Morning Joe - Morning Joe 2/16/23

Episode Date: February 16, 2023

Nikki Haley announces 2024 White House bid

A self-loathing has swept our country. Joe and Kamala even say America's racist. This is not about identity politics. I don't believe in that. And I don't believe in glass ceilings either. Strong and proud, not weak and woke. That's the America I see. The only challenger so far to Donald Trump in the 2024 presidential race kicks off her campaign.

During that speech, Nikki Haley took a dig at her former boss and President Joe Biden. We'll play for you those comments. Also today, we'll get our first look at pieces of the grand jury report investigating the former president's attempts to overturn the 2020 election results in Georgia. Plus, Mike Pence wants all the credit for doing the right thing on January 6th, but doesn't want to talk about it under oath. We'll show you what he had to say about the subpoena from the special counsel. And President Biden expected to address the string of unidentified objects that were shot down over the northern United States area. And big news for 3050 today. We have a big announcement this morning. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Thursday, February 16th. Along with Joe, Willie and me, we have the host of way too early in White House, Bearchief at Politico,

Jonathan Lemire, historian and Rogers chair in the American presidency at Vanderbilt University. John Meacham joins us this morning and former chairman of the Republican National Committee and MSNBC political analyst. Michael Steele joins us as well. Joe, great group this morning. A lot of politics to get to. Well, we've got Meacham, But other than that, a great group. I don't think you said that with enough respect. I don't think I'm a little haughty. Yeah, I'm a little I'm a little discombobulated. He has got a Pulitzer Prize winner in her meds. I mean, come on. It's big. And a Vandy guy. Hey, Willie, I just and this is a problem I think Republicans are going to have as they run throughout this entire cycle going up to 24. Nikki Haley talked about, you know, she's proud. We're proud. And, you know, we should be proud of this country and strong of this country. I completely agree. It's it's unfortunately it's Donald Trump and Republicans that have blindly followed him through the years,

including Nikki Haley, who have been the first to talk about how horrible America is, talk about how terrible our military is, how they'd rather be have the Russian military than the American military that that support a president and have always supported a president that loves the Russians, a KGB leader, more than our intel community, said they trust the Russians more than they trust our own intel community. They're the ones who sit back quietly and pay homage to people who say that the United States military is bringing helicopters from Afghanistan to the United States to hunt down people who voted for Trump. They'd say our premier law enforcement agencies are the ones that kick down doors because they're going to drag people off to jail who voted for Donald Trump. They're the people that constantly drag down this country, constantly trash our institutions, constantly trash the men and women in uniform claiming that they're weak and that they're woke. And so, you know, I kind of think and we can talk to me about this, too.

But this is exactly what left wing radicals did in the 1960s. This is something that gave birth. And I know because I was there listening to my parents and other people. This gave birth to the conservative movement of the late 60s and the 70s. The America love it or leave it. If you hate this country so much, if you hate the United States Armed Services so much, if you hate our intel community so much, if you hate the United States Armed Services so much, if you hate our intel community so much, if you hate the men and women in the premier law enforcement agency, the FBI that protects us every day, if if you trash teachers, you hate our schools, you think somehow we can't even let our

kids read books about Roberto Clemente and Hank Aaron. You know, problems probably not with the other side. The problem's probably with you. And until somebody has the guts, until somebody is actually strong, until somebody actually is willing to take on those lies that Republicans have been feeding Americans time and again. And by the way, they've been losing. And the lie about American democracy being broken, the lie about elections being stolen, the lie that you can't trust American democracy anymore. You got to take on those lies. You got to tear those lies to the ground and you got to build up America. You got to build up America's armed

forces, say it's stronger than ever before. You got to build up America's intel communities. You got to thank them for all the great work they're doing. You got to build up the very things that, again, leftists tore down in the 1960s and 70s and that Vladimir Putin wants to tear down now. If you can't do that, you really you can't be president of the United States. Well, to separate yourselves from that list that you just provided, which I think covered almost everything, including the fact that Donald Trump is still calling the FBI the Gestapo because they exercised a search warrant to find classified documents at his beach club.

To separate yourself from all of that is to separate yourself from Donald Trump. And that's the fear all these candidates, including Nikki Haley, who worked for Donald Trump, criticized him later and said after January 6th, he led us down a path we should not have followed him. Those were her words to Politico. Well, how can she say that when she has followed him down so many of these paths? And that is the dilemma, John Meacham, it seems to me. For if you look at the people who are running, who may run Mike Pence, if you look at Mike Pompeo, if you go to all the way down the list, there are people who have gone along for the ride. And most of the time, with some exceptions, Mike Pence right at the end, gone along for the ride with Donald Trump.

