Morning Joe - Morning Joe 2/6/23

Episode Date: February 6, 2023

Tensions ballooning with China over espionage effort ...

Transcript
Discussion (0)
Starting point is 00:00:00 General, we've never seen an object like this gain entry into our airspace before. How did that happen? That's an excellent question, Katie. The balloon was somehow able to get past our West Coast anti-balloon defense system, the Seattle Space Needle. But here, we were able to keep an eye on it with our sophisticated tracking technology of going like this. Saturday Night Live with its take on China's spy balloon. This morning, there are rising diplomatic tensions between the U.S. and China after a White House decision to shoot down that massive spy balloon.
Starting point is 00:00:42 We'll walk through what happened and take a look at the growing fallout. We're also following the devastating aftermath of a powerful earthquake that left hundreds of people dead in Turkey and Syria. This morning, rescue crews are searching through Rebel for any survivors. And back in Washington, there is a major GOP donor looking to, quote, turn the page on past several years in an apparent rebuke of former President Trump. We'll explain that development. Plus. President Biden got a surge of support at the Democratic National Committee's annual winter meeting in Philadelphia on Friday. As Democrats approve a new primary calendar reshaping the way the party picks its presidential nominees. We'll speak to the chairman of the DNC just ahead.
Starting point is 00:01:41 And good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Monday, February 6th. With us, we have the host of Way Too Early, White House Bear Chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, NBC News National Affairs Analyst, Executive Editor at The Recount, and the host of the Hell and High Water podcast, John Heilman, and President of the Council on Foreign Relations and author of the book, The Bill of Obligations, The Ten Habits of Good Citizens, Richard Haass is with us this morning. A lot to get to. We start with the latest on that Chinese spy balloon and the rising tensions with Beijing over the Biden administration's decision to shoot it down. A senior defense officials tell NBC News that the Pentagon has been analyzing the remnants
Starting point is 00:02:26 of the balloon over the past few days after it was shot down off the coast of South Carolina on Saturday. According to the Defense Department, the balloon first entered U.S. airspace on January 28th by way of the Aleutian Islands, and it then briefly crossed into Canada before reentering U.S. territory on Tuesday via Idaho and floating across the Midwest to South Carolina. Speaking after Saturday's shoot down operation, President Biden gave new insight into why the balloon wasn't brought down sooner. On Wednesday, when I was briefed on the balloon,
Starting point is 00:03:07 I ordered the Pentagon to shoot it down on Wednesday as soon as possible. I told them to shoot it down. On Wednesday? On Wednesday. They said to me, let's wait till the safest place to do it. The violation of international law led to the White House canceling Secretary of State Anthony Blinken's planned visit to Beijing last week, which was to have been the first by a cabinet
Starting point is 00:03:31 member since the Biden administration took office. That's a message. Despite multiple statements from the Chinese government accusing the White House of overreacting to a so-called weather balloon that drifted off course, U.S. officials have doubled down on their position that the balloon intentionally crossed into North America to, quote, monitor sensitive military sites. So, Joe, a lot of questions here. Yeah, I mean, a lot of questions, a lot of hyperbole, a lot of a lot of panting and heavy breathing on Twitter over the past weekend. And surprisingly, not really, not surprisingly, a lot of Republicans are making total fools of themselves with statements that they're making about the balloon. Richard Haass, I won't even say their names because why you why you dignify their remarks with with any comments. But the Pentagon decided that it would be best not to shoot the balloon down on Wednesday.
