Morning Joe - Morning Joe 2/1/24

Episode Date: February 1, 2024

NYPD cops beaten by groups of migrants

Now, he said yesterday, the stock market is great because people are excited about him being president. How many more times are you going to let him lie about things that aren't true and say, you know what? Something's not quite right. And this also is about a general election. This is about who can win. He can't win moderates. He can't win independents. He can't win suburban women. He lost in 2018. He lost in 2020. He lost in 2022. How many more times do you have to lose before you say, you know what?

Maybe that's not the guy. How has Trump changed politics for the good and the bad? He's made it chaotic. He's made it self-absorbed. He's made people dislike and judge each other. He's left that a president should have moral clarity and know the difference between right or wrong. And he's just toxic.

I mean, he, you know, I think a lot of the things he broke needed to be broken. But he doesn't know how to fix things again. And it's not okay to just break. You've got to fix it and make it better. And he hasn't done that. Republican presidential

candidate Nikki Haley with that direct criticism of Donald Trump. That's pretty tough, huh? Yes. In a moment, I'll show you new polling that has President Biden leading Trump in a hypothetical rematch, thanks to a major bump from two groups of voters. We'll tell you who they are. Plus, the key moments from a contentious and dramatic Senate hearing yesterday with social media CEOs. That hearing included a surprise moment

from Mark Zuckerberg. Yeah, he really, really incredible. He should have kept that surprise to himself. And I feel bad for you. No, come on. I mean, it just seemed so staged and preplanned. It was quite a moment of congressional theater. You had Senator Josh Hawley having his moment of grandstanding, saying, apologize to those people.

And then Zuckerberg turned around and gave sort of an awkward brief address to the families in the back who lost loved ones. Yeah, it was discordant. I mean, there was great bipartisan support there. Yeah. I will say also, talk about the bipartisan issue. This is a crazy New York story, Mike Barnicle. You have illegal immigrants in New York. They beat the hell out of cops.

They get sent to jail. They get released the next day. Oh yeah. The next day. And by the way, by the way, politicians say, I don't understand why do people think crimes out of, I don't understand. And you've got leaders in Washington going, well, you know, I don't think we can arrest people and incarcerate them. I don't think that's the way to save her streets. I don't know. All while they're all while they're passing legislation that says steal what you want to steal up to a thousand dollars. We're cool with it. You know, for people who are not familiar with what you're talking about here,

there are two police officers over the weekend in Times Square, very busy Times Square. And they began trying to arrest someone who was disrupting the peace. And they were attacked by eight to 10, perhaps 12 other people, young men, migrants, illegal citizens, every here illegally. They jumped all over the cops, kicked them, beat them. The cops managed, God bless the cops, they managed to arrest two or three. Four of them. And yet, here's the security camera showing the

assault of the police officers in New York. Times Square. And they were just bounced. They go in and again, because somebody's idea of. Of. Of reform is letting people who beat the hell out of cops out of jail the next day.

Hmm. Sounds like there's there's I'm sorry. There's nothing racist about, you know, when people say, oh, it's racist to have this with the bail, this or bail that. Rev, you hear it. I hear it. You hear it. And wherever you go, there's no no. So, you know, revolving doors aren't a solution. Letting somebody beat the hell out of a New Yorker one day and be walking on the street the next. I mean, that's a recipe for chaos. Well, you must look at the fact that these were physical attacks.

These were not somebody you're letting out for doing something that was non-physical. Secondly, with migrants, you're releasing them to go where? So even those of us that have fought for reform, there's a difference between reform and deform. This is deform. This is this is where you are really. Again, we need to deal with the migrant issue and we need to deal with the crisis. I mean, National Action Network's office, downtown office is in Times Square. I'm right around the corner from where this happened. So to have people just walking around being able to do this is not reforming

and it's not progressive. We need to really deal with how we handle policing in a way that police nor citizens are victims of people that are reckless. And we need to be mature about that. Yeah. And we're going to talk to former New York City Police Commissioner Bill Bratton in just a few minutes. He'll be here with us. But this, Governor Hochul in the state was asked yesterday, should these men be deported? They're here as migrants. They're beating up cops. And she says, yes, that's something that should be looked at. So you're hearing stronger language. People tiptoed around this over the last few years during this bail reform. Actually, the budget that was passed in Albany just last year gave judges more discretion now because they used to be when

