Morning Joe - Morning Joe 2/27/24

Episode Date: February 27, 2024

Protesters plan to vote 'uncommitted' in MI primary

You seem to have a lot of fun with it. You've co-opted. You've co-opted Dark Brandon. This is a yard sign. And do you enjoy playing around with the Dark Brandon meme? No, I resent the hell out of it. Okay. Now, my favorite one recently is there are 18% of Americans,

according to recent polling, have believed that you and Taylor Swift are actually working in cahoots. And after the Kansas City Chiefs won the Super Bowl, you posted this on social media and wrote... You wrote, just like we drew it up Now can you I have you on the hot spot here

Can you confirm or deny That there is an active conspiracy Between you and Ms. Swift Where are you getting this information? It's classified It's classified information? That's classified information You won't share it with us?

But I will tell you She did endorse me in 2020 She did You might be wondering You might be wondering, you might be wondering, you think it might come around again? I told you it's class. OK, President Biden embracing the dark Brandon meme on late night with Seth Meyers. It was his first appearance on the show in 10 years. Biden was a guest as vice president on Seth's first episode as a host. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It's Tuesday, February 27th. How did he do, Willie?

Pretty well, I think. I mean, he was in this building, had Midtown locked up. I know that. Then they headed downstairs for some ice cream on the ground floor of our building, where, as we'll see in a a minute the president of the United States answered very serious questions about Israel, for example, while licking an ice cream cone. I know. I was like, it's melting. This is weird. But he got asked the question. He answered the question. It was really strange. Yeah, really strange. Asking these important questions, eating ice, ice cream cones.

It's reminds me of our ill-fated Christmas special when we were sitting in Christmas clothes on our last show before Christmas. Christmas clothes? Donald Trump called in talking about Christmas pajamas. Pajamas. Christmas pajamas. And Donald Trump called in talking about nuclear war. You know, sort of ill-fated. You've got your Star Wars Christmas special. You've got your Morning Joe Christmas special.

Both of them. Willie, you were off that day. Yeah, we did that. Were you off that? I think I missed that somehow. I don't know where it was. We did way too early in our pajamas. It's a long story, and it's worth not looking back into.

Well, it's actually a long holiday tradition for us. I mean, we've been doing it since the Andrew sisters actually helped us debut in 1946. Year after the war, I think, Willie, you were out, like, you know, measuring your house in Levittown. It's a long story, but, yeah, we may have to do that again. I think we need a Christmas Eve special. No, we do. Okay. All right.

Along with Joe, Willie, and me, we have the host of Way Too Early and White House Bureau Chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire. Waist down, he's in his pajamas. Pulitzer Prize winning columnist of the Washington Post and MSNBC political analyst. Eugene Robinson is here and former chair of the Republican National Committee and co-host of MSNBC's The Weekend.

Michael Steele. They've been educating me and former senior aide to both the Biden and the Clinton campaigns, Adrian Elrod, on being street smart, which we have discovered we're not. That's all I'm going to say. We are not. You should not base where you live on Louis Vuitton. Oh, damn it. Okay. Darn. All right. Let's get right to the news. Today is primary day in Michigan. And for the Republicans, today's results will determine

only 16 of Michigan's 55 delegates. The 39 others will be decided Saturday during a state party convention. But there will be competing conventions this weekend because of a leadership dispute within the GOP. Christina Caramo, an election denier and Donald Trump supporter, was removed as chairwoman last month following a vote by state party committee members. She has refused to accept the results and still claims to be the party's leader. Is this how this doesn't work? Hold on a second. Are you saying that an election denier denied her own election results?

What a shock. I mean, this is Gene Robinson. This is such a sign of things to come. It is. I think, you know, sometimes you need to step back, right? Sometimes you need to step back and you go, why are things happening the way they are? And I know we've all seen op-eds talking about this through the years. But the Republicans have lost seven of the last

eight presidential elections when it comes to popular vote. They've been able, they figured out in 16 how to win and just barely, and they did it through the electoral college. But, you know, Gene, not to get too deep in it here, but I'm going to get deep in it here because it's just kind of what I do. If you take away Ralph Nader in 2000 and you take away Jill Stein in 2016, get this, a Republican, a Republican would not have been elected president this century. And that's, of course, assuming Bush doesn't run in 2004 when reelection. But but the Republicans have lost the country. They've lost. You know, they've won one. This is amazing. Since 1992, Republicans have won the popular vote one time. So what do you do

if you know you're going to lose, that you've lost the country? You're not going to change anything. You're just going to keep denying elections, and they're trying to perfect it now. I know. Yeah. Well, the first thing you do is you gerrymander the hell out of everything, right, to try to sort of build in an advantage. And you put your thumb on the scale in every way you can, which the Republican Party did, and then you still lose. So the only recourse after that is just to say, no, it didn't happen. I didn't lose. I actually won, even though you lost.