Starting point is 00:04:38 And the idea we have these people screeching, howling, members of Congress, members of the Senate, people are supposed to know better about how this is the end of Western civilization as we know it. And we've backed down. This is, you know, this is the this is Napoleon retreating. And, you know, the winner as the Russians. Again, the lunacy as if they don't spy on us and we don't spy on them. Let me let me step into the fray here with you and suggest that, yes, this is a problem and it's a problem that needed to be taken care of and was. And it's a problem that we need to talk to the Chinese about. But we can't do that if we're canceling the first diplomatic mission that we've had there since Biden was president of the United States. Was it a mistake to cancel that meeting despite the balloon over Montana? I think it was. I would have gone ahead with the diplomacy. We would have given the Secretary of State the first chance in a half dozen years to speak with Xi
Starting point is 00:05:45 Jinping, who's the only person there who really matters. We've got enormous issues on the agenda, including growing Chinese support for Russia and what it's doing in Ukraine. Obviously, we don't want Taiwan to trigger a war between the world's two largest economies. We have real issues to discuss with China. It's not the first time they've sent balloons over us. There's some mystery here, Joe, as to why this one seems to have been lower, why it was observed. The one thing I'm pretty sure is that even though China was intentional in sending a surveillance balloon this way, they were not intentional. They did not want to disrupt this summit. China's been on a charm offensive for the last few months, ever since
Starting point is 00:06:25 President Xi and Biden met in Bali. They want things to calm down. If they wanted to cause a crisis between the United States, trust me, they got a lot of ways to do it. And my guess is they begin it with Taiwan. So I think this was truly unintentional. I think we probably got it wrong in canceling the visit. And I think the criticisms that we should have shot it down sooner. This was not something where the Chinese learned a whole lot, as best I can tell. We seem to have interfered with the ability of the balloon to glean certain intelligence. As you pointed out, that's hardly the only area of surveillance or espionage that they carry out on us or vice
Starting point is 00:07:06 versa. And I just make a large, are that are that again, are that we carry out on them this, the fact that, that some of these Republicans are so shocked that this actually happens horrified. I mean, we do it all the time. We, we we we surveil them all the time. It's what happens. And again, this is this is an incursion and we should treat it seriously. But but should we declare at the end of Western civilization and should we cancel a summit when we have, again, like you said, a war in Ukraine there? And we we've got to talk to she because right now she has been the person, along with Modi, that sent the message to Putin. Hey, if you use tactical nuclear weapons, all bets are off. We're we're we're going to come out strongly against you.
Starting point is 00:07:55 And that's you know, they they're putting boundaries around Putin. And then, like you said, we have Taiwan. That's that's a growing concern. We've got an economic slowdown. We need to work. There are there are thousands of issues that the world's last two superpowers need to discuss that we haven't been able to discuss on the highest level. And again, this is one of those just grow up moments. Yes, it happened. Yes, it's bad. Let's take it to the table and talk to Xi about it. Absolutely. This is why God invented diplomacy.
Starting point is 00:08:32 You have diplomacy not because you don't have problems, but because you do. But this is not the Cuban Missile Crisis. This is not a major event in the history of the modern world. Again, I don't see the Chinese were out to make a larger point. We don't exactly know who authorized this and when it was authorized. We don't know what their intentions were, other than they clearly were sending a balloon to gather some kind of information. Let me take one other point, and then I'll stop, which is that in crises,
Starting point is 00:09:03 it's sometimes good to slow things down. The Republican hyperventilating here, it seems to me, goes against crisis management. The whole idea is to slow things down, to calm things down, not to overreact and so forth. That's the lesson of how Kennedy handled the missile crisis. So again, I actually think the administration got it about right, not acting precipitously, shooting it down when it was over water. And now I think the challenge is to get things back on track. And again, less of a need to hyperventilate if you're talking about a balloon.
Starting point is 00:09:39 Well, it's not just any balloon. From Beijing. Well, again, it's serious. We've talked about it being serious. But some of the statements from the Republicans, especially in the Senate, have just been asinine. And these jackasses going out again, I'll get my shotgun. I'm going to shoot down the balloon. Seriously, they again, they just they make clowns of themselves.
Starting point is 00:09:59 Let's bring in right now from Beijing, NBC News foreign correspondent Janice McEfrayer. Janice, good morning. Any insights to this balloon that interrupted what was going to be a very important diplomatic meeting between Tony Blinken and President Xi? Well, there's no surprise that there is official outrage here in China. But the foreign ministry today was not revealing much more about the balloon to shore up the claim that it's a civilian airship gathering information on the weather. However, a spokesperson did say that that second balloon that was spotted over Latin America is also Chinese, it is also civilian, and it was also blown off course. Now, the statement that was released yesterday by the foreign ministry blasted the U.S. for overreacting, for using force, for shooting down the balloon.