So how now do you run against a guy? How now do you separate yourself with Donald Trump. So how now do you run against a guy? How now do you separate yourself from Donald Trump? Yeah, I mean, that's a question that John Meacham. I'm sorry, John. I was just going to go to you, John, really quickly. You got to do something that that Ronald Reagan always did. But these Republicans don't do. These Trump Republicans don't do. You got to talk about what's right about America. Look at our past sins. All right. But also talk about what's right about America, because these people have it backwards.

They don't want to talk about the problems we've had on race in the past. Right. But they want to trash our military today. They don't want to talk about Roberto Clemente's story or Jackie Robinson's story or Hank Aaron's story, but they want to trash law enforcement agencies today. They want to defund the FBI. They've got it backwards. Yeah, it's I mean, classically, fear is a great starter, but it is not in American politics a good finisher. And I think the most interesting thing that Governor Haley has said in the past couple of days that I read was she pointed out that the Republican Party has not won the popular vote for

the presidential election, I think, since 2004. If you broaden that a bit to use a biblical 40 years, that's for Willie, because I know he thinks in biblical terms. He does. There are only three people in American history who have, on the Republican ticket, who have won the popular vote. Ronald Reagan and the other two were named George Bush, 1988 and 2004. That tells you something about where the country, or at least 51 percent of the country actually is. And this campaigning to the narrowest possible number that can be relied on is maybe good for a primary, but it's fatal. And we almost saw it literally be fatal to the American experiment. We do ask people to actually transcend their appetites and ambitions when they get to the positions of power. It's the it's kind of a Edmund Burke thing, right? It's

sometimes a representative owes you a reflection of your will, and sometimes they owe you their best judgment. And presidents in particular owe us their best judgment. The last thing I'd say on this is anybody who runs for president, if I could grab them for a second, I would say the things we tend to remember about presidents. And as Bill Clinton will tell you, everybody gets a sentence and maybe not that right. Lincoln saved the union fdr won world war ii you know you think about what do you want your sentence to be what that sentence almost always is about is about transcending your own limitations and that you've imposed on yourself to get to power and so transcendence is the key to historical greatness. And that means telling people who sent you there that they might be wrong. And there's nothing, nothing, nothing in the Republican. We do want to get to the news now out of Ukraine, where Russia claims to have made gains in the country's Luhansk region.

Moscow says its forces broke through multiple Ukrainian defensive lines in the area, with the progress forcing Ukrainian troops to pull back by about two miles. Russia's claims have not been independently verified and Ukrainian officials have not commented. The United Kingdom's defense minister says they estimate that 97% of Russia's army is inside Ukraine. However, there are questions this morning

about Russia's military tactics and its ability to maintain sustained, large-scale ground assaults in the wake of a disastrous attempt to take a Ukrainian city. The New York Times reports the scale of Moscow's losses in the battle for Luludar is only now beginning to come into focus. According to the Times, accounts from Ukrainian and Western officials, Ukrainian soldiers captured Russian soldiers and Russian military bloggers, as well as video and satellite images, paint a picture of a faltering Russian campaign that continues to be plagued by battlefield dysfunction.

Britain's defense secretary cited reports on Wednesday that a whole Russian brigade was effectively annihilated in Vulidar, where he said that Moscow lost over 1,000 people in two days. The British Defense Intelligence Agency reported last week that Russian units had likely suffered particularly heavy casualties around Vulidar. And Jonathan Lemire, this, you know, battlefield information that we're getting, the many different sources point to a Russian army that is just getting kind of slaughtered in different areas in Ukraine. Yeah, catastrophic defeat after catastrophic defeat from the Russian military. The issue is it doesn't seem to be changing Vladimir Putin's thinking at all. That's according to U.S. versus I spoke in the last 24 hours or so, where they

just continue to throw men, most of them poorly trained, poorly equipped to the front lines, to the meat grinder, as it were, an effort to make incremental progress, trying to show some sort of victory here as we approach the one year mark. There's sort of a growing expectation that Putin was going to be addressing the Russian people at some point next week about the status of the conflict, that he wants some sort of point to some sort of even minor victory here. They've used the Wagner Wagner mercenary group to supplement their forces. They've also taken heavy losses. And there is an expectation here, Mika, that that this Russian offensive that we've all known is coming may have already begun. NATO Secretary General John Stoltenberg said that they believe this is the initial wave of that.

There's a belief they might try to conscript more men in the coming weeks. And then as the weather gets better, then launch the full-out assault. Willie. All right. We will keep an eye on that. Meanwhile, President Joe Biden is expected to speak possibly as soon as today about his administration's decision to shoot down four flying objects just in the last couple of weeks amid growing calls from lawmakers to hear from the president on the situation. Three sources familiar with the matter tell NBC News White House aides have been discussing privately whether or not Biden should address the American

people. Last weekend, the Pentagon shot down three unidentified flying objects in U.S. and Canadian airspace less than a week after bringing down a suspected Chinese spy balloon off the coast of South Carolina. In the speech, Biden is expected to discuss a plan of action for dealing with similar events in the future, Mika. And Joe sat down yesterday with National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan for an upcoming special to mark the one year anniversary of the war in Ukraine. And he asked him about those unidentified objects. Let's take a quick listen. Tell us about the unidentified objects flying over Montana, the rest of the rest of the continent.