they reformed bail in 2019, the judge had no discretion. Right. They couldn't assess this person is a threat. They shouldn't be put back in the subway to rob somebody today. They do have a little more discretion now. So the tide has shifted a bit. But clearly, if these guys are just put back on the street after beating up cops, not enough. Yeah, it's it's just insanity. Yeah, as you can see. There's also, you know, where would you put them? I mean, the jails are doubly filled, triply filled.

Rikers Island is an explosion waiting to happen. I mean, it's the overlapping problems. You don't have enough room in the jails. Should they be in the jails? And if they're migrants, you're sending them back where? And in communities that raise the issues of reform, we're not talking about that because we are percentage wise the highest victims of crimes. I mean, at one hand, we want to be protected. At another hand, we don't want to be abused by the cops or the robbers. It would be a strong message

if they could make the system work and get those attackers on planes back to their home countries immediately. Well, yeah, I mean, and the biggest problem right now, because there is a solution. There is a solution and the solution's waiting for Republicans to sign on to

and to have it signed into the law. It's called by Republicans the toughest border security law ever. And and right now you've got House Republicans stopping it. So we're going to keep seeing chaos like this because of Donald. As you can see, we have a lot to talk about. We're going to come back to this. Elise Jordan, Jonathan Lemire with us, along with Mike Barnicle. And we'll start with this. A new national poll shows Joe Biden beating Donald Trump in a hypothetical general election matchup. This is the latest Quinnipiac University survey. Biden leading Trump by six points, 50 percent to 44 percent

among registered voters. That is outside the poll's margin of error and up from a survey taken in December, which had Biden ahead by a single point. His new lead is driven largely by growing support among independents who now back Biden by 12 points, twice as much as the previous poll. Also among women, where Biden's lead is now 22 points up from 12 points in December. And although the survey shows Trump ahead of Nikki Haley in a Republican primary in a general election, Haley leads Biden by five points, 47 percent to 42 percent. Yesterday, we reported on new polling from Bloomberg and Morning Consult showing Trump ahead of Biden in seven swing states, underscoring just how close this race is believed to be.

There was also a caveat to some of the polling that we talked about yesterday, where if he was convicted or found liable and guilty in one, two or a number of the case, I don't even know how many cases he has against him, that that could change and the support for him could leave. Yeah. And Willie, I think this poll shows like so many others, the race is up in the air. It's very fluid. It would make sense that independents and women would be breaking away from Donald Trump. But, you know, they're doing the smart thing. They're attacking Taylor Swift and NFL football players. So maybe the independents and women will come running. It's a brilliant strategy, isn't it? Yeah, James Carville has his theory.

James always has a theory about that stuff. Yeah, I mean, the same way Democrats shouldn't get too upset about a poll yesterday, maybe don't get too excited about this one. It's a long road to go. But you do, as you always say, Joe, you look at trend lines and a 10 point swing among women voters just in the last month. Perhaps that's Eugene Carroll. Perhaps that's just the seeing a lot more of Donald Trump, seeing the way he's treating Nikki Haley, by the way, as they go forward. And by the way, and you look at the second beat on that poll, it's the case Nikki Haley has been making. Maybe it's too late. She said Mike and I heard her say it last week in New Hampshire,

don't come crying to me in November when Joe Biden beats Donald Trump. I'm the one who beats Joe Biden and you have a chance to put me there. But good trends anyway for Joe Biden. Yeah, good trend lines for Joe Biden. I think it's something else, too. If Donald Trump has been running as I'm strong man man, I'm strong, man. And he stumbles out and bumbles his way through speeches and sounds like speeches. We're sweaty and spray. They're really sprayed on. It's Rudy at the end. It's Rudy. But he's babbling. And I'll tell you what, when he messes up now, something that he's never had.

