Morning Joe - Morning Joe 3/2/23

Episode Date: March 2, 2023

Merrick Garland grilled by GOP lawmakers

I love your Republican colleagues you have to work with, the mega Republicans. They're amazing. They're really amazing, their calculations. They say Biden and the Democrats, because they brought down the price of drugs, they're increasing inflation. Well, it has the advantage not only of people being able to live longer and better and be able to afford their prescription drugs, but guess what? It reduces the deficit to $158 billion. Don't forget that part to tell people. It's not just that you pay less for the drug.

It means that the federal government isn't paying for the federal government's money, paying for those drugs for Medicare. President Joe Biden in Baltimore last night debunking Republican claims about the deficit and calling on Democrats to remind Americans what his administration has achieved over the past two years. Meanwhile, on Capitol Hill, a hearing dominated by grievance politics as Attorney General Merrick Garland makes his first appearance before the new Congress. He actually had insurrectionists, like the guy with like, what is it really like the bird, the bird bone hands, like doing the power of the people signal. The raised fist, that's right.

Raised fist of a bird. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there we go. I tell you what, a brisk wind could break that arm right off. Needs to be careful. But anyway. Or his Democratic challenger.

No, but he just, but anyway, can you believe that insurrectionists that were trying to overthrow American democracy can sit up in front of Merrick Garland, a guy who's dedicated his life to the rule of law and be self-righteous, Willie? What a joke. It was quite a display. And since we've started in on it, we might as well show this is the Senate

Judiciary Committee hearing yesterday where you had, as you point out, many of the very people who cheered on the attack of January 6th, who cheered on the overturning of the 2020 election, even after the attack, by the way, voted for that, putting Attorney General Merrick Garland in the hot seat yesterday on a variety of issues. Here's some of what happened yesterday. I have to say I'm deeply disappointed in what the last two years have shown. In my judgment, the Department of Justice has been politicized to the greatest extent I've ever seen in this country. And it has done a discredit to the Department of Justice, to the FBI, and to the administration of law in this country.

I also want to at least respond to your characterization of the department, which I vigorously disagree with. I believe the men and women of the department pursue their work every single day in a nonpartisan and an appropriate way. General Garland, when rioters descended at the homes of six Supreme Court justices, night after night after night, you did nothing. Have you brought a single case against any of these protesters threatening the judgment, justices under 18 U.S.C. Section 1507? Have you brought even one? Senator, you asked me whether I sat on my hands

and quite the opposite. I sent 70 United States Marshals. Why are you unwilling to say no? The answer's no. You know it's no. I know it's no. Everyone in this hearing room knows it's no. You're not willing to answer a question.

When you issued your directive, when you directed your criminal divisions and your counterterrorism divisions to investigate parents who are angry at school boards. I did not do that. I did not issue any memorandum directing the investigation of parents who are concerned about their children. The memorandum was aimed at violence and threats of violence against a whole host of school personnel. It was not aimed at parents making complaints to their school board. Attorney General, are you cultivating sources and spies in Latin Mass parishes and other Catholic parishes around the country? The Justice Department does not do that.

How many informants do you have in Catholic churches across America? I don't know, and I don't believe we have any informants aimed at Catholic churches. Does your department have a problem with anti-Catholic bias? Our department protects all religions and all ideologies. It does not have any bias against any religion of any kind. Decisions about how to go about this were made on the ground by FBI agents. So you're saying you don't know? I'm saying what I just said. Which is that you're abdicating responsibility? I'm not abdicating responsibility.

Give me the answer. Do you think, in your opinion, you are the Attorney General of the United States. You are in charge of the Justice Department. And yes, sir, you are responsible. So give me an answer. We're supposed to hate long guns and assault-style weapons. You're happy to deploy them against Catholics and innocent children. Joe, we've got to start with the acting. Oh, my God.