Do Americans have any reason to be concerned? Well, just to set the context, following the downing of the Chinese spy balloon, NORAD, NORTHCOM, the military element that is charged with the defense of North America, tuned its radar in a way that began picking up more of these slow-moving objects, large, slow-moving objects that our radars had previously not picked up. And in fact, Chinese spy balloons had overflown our country without the knowledge of the previous administration because the radars weren't picking them up. What we can say is that our intelligence community has, at this point, a leading explanation

that they are looking at that, in fact, these objects are benign. We are also putting into place protocols now for how to manage the fact that there will be balloons from commercial and research and civilian entities flying in American airspace. So what are the protocols for actually taking them out of the sky? What are the protocols for managing the threat to civilian aircraft? And how do we really get a handle on what's up there? Because what this whole episode has shown us is there are a lot more things in the sky that are unidentified, are unclaimed, that need to be managed and dealt with. And we now have a process in place to do that. We're going to hear more of

Joe's conversation with National Security Advisor Sullivan one week from today as part of Morning Joe's primetime special marking the one year anniversary of the war in Ukraine. The special hour will also feature Joe's interviews with Secretary of State Blinken and more. That is next Thursday at 8 p.m. Eastern time. Look forward to that. And former South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley has formally announced her 2024 bid for president. She officially kicked off her candidacy at an event in Charleston yesterday, stressing the theme of a new generation to lead the country. Haley called for mandatory mental competency tests for politicians older than 75. An implied dig at President Joe Biden, who's 80, but might also include her one time boss, former President Donald Trump, who is 76.

America is not past our prime. It's just that our politicians are past theirs. Our best days are yet to come if we unite and fight to save our country. When I look to the future, I see America strong once more. In the America I see, the permanent politician will finally retire. And mandatory mental competency tests for politicians over 75 years old. So, Joe, she said a lot of things that Republicans want to hear. A lot of it was very Trumpy. Also, the mental competency test. I mean, that we could use that in the last administration age age aside. Well, yeah, I mean, you have you had a lot of Donald Trump's own cabinet members talking about the 25th Amendment and debating on whether they were going to have to implement it. It wasn't a joke. No, no, no. It wasn't a joke. It was it was deadly serious.

Of course, she would never bring that up in her speech. So, you know, Michael Steele, it was you know, it was a it was a it was a good enough launch in 2008 or 2012. But here we are in the middle of the age of Trump. And, you know, The New York Times has a story about Republican candidates afraid to mention Donald Trump's name. He's like Lord Baltimore. I mean, the name that shall not be mentioned and they will not make you have to mention Baltimore's name. You have to go after Baltimore. Yeah. If if you want to defeat him and they have to do the same thing with Donald Trump, they're just not they're just not going to do it. So when they give this speech, as if it's 2008 or 2012,

you know, everybody in the room is just sitting there waiting for this, you know, the elephant, the 800 pound elephant in the room. And that will always be Donald Trump until somebody takes him on and beats him. Well, Joe, you and I have been on the same page on that point for a long time now, leading up to this election, that all of this, you know, fight and fury and, you know, I can take on a bully in heels and all this other stuff, it's just silly until you actually do it, because that's the test. I mean, no one's interested in your three-point plan. No one's interested in your haranguing about the state of the country until we know

you're actually prepared to and have the ability to take down Trump. If you can't mention the man's name, you can't take him down. And it sounds good that you can beat up a bully until the bully's right in front of you. Then what do you do? I mean, what do you think is going to happen when Donald Trump, you know, alights a stage and rips you a new one? What's your response going to be? Are you going to ignore it? No, you're going to have to engage if you want to be president. And so I put it this way. None of these individuals on any list or any board that we put up with a picture is going to make it through this gauntlet unless they're prepared to lose their primary, meaning

they're willing to put everything in it to become president. And everything requires that they take on Trump directly. And none of these people, not one, zero, are going to do it. They're just not. A lot of bluster, a lot of noise, a lot of hot air signifying nothing, a lot of crazy plans like we're going to somehow give mental acuity tests to 75-year-old politicians. Who's going to do that? Are you calling for the government now to insert itself in this process in a way that's going to take some politician into a closet and see if he's smart enough to continue in the job? I mean, this is the kind of silliness that we're going to be seeing coming out of these candidates as deflections because they don't want to deal with the thing in front of them. And that's Ron DeSantis. That's Nikki

Haley. That's Tim Scott. That's all of them. And until they do, America is going to sit back and yawn at their campaign. So, Jonathan Lemire, we got a case in that very point last night. Nikki Haley was on with Sean Hannity and Sean asked several times, where do you differ from Donald Trump on policy? Where do you differ? Give me a couple areas you differ. She wouldn't answer the question. He said, I'm going to try one more time. He asked her and she said, look, Sean, I don't kick sideways. I'm kicking forward or something like that. She said, I'm I'm running against Joe Biden. Well, actually, that's not true.