He's got an opponent that says, oh, three seconds ago in New Hampshire, Donald Trump said this. And the Biden campaign puts it up. Here's her latest ad. Donald Trump is truly confused. Nikki Haley is in charge of security. We offered her 10,000 people. They don't want to talk about that. He didn't just get me confused. He mentioned it over and over and over again.

He's not what he was in 2016. He has declined. That's a fact. I mean, we won last time. We won 50 states, right? This is not Donald Trump of 2016, guys. What? What is? If he is off the teleprompter, he can barely keep a cogent thought. I mean, that's just fact. We are an institute and a powerful death penalty. We will put this on. I think he's declining. I stumbled and mumbled purposely. I do speak in long, complex sentences and have a lot of material in each sentence.

You have voter ID to buy a loaf of bread. You have ID to buy a loaf of bread. Have you noticed? He's a little confused these days. A person close to Trump actually says that he's rattled by Biden's efforts to get under his skin. Wow. You have, you have, oh, I need to buy one, two. You have my friend. And then he's going on and on. What's that? We are a very powerful institute death penalty. And he famously won all 50 states in 2016, as he said. Yeah, I mean, I'm just watching. I think George W. Bush has to be going.

Thank you for me. But yeah, I mean, he is. I we've talked about this, but the moment where he confused not in the slip of the tongue, but again and again, Nikki Haley and Nancy Pelosi was a moment for some people who thought maybe he really is losing it. And you actually see it, Jonathan, in real time where he goes, Nikki Haley, Nikki Haley, Nikki Haley. And he's trying he's searching for Nancy Pelosi's name. He goes on a little bit longer. Then he just circles back to Nancy Pelosi. And then and then, you know, like a month earlier, he's trying to remember Joe Biden's name. He jokes on Obama's name like he's he's got like, you know, a chicken wing in his throat. And then he keeps walking. He keeps on walking through that. And they just goes back as I hell, I can't remember who the president is. Obama, we beat Obama. I mean, it's it's you. It's one thing if you slip up, we all slip up. It's another thing.

If people see somebody as Nikki Haley saying, that's slowing down, that's struggling and trying to remember a name and you see it live and it just again, it just keeps getting worse. Yeah. A senior Biden campaign adviser told me just yesterday, where have you all been on this? There's like finally people are paying attention to the idea that Donald Trump is slipping, that age is a vulnerability for him as well. And it has taken, I mean, obviously this show has been on this for some time, but I feel like it only broke through with much of the media because of that Haley Pelosi moment we just highlighted. In the last couple of weeks, it has become a real topic of political conversation and it's aided by Nikki Haley. You want to see the value of her staying in the Republican race? You're seeing it right there because she's talking about it. And that allows the Biden campaign to highlight words from a fellow

Republican. It's not just a partisan attack. It's another member of the GOP who is reaching out to voters that simply Joe Biden would never be able to do so. And this helps blunt some of the Republican attacks on President Biden's age. He, of course, he look, he's known to make verbal missteps as well. And it gives them an attack line on Donald Trump to say this is another example why he's unfit, unstable, not ready to be president again. And yes, the polls are close as to your point a moment to Willie's point a moment ago. No Biden campaign staffer is doing cartwheels over that poll yesterday. They see the battleground states, too. It's going to be one on the margins, which is why the president's going to Michigan today. That's why that's so important.

He knows the margin for error is slim, but they're going to stay on the attack. This is a newly aggressive Biden campaign. That's not going anywhere. So with Nikki Haley, Elise, it seems to me it makes perfect sense to stay in the race. I mean, we're waiting, I guess, any minute now for the damages and the civil fraud trial to come down. And who knows how these could impact former President Donald Trump? We've already seen a decline and it's got to be from the stress. And so I think it would be smart for someone to be left standing to offer the Republicans something. And also, I think her attacks on Donald Trump perhaps expose his foibles to an audience that wouldn't usually be open to it.

Well, I think that is what nails it, that she has been able to make headway with that message that, no, Donald Trump is not just crazy. He actually is senile, too. And she's been making headway with that message. And she's gotten in some pretty good hits over the past, you know, since New Hampshire happened. What good hits has Donald Trump gotten in on Nikki Haley? He hasn't been able to attack her effectively. He hasn't been able to define her in the way he was with Ron DeSantis. And it's because she's a woman. He is terrible when it comes to knowing an effective way. Exactly. Exactly. That whole, you know, 83 million thing.

