Morning Joe - Morning Joe 2/15/23

Episode Date: February 15, 2023

The Morning Joe panel discusses the latest in U.S. and world news, politics, sports and culture.

I want to take a moment to say our hearts are with the students and the families of Michigan State University. It's the family's worst nightmare. It's happening far too often in this country. Far too often. While we gather more information, there's one thing we do know to be true. We have to do something to stop gun violence ripping apart our communities. Ripping apart. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It's very good to have you guys with us. That's President Joe Biden delivering his speech.

He said to get far too often as America processes another deadly shooting. We're going to have more on the victims and the suspected gunman. Just add also the White House seems to be downplaying three identified unidentified objects that were shot down over the past week with a new explanation of what they could be. And we're going to have new reporting on an aggressive plan from the Justice Department that could overcome claims of attorney client privilege from one of Donald Trump's lawyers. Ominous news for Mr. Trump. Plus, Mike Pence continues to stonewall any efforts to get him to testify about January 6th. Good morning. Welcome. Morning, Joe. It's Wednesday, February 15th. Willie, I was thinking we could talk about one of two things today, either the New York Times story. Do we have the Times here?

There we go. New York Times story on Italy's prime minister surprising Europe are pitchers and catchers reporting. Yes, sir. I'm going to take you know where I'm headed. I think Kat is going to jump in on the Italian prime minister. But we've got pitchers and catchers reporting today for your Boston Red Sox new season. They signed a couple of new hot dog vendors in the offseason, which is very exciting. They can really sling them as they move up and down those aisles at Fenway. But yeah, it's a new day, Jonathan Lemire.

Hope springs eternal in mid-February for every major league team. It dies quickly, but there's hope today, at least. Yeah, today's probably the best day of the Red Sox season, and it's all downhill from here. It's an underwhelming offseason for the beloved Old Town team. But what matters is baseball is back. It is. Yeah. Patrons and catchers reporting, we've got the World Baseball Classic this year,

which is why there's an early start for players. That's always a fun tournament. That'll take up a couple weeks next month before opening day at the end of March. And there's just something about you know it's early season workouts these guys are only playing about hour and a half and they're off to get their tea times but it doesn't matter it's a sign the spring is back baseball will soon be part of our daily rhythms again we were talking yesterday it's just great the beats of it super bowl ends you get a couple of days to recover you're wondering what am i going to talk to other human beings about without sports and here comes space yeah we don't have much otherwise. It's great.

Joe, the Yankees, I know you'll be very excited. Aaron Judge has already been down in Tampa for a couple of days, getting some reps at first base. He might move around a little bit after the big offseason signing. They've got a big new left arm in the rotation, top to bottom. They've got five great pitchers. Could be a very exciting season, though, as you know, we're all just trying to catch those Astros. Well, I'm just saying, you guys, with your payroll, it doesn't even count. I mean, Boston.

Did you see the deal those hot dog vendors got in Boston? You guys got money, too. We paid them a lot of money, plus the 38-year-olds. We have a ream of, I swear to God, we sound like 12, 38-year-olds. It's not like we're planning for the future. Caddy, Caddy, we could talk about baseball. Or we could talk about Italy. I'm your personal baseball.

The only reason I bring this up is I find this to be absolutely fascinating. You never know how somebody's going to be when they actually get in power. A lot of populists talk a big game, then they get in. And she understands suddenly what most people in the EU understand suddenly. It's a pretty good deal. It's a pretty good deal for the country, especially a country with as much debt. But Georgia Maloney, who we've heard time and again, arose her party, arose from the ashes of Mussolini. She's just being downright mainstream, doing the right things, presenting a good budget. And now the EU and European leaders have a choice to make.

Do we go ahead and sort of let her into the club or do we do what Macron did last week and not invite her to a meeting with other European leaders in Zielinski? Yes. So the realization with Maloney, who did, as you say, come out of Italy's fascist political period. I mean, I think there was no doubt that her party had been linked to neo-fascist movements. She has proved to be somebody who realizes where the money is coming from in Europe, and that comes from Brussels in Italy's case. And so she's been moderating her budget and she's been having good meetings with European leaders over that. But even on issues like Ukraine, where there had been fears that she would be really in the pro-Putin wing of Europe's more extreme parties on the right and on the left,

she hasn't been. She's been embraced. Zelensky and been solid on support for Ukraine as well from an Italian perspective. I have friends who work in the Italian Ministry of Culture, for example, a friend of mine who runs a museum, who says actually in some areas like immigration, gay rights, for example, abortion, cultural issues, she has allowed areas of her party to be more extreme on that. She hasn't tamped them down fully, but nothing like perhaps what people had expected. And it does leave Europeans in the position of, do we embrace her and give a sort of, OK, you can be on the right of European politics, or do we carry on shunning her having when she's doing what we kind of actually doesn't make sense to Sean at all. I mean, that was invited to Paris. Yeah. And it's a Lenski. You want to encourage

this type of behavior? They can't. Yeah. I mean, big, important country. We have the third largest economy. I mean, it's one thing for Hungary to be hungry. They're irrelevant. Let me say that again. Orban is irrelevant other than to right-wing conservatives who disgrace themselves by going over there, taking money, who claim they're Reagan conservatives and are now selling out to a guy who hates Western democracy. Good on you. We can't do that with Italy.

No, you can't do that. Italy can cause serious problems. It's a huge economy. Why not encourage this type of behavior? I mean, we see what's happened in Poland over the past year, a year and a half. Pretty dramatic changes from where they were. Look, I think the only choice for the Europeans is to take her as she presents herself as she is. And if she's going to present herself as a reasonable person, then I think they have to take her back. So here's the question. Was she like this all along and just promoting this image during the election?

Or has she seen the light as a pragmatist? I mean, as an opposition candidate, she was further to the right than she is now. Who knows whether that was what was really in her heart or whether. But she had years of projecting herself on the opposition as being more pro-Putin, more anti-European, certainly more anti-immigration. I don't know if the word fascist is exactly what you'd use, but in that wing of Italian politics. Yeah. And I will say also, I mean, the EU, I saw firsthand the impact the EU has on countries with smaller GDPs and say Italy Italy when I was going around after Auschwitz driving around Poland.

