Morning Joe - Morning Joe 2/17/25

Episode Date: February 17, 2025

Zelenskyy tells aides to reject U.S. pitch for 50% of Ukraine’s rare earth minerals ...

Transcript
Discussion (0)
Starting point is 00:00:00 Can Ukraine survive without US military support? Probably it will be very, very difficult. Of course, in all the difficult situations, you have a chance, but we will have low chance, low chance to survive without support of the United States. That was Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky telling NBC's Kristen Welker that Ukraine's survival hinges on U.S. military support. We'll go over the latest in Ukraine's fight against Russia and where peace negotiations now stand.
Starting point is 00:00:41 Plus, President Donald Trump is now alluding that the law does not apply to him. We'll dig into the criticism he's now facing over his cryptic social media post over the weekend invoking Napoleon and what this means as he tests his limits of presidential power. And also ahead, it was a big night for Saturday Night Live as the iconic show celebrated 50 years with comedy, music, and special guest appearances. And in a moment, we'll have someone who was featured in last night's show joining us. You won't want to miss that. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Monday, February 17th. I'm Jonathan Lemire. I'm alongside US special correspondent for BBC News and host of The Rest is Politics podcast,
Starting point is 00:01:30 Cady K. We're in for Joe, Mika and Willie on this President's Day. Always good to start with Napoleon, right? Yeah. On President's Day, I mean, particularly, I feel. Yeah, he that's- The timing was impeccable. Yeah, he was not a US president.
Starting point is 00:01:42 But- I'm sure he would have liked to have been if he'd had a chance and then stayed for a very long time. Yeah, we have a lengthy segment later on, Franklin Pierce. You won't want to miss that. But we have a very, very busy show this morning. We're grateful to have with us MSNBC political analyst Elise Jordan.
Starting point is 00:01:56 She is a former aide to the George W. Bush White House and State Department. Also with us, the host of Way Too Early, Ali Vitale, columnist and associate editor for the Washington Post, David Ignatius, and Rogers Chair in the American Presidency at Vanderbilt University, historian John Meacham. He is contractually obligated to be with us on each and every Presidents Day. We will go to him later for thoughts on Pierce. President Bonaparte. Yeah, President Bonaparte. I know you're from over across the Atlantic,
Starting point is 00:02:25 but we'll have to straighten a few things out. But yes, for talk, Pierson, Coolidge, and the rest with Professor Meechum in a little bit. But right now, we do begin overseas this morning, where several top Trump administration officials are preparing to meet with Russian leaders in Saudi Arabia to begin talks about ending the war in Ukraine. But Ukrainian President Zelensky insists that his country will never accept a peace deal
Starting point is 00:02:50 struck by the U.S. and Russia if Ukraine does not have a seat at the negotiating table. Zelensky made the comments to NBC's Kristen Welker during an exclusive interview on Meet the Press that aired yesterday. during an exclusive interview on Meet the Press that aired yesterday. Can you accept any peace deal that is cut without Ukraine? No. I'm sure that we have to be there. Otherwise, it's not acceptable. But if there is a decision without us and Putin will go out from all our land, we will
Starting point is 00:03:23 be in NATO and Putin will be in the prison so President Trump can do it without us. Secretary of State Marco Rubio arrived in Saudi Arabia a short time ago, a little earlier today to initiate negotiations toward peace. Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov also heading to Saudi Arabia. But President Zelensky indicated that Ukraine had not been invited. Zelensky spoke to NBC News amid a high stakes security gathering in Munich, Germany over the weekend.
Starting point is 00:03:56 While there, he did meet with U.S. Vice President J.D. Vance. You had a message to Vice President Vance about the potential implications of pulling out of NATO. What was your message to the Vice President? That will be destroying of NATO. President Zelensky also shared details about what he said to President Trump during a phone call between the two last week. Is it true that you told President Trump during that phone call that Putin is only pretending to want peace because he is afraid of Mr. Trump?
Starting point is 00:04:35 Yes. Yes, I said that he's a liar. And he said, I think that my feeling he said that he's ready for peace negotiations. And I said to him, no, he's a liar. He doesn't want any peace. But I think he's really a little bit scared about the president Trump. And I think the president has this chance and he's strong. And I think that really he can, he can push Putin to peace negotiations. Yes, I think so. I think so he can, but don't trust him.
Starting point is 00:05:14 Don't trust Putin. While at the Munich Security Conference, Volensky said that he has intelligence that Russian President Vladimir Putin is amassing more troops on the Belarus border to potentially invade other NATO countries. Additionally, Zelensky called for the creation of a European army to deter Russia. Let's be honest. Now we can't rule out the possibility that America might say no to Europe on issues that threaten it. We must build the armed forces of Europe so that Europe's future depends only on Europeans.
