Morning Joe - Morning Joe 2/21/25

Episode Date: February 21, 2025

Sen. Tillis breaks from Trump, calls Putin a cancer

I support President Trump and I believe that most of his policies on national security are right. I believe his instincts are pretty good. But what I'm telling you, whoever believes that there is any space for Vladimir Putin in the future of a stable globe, better go to Ukraine, they better go to Europe, they better invest the time to understand that this man is a cancer and the greatest threat to democracy in my lifetime. So ladies and gentlemen, when I tell you that Vladimir Putin is a liar, a murderer, and

a man responsible for ordering the systematic torture, kidnapping, and rape of innocent civilians, believe me, because the evidence is mile high. If you believe that Ukraine is a country, an ocean away, and not relevant to our national security, think again. The world is small. The world is watching. The strength of our alliances are on the line, and the future of democracy and the world is on the line. If we do anything less than defeat Vladimir Putin. That is Republican Senator Tom Tillis of North Carolina on the Senate floor yesterday actually saying the quiet part out loud, voicing the concerns of the Senate floor, on the Senate

floor that most of his fellow Republicans are whispering in the GOP cloakroom and what America's closest allies are voicing across Western democracies that stood by the United States of America in our fight against Nazism and Soviet communism. And also the same concerns being voiced among Donald Trump's most loyal defenders in the media. Most this morning are still asking what the Mr. Trump's cruel positioning against Ukraine is merely some misaligned, some disastrous opening bid in negotiations, are a drastic realignment of U.S. foreign policy that will be more dangerous, more immoral, and encourage more Russian invasions across eastern and central Europe.

Just ahead, we're gonna show you how Donald Trump's National Security Advisor is now trying to explain the president's position, which is exactly the opposite of what his has been when he was a member of Congress. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It's Friday, February 21st. With us, we have co-host of our fourth hour

and contributing writer at The Atlantic, Jonathan LaMere, Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist and associate writer at The Atlantic, Jonathan LaMere, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist and associate editor of The Washington Post, Eugene Robinson. We have writer at large for The New York Times, Elizabeth Buhmiller, managing editor at The Bulwark, Sam Stein, and also we have the host of Way Too Early, Ali Vatali. And you know, Gene, we're going to get we're going to get to Ukraine in a minute. But just I just think we shouldn't let what Tom Tillis said go by without a comment off

the top. What Senator Tillis said is actually publicly is what almost every Republican senator is saying privately. What what almost every Republican House member is saying privately that's on the Armed Services Committee or the Foreign Affairs Committee, they are horrified by what they're hearing. And now we're going to be reporting that the G7 has scrubbed their official communique to take out Russia as the aggressor in a war that Vladimir Putin clearly started. Yeah, absolutely. So the G7 cannot publish a joint statement with the phrase Russian aggression

in it. Look, this is insane, but you talk about it as well maybe it's an opening bid people are saying this is Trump being Trump or whatever I don't see why anyone should not believe him he likes for him and Putin he can't stand Vladimir Zelensky we know that you know how much of foreign policy, domestic policy, how much of life is just personal to Donald Trump. His own grievances, his own petty slights that he believes that he experienced. And I think he fully intends to follow through with this new, completely un-American disastrous word ballsy that he has outlined in the last few days. Yeah, and he's made a deeply personal call, and Zelensky a modestly successful comedian

calling for new elections in Ukraine, demanding half of their minerals, their deal. We did hear Secretary of State Rubio closed doors to try to reassure Europeans that maybe us policy not changing as much as they're positioning publicly but that's basically Joe that has has left allies adversaries like sort of bill Wilder but at the end of the day this is Donald Trump's decision and let's remember it's very reminiscent of the first term where Trump publicly very friendly towards Putin but the administration and the Congress at times

took steps to punish Russia. We'll have to see if that happens around this time too. Certainly, Senator Tillis breaking with the White House yesterday, saying publicly what so many of his colleagues are saying privately. Others have been very much more modest in their criticism, saying they disagree with the idea that Putin is a good guy, but

not willing to actually criticize Trump for what he's saying. We're going to have to see this time, though, if the guardrails hold, where this time Trump pushes through and says, look, this is our new approach to Moscow and Europe. And again, we really had a tell of two administrations in the first term. It's so important for people to remember that in the first administration, you have Donald Trump saying things like he said at the Helsinki press conference in 2018 in response to your question that he trusted Vladimir Putin more than his own people that he put in to run the intel community.