I just about two hours in, I said, my God, they have such a great interstate system here in Poland. I never thought the poll. And somebody interrupted me, said EU. And then we went to a rest stop and I said, my God, this is better than any rest stop in America. It's so clean. I never knew the polls. They go, EU. I mean, the EU really does have a big impact on these. You know, Britain ought to think about joining. It's a good idea. It's a good idea. Should we not go there this morning? It's what, like 6.07 in the morning when we visit Brexit? Well, it's 6.07 in the morning. I know everybody tuned in to figure out sort of the nuances of Italian politics.

You've got that now. Let's go to Willie with the news. Well, we also, the ratings show, they love discussion of Polish rest stops. It's just in the numbers. Oh, man, it's huge. The numbers are the numbers. What are you going to do? Why do you think I sprinkle it in?

Why do you think I sprinkle it in? I'm not proud of myself, but you got to do what you got to do. The numbers don't lie, Joe. All right, let's turn to another story making headlines this morning. NBC News has learned the special counsel investigating former President Donald Trump's handling of classified documents now is seeking to compel a lawyer for the former president to testify before a grand jury. That's according to a source familiar with the matter. In the sign of an aggressive new legal strategy first reported by the New York Times, the source says special counsel Jack Smith

has asked a judge to allow prosecutors to invoke what is known as the crime fraud exception, which would let them sidestep protections afforded to Trump attorney Evan Corcoran through attorney client privilege. The source tells NBC News prosecutors allege in a sealed filing they have evidence some of the former president's conversations with the attorney were in furtherance of a crime. Corcoran recently appeared before a grand jury in federal district court in Washington and believed to have asserted attorney-client privilege on behalf of Trump in refusing to answer certain questions related to his representation in the documents investigation. The source did not say which questions the government is trying to force Corcoran to answer.

NBC News has reached out to Corcoran and a Trump spokesperson for comment. So some of the Trump attorneys, John, hiding behind attorney client privilege. You can't make me talk about that. What Jack Smith and the special counsel reported to say, according to NBC News, is, well, if you guys were talking as attorney and client about committing a crime, we can get into those conversations. Right. That's different. And some legal experts talked to about this suggest that attorney client privilege, it's real, it's sacrosanct, but it's narrower than people think. Barbara McQuaid, among others, voicing that opinion in the last 24 hours. And that there is, to your point, Willie, the suggestion that if Trump and Corcoran were talking about committing a crime, well, that doesn't apply. And they can absolutely talk to Corcoran about this. They know that he had been

pleaded the fifth when he did testify before a grand jury in Washington not too long ago. But also, I think we should talk about what this signifies. And it's clearly an escalation from Jack Smith, that he is going after something that usually you don't see in these investigations, which is indeed the attorney of the subject of the case and a suggestion among some analysts who believe a signal that maybe he's entering sort of the final stages of this investigation. This is not something you would do early on. It's a sign that you're doing so because sooner than later, you might be bringing charges. And Joe, this is an aggressive tactic if, in fact, this is what Jack Smith is doing, the special counsel.

And you always know when Donald Trump is hearing the footsteps, he posted a long rant on his social media platform where he said the Gestapo came for his, quote, so-called documents. He said they're not documents. They're mementos. They're just folders to stop the blue light from that telephone by his bedside. I can't believe that one. That's all they are. Why would the Gestapo take that? Now, you know, he's desperate when he starts talking that way. But, Sam, there's there ominous signals coming from all of these investigations.

We hear about Georgia reports and and if possible, follow ups in the Georgia grand jury, people concerned about witnesses lying, that getting out with all the other information that's getting out. And here, I don't know what stage this is of the investigation, but when they start calling your lawyer, they try to pierce attorney client privilege. Let's just say that is never good news for the potential defendant. So, yes, I would caveat this that we've had conversations about the walls closing in on Trump many times before. Only about 8000 times over six years. The walls must be really tight. I didn't say that. No, no, no. But to your point, I think the big vulnerability, it seems to me, is ultimately going to be on this obstruction issue with respect to these documents.

That seems more clear cut than anything that has happened prior to then because it's so simple, right? We needed these documents from you. You defied our request for them. And not only that, now it appears we believe that your lawyers misled, if not outright lied, about the amount of documents in your possession. When your lawyers need to get lawyers, that's generally not good. And I think that's the case with most of Trump's lawyers. Right, basically. And I think in this case, you know, there's obviously multi-pronged elements here.

We have the Georgia investigation. We have the January 6th investigation, the subpoena for Pence that he's going to defy. In this case, though, this one seems where Jack Smith has a for Pence that he's going to defy. In this case, though, this one seems where Jack Smith has a clear lane that he's going down. And it's very difficult to understand what the actual response is from the Trump team to the charge that you obstructed this investigation. Yeah, there really doesn't seem to be a good defense when your lawyers are signing documents swearing that you've returned all the documents. Right. Now, he'll come up with something, right? He'll say, you know, in my mind,

I declassified everything, you know, but, you know, it just doesn't really pass much. But the quality of the lawyers from day one, Elizabeth, have been poor, extraordinarily poor. He picks people off of television and who the hell wants anybody representing them that's on television? But he picks people off of television. You know he doesn't pay them well. One lawyer after another lawyer comes into the picture and goes out, and he has so many problems facing him right now. We've counted up. There's probably about 20 to 2 dozen lawyers at any given point representing Trump,

and they all have lawyers. But in this case, what's interesting is you can't tell from this whether the prosecutor, whether Jack Spith thinks thinks that Evan Corcoran, the lawyer or Donald Trump committed the crime or both. It's hard to tell from the filing. But it looks like what he's zeroing in on is the fact that it was in June that Evan Corcoran drafted, according to people, the statement saying, you have all the documents. We've turned them all over. And then in August, of course, a lot more turn up. Well, it strikes me that the idea of piercing the attorney-client privilege, trying to get

beyond it, is in essence saying to Corcoran, look, it's going to be you or it's going to be your client. Right? Yeah. Your client's blaming you. So tell us. Yeah. Who's going to jail? Are you going to jail or are your clients going to jail? Your client's blaming you. So tell us. Who's going to jail?