Starting point is 00:05:56 We've also learned that Zelensky has instructed his aides not to sign off on a proposal that would give the U.S. access to Ukraine's rare minerals. Last week, U.S. Treasury Secretary Scott Besson proposed a deal that would have granted the U.S. 50% ownership of Ukraine's rare minerals as a form of repayment for the support Washington has already provided Kyiv. But Zelensky says that agreement does not include adequate future security guarantees for Ukraine. And, Cady, a lot of thought here that Zelensky and Ukraine simply doesn't have a seat at
Starting point is 00:06:31 the table necessarily with these negotiations. Conflict reports whether Ukrainian officials will be in Riyadh at all. They're not clear about that. For the talks that are set to potentially begin tomorrow between U.S. officials and Russian officials that also seem to be paving the way for a Trump-Putin summit sooner than later. It looks like the Europeans are going to try and get the least of Ukrainians to a European summit where they're going to be talking because a lot is going on in Europe at the moment, particularly with the relationship with the United States.
Starting point is 00:06:56 Vice President JD Vance delivered his first major speech on that international stage at the Munich Security Conference on Friday. Vance used his time to essentially scold attendees, specifically America's European allies, by telling them they are not doing enough to uphold democratic values. The threat that I worry the most about vis-à-vis Europe is not Russia, it's not China, it's not any other external actor. And what I worry about is the threat from within, the retreat of Europe from some of its most fundamental values, values shared with the United States of America.
Starting point is 00:07:38 For years, we've been told that everything we fund and support is in the name of our shared democratic values. Everything from our Ukraine policy to digital censorship is billed as a defense of democracy. But when we see European courts canceling elections and senior officials threatening to cancel others, we ought to ask whether we're holding ourselves to an appropriately high standard. And I say ourselves because I fundamentally believe that we are on the same team. We must do more than talk about democratic values. We must live them. So know what European leaders have been used to for the last four years. And some were said to be
Starting point is 00:08:20 stunned by those remarks from the vice president. President Trump was later asked for his response. Vice President Vance's speech to the conference has ruffled by a few feathers in Europe. What did he say to ruffle them? He was talking about the freedom of speech and migration in Europe. Do you believe that European leaders have a fundamentally different view of the world than this administration's? Well, I heard his speech. And I tell you, you're talking about JD's speech, right?
Starting point is 00:08:49 Yes, sir. I heard his speech and he talked about freedom of speech. And I think it's true in Europe. It's losing. They're losing their wonderful right of freedom of speech. I see it. I mean, I thought he made a very good speech, actually a very brilliant speech. Yeah. Europe has to be careful. And he talked about immigration. And Europe has
Starting point is 00:09:11 a big immigration problem. Just take a look at what's happened with crime. Take a look at what's happening in various parts of Europe. I thought his speech was very well received, actually. I've heard very good remarks. So David Ignatius, you were reporting at the Munich Security Conference this past week. We spoke to you from there. Your latest piece for the Post is titled, At Munich, Trump's Chaotic Approach Has Allies Rattled. So what did you see in reaction to JD Vance?
Starting point is 00:09:39 Because I've heard some reports that you had Europeans saying, OK, at least we now know where the Americans stand, that they're being clear about this, and maybe it is time for Europe to stand up for more of its own defense. So, Katie, I think there has been a two-stage reaction in the hall when he was speaking. There was what I've described as a stunned silence. The German defense minister was heard muttering, this is unacceptable. And I think that was the feeling of the audience in general here, and American vice president
Starting point is 00:10:13 had come to Munich and essentially insulted the European audience, lecturing them about democracy at a time when there are so many questions about democratic values being observed and upheld in the United States, it seemed particularly inappropriate. But I think the second reaction has been for Europe understanding that it's threatened from the East by a very determined war-like Vladimir Putin to know that it has to stand together. Zelensky, in a clip that you played earlier, said, let's be honest. America may not come to the rescue. America may stand back.
Starting point is 00:10:57 And it's us Europeans, Ukraine and the European countries, that have got to defend ourselves against this strong, advancing Russia. And I found across Europe agreement that they do need to spend more for defense, which Trump has been lecturing them to do for years, and he was right about that, but more fundamentally to stand opposed to Putin and Putin's expansion because America may not be prepared to play that role anymore. So David, Vance's talks there about the freedom of speech interpreted by many to, you know, his
Starting point is 00:11:36 belief that some of the far-right, the right-wing parties in Europe have been muzzled, you know, and he compared that to the situation in the United States. But you're right, this is more than that. This is about a fundamental, potentially a fundamental change in the relationship between the US and Europe, these long-time alliances, those ties really being strained. And we're seeing that on full display with how the Ukraine matter is being handled, where it seems like President Trump's inclination is to go over the head of the Ukrainians and deal just with the Russians and Putin.