So he really is not on high ground here when it comes to attacking Nikki Haley. And Rev, he's in a he's in a position he's not usually in where he's not striking back as aggressively. He's not going after E.G. He's got two women. Has he done anything? He's got two women that have just shut aggressively. He's not going after E.G. He's got two women. Has he done anything? He's got two women that have just shut down. Let's face it. They pounded him in his pocketbook.

They pounded him politically. And so he's keeping his mouth shut on E.G. Carroll. They've just won eighty three million dollars from him. And really, for the most part, not going after Nikki Haley as aggressively as he would want to because he's got his campaign people going, please, please, the less you say, like the easier our job is, Donald. Just keep your mouth shut. I think that it is certainly that. But I also think that it goes with the fact that he's losing it, because let's not forget, he ran against a woman in 16 named Hillary Clinton.

Right. He had no problem. He's losing it. I remember. I mean, you've known him for a long time. So when you say he's losing it, he's losing. His instinct is to fight back, punch back. And he would think back in those days that he was thinking clearer, if you want to ever call what he thought was clear. Right. But that he would fight back and say that they hit me, I can hit back. It reminded me I was blessed in my younger days to know Muhammad Ali. Ali told me one day toward the end of his career, I saw the openings and I just couldn't get the punch there. I just couldn't. He said, I knew where to go, Sharpton, but I couldn't get the punch there. That's when I knew when to leave the ring. The openings are there for Trump. He can't get there. His mind is not there anymore.

And they need to take him out the ring before he gets knocked out. There are two other elements that are going to play into this. One is his behavior, his anger, quite visible the night of the New Hampshire primary when he was a sore winner, attacking Nikki Haley for her dress, the dress that she was wearing, things like that. People get that. It's visible. His anger, his frustration, his rage, his inner rage. The other thing is there is going to be verdicts in some of these trials. Right. And a guilty verdict in one of the major trials, the January 6th trial. That gives a lot of people on the fence right now about Donald Trump, an exit ramp.

Oh, well, that's just too much. I can't vote for a guy who's a convicted felon and put him in the Oval Office. Yeah. Too much chaos. Still ahead on Morning Joe. Senators on the Judiciary Committee demanded accountability from prominent social media CEOs in a tense, dramatic hearing on Capitol Hill yesterday. We'll be joined by the chair of the panel, Senator Dick Durbin. And as we mentioned, we'll talk to former New York City Police Commissioner Bill Bratton about the beating of two NYPD officers by a group of migrants outside a shelter in Midtown. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. As we show you, New York City police officers were beaten by a group of migrants while trying to make an arrest on Sunday. This security video shows a dozen suspects punching and kicking two officers outside of a migrant shelter on 42nd Street in Times Square.

Officers say they arrested four suspects at the scene and took a fifth into custody two days later. But seven suspects, they say, remain at large. Those who were arrested were released without bail. Our producers reached out to the Manhattan District Attorney's Office, give us this statement, quote, violence against police officers is never acceptable. It is paramount that we conclusively identify each defendant and specify each participant's role in the incident. Every defendant charged so far is facing felony charges that carry a penalty of up to seven years. This is an active, ongoing investigation. Join us now to discuss this. Former

New York City Police Commissioner, now the executive chairman of Tenio Risk, Bill Bratton, also with us on set, MSNBC legal analyst Danny Savalos. Good morning to you both. Good to see you. So, Commissioner Bratton, let's start with you and just your thoughts about what we saw here. Do you find it appropriate that these men, these suspects were released without bail? Not at all. It's reflective of the very flawed criminal justice reform, bail reform acts that New York put into effect several years ago. The idea that very few people are held to bail in New York City is a prime example of the failure of that law. The idea that these individuals assaulted these police officers and look at the viciousness of that assault, kicking them in the face, eight, 10 of them attacking two police officers. No, it's not acceptable. It's reprehensible, as the chief of patrol described