First, you're running against Donald Trump before you get to Joe Biden. Even on the day of her campaign launch, there still are no good answers to that question. And she's obviously had months and months to prepare for that very question, because, of course, yeah, you might get to face Joe Biden eventually, but you got to get through. He's the final boss. You got plenty of people to get through first and Trump most of all. And it is going to be for all of these Republicans, this delicate dance of where you need to try to differentiate yourself with from Trump without drawing the wrath of the former president himself or his supporters, who, of course, you need. You need to at least siphon off some of them in order to be

a viable candidate for the Republican nominee. If there is a mental acuity test, John Meacham, I hope, let's remember, Donald Trump claims he's already passed one. Those five words, remember those five words? Person, woman, man, camera, TV. So Trump's got that. Trump's got that down. We'll see if anyone else can do it. But let's weigh in, if you will, about this dilemma. Does it remind you of one we've seen before where there's such an overwhelming favorite in a political party in the from a historical perspective where others need to be able to knock him or her down, but also somehow try to win him or her supporters? Sure. I mean, it's it's any time you're running against a former person, you end up in particular when you serve. Right. Right. You you have to thread a needle. But, you know, all of this is an analog conversation. Right.

This is like talking about Atari. It's this is a pre-Trump conversation about American politics. Another story we're talking about is the story of insurrection and whether the vice president United States who stood between us and the abyss is going to testify about that. It's not, as Eleanor Roosevelt said in 1940, it's not an ordinary time. And so I think that if the Republican Party and I'm not a Republican, I'm not a Democrat, but insofar as as a historical matter, we need two functioning parties that have an allegiance to the Constitution. That's the central question for anyone who wants to be president on the Republican side is, are you going to try to treat the unconstitutional nature of Trumpism as a problem that must be eradicated? Or are you just going to kind of tiptoe around it? Right.

It's a bottom line. And if you hope, and there are a lot of establishment Republicans, and I'm sure Joe talks to them all the time, who I think had this vision that somehow, remember the old musical Brigadoon that was the city that only came down once every hundred years or so? It's a generational illusion, John, that we'll talk about later. They had this vision that there's this post-Trump world that's just going to come one day. And they're now normal people. You know, they're AEI Republicans running. And so they're like, OK, you know, we have some people now who have been to a heritage seminar, so it's going to be OK. I don't know if it's going to be OK. Right. Because it just takes 30, 35 percent. And the polls have been consistently wrong now for years for various technical reasons.

I don't think we're through this. And it's an American question, not a partisan one. And whether it's the governor of former governor of South Carolina or the former secretary of state, whoever it is, I think the person who's going to break through here has to break through for the country, which might kill you in the party. Right. You need a Mitt Romney. Yeah. As opposed to one of these sort of sub Trump's. And you wouldn't get that. But if we want the cause, if we want this experiment to keep going, we need that. It's it's funny. Go ahead. Go ahead, Mika. Well, it's just funny because Nikki Haley talked in her speech about Trump. Well, about losing again and again and again. But she didn't say it was Trump, but it was Trump. So she understands that it's not working.

She can vocalize that. She just won't vocalize who's the reason for it. Yeah, exactly. And by the way, Willie, do you have your score sheet out? If you have your meet some John meet some score sheet out. We can we can we can we can mark this down under Brigadoon. That is the second reference to Brigadoon in the past few weeks here in Morning Joe. I'll be expecting my Morning Joe friends and family, an upcoming musical starring Bernadette

Peters and John Meacham, Brigadoon, coming your way very soon. So it's just, I don't know. It's just not that hard. I don't think it's that hard to, well, to do Brigadoon, I'm sure, is very hard. But I'm just not so sure, Michael, still, it's that hard to do this. Like, everybody's acting like, oh, it's going to be so difficult. No, you've got to be strong. You've got to be strong. You've got to go after. We say, listen, thank you, Trump. Thank you for 2016. We're going to get you gold watch. We're greatly appreciative. But I got a problem.

And this is this may be a character default on my part. I just I hate losing. I hate losing so much. It just, it just drives me crazy. I like to win. I like to win like Republicans used to like to win. I hate losing in 2017. I hate losing in 2018. I hate losing in 2019. I hate losing in 2020.

I hate losing in 2021. I hate losing in 2022. And I sure as hell don't want to lose in 2024. We're going to lose not only elections, but if we keep losing the elections, we're going to lose the country. So we're going to have to close the door on the past. give our national our national championship coach who won a national championship for us in 2016 a gold watch and send him on his way and give him a tip of the hat. But we have to look to the future. And yeah, he's done a lot of things that have hurt us, including denying who won the last election. He's so obsessed with the last election that we're going to lose the next election.