Starting point is 00:12:03 What's the latest you've heard about what we should expect this week in Saudi Arabia? Who's going to be there? What's going to be the goal of these talks? So at this moment, and obviously everything that involves this administration is subject to change, this is going to be a meeting in Saudi Arabia between Marco Rubio, our secretary of state, and a Russian delegation led by their Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov. I have not seen any indication that any high-level Ukrainian will be there.
Starting point is 00:12:33 There may be observers, but it's not the same thing. So in effect, what we are seeing is the beginning of peace negotiations over the head of Ukraine, one of the key combatants, a country that's lost hundreds of thousands of young people trying to defend its freedom. It's something that I find really difficult to accept, that we would in effect try to orchestrate a peace agreement without our partner. But we'll see. You know, any time peace agreements, peace negotiations begin, that's cause for happiness.
Starting point is 00:13:07 And I'm glad that Rubio is going to Saudi Arabia and that Saudi Arabia is playing a role as a broker. But it is absolutely crucial that Ukraine be involved in this, not least so that the peace, any peace agreement that's made will be durable. It has to have security guarantees for Ukraine. Ukraine has to feel confident that Russia won't come back across that line six months after the agreement is signed. Otherwise, we're just going to have a continuation of what
Starting point is 00:13:33 we've seen there since 2014. So, John Meacham, let's go to you for a big picture look here. This does seem to be what the vice president said in Munich and the signs we're hearing from President Trump and others at the White House, a fundamental reevaluation of how the U.S. deals with Europe, particularly in being a bulwark against Russian aggression, which would just change the post-World War II order. It changed the post-World War II order.
Starting point is 00:14:02 It changes the Republican Party in a deep and fundamental way. The party of Ronald Reagan is fully the party of Donald Trump, which is a hugely significant historical shift where the center of gravity moves from trust but verify. Mr. Gorbachev teared down this wall. Ronald Reagan was one of the great negotiators in American history, the only union president to ever be president of the United States. And he starts out his term in 1981 saying to the Soviet's reserve under themselves, there's right to lie, to cheat, to steal. And then he ends it literally in the spring of 1988, playing with
Starting point is 00:14:45 babies in Red Square. That's where the Republican Party was 40 years ago. Now it's in a place where, as you suggest, Jonathan, it basically is going back to a pre-World War II, great power politics, where the rule of the strong predominates. And principle, which is always, as David knows far better than I do, principle is always a flexible matter in geopolitics. But we have at least tried since we entered the Second World War, after Nazi Germany declared war on us in the first week of December 1941, the United States has attempted to ground its policy in a principled ethos. This becomes a moment where if you are Russia, if you are China, if you are a foreign power,
Starting point is 00:15:43 what is the lesson of this? The lesson is aggression will be rewarded. And the fundamental principle since 1945 has been that we cannot reward aggression. It's a deep and fundamental thing. So, Elise, I think John seems to be right. What you're saying is right. We had 80 years of a wonderful relationship, and now it's time for a rethink. And arguably, the person you serve, George W. Bush, and then Joe Biden, were the last
Starting point is 00:16:12 transatlantic presidents. Obama wasn't. Clearly, Donald Trump isn't. America first is Europe last, in Donald Trump's mind. But what are the specific openings this gives to, in the short-term, we can talk about China later, but in the short term to Russia? I mean, if you're sitting in Moscow right now, what are you thinking beyond Ukraine? Or are you thinking, listen, I mean, there's another point of view. I've lost so much in Ukraine. It's cost me so much in terms of people. I really don't want
Starting point is 00:16:40 to go any further. Or do you think Zelensky is right when he starts warning, listen, they're having exercises in Belarus just like they did before they invaded Ukraine. Where's next? Well, for Putin, he sees how a clearly transactional relationship with Donald Trump pays off. And he also, though, has to be wary of what he is causing among the European allies right outside his borders, who are really rising to this moment. And I think that's what I would ask David Ignatius, does it seem like at the Munich conference that our allies are seeing that this is not just passing talk from Donald Trump and they're really going to have to step up and provide more of European security
Starting point is 00:17:22 and fill the vacuum that's going to be left by the united states so at least uh... they're hoping that united states will remain a solid partner uh... i heard people you know you could say hoping against hope after hearing the jd man speech that america would continue its traditional role
Starting point is 00:17:44 uh... but but they're trying to prepare for a different kind of future it's so J.D. Manz speech that America would continue its traditional role. But they're trying to prepare for a different kind of future. It's so extraordinary. This Munich conference that I've just come back to, every year is a celebration of the Transatlantic Alliance. The whole idea was to bring Germany, the defeated power in World War II, into the order that would maintain peace and security across Europe around the world.
