Morning Joe - Morning Joe 3/14/23

Episode Date: March 14, 2023

Trump criticizes DeSantis in first Iowa speech

But you have to remember, Ron was a disciple of Paul Ryan, who is a rhino loser who currently is destroying Fox and would constantly vote against entitlements. He would just vote against, remember that, the wheelchair over the cliffs that Democrats used it. The wheelchair over the cliff commercial, very effective. That was about him. But Ryan, Paul Ryan's a big reason that Mitt Romney, I'm not a big fan of Mitt Romney, lost his election. And to be honest with you, Ron, reminds me a lot of Mitt Romney. So I don't think you're going to be doing so well here, but we're going to find out.

But those are the facts. Oh, if Ron only reminded us of Mitt Romney, I think a lot of people would be less worried. There's Donald Trump doing what Democrats love to see Donald Trump doing. Shredding the Republican Party, attacking the Republican Party, tearing to pieces the Republican Party. It's not enough that he led to their defeats in 2017 and 2018 and 2019 and 2020 and 2021 and 2022. Now he's determined to do it in 2024, going after Republicans and creating a civil war. And that was just part of Donald Trump's rant about Ron DeSantis last night in Iowa. The former president had a lot to say yesterday about the Florida governor. He is obsessed with him, obsessed with Ron DeSantis. We'll have more of his comments straight ahead. A full on Republican civil war politically between,

well, Donald Trump and everybody else. Meanwhile, De Santas is backing a far right stance of the war in Ukraine. It's a complete change from where he was even a year ago, saying that stopping a Russian invasion of a sovereign country in Europe is not vital to America's interest. It's not what he was saying a short time ago. Also, we're going to have legal analysis on Michael Cohen's testimony before the Manhattan grand jury investigating Trump's hush money payments to Stormy Daniels and what it means. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It's Tuesday, March 14th. With us, we have the host of Way Too Early, White House Bureau chief and Politico, Jonathan Lemire, also Pulitzer Prize winning columnist of The Washington Post, Eugene Robinson. Also U.S. special correspondent for BBC News, Katty Kay. And we'll make sure Katty doesn't tweet anything today that stops her from being able to announce Premier League games this weekend. Wow. That escalated quickly, Katty, but we're not going to ask you about it. We're not going to. I do want to ask Jonathan Lemire, though. Jonathan, you got a couple of boys, right?

I do. Eleven and eight. They play baseball. They play baseball. They do. Both both good ballplayers, Little League players. OK, I'm going to give them a little tip here. There's Uncle Joe's base baseball clinic right here on Morning Joe. Now, for people who watch this program, they know that through the years, we've

looked at first pitches, whether it was from well, whoever it was from. I'm not going to mention names, but you know, their throwing motions lacked something. We heard Ron DeSantis had a, you know, this guy played baseball at Yale. He had a softball interview with Brian Kilmeade at Fox.

And just look, here's a clip of them throwing the ball back and forth. They're talking here, right? See that, Jonathan? Yeah, they're chatting. Look at this throwing motion. It's a strange thing from Ron DeSantis here. Let's see if we can see it one more time here. It's, uh, wee!

You know, DeSantis literally. Do we have that again? Look at this. Okay, so here he is. Do we have, wee! Do we have that again? Look at this. Okay, so here he is. Do we have that in slow-mo? I want to ISO this, and just so your boys will learn how not to throw a ball. It's just like, do we have slow-mo here? Okay, ready?

No, okay, you don't do this. So, okay, come to me, because we can't keep showing the kids the wrong way to do it. Again, this guy, Jonathan, let's do a split screen with Jonathan. He'll know this. Jonathan, this guy played baseball in college. You go back and you, no. You come through. You kind of bring it.

You go back. You bring it through. You follow. It's whether you're golfing. It's whether you're throwing the baseball, it's the follow-up. And I know he's in a suit, first of all. What a goober for being in a suit in an interview.

If you're staging an interview, just throw your shirt. Take the jacket off. What, were you raised in an Ivy League school? An Ivy League law school? I don't understand. Again, he played college baseball.

And he's like, wee! No, you look at, what is that? Yeah, yeah. What is that? Help me, Jonathan. So baseball is a big part of the DeSantis story, right? He played in the Little League World Series. He played college baseball at Yale.

And the form here is just shaky. I mean, yeah, first of all, take the jacket off. Also, you've got to go all the way back. The T, you form the T. You learn that in Little League early on. And then you come over the shoulder. And he's like short-arming it there. Also, maybe use two hands on the catch.

You go right through like that. This is not hard. I mean, Kilmeade's not exactly whipping it in there either, we got to say. But it's a softball interview. It is literally a softball interview. But Brian Kilmeade, as best I know, didn't play Division I college baseball. Ron DeSantis did. But apparently, he's gotten rusty.

No excuses. Lacking, yeah. It's tough to say. No excuses. Hey, TJ, do we have Barack Obama bowling by any chance? I miss those days. We need – get us that, too. It's been a while.

All right. So, anyway, Caddy K., I'm sorry you had to go through all of that and hear all of that. I'm just enjoying you and Jonathan having fantasies about being pro baseball players again. I'm all the way back. It clearly just doesn't change ever, right? You can't take the boy out of the man. It's not a fantasy about being a professional baseball player, Caddy.

It's about like the fundamentals. As my coach would say, Gene, it's the fundamentals. It's the fundamentals, Joe. It's the blocking and tackling of football, and it's the throwing of baseball. It's just you come through the top. These guys that throw like this, do you get that, Gene? Like, nobody, I don't get it. I don't know.