At the same time, his vice president was going to Western Europe delivering speeches that were Reagan-esque, anti-Soviet, anti-Russian, anti-Russian aggression. You of course also had Republicans in the Senate at the same time when Donald Trump was saying things that caused grave concerns among many Republicans. They're passing the toughest sanctions that had ever been passed on Russia. So we'll see if this is an opening bid. We'll see if if you in fact have Russians having to actually step up and make sacrifices at the negotiating table if they want it to end, or whether this is, again, a radical

new step, a radical new direction for the United States foreign policy. Regardless, the cost, the impact of that on our foreign policy, even if it's reeled back in in the next week, and there's no reason to believe it would be, is incalculable and will once again have our allies, our closest allies, our most important allies asking the question, can we trust the United States of America? Elizabeth, I just, again, one other thing too that I don't think people are underlining enough, I know we've talked about it a little bit on this show, but all things are personal with Donald Trump. Foreign policy is personal with Donald Trump. If he decides that he likes the most bloodthirsty dictator on earth in North Korea

and they write love letters. He calls them love letters. Everything is personal and it's so important to remember how Donald Trump's relationship with Zelensky began. It began in July of 2019 when he made the quote perfect phone call, as he said, where, you know, he was trying to shake down Zelensky to dig up dirt on his political rival, Joe Biden and his family. Well, he was in the middle of a presidential campaign and basically saying, you can get your $400 million that Congress has already appropriated, but before you do, I need you to dig up dirt on Joe Biden.

Zelensky refused to do that. And if people want to understand why he loads Zelensky so much, that's a good place to start. Yes, and then, of course, Zelensky made the great mistake of actually saying the truth, which is that Donald Trump was in a web of disinformation. And you know, I'm sure Trump just was shocked that Zelensky had—it was the most critical thing that Zelensky has ever said of Trump in public.

And so, then you got the backlash from Trump saying that Zelensky basically started the war. I think it's interesting, especially Marco Rubio's role here, though, that he is—what he was saying to the Europeans on a call after Trump sidled up to Putin was that, you know, keep calm. This is not a major change in the administration's policy. Of course it is. And then, of course, it is against what Rubio himself, he's very, very—he's a big Russia hawk. So it's—if you're a European and you're seeing this,

you hear on one hand from the commander in chief that we're gonna be closer to Russia, on the other hand, you hear from the secretary of state, pay no attention, you're in a state of confusion. And I can tell you, most of Europeans are going to pay attention to what the president is saying and not what the secretary of state is saying. Yeah, one diplomat from Europe telling me already damage already been done in terms of relations and certainly all signs suggest this will be a new policy from the United States. Much

more on Ukraine ahead but now let's turn to matters here at home. A federal judge has ruled that the Trump administration can move ahead with plans to significantly reduce the federal workforce. The lawsuit was brought by a group of labor unions seeking to block the administration from carrying out mass layoffs at federal agencies. In his ruling, the judge overseeing the case explained that Trump's onslaught of executive actions have, quote, caused disruption and even chaos in widespread quarters of American society, but added that federal court was not the appropriate venue for the lawsuit.

Meanwhile, more than 200 employees at the Transportation Security Administration were fired this week as part of the Trump administration's sweeping layoffs. The TSA confirms that 243 probationary employees who had been either hired or promoted within the year have now been terminated. In a statement, a TSA spokesperson wrote in part this, under President Trump's leadership, TSA terminated personnel due to performance and conduct issues during their probationary period. There's more.

The IRS has also now begun firing employees. Roughly 7,000 workers in Washington, D.C. and elsewhere across the country have been let go. The layoffs, which come of course in the middle of tax season, affect probationary employees with roughly one year or less of service at the agency. The ranking member of the Senate Finance Committee, Ron Wyden, said yesterday that delay-off's already having an impact. I can tell you it's already taking a significant toll. I'm particularly concerned about refunds. As the ranking Democrat on the Senate Finance Committee, we focus on services to taxpayers,

and I'm very concerned about the possible delay in refunds. I mean, you know, Ali, anybody that's ever dealt with the IRS and understanding, calling them for any reason understands that most of those workers there have such a backlog. It takes so long to get in touch with agents because they just don't have enough workers. They're also working with data and they're working on computers that in many cases are decades old. Their technology is absolutely horrific. And at the end of the day, of course, you know, maybe politicians want to paint the IRS as the bad guys and because they audited Donald Trump too much, Donald Trump would