Starting point is 00:11:07 And the defense ministry also said that it be here right now, having those first meetings with Chinese officials that were seen as the best possible chance in years to reset relations. That China spies on the U.S. and vice versa is certainly no secret between these two sides. I spoke yesterday with Zhou Bo. He is a former senior colonel with the PLA, now with the think tank, and we talked about China's options. This has nothing to do with military reconnaissance or surveillance. This is an accident, and we have expressed a regret over this. And if the United States believe in it,
Starting point is 00:11:48 and I cannot see any reason why the U.S. government should not believe it, except to make a, you know, a political use of it. So this should be over. American surveillance and reconnaissance by ships, aircraft, drones, are almost uncountable, yeah, on an annual basis. And that is intentional. And they do not want to keep it a secret. Whether China's leadership wants to escalate a situation they claim was accidental is unclear. A lot of the commentary here is painting what the U.S. did
Starting point is 00:12:26 as a provocation, as an attack, while on social media, the U.S. is being mocked for overreacting. What the concern is, certainly among some of the analysis that I'm reading from the U.S., is that there's the thought a precedent has now been set and that U.S. surveillance operations in the region could now be targeted. And certainly anything that happens in the near future that involves the U.S. and Taiwan is certainly going to raise the temperature here. Or if something is discovered in that debris field, considering the proximity of that balloon to those sensitive sites. But several days and a downed balloon into this. China still isn't saying who it belongs to or what it was doing there. All they will say is that they are outraged and that
Starting point is 00:13:17 they reserve the right for further repercussions. Joe shocked, stunned and deeply saddened. All right. Thank you so much. NBC's Jackie Mackey, Janice Mackey Frayer. Thank you so much. It's early here. Thank you so much for your reporting, as always. Greatly appreciate it. So, you know, John Heilman, I said I was going to mention any names, but it seems to me that if you're a ranking member of an extraordinarily important committee in the United States Senate, you probably should try to not debase yourself over a balloon. Marco Rubio, of course, just tweeting frantically and says that if we can't shoot down a balloon over Montana, then it's China's testing us and they know we're not going to do jack if China takes over parts of Japan or India. A middle schooler, a middle schooler
Starting point is 00:14:16 should be embarrassed for tweeting such things, let alone one of the most powerful Republican senators in Washington, D.C. Please, please give us your insights on the Republican over response to all of this. Well, I heard you talking about jackasses, Joe, when I heard when I heard that the word jackass come out of your mouth, I start trying to conjure in my mind who you might be thinking of the Republican Party. And as you know, I've spent a long time studying the mind of Joe Scarborough. And it did occur to me that the Republican senator from Florida, once known as Little Marco, might be on your mind. Because he was not just tweeting,
Starting point is 00:14:58 he was on television. He went on one of the Sunday shows and said exactly what you said. This is China sending a message to the world. I'm quoting him now. He says that America is in decline. America is a once great superpower, now in decline. And what they are telling the world is that America can't shoot down a balloon over Montana. America has no way that America could be a real force in a conflict over Taiwan, for instance, as you mentioned. And, you know, he went on to be a great length about this. I mean, a great length about this balloon.
Starting point is 00:15:39 John, let me ask you this question. What is it, John? What is it about Republicans in the age of Trump where all they want to do is tear down America? You have Ted Cruz that wishes American soldiers could be more like Russian soldiers. You've got little Marco talking about the collapse of America, that we're a weakened power. I don't know if they've noticed, but our military is stronger today relative to the rest of the world than any military has been in the history of humankind. This is just a controvertible fact. And yet they trash our military. They Donald Trump says he trusts
Starting point is 00:16:29 Vladimir Putin more than he trusts our intel services. They say they wanted to fund the FBI. They try to tear down every institution that protects us. And they wonder why they keep losing elections. Well, right, Joe, like you look at me, so many examples here, you know, you would have thought that, you know, perhaps that that Marco Rubio and these other Republicans would, you know, would occasionally take note of the fact that I think if they were to call up President Zelensky in Ukraine and ask how he feels about the way the U.S. has kept the NATO alliance together to aid Ukraine over the course of the last year and put them in the position that they're in now that no one expected. I mean, really, in the world's largest active conflict, there's been no force other than Ukraine itself on the other side that's had more effect in terms of who thought
Starting point is 00:17:24 NATO would be as strong and as unified as it was. Certainly not Vladimir Putin a year ago. And what has happened instead, Joe Biden has led NATO in a place where it has been steadfast and unified. It may be not perfect, but has performed with the degree of strength and resolve that no one expected. And I don't think you have to be a Joe Biden cheerleader to say that if you're a NATO cheerleader. Every country inside NATO would say that. But that escapes little Marco, apparently, because he thinks that he agrees with China. The implicit critique is that he and other Republicans, you say, agree with what they think the Chinese view is, which is that America is in terminal decline.
