Morning Joe - Morning Joe 3/1/24

Episode Date: March 1, 2024

The Morning Joe panel discusses the latest in U.S. and world news, politics, sports and culture.

Continue to monitor this. Just one slight thing I just wanted to add, because when you hear it and you heard it from Donald Trump about the 2020 election and it got millions of more votes, in fact, he did get millions of more votes. He still lost that election. That is not in doubt anymore. That's not being debated anymore. Fox News host Neil Cavuto with another fact check on Donald Trump, this time about his election loss in 2020, both Trump and President Biden. I just I just wonder that, Willie, what what if Fox News viewers who are lied to with great regularity on some of these issues, what do they think when Neil Cavuto is there gone? Yet? No, none of none of that's right. Yeah, you know, you can almost hear I was smiling because you can hear the lawyers for

Fox News and in the anchors ears, seven hundred eighty seven million, seven hundred eighty seven million, the hit they took for lying about certain elements of the election. He's telling the truth. It's a verifiable, objective truth that a lot of people still reject. So he says at the end, Neil Cavuto, rightly, there's no doubt about that anymore. But sadly, there is a lot of doubt in many Americans' minds because of the lies they've been fed now for all these years. Well, yeah, for so many years and so a majority, actually, of Republicans believe the lies that are spread by Chinese religious cults and unfortunately by networks in America and politicians, too. But, you know, we showed very briefly that clip of Biden going to the border. And we heard at the end of of way too early, we heard that there's a belief.

Swazi believes, hey, he won on Long Island by leading into the issue. And that reminds me time and time again, Willie, whenever you think, you know, when people are telling you have to run away from an issue because it may be dangerous, that's when you run straight into it. I mean, when we a long time ago, we we Republicans had to slow down the rate of growth in Medicare because the Medicare trustee said it was going bankrupt. So, of course, you know, everybody said that we, you know, slashed Medicare. We threw grandma out in the street and I was asked about it. My first campaign event and which was unfortunately at a retirement home, and the debate. And then, you know, I got attacked by the Democrat. I said, well, OK, you know what? I'm going to make this

entire campaign about Medicare. And I've told this story before. You would think that that would hurt me with senior citizens. I actually, you know, had the highest approval rating among senior citizens at the end of that campaign for like 150 districts that, you know, a pollster, Glenn Bolger, with Public Opinion Strategies, polled. I ran into what was supposed to be the great weakness. My opponent, my friends that were scared of it got crushed. But I ran into it. And yesterday at the border, you had Joe Biden doing something that Tom Suozzi did that I'm just every Democrat in America needs to do. They need to run straight in to this issue of southern border security like Joe Biden did yesterday because Republicans have screwed it up. They could have had an issue, but they screwed it up.

And I thought yesterday illustrated perfectly the difference between Biden and Trump at the border. Biden actually asking Trump, help me out here. Yeah. Yeah. That was an extraordinary bank shot that the president pulled, not just going to the border and recognizing exactly what you're saying is that maybe he's fallen into it backwards because of the help of the Republicans, but he's got an issue now that he can say, guys, I do want to fix this. In fact, we helped push along this bipartisan legislation in the Senate. Why aren't you taking it up? And the bank shot now, as you point out, Joe, was saying, Donald Trump, this issue is too

important. What do you say you and me work together on this? Join me. Together, we can fix this problem. So that that moment alone speaks to how this issue has shifted in the favor of Joe Biden. I mean, it certainly wasn't for a long time. It was one of his great weaknesses. But now with that assist from House Republicans, he can, as you say, run on this.

You really can. And you look with who Joe Biden's with. He's with border security agents who begged Republicans to pass the bill. And even more importantly, both President Trump and Biden were there at the same time. So you really get a split screen at not just their messages, but their approach to this and the fact that the Republicans passed on it. So Donald Trump is trying to steal thunder on something that he told his people, his minions in Congress, to pass on so he could have it later after he runs so it doesn't hurt his campaign. The messages to voters were very different, starkly different. Also ahead, we're going to bring you the latest from Gaza after more than 100 people were killed while trying to get access to food and other desperately needed aid. Plus, we'll go through some of Hunter Biden's testimony on Capitol Hill.

