Morning Joe - Morning Joe 3/21/23

Episode Date: March 21, 2023

Law enforcement bracing for possible pro-Trump protests

I don't know what goes into paying hush money to a porn star to secure silence over some type of alleged affair. I just I can't speak to that. Right. I just don't. I don't know. Yeah. OK. I guess, you know, and also I can't answer any questions about Playboy stars when you have affairs.

I can't answer those questions. Oh, and I know nothing about having businesses that go bankrupt after you inherit $400 million from your father. I can't, I can't speak to blowing that money that quickly. And I can't speak to being creepy. Oh, come on now. Come on. Boy, that was, that was quite the defense, wasn't it, Willie? It was. And it actually was the first time really with any strength we've seen Governor DeSantis speak out. I guess that was indirect, but it was indirect and some other and then quickly spun to an attack on the investigation, an attack on the Manhattan district attorney as a Soros backed leftist and all the things you expect him to say. But he did dip his toe in the water of Trump criticism. the Manhattan district attorney as a Soros backed leftist and all the things you'd expect him to say.

But he did dip his toe in the water of Trump criticism. Yeah, I saw it. Well, let's let's hear that again, TJ, if we could, because I didn't I didn't write all of that down. I want to get it right. It's just all right. I think I'll type this in. Hold on. OK, go ahead. Roll it.

I don't know what goes into paying hush money to a porn star to secure silence over some type of alleged affair. I just I can't speak to that. That was very specific. It was very specific. I don't know what it's like being a New York developer who's gone bankrupt dozens of times. And yeah. OK, so and you notice he said to pay off a porn store to cover up. I mean, it was like very, very specific. Yeah. Yeah. We'll leave that there.

And just say Ron DeSantis finally did have something to say about the potential indictment of Donald Trump. And we're going to have more of the backhanded defense from the Florida governor, who could be in a pickle, depending on how this goes, if this goes. In just a moment. Could he be in a pickle, Mika? Are we in the 1950s? And if we are, is he in a pickle? Yes, I am.

And I have Jay Johnson here who agrees with that. OK, so meanwhile, a Trump ally could be the last witness the Manhattan grand jury hears from before voting on indictment for the former president. We'll show you what he had to say outside the courthouse and break down what's next in the case. It comes as more Trump supporters are likely headed to prison for the violence on January 6th. We'll go through the latest convictions for members of the Oath Keepers, keeping in mind Trump's post on Truth Social about this potential indictment, which has some parallels. Good morning. Good morning, Mika. Why, thank you. That's very nice of you. Good morning. You know, it's Tuesday, March 21st.

And you are, of course, watching the Ron DeSantis Variety Hour. So, Willie, it's it's interesting. So the arrests keep coming for January 6th. Yeah. Trump's trying to get them to do another January 6th today or tomorrow. The Justice Department is going to have to get a bigger boat or at least hire more attorneys if they do it. Because, again, I think we're all supposed to be panicked and freaked out by all the stupid things Republicans do. It just ends up losing them elections. And if people go out and do this in the streets, just going to get arrested, thrown in jail and stay there for as long. If they want to follow Donald Trump and break the law.

You know, they do that. They just end up in jail like all these other people. Well, there is a link between the two stories that we just read, which is the reason perhaps, or at least some of the reason you're seeing prominent conservatives, prominent Trump supporters on their podcasts and in interviews saying, stay away from New York, don't go to the protest, you don't want to be a part of this, is because, yes, yesterday, four more Oath Keepers were sentenced to prison for obstructing an official proceeding on January the 6th. The people who did the worst on January 6th are, in fact, going to jail. They are, in fact, being held accountable. And the Justice Department has taken a couple of years

to get there, but they're showing that justice does find its way. And that's probably why you've seen even some prominent Republicans like Kevin McCarthy saying, no, I don't think I'd go down there and protest. And the protests we've seen so far, so far anyway, attendance has been light, let's just say, here in New York. Yeah. Well, I mean, let's hope for their sake. And of course, for the police officer's sake, that there's not a huge disturbance because it ends up, it just ends up being bad for them. They end up going to jail, you know. Elton John had a line off of his album,

