Morning Joe - Morning Joe 3/22/24

Episode Date: March 22, 2024

RNC using donations to pay for Trump’s legal bills

Some more political news today. Biden canceled nearly $6 billion in federal student debt to thousands of public service workers. It was a bold decision by Biden. I'm not sure March Madness is the best time to give everyone more money. That's right, Biden canceled almost $6 billion in debt. Then one guy was like, now do me.

Please. Donald Trump could use the money because he is days away from potentially having some of his assets in New York seized. We'll tell you which properties New York Attorney General Letitia James appears to be targeting, plus a development that should be surprising to no one. A deal between Donald Trump and the RNC will make it more likely that donor money is spent on his legal bills. And we'll have a look at President Biden's time on the campaign trail this week, which included a new nickname for his predecessor. Good morning. Happy Friday. Welcome to Morning Joe. It is Friday, March 22nd.

Does it feel like Friday, Joe? Yes. Oh my God. Does it feel like Friday? It felt like Friday on Tuesday. You know, some things fly. But we love it so much. Well, no, I mean, I wish I wish it could be Monday all over. Yeah, not really. OK, with us, we have former aide to the George W. Bush White House and State Department's Elise Jordan, professor at Princeton University. Eddie Glaude, Jr., former White House director of communications to President Obama, Jennifer Palmieri. She's co-host of the MSNBC podcast, How to Win 2024 with Claire McCaskill. The host of the podcast On Brand with Donnie Deutsch. Donnie Deutsch is with us and deputy managing editor for politics at Politico. Sam Stein doing some way too early duty for us. Thank you very much, Sam.

It's incredible. Hey, Sam, how are your brackets doing right now? Not particularly great, honestly. Lots of upsets of my picks, but I was actually kind of pleased to see Kentucky go down, even though I had them going pretty far in the bracket. I don't have any luck for that program. Huge upsets all around Oakland. Who would think the A's would be any good in the NCAA. I don't have any luck for that program. Huge upsets all around Oakland.

Who would think the A's would be any good in the NCAA? I mean, a lot of 11 C's, but yeah, Kentucky getting out of there early. We're going to get to this story in a second, but Jen, I've just got to say, you've been in the middle of quite a few political campaigns. What a nightmare. I'm dead serious here. What a nightmare it has to be being a part of Donald Trump's campaign, being grossly underfunded and knowing that Trump has put his family in charge of the RNC or being a

Republican candidate down ballot. I've been one of those before where you're just praying that the R.N.C. can help you out. And all of that money is going for a guy who's just completely beyond cash strapped. I mean, for a lot of legitimate reasons. And again, we said this yesterday. There are a lot of billionaires that would not have five hundred million dollars laying around, but they really are. He has all along, but they're really leveraging his campaign for his personal use. And it's these are the sort of things that may not show up in stupid polls in March. This is the stuff that as you make that final turn after Labor Day,

this is when things start falling. I thought, and I'm not saying this is going to happen, but I thought Stuart Stevens had a pretty good insight. He said, everybody's talking about how this race looks right now. He said to Stuart, and he knows a thing or two about campaigns. He says it's looking like 1980 in reverse, where, you know, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, all year, too close to call. Yeah. And things just flipped near the end.

And that's what Stuart says. And if you look how things are lining up, we don't know what's going to happen over the next six months. But man, if you look at any of the fundamentals about politics, this looks like Stewart may be onto something. And Alex told me they got Stewart's spite here. Play Stewart real quick and we'll talk about it. My image of the Trump campaign is somebody walking around with a paper bag full of water. I don't think it's going to leak, but I think when this thing goes, it's going to go quickly. And I think there's a good chance that we're going to have a situation like 1980 in reverse, where Carter was tight with Reagan until the middle of October, and then kind of the bottom fell out for Carter.

I always tell my kids, if things look like they're too good to be true, they're too good to be true. And if you're looking at something that just doesn't make sense, you know, there's a reason. And here, we're looking at something that makes no sense. This guy is getting crazier by the day. He's got no money. The campaign is just broke.

People don't want to give money. He's down 200,000 contributors to where he was this time in the cycle four years ago. Biden's raised $71 million. People are begging, literally begging, literally begging. And any idiot that runs some like podcast they're begging they're calling contributors and saying how can i help i want to write checks for joe biden put that number up again what did tippo nill say about money in politics it's the mother's milk of politics and right now joe biden's got all he wants. And Donald Trump is a little thirsty,

getting crushed here. And here's the most important thing. It's the small donors, too. Yeah, it's not just the big. It's the small donors. And why? Because I've always talked about my grandmom giving money to the PTL club. At some point, you figure out what Jim and Tammy Faye are really up to. And in this case, they know if they're writing twenty five dollar checks to Donald Trump, it's not going to make America great again. It's going to Donald Trump's lawyers. Yeah. And that is like if the if the if the polls were right, why is Joe Biden getting a lot of money? You know, some of it's big checks, some of it's small donor checks. And Donald Trump is not doing anything. But I think that the you know, we talked we don't talk enough about Trump's weaknesses and the fundamentals of his campaign are very weak.