And it is incredible that this is sort of being repeated down the ranks of the Republican Party. You have the situation in Michigan where this really, I think this is a term of art, but this real complete wacko is claiming just don't be head of the party when it's really Hoekstra now, apparently. We'll see. They'll have to figure, they'll have to duke it out. So earlier this month, the Republican National Committee recognized Pete Hoekstra, who was endorsed by Trump as the state's party chairman. He will oversee a convention in Grand Rapids while Karamo is holding her gathering in Detroit. As that plays out, former South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley was in Grand Rapids yesterday making a final plea to Michigan voters.

And you look at what's happened in all the early states. They'll talk about Donald Trump winning, and he did. I give him that. But what about the fact that in all the early states, he did not get 40 percent of the vote? Now, Donald Trump will say, oh, those are all Democrats that voted in South Carolina. No, less than 5% were Democrats or unaffiliated. Those are Republicans. Same thing in New Hampshire. Look at Iowa. 40% of the vote is not with him. You can't win a general election if you don't get the 40%. And then is he doing anything to help himself? No.

He said anyone who supported me was barred permanently from MAGA. Now think about that. If you're running for president, your job is to bring as many people to you as possible, not push people out. Right. But that's what he's doing. He's pushing people away from the Republican Party. No doubt about that, Michael Steele. And this is the trap Republicans have set for themselves, is it not?

Which is they are the party of Donald Trump, fealty to Donald Trump, which is enough to win a primary, but not by as much as you would expect a de facto incumbent to win a primary, which is what Donald Trump is getting 60 percent of the vote, losing 40 percent of the vote in South Carolina, where he is very popular. So now they have a candidate who can win the primaries, no doubt about that, but is repelling, to say the least, even some Republican voters, but certainly independent voters, that he'll need to win a general election. Yeah, it's how you grind yourself down as a national party into the dust of nothing, because the reality of it is, as Joe aptly pointed out, there is no real runway here to sustain a long-term, you know, growth prospects for for Republican Party with Donald Trump as its head.

And it has spent the last eight years systematically taking out the leadership that could win. The candidates that could win are losing in primaries. And Michigan is just a recent example of that. You know, Nikki making the point about the 40%, and a lot of people are dancing on the 40% in New Hampshire and in, where were we just now? It's all a loss on me. But here's the deal. That 40% is not a real number.

I mean, when you've got Democrats and Independents who are voting in your primary, in a Republican primary, you have to you have to say something to yourself about, well, where is my base? You know, when 22 percent of that 40 percent was actually independents and Democrats who were in that who voted in Nikki's South Carolina primary. So she lost her home state among Republicans by a much bigger number. And so then the question becomes, how do you translate that into a national campaign for Super Tuesday? Well, guess what? The Koch brothers said there's no there there

and have pulled that money out. So where do you go now? So the reality is Donald Trump, everything he touches does die. Everything he has tried to put in place does not work. The RNC now is going to be controlled by his daughter-in-law, basically. And a chairman of North Carolina who is an election denier, 40 out of the 168 members of the RNC, Mika, 144 of them came in under Trump.