Captain Fantastic of the Brown Dirt Cowboy, that said, you see, I'm doing this kind of R.A. Melber thing, except I'm doing it with 1970s music. Not as well. Jesus don't save the guys in the Tower of Babel. And let me tell you something. Donald Trump doesn't save you if you break the law. He's the wizard. Because you go to jail and there's a chance that Donald Trump himself may go to jail and everybody can scream and squawk. But here's a crazy thing. I know this is radical for some of y'all, but just because an election turns out the way you don't want it to turn out, doesn't mean it's not an election. It's going to be recognized and we're going to move

forward whether a Democrat wins or Republican wins. It's the same thing with the law, right? You don't like the law too bad. You follow the law or you get arrested. You go to jail. You can't discount lawbreaking because it's on one side or the other. Let me just say, too, the what about is on this Hunter Biden thing. Like, if you expect us to sit here and defend Hunter Biden, you're going to have to turn to another channel because I'm not defending Hunter Biden. I'm not attacking Hunter Biden. Let the Justice Department do what I think. I think they're investigating him. So if it chips fall, it chips fall. But that whataboutism won't save you, because even if Hunter Biden gets sent to jail, Democrats will not go out trashing the judiciary, trashing the Justice

Department, trashing the rule of law. And they'll keep beating you in elections, too, because of it. Before we get to business, and I know we have to get to business. I just I want to bring Gene Robinson in here. Can I bring Gene Robinson in here? Yeah, pull up Gene. Gene. Avis had a wonderful, a wonderful op ed yesterday in The Washington Post about her art. I know you're so I know you're so proud of her. She's such a gifted artist. But tell us about it. Oh, my God. Well, our editorial page editor, David Ship, and Avis cooked up this project.

And so she is making four fabric pieces to herald the four seasons this year. And so yesterday on the first day of spring on the website, and I believe this morning in the ink on paper newspaper, we published the first, Heralding Spring. And I think it's a great project. I'm way biased on this, but there's been a really good reaction from others as well. And yeah, I'm really proud of it and really happy with the way that it's turning out. So stay tuned. Congratulations to Avis. Very moving, very moving op-ed, too. Mika talking about what Avis, for Avis, what spring meant to her, the beauty of it, and also some tough memories.

So if you haven't had a chance to read that in the post, make sure you do that. Also with us, the host of Way Too Early, White House Bureau Chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, and with us here in New York City, former Secretary of Homeland Security under President Obama, Jay Johnson. So let's start this morning right here in New York City in the Manhattan District Attorney's Office ahead of a possible criminal indictment of former President Donald Trump. Sources tell NBC News that law enforcement is bracing for modest protests in support of the former president today around Trump Tower and the DA's office.

Yesterday, a handful of supporters responded to Trump's calls for mass protests over the weekend to, quote, take our nation back. Those came as prosecutors are reportedly zeroing in on a charge of falsifying business records in connection with a hush money payment Trump allegedly made to porn star Stormy Daniels in 2016 to keep her quiet about an affair she says the two had a decade earlier. Trump denies the affair and any wrongdoing.

Sources say tomorrow is the earliest we could see an indictment. That's when the grand jury in the case reconvenes. Yesterday, the jury heard from Trump ally Robert Costello, an attorney who previously advised Trump's own one-time lawyer, Michael Cohen. Cohen, prosecutor's star witness in the case, was also brought in yesterday to be on standby as a possible rebuttal witness for Costello's testimony. But that rebuttal was never needed, even after Costello spent more than two hours trying to discredit Cohen before the grand jury. After his testimony, Costello, who also has represented the likes of Rudy Giuliani and Steve Bannon, told reporters he has no agenda except exposing the truth. Cohen later responded in an interview with MSNBC's Ari Melber.

Did Rudy urge you to do this? No. I'm the one who decided to do this. A lot of people cautioned me against it because I had nothing to gain. The only thing I'm doing is trying to tell the truth to the grand jurors because I read all these lies in the media that are being promoted by one side. It's a typical Donald J. Trump play out of the playbook. Figure out how you're going to muddy the water as best as you possibly can. Denigrate the person, disparage them.

The district attorney has the documentation in order to validate every single statement that Bob Costello has to say, which is probably, again, why they didn't need me for rebuttal. Meanwhile, Donald Trump continues to lash out at Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg and posts on his social media platform. The latest, a campaign style attack ad which repeats his most common claims about Bragg. I'm the only thing standing between the American dream and total anarchy, madness and chaos. And that's what it is. I'm representing you. I'm just here. Always remember, they are coming after me because I am fighting for you. That's what's happening. Ominous music and everything. In another post yesterday, the former president accused Bragg of breaking the law, writing that the D.A. should be held accountable for, quote, interference in a presidential election. So, Secretary Johnson, we can come back to that