You know, it's like he doesn't have any money. He has 91 counts against him for indictments, trials that he's like trying to trying to balance. And he can't raise any money. He's got to raise half a billion dollars by Monday. And then with the you know, I think that we need to brace for the I bet you'll agree with this. The polls might not change in Biden's favor until the fall. Right. You know, like that's just like that's just when people are going to start to pay attention. And just so people understand, we went into the final weekend. I'm old enough to remember this. I know Donnie's final weekend. There was, I think, you know, Time magazine. It came out back when we had magazines and we were younger people and had magazines to read. And on Friday before the Tuesday election in 1980,

nobody knew if Jimmy Carter was going to win or Ronald Reagan's going to win. And then just a collapse over the weekend. And you look at the fundamentals. You look at the fundamentals. You look at the economy. And we're going to show an ad. Are you better off than you were four years ago? Damn straight you are. Unless you're Donald Trump. Yeah. Like the fundamentals

in every way, the money, the economy, you name it. This week, we find out Jay Powell's doing three interest rate cuts. And by the way, you know, people are like, you know, if anybody's out there going, oh, he's whistling past the graveyard. No, I'm not. I'm just telling you that you look at the fundamentals. Yes. It doesn't make sense that that Donald Trump is going to pull this out at the end. He doesn't have money and they don't. And why the money is so important for Biden right now is what he is, the one that we need to hear more about. He's the one that we need to hear more about. And so he is going to be he is on the air right now reaching the Democrat, reaching the voters that were for him in 20 that have that are that are wishing now and telling them what they need to know in March about what he's accomplished. Like

that that is, you know, really when when when are all these accomplishments going to break through starting now? Because now they can put these ads, now, because now they can put these ads on the air. Big question, too. Will Trump have the money to go on the air in July, August, September, October? At the rate he's going, maybe something's going to dramatically change with this fundraising. But looking back at 2020, his lack of being on the air is what a lot of analysts attribute to some of his slump in certain battleground states. And so if he can't get those fundraising numbers up dramatically, it's not good for him. And he's going to fall victim to the same pattern.

And what does Joe Biden have to do? And Donnie, we'll talk to you about this in a second. I always had the conversion thing where people say, oh, we ought to go after this type of voter or that. I said, let me tell you something. My family, we grew up as a Crest family. We just did. You can give us a million Colgate. Like you can give my dad all the free Colgate samples you want. He'd throw them in the trash can.

What is this? What the hell, Mary Jo? And throw it away. I'm just saying they're Crest families. There's Colgate families. There was the Aqua, whatever that was before. Oh, that's a rebel, man. OK, that you were a rebel, honey. But here, Joe Biden, he doesn't have to turn Crest families into Colgate families. He just needs the Crest families to go back to their cabinet and open it up with young voters, Hispanics, black voters. He needs to hold serve. It's easier to hold serve.

And this isn't a pep rally for Democrats. This is just politics 101. That's what Joe Biden has to do. Donald Trump, he can do it. We've seen it before. He's got he's got he's got to break a lot of serves between now and November to win. I think that's absolutely right, Joe. But I was listening to you and I wanted to ask you this question because I think, you know, the analogy to 80 makes sense to me. Right. But against the backdrop of the culture wars, against the backdrop of of the deep divisions that go beyond politics as usual.

I'm thinking about this sense that we've lost the country. What makes Donald Trump interesting is not to me, at least, is not the particulars of who he is. He's an avatar for these conflicts. So what role will the culture wars play in this? I mean, you know, they've always they've always been there. The culture wars have always been there. At this level of intensity? Yeah, it's just always been here.

And I would say, actually, the Republicans, you look at the Republicans, you look at the noise machine, you look at all the outlets that are running their stories. Remember the immigrants with leprosy in 2018? All the caravans, they were coming, they were coming, they were going to, we were all going to have skin falling off of us. Well, what happened? Democrats won in 2018. We heard the same thing in 2020. Also in 2022, trans athletes were coming to your neighborhood and they were going to have sex with whoever you didn't want them to have sex with i mean they would republicans some republicans sent out 20 mailers on trans athletes red wave now again sound and fury signifying nothing you look at the two issues now that are the social issues that matter

the most to people, abortion and guns. And both of those have nothing to do with ideology. We're beyond the ideology wars. We now have fathers looking at daughters. We have mothers looking at daughters. We have family members looking at their moms going, is she going to get the help that she needs from her doctor? Or is she going to bleed out outside the hospital room. And the same thing with guns. I know really conservative people, really conservative, who openly wept, openly wept when they had to send their children to school on the first day

because it came a couple of weeks after a shooting. What in the hell? I mean, what? that, that those are social issues that come through. You talk about trans athletes. Let's just say it. Eighty five percent of Americans don't think that a man post puberty should compete against women in sports. You if you want to have that debate, have that debate. And if you don't like how I said it, you and the other 5%, you guys go in a corner somewhere and debate it. But right here, where 85% of Americans live, Republicans can try to scare people over trans issues or this is Americans are like, come on. And the end of the day, Mika, people vote their