They're all Trump's people. So where do you think this party is going to go in succeeding elections? Well, on the Democrat side, President Biden is expected to easily defeat Congressman Dean Phillips of Minnesota. But his biggest challenge is likely to come from the state's large Arab-American population. Michigan Governor and Campaign Co-Chair Gretchen Whitmer acknowledged that a large portion of the electorate will not vote for him in protest of his handling of the Israel-Hamas war. I think there will be a sizable number of votes for uncommitted. I think that it is every person's right to make their statement about what's important to them. The uncommitted organizers have said that they want to get at least 10,000

votes. Do you think they'll reach that? I think that that's possible. Yeah. Adrienne Elrod, this is a challenge given that the war in Israel has taken turns that are inexplicable in terms of the losses on the side, the Palestinian side. I mean, over the top is how President Biden put it himself. Correct. There are rumblings that President Biden is extremely frustrated. But perhaps would a breakthrough, a ceasefire of some sort, even a temporary one, make a difference? Well, I think it's kind of too early to tell on that. I mean, you know, and look, this administration, President Biden has

made it very clear that they do have work to do with the Arab population in Michigan and other states across the country. This is obviously a very difficult time for them. And a lot of these circumstances, of course, are beyond President Biden's control. I know. So so the other thing about Michigan that we have to keep in mind is the protest vote has been around for a while. President Obama received protest votes in 2012 during his reelection. So this is not a new phenomenon to Michigan. But look, you know, I think Governor Whitmer, of course, was very diplomatic in her approach to this. She made it very clear that, you know, voters have the right to speak out. And if this if a protest vote is something that they feel that they need to do, that that's perfectly

acceptable. We have to also keep in mind is as important as Michigan is to both sides during the general election. There is still a lot of time. And President Biden's campaign is going to be very focused on, you know, doing whatever they can to get as many votes as they can in his corner. And in our fourth hour, we'll have Governor Gretchen Whitmer as a guest. So we'll be interested in talking to her about that directly, Joe. Yeah. Hey, Willie, you know what these protest votes, what you call it, you call it democracy. Yep. We're in a primary. It's a perfect time to send a message to the White House. A perfect time to say, hey, you know, look at us.

We've got real concerns. We you know, we we understand that you're doing everything you can to push Netanyahu along. We understand which I think I think there's a growing realization. If you look at The New York Times editorial yesterday that Joe Biden is moving as fast as possible right now. But this is this is very understandable. I mean, you heard this with Hispanic groups from 2009 to 2000, January 2017. There was constant criticism of Barack Obama as deporter in chief. Do you remember that? Yeah. Over and over again, constantly. We're not going

to vote for him. Why should we vote for him? And you know what? The Obama White House and Hispanic Americans figured out a way. These groups figured out a way to come together. And and he ended up doing quite well there. I have no doubt Joe Biden will as well. But this is just part of the push and pull of American politics. And people shouldn't freak out about it. It's February. I couldn't agree more about your point about democracy, which is this is the point of the whole deal. You get a vote. Your vote matters. It counts. You get to send a message right now and tell the president of the United States you don't like the way the war in Israel inside of Gaza is being prosecuted. That's the right of the voters in Michigan.

And we're going to hear them today. Jonathan Lemire, 10,000, by the way, the number they're trying to get to to uncommitted about the margin in 2016 in the president of the United States did say it looks like we're on the cusp here of a temporary ceasefire, which would be a significant moment, a ceasefire of several weeks to allow humanitarian assistance to get into Gaza. Yeah, there are a couple of developments that seem close in the war there in Gaza, potentially an agreement to get some hostages out and as well as a lengthy ceasefire time before the start of Ramadan, the Muslim holy month, which begins soon sometime next week. But this is in terms of the politics today. The Biden campaign is bracing for a pretty significant number of people to vote uncommitted. We saw a similar effort in New Hampshire a few weeks ago, and that one kind of faltered. People were supposed to write in ceasefire and that didn't amount to much. And Biden won big. They think today will be more significant. Michigan does have a large Arab-American population, a large Muslim-American population. And there's certainly a lot of young voters there also angry.

And I do think there are warning signs for December, for November. And there's no question to your point, to Joe's point, it's only February. This is the moment to have a protest vote. But some on the Biden campaign staff say they worry that even if the Gaza war fades from the headlines between November, some of these voters aren't coming back. They're not going to vote for Trump, but their anger is such that they will look for a third party candidate or they will simply stay home. And already the Biden team is thinking in Michigan they might have to stitch together a different coalition to win. They're not going to be able to bank on those Arab American votes that they got last time around. And that's why we're seeing an emphasis certainly on working class voters, on suburban women and the like, while the Trump team, at least for now, focusing on sort of black men,

thinking that could be an option there. But Michigan is certainly one of the most important states on the map this November. And particularly for the president, it's hard to see a path to victory if he can't pick off Michigan along with Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. So as we showed you at the top of the show, the president of the United States was here at 30 Rock yesterday, three floors above us, talking to Seth Meyers. Then the two of them went downstairs and had some ice cream where the president was asked about this potential ceasefire.

