Morning Joe - Morning Joe 2/13/23

Episode Date: February 13, 2023

Patrick Mahomes leads Chiefs to thrilling 38-35 Super Bowl victory over Eagles

Because we have not been able to definitively assess what these recent objects are, the president wanted to act out of an abundance of caution to protect our security and our interests. So we will remain vigilant. Certainly the capabilities of the surveillance balloon from the PRC, but also the nature of these unidentified objects to better understand were they surveillance objects? What was their purpose? What are their capabilities? Close encounters of the unknown kind. military brought down a suspected Chinese spy balloon off the coast of South Carolina, the White House ordered the shooting down of three more unidentified flying objects over the weekend. What are these things? You know, it's interesting. They would not call them balloons. They said there's a reason we're calling them objects and not balloons. Something else. We'll dig into what on earth is going on here. Come on, y'all. We're also following a number of political developments, including former President Trump's 2020 presidential campaign,

reportedly paying a reach search firm to find evidence of voter fraud, keeping those findings secret. You know why they kept it secret? Why? They didn't find any proof. Literally, that's the news. I mean, of course. Yeah. they didn't find any proof. Literally, that's the news. I mean, of course. I mean, well, I mean, it's not news because this could be the case for a couple of years now, but it is fascinating.

I believe the former president wanted the firm to lie for him. Yeah, yeah. Plus, the former president reportedly testing out new nicknames for Ron DeSantis, the head of a potential 2024 primary matchup against the Florida governor. There's some good ones. Ron, we'll reveal that one. But I take offense to one of them. Jonathan O'Meara, you.

I'm seriously triggered. You think one of these prove that Donald has his high heat back? No. There was some skepticism among Republicans and, frankly, Trump supporters about his original nickname attempt for Ron DeSantis. Ron DeSanctimonious. It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. But as this reporting in the New York Times reveals,

he's telling associates, Meatball Ron. That's what he's calling the governor of Florida to friends. I'm not sure I can do this show today. And that feels more like the Lion Ted and the Crooked Hillary and all those that worked for him in previous campaigns. Meatball Ron. Mika is very offended that her cat's name would be used in vain.

Yeah. But at the same time, though, a couple things about that. One, I guess they don't have mirrors at Moralago. And two, you know what rhymes with meatball Ron? Meatball Don. Of course. Just blows off the tongue, which is why he's probably not trotted that one out. Those two could be meatball squared.

Let's talk about the Super Bowl. Okay. Here we go. Here we go. Hurts. Has all day. Now some rushes come. throw it as far as his arm can take it and the kansas city chiefs have won super bowl 57 that's the chiefs winning their second nfl title in four years coming back and they came back in the second half, just dominating the second half to beat the Philadelphia Eagles, probably the best all-around team in the league last night.

The Chiefs trailed for most of the game with their quarterback, Patrick Mahomes, playing through an ankle injury, aggravated on a tackle in the second quarter. A lot of people asking, was he going to even be able to come out second half? Oh, he came out. The Chiefs closed the gap in the second half, taking its first lead early in the fourth, where Mahomes tossed two of his three touchdown passes in the game. Philadelphia's Jalen Hurts broke the Super Bowl rushing record for quarterback, becoming the first quarterback to rush for three touchdowns and the first to throw for one and run for two more. But it came down to, well, a tough, questionable call. A penalty with the game tied with about two minutes left to play.

Facing third and eight, the Eagles 15-yard line. Mahomes overthrew his receiver, but a flag thrown for defensive holding gave the Chiefs a fresh set of downs. Changed the entire complexion of the game, obviously, at the end. Eagles quarterback James Bradbury, he admitted after the game that the crucial penalty was, in fact, a hold. But most Eagle fans and a lot of other fans didn't believe. So that decided the Super Bowl.

Fresh set of downs would allow Kansas City to run the clock out for sending Harrison Butker out for the go-ahead field goal. With eight seconds remaining, he had missed an earlier kick. Sealed 38-35 victory. Mahomes becomes the first league MVP to go on to win the Super Bowl since 1999 and adds a second Super Bowl MVP award to his resume. Wow. So let's bring in Mike Lupica, Jonathan O'Meara, Richard Haas and the Reverend Al.

Everyone's a little tired this morning. A little, little. I see some sleepy faces. A little tired. Why don't we just start? Why don't we just start, Mike Lupica, with. Well, I don't want to start. I don't want to start with a call because there were 59 minutes of greatness that preceded it. Talk about this Super Bowl. What a great, yeah, this happens when you have the two best teams in football, two great quarterbacks, and two great coaches. So talk about this Super Bowl. You know, Joe, I want to start with the losing quarterback. Jalen Hurts played one of the great games by a quarterback whose team lost the game that I've ever seen in the Super Bowl. And you have to give him all the props for

what he did last night in Glendale. But the other guy, Mahomes, playing on one good leg, great players do great things. We talked about this the other day on the show. When a game looks this even to me, I always ask myself, who's the best player in the gym. And in the second half, Patrick Mahomes, as great as Hertz was last night, he was the best player in the gym.