interests. And at the end of the day, when the curtains close, they're going to ask themselves that question. Are you better off today than you were four years ago? Yeah. And Joe Biden has the ad out that I think is striking. And I think this is a theme they need to build upon. And this should be the first of many. Maybe it is. But they're using the time tested political question, which was originally posed by former President Ronald Reagan during a 1980 presidential debate. Are you better off now than you were four years ago? Here's the ad released yesterday. And then I see the disinfectant. And is there a way we can do something like that

by injection inside? And on a scale of one to 10, how would you rate your response to this crisis? I'd rate it a 10. I think we've done a great job. What do you say to Americans who are watching you right now who are scared? I say that you're a terrible reporter. That's what I say. Yeah, no, I don't take responsibility at all. We're doing, I think, really, really well. I'll tell you what, Al, a thousand Americans are dying today. They are dying. That's true. have it is what it is. Yeah, Joe, the only thing that ad is missing is Donald Trump telling Bob Woodward that he could have told the American people about this months and months before the pandemic began. Yeah, but but he didn't want to. Well, you know, he also he Sam, he also spent a lot of time running around four years ago talking about how it's only two people coming in from China. It was one person here, one person there also said President Xi did a remarkable job, was transparent on behalf of the American people.

On behalf of the American people, Donald Trump four years ago was thanking President Xi for doing such a great job on COVID. Yeah, it's kind of remarkable how much this election will hinge on whether or not Trump gets blamed for the last year of his presidency, right? I mean, he, in his retelling, his presidency ended in February of 2020, right? Everything after that, he doesn't want to talk about. He doesn't say it's his fault. COVID never happened in his retelling. But obviously now we're in that place where we can look back in the specific date and say, actually, it was this day when you promised that this virus was under control and that there were only 14 cases in America. It was this day that you suggested injection of bleach into the lungs may be a useful medication to combat COVID.

And we're going to have this over and over and over again because the last 10 months or nine months of his presidency before the election were horrifying for America, objectively. Mass death, stock market implosion, incredible amount of joblessness. And it won't be the deciding issue, but it'd be one of the deciding issues, how much voters both recall that year and what it was like and how much they blame Trump for that year. Trump is going to have to do a lot to convince him, hey, this wasn't my fault. But I don't think that's easy. Well, he can't because Democrats don't think he did enough. And of course, he had just absolutely insane press conferences.

Republicans think he did too much. So lots of luck with that. That was Ron DeSantis just kept hammering him for doing too much, for ordering Florida shut down, ordering other states shut down. Good luck with that. So, Donnie, we've given you an awful lot here to chew on. And I'm serious. I want to bring up one issue that Alex brought to my attention. That is an issue that would normally hurt Democrats, a social issue that would normally hurt Democrats. It is, of course, on the front page of the newspaper of record for Morning Joe, the New York Post onslaught. Now, listen, any other election cycle, again, it's not dispositive because it wasn't in 18.

It wasn't in 20. It wasn't in 20. It wasn't in 22. This is our Democrats. But if I'm a Democrat running for office and this is what I do, I pick up a paper. I pick up something. If I were a Democrat running for office, I would do this. I would be carrying this around all day. Look at what the Republicans are doing to you.

Look what Donald Trump's doing to you. Donald Trump said, Donald Trump said, and by the way, this is for you at home. So come to the at home camera, TJ. Thank you. God bless you. So good at this. And you think you just started last week. So I'm joking, TJ. So TJ, can I get a TJ cam? I hope TJ's in. Not yet. Not this second. Okay, good. He's not feeling free. He's in his underwear at home.

He's got one of those things at home. I was afraid I was, like, picking on a director that mattered. But, no, TJ's there. TJ's been with us for 20 years, by the way. He's family. Can't get rid of him. I would carry this around because see this onslaught headline. The only thing the Post didn't tell you is Donald Trump said, kill the bill and blame me for everything that happens after this point. Donald Trump said, blame me.

So, yes, Donald, we are blaming you. We're blaming many me, Mike Johnson, for following your orders. We're blaming Republicans who begged for a tough border bill, but like the Wall Street Journal editorial page said, couldn't take yes for an answer. So yes, there is an onslaught in the southern border still. And it's all Donald Trump's fault. You know who says that? Donald Trump. Donald Trump says blame him for this. So we will. So if there were a wall up there, right, too, it wouldn't be it all. It would be a non-issue. Well, of course. So he didn't build the wall. He didn't build the wall. He couldn't get it done. Didn't build the wall

either, which he said he was going to do. Joe, I'm going to hold up the paper record also to show you that I could not agree with you more. But talk about all of this when people, Colgate versus Kress, by needing to hold serve, like getting his base out, that is

so much easier to do in advertising or politics. I think that immigration is the issue. It's interesting. You talk to people and what they are so upset about is that when they hear something like they're taking a billion dollars out of the New York City budget to take care of illegal immigrants and you're going to have less teachers and less police officers, that hits you in the gut. The answer is the Democrats have to be offensive about that. Tom Suozzi ran a great campaign in the third district. Suozzi basically did this. Yes.