Are you going to jail or are your clients going to jail? You can tell the smart Trump lawyers from the dumb ones because the smart ones demand to be paid up front. Right. As a couple of them have before instead of the others. But if your client tells you, I have turned over everything and you sign this and you write a document saying this. So who is it? Who is liable there? But I mean, given Trump's history, right? Wouldn't you think that any lawyer is not just going to take the former president's word for this?

They're actually going to want to see and go through the evidence themselves. I mean, it seems right. It seems a little unbelievable to me that Corcoran would have Trump come to him and say, I've had. Well, that's what you get. That's what you get. That's what you get. Lawyers off of television who are who only want the attention. They're not going to do the due diligence. They're not going to do the due diligence. Let me just say this. Ultimately, we were talking a couple weeks ago about how Biden's own classified documents issue muddied this. In fact, I think it's the opposite. What Biden ended up doing is showing a template for discovery of documents, participation and cooperation with federal investigators that will then be used essentially as a contrast to what Corcoran, Trump and others did down in Mar-a-Lago. I've got to say, I believe from the very beginning that Biden having these documents, doing it the right way, Pence having the documents, doing it the right way, actually wasn't a mitigating factor for Donald Trump.

It actually was aggravating. It was an aggravating factor because it gives us actually now three very clear approaches to this. You could immediately contact the archives. You could do what Pence did, which was immediately let people search the house. Or you could do what Donald Trump said. Say they're mine. Lie about it. Have your lawyer sign documents. Sam is right. Of all the things people are going after with Donald

Trump, the easiest to prove is the obstruction. Sam is what? Sam is right. I still question how much these distinctions are going to matter if Trump is indicted and nothing happens with with Joe Biden. I just imagine what the Republican Party is going to say. It doesn't really matter. I mean, it really doesn't matter. And that's the thing. People were talking about politics. I just think that at some point, Republicans are going to say, we really wish we had just given Merrick Garland the seat.

Because at the end of the day, I think he's a guy that goes by the book so much. He's not going to sit there going, oh, what are they going to be thinking about me on the Hill? Despite all the nasty things that progressives say about him on Twitter, I think he's just interested in justice. And at the end of the day, doesn't give a damn what Republicans on the Hill are going to be saying about him on Twitter. And that's not going to accrue to the benefit of Donald Trump. Yeah, he's deeply offended by the idea that justice is anything but justice, that you do anything but the right thing. And so, you know, I tend to agree with you that that's the way he goes. And the final analysis, if he believes he has a case that he should and must prosecute and that he can win.

I mean, I guess on the politics of it, Elizabeth, the question is, is there anyone who is remotely open to persuading either way on this anyway? I mean, yes, of course, Republicans will say that Donald Trump is being treated differently and that that guy is the victim of the administrative state. But I don't know that there are more than four people in the whole country that are open to being persuaded one way or another, were the Justice Department. This occurs in the context of a Republican primary fight, right? And there's going to be a whole class of Republicans who will use the idea of Trump being potentially under indictment as a cudgel against him, saying, look, this man presents a huge number of liabilities for us in a general election if he becomes our nominee. Now, if that's persuasive, I don't know.

But it's certainly not something you want hanging over you while you're trying to duke it out with other Republicans. It's not going to help. And you look at the polls on whether people think Trump did something wrong that that should be charged. You know, a majority say he should. So we'll see what happens, Willie. But but they're going to be a lot of Republicans are going to have to be trying to figure out how to nuance this if Donald Trump does get indicted, because the field looks like it's going to start filling up with a lot of people who used to work for Donald Trump. A lot of people used to work with him, were critical of him at first, praised him later, critical of him again after January 6th, worked in his administration, now running for president.

Nikki Haley is the first of what is likely to be a number of former Trump administration officials to announce a presidential run. The former South Carolina governor made her candidacy official yesterday with a video announcement. She will hold a formal kickoff event today in South Carolina and expected to travel to New Hampshire for three days of town hall events. Then, of course, she will head to Iowa. Former President Trump responding without attacking Haley, at least for now, in a statement he wrote, I told her she should follow her heart and do what she wants to do. I wish her luck, wrote the former and do what she wants to do. I wish her luck, wrote the former president. At least two other Trump administration alumni are expected to enter the race for the Republican nomination as well. Former Vice President Mike Pence has been traveling to key primary states.

He'll visit Minnesota and Iowa today. And former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo says he'll decide if he will run in, quote, the next handful of months. His team already has reached out to potential staffers in some early primary states. Meanwhile, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell was asked yesterday about Nikki Haley's announcement and whether it's time for the party to, quote, find a fresh face and move away from Donald Trump. Here is what McConnell had to say. Well, what I think we're going to have is a vigorous primary with a number of candidates making their case. And the American people, those who are registered Republicans who are going to participate in these primaries, are going to decide who they want to nominate. And I think it's going to be very, very

competitive in these primaries. And we'll hope for the best. And obviously, I'm going to support whoever the nominee ultimately is. John, it's a refrain we've heard many times. People who claim they don't like Donald Trump says they will support him if he becomes the nominee. Also interesting to note the way Donald Trump handles different opponents or potential opponents. Nikki Haley, he wishes her luck. She followed her heart. Ron DeSantis is a groomer, according to former President Trump. Well, as far as Nikki Haley goes, Trump is saying the water's warm. Come on in and hope others do, too, because it's in his best interest for this field to get as big as possible, because as we've been talking about, we know his base, his core base probably isn't going anywhere and they're going to follow him.