in his comments yesterday. So, Danny, you know, the bail reform that went in in 2019 was seen as very lax, that the judges had no discretion effectively to decide if the person was a threat. And the examples have been given about people being arrested for subway crimes, literally hundreds of times the same people. It changed a little bit with the new budget last year. Judges were given some discretion. But where does it stand right now? And particularly as you apply it to this case, bail reform has changed dramatically. And that's why when you ask Commissioner Bratton, he is from an era where this kind of thing wouldn't have happened. But because of the law now, judges almost always must give either ROR,

release on own recognizance, or if it is a felony or a crime within a certain list of what are called bailable offenses, the judge can set bail. But even then, the judge has to take into consideration the suspect, the defendant's ability to pay that bail. Now, in the case of asylum seekers who may be staying at a shelter, their ability to pay bail bail. Now, in the case of asylum seekers who may be staying at a shelter, their ability to pay bail financially, you can guess, is going to be pretty low. But a lot of this also depends on what the DA's office is asking for. If it is a bailable offense, the DA's office can ask for bail. So that is a major question. To what degree did they push for bail? Because really, when you think about it,

setting almost any dollar amount of bail for these defendants likely would have resulted of them being held in custody because they probably don't have a lot of resources to pay bail in the first place. So they would be in custody and we would actually know who beat the hell out of the cops. I mean, yeah, you put it best. This isn't stealing toothpaste from the CVS. This is kicking and beating the hell out of cops. I've got a feeling this isn't what bail reformers were expecting. I mean, this is so excessive. No. And I certainly was one that was pushing bail reform. This is not what we're talking about. This is, as I said, deep form. Where are you releasing them to? You're talking about assaulting police. And by the way, we fought to you're going to give a real. And in this case, it's hard to argue against it. Justifiable attack on bail reform because you let some guys just kick a policeman in the face and walk. That's not what bail reform was about. It is not what it should be about. These people assaulted a police officer clearly in Times Square.

And clearly we do not know where they've been released to. We're not we can argue about how we deal with crime and protect civil liberties. We cannot argue that that is anything short of a criminal act. I mean, Mike, you've got they're just you got politicians, not Eric Adams. Eric Adams seems to be fighting a lot of politicians for for for tougher laws. But got a lot of New York politicians who are just clueless. Well, I mean, here in New York City, I mean, the city council just voted overwhelmingly to override Eric Adams veto of a law that's going to make police officers just bureaucrats. They're going to have to put down every time they stop and talk to a person, they're going to have to file a report, a piece

of paper, a report. It's going to waste an enormous amount of time. But Commissioner Bratton, you've been in the business of policing America in several different cities, including New York City, for 50 years. So what happens to the average police officer's morale, his attitude on the daily job where so much is expected of police officers today and police officers know that everything and almost anything they do, someone is going to record it on a cell phone camera when they get out of that cruiser. What happens to their sense of morale and obligation when they see people like these eight or ten people, young men who beat the hell out of two New York City police officers in Times Square and they skate. No penalty. You just go home, you know, out of jail. No problem right now. Now there's something that's going to

happen to them eventually. But what happens to the average cop in a car? Overall morale, I've been, as you say, in the business for 50 years, associated with New York City for 25 years. The morale of the average New York cop is about as low as it's ever been. They do not feel supported. Why? Because with the exception of the mayor, they are not supported. We have a city council that is the worst council I've seen in my time in New York City. The anti-police attitude of that council, as evidenced by the vote they just took on the How Many Stops Act, is an example of that. And so New York's going to have to start waking up to the fact that it's the old expression, the thin blue line.

Well, that thin blue line is getting very frayed. And it's ironic because as Reverend Al just pointed out, in a minority majority city, the NYPD is a minority majority police force. Almost 60% of the officers are minorities. That's what everybody's been looking for. But if the public is not going and the politicians are not going to respect what they've been striving for. Why don't you think the cops are going to feel very bad about the job? And they're having tremendous time difficulty recruiting cops. This is the worst time I've ever seen in my 50 years in terms of not only specifically to New York, but in general across the country. Now, you see it happening in New York. You see it happening in Washington, D.C., which is just dreadful. The situation in D.C. is just dreadful right now because, again, you've got the city council members and elected leaders, again, who are just letting chaos ring

there. Philadelphia, it's almost impossible for them to hire new cops in Philadelphia. Tough, tough times. Commissioner Bratton, thank you so much for being with us. Danny, let me ask you about, we've been hearing yesterday that we were probably going to get a verdict from the judge in the civil fraud trial. You say it may take a little longer. Tell us why.