in a minute. I want to go back to the security question, though, something you would be familiar with as a head of Homeland Security. What do you suspect is going on behind the scenes right now with the New York Police Department, Homeland Security, the FBI, Secret Service, everybody else? Well, first, it would appear from everything we we see in here that if there's to be a court appearance by Mr. Trump, it'll probably be later this week at the earliest, possibly into next week. The grand jury is apparently still hearing testimony. They heard testimony from a witness yesterday. My recollection of grand jury practice is once all the evidence is in,

the prosecutor gives the grand jurors some sort of instruction on the law. They then have to vote on the indictment. The indictment has to be handed down. And behind the scenes now, I'm quite sure, is a five-way negotiation between Donald Trump's lawyers, his Secret Service detail, the DA's office, the court officers who are responsible for the security of 100 Center Street, and the NYPD. The NYPD, I suspect, is sort of leading the discussions about where the appearance will occur, when it will occur, will there be photographers, will there be press, so forth and

so on. But that's a five-way negotiation. And I have a lot of confidence in the NYPD. The NYPD, the court officers, used to high profile court appearances at 100 Center Street. None like this. However, this will be unprecedented, clearly. But the NYPD knows how to read social media, gather intelligence, anticipate crowd size, anticipate what level of security will be appropriate around 100 Center Street, assuming that's where this actually takes place. They're already setting up. Yeah, it seems that on January 6th, the Washington Police Department, the city of Washington, Capitol Hill Police, they were all caught off guard.

I think most of us that have spent some time in New York City can attest to the fact that you don't sneak up on the NYPD. They got this, right? So if you come into New York City, we're going to hide the guns right across the bridge. And then we're going to get the guns and bring them over. Don't do that because that's just going to be real, real bad for you. Implications. This ain't, yeah, this ain't like leave the guns in Arlington and come to the cap. It's just not.

You're in NY, you're in New York and you're dealing with the NYPD. So lots of luck there, fella. Jonathan Lemire. So I'm shocked. I'm shocked. There's gambling. There's gambling in the back. I'm shocked. I'm shocked. There's gambling. There's gambling in the back. I'm shocked. Donald Trump actually lied about being arrested on Tuesday because I'm not really good with this time thing. I usually I sometimes Mika will tell you we walk down the street. I go, what season is this?

And she'll go, it's spring, Joe. And I go, what year? So that's kind of where I am as far as self-awareness about dates, times, hemispheres that I'm in. But in this case, let's see, it's Tuesday and he's not getting arrested. He lied again just to stir up the water. And this is, this is just what he does. Yeah, I will say I sure wish it were Friday. But it is only Tuesday. And so far, Donald Trump has not been arrested. In fact, his team had to acknowledge that there's been no communication from the Manhattan DA's office. They acknowledge, private leader reporters, they have no idea where he got Tuesday from. In fact, some people have gone back and looked.

They lied, looked at cable hits on Fox or OAN or Newsmax. Did some guest suggest Tuesday and he saw it? No one found that either. So this does appear to be a lie, an attempt to try to push his supporters and also perhaps more importantly push Republicans out there to start defending him. Because it does seem like this indictment is going to come soon. Tomorrow is a possible date. It's the next time the grand jury meets. There is a chance, though, as the secretary mentioned, this could slide to next week or the week after. There's no rush here. The Manhattan DA doesn't have to do it on any sort of pitch clock. But the

former president is trying to get Republicans out there to try to muddy the waters, to start their attacks on Bragg. We covered it yesterday, Joe. Members of government, including Speaker McCarthy, threatening to use the tools at his disposal to try to investigate Bragg, to try to cut off his fending, and some pretty ominous threats being put out there as well. Hence all this security being put into place in front of lower Manhattan there. But there's no sense. There's no sense to when, or if still, this may come. But it's not going to look like it's going to be today.

I think we need to talk about if as well. We don't know, right, Jay? We don't know. Meanwhile, Republican allies of former President Trump are moving to his defense. Congressman Jim Jordan, an outspoken Trump supporter and chair of the House Weaponization Committee, sent in New York D.A. Alvin Bragg a letter asking him to testify about his, quote, decision to pursue such a politically motivated prosecution.

That's hard. Get out. Get out. Get it. Get out of third grade. That's not even smart. Yeah, that's just that's that's not even a duh. I mean, come on. Who are these guys? I don't know.

Who are these guys? It's not it's not a pro among them. House Republican leadership seems, at least for now, to be standing by Trump. Conference chair Elise Stefanik said yesterday. No, no, no, no, no. We're not going to play anything by Trump. Conference Chair Elise Stefanik said yesterday... No, no, no, no, no. We're not going to play anything she said. We're not going to play anything she said. No, we're not going to play anything. Let me tell you...