say, in the end of the day, it is working Americans trying to get their refund. It's middle class Americans trying to get the refunds they can't afford. The lawyers are whatever millionaires and billionaires can afford to take care of their problems with the IRS. It's going to be working class and middle class taxpayers who are going to be impacted by this. And you can go down the line, whether you look at the cuts at TSA, really cutting TSA, that's going to make lines longer for Americans waiting to go to travel back home,

to visit their families, to visit their loved ones, to work, weekend and wake out. All of these cuts, again, come from a small part of America's budget, about 10% of America's budget. All of these cuts are going to cause a disproportionate impact with working Americans, with people, again, that can't afford lawyers or accountants. And, you know, especially when you start talking about messing with safety of flying, I mean, it's just crazy. So, I mean, this sort of shoot first politically, ask questions later politically. So, I think it really makes life more difficult and more dangerous for the Americans

who can afford it the least. And of course, that's the concern that Democrats especially are trying to highlight here, the fact that these are not cuts that have no impact. They are cuts at the IRS. We will start hearing those rolling stories of the backlogs of the folks who are not able to get their tax refunds in a timely fashion we're at the high when that it were in the stretch of tax season right now we're going to get to the end of it and then we'll start

hearing those but you're right to bring up the transportation safety authority you're right to bring up matters at the fa we talked about the impacts of all of these cuts across the NIH the impact of USA ID being lost about the impacts of all of these cuts across the NIH, the impact of USAID being lost on the world stage. All of these things have long tails and long threads. And I think what's so notable is my sources have told me that lawmakers have spent time at home this week hearing from their constituents about it. And now we're starting to see it actually on camera as reporters go to some of these town halls, including in places like Georgia where I'll bring you into this next story Republican lawmaker Rich McCormick faced an angry crowd during a town hall in his

Georgia district last night. Many of his constituents last lashed out at him for his support of those massive federal layoffs and budget cuts by the Trump administration and Elon Musk's doge the event was held about 20 miles from CDC headquarters where the Trump administration removed 1,300 employees so far. Atlanta Journal-Constitution reporter and NBC News contributor Greg Blustein attended the town hall and captured these events as they unfolded. In one instance, an attendee questioned why the conservative party was taking such a sloppy approach to the situation.

Watch. CDC workers working on the bird flu being fired by Doge and then having to be rehired when someone realizes, oh gosh, we need those people. Why is a supposedly conservative party taking such a radical and extremist and sloppy approach to this. A lot of the work they do is duplicitous with a, once again, one of the problems we have, I happen to be a doctor, I know a few things, if we continue to grow the size of government and we can't afford it, it's going to have shortfalls in your Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and other things that we can't afford guys.

We have to make some decisions. I understand. Trying to do more is less. That's reasonable. What's not reasonable is taking this chainsaw approach, which they obviously admit when they fired these people and then decided, oh, we fired the wrong people. We've got to bring them back in. Why is this being jammed down the pipe so rushed and sloppily?

So a chainsaw approach notable given what we saw at CPAC where Elon Musk literally brought a chainsaw on stage. But look, you can see the crowd there clapping for that attendees question. And here's how McCormick then responded before the crowd interrupted him. I understand that when you say you have this many employees that you have to cut, that organization decides who they're going to cut. Now they may not. They are not given any numbers.

Did you catch that last part? A resident said it was actually Elon Musk that's making the decisions when it comes to job cuts. One attendee told the lawmaker he'd done a disservice and failed to stand up for his constituents. Well, no, McCormick handily won reelection last year. He won by 64.9% of the vote in this district in a state that President Trump flipped

after narrowly losing it to Joe Biden in 2020. So Joe, it's not like he's in some blue sea, he's in his home district that handily reelected him. And I will say, I remember back when we actually shut down the government to try to negotiate, to balance a budget. That's what our town hall meetings started looking like quickly in the most conservative districts across America. And Gene, I just have to correct the congressman here because I'm afraid it's a line that they've

been given, maybe by the Republican Party to say, that's just not accurate, where he's talking about we have to cut NIH research, we have to cut air safety, we have to cut food safety, we have to cut nuclear safety, we have to do all of these other things or else, oh my gosh, you're not going to get your Medicare and Social Security checks. Well, the fact is, none of this money is going to touch on that. As I've said time and again, we're $36 trillion in debt. That $36 trillion is driven by Pentagon spending, by massive tax cuts. It's driven by Medicare, it's driven by Medicaid, it's

driven by interest on the debt. Our interest on the debt is larger than any of these things that they're talking about cutting right now and what are they doing at the same time he says we have to make choices? They are about to pass the biggest tax cuts ever for billionaires and for millionaires. That's the choice they've made. This is not about protecting Medicare or Medicaid or Social Security. This is about protecting tax cuts for billionaires and that's not ideological. Just look at what the CBO is saying. Just look at what the budget office is saying, Gene.