Starting point is 00:18:01 And I don't know. I think there is, you would have thought after four years of Donald Trump saying that he had made America great again, that these folks would have the permission to come out and say, you know what, America is great again. And not to say, well, if America is in such a profound state of decline, what happened to those four years of Republican leadership where Donald Trump made America great again? I don't understand it. Did Joe Biden bring on American decline just in the course of the last two years? I just think it makes no sense, the things they say. And it's not in their political interest either to have this position. It's not what republicanism has traditionally profited from, which is American exceptionalism
Starting point is 00:18:38 in the sense that the country remains the singular force for freedom and democracy around the world. Yeah. They seem to want to argue against that. So think about this. It makes no sense. It makes no sense that before Donald Trump's elected. And by the way, illegal crossings from Mexico were at a 50 year low then. And then he got elected and all hell broke loose. But just think about this. Just think about this. Donald Trump's going around screeching about how the American dream is dead before he gets elected. And he's going around screeching about what it what was an American savagery or what carnage, American carnage when he becomes. And then suddenly America is great. And now now that you've got somebody other than Donald Trump in there, you've got all of these people running around and they've been doing it, talking about how weak America is, how America is in decline. Like they're so busy hating on America.
Starting point is 00:19:34 They're so busy hating on America's military. They're doing it again this week and talking about how we're in. No, we're not in decline. We're stronger than we've ever been. And I get so sick and tired of hearing people say this. It's been happening on the show for 50 years. China is going to overtake us. China is going to. We hear it every day. We hear it every day. I will just quote what Warren Buffett said after the crash in 2008. If you bet against the United States, you're going to lose every time. And yet these
Starting point is 00:20:05 Republicans, Ted Cruz wants Russian soldiers instead of American soldiers. Maybe he should visit a base or two in Texas to understand we've got the best fighters in the world. We've got the best men and women in the world. We've got the best leaders. We've got the best weapons. We've got the best military system. We've got the best training. And Mika, on the point of training, when you want to talk about the superiority of the United States, and I know it makes Marco Rubio angry when I talk about how great America is. I know it makes Ted Cruz angry when somebody's not hating on the United States military or the men and women who are the professionals in our intel services. But let me tell you something. You ask the Ukrainians why they're doing so well right now.
Starting point is 00:20:51 They'll say, yeah, the weapons are great, but it's American know how. It's American training. They've been training us since 2014. They've taught us to be light on our feet. They've taught us to go out into the field. They've taught us how to not have a top down system like the Russians have, but bottom up. It's uniquely American. It's why the Ukrainians have shocked the world. It's why there's 200,000 Russian casualties because of Ukrainian courage, Ukrainian persistence. But yes, American weapons, American know-how, and American training. Listen, our troops are the best in the world.
Starting point is 00:21:33 They're the best they've ever been. And I'm sick and tired of Republicans trashing the United States of America. And I'm sick and tired of their trashing our men and women in uniform, suggesting we're in decline. If you think we're in decline, if you want to have Russian to move to Russia, Ted, if you hate troops from Texas, move to Russia, please, please. We're not keeping you here. If you think we're in decline, if you think we're in decline, then move Marco from Miami to Moscow. It's that simple. You know, it's conservatives that used to say America, love it or leave it. I feel like saying it right now to these Republicans who constantly trash America.
Starting point is 00:22:20 They constantly trash the United States military. They constantly trash the men and women in the Intel community who keep us safer and stand behind a man that says he trusts Vladimir Putin more than he trusts our professionals in the Intel community. Mika, this is no way to run a party and it sure as hell no way to win elections. No, it's not. And you bring a good point. First of all, Joe Biden, if any Republican cared to look, has done a pretty masterful job on the world stage, not only dealing with Ukraine, but working with our partners and strengthening NATO. That history we'll be looking at very kindly on this presidency. But they're busy being reflexive. They're busy being reactive to anything. No matter what it is, they will react negatively. And again, to your point about our military, our world partners have a lot to say about the U.S. military. Talk to Poles, people in Poland. When the 82nd Airborne came and helped them along the border, nobody was happier to see the 82nd Airborne than the Polish citizens who had three million refugees crossing their borders. And there was the 82nd Airborne helping getting everything
Starting point is 00:23:39 together. And then the news came that there will be more permanent troop presence in Poland. Nobody more pleased than Poles to hear that they will never be invaded again because they know exactly how strong the U.S. military is. It's like the Republicans don't see what the world sees because they're so busy, Jonathan Lemire, with their blinders on. Yeah. And one of the arguments we heard from Republicans over the last few days is like, well, this never would have happened when President Trump was in office. Please. And yet we know from officials that three different times during the Trump administration, a Chinese spy balloon was spotted.