Did you hear about this? New transcripts are giving a better idea of what was said behind closed doors. Once again, brutal, brutal, despite having the best legal counsel in Washington, D.C., Arnold the Pig, you know, once again for Comer and his committee, it really was bad. This is why they wanted it behind closed doors. So, you know, I think that we're going to have some transcripts from it, but nothing again, a big nothing burger. And on top of it, quite frankly, people were chuckling in the room because it was so stupid. And at one point, Abby Lowell, actually Hunter's attorney, Hunter's attorney. Did you did you see this? Well, he goes, if the record can reflect everybody, the room is laughing at you talking to the Republicans.

Oh, yeah. He wanted that recorded for history. By the way, you've done more, Joe, in the last few weeks for the legacy of Green Acres than anyone in the history of pop culture. I mean, just to bring Arnold the Pig and that entire show back to the nation, to a new generation, really, of viewers, they ought to cut you syndication checks. They really should. I mean, between Arnold the Pig, Mr. Ed. Oh, Mr. Ed. The monkeys on that Super Bowl commercial that were turning the charts upside down.

I love Mr. Ed. You know, there have been great contributions throughout TV history. By the way, I think the Chimp ad may have been my favorite Super Bowl ad ever. Oh, it's a good one. That was great. Was it? Oh, my God. We digress.

It was Friday. What a pitch. What a pitch, Joe, for Green Acres to CBS back in 64. Hey, here's what we're thinking. The pig, he's treated like a member of the family. He's a son. He goes to school. He has a backpack.

We really like it. We hope you do, too. And the rest is history. But yes, we digress. And by the way, the pig is the smartest person in the entire town. And CBS is like, we'll take it. Well, whoever whoever believed in East Coast elitism, they'll take it. All right. Along with Joe, Willie and me, we have MSNBC contributor Mike Barnicle is with us, deputy managing editor for politics at Politico, Sam Stein, and former Supreme Allied commander of NATO, retired four-star Navy Admiral James Tavridis.

Who is asking, why the hell am I here? What am I doing here? But I'm sure he liked Green Acres, too. He is also chief international analyst for NBC News. All right. Let's get. We have to take a serious turn. We do because we want to get right to the news. And right now, the funeral for Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny is underway in Moscow.

Navalny died in a Russian penal colony on February 16th. His mother then spent eight days trying to get authorities to release his body. It was finally granted after she made a video appeal to President Vladimir Putin. Now the family says the Kremlin is trying to block a public funeral and some are worried the services will be disrupted. A heavy police presence can be seen outside the church and cemetery where Navalny will be buried. Joining us now from London is NBC News chief international correspondent Keir Simmons. And Keir, even people who were laying flowers or trying to pay respects in the wake of Navalny's death were arrested. What's expected today? Well, as we speak, Mika, the funeral is getting underway.

Alexei Navalny's body has arrived at the church, according to his supporters. And what we're seeing there in Moscow are scenes that in the U.S. would be considered ordinary. And in today's Russia are extraordinary. So organisers say that more than a thousand people have arrived outside the church. Just think about the bravery of each one of those people. If they are arrested, that legal case can result in a fine or it could be escalated, we estimate, to anything up to 15 years in jail. Each one of those risking that to stand and pay respects, last respects to Alexei Navalny. Also in the church, ambassadors arriving, including the U.S. ambassador. We also have seen in the crowd the families of other jailed opposition leaders. And Boris Nadirshin, who is one of those who has said that he wants to stand against President Putin in the election in a few weeks' time and has been, frankly, banned from standing.

The Electoral Commission in Russia deciding that he is not eligible for various reasons. So all of this is happening in the context of President Putin standing for election and of course is going to be elected in just a few weeks time. Alexei Navalny's wife Yulia, we don't know where she is. She obviously has been outside of Russia. She won't be there because she has refused to be silenced. She has been speaking out even this week, describing her husband's death as that he was killed by President Putin. So this funeral, this frankly extraordinary funeral, is underway right now. There are reports that there is a lack of mobile coverage,

that that has been silenced, even as the people there refuse to be. But Alexei Navalny's team, Mika, are running a live broadcast with commentators from his team, live on air, showing pictures. There's a global stream to get the message out. And what a juxtaposition, what a contrast. Yesterday, we saw President Putin, with a federal address to the nation nation broadcast on huge screens in Moscow. Now we have this funeral today broadcast on a live stream around the world. And trying to silence him right to the end, as you say, spotty. You can even see it in some of our images.

