Morning Joe - Morning Joe 2/21/23

Episode Date: February 21, 2023

New details emerge about Biden’s surprise trip to Ukraine

Vladimir Putin's State of the Union just wrapped up in Moscow. At nearly two hours long, the address filled with propaganda about his invasion of Ukraine, with Putin again accusing the West of starting the war, giving no indication the fighting will end anytime soon. Putin's speech comes with new reporting this morning on China's growing concerns about Russia's weakened status on the world stage. Meanwhile, we will hear from President Joe Biden later this morning as he is in Poland now to meet with allies following that historic trip to Ukraine. Also ahead, the MAGA members of Congress staying on brand, criticizing the president for

visiting Ukraine. We'll go through some of their comments. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It's Tuesday, February 21st with me here in New York. Way too early host and the White House Bureau chief of Politico, Jonathan Lemire. And at the table with Joe in Washington, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist at The Washington Post, Eugene Robinson, former White House press secretary, now an MSNBC host, Jen Psaki, and columnist and associate editor for The Washington Post, David Ignatius.

Also with us, founder of the conservative website, The Bulwark, Charlie Sykes. So, Joe, just incredible, staggering, historic scenes yesterday of President Biden walking the streets of Kiev. We'll get into some of the details that Jen can appreciate about how they pulled this off to get the president inside of that country via train on a secret flight out of Andrews Air Force Base. But what a message the president sent yesterday. Well, incredible, an incredible message that he sent his historic trip. David Ignatius, the first time since the Civil War, since Lincoln Road, to see how union troops are doing against the South, that a president rode into a war zone that his side

was not controlling. Just no U.S. troops, obviously, no U.S. troops in Ukraine. The security obviously could not be guaranteed.. Joe Biden went and sent just an absolutely stunning message to the world, but most importantly, to the people of Ukraine. We're here. Ukraine stands. Kiev stands. Freedom stands. He said in what I thought was the signature line of the speech, we're here as long as it takes. And to me, Joe, his his presence there just was a reminder of what physical presence and personal courage has meant in this war. This war became a real battle in which the Russians were being pushed back because of the physical image of Vladimir Zelensky, the president, who didn't flee Kiev.

We offered him help. We said, you know, how can we help you find another alternative capital? He said, no, I'm staying. What was his what was his line? He said, I need weapons, not a ride. I need weapons, not a ride. I'm staying. I'm here. And it was that figure. We all remember the image of him in his gray, green outfit, sitting with his pals. He stayed and the country saw it. And I had messages from Ukrainian friends yesterday who said they were in tears because they were so moved that this American

president had taken the risk physically to be there with them, to make this statement, we're here, we support you for as long as it takes. So I think it's one of the most important days in Biden's presidency, in which his basic qualities of commitment, caution is part of it, but overcoming that caution to be there with people who needed him. An extraordinary trip, Shane, a trip unlike, again, any president in our lifetime, any president in Biden's lifetime, any president, as you wrote in the column, since Abraham Lincoln. I mean, the guy takes, sneaks out of Washington, goes to the border,

the abandoned train station, goes about 10 hours through the night, gets there, and then with the Russians knowing he's there, takes a 10-hour train trip back. Exactly. Essentially daring Putin. Go ahead. You know where I am. It's a scene, again,

but we have not witnessed in our lifetime any president. That's the amazing thing. I mean, you're so exposed. He's exposed on that train for 10 hours, riding through Ukraine. And yeah, you know, come on, Putin, take a shot if you want to take it, you know, if you if you want to take a shot. I thought it was an incredibly moving day, as you said, an incredible day in the in the Biden presidency and an incredible day for Ukraine. I mean, just every report is that

it's about what it has done to the spirit of the Ukrainian people, not that it was necessarily flagging, but it certainly got a boost from President Biden's presence. And the message he delivered was firm and and it helps unite the allies, keep the allies together as well. When they see President Biden taking this risky step. So it was a huge, huge day. We've we've spoken time and again, Jane or Jen, about how Vladimir Putin has underestimated Ukraine. He's underestimated the West's resolve. Overestimated his own military. He's overestimated his own military. He's underestimated Joe Biden time and again.

But that's really Biden's strength. Biden underestimated time and again before the 2022 election. Everybody's shocked. Underestimated again. You start to hear the talking in Washington every two weeks. Who's going to replace him? He's too old. He does the State of the Union address and people sit up in their chairs, go, my God, this we've underestimated. And here, you know, Meek and I had a lot of discussions when we knew he was going to Poland. She goes, do you think you'll go to Kiev? I go, I just don't see how anybody could make that 20-hour trip exposed. He did it. Yeah.