He basically is a Democrat and he was running against a very good candidate. And he said, look, the Democrats are the ones who want to put this problem to bed. The Democrats had the toughest immigration bill in a generation. And Donald Trump told the Republicans, don't vote for it. It's that simple. This is the issue. This is the issue that I believe is hitting people in the gut. In addition, obviously, to abortion. He also said, blame me. He said, blame me for killing the immigration bill. Blame me for everything that happened. Just like on abortion, he said that he was the one that terminated Roe v. Wade. Yeah. Repeatedly. So those are those are the two

benchmark abortion and immigration. I think those are the two guttural issues. And you've got to go offensive and say, guess what? Donald Trump is to blame for a woman's lack of a right to choose and potentially a national abortion ban. And at the same time, once again, Republicans are the ones to blame on immigration. It is not Joe Biden's fault. It is Donald Trump's fault. Who said that? Donald Trump? Exactly. He said, blame me. That's it. Wall Street Journal editorial page. It's not like the Wall Street Journal editorial page didn't warn them. Jen, yeah, yeah. A Wall Street Journal editorial page was begging them past this bill.

And again, we have to remember whose bill this was. This wasn't AOC's bill. This was James friggin Langford. Yeah. And Katie Britt. She was part of that. And Katie Britt. Yeah. Yeah. So and it's actually breaking through and polling, too. You know, it's so hard. I mean, it's so hard for Biden to break through in general. Right. That's why the money is important because of the ads. That's what that's how you bring the people back home. And it's also and the other thing that's hard to do is get into direct conflict with Trump and having that kind of contrast.

And by going to the border, Biden was able to do that. Biden went to the border to talk about the border security bill. Trump follows him. And then it broke through, like 63% of Americans in a poll showed that they think to blame the Republicans for the defeat of that bill. That's huge. Right, like that is like, this is is the and I think when people talk about immigration as the biggest issue, it's like it's

causing chaos and a lot of people's lives in a lot of different states, like as you described. And, you know, that is that's the fundamental argument against Republicans writ large. It's like they can't govern. It's just dysfunction. They put their extremist MAGA agenda on top of everything. And then that just makes the whole argument against Trump. You've now taken immigration, flipped it on as a vulnerability for Democrats, flipped it on its head and made it part of the fundamental argument against the MAGA extremist. You know what the dream is about this campaign, is is that and I don't know if you know this or not. I don't like to say it. Were you in Congress? I was. So the breakthrough in my campaign, because nobody knew who I was, but the breakthrough was

in the primary, somebody ran an ad, full page ad, and there were four quotes of my opponent. Four quotes, nothing else. My opponent's words, which did not play well. None of them played well for the electorate. And it made a huge difference. There's nothing more powerful than using other people's words against them. And when you in a political campaign and when you have Donald Trump saying, blame me for the border. You have Donald Trump saying I terminated Roe v. Wade. When you have Republicans going to the House floor screaming, we have done nothing. And I think I saw a clip. MTG is now saying this Republican House is a failure. They're saying it. They're giving Democrats the words they need. This is the worst, most ineffective, do nothing Congress

in a generation just by the numbers. So use it. Use their words against them. Well, I think the four years ago question is amazing. And I mean, you could. First of all, the problem for the Democrats is that there are so many to use. There are so many examples. It is, again, the fire hose of falsehoods or in this case, the firehose of examples from the Trump presidency. You could. Are you better than you were for cut to January 6th? You could cut to a scroll that would go on for four minutes. I mean, this is this is the election of all contrasts for the American voters. And we'll talk more about this ahead. But we have much more news to get to still ahead on Morning Joe. What we're learning about a possible Israel

Hamas ceasefire resolution that the U.N. is set to vote on this morning. Plus, President Biden has a new nickname for Donald Trump amid his fundraising troubles. We'll tell you what that is. Also ahead, the Manhattan district attorney has a pointed response to Trump's delay tactics in the New York hush money case. And Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren is our guest this morning. We have a lot to discuss with her, including the anniversary of the Affordable Care Act. That's another one. And the fight over abortion health care. That's another one. You're watching Morning Joe.

We'll be right back. Oh, look at that beautiful shot of Washington, D.C. It is 32 past the hour. Welcome back to Morning Joe. Secretary of State Antony Blinken is in Tel Aviv this morning meeting with Israeli leaders. It comes as the United Nations Security Council is set to vote today on a new ceasefire resolution that was introduced by the United States. The measure calls for an immediate and sustained ceasefire in the war in Gaza, saying it's imperative to protect civilians and ensure more aid can be delivered to the enclave. There is no direct call for the release of the remaining hostages,

but the resolution says it supports diplomatic efforts to secure a deal. This is the strongest language the White House has supported so far. It is a shift from last month when the U.S. vetoed a similar resolution over concerns voting for the measure could disrupt hostage negotiations. But in recent weeks, the Biden administration has been more outspoken in its push for a ceasefire, warning civilians in Gaza are on the brink of famine. Meanwhile, House Speaker Mike Johnson says he plans to invite Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to speak to Congress. The last time Netanyahu addressed a joint session was in 2015. Back then, both chambers were controlled by Republicans.