You know, I was just thinking, Willie, the acting, I'm so glad you picked up on that. Because as I was looking at this, I was thinking, I really think that Morning Show should do, I think, a service to all of these members. We could play the Sarah McLachlan tune into the arms of an angel, right? And say for five dollars, for just five dollars, you can contribute to people who are insurrectionists against the United States of America, who tried to overthrow a Democratic election and help them with acting lessons. Because I must say, by the way, here we have these three, these three populists, the guy's screaming. And again, some of the worst acting I've seen. I'm still about to. But anyway, you've got the first guy was a Princeton boy,

who I think he went to Harvard Law School. And then you had the corn pone guy, the Oxford boy who voted for John Kerry. And then you had Josh Hawley screaming the insurrectionists. Look at this chart. I love this. And then you had, you had, they don't have the Oxford boy. I'm embarrassed for Oxford boy. And then you had Josh Hawley, who went Yale undergrad and then Stanford Law School. And they're all screaming and yelling, doing their populist nonsense. But I mean, this is this is very good. But we need we need just Oxford. If we can do one that just has members who went to Oxford and voted for John Kerry and play right wing populist, that would be great. Maybe we can we can work on that one, too.

But first of all, that was so bad. about the most politicized Justice ever following Donald Trump's Justice Department and bar who played again, who just played Donald Trump's lackey until the very end when he decided, well, I need to get out and write a book about how I saved how I won the war. It's really it's mind boggling. And then you got, you know, these guys pick up things off the Internet and they actually have the temerity to act shocked and then ask Mary Garland, do you take long guns after little children? Like, what are they doing? This is like this is like who's who's the oldest Republican ever? And Strom Thurmond? Well, not Strom.

Chuck Grassley. I thought you meant in history. Chuck Grassley. Grassley. Grassley. What is it with these people? Oh, they're taking AR-15, so they're kicking down doors

and shooting people. Now Josh Hawley says they're doing that to Catholic. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. Yeah, that they're doing this, Willie. But again, you had Donald Trump, not one of them complained when Donald Trump was pushing his attorney general to arrest his political opponent and their family two weeks before the presidential election. And these are the people that led the insurrection against the United States government from within the

legislative branch. And they're the ones that are the most shocked and stunned. Like, what a joke. Yeah, I think they're probably not shocked and stunned, as we saw by some of that bad acting. We've got to get a workshop or something. Maybe, don't know if Rob Reiner would volunteer some of his time. Some of our great directors are just kind of help them in these performances because it's it's a little much, as you point out, because these are the very people. These are the very senators who cheered on the insurrection, who supported the people who went to the Capitol, attacked the Capitol. And I won't even explain to you if you're watching the show, wondering what Senator Hawley was talking about there. It's a story about a man in Pennsylvania who stands outside abortion clinics and harasses women as they go in and out, got into a confrontation,

a shoving match with someone at one of them. He was charged with assault. He was acquitted later. But it was the way he was arrested that Josh Hawley's talking about that FBI agent showed up at his house with guns to arrest him. They thought that was too much. That's what he's talking about. If you're living in your life every day, going about your life or your job and with your kids, you may not know about that. But it's something that has consumed certain corners of cable news and the Internet. And that's what he brought to that hearing with the attorney general yesterday. So seizing on these people, these incidents to make a larger point in their eyes about the weaponized Department of Justice. Again, the very people who pushed and pursued an insurrection

against the United States government. And I do wonder. And I have always wondered this. Why didn't why didn't they get investigated? Why didn't members of the House that knew what was coming? Remember the tours, the ones that gave the tours, the ones that wore Kevlar vests, the ones that brought guns January 6th because they knew there was going to be trouble. Why did the Justice Department ever go after them? Why didn't the I still want to know. I said it the day after sort of screamed at the day after. Why aren't these people who knew about the insurrection and were part of the insurrection? Why haven't they ever been charged? It seems to be a good question. I mean, I understand there are a lot of people that that think you should overthrow the federal government. Apparently, the 40 percent who

still support Donald Trump. I mean, I think Donald Trump's going to win the Republican nomination, which means the Republican base supports the overthrowing of the federal government whenever your side election denialism. Well, yeah, election denial. It's the same thing. If you overthrow, if you want to overthrow an election just because your side loses. And by the way, the more I see, the more I read, the more I talk to people, the more it's very clear they don't care.