So they're there and he said, oh, I'm trying to protect your Medicare. That's why we're slashing medical research. We're trying to protect your social security. That's why we're slashing air safety. We're trying to protect the food that you eat and the air that you breathe and the water the water that you drink Because we're trying to protect your Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security No, no, that's not what they're trying to do. They're trying to clear the clear all of This good work this work that Americans need middle-class Americans like the people at that town hall meeting need

for tax cuts for the richest Americans. That's exactly what they're clearing the decks for and this is essentially in the context of the federal government this is a show, this is a performance. You could cut every non-military federal government employee, every one of them, and you'd save something like 3% of the budget. So it is ridiculous, yet they are setting the stage for these massive tax cuts that are only going to swell the deficit. And any way you look at it, the most favorable sort of figures

to the administration of the outcome of this is at least three or $4 trillion added to the debt over the course of a few years. And that's the truth. So let's right now bring in the aforementioned Greg Blustein who was there last night in Georgia, shot the video we just saw. Greg, good to see you.

Thanks for joining us this morning. Good reporting. So tell us more about the scene in that town hall and the mood from these constituents as noted in a pretty safe Republican district talking about the Trump-Musk cuts. Yeah, in a pretty safe Republican district, talking about the Trump-Musk cuts. Yeah, this is a safe Republican district. And Richard McCormick won with about 2 thirds of the vote

just last year. But there's been a lot of talk about how there hasn't been the same amount of Democratic outrage that there was at this point in Donald Trump's first term. This is the first moment where I kind of really felt it on the ground here in Georgia. You know, there, there, there was a sense of bubbling outrage that really reminded me some of the Tea Party backlash we saw, you know, 15 years ago or so at town hall meetings targeting Democrats and more moderate, more mainstream Republicans. Rich

McCormick is not a, you know, your traditional MAGA firebrand. He's no Marjorie Taylor Greene here in Georgia. He does sit next door to her district in a sense, but he is a Trump supporter. He ended up endorsing Ron DeSantis last year, but wound up in Trump's camp. And like every other major prominent Republican in Georgia, is very aligned with Donald Trump's platform and agenda.

So here you saw him struggling at times throughout this hour-long meeting where he was jeered, where he was booed. There was some mild applause here and there, but for the most part, this was a bubbling outrage directed at him, you know, holding him accountable for Donald Trump's first steps. Hey, Greg, it's Sam Stein.

I'm kind of curious from your surveying of the crowd, how much anger, because obviously there was palpable anger there, but how much anger was directed at Donald Trump and how much anger was directed at Elon Musk? I ask because there is a distinction that I'm picking up, especially in these constituent letters that are going out to congressmen who are then responding saying, well, I'm protecting against Elon Musk, but they don't say the same thing with respect to Donald Trump. So I'm wondering if there is a distinction

in how the crowd is reacting, and if you think it matters politically. Yeah, first, I do think it matters politically, and for Democrats in particular, it's been easier here in Georgia, at least, to attack Elon Musk than Donald Trump, because Donald Trump won the state. And there's also a sense of overwhelmed fatigue

over Donald Trump where Elon Musk is newer to the scene. And there was a lot of that backlash focused on Elon Musk. When the Doge questions came up, that was where there was some of the loudest uproar, especially over Rich McCormick's answers where he was saying, well, it's up to the agencies to decide who to cut instead of Elon Musk. And where we know there's a lack of transparency there, there's a lot of clouds over how far the extent of these cuts have gone. And particularly when it comes to Georgia, right? In some sense, a lot of these cuts

have been more ephemeral. They have not really touched our home state. But when last week, when the CDC ended up cutting about 1,000 or so employees in the heart of Atlanta, that was something that, A, Democrats rallied around, but B, also we're seeing general voters. You know, some of the folks who were in that room, you know, were not engaged in the election last year and they're now getting up to speed. I mean, again, we're talking, show that picture of Elon Musk again, if you will. I mean, he might as well just send that to Democrats for the 2026 campaign, where he's holding up a chainsaw and very proud that working Americans are actually having their medical research cut. Working Americans