And how about that scramble up the middle for 26 yards? Unbelievable. And here's one other thing about that call, Joe, the same thing happened last year. The same thing happened last year. The same thing happened with Cooper Cup last year in the Rams. The Bengals got called for a hold. And all of these people who say you can't make that call then,

my question is, if you don't make it then, when do you make it? Well, I mean, it's a little bit different, isn't it, Jonathan O'Meara, if you're making that call in the first half of a game in the seventh week of the season and when you're making that call when it will decide the outcome of the Super Bowl. It just was not – there was a little tug there. I see that happening 100 times, hundred times a year on routes. And the ball is overthrown anyway. Again, I agree with Mike.

That's going to be called holding a lot. And Bradbury, boy, you know, really stepped up and said, yeah, I did it. But you hate to see a great Super Bowl decided that way. It's so anticlimactic. Yeah, I'm going to take the other side of this one from Mike. I just, I don't think you can call that there because you throw that flag. The referee throws that flag. He's deciding the Super Bowl.

With that much time left in the game, you give the Chiefs a first down. They can run out the clock, which they did. They kicked the three as time expired. They win. You know you're deciding the game. And the play wasn't even close. Mahomes missed him. So that is tough. But let you're deciding the game. And the play wasn't even close. Mahomes missed him.

So that is tough. But let's be clear, though. We can have our concerns about that call, but Mahomes was brilliant. Unbelievable. The Eagles defense couldn't get a stop. That was perhaps the most surprising and disappointing thing in this game, is the Eagles defense was really good all year long, and they were terrible yesterday. And they couldn't get Kansas City off the field. Give credit to Andy Reid, some really marvelous play design on some of these offensive plays. Left guys wide open the whole game, and Mahomes made throw after throw. It was a great game.

Hurts was terrific. Mahomes was even better, but tough to see it end that way. Mike Lubico, let's be clear, though. I mean, the Eagles' defense was good in the first half. They were beaten badly in the second half. But, you know, you were talking about you have a rule. You ask yourself who's the best player in the gym. I mean, in Super Bowls, I ask the question, who's been there?

Who's the person that's going to be able to handle the adversity the best? And, again, Jalen had a great game, but you can tell in places it was his first Super Bowl. But here, look at Andy Reid. Look at these play designs. You know, the announcers were saying, oh, he's going to run the ball up the middle for two plays on third and short. And here's another incredible design play. He goes in motion, cuts

back at the last second, wide open. I was like, Andy Reid doesn't run the ball up the middle two times and take chances. Let's just say it. I mean, what I said going into the second half was to Jack, we're talking. I said, well, you know, you've got a future Hall of Fame quarterback. We know. Mahomes is going. He's future Hall of Fame quarterback. We got a future Hall of Fame coach going into the second half. If they get a quick score, watch out because those are the two guys you want on your side in the second half of the biggest game in the world. Joe, the last time they played a Super Bowl in that stadium, Tom Brady brought his team from 10 points behind in the second half, which is exactly what Pat Mahomes did last night. And again,

he wasn't at his best physically, but he was his best as a football player. And again, you go back and look at the play that set up the last field goal where or on that bad ankle he runs 26 yards up the middle of the field and again great players do great things and in that moment and joe i thought the most important drive might have been the first one of the second half where the chiefs went right down the field and scored yeah yeah went right down the field and scored and And again, Andy Reid, you look at the plays he was calling. You look out. He set the Eagles up time and again. It was extraordinary play calling in the second half and kept the Eagles, a great Eagles defense,

back on their heels the whole time. All right. You know, Richard Haas, you have negotiated some pretty important international deals. Your special envoy to Northern Ireland. You've done all the important things. So help us mere mortals out here. The call, which this will be called forever, the call in Philadelphia, they'll be calling it the call. Was it a penalty? Should the ref let him play? What did you think?

Yes, it was a penalty. As you say, Bradbury showed total class. Should it have been called? Probably not. It was not egregious. It was not really player-defining, which ought to be the criteria. But, Joe, you're missing the big point here. Of course I am. As a Giants fan, the fact that Philadelphia lost makes this a great game.