It's a weird motion. He doesn't bring the arm back the way he should. He doesn't follow through the way he should. And it's a weird sort of weight shift that he's doing. It's not well timed. That's not the way you teach

your sons how to throw a baseball. But, you know, he did play baseball, I guess. No, he went Whee! Jim just gets an Oscar for the sound effects. Yeah, that's right.

This guy was captain at Yale. I mean, come on, man. I got to go, but we're going to find some more. We got to find some more. I got to believe. I'm just going to say he's just tired. But you just don't forget fundamentals, do you, Gene? We're not having a hard time.

Don't forget your fundamentals. And, you know, we think of presidents, because he wants to be president, let's face it, who've done a sport well, right? So you watch George W. Bush, you know, throwing that ball over the plate, that first pitch. That was pretty good. Barack Obama playing basketball. He can play basketball.

Played basketball. Been presidents who were good golfers. But that throw was just not the way you want to teach it. Not the way you want to see it. not the way you want to see it. No, man, no. Okay, so, Jonathan, we've helped your kids. We know your kids wake up at 6 a.m. to watch Morning Joe to see what Uncle Joe is saying.

And Uncle Joe's baseball clinic this morning, we've done it. We're going to show some more later throughout the day, I'm sure. We're going to help people with their follow through next on golfing. You really it is all really about the follow through. But right now to you, Katty K. Yeah. With the news. I think I'm going to channel my inner Mika here.

It is 608 45 seconds. We are getting to the news. And by the way, on the sports and presidential ambitions, the windsurfing never helped John Kerry very much. OK, let's do it. Donald Trump's presidential campaign made its first stop in Iowa yesterday. But before his plane even landed there, the former president was criticizing Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, as Joe said. It started yesterday afternoon on social media with a video in which Trump said the state of Florida was doing great before Ron DeSantis, while praising former Republican

Governor Rick Scott and even Democratic Governor Charlie Crist for their time in office. Yeah. While on the plane to Iowa, Politico reports the former president spent about 10 minutes going after DeSantis, taking credit for helping him win the Florida governor's race in 2018 and expressing some regret that he had endorsed him. Trump continued to call out DeSantis while on stage last night in Davenport, Iowa. That is one of the cities the Florida governor visited last week during his book tour. The former president used nicknames for DeSantis and rattled off claims about the governor's

voting record while he was a member of Congress. OK, so remember this. Ron DeSantis. Did anyone ever hear of DeSantis? DeSantimonious. DeSantis. voting record while he was a member of Congress. is fine on ethanol. Don't worry about it. He strongly opposed ethanol and fought against it at every turn. And he's going to do that again because people that come out early for something, that's where they go. That's what it is. So, you know, he may do something politically, but he was very, very bad on ethanol. He fought it all the way. And he also fought against social security. He wanted to decimate it and voted against it three times. Voted against Social Security, that's a bad one. A lot of people don't know that, but I think they've been finding out over the last four weeks. One of the reasons that we're zooming in the polls,

perhaps, maybe that's one, maybe it's other things too. It's really based on what we've done, I think. And on Social Security, well, we're at it. He wanted the minimum retirement age to be lifted to people that are 70 years old, a substantial increase over what it is right now. That's a big increase. And he also voted to severely cut Medicare. I will not be cutting Medicare, and I will not be cutting Social Security. We're leaving the age limit. So somebody is clearly getting under the former president's skin, Joe.

And you know how in physics they talk about action and reaction? I suspect you're not going to have much reaction from Ron DeSantis because he does not want to get into this fight yet. No, not yet. And Jonathan Lemire, this guy is obviously, Ron DeSantis is obviously so in Donald Trump's brain. First, I just get the hypocrisy is always great. He said, oh, it's great to great to listen to. It's so funny where he goes, oh, somebody who's come out for ethanol. Usually the way they come out at first, that's really where they are and that's where they stay. Says the man who spent his life being a pro-choice Democrat, who's now supposedly pro-life, who spent his life supporting gun control, now he's Mr. Second Amendment. You could go down the list with Donald Trump.

He's changed. He even said if DeSantis doesn't run, he'll change his views on DeSantis. So, again, he is obsessed with Ron DeSantis. But I will tell you, you read the coverage from yesterday and maybe you can add to it. Trump went back to Davenport, Iowa, where DeSantis had a thousand people. New York Times reporting yesterday that Trump, when he came in, shut the town down by 2 p.m. and it was 2400 people standing room only there, that the center of the gravity of the Republican Party still centers around this guy who right now the over under on indictments. Is it two and a half?

So I'm not sure whether you want to go under or over. with two to four indictments facing this guy, he's still the center of the Republican Party, which tells you all you need to know about the base of the Republican Party. Yeah, a lot of action on DraftKings right now on Trump indictments. People banging me over on that. You're right, though, that the last events the last few weeks, despite the increasing legal peril, has really crystallized that this is still very much Trump's Republican Party. His aides were quick to send around those pictures yesterday showing that he dramatically drew a bigger crowd than DeSantis did in that same Iowa town, Davenport. And truthfully, let's remember, Trump, Iowa's never been one of his best states either. And yet he's an early sign of strength there. But the obsession with DeSantis is real.