They don't care that Donald Trump tried to overthrow American democracy. They don't care that Donald Trump tried to overthrow American democracy. They don't care that he tried to throw out a presidential election. They don't care that he wanted to terminate the Constitution of the United States. This, Democrats, is who you're going to face. And if he gets elected, you know, because everybody's talking about DeSantis. I don't see it. I just don't see it. I think DeSantis is going to melt if he goes up against Donald Trump on the debate stage. There's going to be a guy who if he gets elected.

Katie, bar the door. He's already said he wants to terminate the Constitution of the United States and Republicans love him. He's already tried to overthrow American democracy and Republicans still love him. He's already tried to arrest his political opponent like they do in banana republics with two weeks remaining yelling at his attorney general to arrest his political opponent and family two weeks before the election. And everybody loves him in the Republican Party. This is the ongoing threat to American democracy. And I'll tell you what, Mika, it's frightening. It is. And he has proven time and time again, we could spend an hour going through all the different ways he has proven he will do anything to win reelection. He is running from the law now. Winning reelection is the only way to get away from that.

And on top of it, there is an entire ecosystem that supports this in politics and media. Well, especially in media, they just lie. Just in media, they just lie and lie and lie and lie. And then turn around and go, oh, look at the bird over there. Look at the bird over there. The energy department has low confidence that maybe there was a leak from a Chinese lab. Look at the bird over there. Don't look at us. Don't look at us lying day in

and day out to our viewers about the stolen election, which is what they did day in and day out and day in and day out. So along with Joe, Willie and me, we have the bird over there being distracted by what we are doing at Fox. Columnist and associate editor for The Washington Post, David Ignatius, former aide to the George Bush White House and State Department's Elise Jordan, and host of way too early White House PR chief of Politico, Jonathan Lemire. And Joe is feeling better today. I'm feeling fine.

It's just it's just Elise Jordan. You know, here we go. We used to say of a certain Democratic president at the end of the 90s, all Republicans said he has no shame. He should be dignified. He should resign. He has no shame. And that's all. And Bill Bennett would write books about values and other people would write books that said when character still counted and character. How could how could Bill Clinton ever be president of the United States? He has no character. He doesn't. You can't be a good president if you're not a good man. Do you know? Yes, you know, because you were in my party. That's all people talked about all the time. And now they all lie. They all lie. They talk to each other in a little group

and then go out and all lie on TV. They all lie in committee hearing meetings. They all lie for a man who has said. And he can't lie his way out of this because he wrote it. He wants to terminate the Constitution of the United States and this Republican Party. That was so shocked and stunned and deeply saddened about Bill Clinton. They are going to nominate him and he's going to run for president and they're going to all get behind him again. But Joe, what's so funny about that almost if, you know, the destruction of Democratic norms, if there's anything humorous about that at all, is that most of those Republicans do not want Donald Trump back, yet they are such wimps that they're going to just go along with it. And he'll probably end up in exactly the same point, because at least in the 2016 primary,

you would have Republican opposition candidates going up against Donald Trump and trying to take him on and attack him. And this time you just see everyone tiptoeing. Ron DeSantis sure isn't trying to land any punches. Donald Trump is already going out against him and trying to get some kind of response. And occasionally he'll get a little bit, but not, you know, Ron DeSantis is trying to stay away. They know that Donald Trump can get gloves on them and permanently wound them. And they even after January 6th won't take another tack. And we're going to see that dynamic on display this week. It's CPAC kicking off and all these candidates are skipping this event just outside Washington, D.C. With the exception of Nikki Haley, she'll be there. But it's the Donald

Trump show and he's speaking Saturday night. This is in many ways his team is perceiving as the true launch of his campaign because he's certainly been off to a faltering start to this point. But this will be in front of a very friendly audience that is representative, no, not the entire Republican Party, but a significant piece of it and a piece of it that he has firmly in his grip. And certainly right now, strategists, both sides of the party, yes, the anti-Trump movement, if you will, on the Republican side seems to be coalescing around DeSantis, at least for the time being. It's unclear if that will stay there. The more candidates jump in, the better it is for Trump. But right now, Trump is David Ignatius, clearly at this moment, early March 2023. So with all the caveats that we're

a long way from the election, but he's the favorite. He's the clear favorite. And it seems to Joe's point that it doesn't matter what he's done. He's the guy. Nothing can knock him off. And there's a growing belief that even some of this legal peril might actually help his standing within the Republican Party, because he can point to, as we heard the groundwork being laid yesterday from his friends in the Senate, bias in the federal government and the Justice Department to try to bring him down. Well, heaven forbid, if his legal troubles end up being a positive campaign issue for him. We're really in worse shape even than Joe said.