I mean, we're at about a year, right, from the start of this war, which is so stark. And I was just thinking this morning, remembering back what we were all looking at a year ago, which was a Russian military we all thought was going to immediately, quickly, in days, overpower the Ukrainians. They did not. Skepticism about the Europeans staying together and providing support, that was wrong. Even we here in the United States were skeptical. Even sitting in the White House were skeptical about what would happen. I think it's impossible having I've planned. I've worked on a lot of these trips. You plan to go to war zones. This is a step beyond given the U.S. military doesn't oversee Ukraine. That's the key thing. But for any war zone, Afghanistan, Iraq, places where presidents have gone for decades, it is secret. You tell no one. It's so dangerous. And the U.S. military controls those areas. Biden's wanted to go since I was back in the White House. But as you all have said, this is this was dangerous. And he did it because he wanted to show we're with you and send that message to the public to that scene of U.S. jets flying along the Polish border, but not being able to follow the train into Ukraine.

As Biden goes in with a small staff winding on an excruciating 10-hour train trip, where the Russians, again, Russians could have very easily taken the train out, taken Biden out. He did the trip anyway. And Willie, it is really is something. It's been a long, hard winter for the Ukrainians and for Joe Biden, for the American president, any American president to arrive at this time shows such an extraordinary vote of confidence. And also, of course, with the message, Kiev stands and we're going to stand next to you as long as we need to. And it was clear that the Ukrainian people felt that. There are extraordinary videos on social media of kids looking out the windows of

their apartment buildings in Kiev after a year of living under bombardment and air raid sirens day and night and seeing the motorcade of the president of the United States pass by their window and kind of cheering in delight. So there's the obvious geopolitical concern where he's making a statement and saying, yes, the West is still here. I am here. I'm willing to walk the streets of Kiev with President Zelensky. But then there's also, as you all have been saying, the emotional uplift that it brought, even if just for a day or two, to the people of Ukraine to say, wow, the president of the United States cares so much that he risked a lot to come here and be here. And there he is out my window right now. They will

not soon forget that. We're going to come back to this visit in just a second. But we have Keir Simmons standing by. We mentioned the speech by Russian President Vladimir Putin, about 90 minutes long, on the status of his invasion of Ukraine, now nearly a year old. The speech, given in front of Russian elites, members of parliament, military commanders, and soldiers, focused largely on domestic issues, but also included a warning to Western nations about their aid. Putin said, in part, the more long-range Western systems are being delivered to Ukraine, the farther we will be forced to move the threat from our borders. That's a quote from him. Joining us live from Moscow, NBC News chief international correspondent, Keir Simmons. Keir, what else did we hear in that

speech? Sounds like a lot of what we've heard previously, blaming the West for the war in Ukraine. I'm curious if you've heard any reaction inside Moscow to President Biden's visit to Kyiv. Well, Willie, you're right. I mean, it's bitterly cold here outside in Moscow, and we had almost two hours of bitterness inside from President Putin. He notably used the term war in this speech, but notably blamed Ukraine and the West and Washington for the war. He said they started the war.

It was unleashed. They unleashed the war. We are using force to stop it. And that kind of logic continued on and on, describing Ukraine bowing to its Western masters and suggesting that this is about an existential threat to Russia. He said they want to defeat Russia. They are trying to turn a local conflict into a global conflict. And then he ended his speech with the words, the truth is with us, to another standing ovation. There were multiple standing ovations from what is basically, you know,

the kind of Russian Politburo sitting out in front of him. So the answer to your question, he's just finished talking. The answer to your question, ostensibly, in terms of the reaction, certainly from his officials, his team around him, if you like, is, of course, praise, as you would expect. I think there will be some pieces of this that will be poured over in Western Europe and in Washington. He critically suggested that Russian intelligence believes that the U.S. is considering testing, doing some kind of a nuclear test and said if the West does that, then we will test,

we will conduct a nuclear test too. He said that he is going to stop cooperation on the strategic weapons agreement, then quickly said we're not saying that we're exiting that agreement. That is the last agreement between the US and Russia over nuclear weapons. So he justified that by saying that the West is helping Ukraine with intelligence. So why would we allow inspections and give Ukraine more intelligence? And it went on and on like that, really. It really was just as we expected from President Putin. No compromise, no apology after a year of killing.

Frankly, no end in sight. And no sign of retreat at all. People were looking for any cracks in his resolve to continue this war. Nothing that we saw in those nearly two hours. We've been talking this morning, Keeve, that the United States did give the Putin regime, did give Russia fair warning that President Biden would be traveling on that train and into Kiev to avoid any kind of conflict while he was there. That is a matter of routine. It's happened on other visits as well when we're trying to avoid a conflict. What are you hearing inside Moscow about President Biden's visit? What's been the reaction there?