And it's twofold. Some of it is just this Donald Trump. Of course, he's Donald Trump. He's jealous. He's resentful. DeSantis is the governor of his home state. But his aides also say there's some, and I'll emphasize some, strategy to this. They feel like if they can make life as difficult as possible for DeSantis now, it might dissuade DeSantis from

even getting in the race at all. A preview, like this is how tough it's going to be. We're going to beat you up each and every day. You don't want this. Why don't you wait four years? The counter to that, though, the risk is that by signaling all his attacks on DeSantis, I mean, Trump's not really saying anything about Haley or about Pompeo or John Bolton. He only talks about Pence in the context of January 6th. By focusing all of his attacks on DeSantis, he's also elevating DeSantis. He's sort of raising his profile as the Trump counter. So this certainly could backfire, at least for now. All signs are pointing to DeSantis jumping in the race once the Florida legislative session

ends in a couple of months and he gets that pesky law changed that allows him to run for other office while being governor of Florida. Yeah. You know, Gene, though, it's just it's absolutely fascinating. Again, Donald Trump obsessed with Ron DeSantis, Ron DeSantis not punching back. But Trump's obsession goes so far as him actually crediting Charlie Crist, talking about a non-person in Republican politics, he praises Charlie Crist for being a really good governor. This reminds me of when he said he might support Stacey Abrams. Again, it has nothing to do with the party. It has nothing to do with the political movement he's behind. It has nothing to do with the party. It has nothing to do with the political movement he's behind. It has nothing to do with issues.

Again, this should serve as one more stark reminder to a Republican Party that just keeps losing. Donald Trump is only interested in himself, and he will set fire to the party and to the movement and to any cause they believe in if it gets in his way. Yeah. Is there anybody out there who didn't think that Donald Trump would be the one to launch the wave of Republican on Republican violence? And here he goes. And that's what I don't get about DeSantis and Nikki Haley and others who are thinking about getting into the race. They don't want to talk about Trump. They don't want to mention his name. They don't want to talk about Trump. They don't want to mention his name.

They don't want to say anything about him. That's fine. But he is going to go after you. You know he's going to do that. And, yes, he is elevating DeSantis by going after him. But he's just going to try to savage him every opportunity he gets. And by doing that, Trump raises his own profile. He you know, he it's like greatest hits for the for the base. This time the target is DeSantis,

you know, instead of Biden, whatever. They love to see him on the attack like that. I got to say, he sounded yesterday more like, you know, the Donald Trump we've come to know and many of us loathe and fear, but we've come to know in past campaigns. This is the first time that he seemed like, you know, Trump on the stump the way we've seen him before, that sort of aimlessness and drifting, rambling, all self-pity. There's some of that as well yesterday. But it was, you know, he's getting in shape for a campaign. Yeah. I mean, it was interesting, actually, though, from our NBC colleagues that when he was talking about DeSantis Trump was interesting, actually, though, from our NBC colleagues that when he was talking about DeSantis, Trump in Iowa, actually the room kind of raucous crowd suddenly went kind

of quiet. So it's going to be I think he's going to have to measure those crowds if he's going to go after DeSantis, because some of them say they like DeSantis, too. Anyway, as he weighs a 2024 presidential run, Ron DeSantis is calling on the United States to detangle itself from the war in Ukraine. In an answer to a Fox News questionnaire released this week, DeSantis is calling on the United States to detangle itself from the war in Ukraine. In an answer to a Fox News questionnaire released this week, DeSantis said, quote, While the U.S. has many vital national interests, becoming further entangled in a territorial dispute between Ukraine and Russia is not one of them. He later accused the Biden administration of driving Russia into a de facto alliance with China and empowering

Putin's war machine at America's expense. But back in 2015, when Obama was president, DeSantis had this to say, quote, We in the Congress have been urging the president, I've been to provide arms to Ukraine. They want to fight their good fight. They're not asking us to fight it for them. And the president has steadfastly refused. And I think that that's a mistake. That was back then. DeSantis is not alone in his current rhetoric. Here is some of what former President Donald Trump has said about the war, including his most recent comments where he suggested negotiating off a part of Ukraine to give it to Russia. I could have negotiated. At worst, I could have made a deal to take over something.

You know, there are certain areas that are Russian-speaking areas, frankly. But you could have worked a deal. I was also the only president where Russia didn't take over a country during my term. Russia took over because I got along with Vladimir Putin very well. I say, Vladimir, don't do it. You know, you and I are friends. Don't take over any countries because, you know, Moscow will be hit very hard. And there was a television screen.

And I said, this is genius. Putin declares a big portion of the Ukraine of Ukraine. Putin declares it as independent. Oh, that's wonderful. So Putin is now saying it's independent, a large section of Ukraine. I said, how smart is that? And he's going to go in and be a peacekeeper. That's the strongest peace force. We could use that on our southern border. That's the strongest peace force I've ever seen. There were more army tanks than I've ever seen. They're going to keep peace all right.