Starting point is 00:24:15 And what happened? Over the United States, none of those were shot down. Terrific. So this is something the Chinese have done before. And, you know, questions remain as to why a balloon, as opposed to information they could glean from the satellites or drones or other matters. And certainly it is a concern. The White House officials tell me over the last few days, they felt like their hand was forced
Starting point is 00:24:33 here. They had to do something, not just because it was over sensitive military sites out west, but they had to send a message. And also because it had become such a story that you couldn't turn on TV or look at Twitter without talking about the balloon. They had to act and they were told, the president was told by the DOD to wait till it's over water because of the debris field. Officials tell us it's stretched over about seven miles or so over the Atlantic Ocean. Certainly if that had happened over land and the payload of this thing was equivalent of three buses, people could have really been hurt. People could have really been hurt. So they felt like they had to wait. They had to act.
Starting point is 00:25:08 And I'm told that they felt like the Secretary of State's visit to Beijing would have been completely overshadowed by this. They still want that trip to happen. There's a thought that it could be rescheduled before too long. But they made the calculation that now wasn't the right time. Interesting. Yeah. You know, Richard Haass, it is so surreal for you and me, people that as a former Republican,
Starting point is 00:25:30 you worked for quite a few Republican administrations. Isn't it surreal to have Republicans in the Senate trashing the United States, talking about us being in decline just because they hate Joe Biden and not seeing what Mika was talking about. You talk to the polls and, you know, it's like the 82nd Airborne. Psycho, those troops are 10 feet tall. I mean, you can see the pride in the polls, like their chest just like, you know, sticking out. They're so proud that the 82nd Airborne is there. The 10th Mountain Division is coming next. We have a permanent base there. And how could it be that people in foreign lands recognize the greatness of the United States military? And yet you have people like Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio trashing them all the time and saying that we're weak and in decline.
Starting point is 00:26:29 Two reactions, Joe. One is maybe this makes me a dinosaur, but I grew up with the adage that politics stop at the water's edge. The presumption during the Cold War, but other times as the United States came together and they left the partisanship behind. We have come a long and depressing distance from that. It's almost as though people can't wait. What's so ironic is the difference between the Trump-China policy and the Biden-China policy is almost nil. There's tremendous continuity between the two for better and for worse. And more broadly, I would think there's been some good things about this administration's foreign policy. We've gone from America first to alliance first. We've been effective in standing up to Russia and Europe. We've strengthened ties
Starting point is 00:27:13 with Japan, strengthened ties with Taiwan, with Australia, with India. So we're actually in a much better position to deal with China. And Republicans ought to be celebrating that. That's the big story, not this balloon. By the way, Richard, by the way, can I just say, you know, we've talked about two of the more high profile Republicans. Let's be fair here. Very fair. There are a lot of really responsible Republicans that have been really responsible during the Ukrainian war. Mitch McConnell has actually stood shoulder to shoulder, the way you said, in a bipartisan manner, making sure that a communist, an ex-communist member of the KGB, doesn't overrun Ukraine.
Starting point is 00:27:59 And they have been strong. I've heard some Republicans that have actually praised the fact that Joe Biden has has, again, worked with not only Australia, as you as you've said, but worked with Japan, worked with South Korea and now the Philippines to build a really strong to strengthen our alliance. I mean, people people that are talking about Biden right now and I had a lot of harsh things to say about the Biden administration, the decisions that were made on Afghanistan. I know you did, too. But if you look at Ukraine, if you look at Europe, if you look at Asia, our alliances there are stronger and actually cause more of a threat to China than anything Donald Trump ever dreamed of doing. When historians, I think, assess the Biden foreign policy, just these four years, I think that'll be the lead story. It'll be the resurrection of the alliance system, not just in Europe, but really building of the one in the Asia Pacific, what's called the Indo-Pacific. Now, all the countries you you you mentioned, Japan at the center, but also Australia, South Korea, Philippines, even even Vietnam to some to some extent.