Starting point is 00:18:06 It's been successful to have this attack on Europe take place at that event was unusual. But I don't want your viewers to think that Europe is giving up on America. I don't think they're there yet. They're hoping, but they're making prudent plans. They're thinking about their own defense because they know they may be, in the end, left alone facing Putin, who is, I just would note, the intelligence reports are clear, Putin has not given up on his desire to dominate Ukraine. He thinks he's winning.
Starting point is 00:18:38 He may go into a negotiation, but that doesn't mean he's giving up his basic goal of overcoming Ukraine's desire to be an independent European nation. Yeah, and certainly Ukrainians fear that the Russians, maybe there is a year or two pause in the fighting, but their whole economy has turned into a military-based one, and they could rearm and try again before too long. So Ali Vatali, to John Meacham's point earlier, the Republican Party, this is such a change for them. It's not so inconsistent from what we've heard from Trump before, but for the traditional
Starting point is 00:19:14 Republicans it is. And we did hear a little bit of pushback from Republican senators at the end of last week when Defense Secretary Hegseth seemed to leverage away much of what Ukraine could get at the peace table, the settlement talks, saying it couldn't go into NATO, saying it wouldn't get its territory back. But what about some of these other Republican senators, those, yes, who are normally Trump allies like Lindsey Graham and the rest, what are they saying? Who have been strong throughout, pre-Trump, post-Trump, being anti-Putin.
Starting point is 00:19:45 What are they saying here about this potential fundamental shift? They have been strong throughout, and yet the America first policy that Trump is now bringing right back to the forefront of this new administration is something that these senators have known and had to adapt to over the course of the last nearly 10 years that Trump has really grabbed their party and pulled it in the direction that he wants it to go. And so yes, you're right that some like Senator Roger Wicker offered some chastisement from Munich that Hegseth and others were basically pre-negotiating before negotiations were even on the table, that they weren't leaving
Starting point is 00:20:20 themselves much room to maneuver. But we've watched the way that this Republican party, senators on Capitol Hill, have all largely allowed themselves to be remade in Trump's image. So yes, you look at some folks like Senator Lindsey Graham. Certainly Mitch McConnell is going to try to be at the forefront of this battle, especially as it comes to Ukraine. He's talked about the fact that national security
Starting point is 00:20:43 and the role of America on the world stage is going to be his calling card in these waning years of his Senate career. The question is, though, A, will it be enough? And B, we were talking at the end of way too early about the permission structure and why sometimes for these Republican senators who may have true disagreements, there's not really an upside to speaking out because it's not going to change the direction that this administration is going and they are going to face the political consequences.
Starting point is 00:21:10 That's been true on everything from confirmation battles, domestic politics, all the way through potentially the way that foreign policy is done in this administration. But of course, as we talk about the Ukraine war, we are also of course speaking about the ongoing conflict the Ukraine war, we are also, of course, speaking about the ongoing conflict in the Middle East as the Israel-Hamas war enters its 500th day. That fragile ceasefire brokered by the Biden administration is still holding, at least at this point.
Starting point is 00:21:36 Hamas released three hostages in exchange for over 300 Palestinian prisoners and detainees over the weekend. This is the sixth swap to occur under that ceasefire deal. The three hostages, which include an American-Israeli dual citizen, were forced to give a speech on a stage with a backdrop of Hamas leaders. All of this comes as Secretary of State Marco Rubio was in Israel over the weekend. Rubio met there with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu yesterday, as well as an Israeli opposition leader, Yair Lapid.
Starting point is 00:22:06 And so, David, as you watch these concurrent parallel conflicts, what do you make? Of course, we've talked about the way that the Ukraine-Russia conflict is unfolding. What do you make about the way the Trump administration is potentially trying to carry this tenuous ceasefire into its next phase. So we have the disruption of President Trump's proposal to turn Gaza into an American-owned Riviera. Putting that aside, there had been the expectation that the hostage release deal, which was negotiated by outgoing Biden
Starting point is 00:22:39 and incoming Trump people, would be the prelude to a true end to this war, that the war in Gaza was going to end. We'd move into phase two. It now appears to me as if that transition to a real ending is not going to happen anytime soon. The Israelis, I talked to say, we see Hamas in the streets as the hostages are released,
Starting point is 00:23:03 strutting around with their guns. There's still very much a military power. They have not been defeated. And there's a broad feeling, I think, in Israel that for all the anguish about the hostages, Hamas needs to be militarily and politically finished before we talk about the next stage. So I begin to think that this war isn't ending. It's likely to go on for a while. Much, much more on these developments overseas later in the show. But next here on Morning
Starting point is 00:23:31 Joe, the jobs of thousands of federal employees are in jeopardy this morning as the Trump administration expands its efforts to slash government spending. We'll go over the agencies impacted, including the fired nuclear safety workers that officials now are trying to get back on the clock. Those seem like important posts. Plus, the Department of Justice officially moves to dismiss corruption charges against New York City Mayor Eric Adams. We're bringing the latest in the legal saga that has led to the resignations of at least seven federal prosecutors. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be back in just 90 seconds.