The thing that I'm finding troubling is just a few months ago at the time of the midterm elections, I think it was widely said, I certainly said it, that crazy is out. That the country is getting sick of crazy politics and extreme candidates, extreme election denier views, threats to topple election monitoring systems. That was out. And the more sensible people in the center of the two parties were were doing better and now we have this the circus that you just showed with josh hawley and ted cruz with the most outrageous charges is this amazing to see that probably the most mild-mannered person in washington america and our attorney general fending off these almost hysterical claims from republicans but what makes me sad is if it's true that crazy is back and crazy is popular again, we're in trouble. And Joe, there's been a lot of wish casting among Republicans. I think Ron DeSantis is the guy or maybe candidate X or Y is the one who finally

turns the corner for us. And there will be, as John said, this other group of Republicans, not at CPAC, they'll be at the breakers with the Club for Growth down in Palm Beach with a bunch of fundraisers, I guess, plotting, figuring out how do we run against Donald Trump. But if you look at the polling for all that wish casting, it's just not even close right now. By the way, DeSantis isn't even in the race. It's not close. It's Donald Trump for all the hopes, even among many Republicans publicly now and many of them privately, that they've turned a corner, that he's in the rearview mirror. It's just not

happening. It's not happening right now anyway. And it's not clear who that person is who can turn the corner for them. I mean, Ron DeSantis doesn't want to cross Donald Trump. No, because he knows if he did what happened to the last governor from Florida that ran against Donald Trump in 2016? What happened to him? So he doesn't, Ron DeSantis doesn't want to cross Donald Trump. He's figured it out. If you're a politician, or I guess a boxer, or whatever you are, if you're a wide receiver against a cornerback, you line up, you go, I can beat this guy. You can just tell. And you can just tell looking at Ron DeSantis,

he doesn't want to cross Donald Trump. Certainly not on the debate stage because that's just not going to end well. And so the Republicans, because they don't have what it takes, I won't use the word, there's not a Republican that has what it takes to cross Donald Trump. He'll win the nomination. Crazy. We'll be back. I mean, that's going to be the new fall color. You know, old is new again, right?

And they're going to be wearing that for another year through 2024 and what's going to happen hold on a second i'm gonna hold on a second early to be let's figure this out what's gonna oh they're gonna lose the general election again who could have ever seen that coming well i don't want to take that chance who could no they do they're gonna take that chance because nobody has the strength. We'll just say strength. Nobody has the strength to take Donald Trump on. OK, so they'll lose in 24 like they lost in 22, 21, 20, 19, 18, 17. Are you picking up a trend here? I'm feeling like we need to go to break.

Are you picking up a trend here? Nothing got done this block. The fact, no, no, we've established that crazy. Is back. Is back. Yeah. And that the Republicans lose. And what do they learn from that?

Nothing. They double down. There was a lot of hot stove. They're going to lose again. I know. 50 times. Like how many times do you burn yourself? My hand. They keep doing it. Do you know what? David Ignatius, we're going to we're going to raise we're going to raise it up. Right. When they go low, we go high. Uh-huh. And we're going to talk to David Ignatius. He's got this great column about what Joe Biden can do to help the relations with China.

OK, that's true. He doesn't have to even make a death-defying train ride. He can do it inside his Oval Office. OK. And we're going to, when we come back, we're going to go high. OK? I like it. And talk to David about his new article. We're going to ignore. Can I see the Ivy League Republicans again? OK.