And the more the bigger the field, the better it is for him. He and Haley have had a reasonably good relationship. You know, she, of course, was his ambassador to the United Nations. She has flip flopped a lot as to whether or not Trump did the wrong thing on January 6th, whether or not she would run. She initially had said she wouldn't if Trump was in. She obviously changed her mind. I suspect that Trump will probably have warm words for others in his administration who also might want to run. We should mention Robert O'Brien, his former National Security Advisor. John Bolton, his former National Security Advisor, are also considering candidacies. We'll see how feasible any of those really are. On Haley, though, it's also interesting. There's a sense that she wanted

to get in ahead of Tim Scott, another one, a senator from South Carolina, her home state, thinking that she needed to jump in first to sort of ward off potentially that challenge. And look, this gives her a few days of headlines here. I mean, she's polling low, but this gives her a chance to donors a chance to have the stage to herself for a few days. But we're, of course, now waiting to see what others jump in. And the biggest fish into the water is Ron DeSantis. And there's certainly no chance that Donald Trump will welcome him. That's the that's the concern that the Trump camp and Joe Governor DeSantis was asked about Nikki Haley jumping in, asked about an announcement, and he just laughed it off, didn't even engage with the question. But do you see any of these Nikki Haley, for starters,

and some of these other potential candidates running against Donald Trump, whether it's Mike Pence or Mike Pompeo or Tim Scott or potentially Governor DeSantis as well as a real threat to Donald Trump in this primary? Well, Willie, you know that Caesars calls you and me when they want to set the lines for these political elections. And you will remember weeks out, we put the over under for Macron at fifty eight point five percent. And it was fifty eight point five percent. I am now ready to do the over under for every candidate we just mentioned, every candidate we just mentioned, Nikki Haley, the over-under, two and a half percent. John Bolton, 0.5 percent. Mike Pompeo, 1.25 percent. Mike Pence, five percent over-under. Tim Scott, 4.5%. Who else do we have there?

Got Larry Hogan, Brian Kemp, Chris Zanuno. Yeah, you know, I got to say, well, I mean, Kemp, zero. And I mean, Larry Hogan, God bless him. Love what he's done. God bless him, though, in this primary. John Bolton, one and a half percent. I'm sorry. It's pretty much it. You know, but Sununu is an interesting one. And I'm not I'm not willing to keep him in low single digits, maybe put him at seven and a half percent. But he's an interesting one. I still I still think and and and Gene, I still think this is Donald Trump's fill.

I still think everybody you put up on stage, maybe with the exception. And I'll say this of Chris Sununu, who's sitting at 70 plus percent up in New Hampshire and doesn't really put up with a lot of you know what? I think he can kind of punch him back he maybe he can you know we can we've got to see how some of these candidates will perform on a national stage and how they play in the rest of the country including ronda santos by the way we'll have to i know he does well in the in the polls now but when he gets out there he will be, I think, the most humorless, bombastic major candidate for president in a long time. I think that's going to end very bad. Yeah. I think that's one of these things. He's cloistered caddy in Tallahassee. Get him outside of Tallahassee. It's not going to go.

Yeah. Where did you put DeSantis? What was the under over? Oh, I didn't do an over under on him. I think it's going to start. I think it's going to start as high as a Chinese balloon over Montana. An end about the same. By the time it gets to South Carolina. It's crashed in the water. It's going to, yeah. I mean, the Trump people, I speak to are pretty confident that when they get, that DeSantis won't be able to withstand the Trump juggernaut of attacks when it happens and that he's too thin skinned.

He's too defensive. He's too awkward on a debate stage. And Trump will walk all over him. I mean, they seem confident that he'll go the way. Again, think about it. His stick is always. I've never seen him at a table like this. His stick is always call a press conference, ban library books or attack trans athletes and then yell at a female reporter. Like a woman will ask him a question and then he'll yell at him. Then he'll walk off the stage and people from all over America, Republicans will say, oh, he's great. I'm going to give him another million dollars.

It worked for Donald Trump, but he's a very different candidate than Donald Trump. Say what you want about Donald Trump. He was entertaining to a lot of people. I mean, he was. He was a show. He was a show. He was an entertainer. And Ron DeSantis does not show any evidence of that.

But he's done very well just by doing nothing, just staying in Florida. Right. And, you know, he's like the, you know, the big challenger to Trump. He hasn't gone out there at all. Yeah, it's very safe, Sam Stein, in Florida when you're in Tallahassee. And I'm dead serious standing behind your podium at very staged events. Again, you know, Charlie Crist just asking a basic question. Are you going to run for president? He just, he looked lost. A sheep wandering around the field looking for his shepherd. A sheep wandering out

of a rest stop inside War Sauce. A look that Donald Trump has never had. Exactly. To loop it all together. The only time I've ever seen Donald Trump look that confused

is when somebody put a Big Mac and a bucket of Kentucky Fried Chicken in front of him. He had to decide which way he was going to go. Was he that confused then? I don't know. Trump, that is. I guess I'm a little bit more bullish than you guys. On DeSantis. Yeah. Just because to me, there's just such an appetite and evident appetite among Republicans for someone other than Trump. I'm not saying Trump doesn't own a huge chunk. Well, Sam, why don't we talk about the Politico morning consult polls you brought to us this morning?

Wow. Yes, thank you for that opportunity. Yeah, we did a poll. It looks at the preference of GOP voters. What you can see is shocking numbers here, but, you know, important ones nonetheless. They want a conservative. They want someone under 70.

So that actually is the takeaway line, isn't it, Sam? What do you take from that? Well, that and also I thought the actual number that was intriguing of these numbers were was the political outsider, because usually you get voters saying, yeah, I want someone who's not part of the system. I don't like the governing body, even of my own party. In this case, it's not all that important to them. And I think both two things come to mind in that. One is that Trump is now not an outsider, right? Former president, not an outsider. But two, I don't think DeSantis is an outsider either. I mean, yes, he's not of Washington, but he came up through Congress and he's a governor. And so there is an appetite for someone with actual experience, not an outsider. But under the age of 70, really don't stick out. They're like Democrats too, right?