No, but think of it. Here's a guy who's very savvy. I know him very well. Very, very well. So, Joe, this starts, of course, with once again, Donald Trump expressing kind words for Vladimir Putin. But I think there's something actually far more dangerous about this. This is now DeSantis with suggesting that this is deeming

this war a territorial dispute between Ukraine and Russia instead of Russia invading Ukraine, suggesting that the Biden administration, the U.S. is too involved in that war and that we should pull back. That puts DeSantis where Trump is and very different where most Republicans are, including others like Mike Pence, Mike Pompeo, who are rumored to be running for president. So that means the two leading voices, because right now this is a two man race. The two leading voices of the Republican Party are both saying the U.S. is too involved in that war. What does that do? That gives credence to Vladimir Putin's theory that time is on his side, that he can wait out this war. He can wait until the next presidential election. And if he continues to grind on, keeps the battle going through 2024,

there's a pretty good chance that if a Republican is elected, that Republican, well, will back off and may as well let Putin take part of Ukraine. Well, you just heard Donald Trump there. This is genius. It's wonderful talking about the invasion of Ukraine. We we should do that. We could use that in America. Donald Trump says talks about how savvy he is. The Russians have now lost 100000, 200000 troops. It's been the worst decision for Vladimir Putin and not only in his reign, but probably he's going to be seen as a guy responsible for for the complete collapse of Russia in time. But, Katie Kay, this is dangerous, not just because of the message it sends to Vladimir Putin, where he says, well, all I need to do is try to interfere in the next American presidential election,

help a Republican, DeSantis or Trump, get elected, and they're going to do my bidding for me. They're going to undercut NATO. They're going to do all the things that Trump did back when he was president. So it sends the wrong message, Ron DeSantis. But, of course, the thing that really concerns me just as much or more, and I'm sure you as well, with all the diplomats and leaders I've spoken with over the past year, with all the generals, admirals, war strategists I've spoken to over the past year. The biggest concern is that our allies don't stand shoulder to shoulder with us.

European leaders telling me, sure, Biden's fine. We're doing great with Biden. America's back. But is America back for two years, three years, four years? And then we get Donald Trump again. And now they see Ron DeSantis, who's the second most likely person to be president of the United States other than perhaps Joe Biden. He's also talking about a retreat. He's not talking about leading from behind. Republicans trashed Barack Obama for saying that. Ron DeSantis is talking about something far worse. He's talking about trashing the international order. He's talking about dismissing a full scale invasion of a sovereign European nation as a border dispute. This is so reckless. And and I've got to I've got to think this morning. There's a lot of stuff that people talk about in American politics that don't make it across this across to Europe and across the world.

This one does, because here's another example of the Republican Party just basically saying to hell with it. We're going to throw in our lot with Vladimir Putin. Yes. I mean, ever since the 2020 election, there's obviously been concerns in Europe that this could be a reprieve. It was great to have Joe Biden, but Donald Trump could be back again. Now, especially with what Ron DeSantis is saying right now on Ukraine, there is a realization amongst European allies that even if Donald Trump is not the Republican candidate, it's likely to be Ron DeSantis. And therefore, whoever is nominated on the Republican side is going to run as the anti-Ukraine war candidate. And you have to give the Republican candidate in a divided America a 49 percent chance of winning. You just have to do that because it's

divided. It's chosen by such a small number of people. And that then makes Europeans think, well, hold on a second. If America is not going to be here beyond the 2024 election or potentially not going to be on the 2024 election if a Republican wins. Do we really want to be committing all of those tanks quite as quickly as we were going to or even looking at F-16s or our jets as quickly as we might have been going to? You know, an already anxious Europe gets even more anxious about its actual long term commitments to Ukraine if America is not going to be there. This Ukraine is now on America's political timetable. And that's a scary prospect if you're sitting in Kiev. It is a scary prospect. And how strange for those of us who grew up,

followed foreign policy and the politics around in the United States to now see that at the top of the Republican Party, Ronald Reagan's Republican Party, You actually have the surrender caucus leading the pack in in those running for president of the United States. This is nothing, nothing like Republicans have seen over the past generation, over the past 40, 50 years. And as Jonathan Oire said, I mean, this is it's just shocking coming from the Republican Party and and and the message it sends across the world. It's frightening. But we will continue to follow this. Let's talk right now, though, about the banking crisis. President Biden addressed the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank yesterday morning, and he tried to reassure the country that the United States banking system is not failing and will not fail. This is what he said. Look, the bottom line is this. Americans can rest assured that our banking system is safe.

Your deposits are safe. Let me also assure you, we will not stop at this. We'll do whatever is needed. No losses will be borne by the taxpayers. Let me repeat that. No losses will be borne by the taxpayers. Instead, the money will to strengthen the rules for banks to make it less likely that this kind of bank failure happens again. Let's bring in CNBC's Dom Chiu. Dom, the president tried to reassure investors, bankers, Wall Street. It didn't work for the most part with stocks for regional banks. What's your read this morning going into another day? How high is the fear level? So, Joe, I guess the best way to put it is it could have caused an even bigger panic in the financial system. Those failures, they appear to be contained for now, but it's not without being damaged, done, being done already. I guess, of course, there's the direct impact, which is the failure of both of those banks in California and New York. But it's also about the wipeout of shareholders and pretty much both and the likely wipeout of some of the unsecured lenders or creditors to both Signature and Silicon Valley.