are actually having CDC cut with a possibility of a major epidemic sweeping across the country where TSA is getting cut, so lines to visit their family members longer, possibly less safe, getting on airplanes, air safety also being cut. You know, again, I know of what I speak, Elizabeth, because, you know, in 94 when I campaigned, I campaigned with a lot of people, and they were always talking, I was always talking about we got to balance the budget. We got to pay down the debt. Yes, go Joe, go! We got to do this, we got to do that. The second we started to do that, the people that were out on the front lines were going, wait, what are you

doing? You do realize that when you cut this, the Naval Air Museum is going to be shut down for three months. You do understand when you cut that, the VA benefits aren't going to be flowing the same way. You know understand when you cut that the VA benefits aren't going to be flowing the same way. You know I had a guy yesterday come up to me and say that his access to the VA hospital and the treatment that he had is going in in South Florida is now at risk and he's getting letters. This is a sort of thing that again you can talk generally about balancing the budget. You can talk generally about

reducing the workforce and again we're talking about from what amounts to about nine ten percent of the budget but when those cuts that general idea turns into specific cuts that impact working Americans and middle-class Americans, boy, you have scenes like the congressman had last night and I suspect we'll start seeing much like we did in 2009 when Barack Obama started to roll out the possibility that Americans may not be able to visit their own doctor anymore if the ACA passed. Yes, and I actually that that photograph of Elon Musk with the chainsaw and the

hat and the sunglasses, that's political, that's a political problem for for the administration. But I just wanted to ask Greg if he's still on. Is Greg still on? Yes. About how much you alluded to this. This meeting was very close to the CDC and how was that must be a big factor in the in the emotions in that area because of it's an employer and also I'm sure it's it's it's they're very proud to have a close by. Tell me about that. I mean, that must have been a good factor. Exactly, it's one of the jewels of Georgia, right? And it's something that brings these cuts home

to residents here. Again, it seems distant sometimes when you hear about federal workers elsewhere in the country, especially in Washington being cut, but when about a thousand CDC employees were cut over the weekend, right? With emails and Zoom calls. And I've talked to some a thousand CDC employees were cut over the weekend right with with emails and zoom calls and I've talked to some of those employees who are cut and others who fear that they're next who just described you know this somber awful reality for them right now

these are people who've dedicated their lives to public health and public service and they were just cut like that in a flash high- paying jobs that are gonna be hard to replicate in the private sector or in any other public sector. So it really hit. No, finish up Greg. Oh, I just said it really, really hit home. And you're seeing Republicans struggle here in Georgia. Governor Kemp the other day said,

hey, sometimes there needs to be some right sizing in the federal government. And there was already a lot of backlash here in Georgia, Governor Kemp the other day said, hey, sometimes, you know, there needs to be some right sizing in the federal government. And there's already a lot of backlash here in Georgia to that statement as well. All right. Political reporter for the Atlanta Journal Constitution, Greg Bluesting. Thank you so much. I think what stuck out to me was the fact that constituents who obviously want government rights sized and obviously want a more efficient government are talking about the reckless, radical, sloppy is the word, sloppy way this is being done, being done in a way that no business would do, no effective CEO would do, where you go in and cut first and ask questions later.

And in so doing, getting rid of some of your most qualified, hardest workers. It's often said that government's not a meritocracy. Well, this is actually proving that, but not in the way that Elon Musk and Donald Trump wanted it to be proven. They're getting rid of some of their best workers, some of their most qualified people, people that actually run some of the most important functions at agencies, and then having to desperately call some and try to get them back at work. As a member of Congress said on our show a few days ago, measure twice, cut once. Still ahead on Morning Joe, we'll get to Sam's new reporting with the title,

The Doge Brain Drain Has Begun. Also ahead, we're going to get a live report from Berlin. It's German voters prepare to elect a new government that will be central in Europe's response to Donald Trump's policies on the world stage. This is going to be a remarkable, remarkable election this weekend. And we're going to see where Germany goes, which could actually lead the way to where France and so much of Europe follows. You're watching Morning Joe, we're back in 90 seconds. Welcome back.

Beautiful shot of the White House, the Washington Monument beyond, as the sun coming up here in Washington, a little after 630 a.m. here on the East Coast. Sam, as mentioned, your latest article for the bulwark is titled, The Doge Brain Drain Has Begun. And in it, you write this in part, in the first month of the second Trump administration, the world's richest man, under-informed, chronically online, and staffed by a country of teenage and 20-something, former engineering interns, has been moving at warp speed to reshape, reduce, and even dismantle the United States government. But while Musk's rampage has been feverishly covered, the scope

of its impact remains largely underappreciated. Experts say it can't be measured in weeks or months or even in government services affected. Rather, it will be felt over the span of decades and defined in metrics like intellectual talent lost. Dozens of interviews with top researchers revealed a persistent, overbearing fear that the United States is at the starting point of a massive brain drain. Young researchers hoping to find new treatment for cancer, dementia, or other diseases may find that with government funding curtailed, they may never get the opportunity.