Well, President Putin didn't mention President Biden, didn't mention President Zelensky, didn't mention the visit today in that speech. There has been a reaction kind of ranging from mocking to outrage amongst Russian officials and the Russian establishment. Plainly, as we have been saying yesterday, President Putin a year ago would have wanted to have been in Kiev with a different leader, just the way that President Biden was there with President Zelensky yesterday. So it must have, you know, it must have hurt. The Kremlin claiming that yesterday he spent the day simply working on his speech today, his version of the State of the Union.

But if he had looked up on Russian television, he would have seen President Biden there in Ukraine. I think another point just to mention, Willie, we are waiting for China's top diplomat to arrive here in Moscow, China warning that this conflict could spin out of control, while Zelensky warning China that if it backs Russia militarily, that could turn into World War III. I think you mentioned the fact that the Russians were told that President Biden was going to be in Ukraine. There's, I guess, a slither of something there. Clearly, you would imagine that President Putin

wouldn't want to escalate things to the extent of targeting an American president. So, you know, there's some small light of logic, I suppose. I think all eyes on the Chinese this week, though, because China faces a very, very difficult diplomatic position. They don't want Russia to crumble. And you heard President Putin this morning claiming that there's an existential threat to Russia. Frankly, it's more likely that actually the threat is to his leadership. But China doesn't want to see Russia crumble. It doesn't want to see President Putin moved out of his leadership position.

But at the same time, China clearly needs to continue its economic connection with Europe and with the US. I think, you know, for China, that is a challenge that they're trying to address by talking about coming up with some kind of a peace proposal at the end of this week. But, of course, there's no trust. There's no trust in President Xi from Washington to do something like that. So the diplomatic tectonic plates are shifting.

And I think beyond the rhetoric, it's worth just paying attention to what various countries are doing, particularly Beijing, through this week and as we look ahead. No comment from Putin on President Biden's visit. Some senators, some members of parliament calling this in Russia, calling this a provocation. Former President Dmitry Dmitry Medvedev saying Biden finally went to Kiev swearing allegiance to the neo-Nazi regime. They call Vladimir Zelensky's regime the neo-Nazi regime. NBC News chief international correspondent Keir Simmons in Moscow for us. Keir, thanks so much. So, John, this has been a long time coming. President Biden has watched other world leaders walk the streets of Kiev. Boris Johnson, most notably, among others, with President Zelensky, wanted to go for a long time. This is no small feat, though,

to get the leader of the free world quietly into Ukraine. Now, the president had been agitating for a while to go. There was some consideration last June when he was in Europe for NATO meetings. They perhaps could attach a visit then. They opted against. There have been several moments here this planning months now to make this happen, where the president was presented with a go or no go moments. And every time the answer was always go, expressed aides say. No hesitation there. Did not fear for his own personal safety. And yes, the message to Moscow ahead of time, that is routine. And there is something to be said that there is still at least one diplomatic channel open between Washington and Moscow to make sure things don't escalate.

But it was also another message, a subtext there like, don't mess with us. We're doing this. You're not going to try to stop us. And Moscow did not. I mean, the president was sort of the last major Western leader to make it to Kiev, but certainly very meaningful. And the timing of this deliberate more so than just even the idea that it is the first anniversary of the war in a couple of days. But they know this is an inflection point. The fighting is only going to grow more fierce there in the spring, these next couple of months.

And Biden, aides tell me, understands this is a moment to both rally support at home, and polls have suggested that Americans, their support for Ukraine has slipped a little bit, or at least the idea of sending money and weapons to Ukraine, that's slipped a little bit. Rally at home, try to keep those Republican forces at bay, still a minority in the House, to say we shouldn't be helping Kiev, try to keep pushing them back, but also to, of course, rally European allies and send that message to Putin to say we are here

for the long haul and we will continue to support Kiev because it's a battle for democracy itself. Joe Keir makes such a great point when he says a year ago around this time, the first anniversary of the war is a year from Friday, it'll be, that it was supposed to be Vladimir Putin walking the streets of Kyiv after an easy victory with his tanks rolling in and a parade. Instead, on the one year anniversary, it's President Biden walking the streets of President Zelensky, who's still standing a year later and showing the resolve of the United States and the West to stay with Ukraine. It is one of the most remarkable foreign policy stories of our time. Chen was talking earlier about how the White House didn't expect this to go more than three or four days. I don't know a single person I spoke with around that time in

the lead up to the war that thought the Ukrainians would last more than a week. Putin was going to be in Kiev within a week. He was going to reconstitute the greater Russian empire. They're going to take over Kiev, Odessa. And his dreams of the past, well, I was going to say the past 20 years, going all the way back to 1989, when he worked for the KGB in East Germany and he was hurriedly burning documents for the KGB before, you know, as the wall was going down. This was his dream and it was supposed to be accomplished a year later. 200,000 casualties, according to British intelligence, 60,000, 70,000 Russians killed in war in economic turmoil. And all he has to provide one year later, Gene, is is is a fire hose of falsehood falsehoods that it's just cranked up to 10. And it's one lie after another lie after another lie. But a sobering thought for us here. A lot of Russians believe.