Empire State Building was not bathed in green last night. It was a good game for New Yorkers. And the only football point of view, I thought both defenses had a bad game. I actually thought this was so offense-dom. Both quarterbacks had a lot of time yesterday. I was just surprised by the fact that neither defense really asserted itself in the game. There's really something. You remind me of Gene Robinson, who after Ohio State lost,

he brought up his favorite New Yorker cartoon of all times, where a dog says, it's not enough that dogs win. Cats must lose. And for New York fans last night, cats lost. Now, Rev, I remember very well. It was very exciting. I think it was 88, January of 88, maybe early February of 88. Doug Williams goes out on the field and, you know, he had been the spotty quarterback at times. But Doug Williams that night was on fire. He won the Super Bowl. The Redskins crushed the Broncos. And he was the first black quarterback in the Super Bowl and winning the Super Bowl. And that was a big deal. Everybody was talking about it.

I said, last night, it just kind of snuck up on us. At least snuck up on me. I was reading articles. Oh, this is the first time there are two black quarterbacks in the game. Also, the two youngest quarterbacks with age combined. I mean, history was made last night. And, man, two, just, let's just say this. Two incredible guys. two guys of deep

faith that talked about their deep faith, talked about their teams. They both so wonderful in adversity. These are guys that you'd want to be in a foxhole with, whether you're in business or on the football field, wherever you are. Now, no doubt about it. When you look at last night, two black quarterbacks competing in the Super Bowl, and it wasn't even a big deal, which shows how we've advanced. You know, I talk all the time about how far we still have to go. But last night showed culturally we've made some progress because I remember when Doug Williams first played. I'm not a huge football fan, but I make every Super Bowl watching it. I've even gone to a couple.

And both of these quarterbacks came up, perfected their sports. They are sons of athletes. They're the best we could have for black America. I was teasing some of the guys I was watching the game with. Is this the first time in our life we can't say let's root for the black guy? Because no matter who you rooted for last night, you were rooting for the black guy. But I probably if I had attended the game, as I have others, Joe, I probably would have been wanting to lead a protest against that call at the end. I would have been marching outside the stadium. I would have been leading the protest.

Of course. And one other thing, too. Isn't it interesting, Mike Lupica, that a couple years ago, all I heard was that the Colin Kaepernick controversy, the kneeling before the game, all of the great divisions that caused it was going to hurt the NFL forever. You had Republican pollsters telling me that that's one of the great divisions that caused it was going to hurt the NFL forever. You had Republican pollsters telling me that that's one of the reasons Donald Trump won states, that the NFL was up there. People turned it off. Friends told me they would never watch the game ever again.

The NFL has never been bigger. A couple of years later, the NFL has never been bigger. They've never made more money. They've never had more fans. There's never been more interest. Franchises. You look at the top 30 franchises in the world as far as value. I something like the top, you know, 24 of the 30 in the world are NFL franchises. This this game is bigger than ever before. So much for that controversy damaging it. You know what?

Even the controversy of that call last night, it somehow makes the event bigger. Joe, I've seen a lot of great games. I saw Brady come from 28 to three down one. This is one of the great Super Bowls ever played. And it puts a bow on what was a tremendous season in the NFL that ended up with a feel good story about DeMar Hamlin. Yeah. Oh, my God. What a season. I'm having gone to bed at halftime. I don't know how you all are doing it. But Mike Lubica, thank you very much.

His latest book, The House of Wolves, co-authored with James Patterson, is a New York Times. It just keeps selling me. Of course. It just keeps selling. Thanks for getting up early with us this morning. It's a Patrick Mahomes of books. We're going to turn to the news now. Now to the growing questions surrounding the White House's decision to shoot down three more unidentified flying objects over the weekend.

Less than a week after the U.S. military brought down a suspected Chinese spy balloon off the coast of South Carolina. The skies were active again. On Friday, President Biden ordered the military to shoot down an object flying near the size of a small car and was flying low enough that it posed a threat to civilian flights. On Saturday, at the request of Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, U.S. fighter jets shot down another object, which was small and cylindrical, flying over the country's Yukon territory. Later on Saturday, U.S. aircraft were sent to Montana to investigate an anomaly picked up on radar. But according to the Defense Department, they were unable to find the source. Officials say the radar blip reemerged overnight on Saturday. And after floating over Lake Huron near Michigan, President Biden made the call to bring it down.

It was described as an octagonal structure with strings hanging off of it with no discernible payload. Officials are now working to recover debris from the three sites to determine the object's origins and makeup. The winter conditions in Alaska and Canada are making that difficult. The objects are said to all resemble each other and not the suspected Chinese spy balloon shot down earlier this month. When asked yesterday about the possibility of the objects being extraterrestrial, a defense attorney said there was no indication of that. Joining us now, former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO, retired four-star Navy Admiral James Tafridis. He's chief international analyst for NBC News.

Admiral, good morning. We'll first ask you the call. Was it holding or not? I mean, we got to ask Adam on that. Yes, it was holding. And a really unfortunate way to end the game. I think everybody knows the actual highlight of the game was the U.S. Navy flyover at halftime. Exactly.