And we are going to go. I don't know. TJ, did you do this? TJ universities. I mean, are they bragging that these people graduated from Yale and Harvard? I don't think honestly. Now I understand why my father turned down. I mean, I don't understand. Here I Honestly, now I understand why my father turned down going back to Harvard. I mean, I don't understand. Here, I'm told one. We're getting ready. It's coming, yeah. Hey, we're not Heilman.

You can put it up. No, you can put it up. We're here. I love when Heilman is giving directions. What, are you guys having to paint it? Okay. They have to repaint the whole thing. Look at that.

Okay. Very good. Thanks, Yale. Thanks, Harvard. Thanks, Harvard. Thanks, Stanford. Thanks, Ron DeSantis. Our populist guy from... Still ahead on Morning Joe. Congresswoman Marjorie

Taylor Greene. By the way, he talks like this now. I like to concoct your dog and a dog don't hunt like that. And get me a latte, please. A dog don't hunt like that. And then in a latte, please. A dog don't hunt like that. And then in 2004, he was like, I am voting for Senator John Kerry because I am a Democrat and I believe he is best for Louisiana. He doesn't talk like that. I know. It's like it changed. It changed depending

on that dog. Don't hunt. Let me tease and then we're going to reset. You do that? Okay. Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene blames President Biden for the deaths of two young men. Oh, that's terrible. From fentanyl. That's terrible. Joe Biden, you must. Oh, wait a second.

Wait a minute. They died during the Trump administration. Oh. How President Biden is responding to that. I would have never thought that she didn't actually do her research. Yeah. Whether it's on that or on Jewish space lasers. Plus, a U.S. pharmaceutical giant is slashing the cost of insulin, and the Biden administration is taking a victory lap on that. Also ahead, jury deliberations

are set to begin today in Alec Murdoch's high-profile double-murdle trial in South Carolina. We'll get a live report. He keeps sincere when he's crying like that. It was a rough. You know, he could use some acting lessons, too. That was rough to watch. We'll get a live report. When he's crying like that. It was a rough. You know, he could use some acting lessons, too. That was rough to watch. We'll get a live report from outside the courthouse. And a look at how Congress is taking action after the toxic train derailment in Ohio, which is nearly four weeks ago now. And this programming note.

Next Wednesday, Joe and I will be live from Abu Dhabi, where I will be co-moderating an iconic conversation along with Hillary Rodham Clinton at the Forbes 3050 Summit with Know Your Value. We'll speak with keynote guests, Gloria Steinem, Billie Jean King, and the First Lady of Ukraine, Olena Zelenska, to explore their accomplishments

and the path forward in the battle for women's equality. Watch this special presentation next Wednesday at 7 a.m. Eastern, only right here on Morning Joe. You're you're lonely, do let, do let, do let, chocolate, do let, do let, let's go slowly, discourage. We'll burn the pictures instead. When it's all over, we can barely discuss. By the way, you docs are good,

but if there's any angels in heaven, they're all nurses, male and female. You know why? You guys let us, you guys make us, allow us to live. Nurses make you one of it. When I was at Walter Reed all that time after a couple of craniotomies, I was lying there, and I had a nurse named Pearl Nelson, military. She'd come in and do things that I don't think you learn in medical school, nursing school. Is it over yet?

It's funny. My God, you imagine how much Joe Biden has been through. It's incredible. Now stop it. All right, that was funny, and that's all it is. All right, so we are raising it up this block. It's a great picture. So you need to zip it.

Yes. David Ignatius, please help me here in your latest piece for The Washington Post. You offer the White House a suggestion for cooling down rising tensions with China, writing in part, quote, There are different ways of showing presidential courage. One is getting on a train to visit Kiev in the middle of a war. Another is picking up the phone and calling Xi Jinping at a time of sharply deteriorating U.S.-China relations. Reaching out to the Chinese leader wouldn't win President Biden popularity points at home, and it would give Republicans a talking point they would undoubtedly exploit. But it's the right thing to do regardless of the politics. The current focus of tension involves the U.S. intelligence reporting that China might supply Russia with ammunition to