I just want to see a second. Let me tell you why... No, I want to tell you why we're not going to play it. Why? Because she goes... She goes... Harvard, by the way. I think she went to Harvard.

It disgraced... Another one of these phony populists from an Ivy League school. They really have to do a better job screening their prospects. But anyway, I don't want to see. So I don't want to. I think you have to face what's going on. She says, oh, here's another example.

She tweeted, here's another example of of the Justice Department or the D.A. or whomever leaking, leaking things that that will attack Donald Trump. And George Conway just subtweeted and said it was Donald Trump who released. Yeah. Like the stupidity. And also, though, I think, Willie, that maybe and we ought to hear from Gene, too, on this. But, Willie, I think maybe we we kind of brushed over the DeSantis thing to say, you know, talking about him going, well, I don't know what it's like to pay off a porn star to keep him quiet from an alleged affair. Because we did kind of brush past his his anti-Semitic swing. Yeah. Like, you know, he did the old, oh, it's the international Jewish bankers fault. They just straight out of just pure anti-Semitic drivel that that.

And we now see Ron DeSantis is is is quoting talking points from Vladimir Putin about territorial disputes. And he's repeating old sent anti-Sic tropes, attacking international Jewish bankers. It's just like, come on, this is who you guys say is the anti-Trump. And by the way, that wasn't a one off from Ron DeSantis. That is the party line about this investigation. Elise Stefanik said the same thing, that Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan district attorney, is a Soros backed candidate. They make sure they put that modifier every time they use his name and criticizing him and the investigation. And as Mika just pointed out, Jim Jordan and others are using the power of the House of Representatives,

the United States Congress, to spend their valuable time to go after Alvin Bragg and to protect their guy, Donald Trump. Let's talk more about this with congressional investigations reporter for The Washington Post, Jackie Alimany. She's also, of course, an MSNBC contributor. Jackie, good morning. So we are seeing Republicans en masse rally to the defense of Donald Trump here to go after Alvin Bragg and to use, as I said, the Judiciary Committee, in fact, to try to get Bragg to come in and testify before them. Where is this headed? Yeah, well, I'm down here in Orlando, Florida, at the House GOP retreat where Trump has been the center of conversation, despite Speaker McCarthy's desire to have it be about anything other than Trump, even though he did exactly the opposite

on Sunday by declaring a sort of war on Albin Bragg by issuing this notice that committees should investigate Bragg and whether or not this investigation was federally funded. Yesterday, at every single press conference and media briefing that was held with reporters, Jim Jordan, Mark Green, Brian Stile, all of the headsvin Bragg, using this George Soros dog whistle and, you know, defending their right to simply ask questions, even though this is an ongoing investigation and issuing subpoenas and and and doing this sort of investigation during an ongoing criminal investigation is very unprecedented. Yeah. And, you know, Jean, they're not even trying to hide the whole international Jewish bankers, anti-Semitic trope anymore. You've got House leaders attacking international Jewish bankers. You've got Ron DeSantis, who, again, what you know, one week this guy is repeating Kremlin talking points about the war and territorial disputes. The next week he's blaming Donald Trump paying off a porn star for an alleged affair. One hundred and thirty thousand dollars had already sent his lawyer to jail.

He's blaming that on international Jewish bankers. Like this is the great white hope for the Republican Party. As Ali would say, more like the great white dope. What a joke. And again, let's just call it what it is. It's anti-Semitism. Oh, it absolutely is. And it's really shocking when you think about it. I mean,

to go straight to, you know, the code words they use are globalist, globalist, George Soros, globalist, you know, banker who was Jewish. It's full, flat out anti-Semitism. There's no two ways about it. And it's amazing that, to me at least, a bit surprising that DeSantis would go straight there and sort of follow the herd in that direction rather than, you know, geez, guy, you know, pull back a little bit. You're you're planning to run for president. You don't you don't have to have to go out on that on that rotten limb this early in your proto campaign. But there he went. And it's it's just it's just stunning. But, you know, you would tell you you you mentioned earlier that that what comes to mind for you is an old Elton John song. I think of of an older song. I fought the law and the law won.

And, you know, that's what happens in the end. That's what happens. He committed a crime. He's, you know, the wheels of justice are going to grind. And yeah, he can be invested if he gets arrested, if he gets indicted. And if he's guilty, he can be convicted. And that's the way the law works. And you want to get in front of that Sherman tank, be my guest. Well, and they keep doing it, Mika. And of course, just for people at home, if you keep in score, when Gene's talking about I fought the law and the law won, it's the Eddie Cochran version. Mika, when she goes, that's a good song, she's thinking about the Clash version because you really are a huge Clash fan, aren't you, Mika?