Exactly. Exactly. I mean, this is what this is what Russians hear. It is in, I think, human nature, really, to sort of rally around the flag. We've seen that in conflicts, you know, decade after decade. And many Russians have rallied around the flag and are sort of buying this patently illogical story that Putin is telling about Zelensky somehow being a Nazi and about the West having started this war when clearly it did not. But nonetheless, people have rallied to some extent around him. We'll see how long that lasts. I mean, it doesn't last forever, but it could last for a while.

Something that's happened over the past couple of months, absolutely fascinating. You have the Chinese, after meeting with Putin, putting out a cool, terse statement, Modi criticizing the war, Erdogan criticizing the war, people that Putin does business with, David, and now reports that the Chinese, who had a year ago decided to go into this, what do they call it? A total no limits. No limits. Friendship has limits. And it's had limits for a year. And now the Chinese, you know, Keira's saying we don't trust President Xi. Of course we don't trust President Xi.

But we can't trust President Xi to do what's in President Xi's best interest. And the Wall Street Journal story this morning talking about how she has come to realize Russia is getting destroyed. They are crumbling as a nation. He needs Russia to survive, to counterbalance the United States of America. So now he's talking about putting together a peace plan. She seems to have decided two things, which is that Russia cannot be allowed to lose. And so this war needs to end before that happens. And second, this war cannot go nuclear.

And he's been very explicit in saying that. Chancellor Schultz asked him to take a stronger line on that, and he did. So that's a guardrail for this conflict. I'm just struck looking at Putin this morning in the classic manner, I hate to say it, of a Russian leader just lying in the face of reality. And he's backed into a corner and he is asserting that the West started this war. We all watched it. Right. We all watched them prepare for it. We watched the whole world say, don't do it. And they did it anyway. And we listened to them lie time and time again. We're not going in.

You remember in the old days, the Soviets would have a way if they didn't, if some leader got removed, they just erase his face from the group picture and they wouldn't be there anymore. This is a little bit like that. It's erasing the inconvenient fact that Vladimir Putin's war has failed, that his vision for the future of Ukraine was completely false. And he's now stuck in the situation where I suppose he his only hope is the Chinese will come and rescue him somehow. But what does what does China do, though? I mean, China can't lose. So if China decides that he is about to fail and rather than if they think they're unable to get a settlement that will work in his favor, they could supply him with weapons. But the problem with that is, Jen, the reason they haven't supplied him with weapons over the past year is we have warned him.

Again, we've said it here on the show before. If China's economy was growing at 7, 8, 9 percent, they would have already done it and told us to go to hell. She has so many problems right now, including Russia and Putin. Of his own making, that the last thing he can do is get into a sort of trade war with the West that Putin's dealing with. But he's stuck a little bit because he clearly, I would guess, hoped that a year ago that this would end quickly. And remember, he was kind of straddling this spot of not being engaged, really not taking sides. Right now, it's this question of alignment.

I mean, one of the themes of Putin's speech, where he lied consistently, was that it's us versus them. The audience of that speech was the Russian people. How much he's losing them, let's not overstate that. But he needs to convince them when 200,000 troops have died, Russian troops, that this is a war worth fighting. And some of the themes in that speech were, we're not fighting Ukraine. We're fighting that big U.S. military and all those Western interests. It's us against them. So it's like China. What side are you going to be on? And that is the thing that is very awkward for for Xi. Yeah. You know, Willie, you look at Xi's reaction to this and it becomes more evident every day that just as Putin fears a free westward leaning Ukraine,

Xi fears disruption inside of Putin's Russia. He doesn't know what comes next. Does Russia become less autocratic? Does it become more democratic? Does it lean more to the West than Putin's Russia? Well, of course it would. So, again, for Xi, he's got to do everything he can to hold up that partner. And I think short of really getting in supplying the troops, because he has to know that doesn't end well for China either. But as we talk about this, it is so clear that this is a battle between a Western democracy and and and Russian and Chinese autocracy. And yet you had while you have the majority of Republicans in the Senate supporting the president and Western democracy, you had some buffoons yesterday on Capitol Hill say some absolutely remarkable things that I have no doubt RT will be playing

for the next few weeks. Russian television will be playing for the next couple weeks. They hate the American president so much that they're willing to provide aid and comfort to the Russian cause. It really is. So, yeah, one one of Kevin McCarthy's closest associates talked about a civil war, talked about secession and others openly, openly just contemptuous of Ukraine and the efforts they're saying doesn't matter to us. And a guy who wants to be president of the United States actually going on television yesterday saying Russia doesn't pose any threat to its neighbors.