sustain its flagging war with Ukraine. Officials tell me that China hasn't sent the weapons yet. If it does, Biden will have to take sharp countermeasures. That's why Biden should make that call to Beijing now. You know, David, first of all, it doesn't really matter. Republicans are going to criticize Joe Biden if you wear what he doesn't care based on the color of his tie. So who gives a damn about what Republicans say? We're worried about America and what's best for America. And it seems to me if we could talk to the Soviet Union during the Cold War, we should be talking to China, especially with all of the range of issues

coming up. I want to talk about that. And also really quickly, a heartening Washington Post editorial on the first China, the bipartisan China committee that I'm sorry, I forget who who's running it right now, but we need to get his name, Mike Gallagher, Mike Gallagher. They're doing it right. They understand the threat coming from China and really seem to be doing it right. We can do two things at once. Right, David. So I think that puts it exactly right. Mike Gallagher is an outstanding legislator. He's leading a genuine bipartisan effort. The one thing that you find agreement among Republicans, Democrats and Washington about these days is is China, that China is becoming an increasing competitive threat. Got that. And as you say, I think that's that's a good thing.

I worry that in this climate where bashing China is just the best politics there is, that the president may be checked from doing what's necessary at a time when the U.S.-China relationship really is deteriorating in ways that are harmful to our country, also to China, but we worry about the United States. And I was struck when Biden made his now famous trip to Kiev about what he really represents in the public mind in the United States and around the world. He is this mature statesman-like person who has the courage to go to a place that's under fire and do the right thing, embrace a leader, President Zelensky, who is fighting with his country for things that we

believe. Doing the right thing in American politics often is, it's complicated. And for Biden to reach out to China and say, let's talk about our relationship, let's talk about what's going wrong, would be very unpopular with past Republicans, Republicans generally. He ought to do it anyway. And the reason is he is the steward of our country's interests at a time when this confrontation with China is beginning to be something that I think is going to be costly to us down the road. We worry so much about appearing weak towards China. We forget we have vastly more military power than all of our adversaries

combined. I mean, the level of American military strength, I travel around the world with our military. It's just overwhelming. It knocks you out. So I think we ought to realize how powerful we are. There was a hope that Secretary Blinken would be in Beijing around now talking with the Chinese leadership. The Chinese wanted that. That got blown up by this crazy balloon incident. But I think there's a way, starting with the president, to put this back on track. It'll be a good thing. That's the purpose of this article is basically let's do the simple, direct, right thing, because that's Joe Biden's brand. But I just couldn't agree more. And, you know, there are a lot of people, including some that we played in clips at the top of the show,

who said that they would prefer our military to be more like the Russian military. That tells you all you need to know about them, Jonathan Lemire. And David is exactly right. What do we have to worry about looking weak? We've got the strongest military relative to the rest of the world and at any time in the history of the world. We are strong. We're powerful. We're we're we're capable's in our best interest to try to do everything we can do to avert the next crisis. And by the way, the global economy depends on the United States and China figuring out like how to work together. Environmental issues, the same. Military, strategic conflicts, they're averted, better chance of being averted if we're talking to each other. Yeah. And let's recall, of course, that their conversation between the two governments ceased

for a while last year in the wake of Speaker Pelosi's visit to Taiwan, but restored when President Biden and President Xi Jinping met on the sidelines of the G20 in Bali. And there had been hope there for the return to a constructive dialogue. But recent events have certainly strained things again. The spy balloon, of course, these bellicose warnings from the U.S. telling the world, hey, we believe China might be considering sending lethal aid to Moscow. Though I spoke to a senior U.S. official last night who says they've seen no evidence that that's happened yet. But to the point of tension, just now the G20 foreign ministers meeting, Beijing signed on with Moscow, blasting the U.S. warnings to them.