All women. Celebrating 50 years of women in the cockpit. That was a pretty great moment for my Navy. That was. So what do you make of this? A different object every day. Obviously, you're paying closer attention. There may have been this clutter, whatever it is up there all along. But obviously, they're paying closer attention to what's flying up there. The only thing is, even if these aren't spycraft, they're at 20,000 feet. They're at 30, 40,000 feet. You're suddenly talking about something that could take down a commercial airliner. Oh, yeah. And, you know, Ian Fleming, who wrote the great James Bond novel, said once that if someone shoots at you, the first time is happenstance.

The second time is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action. We're on around four here. This is starting to look a little campaign like. And I'm not a big believer in coincidence and international relations. So when you look at how China is reacting to the Philippine basing agreement, to the stand up of a new Marine Corps base in Guam, to Kevin McCarthy's talk of going to Taipei, I think there's a bit of campaigning going on here. But yes, Joe, you're right. We're also more situationally aware. That's what happened as a result of the first incident. I think you're going to see more of this because technology is changing and it's providing new means. And by the way, we tend to focus on China.

This could be Russia. The Arctic is becoming a real zone of interaction in that high north as well. So I think we're going to see more of this. And I know we'll be talking to John Kirby a little later on. Ask him about how integrated our radar systems are. That is a significant point we ought to focus on here. Yeah. Jonathan LeMeara, what's the White House saying? They haven't said much to this point, Joe. We expect to get a more substantial briefing today. And we'll certainly, as just noted, we'll hear from John Kirby in an hour or so. This, of course, Friday is when they announced I was in the briefing room at the White House on Friday when Kirby did announce that the shot, the shooting down of that object over Alaska. And then we've had a couple more over the weekend.

Frankly, that Navy flyover at the Super Bowl, surprising they didn't shoot one down while they were at it, considering such a such a trend. Richard Haass, my question for you is that we just heard this morning, a couple hours ago, foreign ministry in Beijing has said, hey, the U.S. has flown 10 balloons over our skies since 2022. We know they spy on us. We spy on them. Hey, the U.S. has flown 10 balloons over our skies since 2022. We know they spy on us. We spy on them. What's the sense here? Is this something that's always been happening and just now there's more attention to it?

And part two, this only is inflaming tensions between Washington and Beijing. What can be done about that? Well, in part one, my guess is this was not an area that either side was focusing a lot on. Now we're focusing a lot more on it. It's quite possible some Chinese agency, some Russian agency had decided this was almost an area you could go in the same way that we do with satellites. So my guess is it's been going on for some time. We're noticing it a lot more now. I think the question is, does it continue to go on? We don't know who may have authorized it in China or Russia or wherever. The real question is, do political authorities step in and say, and it gets to your second question, we've got to stop this or slow this down.

Whatever intelligence gain we're getting from this is not worth it. Clearly, this has now become highly controversial, if not unacceptable. And if we want to get the relationship back on track, we want to get the Secretary of State, say, to Beijing, we've got to cool it on this. But my guess is this was an area that there was a lot of activity and wasn't noticed. Now it's being noticed. And now the rules of the game are going to change. Well, chances are very good if the Chinese are doing it, we're doing it and probably doing it better. And they're not being able to detect our objects that are floating over there. I mean, if you know anything classified, please don't reveal it here.

But it's kind of like when people were talking about, oh, the Russians are able to hack into our computers. They said, yeah, just please, please just wait. And then, of course, in the Mueller report, we found out that as they were hacking, we knew what base was doing it, what building was doing it, what person sitting at what desk was doing it, what keystroke they used to to do the things that they were doing. So that's what I'm saying. I mean, we can protest and beat our chest and scream and yell and say this is the worst thing ever. Chances are good we're probably doing it and doing it better, aren't we? Well, let's just say we are pretty damn good at listening all around the world from space to every other place. Yeah. I'll give you three things that are net positives here. One is we're learning a lot. We are soaking up intelligence. We are going to recover every nut and bolt of these things that come out of the sky.

We're also very good at that. And our intelligence community is going to reverse engineer this and learn a great deal. Number two, little noticed, I think, but really terrific cooperation between the United States and Canada here. This is the absolute idea of NORAD, North American Air Defense. That's what NORAD stands for. You see it going back and forth. If you're going to stand and operate with another nation, having a big capable one like Canada on our border is a very good thing. That cooperation has gone very well. And then thirdly, to Richard Haas's point, I think both sides are going to say, look, the candle isn't worth the game here in terms of ratcheting up, creating challenges.