Starting point is 00:29:18 And that's the big story that we've got these two big strategic challengers in Russia and China. And in both cases now, we are better off than we were in dealing with them. All right. We want to get to this terrible news out of Turkey and Syria, where a powerful 7.8 magnitude earthquake hit the area, killing more than 1300 people. Hundreds are still believed to be trapped under rubble. The epicenter of the quake was in south-central Turkey, home to many Syrian refugees and the site of one of the largest operations run by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. The part of Syria
Starting point is 00:29:58 that was hit is divided between government-held territory and the country's last opposition-held enclave. This is the world's deadliest earthquake since June, when a 5.9 magnitude quake killed more than 1,100 people in Afghanistan. We'll stay on it. And still ahead on Morning Joe, new polling shows most Americans don't want a 2024 rematch between Donald Trump and Joe Biden. We're digging into those new numbers. Plus, what we can expect from President Biden's State of the Union address, including his plans to draw a contrast between his leadership so far and the state of the Republican Party.
Starting point is 00:30:39 And embattled Republican Congressman George Santos facing new scrutiny again, this time in the form of a harassment allegation. Also this morning, my conversation with Pamela Anderson. She's weighing in on her new Netflix documentary and memoir. You're watching for this. Right here, right now. And this was the place I want to be. Republicans try to cut Social Security. It's not going to get by the Senate, in my view, but I'll stop them. If they try to cut Medicare, I'll stop them. I got a veto pen. They try to pass the 30% national tax, I'll stop them. And if they send me a national ban on the right to choose, I will stop them.
Starting point is 00:31:43 Thirty-five past the hour, President Biden speaking Friday at the Democratic National Committee's annual winter meeting in Philadelphia. At this point, President Biden faces no meaningful opposition to his leadership of the Democratic Party and a smooth path to renomination next year, even before he has officially declared his intention to seek it. As for the nominating process, the Democratic National Committee has adopted a new primary schedule, one that will dethrone Iowa and New Hampshire as the leadoff states in the Democrats presidential nominating process. Under the new rules, South Carolina will go first, then Nevada and New Hampshire, followed by Georgia and Michigan. However, the proposed calendar changes are not yet final.
Starting point is 00:32:33 Georgia will need cooperation from Republicans in the state to change the primary date, and officials from both sides of the aisle in New Hampshire are vowing to fight the DNC schedule changes and still hold their primary first. Party officials are giving both states until June 3rd to finalize their calendars. Joining us now, chairman of the Democratic National Committee, Jamie Harrison. And Jamie, I'll toss to John Heilman for the first question. John? Mr. Chairman, good morning and happy Monday. A big move by the Democratic Party here. It's been many years when these traditions, Iowa goes first, followed by immediately after by New Hampshire, New Hampshire alone on the following Tuesday. Now out the
Starting point is 00:33:20 window. Talk to us, just walk us through what the calendar now looks like and what the reasoning was behind that. We have some general sense of it, but the reasoning that put these five, this new five part calendar in February looks totally different. What the reasoning was that led you guys there? Well, John, Joe, Mika is always great to be with you. And I need to say hello to the most avid morning Joe watcher, which is my mom, Patricia. But listen, this calendar looks like the Democratic Party and it reflects the diversity of America. When you look at it, we start off with three small states. We start with South Carolina that has chosen the Democratic
Starting point is 00:34:05 nominee every time since 1992, with the exception of 2004 with John Edwards. John Kerry got second here in South Carolina. We then move three days later to two other small states, New Hampshire, which has traditionally been the second contest, as you all know, Iowa, then New Hampshire. New Hampshire retains that spot. And then we also add Nevada, which elevates Latino voters. And then we go to two larger states. We go to Georgia, which is the home of the New South. And then we go to Michigan, which is the heart of the heartland, where the middle class was born. So I'm really, really excited about this calendar because I think it does reflect the best of the Democratic Party and the best of America.