Like somebody has to do that. They can't like kind of talk in the shadows. And you know what Nikki Haley did on Sean Hannity's show? Yeah, what Nikki Haley did on Sean? How do I differ? Sean, I'll tell you how I differ. I win elections. That's how I differ.

I win elections. And I don't look at past elections that I've lost because they don't lose elections. That's the way I differ. If Republicans want to win again, if they want to get back into the White House again, vote for me. If they don't, they can vote for the other guy. I don't care if they want to keep losing. I can't help them. It's just like, it's not hard. It's just not that hard. It isn't. And actually, it's not just about the winning for someone like Nikki Haley. Nikki Haley has a very powerful other story. She was a governor in a Southern state, in a red state, a Confederate state, and she took on the Confederacy and won. She took on the Constitution, the anti-constitutional behavior, and won. So she can make a very different case from any of the other candidates in how you stand on principle, how you reaffirm constitutional principles post the attributes of a party under Trump, where it's embraced white nationalism, where it thinks that they're fine Nazis and fine Ku Klux Klan members. You can't do that if you're not willing to go there. And you're absolutely right.

You tie that into the winning because that's how we win again. We win because America is behind us and America is behind us because we're not standing on anti-democratic, anti-Madisonian, anti-constitutional principles. And it's you're right, Joe, it is not hard, but it requires something they don't have. Leadership. Yeah. And we haven't seen leadership in the Republican Party since since Donald Trump wiped the floor with 15 Republican senators, governors and politicians in 2016. So we're going to talk about this a lot more ahead on Morning Joe. We've got a lot of other news to get to as well. Still ahead on Morning Joe, Mike Pence confirms his unusual legal strategy for fighting a DOJ subpoena.

We'll explain why the former VP says he's immune from testifying about the attack on the Capitol where his life was threatened. Plus, we're expecting the partial release of a Georgia grand jury report investigating potential interference in the 2020 election. What it could reveal about possible criminal charges for Donald Trump and his allies. Also ahead, Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin joins us with his new plan to keep kids safe online. And we have a major announcement from Know Your Value and Forbes about the latest guests to be announced for the 3050 Summit, which is now just weeks away. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. Oh, I can say where it is, but I know I'm going home. That's where it is.

And I know it is. Fulton County grand jury report that investigated if then President Donald Trump interfered in the 2020 election are expected to be made public today. Only the introduction, conclusion and a section where jurors said they were worried some witnesses lied under oath will be released. The majority of the report will remain private until the Fulton County District Attorney concludes her probe. Trump and his associates are being investigated for their actions after Georgia flipped blue for Joe Biden in 2020. There were several attempts to recapture the swing state, including the infamous phone call between Trump and Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperg, where Trump asked to, quote, find the necessary votes for Trump to win.

So, look, all I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more that we have, because we won the state. Meanwhile, former Vice President Pence says he plans to fight a subpoena from the special counsel investigating former President Donald Trump's actions surrounding the January 6th Capitol attack, calling the demand for his cooperation unprecedented and unconstitutional. Pence addressed reporters after speaking at an event in Minnesota yesterday, maintaining he is immune from testifying because of legal protections for lawmakers. He says he was acting as president of the Senate during the January 6

electoral college vote count rather than as a member of the executive branch and therefore has legislative immunity. My fight is on the separation of powers. My fight against the DOJ subpoena, very simply, is on defending the prerogatives that I had as president of the Senate to preside over the joint session of Congress on January 6th. For me, this is a moment where you have to decide where you stand. And I stand on the Constitution of the United States. Pence also noted his argument for legislative immunity was the same one the Justice Department used in 2021 in its defense of a lawsuit claiming the 2020 election was illegitimate. The Justice Department succeeded

in getting that lawsuit dismissed, but the judge did not cite the government's position on legislative immunity in tossing out that case. Pence was subpoenaed by Special Counsel Jack Smith, the source familiar with the matter said last week. immunity in tossing out that case. Pence was subpoenaed by special counsel Jack Smith, the source familiar with the matter, said last week. So John Meacham, obviously, this is a man in Mike Pence who's planning to run for president. He was in Minnesota and Iowa yesterday. One of the attack lines, not just for Pence, but for every Republican running right now, is the weaponization of the Justice Department, the weaponization of the FBI, all these things we've heard from Donald Trump and his acolytes. But is he on good ground here with his argument saying,