But there have also been these widespread hits, as you point out, to all pretty much every bank in America in yesterday's trade, especially the smaller regional ones, even without the same kinds of problems that faced both Silicon Valley and Signature. Now, bank stocks as a whole, both small and large, saw their stock prices plummet pretty precipitously yesterday. Those actions, though, by the Federal Reserve, by the FDIC, by the Treasury, have stabilized things from an operational perspective for these banks. The government and central bank are now going to backstop things, right? Any future potential losses, not borne by taxpayers. The assets, in essence, Joe, have been backed up at these banks. They have almost been guaranteed by the U.S. government. But this now means that in order for the banking system to truly find its footing, find its sea legs, it comes down to whether or not Americans feel confident enough to keep their deposits at a bank, a regional one. Now, if everything goes as usual, things are going to

be fine. But the bigger issue now is how long it takes for Americans to feel OK about being at local or regional banks rather than doing what many folks have already done. And by the way, Joe, we've already seen anecdotal hard evidence that many people have moved billions of dollars from these smaller regional banks into banks like JP Morgan, Citigroup, Wells Fargo, Bank of America. So if you don't get over that crisis of confidence, then you're still going to have instability on deposits. And there's no doubt it's still there. It's going to stay there, it seems, for a while. So I think the White House and the rest of Washington is going to have a lot more work ahead of them

because a lot of investors have taken their money out of regional banks and are moving them to the big four, big five. Now, let me ask you really quickly before we go to break. There's been a debate. There was a simmering debate yesterday over whether deregulation in 2018 may have contributed to what we saw last week. It seems that there were some regulations, some regulatory constraints that were lifted that helped Signature and others become far more aggressive in how they invested their money. What's your take on that? So this is a debate. And the reason why is because the case being made on either side

has merit here. There has been a deregulation, and it may, in fact, have played a part in this whole process. With regard to what happened at Silicon Valley Bank in particular, and maybe to a certain degree a signature, was this idea that there were repercussions from Fed policy about lowering the value of U.S. Treasury debt, the prices paid by raising interest rates, that had management issues come to the forefront at Silicon Valley. Because of the types of

customers that Silicon Valley Bank had that needed money, needed their deposits in a quick, kind of more quick fashion, because many of these startup companies are early stage, they kind of burn cash, so to speak, all of those things. If you did have those regulations in place, they may have helped. But let me put it this way, Joe, before I let you go to break here. The banks in this country, from a capital perspective, have never been healthier. And that was the lesson learned during the great financial crisis. So whether or not there are other effects from the Fed policy that are going to have impacts on other banks, that remains to be seen. But Moody's, by the way, the credit rating agency,

has already placed six banks under possible review for credit downgrades. So there are still ripple effects coming, Joe. No, boy, you can tell they're coming. All right. CNBC's Dom Chiu, thank you so much. Katty, what do we have next? Yeah, still ahead on Morning Joe. Republicans in a battleground state appear to have learned nothing from 2022 because they're backing an election denier again for Senate in 2024. We'll tell you who that is. And an update on Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, who's recovering from a concussion after a fall last week.

Also ahead, the Biden administration strikes a deal with the UK and Australia, a move that's seen as a counter to China. We're going to dig into that coming up just ahead on Morning Joe. The Fortune. Money for Donald Trump says his client will not appear before the grand jury investigating that hush money payment to adult film actress Stormy Daniels during the 2016 presidential campaign. The new comments come after the former president's legal team met with him over the weekend in Florida. Trump's former fixer and attorney, Michael Cohen, appeared before the grand jury yesterday, telling reporters beforehand that Trump needs to be held accountable. My goal, this is not revenge. What this is, is about accountability. I don't want to see anyone, including Donald Trump, indicted, prosecuted,

convicted, incarcerated, simply because I fundamentally disagree with them. This is all about accountability. He needs to be held accountable for his dirty deeds. Joining us now is former U.S. attorney and an MSNBC contributor, Barbara McQuaid. Barbara, thank you for joining us this morning. So how how serious are you taking Michael Cohen's appearance before the grand jury, given that his own background, of course, in which he ended up in jail might make him something of a less than stellar witness? I think the fact that he has testified before the grand jury says to us a couple of things. One is that the Manhattan District attorney's office is very serious about

bringing an indictment. They have met with him something like 19 or 20 times. They would not be putting him before the grand jury unless they were satisfied that they could prove the case and that they believed in themselves. It would be unethical to sponsor false testimony. And so I imagine that during those 19 or 20 sessions they have spent with him, they've spent a lot of time sanding down the edges, asking him hard questions, cross-examining him themselves to see how he holds up, and trying to corroborate his testimony with other witnesses or with documents so that a jury doesn't have to rely on believing him alone. So I think that the fact that they put him in means

that they're serious about going forward. I also think that the fact that he is now testified before the grand jury and he'll be back on Wednesday means that they're at the end. Inviting Donald Trump and this sort of star witness is something you would do at the end of your investigation. So, Barbara, we know from Trump's attorneys that the former president has declined the invitation. He's not going to appear before the grand jury. So with that off the board, what moves are left here? A few subsequent interviews with Michael Cohen, perhaps. But how do you see this playing out over the next few weeks? And what else could the Trump team do? I think we're at the end, Willie. I think that that invitation for Donald Trump to appear would have been the very last thing the grand jury would have done. You

know, it is it isn't compelling someone to come in. It's inviting someone to come in. And the purpose there is to give him an opportunity to tell his side of the story if he so chooses. And so, you know, it sounds like he's declined that invitation, which is probably a good strategy and happens in most instances. And so I think the only thing that's likely to be left would be a prosecutor's summation of the evidence. So it may be that they need to come back next week for the prosecutors to sort of synthesize all that they've heard and present possible options for charging before the grand jury and then to take that vote. Barb, how do you evaluate the strength of this case from what we know now, the strength of the Stormy Daniels payoff case? Well, it seems that the first part of this case, the falsification of business records,

is probably relatively simple to prove. Between Michael Cohen and the folks at the National Enquirer, other officials, we know that Kellyanne Conway and Hope Hicks have been in. They may have had some insights about all of that. It seems like that predicate, the false documents, is probably a strong charge. That is only a misdemeanor, though. And to make that a felony, you have to show that the purpose of it was to conceal some other crime. And so that's the part that's a little bit unknown to the public. What is that other crime and what is the evidence of it? There's been some speculation that it could be a

campaign finance charge. That is that this was designed to be a donation that was undeclared to the campaign. So we'll have to wait and see about the strength of that secondary part that would make this a felony. All right. Former U.S. attorney Barbara McQuaid, thank you so much. Let me just ask before you go, Barbara, would you and Gene like to say anything particularly nasty about Ohio State this morning? Because as Gene said, after Ohio State lost his favorite New Yorker cartoon ever, were dogs saying, it's not enough that we win. Cats must lose. I'm curious if that's your zero-sum game attitude toward Ohio State as well. Well, my two favorite teams are Michigan and whoever's playing Ohio State.