Starting point is 00:34:50 Chairman Harrison, good morning. Jonathan Lemire, I know this will be a decision and the order could be reevaluated in four years. That's part of this. But New Hampshire is pretty unhappy now. They say that things have changed. Yes, they're still second, but they're no longer the first primary. South Carolina has jumped them. And we're hearing from very prominent Democrats in that state. Forget about the Republicans. Very upset about it and saying they simply won't play ball. So what are you going to do? Well, you know, again, I know this for a second time. New Hampshire has always been the second presidential nominating contest, and it continues to hold that position in this calendar. But let's take a step back. For 50 years, I just turned 47 yesterday,
Starting point is 00:35:31 so longer than I was alive. For 50 years, Iowa and New Hampshire have been, you know, the one-two step as it relates to selecting the next nominee for the Democratic Party. We are just changing that. We're giving more people and more voices an opportunity to influence where we go as a party and where we go as a nation. And I think that's really important for us to continue to evolve. So this is what we're going to do. We have told New Hampshire we will continue to work with you. Again, they are in the same spot. Actually, probably even a little better because instead of having a week between Iowa and New Hampshire, there will be three days between South Carolina and New Hampshire. So they're still going to have tremendous influence over the process, just as much as they've always had.
Starting point is 00:36:19 But we are adding more diverse voices because our party reflects those diverse voices. So we're willing to work with them and we will continue to do just that. Yeah. And Jamie, so so let's we need to give people a historical perspective here. This isn't like this just happened. I mean, if you read some op eds on the far right, they'll say, oh, Joe Biden's doing this to rig the election for next year or for 20, yeah, for 24. This has been a legitimate complaint among Democrats for decades. You have two of the whitest states in America going one and two, usually by the end of those two contests, the narrative is framed and nobody else can get through it. And I remember us commenting on this show after Biden got crushed in Iowa and Biden got crushed in New Hampshire and people were saying he's out of the race.
Starting point is 00:37:13 I remember us commenting. I wrote a Washington Post article that I said, wait a second, wait, wait. You actually have a Democratic candidate that's going to be kicked out of a race before black voters, the Democratic Party's most important constituency, even have a say in it. These two states, as close as they are to our hearts, we love them for a thousand different reasons pertaining to this show. And we have so many friends there in Iowa, New Hampshire. But these two states do not reflect the diversity of the Democratic Party. And this has been an ongoing complaint for 20 years.
Starting point is 00:37:51 Joe, you hit the nail on the head. You know, President Biden said when he visited South Carolina in the last contest, by the time he got there, it was the four contests, there were a number of other candidates that had already dropped out. But as he said, 99.9% of black voters had not had the chance to vote at that point. And that just should not be when African-Americans and Latino-Americans make up such an important component, the backbone of the Democratic Party. And so we needed to change things up because things have changed a lot since the 1970s. The Democratic Party looks very differently than it did then. And so we have to constantly evolve. And this is a part of that
Starting point is 00:38:37 evolution. And I'm proud of this calendar. And I think it's going to only strengthen the Democratic Party long, long term. So if a state doesn't abide by the rules, do you just not count their primary delegates? Well, hopefully we are not going to get down that road, Joe. But we have passed some mechanisms that give the chair some authorities in order to enforce our calendar. And if we have to go down that route, we will. But we're going to do everything that we can to work with our states. Again, New Hampshire is still in. I mean, if anybody should be complaining, it'd be Iowa, right? But New Hampshire is still in the same spot that they have always been in, the second nominating contest. And we will continue to work with them to ensure that
Starting point is 00:39:32 they participate fully in this process. All right, DNC Chairman Jamie Harrison, thank you so much. And Patricia, thank you so much for watching. We greatly appreciate it. We love you, Mom. All right, coming up, a network of ultra-wealthy conservatives says it will support a candidate in the 2024 Republican presidential primaries. And it doesn't sound like it will be Donald Trump. chances to win the nomination. Plus, revelations the Trump 2020 campaign team knew it lost in a pivotal battleground state, but continued to cry foul voter fraud. Anyway, we'll play for you the damning new audio recordings. Morning Joe, we'll be right back. Monday morning, it was all I hoped it would be. 48 past the hour, a live look at the White House on a beautiful morning here in Washington.