Yeah, we're going to walk through all of that because some of it is pretty stunning. There may be some small group of those people that you just named that don't understand why it's important that the president of the United States made that visit to Kyiv, but most of them do, which makes it worse. Their intellectual dishonesty was on display yesterday, and we'll walk through some of that. We're also going to have more on how this trip by President Biden inside Ukraine, into the streets of Kyiv, came to be when Principal Deputy National Security Advisor John Feiner joins our conversation. Plus, the must-read opinion pages, including a piece titled, Biden Just Destroyed Putin's Last Hope. And why 2024 presidential

candidate Nikki Haley says she has not attacked former President Trump, even though he has criticized her campaign several times already. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. I guess for President Biden left key Florida Governor Ron DeSantis was on television downplaying the threat Russia's military poses to Europe and to the rest of the world. Here's what DeSantis said in an interview on Fox News. I think it's important to point out, I mean, you know, the fear of kind of Russia going into NATO countries and all that and steamrolling, you know, that has not even come close to happening. I think they've shown themselves to be a third rate military power. I think they've suffered tremendous, tremendous losses. I got to think that the people in Russia are probably disapproving of what's going on.

I don't think they can speak up about it for obvious reasons. So I think Russia has been really, really wounded here. And I don't think that they are the same threat to our country, even though they're hostile. I don't think they're on the same level as a China. More on that in a moment. The president's visit to Kiev also drew criticism from a number of far right house Republicans. Andy Biggs of Arizona, for example, wrote the president should be in East Palestine, Ohio, where the train derailed earlier this month, exposing the small town to hazardous chemicals. Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia claimed the war in Ukraine has become a proxy war between the U.S. and China and that it should end immediately. And Greg Murphy of North Carolina blamed President Biden for the war in Ukraine, writing it's a war zone he created. There were also a few Republican senators who accused the president of neglecting the people of Ohio and the crisis at the southern border.

That's notably different from the continued support for Ukrainian aid from Senate Republican leadership. Russia has to lose in Ukraine and we can't put a time limit on it. But the one thing we can do to address the problem that was raised by our friend here from Ukraine, speed up the decision making, get the weapons there quicker. So as far as I'm concerned, and I think I can speak pretty thoroughly for most of the members of my party in Congress, we're in this to win because losing is not an option. So, Joe, there were obviously we pointed out some of those Republicans, the leadership, Mitch McConnell, pledging his ongoing continued support for the effort in Ukraine. He just wants it to move a little bit faster. But going back to the guy who it looks more and more like is going to run for president, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, I guess trying to stake out some point of difference with

President Biden, but kind of losing his way while doing so. It was really it was as bad as the debate with Charlie Criss. Charlie asked him if he was going to run for president. He just sort of it was a Brick Tamblyn moment. It was. Eating mayonnaise out of a toaster. Eating mayonnaise out of a toaster. If that interview had gone any longer

and they'd asked him a follow-up question, he would have obviously come back and said, I love LAMB. We didn't get there, thank God, but it was difficult to view that. And Charlie Sykes, this is supposed to be like the great hope for the Republican Party, the great hope. And I guess the governor doesn't understand that he's saying, well, this Russia is not as dangerous as they were a year ago because of everything Joe Biden has done over the past year.

He makes his statement, which makes no sense. He says, I love lamp. And then he starts talking about how Russia has been degraded, been degraded as a military. They're not as powerful as they once were. They're not as powerful as they were a year ago. He might as well send a bouquet of flowers to Joe Biden. Yeah, this is Ron DeSantis' debut on the national stage, and it didn't go well. I mean, his comments, I thought, were as pathetic as they were predictable. Look, he can't allow himself to get outflanked by the America first isolationist. But but he went throughed by the, you know, America first isolationist. But but he went through the playbook, you know, blame Biden, downplay the Russia threat, deny the stakes that we've been talking about. The fact that this is a this is an existential challenge between

the West and Russia, like as Mitch McConnell says, that we cannot lose. Look, you know, he's he's not at this point one of the House useful idiots for Vladimir Putin. But look, the Republican reaction is awfully revealing here. First of all, you know, there are no doves. There are no anti-war pacifists here. There are some who are genuine isolationists, America first isolationists. There are some who are actually actively pro Vladimir Putin. But but primarily they're anti Zelensky and they are anti Biden. And so what you're basically saying is that whatever Joe Biden does, they are going to oppose, which comes a day after what should have been a moment of bipartisan unity. I mean, it was an extraordinary scene.

The president of the United States in this war zone. I am old enough to remember when leaders of both parties would have felt that as a moment of pride. Instead, what do we get? We get some sort of, you know, petty ankle biting from Congress and from Ron DeSantis. And again, those tweets coming while an American president was on the ground in a war zone where there were no U.S. troops to protect him. It was it was really quite remarkable. Dave Ignatius, though, let's let's keep this in perspective.