Can you give us a sense of when you think that ceasefire will start, sir? Well, I hope by the beginning of the weekend. I mean, the end of the weekend. At least my national security advisor tells me that we're close. We're close. We're not done yet. And my hope is by next Monday, we'll have a ceasefire.

Seth in the two shot, acknowledging the awkwardness there. Look, they went down to get ice cream as part of their shoot. The press is there. They shout questions. He answers them, given that it was a strange visual. Well, of course, it was a strange visual. I mean, the president did all he could do. And I must say, also, you know the historical precedent. I mean, you know, December 8th is the most obvious one. 1941, FDR was actually holding an ice cream cone when he talked about a day which would live in infamy. You don't see that film.

Chocolate, so you couldn't see it as much, right? Kind of blended into the wood behind it. Yeah, black and white, too. It's one of the weaselier, but go back and look at that today on the Google, and your Google machine, you'll actually see that. So, Gene, turning now really quickly to Middle East peace from sheer idiocy. It's going to be difficult, but I think I can do it. I think I can do it.

You know, there is, and here we go. Ready? Okay, so we're going to cut that in post. So cut that part out, TJ. And this is the part where I get serious. Yeah. Two, one. So, hold on, one. So, Jean.

Hold on a second. Please don't. So, Jean. Take your time. Take your time. Yeah. Let's get serious here for a second. What voters in Michigan don't see, but what will become apparent, is that the Biden administration, the president, the vice president, the CIA director,

of course, poor Tony Blinken, who's always on a plane, Jake Sullivan, they have all been working around the clock with Arab countries in the region. And they have been working with one goal, a two state solution. Well, actually two goals, a ceasefire moving towards a two-state solution. And there's a lot that people in Michigan and around the country, around the world won't see until it happens, the fruits of that labor, because it's all sort of happening, you know, underwater. But we saw, I thought, pretty big news today on the front page of the papers, and that is that the Palestinian Authority's cabinet resigned. And what is happening right now is the Arab countries that are working with the United States,

aggressively working to get people in charge of the Palestinian Authority that are not corrupt, that are technocrats, that can help not only run the West Bank, but also run Gaza after this war is over. That is a significant step. They need Abbas to also step down, and I think we will get there. But there is no doubt it's not just the United States pressure, but it's the United States and our Arab allies across the region, all working quietly behind the scenes to one goal. And that will become evident to all Americans

as we start to see again the fruits of their labor yeah that's extremely important those resignations in the palestinian authority cabinet um because it it what what they're trying to do is take away netanyahu's benjamin netanyahu's reason or excuse for not moving ahead with negotiations for a two-state solution, which is that there is no legitimate partner with whom to negotiate. And he had an argument about the Palestinian authority, which has been corrupt and has been largely hapless in some ways. You could argue that Netanyahu has done everything he can to perpetuate that situation. And that one wonders if the last thing he'd like to see is an actual, functional, non-corrupt Palestinian authority that could take charge. Gene, I mean, let's insert here, Gene, Benjamin Netanyahu has been working for years to undermine that californian

authority and help hamas exactly helping hamas we're talking about telling cutter keep funneling hundreds of millions of dollars into hamas by helping hamas we're talking about doing everything he can do to make sure that the funding that they discovered in 2018 doesn't doesn't get disturbed that Hamas grows in power while the Palestinian Authority gets weaker and weaker. That is a matter of record. And so, yeah, he doesn't want there to be a functioning government because he wants he wants to play to the extremists in the West Bank that keep setting up illegal settlements setting up illegal settlement settlements and uh attacking uh Palestinians who live in the West Bank um and and making them live under intolerable conditions so so this is this is a a major step, again, behind the scenes. The political problem,

the political issue here, of course, is that one doesn't see what's happening behind the scenes until a result emerges. And that takes time. But this is a significant step. The thing about Michigan is that that really distinguishes it, that area outside of Detroit, especially in Dearborn, and not just a lot of Arab Americans there. There are a lot of Palestinian Americans there. There are a lot of people there for whom this is intensely personal, as in familial, as in my neighbor's family. And so that's a that's a that's a heavier lift to to get those voters back to the point where they'll say, yes, we'll we'll support Democrats. We'll support President Biden as a way as we always have. But let's see what happens between now and then. As you said, it's it's February and there's still time for events. So we'll see. So coming up after the break,

we're going to talk with the whole crew about Gene's piece about Donald Trump's con man hustle for black voters connecting with them because of his quote in... We forgot to wear our sneakers today. You guys didn't... You got the gold ones? I'm sorry. No, we forgot. You were going to wear them?