Starting point is 00:24:21 Back very busy Monday morning here, we turn now to some news at home. Thousands more federal workers were laid off last week as President Trump and Elon Musk continue to drastically cut and reshape the federal workforce. The Trump administration has ordered terminations for thousands of jobs ranging from wildfire prevention to medical research, that's according to reporting from Axios and others. Sources say agencies have also been given until 8 p.m. tomorrow to fire probationary workers on a case-by-case basis. Across the government, there are around 200,000 probationary workers who have been in agencies for less than one to two years. Employees at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and the Department
Starting point is 00:25:06 of Agriculture have reported layoffs. And according to some reports, the Veteran Affairs Department dismissed more than 1,000 employees on Thursday. Politico also reports that many terminations came from within the Health and Human Services Department, hitting staffers at the FDA and the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, Katie. Yeah, the Trump administration has also terminated hundreds of employees at the Centers for Disease Control as well and prevention, including people responsible for supporting disease outbreaks
Starting point is 00:25:38 and the response efforts to those. NBC News spoke to two people at the agency who spoke on the condition of anonymity out of concern over retaliation. And they said that two dozen of the so-called disease detectors in the program received termination emails Saturday that cited poor performance as the reason for the layoffs, even though most of the people who were dismissed had been given excellent performance reviews. Still on health, the Trump administration has also fired 25 percent of the federal workers in a program that's responsible for tracking and monitoring the bird flu outbreak, according
Starting point is 00:26:15 to new reporting. State and local health officials say they've gone weeks without getting regular updates on avian flu from the CDC after Trump froze nearly all external communications from the agency. As the virus continues to spread, the administration has not yet outlined a strategy to stop it. Cuts to USAID have also limited monitoring of the virus overseas, while top roles in the Trump administration central to responding to a pandemic remain empty.
Starting point is 00:26:47 And of course, all of these disruptions come as the virus has been decimating poultry flocks and has been showing signs it can evolve to more easily thrive in other species. At least 68 people have contracted avian flu in the U.S. and one person has died. That's according to the CDC. And the average price of eggs, well, those famous egg prices, a dozen grade A eggs in the US, the price hit a record breaking $4.95 in January due to the outbreak. I mean, the level, even if you ascribe to the theory that, yes, you have to have whatever it is, 20% cut in the federal workforce, at a moment when you have a Navy and flu outbreak
Starting point is 00:27:29 that we are watching happening around the country, you've got a measles outbreak happening down in Texas at the moment, to be cutting the people who are specifically monitoring, this is the problem. We're taking a hatchet. These things need to be done with a very fine tool to make sure that you save the people like the nuclear health workers that we're going to talk about later, nuclear safety workers. But why attack the people that you need in this particular moment?
Starting point is 00:27:50 This seems like- Who have that specialism. Exactly the wrong moment to do this. And so much of it seems to be the Silicon Valley tech startup ethos of go real fast, break things, and then if needed, go back and fix it afterwards. But John Meacham, that seems like a very dangerous game to play right now, particularly in matters of health. And there's such a difference, though, between perhaps trimming government, reshaping government,
Starting point is 00:28:14 and dismantling government. And right now, it seems like what Trump and Muskin are doing is far more the latter. Well, one of the benefits of being a kind of conspiracy theorist is you can always find someone else, some other force to blame. If tragically these forces that Cady lays out become national and international problems, it won't be that we cut, the incumbent administration cut people. It will be, see, we told you they were bad. Right?
Starting point is 00:28:49 So if you keep moving the goalposts up and down the field, which is part of this mindset, and it's what the country, I know there's some debate about this, the country didn't vote for this. They did. this, the country didn't vote for this? They did. There was no mystery about the chaotic factor that was going to be part of a second Trump administration. Now, specifically, did they think that Elon Musk was going to be running around, allegedly, I think the Post reported, trying to get into IRS information, that sort of thing. The details, no. But the basic disruption is something that the country,
Starting point is 00:29:32 49.9% of the country decided to do. So one of the things that I've been struggling with, and I suspect you all have too, is how to best think about a political policy world is how to best think about a political policy world that is now almost entirely chaotic. And one of the things we've learned, I think, in the last decade is that howling against the storm, you know, sort of the King Lear approach, doesn't work. And it may just be that these more specific, clear case studies where you lay out, you know what, the federal government does a lot of things they probably shouldn't do.