The images are breaking up a little bit. Difficult to see in some places. But I guess my question to you, Keir, is, as Mika pointed out, the very act of laying flowers at a memorial for Navalny got people arrested. It's hard to really gauge how much support he has. And by support for him, it also implies criticism of Vladimir Putin, because it is a crime, effectively, to do such a thing. What is your sense, covering Russia so closely for all these years, of the level of sympathy for Alexei Navalny and his cause within Russia? Look, we've said it many times, really, right? There are many Russians who are

sympathetic. There are also many Russians who support President Putin, not least because they think that President Putin hauled Russia out of the absolute chaos of the 1990s. And they still remember that and they are still grateful for that, if you like. That's the reality of the politics in Russia. But let me answer your question a different way, if you like. How much of a threat does Alexei Navalny or did Alexei Navalny pose? And I suppose you could say, does Alexei Navalny pose to the Kremlin in the Kremlin's own eyes? Well, Dmitry Peskov, the Kremlin spokesman, was asked today by journalists whether he now had anything to say to Alexei Navalny's family. And he says, he answers, I'm just going to look down

and quote this, the Kremlin doesn't have anything to say to Navalny's family on the day of his funeral. So when I interviewed President Putin, you know, some years ago now, he and it happens, it happens again and again, whenever he's asked about Alexei Navalny, he doesn't even want to say his name. I think the danger for the for the Kremlin now, if you like, I mean, there's no question who's going to win the election in a few weeks time. But the danger I think that the Kremlin itself will see is that you now have his widow, Yulia, travelling around the world, giving these speeches, taking up the mantle, if you like. And so the reason why they will be concerned with this funeral today is because they will be concerned, let's put it this way,

that Alexei Navalny hasn't been turned into effectively a martyr. Admiral Servetus, these are certainly epic times in terms of global history. And what would your assessment be of the role of the United States right now, given Vladimir Putin's role in his own country in containing potential disruptions because of loyalty to Navalny and his running of the war in Ukraine and not saber rattling about nuclear war, nuclear weapons. That's on one section of the United States side on the right hand section. In the middle, we have Ukraine, a war that seems to be badly in need, a country that's badly in need of reinforcements. And yet one political party

refuses to give help to Ukraine, virtually recreating 1937 to 1939. And moving further, lest you have a war raging in the Middle East and you've got Bibi Netanyahu, Vladimir Putin. Talk about the degree of difficulty diplomatically and militarily for the United States right now. obviously and hope hopefully yeah uh mike obviously having trouble with the admiral sound we will check on that uh and and and get back to admiral as soon as we can uh admiral uh i think we turned the on button switch on took off the the mute. So there we go. Go ahead. If you get a chance, if you can answer Mike's question. Indeed, on a scale of zero to 10, we're at a 12 and trending up in terms of degree of difficulty. And if you look back at the other moment, you could kind of point to, and Mike mentioned it, is the late 30s when you kind of see the international system, if you will, pulling apart. You feel the center isn't going to hold to steal a line from William Butler Yeats, the Irish poet.

And what I feel is crucial for the United States at this moment is to be that center. And so the way Mike categorizes it, you see Russia, this malevolent force moving and pressing against our European partners. You see real chaos unfolding in the Middle East, Iran being the driver behind that. And you see back here in Washington, D.C., we were talking about split screen on the border. Talk about a split screen of Navalny's funeral, this great heart, this unbelievably courageous patriot of his country. And the other screen is in Washington, D.C., where Republicans, let's be frank, are holding up aid that desperately needs to get to Ukraine

in order to make that center hold. So overall, unbelievably challenging moment for the United States. And we have got to maintain that center. Otherwise, events are going to continue to spin. All right. Our thanks to NBC's Keir Simmons for his reporting. And now to the border. President Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump both visited Texas towns along the southern border yesterday. In Brownsville, Biden met with local officials and called for compromise after congressional Republicans torpedoed a border security bill last month at the direction of Trump. Meanwhile, in Eagle Pass, the former president blamed Democrats for the migrant crisis. I understand my predecessors in Eagle Pass today.

So here's what I would say to Mr. Trump. Join me, or I'll join you, in telling the Congress to pass this bipartisan border security bill. We can do it together. The United States is being overrun by the Biden migrant crime. It's a new form of vicious violation to our country. There's no red state or blue state where I come from. They're just communities and families looking for help. There's Governor Newscum from California. Isn't that his name, Newscum?