Yeah, we're going to wear our sneakers. Next time, guys. Next time. All right. And my menthol cigarettes. We'll explain why Gene feels it's not going to work. Oh, my God. I don't got my menthols.

We'll be right back. Don't have the sneakers, but I got my menthols. So, Gene, you're writing about Donald Trump's comments to black voters. It happened last Friday in South Carolina. As a reminder, here is some of what the former president said at the Black Conservative Federation's annual gala. These lights are so bright in my eyes that I can't see too many people out there. But I can only see the black ones. I can't see any white ones. You see, that's

how far I've come. That's how far I've come. I got indicted for nothing, for something that is nothing. They were doing it because it's election interference. And then I got indicted a second time and a third time and a fourth time. And a lot of people said that that's why the black people like me, because they have been hurt so badly and discriminated against. And they actually viewed me as I'm being discriminated against. It's been pretty amazing. I'm being indicted for you, the American people. I'm being indicted for you, the black population.

The mugshot, we've all seen the mugshot. And you know who embraced it more than anybody else? The black population. It's incredible. You see black people walking around with my mugshot. You know, they do shirts and they sell them for $19 a piece. It's pretty amazing. Millions, by the way, millions of these things have been sold. So a bunch of racism there on top of a lie about the assault on our democracy.

I got indicted for nothing, just for nothing. And then they did it again. Gene, your new piece is entitled Donald Trump's con man hustle for the black vote is not going to work. And you took a look at his history a little bit. Yeah, right. That's all you have to do. I mean, the first time Donald Trump's name was in the newspapers was in 1973 when the Trump company, it wasn't called the Trump Organization then, it was his father's company, but he had just taken a leading role in the company, was sued by the Justice Department for discrimination for refusing to rent to African-Americans

And they entered a consent decree that's promising not to do it anymore without admitting guilt So that was the first time then of course there was the central part five the black and Latino men who were wrongly convicted of a brutal rape. He took out front page, full page ads in the New York newspapers saying, bring back the death penalty. And even after they were exonerated by DNA, he refused to apologize. And he insisted they were still guilty for some reason, even though DNA proved that they

were not. And they were all released and exonerated. And it goes on and on. His history is one of frank and overt racism. And it's there for all to see. And so anybody who looks at that is not going to believe, you know, they're not going to be out buying their Trump sneakers. Yeah. Michael, see, you remember the first time around. What do you have to lose? Yeah. Yeah. It's there's something resonant about that. I mean, it's it's a it's in politics. It's a question that you could ask any audience, you know. But I think to Gene's point, the reality of it is with Trump,

there is nothing there substantively because of his own history that would tell me that I would have something to gain with him. And that's been proven time and time again as you listen to him talk to black people as if they're not there. And that, you know, when I hear him say the black people, it reminds me of some 1950s redneck who's referring to them, other, even though they're in the room yeah when you say that you know these lights are so bright that I can only see the black people I don't want to make too much of it because you know it is what it is it's

Donald Trump but I think it also says a lot about the narrative that he puts out there, that he thinks so little of the black community that he can get our vote with, you know, giving us greater access to menthol cigarettes and a nice pair of gold lemay sneakers. And I'm so happy you wear my mugshot on your T-shirt because you can identify with me because most of you are in the criminal justice system. And that's basically his narrative to the community. Nothing about health care disparities in black neighborhoods. Nothing about the educational disparities in black neighborhoods. Maternal mortality. Nothing about the mortality rate among black women and babies. Nothing about fair housing. Nothing about redlining that among black women and babies. Nothing about fair housing.

Nothing about redlining that goes on in black communities. So they come up with some two bit. Oh, here's another little economic development plan we want to put out that most white people benefit from. Yeah, because there's no resources that are put into black entrepreneurism, seriously put into black entrepreneurism, through the black economic engines that exist with those who are creating jobs or trying to create jobs. So, you know, Joe, I just think the whole thing for me is just more of the pandering BS that this iteration of the Republican Party think they can get away with, and that that's enough to go in front of black people, refer to them as the black people and and say, hey, you know, you got your sneakers and your menthols.