Let's let cooler heads prevail. I think that'll happen. Signal to watch Tony Blinken. When does that trip get reconstituted? Let's hope it's soon and let's hope the tension goes out of the system here. And Admiral, finally, we're coming up on the one year anniversary. We certainly will talk to you more about the anniversary of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Right now, the Russians have an offensive going. What are you looking at? Casualties and recently announced. And by the way, when I think casualties, I tend not to look at U.S. intelligence, which tends to understate them. I look certainly not at Ukrainian information, which for obvious reasons tends to overstate them. Watch the British, the UK

intelligence. These casualties are tracking toward a thousand killed a day. Not quite there yet. Don't forget, we lost, tragically, we the United States, 7,000 in 20 years of war. That would be a week's worth of what is going out of the Russian military in terms of killed and severely wounded. So I'm tracking casualties on that side of the firing line. And over here on the Western side, Joe, I'm tracking our resolve. So there, watch our president. When he goes to Poland, maybe he'll dip into Ukraine. Who knows? But that'll be a real signal. You'll see Putin give a big speech. That'll be a pack of lies. And you'll see our president give a speech that'll be a beacon of light. Watch those two. Wow. Yeah. And we can

think about it as Admiral laid it out. A thousand a day of deaths killed in action in Russia. Think about it. By the end of this week, yeah, well, by Friday, you will have more Russians killed this week than died in the Iraq war, than Americans that died tragically in the Iraq war. I mean, and the question is, I understand we have people on all the time that say Putin can just let as many people die as he wants. That wasn't the case in Afghanistan for the Russians. And I don't think it's going to be the case at the end here either. At some point, he's going to have to have an excuse

to declare victory and stop. And walk away and stop throwing these lives away. Stop throwing so many lives away. Retired Admiral James Stavridis, as always, thank you very much for getting up early with us. We appreciate it. Thank you so much. And still ahead on Morning Joe,

White House National Security Spokesman John Kirby joins us to weigh in on the growing number of objects that have been shut down in North American airspace. Plus the latest from Turkey as rescue crews growing number of objects that have been shut down in North American airspace. Plus, the latest from Turkey as rescue crews are pulling fewer and fewer Earthquake survivors from the rubble. Also ahead, forget about Ron DeSanctimonious. There is new reporting about former President Trump testing out different nicknames for Florida Governor Ron DeSantis. And the Must Read Opin opinion pages,

including Maureen Dowd's new piece entitled Scranton Joe is ready to go. We'll read from that. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. And you talk about Joe Biden a lot. I understand you think you're going to be running against him. I can see how you might get confused, but you're running for governor. You're running for governor. And I have a question for you. You're running for governor. Why don't you look in the eyes of the people of the state of Florida and say to them, if you're reelected, you will serve a full four year term as governor. Yes or no? Yes or no, Ron? Will you serve a full four year term if you're reelected governor of Florida? It's's not a tough question it's a fair question he won't tell you uh okay later he blurted out i like purple uh if that's

how florida governor ron de santis handled an attack oh my god from charlie christ in the gubernatorial debate how's he gonna handle the incoming from Donald Trump? New reporting from The New York Times suggests Governor DeSantis is going to take a similar tact and not lash out at Donald Trump, at least not yet. Even as the former president steps up his attacks. Why are these important? Because they actually were really difficult for Beller candidates. Jeb, you look at what happened with Jeb, low energy Jeb, lying Ted. I mean, it actually will have the same effect this time. There's a question we should ask. Now, the Times knows quote, DeSantis has pursued a strategy of conflict avoidance, delaying what is likely to be a hostile

and divisive clash that forces the party's voters to pick sides. According to The Times, Trump has spent weeks trying to goad DeSantis into a fight, describing him in conversations as Meatball Ron, an apparent dig at his appearance. Again, no mirrors at Mar-a-Lago. Or Shutdown Ron, a reference to restrictions the governor put in place at the beginning of the COVID pandemic. And again, obviously, he can't read because if he could read his own press releases from the White House, he told governors they needed to shut down. When asked about Trump's attacks, DeSantis has mainly countered by reminding voters of Trump's election losses. And that's the thing your advice would be. That is exactly what he should do. Well, I mean, that is what he should do.

And I think actually, I think DeSantis, of course, he looked terrible in that debate with Charlie. Well, there was a little sort of you need to know that the the moderator was the only one who was supposed to be asking questions. So he might have been sticking to the rules. Not that. Hey, listen, his airport is disgusting. So thanks, Ron DeSantis.

Let's not talk about Miami. But I'm not going to, I'm just going to be not defending him. No, OK. Well, anyway, you don't look that way in debates. But anyway, so I will say, I'm going to go to Rev in a second. But first, Jonathan O'Meara, I will say, I mean, we were talking about how Trump had lost his fastball. I mean, his first nickname was something like Ron Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious. Tough on a bumper sticker.