Areas of scientific investigation will be cut off as the Trump administration discourages or outright prohibits funding for certain fields of research. And Sam, I would give you credit. You've been really good at highlighting the impact of a lot of these cuts, doing so on your Twitter, X account, but also putting this piece together. So talk to us about the big picture here, not just the immediate. We just spent last segment talking about how there's going to be immediate impacts, painful impacts for a lot of people, red and blue state residents alike.

But the larger picture, how this is fundamentally reshaped what the United States does. Well, remind me first, where do I venmo you for reading that? How much do I owe you? It's a reasonable fee. We'll talk after we're done. Look, we spent the last segment talking about all these cuts. And we talked about it in the context of the government

services that will be rendered obsolete or inoperable. And really the story of the first month of the Trump administration is that, but also the lives that are actually going to be upended. So when you're talking about probationary employees that were probationary, it has a bad connotation. What it really means is people who are just starting out in their government jobs, but doesn't necessarily mean just young people, right? You could be switching to a new job and you've just started out there.

And these people tend to be starting their careers, having young families, entering fields of research for which there are not really comparable private enterprise opportunities. And that is predominantly true in the fields of science. And so what happened is early on the NIH specifically put a cap on indirect costs. And indirect costs are those administrative costs that go into funding research, buildings, you know, scientific equipment, things like that. And when that happened, something really remarkable took place. A number of different universities and institutions

said, oh my god, we're about to lose hundreds of millions of dollars, and one, or two, specifically, that we can no longer hire graduate assistant researchers. Now think about that. People who you really need to come in, staff you, and grow as scientists, they were no longer able to get those opportunities at different research institutions. What does that mean for us as a society?

It means a whole generation of young scientists, people who will make advancements in critical medical fields, won't actually be able to take that first step. And so when you talk to scientists around the country, researchers around the country, this is what shocks them. It's this idea that we are actually taking our best and brightest and saying, no, no, no, we're not going to support you. You have to look elsewhere. Now, some might say, well, okay, sure, there's other opportunities, right?

Why not go to the private sector? And that just doesn't work because the private sector is consumed with funding things that will make a profit. And so long-term, high-risk, but very important research will not be done by private sector companies. It has to be done by the government. And then they say, well, why not go into another field? Well, no, they've devoted themselves to this field.

So the only real opportunities people have is to either leave government, leave science, or go overseas. And that's already what's happening. Yeah. You know, I can't emphasize enough the role that these universities, these institutions play in basic research, in human beings learning stuff that we didn't know about the human body, about the universe, that has absolutely

no immediate application, but that 10 years from now, 20 years from now, creates the information revolution. Oh, absolutely. I mean, this is the way it works. And I've been in touch with some people I know at universities that are trying to deal with this cut, and they are struggling as hard as they can to be able to continue the way they...and they just can't figure it out. They can't figure it out.

No. And so either you stop hiring graduate researchers assistants, or you stop hiring faculties, or you stop doing the research entirely. And to your point, Gene, even the private sector, these companies that do biomedical research, they are dependent on NIH-funded research to do their own research. And so when you cut off the NIH spigot like this, it has profound impacts. And frankly, let's be honest, a lot of what we fund for the NIH doesn't end up working out.

But that's the point, is that you take as many shots as you can, because at some point you will create the most important breakthrough scientifically. And the government can do that process of trial and error. We'll do it in a way that our private sector won't. Yeah, Joe, this is something, it's really important conversation. There are going to be impacts short and long term. Well, there are. And you know, so many people, and they, you know, maybe some people who supported Donald

Trump, maybe some people who were supporting these cuts, the slashing of the funding for some of this research for universities, and maybe thinking, oh, this is great, Harvard, Yale, Stanford, basically all the colleges that JD Vance and other leaders of the MAGA movement went to, they'll be cut first. The fact is, the disproportionate cuts, the cuts where there won't be like, you know, billions of dollars flooding in from donors, will come at places like my alma mater, University of Alabama. So much of University of Alabama's explosive growth

over the years. And it's just been explosive growth. I go back and I don't even recognize the college. It's remarkable what's happened, Sam, over the past decade, over the past 20 years there. I will say in part because of Richard Shelby and other Democratic senators that have worked really hard to make Alabama top notch, whether it's in engineering,

whether it's in medical research, that's going. And suddenly you have people like Katie Britt, who was all in line for Donald Trump, and all in line for these cuts, and all in line for those suddenly understanding that the largest employer in Alabama is now at risk. Because again, of the indiscriminate cuts that will end up hurting Harvard, hurting Yale, but also hurting University of Alabama, Indiana, you name it, state schools especially, Iowa, Wisconsin, they will be disproportionately impacted by these cuts. Yeah, just very quickly, you're 100% right.