Netanyahu used his time to criticize the Obama administration for negotiating a nuclear deal with Iran. Things are really different right now, Joe. And the division between Republicans and Democrats once again is sort of showing itself in this issue with the Israeli prime minister. Well, I mean, I wish we had a fainting couch. I know Benjamin Netanyahu came to the United States, went into the people's house, the heart of American democracy and attacked a Democratic president. Why? This is a democracy. I thought fellow democracies weren't supposed to interfere with. I mean, such garbage. It is such garbage. Sam Stein, the Biden administration has been moving toward toward where they're where they're where Blinken says we're going now with a U.N.

ceasefire. Talk about that process, how this has been a long time coming and what the White House expects out of it. I think the word long time coming is accurate here. I mean, the frustration level with the Netanyahu government has been just growing and growing over weeks and months. And, you know, frankly, it's remarkable to a degree that the administration has stayed as supportive as it's been, considering the backlash that the president has endured. But internally, they've been warning against the Rafah invasion. They've pushed it off. But Netanyahu has not ruled it out.

They want to get more humanitarian aid into Gaza. Netanyahu has not helped with that. He's questioned the decision to build a pier for the delivery of the aid. And they've also basically plotted for the idea that Netanyahu won't hold on to political power once this war ends. But as we all know, Netanyahu is not going to go quietly and he's not has no plans to end the war anytime soon. And so, you know, we're at a place now where the administration is willing to work a little bit more through the U.N. Obviously, they're not willing to endorse what Chuck Schumer said. But I thought the most instructive comment of the past month was when Biden was asked about that Chuck Schumer speech, where Chuck Schumer said, we need to have a new government in Israel. Biden didn't say anything other than that was a good speech. He didn't endorse it. But he said

that was a pretty good speech. And that just gives you a great insight into where the president's head is at and just the frustration level inside the administration. Well, and again, of course, the idiots who attacked Chuck Schumer for being insufficiently Jewish, insufficiently Zionist. I can't. Donald Trump calling him a bad Jew. And in fact, other people saying he was not a friend of Israel, that he turned on Israel. How insulting. I mean, I worked with Chuck Schumer for years. We were, yes, in the house together. I never heard anybody more pro-Israel, more pro-Zionist than Chuck Schumer. When Chuck Schumer is giving that speech, that tells you that he's very worried, as am I, about Israel standing not in Luxembourg, not across the globe. I'm worried about America's

standing here because I have children, 87 children, a spade of children. I have four, but it does seem sometimes, like there's a lot of children. But anyway, there is just an extraordinary change of attitudes among Americans under 40. Extraordinary. And it is anti-Israel. And no, it's not just younger Americans on college campuses. It's just about it is a lot of Americans under 40. And my children have been very, very concerned for their Jewish friends. They've been very, very concerned at how intense it has become. So I'm concerned about that. I'm also very concerned about civilians in Gaza. This idea that you want the United States

and the world community to do something to stop an oncoming famine somehow makes you hate Israel. There are two words I'd like to say that I can't say on the air. Nobody has been more. And we had Jonathan Greenblatt come up. He'll tell you. And Jonathan may disagree with me on this issue. We'll see. But one thing you won't disagree with me on is that. I've been fighting against anti-Semitism my entire adult life and my entire career in Congress and on television. And I've been really outspoken about it. And I'm at least I'm really concerned. I'm concerned about this.

I'm concerned about Benjamin Netanyahu. I'm concerned about the fact that he knew where Hamas was getting its money in 2018. He refused to cut it off. I'm concerned that he sent his government to Doha three weeks before the attacks and said, give Hamas more money. I'm concerned that he continued to prop Hamas up. I'm concerned that Benjamin Netanyahu's government had Hamas's terrorist plans a year before the terrorist attacks, and they did nothing. I'm concerned that Benjamin Netanyahu, after the attacks, did nothing for six, seven, eight, ten hours. They were ill-prepared. I've never seen anything like it. It shattered

my belief and everything I ever thought about, about Israel's ability to defend itself. And by the way, it's not that we've been wrong all these years. It's that Benjamin Netanyahu was in charge and he led Israel to that point. And I'm very concerned that what he continues to do, whatever he can do to stay in power, because the second he's out of power, he's got three indictments. You might go to jail. So it's a very simple equation. As long as the war continues, Benjamin Netanyahu doesn't have to worry about going to jail. The second the war ends, Benjamin Netanyahu has to worry about going to jail. Are we really going to tie Israel's future up to this man and say, if those of us who love Israel, those of us who were taught in Sunday school when we were five years old, that Jews are God's chosen people and Israel is where they need to be to be protected because six million were