But OK, so listen, the politics of this, it's hard not to laugh. And if you're a former Republican, you might be crying at this point because of their obsession with losing. But, Jay Johnson, there are some dangers here from anti-Semitism all the way back to the beginning of this story when it broke Trump's truth social post. Can you talk about what Homeland Security is dealing with now? What are what thoughts are going through your mind as you watch this play out? Several things. First, it's revealing to me that while DeSantis is trying to be the anti-Trump, the extent to which he will go to pander to Trump's base with the anti-Semitic comments and so forth. By the way, Joe, we in the legal profession call the DeSantis comment about paying hush money to porn stars a good faith cheap shot. But this this is alarming from a homeland security perspective

because we now know that terrorism in this country is principally domestic based. We saw that on January 6th. We see it over and over again here in the homeland. The Anti-Defamation League tracks domestic based terrorism, how most of it is inspired by domestic based forces. The other thing I have to point out about Republicans in Congress, you know, they're all they all call themselves federalist, you know, states rights when it's something states are doing that they like when when a state government does something they don't like in Congress. Oh, we have to investigate this. We have to issue a subpoena to the Manhattan D.A. to find out whether or not it's all being federally funded to interfere with a state level

prosecution. I am sure that the Department of Homeland Security now is monitoring this threat environment around what could happen in New York in a few days, as they should be. Right. And you see his post, the way he worded it as parallel to January. Well, what's amazing about that post from Saturday, you know, his his only defense dangling by a thread to January 6th and inciting the riot on January 6th is somewhere in those remarks. He used the word peacefully. That statement on Saturday did not use the word peacefully at all. It's just protest. Take our nation back, which to me is significant and revealing. Before we go to break a few of the other

morning's headlines, French President Emmanuel Macron, his government narrowly survived two no confidence votes in Parliament on Monday, triggered after it pushed through a deeply unpopular measure to raise the retirement age from 62 to 64. Afterwards, Parliament adopted the divisive pension bill, which now faces review by the Constitutional Council before it can be signed into law. The French president wants to raise the legal age of retirement in an effort to put more money into the system, which the government says is set to run a deficit.

A nationwide day of strikes and protests is scheduled for Thursday. You know, Gene Robinson, you obviously covered Britain. You, as Washington Post's bureau chief there, you understood what was going on with Thatcher when she made moves such as these in the 1980s, which, again, whether you're like Thatcher or not, transformed Britain, made it less of a massive declining welfare state. Macron sees himself in that same position and understands they have the most generous retirement benefits where you can retire at 62. And he's a reformer. He said and he promised him, if you elect me, I've got to if we're going to survive, we've got to move up our retirement age and make it for people who actually work a

couple of decades. And he's facing a lot of resistance. But I don't know that we're paying a lot of attention here. But it's pretty remarkable thing that he's done and even survived a no confidence vote yesterday. It is a remarkable thing he's done, but he's not out of the woods I mean, this is deeply unpopular in France. You could argue, looking at the numbers and looking at the demographics of France, you could certainly argue that it's necessary and that, to us, raising the retirement age from 62 to 64 does not sound onerous. But in the context of France, this is a big, big deal. And, you know, he could not get this through the French parliament with a vote initially. And so he had to, he essentially did it by decree and said, you know, use this provision where he then has a no confidence vote.

And he's squeaked by that. Now it has to be reviewed and it has to. And meanwhile, there are going to be people in the streets protesting this because, as I said, people don't like it. So this is not quite it's not quite over it over yet. Yeah, we haven't seen the end of this back here at home, it's going to be a tough day in Los Angeles. More than 60,000 Los Angeles school district employees going on a three-day strike starting today. A union representing about 30,000 support workers is demanding a 30% pay increase.

They say their members make little more than minimum wage and are struggling to afford the cost of living in Southern California. The teachers union, which represents 35,000 employees, also has asked its members to walk out in solidarity. Classes now have been canceled for more than 400,000 students. All right. We'll be following that coming up on Morning Joe. New convictions stemming from the attack on the Capitol. We'll go through the guilty verdicts for a third set of oath keepers taken to trial as jurors deliberate additional charges. Also ahead, live reporting from Beijing after a meeting of, quote, dear friends in Moscow. We'll have the latest on China's so-called peace mission in Russia as the leaders of those two countries prepare for another round of talks today.