They want someone younger. And so in this case, I do think there's a good chunk of the party that's going to say, look, I just want to move on from Trump. Now, DeSantis really does struggle, ultimately, if the field is really crowded. And he really does benefit if fewer people jump in and it's just him and Trump. So when you see Nikki Haley get in, when you see Tim Scott saying that he's going to get in, Mike Pence, John Bolton, who knows Pompeo? That is the best thing that Trump has going from his splintered field where he can get that 35 percent of the voting bloc, which would ultimately be just like 2016. And, you know, Willie, if you look at the numbers that were just up and TJ, if you get a chance to put them back up again, the two numbers that really are fascinating are under the age of 70 and also has decades of political experience.

There actually is. That line suggests some buyer's remorse in getting a reality TV show host who promised a lot of things, but really, at the end of the day, delivered mostly gestures other than federal judges. And I actually think this is a very good development. I don't want an outsider in the White House.

I don't want an outsider when I need brain surgery. I don't even want an outsider when I need to go to the dentist. I want somebody who's been a dentist more than 15 minutes. And this whole idea, this fiction that both parties have been pushing over the past 20, 30 years, that we need outsiders, mainly Republicans, people that come in and shake things up. No, they don't shake things up. They get shaken down.

They don't know how to run this city. I'm not going to mention any names because I defend people on both sides of the aisle. But we've had too many people that became that became presidents of the United States over the past 30 years that love to tell us how much they didn't like Washington and would go upstairs and watch ESPN at 630 at night. Who could that be? OK, we're going to get our research. There is a down to two. Go ahead. Yes, yes, I hear you. Well, the other problem, too, for Governor DeSantis is how does he go after Donald Trump? Remember, this is the guy who, during his first gubernatorial campaign, had his children in MAGA onesies, their babies. And I'm not making this up. They were using those red blocks to build that wall, build that wall.

So I don't know how you pledge fealty and give credit to Donald Trump for getting where you are and then turn on him in a primary. Maybe he can pull it off. We'll see if he even gets in. We've got a busy morning ahead. We've got Senator Gary Peters of Michigan joining us to talk about the mass shooting at Michigan State. Also, a live report from Eastern Europe where Ukrainian forces on the front lines are in desperate need of supplies. Plus, Ron DeSantis continues his campaign against so-called woke politics. We'll explain the movement that is the latest target for the Florida governor. And a bit later, Democratic Senator John Tester of Montana joins us to talk about the Chinese surveillance balloon that flew over his state and the other unidentified objects the military has shot down since.

You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. Russia has begun its new offensive in eastern Ukraine, and Ukrainian officials are warning the country's fighters are getting low on ammunition. NBC News chief foreign correspondent Richard Engel has the details. Ukrainian tanks on the front lines are running out of ammunition. Commanders say stocks are so low they now only shoot when they can see their enemy. We use as little ammunition as we can, but still it's disappearing, says a battalion commander codenamed The Saint. Can you stop this Russian offensive? Now we can only hold them off, he says, but nobody knows how long we can keep doing it.

Their equipment is just too old. Get in now. This tank, like most Ukrainian tanks, is about 50 years old and spare parts are a problem. Ammunition is a major problem because Ukraine isn't making ammunition for these old tanks anymore. They are using the stockpiles that they already have and those stockpiles that they already have, and those stockpiles are quickly running out. Russia still produces ammunition for its Soviet-era tanks and has huge reserves. But here in Ukraine, tractor mechanics are keeping the old machines running

and scavenging from destroyed Russian tanks until help arrives. And it's not just tank rounds. NATO is now warning Ukraine is using so much ammunition of all types that Western allies cannot provide it fast enough with new orders taking up to two years to deliver. Richard Engel reporting from Ukraine there. Joining us now, NBC News chief international correspondent Keir Simmons on the Belarusian side of the country's border with Ukraine, where tensions are high this morning as Ukraine prepares for a new Russian offensive. Keir, what are you seeing there on the border? Well, Willie, we're right here on the Belarusian side, as you mentioned. The Ukrainian border is

just a little way that way. And I'll show you that in a moment. Effectively, we're on the Russian side, if you like, of the front line with Ukraine, albeit in Belarus. But, you know, remember that President Lukashenko ultimately probably owes his position to President Putin here in Belarus. This is a part of the world where Belarusian observers say around 600 Russian missiles have been fired from, where Russian troops have been training, where Russian equipment is based. And, of course, where that initial offensive back in February was launched from here in Belarus. Let me just show you what we're seeing. We're on the border there.

There in the distance, you can see this is the Belarusian border control using dogs. What they're trying to show us is, you know, that they are defending, protecting their border with Ukraine. Effectively, as you can imagine, the whole border is closed. Just take you back around this way, Willie, and just walk with me a little bit in this direction. The Ukrainian border is about less than half a mile down along this road in that direction. The Ukrainian border is about less than half a mile down along this road in that direction. So this is, it doesn't feel tense, but it is a tense border, of course, albeit we are along the western side. The Ukrainian city of Lviv is about 150 miles over there. So the action, if you like, is expected in the east. Russia is in that direction.

And of course, really, the big question right now, and Richard Engel has been reporting that a renewed Russian offensive is underway. The big question is whether when that offensive gets underway in earnest, that it happens from the east or whether again Belarus will be part of that. Now, one of the important things about being here, of course, is to try to see whether there is any sign of that. We haven't seen any sign of that. The Belarusians are showing us around. In another sense, they're not showing us very much. There are reports of Russian troops on Belarusian territory over towards the east. But it could be that some of that is about trying to persuade the Ukrainians that there will be an offensive from here to try and kind of dilute their forces, if you like, make it harder for them to mount a defense. So this is,

we're very close to Ukraine. I mean, it's literally just there. We're on the Belarusian side. And this is a fairly unique opportunity to see this. The Belarusians putting on a press tour of all of this. The question, again, is whether Belarus at some point will enter the conflict with the Russians, my judgment would be that actually that's going to be unlikely, that President Lukashenko will think that it will be too disruptive to his own position inside Belarus for him to do that. All that being said, he is supporting the Russians. So I think that seems unlikely at this stage. And certainly in terms of what we have seen here, it seems like that isn't something that's going to happen. Yeah, it seems like an incredibly provocative step to directly join the fighting on that side.