I will take this to the Supreme Court if I have to? Yeah. As a profile in Courage, Vice President Pence is snatching defeat from the jaws of victory here. This is an I'll tell you what's unprecedented and unconstitutional is what the president United States was trying to force the vice president United States, who's the president of the Senate, to do. And Mike Pence stood between us and the abyss. And it is a remarkable thing, because if he had caved to what the president wanted to do, we would have had chaos. It could have pushed past deadlines. It could have gone to the House, any number of things. And so he did a important and good thing. And so this just feels to me, as you're saying, like a little bit of stagecraft for the base. The constitutional argument doesn't strike me as particularly

compelling because he was he is an executive office, executive branch officer. And so I if I were him, just tell the truth. You know, when in doubt, the truth sometimes works. It's the same dilemma. Go ahead, Joe. No. I'm just going to say they just can't. Jonathan Lemire, they they they just can't ever play it straight. I mean, I mean, here's a guy who, again, did some things very right on January the 6th. And now he's claiming privilege that he can't tell the truth about an insurrection that led him and Secret Service around him thinking that they may be killed on that day. Secret Service protecting him, hold up while the mob was outside the room, just feet away, calling home like it was 9-11 because they didn't expect to survive the day. And Mike Pence says that he was fleeing down there in his position as president of the Senate. It's a preposterous argument and an argument that that that the Supreme Court will throw out.

But, you know, Jonathan, this is just like politicians that stood up and were strong on January the 6th who are now saying, yeah, I'll vote for Donald Trump if he's a Republican nominee. I've said before that he disgraced America and that he was a danger to the republic. But yeah, I'll vote for him if he's a Republican nominee. It's just you're just like at some point you're going to have to choose a side. You're going to have to either support American democracy or support a guy who has said that the Constitution needs to be overturned. What was the exact word he said? The Constitution needs to be, what did he say?

Suspended, I think. Suspended. Oh, my God. Terminated. I think it was terminated. Maybe even Terminated. I think it was terminated, maybe even terminated. Now, let me just ask you, if you're Mike Pence or your other members of of the Republican Party, or if you're just somebody out there watching right now that says, well, I don't like Donald Trump, but I sure don't like that Joe Biden guy. He's crazy. Yeah, I'd vote for Donald Trump.

How do you ever vote for a man who tried to overturn American democracy and who said that he wanted to, quote, terminate the Constitution of the United States? Just like I said before, this is not really that hard. And these people are just sullying their reputations for life for not standing up for what is obvious, the defense of the Constitution, the defense of American democracy, the defense, well, of all the things that they claimed to be supporting when they held up their hand and took an oath to the Constitution of the United States. Yeah. As the saying goes, it's a time for choosing, but they won't. They're not going to choose. It was Mitch McConnell just this week again, and we know he's been a fierce critic of Donald Trump since the insurrection.

But he made clear this week that if Trump were to be the Republican nominee, he would support him again. The situation with Pence, very reminiscent of what we were talking about just a few minutes ago about Nikki Haley, where trying to distance himself from Trump somewhat, but not alienate or anger Trump or his supporters won't go all the way there. And Mika, we should know this is the second time that Pence has tried to be very cute when it comes to investigations. Let me make it clear, it's not cute. The January 6th investigation as well, he would not cooperate. He didn't want to testify, but he sent his aides to do so. And that's happening here, too, where he doesn't want to have to use his own words,

his own voice to condemn what Trump did. His own reality, his own experience, his own truth. Stood up to him that day, but nonsense. Really lame, among other things. Let's bring in political investigations reporter for The Guardian, Hugo Lowell. So, Hugo, OK, he won't he'll fight the subpoena. How does this impact the investigation? You know, principally, it's going to be a delay tactic.

You know, this is straight out of the Trump playbook and it is performative. Right. Because if you really wanted to testify, he would go in voluntarily and he would testify. And so, I think from the Justice Department's perspective, they are baking in extended litigation into their investigation, because that's really where this is going to end up. At the end of the day, I don't think this argument is going to work, and I don't think the Justice Department is looking at this argument as something that is going to severely hamper their inquiry. And that's principally because, you know, what Pence is claiming is, what he's trying

to suggest is he has total immunity from the subpoena, and that's not the case. You know, how this is likely to play out is they will go before Judge Beryl Howell, who's the chief judge for the District of Columbia, and they will go, you know, OK, so I can't answer some questions because of the speech and debate clause, but I possibly can answer others. And the Justice Department will come back and say, no, you can answer all of it, because the speech and debate clause is really intended for legislative purpose. January 6th, while it was a joint session of Congress, was basically a ceremonial process. It wasn't passing a law. It wasn't a debate on the House floor. It was really a ministerial job that Pence had.