Plus, a leading voice in the administration on national security. John Kirby joins us live from the White House. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. Well, I left my baby in a pilsen bed I guess my reason was She's the best girl that I've ever had I bought the law and the law won I bought the law and the law won Joe?

Hey. Yeah, exactly. So I told them I'm going to go to you. I got word of that, too. That's why I look like a deer in the headlights. Can we go to TJ for a second here? So TJ, here's the deal. See, you don't have the TJ cam.

Oh, how convenient, TJ. Yeah, well, we need the TJ cam. Oh, how convenient, TJ. Yeah, well, we need the TJ cam back in for moments such as this. So I tell TJ, I said, I'm going to go to Willie here. I go, Willie. That's what I heard, too. So he comes out with a shot of Willie. And Willie's like, what? What did I do? What did I do? Oh, my God.

That's not going on my reel, Joe, that moment. No, we're not going to put that one on the reel. So listen, Willie, I feared I was out of my depth, right? But I fought the law. I said Eddie Cochran. Yeah, no, it wasn't Eddie Cochran. The editor of The New Republic, Michael Tomaskis, also, he's quite a rock historian. I fought the law was by the Bobby Fuller Four.

Right. Yeah. Sixty six. And not by Eddie Cochran. That was the Bobby Fuller Four. The band that also did the closing credits for Fantastic Mr. Fox. I think they were. This is an incredible song. What's that? Help from the control room on that one. Yeah. Yeah. I think they were. This is so random. I need some help from the control room on that one.

Hold on a second. Bobby. You won't get me here. Fuller. So guys, as much as you think people want to see you Googling. They do want to know. Hold on a second. We're doing this for our real

Letter Dance. That's it. Letter Dance by Bobby Fuller IV. Just incredible. Incredible movie. Why don't we talk about the Oath Keepers? Hey, Willie, do you want to talk about baseball for a little bit? Let's lighten things up and talk about the Oath Keepers. Okay, do that. That sounds good. Go ahead. All right, let's get back to the news. As we were, six more members of the Oath Keepers have been convicted for their roles in the January 6 insurrection. A federal jury found all of them guilty of entering or remaining in a restricted building or grounds. In addition, four were found guilty of conspiring to obstruct an official

proceeding. The judge ordered jurors to continue deliberating over the most serious counts against the other two defendants. Joining us now, NBC News justice reporter Ryan Riley. He's been following the January 6th investigation since the very beginning in these cases specifically. Ryan, good morning. So tell us some more about these latest convictions and how they are a little bit different from the previous ones we've seen with the Oath Keepers. That's right. So the first two Oath Keepers trial involved charges of seditious conspiracy, and this trial didn't involve those. It's also been a lot less high profile as a result. And I think also because of the fact that there's an unfolding Proud Boys trial happening in the D.C. federal courtroom

right now. So you have these two competing sort of trials. And the second Oath Keepers seditious conspiracy trial also overlapped with that other trial against members of the Proud Boys. So there's been a lot of activity at the courtroom. And there's been occasions where I've been sitting in on some of these cases and have been the only reporter and only person in the room because there's just so many of these cases that we're sort of churning through right now. But these individuals, three of them, or rather four of them, were convicted of the top charge of obstruction of an official proceeding. And that was Sandra Parker, Laura Steele, Connie Meggs, and William Isaacs. There are two other individuals who the jury was

still deliberating on that top charge for, but they were convicted of sort of just like the base level charge, which is being present essentially on restricted grounds of the U.S. Capitol. The two individuals who were convicted of that didn't actually go inside the building, but they were one of thousands of people who were outside. And that's just sort of the layup case that you can get against anyone. In fact, if you wanted to charge thousands of people with that, you could charge that against them because all of them are universally guilty of it. But ultimately, we might not end up with a more serious charge against those two defendants, including Michael Green, who had actually testified on behalf

of Stuart Rhodes during the first Oath Keepers trial. So, Jay Johnson, we touched on this earlier in the show, but juries are returning convictions in these cases around the attack on the Capitol on January 6th. Stuart Rhodes, that Ryan just mentioned, the head of the Oath Keepers, was convicted of seditious conspiracy. There are cases still pending out there against members of the Proud Boys, also for seditious conspiracy, very serious charges. Yes. And there is something to be said for investigating and possibly prosecuting not just those who took to the streets, not just those who broke into the Capitol building, but those who incited the insurrection.