Exactly. There you go. Exactly. All right. you go. Exactly. All right. All right. Thanks so much, Barb. We greatly appreciate it. So, Jonathan, I think we need to clarify something here. Now, the two and a half over under those are for Trump indictments. We're not talking about convictions. Let me check and see here the Morning Joe line, which, of course, I remind you, I remind you, we put the over under in the last French election and I'm dead serious at 57.5% when everybody else said it was too close to call. And that's exactly where it ended up.

OK, there's no line yet on actual convictions, but two and a half for the indictment. I think that's pretty good. Would you go over or under right now, Lamir? I'm going to take I'm going to take the over. I think I'm going to go with three indictments. I think convictions are an entirely different matter. And we set that aside. We'll revisit those odds down the road and the through line,

by the way, from the French election to the criminal peril facing Donald Trump. Spot on. This is what we do here on Morning Joe. I'm taking the over. What about you? If the line's two and a half? I he's above the law, right? Donald Trump is the one person I've seen in my adult life that's always above the law. So I'll take the under. I mean, Georgia should be a slam dunk. It really should. The documents case should be a slam dunk. It really doesn't matter what everybody else did, because everybody else actually responded to the crisis. Well, I will tell you, and it's very interesting, in the last few weeks, I've been hearing an awful lot about the weakness of this Manhattan case, not getting the indictment, but actually getting the conviction. And I find it hard to believe that a prosecutor is going to

bring an indictment until he or she is sure that they've got a more than reasonable chance of getting that conviction. So I'm not sure yet that they move in Manhattan, though all of the signs suggest right now that they are moving forward with an indictment. But it is facing some skepticism from legal critics who have been basically saying since 2016, Donald Trump was, you know, a couple of weeks away from going to jail. Yeah, no, I agree with that. We've heard legal expert after legal expert rank this one, the Manhattan case, fourth of the four in terms of the strength of case. And remember this DA, the same DA a year ago suggested he wasn't going to bring charges. He was walking away from the

case. And obviously he changed his mind. And you certainly would think that, you know, this case would charge will only be brought up on the legal merits. But of course, there's a political aspect of this, too. It's Manhattan. It's Donald Trump. We know the story there. But I agree, though, if you had asked me a month ago, I would have said, no, this one would not be one of the convictions, indictments. And therefore, I would have taken the under. It sure seems like this is going to happen too. So that pushes me over the two and a half. It really does. I've got my DraftKings app here. It really does.

And of course, we do this all in just tongue in cheek, everybody. You don't have to freak out. That's it. It could be over. It could be. It could be over. But right now, the fact that he's facing so much legal peril, Katty K, the fact that he could be indicted in four different cases

and he's only becoming more popular with the Republican base as the weeks go by, looking more dominant when he goes out on the road, again, suggests something about a Republican base in 2023 that continues selecting election deniers to lead their state parties. They've learned nothing from all of their losses. I mean, look at his crowd in Davenport, right? I mean, he turns up in Davenport. Yeah, big crowd. Ron DeSantis had been there. And Ron DeSantis has an awful lot of work to do to catch up to the name recognition,

the national name recognition of Donald Trump, and to try to win over those people who are still clearly very loyal to the president right around the country. It's not I don't think this is going to be easy for Ron DeSantis and it's not going to get any easier for him when he decides to take Trump on head on, which he's going to have to do at some point when they're at least when they're up on the debate stage. And that's when Trump's the people around Trump that I speak to are very confident that Trump manages to do to DeSantis what he did to all of the others in 2016. Yeah. I mean, DeSantis' only hope, and I'm not being facetious in the least, is to just refuse to debate Donald Trump, because if he

goes on a debate stage with Donald Trump, he'll get mowed down. Charlie Crist even made it made him look lost. And the Democratic Party wasn't behind Charlie. Charlie knew he was going to lose that race because he was getting no support. DeSantis is supposed to be, you know, this this this great presidential hope rising. And he looked absolutely terrible there. So, yeah, Caddy, it's that's that's really for DeSantis and Nikki Haley and Mike Pence. If they're going to run against Donald Trump, they've got to go after Donald Trump. And none of them have the stomach to do that. Yeah, I mean, actually, I was at the gridiron on Saturday night when Pence made those comments

about Donald Trump and history holding him accountable. It was the most forceful I'd heard Mike Pence be, certainly kind of in a public setting. He may be saying that behind closed doors to donors, but he was pretty forceful

about January the 6th and about Donald Trump's role in January the 6th and the fact that the election was not stolen, that he had no right to try and overturn it. So let's see if that's what he starts saying in public, especially when he's actually directly