NBC's Keir Simmons giving us a good look at the border there. Keir, thanks so much for bringing it to us. We appreciate it. And Joe, as the anniversary of the Russian invasion comes up next week, the White House, we're told, is preparing some massive aid packages to Ukraine to keep the government running in Kiev on the one hand. And then, of course, much more military aid, which Richard Engel just showed us, is desperately needed. And not just from the United States, but Europe as well, jumping in to get the ammunition, at least for starters, into the hands of Ukrainian fighters. Right. A lot to talk about there, Caddy. But you've been talking

the sources on the Hill that tell you even if the Republicans were to do the politically just idiotic thing and cut off Zelensky and the freedom fighters in Ukraine, Biden's Biden's got got things lined up to keep them going for quite some time. Yeah. After Kevin McCarthy said before the Speaker fight that he was no longer, was no longer going to be a blank check for Ukraine, there was, of course, concerns, especially in Kyiv, but also here in Washington in the White House, that they would have to wrestle to get money out of the Hill and it wouldn't come as it has done over the course of the last year. But I've heard that they've primed the pump enough for a supply of weapons to Ukraine that would last through this year at least.

The sort of time frame that I'm hearing people here in Washington are looking at is by November of 2024, because they assume that whoever runs against Joe Biden will run as the anti-Ukraine war candidate, saying we can't carry on supporting Ukraine and that for the Ukrainians, if they can try to get as far as they are going to get by November of 2024, that's the realistic time frame. This year has been held out as a very important year, but nobody seems to think there's going to be in this stage of it, this spring, a major win, a decisive win either by the Russians or by the Ukrainians, and that we're looking at a long grind over the course of this year, which is why NATO is going to have to carry on having these meetings with a whip round, effectively an auction saying who can supply what.

So many people inside the White House and inside the Pentagon are saying just what you're saying. We're not close to a position where it's ripe yet for negotiations. There are many that are expecting a pretty aggressive Ukrainian offensive in the spring and the summer. That'll be fascinating to see how that goes. Right now, though, looking at The Washington Post, rushing to arm Ukraine, allies risk a supply logjam. I mean, the challenge of supplying the Ukrainians just continues to go up and it's a logistical challenge, basically. I mean, you've got to get all the right stuff that they need and then you've got to get it in there. Right. And in a timely fashion, not too much that they can't

absorb it. Yet you have to get enough so they so they have what they need to use. And it's coming from all different angles in all different countries. It's a challenge. But, you know, people I talk to are, as Katie said, looking at this as a long campaign, you know, and planning for being in this for the long haul, because that's what it's going to take. The only one caveat I've heard is that the real game changer would be if the Chinese suddenly change tactics. At the moment, the Chinese have been giving the Ukrainians kind of everything but military hardware support. If the Chinese were suddenly to say, OK,

here's the key to the Chinese stock cupboard, that would have the right. If the Chinese if the Chinese would say to the Russians, OK, we're actually going to start supplying you with arms yeah that would have a real difference and that does worry people I will I will say the Ukrainians are very fortunate I think so many of us who are on the side of Ukraine are very fortunate the president Xi has made one misstep after another misstep after another misstep over the past five years they're just not in an economic position to do that right now their economy's not they were growing at eight or nine percent like they were a few years ago. Maybe they would take that chance. Don't know that they can take that chance now. We'll see. Willie, you know, the longer this war goes, also not good news for Vladimir Putin,

who may be trying to stall until he mistakenly thinks Donald Trump's going to get reelected president of the United States. Longer this goes, the more we see those old Warsaw Pact country supplies running out and and and Western weapons getting into the hands of trained Ukrainian fighters. At that point, things go from bad to worse for Mr. Putin. Yeah, they're still using that Soviet era equipment on the side of Russia. And John, the president, President Biden will be in Poland next week. Do we have any sense what's going to be and what may not be in these massive packages that he's set to roll out? Zelensky has asked for F-16 jets, for example. Sounds like the United States and UK are going to decline to take that step. At least for now, jets aren't expected to be part of this package. Doesn't mean they can't

be down the road. And that's really the message the White House is sending is, look, we're able to funnel as much as you need right now. That could change eventually. Yes, they do think at a certain point there will be some Republican resistance. Eventually, the U.S. will not be able to fully fund Ukraine at the level they are now. Not that support would disappear entirely, but it would slow down. They think the same could happen from some European capitals as the war drags on and on. And there's no sense it's ending anytime soon. And Biden's appearance next week in Poland comes at an interesting moment where, on one hand, a year out, it is remarkable that Ukraine is still standing. It is remarkable

the resistance they have put up and have kept Russia largely at bay. The other side of the coin, though, is Russia still does control about 20 percent of the country. The fighting there is very slow and incremental right now. And there's no sense that Putin is going to stop. The major offensive U.S. analysts I speak to isn't going to essentially be something that resembled last February with suddenly a drive for Kiev, but rather just more Russian men, more Russian men, often into the meat grinder, just trying to make slow incremental progress, Joe, that it's just going to be this stagnant thing. And the hope is, though, is that Ukraine would be able to launch its own counteroffensive to try to repel that and maybe get some sweeping

gains. And at the end of this spring offensive, there's a sense that they both sides will look at where things stand. Maybe then we start having thoughts about a negotiated settlement. That's a long way off. And it'll depend where things stand at that time. But you talk about the meat grinder. I mean, you see the images from World War One. You see the movies, read the books about World War One, and you just wonder how their Russia is stumbling into this again. But it's exactly what they're doing. In the meantime, while this debate is going on, we did a story recently about the just wartime production of weapons going on in the United States for Ukraine. You know, it's like World