We played a clip of Mitch McConnell. Mitch McConnell has has said time and time again, Russia must lose. Ukraine must win. And most Republicans, most other than than those that go sit on bales of hay and, you know, aim at balloons with their AR-15s. Most Senate Republicans have actually been very sober and very serious and stood shoulder to shoulder with Democrats in the Senate and the president of the United States. You know, that's the real story today. Yes. Biden went to Kiev. He went to Kiev with a basically united United States Congress behind him. There are a few outliers, but they're not many. He went with the United Atlantic Alliance with with the Europe that had been predicted to be ready to fracture that was pretty solidly behind U.S. leadership and behind Ukraine. In the end, war is about will. And we're seeing the clash of

two strong wills here. I'll say Zelensky, but Zelensky backed by Biden against Putin. And in this test of wills, I think yesterday the West got stronger for Biden's trip. It showed a more united America, a more united Europe than Putin ever imagined. And that's that's the real story. These other Marjorie Taylor Greene. I mean, you know, whatever that talk again, Charlie Sykes talking about secession, which, of course, we've looked at all the numbers. And by the way, not a backbencher. Somebody who was responsible for Kevin McCarthy's rise. Somebody who Kevin McCarthy said he would stand next to to the bitter end said that red states needed to secede from America. Of course, this is so laughable because blue states, as we all know, are the donor states, are the states where taxpayers take it on the chin to take care of districts like Marjorie Taylor Greene's, to take care of districts across Texas where Ted Cruz talks about, you know, it talks about secession.

Not all of Texas. There's there's there's a lot of taxes that actually contributes very well. But look at the dark blue states, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, South Carolina, Kentucky, West Virginia. You're talking about the states that Alaska, the biggest supporters of Donald Trump and Trumpism. And, you know, and of course, you know, what can you say? What can you say? We always hear about this, you know, secession. And I've got to ask, what is it that so deeply offends them that like three trans athletes in Utah want to swim? Is that real? I mean, are military stronger than it's ever been? Are our opponents on the run? Russia on the run. China in decline, at least for now.

Or Iran facing facing protests day in and day out. Again, it's fascinating that they're so desperate to raise money that they're willing, from small donors, they're actually willing to say, we need to have a civil war. Well, it is deeply unserious, as you'd expect from Marjorie Taylor Greene, who, by the way, sits on the Homeland Security Committee. So we've seen this transit. We've seen the transition from sedition to secession in a very short period of time. Look, a year ago, Joe, I actually called the shot. I said, look, the next big MAGA play is going to be national divorce. They're going to talk about it, not because they're going to do it, but because they have

to keep ratcheting up the outrage. Look, this is still the far right. But one of the things that we have learned is the way that the crazy ideas from the far right become mainstream because there are no longer guardrails. It'll be interesting to see if Kevin McCarthy has anything to say about all of this. But there's not going to be a national divorce. But this kind of rhetoric is dangerous. And also, you know, while I think that, you know, we have the leadership of both parties showing unity, don't don't neglect the fact that people like Marjorie

Taylor Greene and Ron DeSantis are appealing to the id of the party, the id of the right, which is anti-Ukraine, which is willing to tolerate this sort of notion that our real enemy is not Vladimir Putin. Our real enemy is other Americans that we need to pit red states versus blue states. And so unfortunately, there is an audience for this. It'll be interesting to see whether and how much pushback there is to this kind of crazy rhetoric. Well, and Will, we've talked about it before, but they don't hate Russia.

They hate Americans. They don't attack Vladimir Putin. They attack the United States military. Senior senators say they wish American troops were more like Russian troops. You have them saying that helicopters are coming from Afghanistan that we used in the Afghanistan war, U.S. military helicopters to hunt down Americans here at home, that the FBI is going to kick down the doors of Americans who voted for Donald Trump and dragged them off to jail, that the IRS, a senior Republican senator, I think the most senior Republican senator, saying that IRS agents were going to go to his home state, kick in the doors with AR-15s and shoot and kill middle class Iowans. I could keep going down the list, but it's one after another after another. And it's all about

hating America. Now, why would they do this? It's baffling to me. I can't imagine it. This is the sort of thing that conservatives used to get angry about when the radical left would do it and would say America, love it or leave it. I'm not so sure why they hate America so much. But I do know this. It raises them a lot of money. So at the end of the day, just like Jim and Tammy Baker taking my grandmom's social

security checks in the 1980s, they take $25 here, $25 there, by preaching hate, by preaching conspiracy theories, by talking about how they are being hunted down by their own government. The NRA's

done it masterfully and cynically for the past 30 years, talking about jackbooted thugs. And so why? Why would they do it? Well, you look and see how much the craziest members of the House will raise and the small dollar donors from across the country that give them money. And it's it's all a grift. They're literally willing to burn the American flag with their rhetoric to raise twenty five dollars across the night. It's really just sick. And that you've just answered the question of why would Marjorie Taylor Greene call for