up against Donald Trump, assuming he runs. Coming up, President Biden met with the leaders of the UK and Australia yesterday to announce a new partnership aimed at countering Chinese aggression. We'll have the latest on the rising tensions with Beijing coming up next on Morning Joe. that was president biden yesterday where he held a trilateral meeting with the uk and australia's prime ministers at a naval base point in San Diego. During the meeting, the leaders announced an agreement to provide Australia with conventionally armed but nuclear-powered submarines. Initially, Australia will buy up to five US subs before the three countries ultimately build a new model of submarine. It will be based on a design developed by the UK using American submarine technologies. The submarines will be nuclear powered, but will not be armed with

nuclear weapons. Yesterday, President Biden spoke more about the alliance and what this deal means. Today, we're announcing the steps to carry out our first project under AUKUS and developing Australia's conventionally armed nuclear powered submarine capacity. AUKUS and developing Australia's conventionally armed nuclear-powered submarine capacity. AUKUS has one overriding objective, to enhance the stability of the Indo-Pacific amid rapidly shifting global dynamics. In this first project, this first project is only beginning. More partnerships, more potential, more peace and security in the region lies ahead. Simply stated, we're putting ourselves in the strongest possible position to navigate the challenges of today and tomorrow together, together.

Joe Biden, this is a, you know, it's a really strategic alliance between America's ally in the Pacific, America's ally in Europe. And this is just the beginning of something that is very clearly aimed at countering China. Well, you know, and, Katty, how fascinating it is that a couple of days after we hear from China, anger that they're being contained, that there's a containment policy around China, that Joe Biden would go out and make this very public declaration with leaders of two other countries. Just absolutely fascinating. Let's let's bring in right now NBC News foreign correspondent Janice Mackey-Frayer. And for all of the difficulties Janice may have reporting in Xi's China. One is not

that she has to wake up really early to do her hits from over there because it is 6.53 p.m. in Beijing right now, but 6.53 in the morning. Janice, thank you so much for being with us. It's great to have you at 30 Rock. I was just I was a little surprised. I'm going to go to Jean in one second. But Janice, I'm curious, what's your take about Joe Biden doing this in a very public way so soon after you had she angrily denounced the United States for their containment policy. Well, it's also coming after what China sees as a string of anti-China events by the U.S., the hearings in Washington on COVID origins, the expansion of strategic military partnerships in Asia Pacific, specifically putting American troops and material back in military bases in the Philippines. This coming at the same time that Japan is expanding its defense budget and this AUKUS deal that China has criticized for the past 18 months as the building of an Asian-style NATO. So it's China fighting back. China's foreign minister

saying himself that it's impossible for China to not fight back. And in Xi Jinping's speech, where he talked about the containment, the suppression, the encircling of China. He specifically named the U.S. He called out the U.S. as leading Western nations on these Cold War style tactics. I've been in China for 10 years. I've been there for the decade of Xi Jinping. And I don't recall that ever happening before, him specifically saying that it's the U.S. leading this Western charge. So there are some very interesting dynamics that are taking shape in these past weeks. That's looking more like a standoff between China and the U.S. at a time when both sides are still claiming that there could be some room for discussion. And, Jean, it is, in fact, the case that the United States, you know, we've talked about looking toward Asia now for about 20 years.

Presidents, past presidents have talked about the Asia focus about as much as Donald Trump talked about Transportation Week. And we never did it. But now we're doing it in the Philippines, flexing our muscles in Philippines, in Guam, with Japan now really agreeing to move well beyond any post-war defense budgets. You look at Australian or deal with a nuclear powered subs. I've got to say, if you're China and you're looking at this, you do have to be worried that the United States is finally getting their act

together and getting their focus on China's expansionism. Yeah, absolutely. The pivot to Asia, which we've been talking about for the better part of 20 years, is actually happening under the Biden administration. And when I talk to people at the Chinese embassy here in Washington for some time, they've been taking the line that she just took. They've been complaining about that they're on the defensive, that the United States is trying to contain China, to constrain China. Janice, my question is, I know it's difficult to judge public opinion in China, but what do ordinary citizens think about this containment idea? And do you think public opinion is generally on Xi's side? Well, to a great extent, Xi Jinping is speaking to a domestic audience when he talks about the way the U.S. is trying to contain China, to try to hamper economic growth at a time when

they are legitimately trying to boost the economy after coming out of this post-COVID fog. If you look at Chinese state media and Chinese social media, what's really being played up is the fact that the U.S. is trying to put China down at a time when China is legitimately rising, not only militarily, but diplomatically. Saudi Arabia and Iran was seen as a bit of a coup for Xi Jinping as a global statesman. And it's why his upcoming visit to Russia and possible phone call with Zelensky after could signal that maybe he will bolster his credentials even further. But if you look at how it's being played in state media, it's that the U.S. is very much using these Cold War tactics and that China has no choice but to defend itself. So Janice, from your reporting, from everything that you hear, I mean, I guess the question to ask is what does China want? What does Xi want? Before the spy

balloon kerfuffle, you actually had Xi willing to meet with our secretary of state, which is pretty unusual, actually, that got blown up. I'm curious, what what do they want? Closer relations with the United States again coming out of covid. Do they want closer relations with with relations with Europe so their GDP can rise again? Stability, I think, is probably the quickest answer to that. Stability with the U.S. and not having to consume energy on that side would allow Xi Jinping to shore up the economy, to shore up his diplomatic credentials again, and to help China find its place in the world. Part of the narrative is that China's modernization doesn't any longer mean westernization. So there is still the move toward trying to

nurture this self-sufficiency in Chinese technologies and Chinese industry. But it it doesn't want to include conflict with the U.S. All right. NBC's Janice Mackey Frazier. Thank you so much. And Janice, you're done before 7 a.m. Quite a change from China. Exactly. At least not here. The American dream. The American dream. Thank you so much for being with us. I hope to see you again soon.