Starting point is 00:30:13 There's a lot of inefficiency. There's a lot of inefficiency in the private sector too. You know, inefficiency is a human force. But let's pick these things. Let's pick the right places to cut. And it goes to a President's State point, if I may, which is, you know, there's not a, I know it's surprising, I promise you I will, I'm going to quote John Quincy Adams in a second.
Starting point is 00:30:40 But what I think, what we have here is to there are ways both in foreign policy, both in domestic policy, to do big things without burning the entire place down. Right? And as Sam Rayburn once said, a Speaker of the House, any jackass can kick down a barn, it takes a carpenter to build one. Doesn't mean you can't fix the barn. Doesn't mean you don't have to do maintenance to it. But just to kick it down because you can, I think is going to hurt some folks.
Starting point is 00:31:20 And the place to argue this, I think is exactly on questions like public health, I would argue on foreign policy as well, rewarding aggression. Let's pick the conversations where you can make an appeal for a more balanced approach. Yeah, and to John's point, he watched a post reporting late last night that Musk and his Doge team trying to access sensitive taxpayer information at the IRS. We'll see where that goes today. But amid the onslaught of federal firings, the Trump administration is apparently looking
Starting point is 00:31:53 to reinstate some of the nuclear safety workers that they had previously fired, but now they can't get a hold of them. Multiple staffers within the National Nuclear Security Administration were let go on Thursday. Then on Friday, officials with that agency frantically attempted to rehire some of those employees but struggled to get in touch with them because they no longer had access to their federal government email accounts. And at least this is no better case study than this in terms of the dangers of going too fast, not thinking it through, and targeting workers and departments that should be protected because they perform such
Starting point is 00:32:35 crucial roles. Yeah. Leave the people we need at the FAA, maybe within nuclear agencies. Let's not just get everyone, kick them off the block immediately. I keep going back to, this does remind me of the federal government version of the Afghanistan drawdown. Everyone agreed it was pretty much a bipartisan consensus we needed to get out of Afghanistan. The way it went about, we went about doing it was horrible.
Starting point is 00:33:04 We could have done it in a better way. Right now we agree that there's waste in the federal government and that everyone would like to cut the deficit and cut spending. The way they're going about it, it makes no sense. They need to be more strategic about what they're cutting and where and have some success, have some early success to show that the mission can continue
Starting point is 00:33:26 before you just decimate and hollow out critical areas like nuclear security. So, Ali, I know that you're still in touch with everybody on Capitol Hill, even though you're getting up terribly early, to do another job as well. We haven't heard much complaint yet from members on the Republican side about giving away so much of the power of the purse as they seem happy to have done over the last month. But as these cuts start to take effect, particularly on the public health side, to John Meacham's point, are you getting any members of Congress, on the Republican side in particular, starting
Starting point is 00:34:01 to get a little anxious about whether their constituents might have some of their funding cut. We know that quite a lot of this health funding, for example, quite a lot of the NIH money that goes to research programs is going to universities in red states. But if members of Congress are starting to hear from constituents that their nephew is in a cancer trial program can no longer be on that program because the program is cut, is there a point at which the general public starts to feel the impact of what Elon Musk is doing?
Starting point is 00:34:30 Yes. And we've started to hear from some Republican senators who are recognizing that while they might broadly support making these cuts within government, they might not support it when it comes to the one line item in the budget that goes directly to their constituents. You talk specifically about where some of the NIH funding and grant money might be going. You look at states like Alabama and Maine. I bring those two up because Senators Katie Britt and Susan Collins respectively have spoken about the impacts in their states.
Starting point is 00:35:00 But when we're watching Republican senators speak out, it's not some kind of full-throated standing on business for their constituents. They are doing it with a subtle message of, well, maybe we don't like the way that these cuts are coming down. Maybe we should rethink that. So we're not listening to some kind of full-throated rebuke. Instead, we are listening to senators
Starting point is 00:35:20 trying to make the point subtly that this is coming for their constituents. I wonder if as we get deeper into this, we will end up hearing more forcefully from some of these senators. But certainly you look at the fact that they're trying to claw back some of the employees that they've gotten rid of. It almost feels like, well, if this isn't the result of my actions coming back to bite us, looking at those nuclear regulators, among others, don't forget, David Ignatius, that it's tax season, and they're also looking to not just access IRS systems, but also potentially lay off IRS workers there.