And that's why, if you have a very narrow reading of what the joint session was, the speech and debate, the kind of privilege protection that he's trying to claim probably doesn't apply. And that's how we anticipate the Justice Department to get around this. OK. I mean, to me, it's just it's fine. A subpoena. He doesn't want to answer questions. But I want to hear from this man about his feelings about what Trump did as as in the lead up to January 6th. I want to hear how he feels about Trump as president and whether or not this man is a threat to our democracy. I need to hear this from the former vice president. Don't you? Don't we deserve to know

exactly how he feels about this? Michael Steele, wouldn't it make sense that the vice president, perhaps the former vice president under President Trump Trump should tell us how he feels about what happened during Trump's presidency. I couldn't agree more. I don't I don't get the complication here because it's not complicated. I think, you know, Hugo's reporting and certainly what we've been saying here this morning about this matter. It's very clear to all of us. You were there. I mean, this is like any other thing that would have happened on the Capitol. And the investigators would want the principals who were involved in that thing to come tell us what you know, what you saw, what you heard, what were your conversations.

What's so complicated about that? You're not being asked to reveal national security secrets here in a public forum. You're asked to tell us exactly what occurred that day. You heard people calling for you to be hanged. What did you think about that? You refused to get into your own car because you were suspicious of the Secret Service agent who supports Trump, who was tasked to drive the car. I mean, can you tell us about that? What was the reference points for that? Why did you feel that way? What suspicions did you have? Why is that so hard? Your president, your partner

tried to overthrow the government. He tried to instigate you to overthrow the government. You refused. Could you tell us about that? Thank you. When that sentence was complicated. And so this is where the credibility of these candidates, these wannabes like Pence, who want to now come blow past this, Joe, and say, oh, it's all, you know, that was then. And we dealt with that. No, we have not dealt with that because you have not told us your side of the story. You were there. We saw you in the garage on the phone. What were those conversations? Why can't America know that? And so they're all going to have credibility problems here. You're not going to get to blow by January 6th. You're just not. The country won't

let you. You're not going to be able to do it. And and and Hugo, of course, the judge doesn't really care what we want to hear. Or if Mika wants to hear what he was thinking about, you know, hanging Mike Pence. But the judge likely will he not think it's very relevant if they're trying to get to the bottom of the January 6th conspiracy, possible conspiracy to commit sedition by the president of the United States, former president of the United States. Mike Pence is at the center of that story. Donald Trump's efforts to get him to throw out the electors, to do something that, you know, when he called Dan Quayle, Dan Quayle said, you just don't have that power, Mike. You don't have that power. But but at the heart of this conspiracy, there sits Donald Trump's efforts, alleged conspiracy to get Mike Pence to play the key role in the conspiracy. So I'm just curious, how would any judge not compel him to testify?

You know, John, John was completely right when he said, you know, the insurrection and the capital attack itself was unprecedented. And that's actually a really strong argument that the Justice Department has in front of Judge Howell. And that's because the Justice Department basically has to show they cannot get the testimony that Mike Pence would otherwise provide from any other source. And that is certainly true in this instance, because in a lot of these conversations leading up to January 6th, whether it was, you know, objecting to the certification on January 6th,

or whether it was, you know, Trump trying to overturn the election through fake electors or other ways, or with John Eastman, you know, Pence was the only guy on a lot of—on the other end of a lot of these conversations. And so he is really the only person who can speak to those conversations. And if he is doing so under oath, you know, the Justice Department and the special counsel's office would get the clearest account of what went down. And crucially, to what Trump's intent was and what Trump really wanted Pence to do was to throw out the election, to send it to the House or send it back to the states. And I think that is really

crucial. So in many respects, I think maybe the judge does want to know what Mike Pence was thinking and what Mike Pence took away from these conversations. Certainly. And for people, for anyone who cares about what happened on January 6th, there are people who are serving time, who are in jail right now because of what they did at the Capitol on January 6th. There are people charged with seditious conspiracy, and the vice president doesn't want to talk about it? He has no feelings about this? Come on. Real quick, Meacham, and then we have to go. It was a coup. It was a coup. They defecated on the Capitol. I mean, I know. I know this isn't the most profound thing I've said this morning because I haven't mentioned my fair lady in this. Oh, yeah. I got it. It was a coup. And so there's nothing to say.

And so therefore, what happened? It's important for everything. This isn't this isn't that complicated. No, it's not. I mean, it was it was a coup attempt. And again, Donald Trump planned to use Mike Pence as as the pen that he was going to pull out in the hand grenade to set all of this in motion, to start the coup in motion. And there was there was screaming, there was yelling, there was name calling. He did everything he could do to try to intimidate him into basically, again, pulling the pin out of the hand grenade. And so I guess that's about the only thing left to say other than Willie also be looking forward in the coming weeks to carousel references. And John Meacham being off Broadway next year in a full sort of a just a recasting of everything we've ever thought about the musical carousel. Highly anticipated revival. And John, I noticed you slipped in George Bernard Shaw there with My Fair Lady. You are touching them all today, my friend. I'm killing it this morning.

Please don't let him. I'm on fire. We're stopping. Political investigations reporter for The Guardian, Hugo Lowell, thank you very, very much for coming on this morning and coming up. The latest culture war for Ron DeSantis is an AP African-American studies course with the Florida governor threatening to ban the dual credit program for all students. Reverend Al Sharpton led a rally against all of this yesterday down in Tallahassee.