a civil war secession? Why would she scream liar at Joe Biden during the question of why would Marjorie Taylor Greene call for a civil war secession? Why would she scream liar at Joe Biden during the State of the Union? Because she is incentivized to do so. Everything in our system tells her to do so. She's in a district where she's never going to lose, where she's going to raise a ton of money if she builds her brand by yelling liar at the president of the United States. Of course, she's going to do that. So you take it all with a grain of salt. It is in the echo chamber and it works for her. But as Charlie says, it has moved all the way up in recent years to the White House. But Willie, again, the bigger point is and we bring this up again. It's exhausting. But this causes and Mitch McConnell knows this, this causes Republicans to keep losing elections.

I thought being an Atlanta Braves fan in the 1970s was like, you know, the most painful thing to be. Sports Illustrated had a picture of Atlanta Fulton County Stadium and the headline was Loserville, USA. Right? Loserville, USA. It's a Republican Party now. Lose in 2017. Lose in 2018. Lose in 2019.

Lose in 2020. Lose in 2021. Lose in 2022. If they keep this up, they're going to lose in 2024, Willie. And they just, Charlie, what's wrong with our old party? Why don't they get this? Do they not care

that they're going to keep losing until they start nominating adults? Okay, no, they don't. Look what just happened in Michigan. This is one of the key states. Right. And they had an election for chairman of the Republican Party. They elected an election denier, a woman who had been shellacked for secretary of state.

She lost by 14 points by more than six,000 votes, and yet she refuses to concede. And that was one of her selling points to be elected the new chairman of the Republican Party. She beat a guy who lost for attorney general by nine points, and yet he conceded the election, which was a sign that, well, he's weak and he doesn't fight. So look what's happening in some of these key swing states. The Republican Party has not only not learned the lessons, they are doubling down on election denying and crazy. Look what Republicans did to themselves in Pennsylvania. Now look what they're doing in Michigan. These are the key states in 2024 going forward. So to answer your question, Joe, there is no evidence whatsoever that this is a Republican Party that looked in the mirror and said, boy, we need to change things. In fact, they looked in the mirror and they said, yeah, we kind of like this.

Now let's go give us some more Kerry Lake. Give us some more Marjorie Taylor Greene. And talk about leaning into it when she declared victory and she said, I'm honored to take this position. The new chair of the Republican Party in Michigan, she was congratulated by Donald Trump, who just came out and said it, said she is a powerful and fearless election denier. That was what he called her. Apparently, a badge of honor. Charlie Sykes, thank you very much, as always. Good to see you. Coming up next, we'll speak with principal deputy national Security Advisor John Feiner about the extensive and secretive planning that went into President Biden's historic covert trip

into Ukraine yesterday. New details when Morning Joe comes right back. I wouldn't have thought Ukraine was weak and the West was divided. As you know, Mr. President, I said to you in the beginning, he's counting on us not sticking together. He was counting on the inability to keep NATO united. He was counting on us not to be able to bring in others on the side of Ukraine. He thought he could outlast us. I don't think he's thinking that right now. God knows what he's thinking. I don't think he's thinking that right now. God knows what he's thinking. I don't think he's thinking that. President Biden promising American solidarity with Ukraine in its war against Russia. Now we're learning details about that historic visit to Kiev and how it was

kept under close guard for months at the White House. Joining us now, Principal Deputy National Security Advisor John Feiner. John, thanks for being here this morning. Boy, we've started in the last 24 hours or so to get some of these details about how this came to be, what you all were working on for weeks and months, as it turns out. A flight on a plane that was not the usual Air Force One, quietly leaving Andrews Air Force Base, a 10- hour train ride, a motorcade without sirens. To the extent you can tell us about how this came together. Sure. Thanks. As you and my former colleague, Jen Psaki, know well, there is always an incredible amount of work that goes into any presidential trip. That said, this one had a significantly

higher degree of difficulty, in part because it had to be kept secret. So it was done by a much smaller group of people. And in part because usually you don't have to worry all that much about the physical security of the boss, of the president. But in this case, traveling into an active war zone where the U.S. does not control the ground, where the U.S. does not control the sky, where he was going to be going in over land, a very long journey over land each way. There were just elements of this that were unprecedented, required even more meticulous planning than these trips normally undergo. And, you know, we were quite relieved and quite gratified by how well things went on the ground.

