Ukraine's war effort and the impact of Secretary of State Anthony Blinken's visit to Israel amid the recent escalation of violence in the region. Morning Joe, we'll be right back. So Tom Cruise has come like this. I'm coming down region. Morning Joe, we'll be right back. So Tom Cruise

has come like this. I'm coming down here. All right, stop. I'm literally. Stop. Get this shot away. I have my. 53 past the hour, live look at the White House. It's a beautiful shot. Washington, D.C. So arriving in Tel Aviv on Monday, Secretary of State Anthony Blinken called for urgent steps to restore calm between Israelis and Palestinians. Blinken's visit to Israel and the West Bank included meetings with the newly elected Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, and Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas. It comes on the heels of a string of deadly incidents between the two sides. Let's bring it right out.

The president of the Council of Foreign Relations, Richard Haass. He's the author of the new book titled The Bill of Obligations, The Ten Habits of Good Citizens. It is a great read. It's an important read. If you get a chance, get it and read it. Richard, so let's just be really blunt here. Netanyahu has already said, I'm invested in the Abraham Accords. I've done more than every other prime minister in history. I don't really have any need to sit down and deal with the Palestinians. How is this going

to work? How are tensions not going to continue to escalate if he has the most, people would say, far-right government ever in Israel. And he's just saying right off the bat, he's not invested in peace with the Palestinians. This is going to work badly and then get even worse, Joe. Look, the Abraham Accords ignored the Palestinians. So this is consistent with that. There's zero chance there's going to be progress between Israel and the Palestinians diplomatically because this Israeli government's not interested in it. And the Palestinians are divided and many of them are not particularly interested in any diplomatic progress. So the two state solution for the time being, if not permanently, is dead.

Neither government, neither the Palestinian Authority nor the Israelis are in control of people who are increasingly involved in the violence. The settlers on the Israeli side, young Palestinian groups in the West Bank, not to mention Hamas in Gaza. So I think you're going to have more and more violence. And ultimately, the real question is, does this prevent, for example, Saudi Arabia from ever normalizing relations with Israel, particularly if Islamic sites become a venue of violence. And I worry that could happen. It could even unravel some of the progress we've seen. So, again, we have to watch this space.

But there's no glimmer of good news coming from here. Yeah. Katty K, listen, I'm going to give you several options this morning because that's just what we do. You can talk about Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted Airport, or you can ask Richard a question about Middle East peace. Your call. Take it away. Or the Knicks.

You can ask me about the Knicks. I was getting very exercised during that conversation, of course, looking at infrastructure spending around the world. And I looked it up. We are behind. We're 17th in the world behind Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Brazil, Russia, India. They all have greater infrastructure spending than the United States does at the moment. JFK is a mess. It needs to be fixed. Dallas, on the other hand, one of the most beautiful airports in the world.

OK, true. It's a gorgeous, gorgeous building. Getting there is impossible unless you have a car, but otherwise. Richard, I was in Morocco in early January, and I was surprised at the degree of opposition to the Abraham Accords, just from Moroccans that I was speaking to. And I wonder whether that might play into the Saudi calculations, too. But is there any other political capital that the U.S. might be holding back with Israel because they are trying to bring Israel on board further on Ukraine? I mean, is there, I imagine Ukraine was a big part of Tony

Blinken's conversations with Netanyahu. Is there any indication that Ukraine may join, that Israel may join more firmly the Western camp? I know that there's technology that they would like them to send to the Ukrainians, but are they having to kind of turn, you know, dial back on some of the Palestinian and the two-state solution stuff in order to get more input on Ukraine? Now, what we've entered is the year of a compartmentalized U.S.-Israeli relationship. We totally disagree on the Palestinian issue. On Ukraine, the two countries disagree. And I don't see Israel alienating Russia. It's very worried about Syria. Russia can be a help there. Also, a large Jewish community in Russia. So I don't see the Israelis

doing much. Where the United States and Israel have to find a way to work together is Iran. The protests have died down in Iran. What hasn't died down, apparently, are Iranian efforts in their nuclear program. And we saw the attacks the Israelis apparently carried out the other day near Isfahan. That's not the end of it. Diplomacy is not working there. So that's going to be an area. The question of the United States and Israel is, can they preserve cooperation on Iran? At the same time, they clearly disagree on some of the other important issues between them. Hey, Richard, it's Jonathan, Secretary of State Blinken. Busy guy. After this trip, he's soon heading to China. This was the visit that was brokered during the meeting

between President Biden and President Xi Jinping in Bali back at the G20 in November. What is your expectations for what his message will be? And just assess for you, for us, if you will, the current state of relationship between Washington and Beijing. Look, this is the most important bilateral relationship of this year. But by any and every measure, Jonathan, it's deteriorated over the last five to 10 years. I would say the lion's share of the responsibility is on the Chinese side, given what Xi Jinping is doing at home and in the region. But the Chinese recently have clearly signaled they want to stabilize the relationship, put something of a floor under it.

They're on something of what passes for a charm offensive. Look, it's good they're talking. To me, the real question is, can there be not any agreements, but at least some understandings about some of the guardrails to avoid a real crisis, much less a conflict over Taiwan. Maybe they can work out some things on the economic side, continue to press the Chinese not to do more than they're doing for the Russians in Ukraine. So it's really a damage limiting. Can we put a floor under this relationship rather than accomplishing good things? But look, sometimes what you avoid in diplomacy is just as important as what you achieve. So I think it's potentially a fairly

important visit. So, Richard, I went to a couple of went to a couple of European capitals over the weekend, spoke with some some some diplomats and leaders. Their view on Ukraine is fascinating. I'm not in a position where I can say exactly what they're thinking as we move forward. But let me ask you, how do you think the spring and summer looks at the Ukraine-Russian conflict? Do you think we move any closer to a deal for peace?

Look, Joe, I'm sorry to be so negative on so many things this morning. I wish I could say yes, but I simply don't see the ingredients there. I think, if anything, fighting is going to grow more intense. We're seeing the Russians prepare, if not for a new offensive, at least for slightly greater fighting. I think the Russians figure if they do more against Ukraine militarily, it puts Ukraine on the defense more rather than being able to go on the offense. And I don't think either side is at all prepared politically for compromise, for cutting a deal. Putin still worries that anything that involves compromise makes them weak at home. Given the military success they have enjoyed, given the atrocities they've suffered, there's simply no appetite on the Ukrainian side for compromise. So I think this spring,

this summer, next fall, a year from now, I think the situation largely resembles where we are now. I think we need to essentially prepare ourselves not just for months, but potentially for years more of conflict. Well, and we have right now, of course, tanks being introduced. I'm wondering if over the next six months we start to see maybe some of those MIGs getting introduced and maybe some some more air support being introduced. What are you hearing? Yeah, I think ultimately aircraft could make more of a difference than the tanks, given just the nature of modern warfare. But at the moment, I think there's a decent chance the Europeans might introduce some. The administration still seems worried about doing, how would I put it, trying to find a sweet spot between doing

enough for Ukraine, but not quote unquote much. That might risk certain types of Russian escalation or expansion of the war effort. So, yeah, I don't think you'll see U.S. aircraft going there, possibly European. Not enough, though, to be decisive militarily. I think this is going to be a long, expensive slog. Richard Haass, thank you very much.