War Two. There are there are two factories we visited, one in Scranton, Pennsylvania, where they make shells for the Ukrainian military. And then they go to Iowa, where they're filled with explosives, and then they're shipped eventually to Ukraine. And there's this huge production going on, big employment for these two places. And it's old-fashioned weapons, artillery, and they're stepped up production in a big way over the next couple of years. So, wow, it's really interesting. And these are, again, big employment, big employment for these these places. That's fascinating. Coming up, more Republican governors and legislatures are pushing to keep their states away from investments, promoting what they deem to support the liberal agenda. They're losing so much money doing this. They're losing something. Oh, BlackRock is woke. No, BlackRock just wants to make money and they're stupid enough to divest

to make a political point. And then they lose millions and millions of dollars for the retirees. Our next guest says that owning the libs is proving to be wildly costly, not only for taxpayers, but for Republican candidates. We'll explain straight ahead on Morning Joe. It's a beautiful live picture of the White House at 652 on a Wednesday morning. Florida Governor Ron DeSantis announced a series of proposals to crack down on the use of what is known as environmental, social and governance criteria in deciding how to invest state and local funds. Commonly referred to ESG, it is the favoring of investment choices that emphasize social and environmental responsibility alongside profits. That practice recently has come

under fire for many Republicans who say it's just woke thinking dominating corporate boardrooms. Governor DeSantis called such investment policies elitist and discriminatory. What affects our national security when you have to go to foreign countries that are hostile to us to try to get energy, that is not a good place to be in. But what ESG wants to do is they want to put a premium against that type of business. It's also bad for our national security. When you're doing this stuff with ESG, you are increasing the costs that businesses have to comply with here in the United States. But what ESG says is, no, we're not going to do, even if it would do a better return, we're not going to allow you to invest in certain areas.

You're not allowed to invest in oil and gas. You're not allowed to invest in disfavored areas. So they're constricting the ability of people to invest your money. And obviously, that means you're going to not do as well as you otherwise could have. Sometimes people will try to say that you do better with this, but that doesn't make any sense. Financial Times notes at least 49 anti-ESG bills have been introduced across the country this year. Join us now, business and finance editor for Semaphore, Liz Hoffman, who her new reporting is titled The Backlash to the ESG Backlash is here. Liz, it's so great to have you with us. We really want to bore into this. But first, let's take the topic of ESG. And for an audience who may not know in shorthand, what is it exactly and what is it

not? It's one of those things where the perhaps like CRT, where the acronym has become something more than the sum of its parts. But I mean, it stands for Environmental, Social, and Governance Criteria for Investing. You might think of it as green investing or sustainable investing. The problem with ESG is that it means different things to different people. The E, people have a pretty easy time getting their arms around, regardless of how you feel. It's mostly about carbon emissions and pollution and things like that. The S is quite problematic, I think, because for a lot of people, it's sort of shorthand for taking care of employees. For some people, it has to do with sort of what we call the culture wars. You saw sort of the problems that Disney had kind of stepping in and out of that story last year.

And so it's just it has become a little bit of a boogeyman for everyone. And basically, nobody likes it has become a little bit of a boogeyman for everyone. And basically nobody likes it as it currently stands. So what is Governor DeSantis, for example? He's been the loudest critic. What is his specific objection in Florida, for example? His specific objection in Florida largely has to do with cultural issues. Right. If you remember back to last year, Disney was the CEO. Bob Chapek was under some pressure to take a position on the what was called the don't say gay bill. But, you know, the sort of educational measures in Florida, he decided not to. And then he decided to. And it turned into kind of a mess, frankly, for Disney.

But the upshot for for Ron DeSantis, as he said to, you know, Florida's most important corporate citizen. We don't want you. We don't want your money. And it became very politically advantageous, I think, in the moment for the governor, but a real problem for Disney. Now, Joe, here's the problem. The piece is titled Backlash to the Backlash. And here's what we're talking about. In Indiana, for example, the budget office found that a bill forcing state pensions to divest from these kind of funds would cost the state six point seven billion dollars over the next decade. Retirees would have to put more from their paychecks to make up the difference. Six point seven billion dollars in Indiana. I got to say, Liz, I read your article. I was just dying laughing and I was dying laughing because these idiots that are running around trying to own the libs are shooting themselves

in the foot. I mean, you look at what happened in Texas. They were they were going to do the same. But going after BlackRock and saying, oh, we're not going to invest in BlackRock because they're too woke. It's kind of like saying, you know, I don't like Tom Brady. I don't like I don't like the shoes and his politics may be a little quirky. I'm going to bet against him in Super Bowls. I mean, it's just, again, they're cutting off their nose to spite their faces. And what I thought was most fascinating about the article is

you have states, I think it was North Dakota, that woke up and said, whoa, hold on a second. Maybe we like money more than we like, like, quote, owning the libs. No, that's exactly right. I mean, this is basic supply and demand. And when you reduce the supply of something, you get a worse you get a worse product. Right. So think back to Texas in 2021 passed a law that said essentially it kicked a bunch of banks more or less out of the market for underwriting municipal bonds.

So when, you know, towns and cities and sewer authorities want to raise money, they need a bank to underwrite that debt. And a bunch of banks left. And the upshot was that the banks that were left charged them more. And there was a study out of the University of Pennsylvania that found that it cost Texans somewhere between $300 and $500 million. You know, maybe Governor Greg Abbott is okay with that. Maybe his voters are OK with that. But I've been a I'm a finance reporter. And so I come from a world where you have an obligation

to maximize profits for your investors. And these aren't just like regular investors, pensioners, they're they're taxpayers. These are people who drive buses and work in hospitals. And so I think there's a increasingly kind of a reckoning with that tension between political ambition and and your your duty to maximize profits for the people who've trusted you with their retirements. And Sam, it's funny, it's it's Republicans that are making these stupid business decisions. It's like Ron DeSantis doesn't like a tweet that Tampa, that the Tampa Bay's baseball team puts out the race put out. So he decides to take away a tax incentive from him. I mean, he goes after Mickey Mouse, which he's attacking all of these businesses for political purposes. At some point, people are going to say, well, maybe we'll just move to another state. And you look at Greg Abbott, guy can't keep power on in the winter in Texas, first of all, and