I do. For the last couple of weeks, the one recurring question is how long until this immunity decision, how long until Justice N'Goran and the civil fraud, the attorney general case, how long before he issues his opinion? And my answer that I give you would be based on normal, mortal, everyday cases. And these cases take a long time. Just take a look at Justice N'Goran. That's the civil fraud trial here in New York. He issued an opinion on summary judgment that was well-reasoned and it ran many pages, upwards of 20, maybe more by my memory. So that means he needs to consider everything. And ideally, hopefully, he waited until the end of the case to begin drafting it. Hopefully he didn't make his decision beforehand. And so he's got to draft it. He knows, as with all Trump cases, people are

going to study these opinions for years as if they are religious texts. So you're at least going to run spellcheck on it. You're going to go over it a few times with your clerks. You're going to make sure that you've got it right. So, yes, we've seen, for example, Bush v. Gore. The Supreme Court can get things out at breakneck speed. But you know what? A lot of folks have gotten a little spoiled with these high profile cases and courts coming out so quickly. And I've been pointing, for example, separately to that opinion decision that we've all been waiting on. It takes a while. People expected it last week, the week before. In a normal case, these things would take months, not weeks, months. So Justice and Gorin may not be today. If he does,

hey, good on him for banging it out that quickly. But don't be surprised if it takes longer than we all expect. And you're saying the same thing with the immunity. Yeah, I've been going back and forth. I'm talking about the D.C. Circuit immunity decision, which, of course, is a very weighty, important decision. And this the D.C. Circuit is often thought of as the second most prestigious court in the land. They know whatever they write is going to be hotly, hotly contested, reviewed and really cited for decades to come. All right. All right. MSNBC legal analyst, Danny Savalos, thank you so much. It was good to have Bill Bratton on, by the way. We want to note the former commissioner, Bratton. He has a book out.

His latest book is entitled The Profession, a memoir of policing in America. And still ahead on Morning Joe, an emotional phone call from President Biden to the parents of a soldier recently killed in that drone strike in Jordan. We'll hear some of that and have the latest on the U.S. response to the attack. Plus, Donald Trump's 2024 campaign issues an unusual message to mega donors. Ignore Trump's words. What a top advisor is telling wealthy Republicans. Morning Joe, we'll be right back. Hold your glass up Hold it in Never betray the way you always know it is One day I'll be watching out I'm so just watching out

At Trump University, we teach success. That's what it's all about. Success. It's going to happen to you. Donald Trump is without question the world's most famous businessman. As a real estate developer, he has reshaped the New York skyline with some of that great city's most prestigious and elegant buildings. Now, Donald Trump brings his years of experience to the world of business education with a launch of Trump University. Oh, my God.

Before there was the hush money payment. People paid money. A lot of people paid a lot of money for that. And the defaming of a woman that he sexually assaulted. And the attempting to overthrow American democracy. People enrolled in that course, Willie. Donald Trump found himself in legal trouble over a fraudulent business school he created. It wasn't real Willie. Wait, we're not getting any Willie reaction.

Well, I've got the valedictorian of the class in 2008. Well, that tells you everything you need to know. You have to pay a little extra to be the valedictorian. Once you told people, hey, I'm a graduate of Trump U, those doors opened wide. Yeah, they do. The jailhouse doors. All right. In November of 2016, just days after being elected president, Trump agreed to pay $25 million to the thousands of people he tricked into paying for classes at Trump U over the course of a five year period. Geez. Joining us now, the prosecutor in that case, former assistant New York attorney general

Tristan Snell. He's the author of a new book entitled Taking Down Trump, 12 Rules for Prosecuting Donald Trump by Someone Who Did It Successfully. So, Tristan, thanks so much for being with us. What's the most important of the 12 rules? What's the first thing you just got to know going in? The first thing is you got to actually have the right leadership in place. If you don't bring the case at all, if the prosecutor doesn't have the courage to bring the case, let's say that there's the credible accusations.