Yeah. Reminds reminds me of Ross Perot. I think he was going before the NAACP and he was he made sure everybody knew before the speech. I wrote this speech myself and he kept referring to his audience as you people. You people. That didn't go over so well. That did not go. Didn't have the light touch, nor does Donald Trump, who we all remember in 2016 said, where's my African-American? Where's he was at the the rally and he found uh

one black guy in the crowd and pointed to him and yet jonathan o'meara despite this ham-fisted approach trump people still think they're going to increase the black vote for donald trump i mean and it's like in michigan and states, it's like a cornerstone and they talk about it all the time. Again, I had campaign officials telling me, I'll bet you anything he's going to get 20 percent of the black vote in in 2020. I was like, yeah, I'll take that bet. It's just not going to happen. And you look again. Talk of that, just this talk is ceaseless. Oh, Donald Trump, somehow he appeals to black men more. And so the black vote is going to be he got about six to eight percent, according to AP

vote cast in 2016. And he got about six to eight percent in 2020 unchanged. And I bet he'll get about six to eight percent in 2020. Unchanged. And I bet he'll get about 6 to 8 percent in 2024. And yet the mainstream media talks about this constantly, just like they used to talk about, oh, yeah, well, you know, Donald Trump did have the greatest economy. No, he didn't. In fact, he was behind Jimmy Carter in GDP growth. He was behind six other presidents since 1960. It's just this garbage that's repeated so much that actually people, even in the press, pick it up and take it as gospel. Yeah, the Trump people and Trump himself have always been very good about spinning narratives

and selling stories that, yes, some in the media buy. You're right. They've been talking for a while now that Trump would do better with black voters, particularly black men. As you just noted, it didn't really happen in 2020. They're making the same case now. We just heard it because of the indictments, because of the mugshot. Trump advisers have said to me because of the sneakers, because Donald Trump gets his name dropped in rap lyrics. The sneakers and rap lyrics are also signs they think that will lead to more black voters coming for Donald Trump. Now, the Biden campaign acknowledges they need to do better there, not because necessarily those black voters are going to go to Trump, but they might stay home. I think there is a general sense

across a lot of demographics that people, there's unhappiness at this choice. But certainly, this is part of what the reelection team's challenge is going forward, is that in states like Michigan, Willie, in states like Pennsylvania, turning out the voters in, like, say, Pittsburgh and Philadelphia, they know they need to do that in order to add to the margins they feel pretty good about in the suburbs because of Trump's overwhelming strength in the rural counties in these key battlegrounds. Yeah, in 2020, Mika, Joe Biden got 87% of the African-American vote, slipped only 2% from Hillary Clinton, who got 89% in 2016. One note, Joe brought up the infamous 2016 rally moment in California where Donald Trump said, look at my African-American, look at him. That man is named Gregory Cheadle.

He, a couple of years later, left the Republican Party and became an independent because of Donald Trump. As we've been discussing, Michigan will hold its presidential primary today. The closely watched swing state would be a key pickup for either candidate hoping to take the White House in the fall. Michigan, of course, was a hotbed of conspiracy theories at the height of the Stop the Steal movement during the last presidential election.

Former U.S. Attorney Barbara McQuaid talks about the role of disinformation in our election process in her new book titled Attack From Within, How Disinformation Is Sabotaging America Out Today. And Barb joins us now. Congratulations. It's pub day. Yeah, thanks so much. Really, really excited.

We've been waiting for this day and now it's here. We've got the book in our hands. Let's talk specifically. You live in Michigan. You understand it well about the confluence of a primary election today and the disinformation we've seen, particularly in the last election. As we said earlier, it wasn't actually particularly close this time. It was 150,000 votes spread in 2020, as opposed to 2016, when it was much closer. And yet you had this big movement inside the state to overturn the

results of the election. How did disinformation play into that? Well, you know, in Michigan, there were allegations all over the place that there were votes that flipped from Biden to Trump with the mail-in ballots. There were stories of bringing, you know, suitcases full of ballots to the counting center, which was at the time called the TCF center. And there were people there arguing that they were pounding on the doors, that cheating was occurring. And of course, there was no such thing happening. We are very fortunate in Michigan to have incredible leaders like our governor, Gretchen Whitmer, and our secretary of state, Jocelyn Benson, who have done a wonderful job to try to dispel disinformation and make sure that the elections are fair and accurate.