slaughtered in the Holocaust. Are we not allowed to question Benjamin Netanyahu's motives? Because if not, that's pretty sick. And it's not in Israel's best interest. Well, you put it well when you said it's not anti-Semitism to not want to see mass starvation in Gaza when the U.N. is saying that 65 percent of Gazans are at risk of starving. And we see the images of children. We see the children who are being amputated without anesthesia, women having C-sections without anesthesia. Why is that material not getting through? The tunnels had to be destroyed. The international community agreed. No sympathy for Hamas. Get Hamas out. Do it. They do not like now watching the indiscriminate raising of civilian territory and civilians who have nowhere to flee. And so let the aid come in. Let the civilians have a safe haven. You know, I keep asking myself, are we going to risk our democracy for this man?

Because those young folk aren't going to turn out. Remember when you said we have to whole serve? Are we going to risk our democracy for Netanyahu? And then there's the moral question, Joe, the moral question, you know, evil does not justify evil. An act of evil does not justify evil, period. And I say that coming out of my reading of Micah chapter six, verse eight, act justly and old Testament, love mercy, love mercy and walk humbly with God. And it seems to me that orientation and within the Jewish tradition, I'm not trying to speak for the Jewish tradition at all within the Jewish tradition. That argument is being had.

I don't want to risk our democracy for Netanyahu. And I definitely don't want to be complicit with evil, even as I acknowledge the evil of October 7th. By the way, if we love Israel, we can criticize Israel just like we criticize the United States. I love the United States. And I'm telling you, David Ignatius, Richard Haass and others said the same thing after October 7th. And they said what I said, which is Hamas has to be destroyed. Hamas can never rule Gaza again. Hamas will never rule Gaza again. I knew the second it happened and I saw it, I said, well, that's the end of Hamas.

There's going to be a hell of a lot of suffering between now and then. But Hamas is finished. They will not govern Gaza ever again, Donnie. And that is the case. But I also I also heard the warnings that don't repeat the mistakes the United States made after 9-11. Don't have your Iraq. Be precise. Know what you're doing. Go after Hamas leaders. Kill them. But understand this. And we said this from day one, that part of Hamas's plan. Yes. Was to kill Jews. So Netanyahu would kill 10 times as many Palestinians. What did we say from day one?

You can check the tape. We said a dead Jew is a win for Hamas. A dead Palestinian? Oh, that's a much bigger win for Hamas. And that is exactly the game they were playing. Yeah, I'm going to say a few things. It's, by the way, not the game, the deadly, deadly strategy. It's challenging being a Jew right now because there are two things can exist at the same

time, right? You can say, on the one hand, Netanyahu's got to go. Netanyahu had to go before October 7th because basically he tried to make the judicial system is in the house legal system. But that doesn't mean that you still don't believe Israel has every right to defend itself. Israel needs to finish Hamas off. That's kind of a funky question at this point, because you can't go into Rafa, but you got to finish Hamas off. And that's a Rubik's cube that we have to say is a Rubik's cube. But Israel has to defend itself. You can be a Zionist. You can obviously understand everything and be passionate

about Israel and Israel's need to defend itself and Israel's need to exist. But say their leader is not the right leader for the future. Those two things can exist at the same time. The one thing I do want to add that just kind of gnaws at me a little bit that because everything is on Israel, we still don't talk about Hamas and that Hamas was offered a ceasefire two times and that Hamas is responsible for killing their own people. Let's not forget the initial villain in this disgusting passion play that's going on right now. Let's not forget that. But two things can be true at the same time. You can be a hawk. You can believe that Israel needs to do everything it needs to do to rid itself of Hamas.

But say Benjamin Netanyahu is not the right guy for the job. Go. Yeah. And again, we've said it will continue to say it. Hamas, Hamas has to be destroyed. Period. They just do. It's like when the towers went down, second, that tower fell. I said, well, you know, somewhere that Osama bin Laden understands he just achieved catastrophic success. He is going to die. We will hunt him down as long as it takes and we will kill him. And we did. And it's the same thing with the Moss leaders. I mean, do you have to kill 10,000 more Palestinians for that to happen? No, may not happen in the next couple of weeks, but it will

happen. Hamas will be finished, buried, done for. They sealed their fate on October 7th. so it is so offensive for Donald Trump to say you can't be a good Jew and vote for Democrats. Just like it's offensive for people to say you can't be a Zionist and a supporter of Israel and a supporter of Jews and a fighter and defender of Jews and their right to exist where they want to exist. Unless you support Benjamin Netanyahu. I just those words are so gross and offensive. It's one of many. And that's the point that we were making earlier. There's so much with all that said. And before we get to our next guest, here's a reminder of what former President Trump said on Monday about American Jews. Why do the Democrats hate Bibi Netanyahu? I actually think they hate Israel.