The anecdote I talked about, about the university that was going to start restricting hiring graduate research assistants, that was the University of Iowa. University of Iowa. It wasn't Yale, it wasn't Harvard, it wasn't Stanford. It was University of Iowa. This is happening at state schools, every state school across the country. All right. German voters are set this weekend to head to the polls for their federal elections there.

Voters are going to choose their representatives in parliament and those elected will then vote for a new chancellor of Germany. For that role, there are four major candidates that spread the entire political spectrum of the country. Let's bring in right now from Berlin, NBC News international correspondent, Raph Sanchez. Raph, this is easily the most watched European election at least since France's a few years ago when there were great fears at Le Pen and and her far-right party was going to do well. Right now it looks like the center-right party may be doing maybe be doing okay, the Christian Democrats, but ADF not far behind. Tell us all about it. Yeah, Joe, so at first glance, this very much looks like a normal election in Germany. You have

an unpopular government here. It's led by the center left. It's presiding over a bad economy. Germany's been in recession for two years. And it looks like the voters are gonna chuck them out and they're gonna replace them with a government led by the center right. The CDU, Angela Merkel's old party, a traditional transatlantic party. They are supporters of Ukraine.

But Joe, what is not normal is that the far right is absolutely surging in a way we have not seen since the defeat of the Nazis in the Second World War. The polls show the alternative for Germany known as the AFD likely to win the second largest number of seats in Parliament to be the largest opposition party and that is sending shockwaves absolutely through this country. Now the AFD is running on a platform of populism that will sound pretty familiar. They are talking about making Germany great again, talking about restoring manufacturing, talking about cutting

immigration. That is a message that is resonating here especially in the wake of several recent attacks committed by asylum seekers, committed by migrants, one of them just a week ago in Munich. What the AFD does have though, Joe, is an unusual advantage. The explicit support of Elon Musk, the world's richest man, a very prominent figure in the Trump administration, as you have just been discussing. He has openly endorsed the AFD. He has spoken at one of their conferences and he has been boosting the party all across his social media platform X. Now Joe, you will of course recognize where we are here in Berlin this morning. We are at the iconic Brandenburg Gate. That is where President Reagan gave that famous speech.

Mr. Gorbachev tear down this wall. Last week, Vice President Vance, another Republican, was here in Germany at the Munich Security Conference. And he gave a speech about tearing down a wall. He said that Germany's mainstream parties needed to abandon the principle known as the firewall. The firewall is the idea that the parties of the center left parties the center right do not cooperate with the far right given this country's

history of nazism. That was a speech that absolutely stunned mainstream Germany but it was music to the ears of the AFD. They basically interpreted it as a stamp of legitimacy directly from the White House, a message from the Trump administration to They basically interpreted it as a stamp of legitimacy directly from the White House, a message from the Trump administration to German voters that it was OK to vote for the far right. And we spoke to a parliamentary candidate for the AFD. I want you to take a listen to what she told us about Vance's speech. It allows them to think what they actually feel. I think they're—it just opened a door.

I don't think it influenced anybody, but I think—I do think that it allowed a mind shift maybe or just an—I think people are now—they feel free to actually vote for what they always wanted to vote for. So you heard her there basically saying the vice president Bantz gave German voters a permission structure to vote for the far right. The vice president also met with the leader of the AFD while he was here in Germany. She's kind of an interesting figure. Her name is Alice Weidel.