are in the summer when it gets really hot there. And now he's losing $500 million to own the libs. It's really stupid. There's no price tag you can put on owning the libs. I will say, you know, this to me is a great indication of sort of the closed off ecosystems that a lot of Republicans and some Democrats to live in. ESG, just not many people actually know what it is, except for the, you know, sort of anti woke components of the Republican Party and the extremely online components of the party. We know this because Politico, Politico, we had a reporter, Daniel Lippman, follow around Vivek Ramaswamy, who is one of the leading sort of intellectual authors

of this anti-ESG investment movement. He is running for president. It's not really totally relevant that he's running for president, but it did bring him out to Iowa, where he was talking to all these people in this recent trip that Daniel was on with him about how woke investment needs to be curtailed and to ESG stuff. And the predominant reaction from Iowa officials was, what is ESG? What are you talking about? And, you know, I think we, to bring this back to an earlier conversation about Ron DeSantis, you know, I do think one of his, one of the things that may be a shortcoming

for him is that he's just so online. He is, a lot of what he does is driven so much by the online conversation. He's just different in that he takes it and implements it into government policy. And that's what distinguishes Ryan Sanders. Maybe he should go online, though, and learn like how business works. I mean, why would BlackRock become more, you know, go into ESG? Because they believe that's the way they're going to make more money. That's more profitable. That's the future. That's where they need to be.

And it's going to be profitable in the long run for them. And the short run. If you go to the Middle East, where they pump most of the oil out of the ground, they will tell you they've got 20 years. Exactly. They're going to run out. They're investing in everything else because they're like, this is running out. We have 20 years.

We've got to diversify. This was the future like 40 years ago. It's not the future anymore. So they make these choices. It makes a lot of sense for them. But again, it's just the Republicans are so short sighted here because, as Sam said, doesn't make any good political sense because most people don't care about it. And secondly, these corporations, if they're deciding to be a little woke here or they're deciding to be a little woke there, they're not sitting there going, oh, we must do the right thing. They're sitting there going, how do we get 18 to 39 year olds more attracted to our brand?

This is where they are. This is what they want. And those are our customers of the president and especially the future. And that's where we need to be. Yeah. Elizabeth, I never I've never understood this like attacking corporations for being woke when these politicians should know they're they're just doing what they think is in their best interest. We have survey after survey that shows 18-year-olds to 29-year-olds are far more progressive,

even into the 30s, far more progressive than past generations. And so that's when people attach to brands. So that's why they're trying to be a little more woke here, a little more woke there. And also investing in green technology and investing in green technology. That's what you know, going back five, 10 years. Yes. And they these corporations didn't have to be forced into it. They saw the future and they're they're ahead of their way ahead of Congress on on the environment. You know, and that was a big surprise maybe 10 years ago when it started. It started on its own. And by the way, Jonathan Lemire, whoever controls, you know, whoever does the breakthrough on green technology,

we're hearing about green fusion now, they own the future. This is, it would be stupid to just say let's keep drilling for 20 years until it runs out. No corporation thinks that way. Right. Good for the planet. Also, highly profitable, most likely. So, Liz, let's talk about what are the next fronts on this particular battle, this anti-ESG moment, where DeSantis has clearly put himself at the pinnacle of this, other states clearly having second thoughts. Where do you see this going next?

Yeah, I would make one point first, which is most of the noise has been from the right on this. But there's an argument, an intellectual argument, at least we made, that liberals overinvest in things that are not profitable either. And so, you know, feel how you want about green energy and whether it's the future and we need it. But there's sort of moral tradeoffs we made across the spectrum between profits and principles. You know, I would say clearly conservatives are winning the war on this, right? This was not a thing that anyone was talking about a year, 18 months ago. Everyone is talking about it. I would expect it to be a key issue in 2024 race, though I also was struck by that Daniel Lipman story about Vivek Ramaswamy. You know,

I think he had meant the reporter had mentioned to someone, oh, he's in town to talk about ESG. And someone asked him, is he for it or against it? Like it is it is an issue that is very it's it's unformed enough that we'll see what happens, you know, what the political discourse does with it. But no, there is some some ground being regained, I think, by the Black Rocks of the world. I would also note that a lot of the political juice seems to me to already have been wrung out of this particular washcloth, which is to say Black Rock has been touting its investments in energy. And it is still a giant shareholder in all the big energy companies. It's also rolled out some new technology that

if you're an investor in one of its funds, it used to vote your shares on your behalf for you when big issues came up, like who should control the board of Chevron or should it get out of drilling and wherever it's drilling. They want to get out of that business because they don't like the political heat. So I think a lot of the political gains have kind of already been taken off the table. But look, the economy is fragile. The market is terrible. Like you're getting under a lot of pressure to hit returns. And if you're if you run a state investment board in North Dakota, like maybe you have strong views about this personally, but you have an obligation and your job depends on you beating the market.

And I don't think there's a lot of I don't think there's a lot of patience for this. Interesting. You mentioned North Dakota in your piece. You I don't think there's a lot of, I don't think there's a lot of patience for this. Interesting you mentioned North Dakota in your piece, you point out that vote there where they were going to have a blacklist for companies that invest in fossil fuels. They went down by a vote of 90 to three, presumably many Republicans voting against that idea. Yes, no, exactly.

And I spoke to the legislator who had opposed it. And I don't remember the quote off the top of my head, but he said, you can't stand on principle and freeze to death, which is to say, part of that was a little bit procedural. Like North Dakota is a very conservative place and they have a couple other bills that are similar to this. But they had proposed it in such a way that they didn't realize that it would choke off funding from its local banks, too, which is, you know, the financial system is complicated. And when you have it, you know, sort of hijacked by, you know, ideologues, it becomes tricky.

Very interesting to see where it goes from here. Business and finance editor for Semaphore, Liz Hoffman. Liz, thanks so much for your reporting. We appreciate it. Sam Stein, Elizabeth Buehler. Thank you both as well.