If you don't actually start digging and green light the case, it's not going to go anywhere. And when you do green light the case, you have to have total buy-in, you say. You have to have total buy-in all the way through the ranks. It's got to come from the top official, whether that person's elected or appointed, and then all the way through down to the line prosecutors. And then you need to get out of the way and let those line prosecutors do the work. What's the next step? Then really the middle part of the book talks about a bunch of steps around investigation. And a lot of it is you've got to be able to fight back when Trump stonewalls you. You've got to get creative about getting documents and testimony from other parties like his vendors. He doesn't pay those people a lot of the time. So some of

those people can be your allies and they can break open your case. Yeah. The list, there's a lot in there. I'm looking at a number 11 right now. Trump will lash out, ignore it. That is such a big part of taking on Donald Trump, as we've seen from all these prosecutors, as we've seen from the judges, as we've seen from defendants, as we've seen from Eugene Carroll. He's going to attack you, go after your credibility. How do you deal with that? He attacked me. In our case, he didn't attack me by name, but he accused, his lawyers accused me of fabricating the witness testimony. We had dozens of affidavits from these brave folks who were willing to step forward and talk about what had happened. And he accused me of making it all up, you know, and look, I had it easy. These folks have it hard. The folks that

have been doing this, they've been doing it wonderfully. You have to have a stoic attitude and just keep pushing. I think we saw it especially recently from Eugene Carroll, the fact that she just kept on pushing on this. And for years, that's the way to do it. You can't let him rattle you. It isn't part of the reason a lot of people, whether it be prosecuting him or do business with them. Back up is because they don't want to take the battering and they get intimidated. That's right. Reputations will be marred in some way. And isn't it that you have to have, you know, like a stiff back in order to stand up to him? Because when you say like lead prosecutors at all, you had the advantage of a of someone that was at the top of your office that had still nerves that couldn't be intimidated.

Isn't it that character that that is required to go up against Trump in any form? Hundred percent. And the intimidation factor and then the co-opting factor, the fact that he was able to cozy up to certain prosecutors and get them to stand down. Those are two of the biggest ways that he was able to evade justice for 40 years, really. And from 1973, when he first got sued for housing discrimination, all the way till 2013, when we brought the Trump University case, he pretty much didn't have anything on him. And now you're starting to see that really turned the tide. And now we see more and more cases and more and more private litigants managing to score hit points on him. You know, rule number eight is get Trump under oath. Isn't that kind of meaningless when you're dealing with a pathological liar?

I mean, get him under oath. That's one thing. And he's represented by lawyers who often don't get paid. Right. I mean, that's sort of a degree of difficulty there is pretty high the kicker though is that you're gonna if you do it right and robbie caplan who's eugene carroll's lawyer i write about this in the book did a great job of this it's not just getting him under oath it's then it's then managing to get just the right question in not everybody everybody would have thought to say, oh, let's show him the Access Hollywood tape. She did that. But then some of the questions she asked, she asked him, are you a star?

Because the whole thing is that he says, when you're a star, they let you do it. Are you a star? And that activated his narcissism. So all of a sudden, he's like, either he has to eat his ego and say, oh, I'm not a star, or he's going to say, I am a star.

And then that led him to those moments there where then he basically said that he had the right as a high-privileged male to do what he did. The deposition is incredible to watch. It's the most devastating deposition maybe I've ever seen. I was transfixed watching the entire thing. It's really worth it. It reveals his true character. And also, you do see how deft and brilliant the attorney is. They did a great job of that. She just strings him along. I was just

looking at our notes. Some of the memberships, if you call that into Trump University, $35,000. Are you kidding? People paid $35,000. It was as much as tuition or more. I mean, it was an enormous amount of money. They upsold everybody to that. That was the key. And that's where they actually made a lot of the money. It ruined it. People lost their life savings. They lost their nest eggs.