We knew, I think, that it would send a strong message once the president arrived and that took care of itself. But we were also quite pleased that there were no hiccups that can happen when you're traveling in a place that is an active war zone. John, we know that President Biden has wanted to make this trip for a while. What made it OK now as opposed to? We did a very long, extensive security assessment. The intelligence community was involved. The Secret Service was involved. The Pentagon was involved. And at the end of the day, the trip was planned. The president was briefed on all the details over a period of weeks. And then on the Friday before he actually departed, he sat with

his cabinet, some members in the Oval Office, some members by phone. He got everybody's advice and decided ultimately to go ahead with the trip. John, congratulations on organizing this. We're left with the basic question that President Zelensky and President Biden both put, which is when will this war end? President Zelensky said 2023 is the year of victory. President Biden said as long as it takes, we're with you. Give us your assessment, the White House's assessment of what's going to happen this year in this battle. What is there, a Ukrainian counteroffensive coming?

What do you expect? So I think predictions in these situations is a bit of a fool's errand. So I'm not going to project too much. But what I can say is we are doing what we've been doing throughout this conflict. President Biden announced another half billion dollars in security assistance while he was in Kiev. That wasn't the main news of the trip. But it is important to continue to demonstrate that we are going to provide assistance going forward. The Ukrainians have said they fully intend to go on offense

in this conflict during the spring and the summer. We are getting them the resources we think they need to be able to do that effectively. But I'm not going to put a time limit on either our support or on the conflict. This is a very hard and difficult war. There will be more difficult days ahead. Yesterday, we think, was a very good day. There will be other days that are not so good. And we are going to be with the Ukrainians throughout. I don't usually quote someone like Senator McConnell in these situations, but I heard a quote that was played on this broadcast just a minute ago from him that said, we're

not going to put a time limit on how much we will continue to support Ukraine. I think that's exactly our mindset as well. So as you and I both know, the next day you wake up after a big trip and then there's still big questions about what's next and what are you giving us? And the big question is, what about these F-16s that the Ukrainians want, that people have been talking about? What kind of, why is that not something the United States wants to give at this point or provide? And what are the other types of military support that Tony Blinken, the Secretary of State, and others will be discussing in the weeks ahead? So we are discussing and will continue to discuss everything we think the Ukrainians may actually need on the battlefield in the immediate term.

Our approach has been the same throughout. At each phase, we have tried to provide them what we think they need to be successful during that particular phase of the conflict. And frankly, it has been successful. That was stingers and anti-tank weapons in the first phase. When it looked like the Russians may actually move on Kiev, the capital, the Ukrainians succeeded in repelling that with huge, in huge part, thanks to the weapons that we provided them. That the war evolved into more of an artillery war. We've been providing them significant numbers, hundreds of thousands of rounds of artillery for that phase of the conflict.

Now it is armored vehicles, tanks, armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles to allow them to go on this offensive that we know that they intend to conduct in the spring and the summer, and we will continue to assess and provide them what they need when there is the next phase. Jonathan Lemire. Hey, John, I want to get you to respond to what we just heard from Russia's President Vladimir Putin a short time ago. He delivered a speech there to a number of the elites in Moscow. More of the same doubling down on his claims as to why Russia's involved in this fight. But in particular, I want to get you he made some news here and says that Russia is going to be suspending its participation in the New START nuclear weapons treaty. Tell us

what the administration's response is to that from Putin. So look, Russia has not actually been in strict compliance with New START for quite some time. We think their announcement that what sounded like a suspension as opposed to a full withdrawal is, frankly, unfortunate and pretty irresponsible. But really the latest in a series of steps that shows that Russia is not taking its international obligations seriously, not taking international law seriously. This administration actually extended New START, one of the very first things that we did upon taking office after it had been negotiated for quite some time, but hadn't been completed by our predecessors. And we're going to be continuing to assess not just what the Russians say on this topic, but what they actually do. And for now, that's where we are. Any reaction to news that China's going to be putting out their own peace plan in a few days? Is that positive? Well, I think it really depends on what the plan actually says. So we'll look to hear the details.

It's one thing to say that you are for peace. Another thing to describe exactly how you're going to get from here to there in a conflict in which neither side appears exactly ready to get to the negotiating table. But what I will say about the Chinese is if they are actually interested in bringing about an end to the war, they should talk not just to the Russians, but actually to the Ukrainians. And if they are going to develop a plan, it should be done in consultation with Kiev, not just with Moscow. They seem to want to have it both ways. They're providing a lot of support, increasing support that we've said we're concerned about to the Russian government while saying

they're for the end of the war. I'd be interested in hearing more about how they plan to get there. And what are the consequences if China ramps up military support for Russia? I don't think we're going to flag in advance what we might do in this or that situation. We have said quite clearly that we think providing additional military support to Russia in this moment would not be constructive, would not be conducive to bring about the end of the conflict that they say they want. But for now, we're just going to keep watching this and see what they actually do. All right. Thanks so much, Principal Deputy National Security Advisor John Feiner. Quite a day yesterday. Thank you so much for being with us this morning.