Yeah, he tried to put that on bumper stickers. Very hard to do. Then it was Ron DeSanctimonious. Tighten it up a little bit. But then he goes to Meatball Ron and like that tweet that you sent me yesterday. It's like a reliever who had lost his

stuff suddenly remembering how to throw a 98 mile an hour fastball high. Yeah, it is. I mean, this is all childish and immature and ridiculous. Let's put that there to start. But in the category of childish and ridiculous things, good nickname. I mean, this one has a chance to stick, although you're right. Certainly it's not very self-aware of the former president considering his own appearance.

And and the covid thing is an interesting choice as well to hit DeSantis for being easy on covid. When DeSantis outside of the first couple of weeks has made a point of going to the right of Trump on pandemic response. So, Rev, I'm not sure that necessarily is going to play either. But really what this is about is the opening act, right? And DeSantis, to this point, has chosen not to respond. He's trying to be above the fray. But I think people who know both men suggest that even DeSantis supporters know that he's untested on the national stage. He'll have to get better at debate moments like that. And Trump, for all of his flaws, and it would take us weeks to go through them, he is good at attacking political opponents. That's an undeniable skill that he has.

How do you see this playing out in these early stages of this fight? Well, what is interesting to me is how he froze in the debate more than how he responds to Trump. You know, I ran in 2004 in several of the primaries for president. When you get on the big stage, it's different. And I don't know DeSantis has shown he can rise to the big stage. I mean, because I don't care how much pressure you get before that. It's different up there. They analyze everything.

And when you can't answer a question that you should have known was coming in the Charlie Christ segment we just showed, where you should have been prepared for that, I'm wondering But when you get up there and they start coming at you hard and these are not your friendly guys at the Miami Herald, you are going to be tested. And I don't know that DeSantis has showed us that he has the metal to really perform at that level. Well, and, you know, and Rev brings up such a great point. He's only one of us that's been there. And everybody that has been there said we can talk about it all we want to. But when you're on the big stage, it's like nothing you've ever been through before. And some people take off in a way that is least expected. At least expected. I've got to say Trump filled up the big stage. That's why Trump won the Republican nomination, because he knew how to fill up the big stage. We've seen a lot of candidates that get up there and don't know how to fill up

the big stage. And so it is. What is it? What did you say about what was the James Brown quote about playing the clubs and arenas? Yeah. James Brown, the first time I went with him to Las Vegas, I was still like 20 years old and he showed me the lounge he says you see that lady singing I said yes she says he says we're going in the big room where I'm doing the show there's a difference between a lounge act and playing on the big stage in the showroom because the audience in the lounge they're smoking and they're drinking and you're doing whatever you got to do to get their attention on the big stage you've got to perform. Those people played $100 or more ahead.

And I don't know DeSantis has showed us he's prepared for the big stage. As grotesque as Donald Trump was, he knew how to play that big stage. I don't know if DeSantis has shown us he belongs on that stage. Well, and that's what makes the difference. And again, we all talk, we're talking in the abstract here. But when you have, and it is the big stage, and it is also, it's a lot like boxing. They have Mike Tyson. Everybody has a plan until you punch him in the mouth. Think about Donald Trump, Jeb Bush. Everybody said Jeb Bush was going to win. Everybody said Jeb Bush was going to win. All the smart money was on Jeb Bush. They get on the debate stage donald trump calls him low energy chap he just keeps going after him that's the end of it marco rubio cover of time magazine the future of the

republican party that's what time magazine thought that's what a lot of people said you get donald trump he makes fun of marco rubio for sweating he calls him little marco It is it is a nickname that has stuck. And people still in Washington refer to him. I mean, not not in front of the center, but still refer to him as a little Marco. You can you can say the same thing for Ted Cruz, say the same thing for all of these people. And and, you know, the response, Richard Haass, doesn't have to be an insult going back. I mean, you could you could just say, listen to this. You're so cute. You're so cute with your nicknames. That is so. Listen, why don't you just go back and try that on a group of people that are too stupid to respond?

Because I can respond, Donald. You know what else I can do? I can win. You can't. 2017, loser. 2018, loser. 2019, loser. 2020, loser. 2021, loser. 2022, loser. And 2024, loser, Donald. So you figure out your cute nicknames. I'll figure out how to win finally for the Republican Party. And we'll both have a better 2024. I mean, he doesn't have to do that. But just if he comes with something strong, mocks him, pushes him to the side. Great.

But no Republican, Richard. And this is what I just can't understand. Nobody's figured out how to do that. And it's just not that hard. Look, you can't beat something with nothing. So I understand the tactics of not wanting to get down in the mud. That's what Trump's really good at. It's not clear DeSantis would emerge from that, shall we say, victorious then so he can continue to push his cultural agenda. He can continue to go after Biden. The Biden administration clearly has all sorts of vulnerabilities.