She talks about traditional family values. She talks about cutting immigration. She is actually also married to a woman, that woman born in Sri Lanka. So this is not in some ways a traditional figure of the hard right. Joe, Germans go to the polls here on Sunday. We expect to get exit polls around noon Eastern and the whole world will really be watching. Jeff. All right, NBC's Raf Sanchez. Thank you so much. Greatly appreciate it. And just understand what's happening in Europe right now. It's actually something that we've been talking about on this show for a very long time. After the Syrian civil war and the refugee crisis, there were a lot of countries, including Germany,

that took a lot of immigrants in. And while the United States has, throughout the years, absorbed immigrants very well, better than most countries, it has caused a real political backlash. As it has, Donald Trump has made it in the United States recently, but certainly has in France, in Germany and other countries. And so that's what you're seeing there as well. Elizabeth, though, it does raise the question, though, whether American politicians get involved in German politics in such an aggressive way, actually ends up helping the AFD, whether it ends up helping the far-right parties there or whether it ends up hurting them.

You look at what's happening in Canada. Before Donald Trump got elected, conservatives were up by 20-plus points. Now, it's pretty much deadlocked in Canada, because Canadians are pushing back against Donald Trump and others, sort of, you know, coming in and trying to tilt the election. I'm wondering if that has an impact in Germany and other countries as well. Well, I think we heard from the member of the AfD who said that this gave the Germans a permission structure to vote for the AfD, which is stunning. I mean, you know, the United States is not supposed to get involved in other countries'

elections, for starters. But secondly, to get involved in this way is—I don't know what to say. My mother grew up in Nazi-occupied Denmark. So this is something that was part of my growing up about the German occupation of Denmark. And it's stunning to see how well the AfD is doing in Germany now, obviously, as a result of the immigration, of the poor economy. This is what happens. But it's still quite stunning.

And they obviously feel greatly empowered by the United States and by Elon Musk, who we saw was looming large over there like an Oz like figure at one of their conventions or one of their gatherings. So and I obviously this was completely shocking to the Europeans again with I've spoken to Europeans this week in Washington who are stunned by what what the Vice President did and quite taken aback. Well, and we will see Gene Robinson again, whether that has a positive impact or not. I will say again, France is not Germany. Both countries would tell you that many times over,

but I will say we have heard the last two elections that Le Pen was going to give Macron a run for his money. Macron was extraordinarily unpopular. The backlash though against Le Pen ended up, instead of the race being 50-50 or 51-49, Macron ended up at 58-59% in both of the races he had against Le Pen. We don't know what's going to happen here. The far right could actually shock everybody. We could also be surprised in the other direction. I guess what I'm saying is whenever these far right wing parties are involved, nobody

exactly knows what voters are going to do when they go into the booth. And certainly after the United States, the vice president and Elon Musk have both weighed in in such a heavy, heavy way. I'm not so sure that Germans are Canadians or the French or anybody will take that sort of lying down. I'm not sure they will because they have that memory that Elizabeth talked about of World War II. And so heading, you know, full steam toward the far right, it seems, we'll see. We'll see. What strikes me is how unstable politics are in Europe, across Europe right now.

That is a good situation for Vladimir Putin. It's a bad situation for Ukraine. I think it's a bad situation for Ukraine, I think it's a bad situation for the world. And we'll be watching the results of those elections out of Germany. New York Times writer at large Elizabeth Mueller and the Bullark Sam Stein. Thank you both for being here this morning. Coming up next, Canada tops Team USA on the ice to claim the four nations face off title.

What a game this was, but the political rivalry between the two countries continues. Heats up. We'll show you the very snarky response from Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. Plus. Let me ask you, is there anybody like our tiger? How are you?

He's a great. Would you want to just say a couple of words, tiger? He doesn't. He's much more comfortable. Tiger! Tiger! Tiger! I was in the room for that yesterday. We'll explain what Tiger Woods was doing at the White House and what it means for the proposed merger between the PGA Tour

and the Saudi-funded Live Golf. Pablo Torre joins us to talk about all of that and the latest out of MLB spring training mercifully baseball is back. Morning Joe, back on. Back time now for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. The major stock indexes slid yesterday after Walmart announced a weak earnings forecast. The major retailer is predicting sales will only grow about three to four percent this year, which is below the five percent investors were hoping for. Officials say this may be because of uncertainties related to consumer behavior and global economic and geopolitical conditions.

Those right here at home. Meanwhile, the Vatican says that Pope Francis is improving and now even doing some work, the pope was hospitalized last week for double pneumonia. The Vatican released an update this morning saying that the 88 year old Pontiff slept through the night, ate breakfast, took some calls, and moved around his hospital room. Good news there. And the U.S. Postal Service is honoring the life and legacy of the actress Betty White and doing so with a new stamp. The collectible forever stamp will be released on March 27th. White, often referred to as the first lady of television had a career in the entertainment industry that spanned more than 60 years.

Betty White passed away in 2021. She was 99 years old.