What he's done to California is unbelievable. So instead of playing politics with the issue, why don't we just get together and get it done? But this is a Joe Biden invasion. Horrible. Crooked Joe is the blood of countless innocent victims. Compromise is part of the process. That's how democracy works. That's how it's supposed to work. We did much better in 2020

than we ever even thought about doing in 2016. And very bad things happened. We work for the American people, not the Democratic Party, the Republican Party. We work for the American people. Well, I mean, first of all, first of all, Donald Trump can't even speak in complete sentences. But when he does, he's lying. He's throwing out taunts about governors. First of all, first of all, Donald Trump can't even speak in complete sentences. But when he does, he's lying. He's throwing out taunts about governors again, like he's a child, like he's a five year old. And I guess I don't know people that that vote for him like like petulant little brats. I don't know why they would. They don't they don't let their kids act like petulant little brats. But maybe they think they want a president who's a petulant little brat. And then, of course, he lies saying things were better in 2020 than they were

in 2016. Willie, as we've said time and again, that's a complete lie. Border crossings, illegal border crossings were at an all time low or a 50 year low under Barack Obama and Joe Biden in 2016. 2017, when Donald Trump got into office, that's when the border crisis really exploded. Yeah. And again, Donald Trump is no longer a blank slate. This is not 2016. If there's a crisis at the border, he had four years as president to do something about it. He controlled Washington for the first two years. Both houses of Congress didn't build the wall. He promised didn't do any of these things, which speaks to the idea that, of course, he wants to keep this issue alive, wants to keep it up in the air. And that's why he has directed his lieutenants in the House of Representatives not to sign on to this bipartisan legislation. If they do, it gets at the problem. It begins to resolve. It gets better. And he

believes that works in the favor of Joe Biden. So we saw it again yesterday, those contrasting styles. One man who now actually wants to work with Republicans to get something done on the border. One man who wants to keep an issue alive. Let's go down there right now to White House reporter for The Washington Post, Yasmeen Abutaleb. She is in Brownsville, Texas, covering President Biden's visit. Yasmeen, good to see you. So what did you see yesterday there on the ground? And does the White House believe now that this is an issue they can run on, something that was perceived as a weakness for Joe Biden? I think at the very least, the White House is hoping to blunt the attacks from Republicans because polls show that this is a pretty big weakness for President Biden. People overwhelmingly trust

former President Trump on immigration more than they trust President Biden. And so now you see, I think President Biden has felt like he's found an opening to not just try to evade the issue, but to try to run on it and go on the offensive. And I think that's what you saw both Biden and Trump doing yesterday, is trying to take control of the issue. So obviously Trump was, you know, calling it a Biden migrant invasion and hurling sort of his usual insults. And Biden was trying to strike this tone and make very clear, because at one point in his remarks, he said,

let me be very clear about what happened. The United States Senate was ready to pass this. And then someone said, don't do this because it would benefit the incumbent. And so he you've seen him in recent weeks, one, you know, just toughening his rhetoric significantly on immigration, willing to take these measures and to talk about things that were anathema to Democrats for a long time. And two, I think to work to try to remind people that he was willing and eager to sign tough measures into law and that Republicans had agreed to them. They had demanded some sort of border security package as part of the more than $100 billion national security supplemental. And then they decided not to support it because Trump said

not to and that it would, I think Trump called it, it would be a gift to the radical left Democrats. And so I think Biden now is working to remind people of that, that he was ready to sign this and this is why it didn't happen. Hey, Yasmeen, it's Sam Stein here. It's one thing to go to the border, try to create this contrast and then produce a contrast, as we just saw. It's another to go ahead and then issue executive actions to deal with the migrant crisis. And one of the things the White House is considering are some executive actions that frankly, objectively, would mirror, although wouldn't duplicate,

approaches that Trump himself took when he was in office. I'm wondering if you could unpack what the White House is thinking there and if they do risk any sort of backlash from the progressive community over adopting that type of policy posture. Yeah, it's a great point. And they definitely risk a lot of backlash from the progressive community. Already, they've been getting backlash from immigrants rights groups and progressives for the border security package that was put forward. And of course, the measures that the White House has sort of floated and have been reported on are very aggressive measures, sort of course, the measures that the White House has sort of floated and have been reported on are very aggressive measures,

sort of blurs the line between Trump's immigration policy and Biden's immigration policy. Democrats, of course, have been quick to note that Biden is not talking about separating children from their parents, but these are much tougher measures than Democrats are used to, and there is definitely a risk of alienating the more progressive wing of his base. All right. The Washington Post, Yasmeen