My guess, Joe, look, you've been in this game. I haven't. It's tactical. And you see what works. But my instincts would be DeSantis is probably right not to get into a slinging match with Trump. He's gotten where he is by not doing that. And again, I think he's got things he could attack the Biden administration for. And more broadly, the Republicans could use an agenda. It would be nice if one of the Republican candidates came through with a serious agenda for what they would do for this country. I haven't heard it yet. A serious agenda. And, Mika, you never fight anybody on their ground.

You never give them the high ground. You never, ever let them maintain their balance. And you look at the 16 people that ran against Trump in 2016, they all let him define, you know, the debate. And it was like, oh, he's such a disruptor. Look at all the horrible. He's insulting people. Now you pull back and you figure out before you go on that debate stage, how do I disrupt his attempts to disrupt? How do I make him fight on my terms? And if you have half a brain, you can figure out how to do that. Every Republican in 2016 was reactive.

They were reacting to his shock opera. Let's see if DeSantis can figure out a better way to do it. And after all that losing, Trump has a record now that these Republicans can talk about. And they can really put into words reality versus

bullying kindergarten names coming up. It just could could change the dynamic a little bit. We're learning new details about a classified documents folder. Former President Trump's legal team recently turned over to the Justice Department. My Lord. Plus, a look at the morning papers, including a new effort in one state to require social media companies to get parental consent before allowing anyone 16 or younger on the platform. I like that. I like that idea. Good luck with it. I like that. By the way, Washington is waking up at 643 a.m. wondering when their football team will make it back to the playoffs. Wondering when they will actually get rid of their owner so they can go back to the Super Bowl.

All right. A beautiful shot of New York City on this Monday morning. It is 6.48 a.m. on the East Coast. Time to wake up, everybody. It's time now for a look at the morning papers, headlines making news across the country. The state has a front page feature on former South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley's expected presidential announcement. The Republican is holding an event in Charleston on Wednesday, where she will likely launch her campaign for the White House. Haley would be going up against former President Donald Trump, who currently is the only Republican to announce a presidential bid.

In North Carolina, the state's fill record and landmark reports the U.S. Army is struggling to recruit new members because the younger generation is worried about their safety. The head of Army Marketing says young people don't see the Army as, quote, something that's relevant in their lives. Last year, the Army had its worst recruiting year in decades, falling 25 percent short of its goal. The South Jersey Times leads with a poll that finds the majority of New Jersey residents want high schools to start later. 55% of those polled supported a bill that sets 8.30 a.m. as the earliest time

a high school can start. New Jersey does not have a statewide standard for school start times, but the average high school starts just before 8 a.m. And finally, the day reports Connecticut lawmakers are proposing a bill to require social media companies get parental consent for any user 16 years old and under. Supporters say this could help improve children's mental health and protect their privacy. Former President Trump's 2020 presidential campaign reportedly paid a research firm to find evidence of voter fraud, but kept the finding secret when no proof was found.

The Washington Post reports the campaign never released the final results after the research team disputed many of Trump's theories and could not find any evidence that he actually won the election. That is according to four people familiar with the matter. The Post writes the campaign paid researchers from the Berkeley Research Group, the people said, to study 2020 election results in six states looking for fraud and irregularities to highlight in public and in the courts. Among the areas examined were voter machine malfunctions, instances of dead people voting and any evidence that could help Trump show he won. The people said the research was done in the final weeks of 2020 before Trump supporters stormed the Capitol on January 6th. Former President Trump continues to push the big lie today, despite the commissioned research saying otherwise. In a statement, a Berkeley Research

Group spokesperson said, quote, our experts provide independent and objective factual analysis. And as a matter of firm policy, we do not comment on client engagements or on privileged and confidential matters. NBC News also reached out to the Trump campaign for comment. A spokesman responded with a statement attacking Joe Biden and again suggesting Trump won the election. Since the election that he lost, multiple courts and swing states have confirmed former President Trump did not win. Let's bring in former U.S. Attorney Joyce Vance. She's an MSNBC legal analyst. And Joyce, what do you think is important about this news as it pertains to the big lie and legal efforts to prove that Donald Trump

was trying to overturn the election and knew he lost. It's important evidence for the special counsel to have, Mika, because when you're talking and we've talked for months now about the fact that prosecutors will have to prove that the former president knew he had lost but nonetheless carried out the conduct connected with January 6th and his effort to prevent certification of the vote. So the way prosecutors do that isn't just with one piece of evidence. What you really need is layer upon layer of circumstantial evidence. You don't have a confession from Trump that he knew.