They lost their homes. They were in crippling credit card debt. It was horrible what he did. And these were his super fans. These were the people who loved him the most. These were people that loved him in The Apprentice. That's why they were coming to Trump University. This was from 2007 to 2010. And he they loved him the most. And he knifed them and took their money. Well, you know, you're you're really you're describing what's going on right now. That's

exactly people who love him the most are writing checks to his campaign or they're in jail taking that money and he's using that money for criminal defense and for for civil defense he's using that money uh for you know flying his jet around the country yeah going from one one lawsuit to another the people who you know can afford it the least, are the people that are giving him the most money right now. And it leads to my question that I think a lot of people have, but you more than most have experience with Trump up front, up close. How many times did you think to yourself after this trial, you'd sit there, watch your TV and say, this guy became president of the United States? The whole thing was incredibly surreal. When we were doing the case, we would joke about what

would happen if Trump ever actually got into politics. And we just thought it would be like 30 seconds. It would be a publicity stunt. And he would be out because as soon as that glare came on him, you know, people would see him for what he was. And it's just been absolutely shocking, horrifying. I mean, I'm kind of numb to it now. You just have to keep you have to keep pushing and and you just have to keep on trying to tell the truth about what it is. But it's it is it's amazing to me. But he's truly he's conned, as you were saying, he's really conned these people. And we see it to this day. And people don't realize they've been conned right up until that critical moment. I think we're going to get there someday, but we're not there. I think a lot of folks that currently support him are going to realize who he is and that he's not in their

corner. The new book is entitled Taking Down Trump, 12 Rules for Prosecuting Donald Trump by Someone Who Did It Successfully. Former Assistant New York Attorney General Tristan Snell, thank you very much. Congratulations on the book and thank you for bringing it here to us. And still ahead, we're going to go through the new warning on China from FBI Director Christopher Wray. We'll discuss that and much more with former National Security Advisor John Bolton. He joins us just ahead on Morning Joe. And it's before the top of the hour. Time now for a look at some of this morning's headlines from across the country. The Columbus Dispatch reports that President Biden is planning a trip to East Palestine, Ohio, this weekend, one year after a freight train carrying hazardous chemicals derailed there. Fearing explosions, authorities released and burned the chemicals, sending huge hazardous smoke plumes over the entire area.

Biden initially faced criticism from residents for not visiting when the incident first occurred. The Tampa Bay Times leads with a federal judge's dismissal of Disney's lawsuit against Governor Ron DeSantis. Disney argued DeSantis stripped Disney Disney World of certain privileges to retaliate against the company after it spoke out against his controversial legislation that was dubbed by critics as the Don't Say Gay Bill. A spokesperson for Disney said the battle quote will not end here. The Indianapolis Star reports an Indiana state representative showed his gun to students visiting the statehouse. In a video posted to X, Republican Representative Jim Lucas was seen discussing firearms with the students when one asked him if he carried a gun. He then pulled back his coat to show a holstered handgun. After receiving backlash, the representative posted to his Facebook page, quote, I fear and pity those that are being indoctrinated to fear that which is their best means of self-defense. And in Georgia, the Ledger Inquirer is highlighting a proposed bill that

would add watermarks to election ballots in the state. The Georgia House passed the bill in near unanimous vote. If it passes in the state Senate, watermarks could be added to ballots as early as the general election in November. Ballots in the state are already printed on special security paper, but Trump supporters continue to pursue claims that votes in the 2020 election were forged by Martians that took over the bodies of former Atlanta Braves players from 1967 who had been through a Star Trek, you know, one of those things. And then they came back here and then they got into a back to the future car. Bob Horner voted 25 times.

All right. We're learning more coming up about what U.S. Bob Horner, Biff Fokarova, Pat Rockett. Here we go. Oh, there we go. Wait, we have that on command? Wow. What a nice job in the control room. Wow.

That's good, baby. That's amazing. That a good. Nice job in the control room. Isn't that it? Wow. That's good, baby. That's amazing. That's good. So, yeah. So, that's what Trump supporters say. That's a fun game. Throw out a name and see if they got it. Are you done?

Pat Rockett. All right. Very good. Yeah, I guess I'm done. Okay, good.