January 6th was the very definition of an insurrection. In my view, it's in the national interest that in prosecuting these cases, we call it what it was. You know, we read that the special prosecutor is contemplating charges for obstruction of the unofficial proceeding, fraud. This was an insurrection. You know, let's call it what it was. And the insurrection statute punishes not just those who participate in the insurrection, but those who incite it and give aid and comfort thereto. So in investigating former President Trump and others around him, I think we really do have to call it what it is.

I think it's in the national interest that we call it. That's what makes this moment dangerous, Joe. Well, and the thing is, so here, do you know what you call this, what we're watching right now? It's a technical term. So for those of you not in television, I can understand what you don't understand. You've never heard what we call this. We call this video. OK, we have a lot of video.

And in the post-truth world that Donald Trump inhabits and his supporters inhabit and people on cable news television that want to defend him inhabit. This video is held by millions and millions of people, especially because of social media. So if you lie about what happened on January 6th, if you try to redefine it and try to redefine Jonathan O'Meara, saying, oh, the weird guy wearing the horns. I don't know who people were trying to say. Oh, he was just a peaceful guy and he never walked through a window. Boom.

A couple of seconds later, we got reporters like Mr. Riley who will say, well, actually, look at this video. Here he is walking through a broken window. And so that's the thing. They don't understand that in this post-truth world that Donald Trump lives by and that they think they can live by, they don't understand that this is just a Jim and Tammy Faye Baker scam. He wants their money. He wants them to do his dirty bidding for him. And at the end of the day, he goes back to PTL land and they go to jail. At the end of the day, their lives are ruined because they broke the law and his life. It just keeps going on because until now, Donald Trump is above the law.

But again, make no mistake of it. You know, Fox News can try to redefine this any way they want to redefine this. Congressmen who were helping Capitol cops from having people break through doors and shoot up the House chamber can lie about it a couple of weeks later and say that, oh, they were just tourists. But we've got something called video. And it shows still that it was a riot. It was an attempted insurrection. And they keep going to jail. And so for those who think they're going to screw with the NYPD today, stay on the other side of the bridge. It's not going to go well. Even if they come into New York City and

break the law, they're going to jail. It's pretty simple. Break the law, go to jail. There is no post-truth world when it comes to the court system, right? Pre-trial detention. No, certainly so. Yeah, Rikers. And by the way, one-way ticket to, somebody said it, Rikers. Have a good day. Over the long bridge there to Rikers Island. Yeah, there is certainly the NYPD specializes, particularly post-9-11, in real shows of force.

And they safeguard major events. No city holds more of them. They'll be just fine if insurrectionists show up either today or tomorrow. But to your point, yes, there's been a consistent effort to whitewash, to downplay what happened on January 6th by so many on the right. Yes, a leading cable news network and its top host, as well as many figures in the Republican Party, lawmakers, some who have positions of real prominence now in the Republican-controlled House of Representatives. We're also seeing on the 2024 campaign trail, candidates, potential Republican candidates for president are largely ignoring January 6th, except for a few comments from Mike Pence. No one using that as a means to attack Donald Trump to say he's not qualified for office

because, of course, they are so afraid of alienating his supporters. But there is video, Joe. This is the most documented crime scene in the history of the United States. That's per the FBI. There's video. There is evidence. Those people are going to jail. And we should note there is an open investigation by Jack Smith, the special counsel, into Donald Trump's role that day, too. He is not out of legal jeopardy either. NBC News justice reporter Ryan Reilly, thank you for bringing your reporting today. And former Homeland Security Secretary Jay Johnson, thank you as well for your insight. And coming up on Morning Joe, a conversation on the inspiration for today's GOP.

We'll be joined by the author of a book that examines the Birch Society and how it is shaping the current Republican Party. And a little later, we're going to break down the stakes of an election in Wisconsin that is coming down to the wire. Morning Joe is coming right back. What are the chances of winning? I was feeling sad and kind of blue. I didn't know what I was going to do. The communists was coming around. It was in the air.