And by the way, at great risk to themselves. I mean, obviously, there was a kidnapping plot against Governor Whitmer and Secretary of State Benson also had threats against her. But they persisted through all of that. So what has changed in your estimation as you write in the book, looking ahead to 2024, coming out of 2020, lessons learned to help thwart some of that disinformation? Well, already we are seeing some of the things that Donald Trump says. And, you know, the keys to his false claims are repeat, repeat, repeat.

And so now what we are hearing about this stolen election is that these indictments against him are election interference. That the only reason he is being indicted is to allow Joe Biden to win and for him to lose. Of course, nothing can be further from the truth. Grand juries, citizens of this country have returned these indictments. But if he can convince enough people that this is all a plot to throw the election, that can help him by undermining public confidence. And if he can just get people to stay home, that is another way that he can win. And so discouraging people from showing up is a strategy. Yeah, Barbara, that's exactly where I wanted to go with you. Disinformation can lead to voter suppression. The idea of whether it's fake robocalls or tech

schemes saying, no, the election is actually this day rather than this day, like false information. You don't need to vote. Stay home. How do we as a media, but also just your average voter, how do you combat that? How do you get through that? Yeah, so I think it's really important that there be accurate information in the media. Also to encourage people to look at credible sources of information like their secretary of state discord in social media or online elsewhere to discourage people from showing up altogether. Robert Mueller wrote about a fake online account called Blacktivist that was very patient for many, many months leading up to the election and attracted a lot of voters who thought this was a real grassroots black activist. And then as Election Day approach,

told people to stay home, don't vote, speak with your feet by staying home, send a message. And just that suppression can have an effect on the outcome of the election. And Donald Trump, of course, has raised the stakes to the point where this is a war in effect, right? That they're trying to keep me out of the White House. He's using lies to make that case. But we've seen people go to the Capitol in Michigan with AR-15s, confrontations with police officers. There's a militia movement

inside, of course, Michigan. So what are the concerns there about the next step from disinformation, which is these are high stakes. We've got to resort to violence to get Donald Trump back in the White House. Yeah. And I think one of the things that Donald Trump and his supporters have done is to normalize violence. And, you know, there's a phrase, I talk about this in the book called stochastic terrorism, which is when somebody advocates for violence or talks about, you know, we need to achieve this by any means necessary.

You know, there is someone out there who's gonna hear that message and take the law into their own hands. You may not know who or when exactly who it is, but we've seen this before when Donald Trump talked about the FBI planting evidence at Mar-a-Lago, we saw a man storm the FBI office in Cincinnati. We had the man with the hammer at Nancy Pelosi's home. We've had people outside the home of Jocelyn Benson, our secretary of state.

And of course, as you mentioned, the plot to kidnap Governor Whitmer. And so it's incredibly dangerous when people suggest that the ends justify the means. And we have to calm everybody down and bring some calm to the chaos. Yeah. And Donald Trump certainly doing the opposite of that, Mika. He wants chaos, not calm. Well, and you hear it all the time. And he just doubles down and triples down on his lies. And they often don't go corrected or contradicted, depending on who's covering him. So I'm curious how you get this book in front of audiences who are victims of disinformation. Yeah, I think it's really important, Mika, to not just preach to the choir. And so I'm doing a lot of work to reach out and speak to groups, civic groups,

rotary clubs, and other kinds of organizations where you might have an opportunity to reach across the aisle. You know, also, I think it's really important not to be judgmental, not to lecture people, not to make them feel embarrassed or duped. I dealt with this a lot when I dealt with fraud victims. When people are victims of fraud,

they sometimes feel embarrassed or ashamed that they fell for the con. And so I think by reaching across the aisle, by helping people understand what's happening and expose these lies, we can lift people up by not shaming them, but empowering them. Such an important book in many ways,

the story of our time. Former U.S. Attorney Barbara McQuaid, the new book, Attack From Within, How Disinformation is Sabotaging America, is on sale today. Congratulations. Great to see you, Barbara. Thanks so much. Congratulations. Charlie Chaplin and Mika. Wow. Well, it's hard for me to even say this because I get really emotional about it because I've known him for so long, he's like a member of the family. I know.