Abu-Talib, thank you so much for your reporting this morning. We appreciate it. And still ahead on Morning Joe, the latest from Gaza after conflicting reports about the violence that took place there while a crowd was waiting for aid. What it means for ceasefire talks and the Biden administration's response to the war, plus the transcript of Hunter Biden's deposition with Republican lawmakers has been released. We're taking a look at some of the most combative moments from that closed door testimony. And you'll get a sense of why Republicans wanted it behind closed doors. And we expect to see former President Trump back in court today as part of his push to delay his classified documents trial in Florida.

It'll probably get pushed back to the year 2525. You're watching Morning Joe. Things are going. We'll be right back. 29 past the hour, the Gaza health ministry says more than 100 people were killed while waiting for aid. It happened yesterday morning in the northern part of the enclave where trucks rarely enter. Gaza health officials say dozens of people with gunshot wounds were brought to the hospital. But Israeli defense forces say the civilians died in a stampede after thousands of people crowded the aid trucks and tried to loot them. Officials

released this video yesterday showing that large crowd. The military did admit it opened fire at the other end of the convoy when it says a group of a group approached Israeli forces in a threatening manner. But officials say there were no casualties from that. NBC News has not been able to independently verify the death toll or circumstances surrounding the incident. Meanwhile, President Biden told reporters yesterday the U.S. is looking into the violence. This as ceasefire negotiations are still going on between Israel and Hamas. Take a listen. Do you still expect a ceasefire on Monday, sir?

Hope springs eternal. I was on the telephone with the people of the region. I'm still, probably not by Monday, but I'm hopeful. I've just we're checking that out right now. There's two competing versions of what happened. I don't have an answer yet. Are you worried about the complications of negotiations? I know, Will.

All right. What do you make of how President Biden is handling this? What do you think is going on here ultimately? Well, I, I mean, he's doing what he needs to do. I think a lot of people in the region and likewise, I think a lot of people in the states really agree with him and agree what he's told people close to him, that it's time to take a break, a public break from Bibi Netanyahu to support the people of Israel, support their right to defend themselves, support their right to protect their children and their families from Hamas. The people of Israel are pretty frustrated themselves.

They are. But to break from Bibi Netanyahu, because regardless, Admiral, regardless of what happened yesterday, obviously shooting into a crowd would be much worse. And we don't know whether the guys in health ministry run by Hamas. We don't know how accurate their counts are because, you know, they are run by Hamas. We don't know how accurate claims from the Israeli army are either. You've there are allies, but you've dealt with them in a time of war and understand that as well. But it seems to me, Admiral, whether it was gunfire, which would just be heinous, or whether it was Palestinians so hungry and so desperate for food because of the situation that they literally trampled each other to get food for their families.

This is this is one more devastating blow to Israel's reputation across the globe. And this is for the life of me when I don't understand why every supporter of Israel, like I'm a supporter of Israel, why they they don't understand that the scenes that are unfolding in Gaza are a generational nightmare for Israel across the world and are a very, very immediate human, human tragedy for the people of Gaza. This has to end. This has to end. Indeed. And let's let's start by just understanding what it would feel like to be a parent or a grandparent, as I am with desperately hungry children, 2.2 million people, half of them under the age of 18. So, yeah, there are going to be these horrific scenes like this. And again, we need to understand the level of crisis that's unfolding in front of our eyes. You know, one of my great life mentors was Colin Powell. And among many other wise things he would say is it's the pottery barn rule. You break it, you own it. In other words, military

101 is if you invade and you subjugate an area, you are now responsible for the food, the medicine, for the care of the civilians. That's bedrock for any military force. So for those of us who have served and remember going into Iraq, remember going into Afghanistan, you own that civilian population for maintaining it, for its care, its feeding, its medicine. So Israel, you are correct, Joe, is suffering immense reputational damage. And even military officers like me are just kind of shaking our heads at this. It has got to stop. And to conclude on this, within that war cabinet that Bibi Netanyahu has put together are some very steady hands, notably former chief of the Israeli Defense Force, Benny Gantz.