Yes. I don't think they hate it. I think they hate Israel. When you see those Palestinian marches, even I, I'm amazed at how many people are in those marches. And guys like Schumer see that and to him, it's votes. I think it's votes more than anything else, because he was always pro Israel. He's very anti-Israel now. Any Jewish person that votes for Democrats hates their religion. They hate everything about Israel and they should be ashamed of themselves. Let's bring right now the CEO of the Anti-Defamation League, Jonathan Greenblatt,

and also former reporter for The Wall Street Journal, Matthew Brzezinski, who has a guest essay for MSNBC titled The American Jewish Community Must See Through Netanyahu Cynicism. Jonathan, we have so much, so much to talk to you about. I'm so glad you're here. I'd like you to do two thingsnie. I need you to help Donnie through. And I'm serious because Donnie, like a lot of American Jews, are really twisted up right now. Obviously, we talked about the pain and the heartache and just the fear after October 7th. Right now, a lot of a lot of Jewish Americans are grappling with other feelings, mixed feelings about Netanyahu, what they're seeing on the front pages of the newspaper, how to sort through it all. What are your thoughts?

There's a lot there. Let me try to break it down. So first, with respect to what President Trump said. Obviously, it's patently false and prejudicial. It is bigotry to say that Jews hate Israel if they vote for the Democratic Party. I don't need President Trump or any politician to lecture me on how I am supposed to vote. And Israel has been a bipartisan concern for decades and decades and decades. There's been consensus on supporting the Jewish state because it's a democracy, because it's our best ally in the Middle East, because it's committed to the same kind of values that America is committed to. And so for that reason, again, Democrats and Republicans have been good on Israel. But look, the person who dines with Nick Fuentes, you know, it's kind of calling the kettle black to tell us what's anti-Semitic or not. I mean, really? I mean, give me a break. Really? But to your second point, like I read Matthew's essay about

his daughter and it was painful for me. It's painful to see the spike in anti-Semitic attitudes in the United States. We just did one of our surveys, Joe, and we found like a decade ago, 9% of Americans had intense anti-Semitic attitudes. Today, 10 years later, it's almost 25%. Okay. And the numbers among young people are even more intense. Typically, there's an Archie Bunker effect. Older people are more prejudiced than younger people. Not now, not when it comes to anti-Semitism. But I have to say one thing, and this is maybe for Donnie, because you were trying to bring it back, Donnie, and I appreciated that. And Elise was talking about, you know, the people being operated on without anesthesia and the pain and the suffering, let us not forget the 130 hostages being held in tunnels below Gaza. The disabled and the elderly, men and women, innocent people who were raped, tortured,

torn from their homes while their loved ones were murdered alongside of them. And I say this because what makes this different than after 9-11 in Afghanistan, what makes this different than after the situation in Syria, is there are innocent people being held in a tunnel system built by Hamas over two decades that apparently rivals the Paris metro. So again, I want this war to end. Every innocent killed is a disaster. Every civilian who dies, it's a tragedy. But if Hamas returned the hostages today, this would end like that. So when we talk about a ceasefire, we talk about a cessation of violence. When we talk about the young people like Eddie did, let's keep in mind why this started. And I not a military strategist i don't know how to quote

end hamas although i agree with the sentiment but i do know these hostages need to come home now they have nothing to do with a global conflict and hamas's homicidal agenda if you want to end that start by bringing the hostages home period matth Matthew, in your new piece, you write in part this, quote, American Jews have long identified with the underdog. They rallied to the fence of black Americans during the civil rights movement, often at great personal peril, and more recently served as key supporters of the Black Lives Matter movement. Now, Israel's long term prospects could depend on American Jews taking

up the cause of a two state solution. Difficult as that may be in the aftermath of Hamas's terrorism, the stakes are incredibly high. If Israel continues to follow Netanyahu's disastrous path, Israel risks becoming diplomatically isolated and a pariah state. And I've got to say, Matthew, on a more personal level, for you, this is extraordinarily personal for you as a daughter on a college campus who is being shouted at for wearing your Star of David. Yes, well, I mean, so my children are Jewish under rabbinical law, but more importantly, they've all decided that they want to identify as Jews culturally.

And I wholeheartedly supported that decision. And unfortunately, in the past few months, it's a decision that has led them to be harassed and one that they are showing tinges of regret for. And that alarmed me. And so I decided to speak out. And I think that they're representative of, you know, as you were saying earlier, the younger generation in this country is heartbroken by what's going on over there. And Netanyahu has reputationally brought Israel to the brink. Sam Stein, do you have a question for Jonathan Greenblatt? Yeah, I mean, Jonathan, I hear you and I understand exactly where you're coming from. I think

many Jews feel like Trump's attack on dual loyalty is prejudicial. And I also understand where you're coming from on how you want to see this war ended. I wonder, though, when you look at the Netanyahu government, does part of you fear at all what he's doing to Jews not in Israel, that his actions have isolated Israel, but also sparked a wave of anti-Semitism. And I don't mean that to blame Jews for a spike of anti-Semitism, but I do think that the two are interrelated. And I'm curious if you have thought about that, and if you feel angst at how this Israeli government has prosecuted this war. Look, I feel angst all the time. I think that's part of the Jewish condition. Yes, fair enough.