He joins us just ahead on Morning Joe. Look what John Meacham has done. Look what John Meacham has done to our show. It's a little bit like, you know, Meacham really doesn't usually do revivals for any plays past 1964. But I don't know about Phantom of the Opera. But welcome back to Morning Joe. John Meacham. Yes, sir.

We look forward to your future performances in Brigadelle, Carousel. Any others? I do a lot of karaoke in assisted living facilities when I'm out talking about Lincoln. And so, yeah, let's get ready. Okay. All of those. That's fantastic. I love it.

Well, we look forward to that. Anytime. May we move on. Thank you. We may. I'm going to just reset everything. Welcome back to Morning Joe. It is a few minutes before the top of the hour. Reverend Al Sharpton was in Tallahassee yesterday where he was joined by black leaders and civil rights activists to protest Governor Ron DeSantis's opposition to a new college board advanced placement course in African-American studies. After 57 years of Jim Crow, it was education, Brown versus the Board of Education,

that kicked off in 1954, that inspired Rosa Parks to sit down a year later in 1955. If you would study history, Governor, you would have known to mess with us in education always ends to your defeat. You talk about Florida is where woke dies. We went from woke to work. And we're going to work on you DeSantis until we tell the whole story. Sharpton led a rally with several hundred people, including black lawmakers and clergy from a local church to the Capitol to protest the DeSantis administration's objections to the course, as well as recent moves such as expanding a state program to transport migrants from the southern border to other states. DeSantis has shown no signs of backing away from the college board controversy and now wants to explore ways

for Florida to avoid doing business with the nonprofit altogether. And Reverend Sharpton joins us now. I want to talk to you as well as about the sentencing of the Buffalo shooter and those incredibly emotional moments in the courtroom. But we're talking about two Americas, whether it's in Buffalo or Florida. What did you learn from the rally? Well, what I learned is that people are genuinely incensed by what the governor is doing, because for the governor and the college board to decide to say what part of black history is comfortable to Floridians, basically white Floridians, is as offensive as you can get. And they're not limiting just to black studies, but LGBTQ rights as well as women. And we're talking about and you have me meet you here.

You were talking about a period where we have a history of this, where you must remember one of the most effective ways of dehumanizing blacks in slavery was it was against the law for us to read and write. And then it was against the law for whites to teach us. So education was always something we always saw as our key to coming out of being enslaved because our ability to read and write. Now you're going to limit what we can read and write in AP classes? Like, people won't be able to handle watching movements like the civil rights movement, like the Black Lives Matter movement, like LGBTQ rights. And it is not to condemn the country. It's to show how the country evolved.

We need to know we went from slavery to electing Barack Obama. And to try and eliminate that, I think, is un-American as much as it is racist. So, Reverend Sharpton, I'll leave the importance of the history to John Meacham. But the politics of it, two parts. First, did you have any engagement from Governor DeSantis' office yesterday in the wake of this event? And then how concerned are you that other states might follow his lead? No, we had no engagement. And there was a couple of thousand people there. Every elected official just about in the black caucus and Latinos in the state legislature there

and every major pastor from all over Florida. No engagement. Wasn't looking for it because I think he's playing petty politics. As the social philosopher Joe Scarborough says, he's a day trader. He's looking at now. He's not looking at history. He wants to be baby Trump. He's going to use race like Trump did. Don't forget the entry of Donald Trump into presidential politics was breatharism.

And he's baby Trump. I'm going to use this against blacks. I'm going to use this against migrants. That might be better than meatball. Yeah. Baby Trump fits him. He's a miniature Trump trying to be like daddy and daddy spanks him. And they have a little inside fight and a family fight. But they're the same thing. And I think that the fear, though, is what you raised. If he can get away with this and cement this in Florida, it will be used in other states because he's basically trying to do a states' rights movement. We'll decide in this state who gets an abortion. We decide in this state how education goes. And the whole civil rights movement was against states' rights.

We needed federal protection against states segregating us. John Meechum. The remarkable one of the remarkable things I think about when this debate comes up is John Lewis is born in a segregated Alabama in 1940. Cannot vote until 1966, 1968. Parents can't vote. He is buried from Lincoln's catafalque in the capital of the United States. He goes from not seeing a white person except for the mailman until he's 14 years old to being honored as a statesman of the Republic. That story itself is the country. It's not that the struggle's over. But if you can't engage the complexity of history, then we can't become a more perfect union. Because if we don't know

what these forces are, and they are perennial, this is about taming these forces. It's about managing and marshalling them. That's right. Because we're sinful and fallen and frail. And the American story is really just enough of us did

just enough of the right thing at the right moment to push us forward. And that's a hugely important story. And is it political? Absolutely. But politics is about people. And if we don't create a habit of heart and mind where we engage this, then the experiment

is in terrible shape. Terrible danger.