And they know better. They know this has got to conclude in a way that permits Sikor to these families. So this is headed in the wrong direction for Israel. It's horrific for Israel. You look at what's happening in the United States. We've talked about this. The majority of younger Americans, 30 and under, have openly hostile views of Israel and are supportive of the Palestinian cause right now. It's gotten much, much worse as as this has continued. You look at our allies in Europe, and I will say right now, most importantly, you look at the Arab nations that surround Israel that used to invade Israel and now want to become Israel's allies. I stay in touch with leaders from those countries, from diplomats from those countries, and they're all saying the same thing. And they,

you know, they've been saying it over the past month. You have to help Israel get past this because we want to come in and help the Palestinians. And let's just say for the first time in a long time, because the Palestinians are despised by Arab nations. They just are. They just are. And they've been abandoned by Arab nations for years now. But these Arab nations or allies, Israel's allies, want to come in, rebuild Gaza, help the Palestinian people. But they tell me we're running out of time. This has to stop or they can't come in. Yeah, I'm hearing exactly the same thing from very senior people across the region. And the tragedy of this, when we were talking earlier

with Mike Barnicle about the center holding here, this is where the United States could really step up and bring together all of the parties. You know, we ought to be celebrating right now the alignment of Israel and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. That was in the works before the events of 7 October. Instead, we see the scenes you're playing right now. We see the malevolence of Iran maneuvering throughout the entire region. The winner in all of this is the Iranian theocracy, that rotten set of mullahs in Tehran who are reveling in all of this now is more than ever the moment for the United States to bring these parties together. And what's in the way, Joe? It's Bibi Netanyahu. It is really time to cut the deal here. And make no mistake of it, Mika, the mullahs in Iran could not be happier with what's happening right now in Gaza. The Israelis playing right into their hands,

playing right into Hamas's hands, playing right into Hezbollah's hands. The cost, again, increasingly high, not just for the Gazan people, but for the future of Israel. All right. Let's continue that with our next guest, retired four-star Navy Admiral James Tafridis. Thank you very much. And joining us now, MSNBC analyst and author of the Beinart Notebook on Substack, Peter Beinart. And Peter, you know, October 7th, everything that happened on that day, before that day, after that day, obviously must be marked as a grievous day in history. And every moment must be documented and remembered, the atrocities, the questions. There's no question about that. Nobody's in this next point I'm about to make

is insinuating that at the same time through bombing or starvation, life is diminishing fast in Gaza. And for president Biden, I guess the question is, you know, you can't support that. You have to support trying to protect these civilians. And if you don't speak on it and act on it, is there a slight complicity here? Yes. Alex DeWall, who's an expert on starvation, on famine at Tufts University, has said that no population since World War Two has been reduced to the brink of famine as fast as the population of Gaza. The United States in the early 1990s went to war in Somalia. We sent our own troops in there to try to stop a starvation. This is a starvation that's happening faster. And you're right. Tragically, not just is the U.S. not stopping it. We are complicit in it. The truth is what happened on October 7th was a horror that people in my community, in the Jewish community, we remember, we pray for those

hostages every day. But the government that was in power in Israel, just like on 9-11, a horror struck the United States and a government that was in power in the United States used it for its own agenda when they invaded Iraq. This government, elements in this government, perhaps Netanyahu himself, have had an agenda. Our agenda is to move that population of Palestinians out of Gaza and force them into Egypt. The Washington Post reported that Netanyahu had asked the leaders of France and Britain to get Egypt to take these people. And so this being Gaza being made unlivable like this is part of a strategy by some in the Israeli government,

not everyone, some in the Israeli government to force that population out. The United States has to stop that from happening. And by the way, Egypt's answer to that so far has been absolutely not. That border is closed, not even taking in refugees. So, Peter, the sickness of all this, of course, is that what's playing out right now is exactly what Hamas wants, what it wanted in the beginning, what it provoked that attack, which is when you're a terrorist death cult, you don't care about your own people because it serves your means to make Israel look bad if civilians are dying. So when you talk about Joe Biden, the president of the United States now, as you say, having to insist to Prime Minister Netanyahu on a ceasefire, the view from the other side, as you know very well, is we cannot have a ceasefire with Hamas

because Hamas will not cease firing. We'll put down our arms and they will keep coming at us like they did it on October 7th. For our own security, we cannot have a ceasefire. So what do you say to that? What does President Biden say to that? The truth is matters that U.S. officials do not think that the United States can destroy Hamas. Of course, everyone would like Hamas no longer to exist, just as we would have liked the Taliban not to exist. But Israel doesn't have the capacity to do that. It has seriously degraded Hamas's capacity. There needs to be a ceasefire in which these people who stopped starving to death. And then there needs to be a political transition in Gaza from Hamas that could probably be negotiated now.