It's the top of the hour where Donald Trump is rewriting the facts about American elections. What a surprise. And then you hear the fake news saying, oh, he didn't do so well in the midterms. I did well. The party didn't do that well because we have people like Mitch McConnell and others

that didn't allow them to do well. But nobody wants to mention it, so you know what I say? If nobody's going to mention it, mention it yourself, these kids. Because if nobody else is going to toot your horn, toot your own horn, just let it out there.

But that's pretty good, right? Two hundred and thirty three out of two hundred and fifty. Please, the guy lost time. And again, Dr. Oz, really? That's your idea for a good Pennsylvania candidate? And I mean, Doug Maserano got crushed. I mean, Donald Trump may have helped the next guy who's going to be leading the Democratic Party in the future by the horrible decisions that he made.

Georgia and Herschel Walker. I mean, yeah, maybe he had on 82% of the candidates he endorsed, which, of course, when you're endorsing people in gerrymandered districts, that's not hard. But as The New York Times points out, the vast majority of those were incumbents and heavy favorites to win. But in the 36 most competitive House races determined by the Cook Political Report, Trump endorsed candidates in five contests. And he went 0 for 5. And he went 1 for 7 in races where super PAC money was spent. J.D. Vance in Ohio was the only victory. So he went 0 for 5 in contested races in the House. Welcome back to Morning Joe. It's Tuesday, March 14th. Jonathan Lemire, K Kane, Eugene Robinson are still with us.

And let's bring into the conversation MSNBC contributor Mike Barnicle. Mike, we ought to get you in on the pitching rotation at some point. I just do we have that really? Because because Mike Mike knows more about baseball than I mean, he's forgotten more about baseball than we know. So I guess this is how they used to throw the baseball at Yale. Look at this. This is Ron DeSantis in a softball interview. And look, wee! Doesn't follow through. Goes to the side.

Let's do it one more time, Mike, just so you can see this. Hold on. It's coming. Okay, thank you, Ron. Thank you. Boy, this is some tight editing right here. Seriously, this is... By the way, what an interview, right? Here we go. I mean, it comes from the side, Mike. There it is. I mean, come on. This is not hard.

Well, you know, he hasn't thrown in a while, clearly from looking at this clip. And if you notice his arm, it's kind of rigid right there as it comes around instead of over the top. No, no follow through, though, Mike. No follow through. You see it in the slow-mo here, especially. Come on, man. I'm going to cut him some slack here, though, Joe, because I don't think he plays catch all day long, which he should. He was a very good baseball player at Yale. Very good baseball player at Yale. And I got to tell you, I got to tell you something else. Watching him and listening to him over the past four or five days, clips from Iowa and everything that Donald Trump is going to crush this guy.

Yeah, he is. Now, he is. He is. I guess he was. I guess he's a good boy. He was captain of the baseball team. But he hit. It's kind of like it's kind of like it's kind of like riding a bike, swinging a golf club, going skiing. You don't really forget, though. I don't understand how you how you go from the side like that.

If you've played baseball more than once. But we have some other examples of politicians throwing the baseball, too. We don't want to just pick on, here's Barack Obama. Whee! Man, I know. Yeah. See, it's the same thing, man. We got Barack Obama bowling, too. Miki used to get very angry when I showed Barack Obama bowling.

Did not like this. But I just, I couldn't help but go. Oh, now, now here's an example, though. Here's an example, though, of a guy who knows how to throw the baseball under under the toughest of circumstances. Yeah. Maybe you think he's a disastrous president, but boom, boom. Look at that. And Joe, he's wearing a flak jacket underneath that coat jacket. Yeah, a flak jacket. And you see that thing? It fades into the strike zone. I got to say, Mike, though, my favorite part of this story was what Jeter said to him beforehand.

He had all of America cheering for him. He even had New York cheering for him. He famously was driving through the streets of New York after 9-11. And people on the Upper West Side were jammed in on both sides. It was like a confetti parade, practically. And Rudy Giuliani said, you see all these people? You see all these people? Not one of them voted for you, and not one of them will vote for you in the future. But he's going out.

He's got the world looking at him in the World Series. And he goes out to pitch. And you remember what Derek Jeter said to him? Yeah. Yeah. Would you like to tell us? Better throw a strike? Don't bounce it.

Yeah, don't bounce it, Mr. President. Don't bounce it. Yeah, don't bounce it, Mr. President. Don't bounce it. And Gene Robinson, again, I mean, maybe a disastrous foreign policy, but man, he can throw a strike, can't he? He can throw a strike. Yes, disastrous foreign policy. Let's not forget that. But he can throw a strike. You know, that's one of the great

presidential sports moves. The other, I guess, is post-presidential was, of course, Barack Obama hitting that fadeaway three that we saw from the corner, which is just amazing. And then saying afterwards, that's what I do. So that's what I do. We'll need to show that. Since we showed President Obama pitching and bowling, we need to get the fadeaway jumper. We need to give him a little break. And Mika's not going to be happy. She always hated the bowling and pitching stuff.

We'll see if she's as upset with me when I show Ron DeSantis pitching and going, Wee. McCaddy.