It was on the ground. It was all over. Welcome back to Morning Joe. I wanted to let that play a little more. Ten minutes before the top of the hour, as we approach the first presidential election since the January 6th insurrection, we are seeing shadows of a resurgence of a far-right political movement of the past. Our next guest has a look at how the John Birch Society's teachings are being mirrored in the Trump MAGA movement. And joining us now, George Washington University professor Matthew Dalek. He's the author of the new book entitled Birchers,

How the John Birch Society Radicalized the American Right. And Joe, I can't imagine better timing for this book. Well, you know, it's fascinating. There's an ebb and flow. When Ronald Reagan first started campaigning in 1966, a lot of John Birchers supported him. And he was told pretty early on that he had to distance himself. And he came out with a pithy statement. I know Matthew will know it far better than me, but something along the lines of, you know, if they support me, they're going to have to support my views, not not vice versa. And Matthew, I'll tell you,

when I was running in 1994, there were still John Birchers around. They they weren't they they were sort of kept his arms length the same way Reagan kept them at arm's length. But they were still there in Republican politics. I think the biggest difference now is the door has been opened unto them and they're having a much bigger impact than they have in quite some time. You know, the thing I'm I'm so struck by is the first 40, 50 minutes of your show, much of what we heard from Ron DeSantis, Donald Trump, other leaders of the Republican Party strikes a birch key. The conspiracism, this idea of a George Soros plot, right, a Jewish international figure, the kind of nativism and isolationism that we've seen come atop the GOP. A lot of these ideas are the descendants of the John Birch Society. And you're right,

Joe, the Birchers still exist as an organization, although there are not many left. It's not like the 1960s when they were really the epitome of far right extremism. Now it's. And, you know, the interesting thing, too, is and I really should have focused more on this as we went through the past five or six years. But now that you're talking about it, they would have these grand sweeping conspiracy theories and it would be international Jewish bankers, just like Ron DeSantis is talking about now. But they would, you know, surrounding it all was this fear that the communists were coming to get us. Right. But the deeper you dug into it, when you would push back, just like on any of these Trump conspiracy theories. Yeah. Yeah. But wait a second, though. We were pushing back on communism and we actually won the Cold War because this was happening in 94 with me. We actually won. They're in total collapse. But somehow we're conspiring with the communists who we've been against. You get the idea because you know

all of this. But none of it made any sense. And I was like, OK. And then I would say, OK, let me talk about banning offshore oil drilling everybody. And I'd go to another group of people. But it didn't make any sense. Well, it doesn't. They're very hard to follow. Look, the most infamous conspiracy from the Birchers was Robert Welch's, the leader's idea that Dwight Eisenhower, the president and, of course, the leader of D-Day, a war hero, a general, was a dedicated agent of the communist conspiracy. And that, of course, offended not just liberals,

but many Republicans at the time. I mean, you know, how do you get from Eisenhower to communism? And the thing about these conspiracy theories is that they're very adaptable, right? They're pliable. And so when the Cold War ended, what you see are people like Pat Robertson, for example, or Ron Paul adapting versions of these Birchite conspiracy theories and weaving them to different ends. So Ron Paul, for example, spun this theory about a North American union that George Bush was basically conspiring with Mexico and Canada to create a NAFTA superhighway and create a North American union like the European Union. And George W. Bush actually, to his credit, rejected that and said, you know, I've been in politics a long time. I've seen this rodeo show before. You throw out a conspiracy theory. They want you to they want you to refute it. But I'm not playing that game.

And, you know, it's impossible to refute. It's, you know, the theories are so Byzantine and they take a shard of truth or evidence and they spin it into something unrecognizable. Matthew, is this a strand of thought in American political life that's just always there, that has always been there, and that gets tapped into by the Birchers or by the Tea Party or by MAGA or whatever from time to time? It has. Yes, it's been there from the inception of the republic. I mean, of course, we were founded in opposition to the central state. And so, you know, this idea that the federal government was going to take away

our liberties is really deeply ingrained inside the United States. And so, you know, Joe, you referenced Trump's rhetoric about a deep state earlier. Well, that's similar not just to the John Birch Society, but to Joe McCarthy talking about the traitors inside the State Department. Or, you know, you can go back to the founding of the Republic or the 19th century, where they found conspiracy theories based in Washington or about international bankers. And yes, there is, I think, within the country, and a lot of people have written about this, there is a kind of deep-rooted sense of especially centralized powers, whether that's, you know, mass media or Washington, D.C., that is depriving people of wealth and their liberties. And look, Trump in his final campaign

ad in 2016 spun one of these. I mean, you can go back and watch the ad and he talks about how globalists and he flashes on screen, I think, three Jewish bankers and says that the globalists are trying to take away your wealth. They've been stealing your wealth and rigging the system on your behalf. And so it's a very good question. And you're right. I mean, it's it's it's really deeply American. And in some ways, though, the difference now is that it's just become more and more mainstream for a variety of reasons, some of which I get into the book. All right. The new book is Birchers, How the John Birch Society Radicalized the American Right. Matthew Dalek, thank you very much for coming on this morning.