It's true. Not every Hamas fighter would be killed. Not every Hamas gun would be destroyed. But when we have to factor in the fact that every time Israel kills someone in Gaza, they are creating a new recruit for Hamas or the next Palestinian resistance group. We know that Hamas recruits from the families of people that Israel has killed. Can you imagine how many potential the recruits there are now to fight Israel? That's what terrifies me as someone who cares about the security of Israelis. Peter, on the morning of October 6th, 2023, Israeli intelligence services were viewed as among the best in the world. On the morning of October 6th, the IDF, the Israeli Defense Forces, were viewed as a strong, wonderful army.

Right. On the morning of October 6th, Israel was viewed by the United States and its population, large elements of the population, as a strong ally. And Bibi Netanyahu, a strong ally. Talk about the morning of March, of April 1st or whatever date it is now. Talk about the difference. Even before this, we were seeing a generational chasm emerge in the United States on the question of Israel. And it has accelerated since October 7th, in which older people have a vision of Israel as a liberal democracy, a country created in the ashes of the Holocaust, and feel like it's America's obligation to support that.

But younger people have known no other Israeli prime minister other than Benjamin Netanyahu. They've seen an Israeli government that does not want to create a Palestinian state, that wants to permanently occupy millions of people who lack the most basic human rights. And that is what's creating this crisis for Joe Biden, because young Americans are moving in drove at tremendous speed, just like on issues like gay marriage, a tremendous speed in the direction of supporting the Palestinian cause of freedom and not supporting Israel. And you know where else it's happening? It's happening among American Jews. There is a massive chasm among American Jews as well, in which young American Jews are the ones leading

these protests for a ceasefire. And Israel, as Joe was saying, Israel has contributed to that massively, starting when Netanyahu returned to power in 2009 and accelerating since he created this radical new government. All right. Peter Beinart, thank you very much for your point of view this morning. We really appreciate it. And just FYI for Mike Barnicle, it's March 1st. March. And April 7th is Mark's birthday. April 9th is your birthday. March 1st. Yeah. Okay. Next month. We got that. Big B day. All right. Coming up ahead of the 2024 election, a growing number of Americans are identifying as independent. I'm independent.

We'll talk about what that means for the challenges our democracy faces. Morning Joe is back in a moment. The truth's in one free... 49 past the hour, live look at the White House as the presidential election fast approaches. There is a rising tide of independent voters sweeping the nation. A recent poll shows 45% of Americans now identify as unaffiliated with any political party, a big move away from traditional allegiances that is reshaping the political landscape. And joining us now with charts on this is former Treasury official and Morning Joe economic analyst Steve Ratner. Steve, thanks so much for

being with us. You know, a lot of people look at this time and and in the future and they're thinking that maybe the rise and possibly fall of Donald Trump or the rise, fall and rise of Donald Trump can be the story, really the political story for the next 10, 20 years, the impact on on the country. I've got to say, politically, the rise of independence, which you're looking at right now, I think will be far more significant because it does seem that we're about to break what John Meacham has called that 150 year duopoly that has controlled American politics. Yeah, Joe. And actually, the two things I think are connected, but we'll see what everybody else thinks when I show you some numbers here. So in terms of Mika's lead in and this whole rise of

independence, let me just show it to you what it looks like on a chart to go back to 2004, roughly an even division among Republicans, Democrats and independents. And it has simply gone like this, like like jaws. Republicans and Democrats have ended up in the same place, although Democrats did better for a while. But now, as Mika said, independents are up to 45 percent. And what does this reflect? I think it reflects to a considerable degree people's unhappiness with the way our democracy operates. Only 27 percent of Americans believe that our system is working either well or very well. The rest think it's not working very well. There are 32 states that permit party registration. A lot actually don't.