Starting point is 00:35:53 I mean, this is a full-scale assault on government, and it's going to have impact. I said to a Trump supporter during my trip to Munich over the weekend that this is looking to me like a case of ready, fire, aim. The aim only comes at the end. And that's no way to run a government, but no way to run a reformer government. And I think the point that you and Kadhi and john are making that that when this comes home to roost when people in your district are getting their clinics closed or their checks aren't arriving or other basic services that they depend
Starting point is 00:36:35 on or when the avian flu which could be really deadly that begins to sweep across the country people will say where is government where's the help i need and then maybe we'll have a congressional response that we haven't to sweep across the country, people will say, where is government? Where's the help I need? And then maybe we'll have a congressional response that we haven't seen so far. But the way in which this group of young people working for the world's richest man are sitting in this kind of pinnacle, pushing buttons on algorithms and systems and deciding who stays and who goes. If you try to write a plot with that novel, people will laugh at you, but it's happening. Yeah, it is happening, and it's happening just as much in red states as blue states,
Starting point is 00:37:16 but yet to this point, almost no criticism from Trump's fellow Republicans. Coming up next, the president is now facing rebuke for appearing to quote a French monarch, and yes, that one, while suggesting he's above the law. The criticism includes one prominent conservative voice who says, this is not restoring the way the Justice Department is supposed to work. We'll read from that new piece in the National Review
Starting point is 00:37:43 when Morning Joe comes right back. We had the extraordinary events at home this week, the breathtaking actions which President Trump is taking, much of it following what he promised on the campaign trail, pink slips for thousands of federal employees, some fired, others taking a now expired offer to leave their jobs in exchange for being paid without working until September. And in New York, a tense standoff played out over the Trump Justice Department's efforts to drop, at least for now, corruption charges against New York City Mayor Eric Adams.
Starting point is 00:38:30 The top prosecutor in the Southern District of New York, Danielle Sassoon, a highly respected conservative who was appointed by Donald Trump, blasted the move and she resigned in protest. Six other career prosecutors followed her lead and resigned, an exodus that has drawn comparisons to the darkest days of Watergate. That's ABC's Jonathan Karl sounding the alarm about what he termed the exodus of prosecutors in President Trump's Justice Department, comparing it to the darkest days of Watergate. He was referring to events surrounding the SDNY corruption case against New York City Mayor Eric Adams, which has been submitted now for dismissal. On Friday, an attorney at the Department of Justice officially signed off on the order
Starting point is 00:39:18 to drop the charges. This after a total of seven federal prosecutors tendered their resignations in protest. The final prosecutor to leave rather than comply was Hagen Scotton. He was one of the leads on the Adams case. Scotton has impeccable conservative credentials, having clerked for both Supreme Court Justice John Roberts and then DC Circuit Court of Appeals Judge Brett Kavanaugh. He slammed the decision to drop the charges in his resignation letter, specifically pointing to the order to dismiss the case without prejudice, meaning that the DOJ could refile it in the future.
Starting point is 00:39:58 Quote, no system of ordered liberty can allow the government to use the carrot of dismissing charges or the stick of threatening to bring them again to induce an elected official to support its policy objectives. Late last year Mayor Adams was indicted on multiple charges including bribery and fraud. He has maintained his innocence. Last week the acting Deputy Attorney General, Emil Bovi, ordered the Southern District of New York to dismiss the charges in an explosive memo that triggered a massive revolt within the DOJ in New York and Washington. The filing to dismiss the case does not immediately release Adams from the charges.
Starting point is 00:40:39 A federal judge must now approve of the order. So let's see where that one goes. Yeah. I mean, extraordinary kind of quipro quo. And see where that one goes. Yeah, just- I mean, extraordinary kind of quipro quo. And the people going around saying, well, Eric Adams is now walking around in a t-shirt that says, property of the US government. Just seemingly so blatant.
Starting point is 00:40:52 And then some of the city and states top Democrats are saying exactly that, that Adams is beholden now to Trump, will have to do his agenda. Can he really govern with New York City's citizens at the forefront of his mind? We'll have more on that a little later in the show. Meanwhile, amid the numerous legal challenges
Starting point is 00:41:09 to many of the moves by his administration, President Trump posted a single sentence message to his social media accounts on Saturday. While he was out golfing, I might add, he wrote this. He who saves his country does not violate any law. That line has sometimes been attributed to the French emperor and military leader Napoleon Bonaparte. Yes, Napoleon. Keeping that in mind, we want to read from a new column from the conservative national review, which bears this title. This is not restoring the way the Justice Department is supposed to work.
Starting point is 00:41:48 And it's by senior fellow Andrew McCarthy, who writes in part this. Pam Bondi now represents the Justice Department, in fact, leads it. It is thus her ethical duty to advance whatever good faith defense there is of the government's conduct. If she is just going to spout Trump's grievances without putting the Justice Department's response to egregious behavior and context, then she's engaging in partisan law enforcement. Exactly the noxious practice she claims to be rooting out. The weaponization directive is doing politics, not removing politics from law enforcement.
Starting point is 00:42:26 Plainly, the weaponization working group exists to settle the president's scores and rewrite dark chapters of his history while providing him with quarterly assurances of Attorney General Bondi's progress on what is now the Justice Department's core mission. So, John Meacham, you're the historian here. Napoleon got mentioned, so therefore, obviously we're coming to you. But this is, I mean, this is Napoleon, of course, not exactly the model of a democratic leader.