So you achieve your proof as a prosecutor by showing through multiple people and multiple events that there's strong indication that he knew. At this point where you have an outside independent firm that's highly regarded confirming that there was no fraud involved in the election, if prosecutors can prove that that was communicated to Trump, it's really the nail in the coffin. So let's talk also on January 6th, Joyce, some news that the special counsel, Jack Smith, issued a subpoena to former Vice President Mike Pence. Pence's team has not committed one way or the other where they're going to comply. There's a sense, though, there may not. So if that's the case, do they have any ability to not comply with the subpoena from special counsel? And just speak

to us as to what an escalation in some ways this is, that if this special counsel clearly is a sign they're not just focused on Mar-a-Lago documents, they're focused on January 6th and the most inner, most members of Trump's circle. You know, we have gotten so used to the former president getting away with running circles around the legal system that people might forget that compliance with the federal grand jury subpoena is not optional, right? Mike Pence will show up. He will testify. Trump's attorneys very likely will try to litigate executive privilege claims.

They won't work, because executive privilege is meant to protect communications a president has as part of his governance of the country. It's not meant to protect communications a president has as part of his governance of the country. It's not meant to protect crimes. It's not meant to protect presidents who are trying to hold onto power after they've lost an election. And so Pence will testify. And as you point out, it really is an escalation in the special counsel's tactics.

It suggests that he is at the point where he needs to talk to the essential witness, Mike Pence, the only person other than Trump who knows exactly what happened on both sides of that phone call on the morning of January 6th. That's critical, critical testimony the government has to have. I would think. You know, the FBI discovered another classified document at former Vice President Mike Pence's Indiana home. According to a statement from Pence's team, the DOJ searched the home for five hours on Friday and removed one document with classified markings and six others that had no markings. Both Pence's team and the DOJ called the search consensual. It came after Pence reported last month that a, quote, small number of classified documents had been found in his home and turned over to the FBI. Meanwhile, there's a

new development this morning surrounding former President Donald Trump's mishandling of classified material. A senior law enforcement official tells NBC News the former president's legal team recently gave the Justice Department a folder with classified markings on it. The official said the folder was found last month at Mar-a-Lago in Florida and was handed over voluntarily to the DOJ. It is unclear what level of classification markings were on the folder or what it may have contained. At the same time, The Guardian reports Trump's lawyers turned over an empty Manila folder marked classified evening briefing after the Justice Department issued a subpoena for it last month. Once prosecutors became aware that it was located inside Mar-a-Lago, that's according to two sources familiar with the matter. In addition, around the same time that Trump's lawyers turned over the empty folder, they also returned in December a box of presidential schedules at Mar-a-Lago, of which a couple were marked as classified.

And in January, a laptop onto which the contents of the box had been scanned last year by a junior aide. Let's bring in the reporter behind the story, political investigations reporter for The Guardian, Hugo Lowell. And, Hugo, I understand that empty folder like might have been a prop that like to sort of look like he was busy, I guess. Or what would he use that as a prop for? Yeah, so the Justice Department, you know, we understand, issued a subpoena for this folder because it was located or seen in Trump's bedroom on his nightstand. And as you can imagine, that really alarmed the Justice Department. And I think, you know, Trump's lawyer has described on CNN yesterday that it was supposedly being used to cover a blue light that was flashing on his bedside table.

It was part of this conference call phone landline system that he has in his room. But I think all of—the fact that this classified briefing folder was in his bedroom and the fact that we still have classified documents in kind of boxes of presidential schedules being returned to the Justice Department makes this a really kind of bad few months for Trump. And, you know, even if you can't charge the classified folder itself, even if you can't get to Trump through the schedules themselves, I think in the big picture of things, this is really problematic, because

if the Justice Department can start tying these back, these spillages back, basically, to the original obstruction of justice in May, when Trump's lawyers failed to return all of the classified materials that were at Mar-a-Lago, then I think it kind of compounds the legal jeopardy that he's facing. So, Joyce, let's get your take here as a legal expert. What do these new developments then I think it kind of compounds the legal jeopardy that he's facing. So, Joyce, let's get your take here as a legal expert. What do these new developments mean in the ongoing case being built against Trump? So this gives the special counsel a real entree into some witnesses he'd like to turn into cooperators.

Once you've got a lower level aid photocopying, in essence, or perhaps scanning documents onto a computer, all sorts of red lights go off. You have to have a forensic examination of the computer to make sure that nothing was communicated any further. And if you, as the special counsel, want to put pressure on that low-level aid, it's very likely that that person would prefer to share with you all the information that they have rather than facing prosecution. So prosecutors like to work exactly that way, working up the chain of responsibility and ultimately finding the people who are the most responsible for criminal events.

This may well be a way in for Jack Smith. Oh, wow. Former U.S. Attorney Joyce Vance, thank you very much. The Guardian's Hugo Lowell, thank you as well for your reporting this morning.