Those of us who live in those states don't really understand that, but that's the way it is. Disproportionately large number of independents in states that don't permit party registration. And all of these green states, there was an increase in independence over this period of time from 2014 to 2024. A few states where it went down, but basically independence on the rise. You know, I was I was at a school event last night, Steve, and talked to several parents. We're just talking just in general and talking about independence. And everybody seemed to come to the same conclusion. And I found it fascinating.

They say, where's the candidate that's economically conservative, that believes the United States should be involved in the world, that believes that women should have control of their own bodies. And they just just went down, went down the list and they were trying to make the point, their their view that you're making that you're about to becoming more polarized, which is actually driving a lot of Americans into looking for a third choice. Yeah, that's part of the point that you have the parties in the hands of a smaller and smaller number of people.

So inevitably becomes the extremists. The Democrats happily have maintained, I think, a more moderate stance. But when you see what's happened in the Republicans and with Trump, you have to look at the fact that many people have left the Republican Party as part of it. But let's take a look here at the trend, because what's also happening is that the red states are getting redder and the blue states are getting bluer. So the increase in presidential registrations has moved toward blue states have gotten bluer, as I said. Red states have gotten redder.

There are only four states or five states that have gone the other way. Nevada and Utah, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Rhode Island have become more red. And Utah and Kansas, oddly enough, have become slightly more blue. But basically, the trend is that as party registrations move, the red states get redder, the blue states get bluer. Why does this matter? This matters because our elections are being decided in a smaller and smaller number of places. Back here in 2000, 47 percent of the elections by county, we're looking at this by county, were decided by 20 percentage points or less. Today, only 22% of our elections are being decided by 20 percentage points or less. That means that all the rest is 80% almost of our elections are being decided by more than 20

percentage points in a given county, which means again, that a smaller and smaller number of voters are essentially deciding our elections because we have so many uncompetitive races. So, Steve, your third chart looks at primary turnout, and I'm curious how you think this plays into all of this. So given what I just said about how more and more elections are decided in fewer and fewer places, the primaries become more important. And you go back to my point about the decrease in party registration and you combine that. And what you find is that the number of voters who can't vote in a primary because they are not registered to a party has gone from 15 million to 27 million. So in these voters are

effectively shut out from deciding who the nominee is. And therefore, since the nominee has become so much more important, less able to influence the outcome of an election. And then you talk about the fact, you talk about turnout. So turnout actually in general elections has gone up a bit. We've succeeded in convincing people they should vote 38 percent to 47 percent. Turnout in primaries hasn't moved at all. It's stuck down to 20 percent. So only 20 percent of Americans are voting in these primaries. In New York and Virginia, in the last primary, only three percent of people voted. And these are people deciding the nominees in states that are often

not competitive. And so, in effect, they're choosing the winner. It's such an important and interesting point. We looked at Steve around Iowa when there was the shock that Donald Trump had won so big. And then you looked at it. Actually, he won just over 50 percent of a tiny turnout among Republicans in the state of Iowa. Morning, Joe. Economic analyst Steve Ratner, bringing the heat, bringing the charts. Thanks, Steve, as always. We appreciate it. So, Sam, let's talk about the impact of a growing number of independents on a national election, which is what we're seeing right now. You kind of call the people Joe was talking to at the school event last night, the normies, people who are not immersed in Twitter and cable news 24 hours a day, outliving their lives, and they just want government to do things and stop the nonsense and actually get something done. What is the impact? Let's just look at this election right now. Who does Joe Biden, who does Donald Trump need to be talking to to swing them?

Right. Well, I think there's like two types of independents. There's the normies, who are people who just don't want to be totally engaged in the fight 24 hours a day, who want some sort of centrist model of governance, and attitudinally, I think, just want people to chill out, right? Those are the traditional independents. And then there's, like, independents who, you know, maybe support Marjorie Taylor Greene or maybe support RFK Jr., who, you know, really have a sort of a weird convergence of policy interests and political interests, and maybe some sort of skepticism vaccine for interests, for instance,

that gets involved in governments. Those are not your traditional third party, moderate and independent. So I just want to make that distinction. But both of them will have a huge impact on this election. I mean, it's possible that RFK Jr.'s candidacy will get, you know, double digit support potentially in many of these critical swing states. And who knows who that takes the most from. We haven't had that type of level of support since Ross Perot in the election. But yeah, I mean, for Biden and for Trump, they're going to have to contort in certain ways, I would suspect, to try to appeal to those types of voters. It's just trying to figure out which class of independents will take the most from their candidacy.