Starting point is 00:40:36 The Associated Press has released new audio recordings of a Trump campaign staffer back in November of 2020, two days after Election Day. Specifically, the audio is from the Trump campaign manager in Wisconsin, offering a behind-the-scenes look at how the campaign there knew they'd lost to Democrats in the state, but continued to promote allegations of voter fraud anyway. Here's the drill. Combs is going to continue to fan the flame and get the word out about the Democrats trying to steal this election. We'll do whatever they need our help with, okay? It's just being standby in case there's any stunts we need to pull.
Starting point is 00:41:23 The AP points out that the man you heard in that audio clip, Andrew Iverson, is now the Midwest regional director for the Republican National Committee. He deferred all questions about the audio to the RNC, which declined to comment. So, Joe, here we go again. I mean, up and down the line. Well, I've been down the line, but it's coming from the very top with Donald Trump and John Heilman. If you listen to the entire clip, he begins by telling everybody that's assembled, hey, listen, tip of the hat to the Democrats. They out organized this. They got people out to vote. They beat us fair and square. Now, we're going to have to run around and screech about how Democrats stole this election. Stand by to pull, quote,
Starting point is 00:42:15 stunts. That's just part of the story. I think, as Paul Harvey would say, if you want to know the rest of the story, this guy got a promotion. He went from running Wisconsin to running the entire Midwest region because he knew they lost. He saluted the Democrats for out organizing them and then said, let's scream and yell and say we were we were robbed. This election was rigged and let's pull stunts that's what you do in the republican party in 2020 and 2022 to get a promotion i mean look you know that's uh it it was it was certainly what you did in 2020 and 2022 and i think you know we all agree the big question is whether that continues to be the case uh coming out of 2022 is as whether the the sort of what seems to be the fading relevance of Donald Trump, whether that will also mean the fading relevance of Trumpism.
Starting point is 00:43:13 And I think that's kind of the central question facing our politics and the Republican Party. all the people up and down the line who decided in that moment when that tape was made that there was no potential cost, no potential real risk to kind of indulging Donald Trump's dangerous rhetoric on this front. And we obviously learned to the contrary. But, you know, I bet that if you went into an awful lot of closed rooms in battleground states that Joe Biden won, that he wasn't supposed to win, supposed to win according to the Trump people. You would find very similar tapes in a lot of places where people who had looked at a lot of this data, just as people did at the national level in the campaign, and looked and said, you know, we lost this election. But there was no upside for them professionally to speaking truth anywhere,
Starting point is 00:44:06 let alone to power within their party. They thought, you know, the thing to do here is to salute sharply the lies and that we get rewarded for that. And as this shows, they did. And Mika, if you want another clean illustration, a great illustration of just how cynical Republicans were about this election, knowing they had lost. It's still lying publicly. Look no further than our own dear friend. I'm a bit sarcastic here. Ron Johnson. Remember, Ron was secretly taped at the Republic. I think it was a Republican convention or some right wing convention. And he sat there explaining accurately why Donald Trump lost. He got 60,000 less than our state legislative candidates.
Starting point is 00:44:56 He got 60,000 votes less than the other Republicans that were running statewide. He got 60,000 less than this, than that. I mean, Ron Johnson, when he didn't think he was actually being recorded, when he didn't think that this would see the light of day, admitted what every Republican in Wisconsin, what every Republican in Michigan, what every Republican in Pennsylvania, what every Republican in Georgia that was in the party knew. Right.
Starting point is 00:45:26 As Brad Raffensperger said, it was a clean election, one of the cleanest elections ever. Donald, one of Donald Trump's own people that was in charge of election integrity said it was the cleanest election in American history. But here you have these Republicans saying, wow, the Democrats. Well, this guy's saying the Democrats just outworked us. Ron Johnson saying it was all Donald Trump's fault. That's what they say privately. But then they go out publicly and try to undermine American democracy. Here it is again. Why do Republicans tear down America? Whether Republicans are tearing down the American military, whether Republicans are tearing down the men and women who are in the best law enforcement agency on the planet, whether they're tearing down American democracy. Why is it the Republicans feel the need to keep tearing down America for one guy who will show them absolutely no loyalty? And if he doesn't win, the Republican nomination will run as an independent and destroy the Republican Party for another eight years.
Starting point is 00:46:42 Yeah. And you can add to that list Roger Stone, who I think said, you know, if we don't win, I think he used F you just say F you to people like that. They planned on cheating all the way through.

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