But what I will tell you is that there's no question Bibi Netanyahu is certainly not my favorite politician, right? And I have criticized him and I have criticized the policies of his government. But the fact of the matter, and you just said something that I want to draw on, I don't like blaming the victim. In the year 2022, when Naftali Bennett was the prime minister, when they had an Arab Muslim in the coalition, the most diverse leadership coalition in Israel's 75-year history, we had here in America, Sam, the highest number of anti-Semitic incidents we'd ever tracked until that time. So again, a liberal democracy with a multicultural, multi-political coalition, and yet still anti-Semitism was raging here in the United States.

And now I'm sure the numbers are going to be far worse for this year. Spasms of violence in the Middle East often trigger anti-Jewish action here. But did anyone think it was OK when Asian-American people were being assaulted, when they were being harassed and victimized because of what Beijing was doing around COVID? Would anyone think it was okay, Sam, if worshipers at Russian Orthodox churches were harassed and harangued by masked activists because they're upset about Ukraine? I mean, that idea is preposterous. Would anyone think it would be okay to vandalize Panda Express

because you're upset about the Uyghur Muslims? Of course, that would be absurd. But somehow it's open season on Jews. In just the past week, or two weeks, Madis Yahu, a Jewish musician, he wasn't allowed to do his concert in Chicago because Chicago PD said they didn't have enough protection. My friend Brett Gelman, an actor and an author, his book signings have been canceled in places like Los Angeles because of protests about Gaza. When American Jews are blamed for what's happening in the Middle East, that should worry all of us because we know as Americans, we are a multi-ethnic, multi-racial democracy, and it is not okay to hold anyone collectively responsible for things you don't like around the world.

But yet when it comes to Jews, we're told, hide your Star of David. When it comes to Jews, we're told, you need more protection at your synagogue. When it comes to Jews, we're told, it's your fault and you need to protect yourselves. I mean, this is nuts. I'll make one last point. After the murder of Jamal Khashoggi by the Saudi government, the protector of the holy places, the embodiment of Islam. Would anyone have said it's okay to, again, stage demonstrations in front of mosques or Islamic centers to ban Rami from doing a show? But that's what's happening here now to Jews, and it is not okay. That should alarm all of us because this isn't just anti-Semitic, Sam. This is anti-American. When a slice of your colleagues and neighbors

and friends and family members are being told, hide your identity, squelch your religion, because it's open season on you. But that's what's happening on our college campuses right now. That's what's happening in public places right now. So I'm not disputing the tragedy in Gaza, but I am saying protect your Jewish family members and friends with everything you got. Because this is a moment when it counts. Elise. Matthew, Elise Jordan here. I have now what's kind of an impossible question to ask, but I have to ask you, as your uncle was,

Dr. Brzezinski, what would he do right now if he were looking for a diplomatic solution, looking to push this situation in a more realistic direction as he was such a practitioner of the school of realism? Well, he actually long advocated that Israel's long-term security was intricately linked with Palestinian well-being. And he felt that, you know, the fate of the Palestinians was often put aside in the name of regional security and that this was short sighted and could lead to situations such as the one we find ourselves in now. So, you know, I think that he would advocate for massive aid and food to flood into Gaza, because, you know, if people around the world start seeing photographs similar to one that the New York Times published earlier in the week of starving children. Oh, boy, that's going to be that's going to make Jonathan's job really hard. It's going to be disastrous. And I think he would advocate for, you know, countries from all over the world to come in and launch a reconstruction program and, you know, and finally put an end to, you know, this has been

going on for half a century. And, you know, whether it's a two-state solution, some hybrid model. But, you know, I think that this has to end. And it is hurting everyone. And most of all, you know, it is hurting Israel. And I think that if this was solved, support for Israel would come flooding back. And there's a, you there's a historical blueprint for that right here in America. As Joe mentioned, after 9-11, we went into Iraq. And even our staunchest allies fled. And our international standing plummeted. And Obama was elected, took us out of Iraq.

And all those allies, the world breathed the collective sigh of relief. And all those allies came flooding back. I am sure that support for Israel, you know, would absolutely go back to what it once was once this issue was solved. All right, Matthew Brzezinski, thank you so much. You can read his guest essay on MSNBC dot com and CEO of Anti-Defamation League, Jonathan Greenblatt. Thank you as well as always. Greatly appreciate it. By the way, Matthew has a piece that's coming out on MSNBC dot com. And Mika, we hear about how bad things are going in Ukraine, but the numbers he has, the numbers that he's reporting on,

there's, of course, what's happening on the ground, which is very difficult. But Matthew's talking about and following the number of Russian planes that are being shot down by the week, basically how much the Ukrainians are dominating now, the air, what they're doing at sea, dominating the sea, doing things that are really putting Russians back on their heels. It's a pretty extraordinary story. I look forward to that, for sure.