Starting point is 00:43:02 Talk to us about what this really means, because as we just read from, there's all kinds of echoes of Watergate here. This is a president who's basically saying, I am the law. I'm above the law. Yeah. Yeah. Napoleon Bonaparte, of course, declared himself emperor of France in the wake of a revolution intimately linked with ours. Sorry, Cady, I know this is a rough day for you, given 1776 through the...Cady actually has a...on Yorktown, she
Starting point is 00:43:37 wears black at the anniversary. But the point of the United States of America, as Thomas Bain said, is that in America, the law would be king. Now, I am not going to naively or sentimentally sit here and say that no American president in history has ever gone beyond the bounds of the Constitution in order to govern. They have always followed the letter of the law. That is not true. Right? they have always followed the letter of the law. That is not true, right? Thomas Jefferson bought Louisiana, from Napoleon by the way, calling it a fugitive occurrence.
Starting point is 00:44:13 It was not strictly within the bounds of the law. If Alexander Hamilton had tried to do it, Jefferson, his head would have exploded. But people tend to be against executive power until they have it, which is an important thing to remember. This is about context, balance, and scope. Did Abraham Lincoln go beyond the bounds of the Constitution to save the Constitution?
Starting point is 00:44:42 Yes. I just ask you and I ask the country to think about is this a crisis on the scale of the Civil War is when President Trump came in to Pat now it's emerging as a very important critically important moment about the rule of law.
Starting point is 00:45:05 But it begins with President Trump telling us essentially that the country is in the, I'm paraphrasing but only narrowly, is in the grip of a dark and even evil force and that he alone is going to break that grip. And therefore, enter Napoleon from the internet, therefore anyone who saves the country and breaks that grip is intrinsically heroic. And the danger we have here is that if in fact President Trump believes that anything he does is justified, then we are in a place where we genuinely have not been before. for. Having presidents who have violated the letter and even at times the spirit of the Constitution, the Declaration, is something we have had before. Sometimes we view it well, which I think Lincoln ultimately is redeemed by saving the Union by suspending, you know,
Starting point is 00:46:18 when he suspended habeas corpus, shouldn't have done it ideally, did it, Union survives, we still go to the Lincoln Memorial. But some of the dark chapters that presidents then have to endure for all of history, the internment of the Japanese Americans during World War II is something that Franklin Roosevelt's administration always has to bear and that was a violation of the spirit of the Declaration and the Constitution. To me that's the question is are we doing things, is the President Trump doing something that if it's in a particularly vociferous way, is it justified by the circumstances
Starting point is 00:47:06 or is he doing it simply because he can? So David, listening to what John's just saying, and in the context of how Europe, where you've just come back from, responds, I mean, there's always been a sense about America, the pendulum swings, it goes one way and then it goes another, but it comes back to the center. If the rest of the world is now looking at America thinking,
Starting point is 00:47:28 you know what, America's not that reliable. We could get tariffs. I mean, we may not get them, but we could get them. The rule of law may be a little bit more fluid than we're used to it being if we wanted to invest our money there. And we know that the Europeans are trying to mount more of their own operations.
Starting point is 00:47:46 There's been a lot of talk of that over the last few days. They are having meetings with the Ukrainians, for example, over Ukraine. I think the calculation in the Trump administration is America is the strongest, this is the biggest market. They have no choice. What was your feeling in Europe? Was there a feeling that actually now
Starting point is 00:48:03 they will start to look elsewhere, or is there a feeling that actually, okay, we would love to look elsewhere, but Trump is right. America is the biggest game in town, and we have to be part of that market. The United States is so dominant in the world that there isn't really a good option for walking away from America for Europe, or indeed right now for China. So that American power, the momentum of our power continues. People are worried, but as Warren Buffett likes to say, anybody, whoever in our history bet against America lost money. That's just been a bad bet that even in our worst periods, periods of greatest instability, worst leadership,
Starting point is 00:48:48 the country has recovered and prospered in amazing ways. And I think that feeling is still embedded in Europe. I would just say to what John Meacham said so thoughtfully, we're now in a situation that tests the ideas that our founders put at the center of our Constitution, how we're ruled. They thought a lot about executive power being abused. They just had broken away from a king whose abusive power had caused a revolution, and they wanted to make sure that there were checks and balances, as we always say, against abuse of that power. We're now seeing cases in which people are asking, and the courts will ask, is this an
Starting point is 00:49:31 abuse of presidential power or is it legitimate? And I think, you know, hopefully at the center of how this is resolved will be our system, system the founders created to resolve differences in moments like this.

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.