But to see. Our boy. To see our boy. Hit the big time. Our baby. Hold on a second. Hold on. It's going to be all right, honey.

I'm going to start the Nixonian flop sweat again. It's all right, the sweat. Just make sure there isn't tissue sticking to your face because I'm not there for you. Okay. He always, right there, he always has. Yeah. Now that. Can we tell people other things as I'm trying to connect with Willie.

I'm trying. He's such a sweet child. So he's such a sweet child. But he's hit the big time in the usa he is our honey pie and here here is a clip from curb your enthusiasm to give you an idea little idea about what i'm talking about i'm a little jelly all right well i think this is going to work pretty well you and I will talk in the interview, be loose like this, you tell your story. Just like this, okay.

Think if it's alright with you, we can do it here. There's a lot of beautiful space. Great. Been talking to a bunch of people. Everybody's got something to say about you. Although one person did call you an a**hole. Who? Who called me an a**hole? Huh? Do it in here. Who called me an a**hole? Huh? Do it in here.

Who called me an a**hole? Larry, we're not going to do this, okay? I don't give up my sources. I need you to respect my journalistic integrity. Journalistic integrity? Where's the integrity of telling me that somebody called me an a**hole? Is there integrity there? It's a small part of a larger story.

I have to tell the full picture. But it's a universal fact that everybody is called an ass. I'm sure Mother Teresa was called an ass by someone. Oh, I doubt that, Larry. Oh, I know. I don't doubt it. No. Somebody must have said, Oh, she's so good, she's so good.

What an ass. Larry, please. Somebody must have said that. Oh, look at Miss Perfect helping the lepers. You know, come on. And I'm not giving you the source, so we can just drop it, Larry. That's it. That's it. All right, you know what? you don't have to give me the source i know it was you don't know

it's ted dancing yeah i just saw that i just saw that no that's a tell that was a look away i saw it that's not a look away that's a let's move along that's it it's not ted that's all i'm gonna say oh okay forget it i know who it was i can't believe it who do you think it is it was troy the deaf actor at the club troy kotzer the guy who won the oscar for coda yeah yeah i hit him with a golf ball because i couldn't yell four and i threw a bagel at him too what do you think he signed to me that you're an ass totally yeah larry let me ask you a question, as long as we're talking about the club. Sure, yeah. Are you disgruntled?

Disgruntled? Yeah. You know about disgruntled? When a guy puts a note on the locker room door and there's a fight inside the club, there's something there. I am most certainly not disgruntled with a capital D. I'm disgruntled with a small d, Willie. How could you be a human being and not be small d disgruntled with a capital D. I'm disgruntled with a small d, Willie.

How could you be a human being and not be small d disgruntled? Well, you're coming at me with some big d disgruntled energy right here. I am not big d. Little d all the way. You sure about that, Larry? Yeah, I'm thinking. Thank you. What are the Emmys? Listen, what are the Emmys? Listen. What are the Emmys?

I don't know. Is that more Brando on the water? Is it Nicholson in Chinatown? It was commanding. Hoffman and Meryl Streep and Kramer. Look at him. He owns the screen. It's like nobody else is there.

Sorry, Larry. Willie, this is your new career, my son. This is your future. I don't want to give away too much of the plot because people watch it all week. But let's just say I was there for a couple of days. And as I watched on Sunday night, I was surprised at how much they actually used. It's a lot of me in the episode. But it was, as you guys know and have seen, to go there and be on that set and watch behind the scenes in

person, the genius, truly, truly the genius that is Larry David and his executive producer and director, Jeff Schaefer, who was a writer on Seinfeld, his right-hand man, to watch them cut a take and then go in, lean into what if you said this? What if you did this? Because there really is so much ad lib on the show. It was truly just like a pure honor and a privilege to even be there, let alone to show up on the episode. That's so great. And he completely eclipsed Larry. He just we love Larry. Little D. Little D. Come on. Little D.

All right. Little D dominant. Yes. Really, really. We're big D dominant. It's fucking me. I don't know. Okay.

Congratulations. I can't wait to watch that. Congratulations. It's really good. All right.