But we also, to David's point, have some a little bit of news right now about the power of talking to each other. Secretary of State Blinken just had his first conversation with Foreign Minister Lavrov in months at the G20. Wow. A state just happened now. It's about a 10-minute conversation. A State Department official tells us that Blinken told Lavrov that the United States will, of course, continue to support Ukraine, urged Russia to return to the New START nuclear arms control treaty, and that said that Russia should release Paul Whelan, who, of course, is a former Marine who is still in custody there. So a little bit of dialogue here between Lavrov and Blinken. The first time that the Russian and U.S. governments

have had any kind of conversation on this level in quite some time. So unclear, Willie, if this will lead to further. Yeah, a rare face to face in the midst of the last year of war there. So we'll get some more readout on that as we go along through this morning, at least. But on the question of China and the United States, Richard Haass was here yesterday. He testified a couple of days ago in front of the House Intelligence Committee, and he was struck and said so on the air just by the level of antipathy toward China from Republicans and Democrats that there's just open hostility right now, which sort of flies in the face of what David is suggesting in his piece, that the better way to go about this is to pick up the phone and talk to Beijing. Well, and that's what I want to ask David,

because of these recent the recent news about Department of Energy, their estimation and FBI director Chris Wray about the possibility of a lab leak in Wuhan. That didn't just happen in a vacuum. The timing is interesting at this moment of increased hawkishness among some members of Congress. And I'm just curious, what are you hearing about the timing of those allegations come in public. Elise, this question of how COVID began has been an intelligence puzzle that has been continuous. I'm not sure this was deliberately timed for this particular moment. There are a lot of people working this kind of whole conspiracy area 24-7.

I wrote early on that there are questions about the original hypothesis that this was wet markets and people went in and bought animals that somehow had been contaminated by bats. I've never been sure that was right. And I think it is possible that there was a leak in one of the labs that's near Wuhan where this disease began. That doesn't mean, as so many Republicans have implied, that this was a deliberate leak of, and then they imply, of a man-made coronavirus that's been so deadly. But, you know, bashing China is good politics right now. And whenever you have a situation like that where people think, you know, it's like swing at the pinata, bam, let's do it again. It makes it difficult for the kind of diplomacy that our country needs to be effective in the world.

The whole purpose of our being so strong militarily is that it enables diplomacy. It doesn't it doesn't provide a substitute. It enables strong diplomacy. And that's why I think this is a good time for Biden to reach out, not because we're to deal with them because we were stronger and ultimately we won. And there's no doubt she is getting more autocratic. He's weakening himself and his country every year that goes by and he does it. And you're right. And as far as the lab leak, I'll say what I said a year ago and two years ago, we don't know. We just don't know if it was a lab leak. When Republicans say that China did it, though, as a bioweapon, I'll say what I said in 2021.

We don't know. But certainly there's no evidence that it was a bioweapon. It could be a lab leak. We've got the FBI and we've got the Energy Department with a low level of confidence. And then we have a lot of intel agencies who say, no, they didn't think it's that. I mean, David, how do we know unless we actually get some cooperation from China? And who knows, maybe we get a better chance of getting some cooperation with China and getting the answer if our president picks up the phone and talks to him. Maybe. I mean, I don't want to overstretch the benefits of the phone call. You know, when we have a Chinese scientist who defects from the Wuhan Institute of Virology, maybe we'll get a better sense of what happened. But I think that the point to remember here is that all of these intelligence agencies have

looked at what evidence there is. And the one thing they are really quite certain of is that this was not a man-made virus. This was not a deliberately leaked bioweapon. That theory, which is the scariest one, they've looked at it pretty conclusively rejected. Exactly how this happened, I think it's important for us eventually to know. But as with anything in intelligence, you need the person who actually knows who can help you reconstruct. David Ignatius, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. David was very patient. He is very elegant and erudite. You lifted us up. Yes. As usual.

It's good to see you, David. Thank you so much. All right. Coming out of your dad. Russia was once considered a leading suspect in a string of mysterious attacks on American diplomats and CIA officers overseas. We're going to tell you what intelligence officials are now saying about any link between foreign adversaries and the so-called Havana syndrome. investigators looking into child labor violations are calling in the Justice Department to figure out how children from Central America wound up working in dangerous jobs in slaughterhouses across the U.S. NBC News Homeland Security correspondent Julia Ainsley joins us with an exclusive update on that ongoing story. We're back in just a moment. Sun's up over the United States Capitol at 648 in the morning, and we have an update on a story we've been following for several days now. NBC News Homeland Security correspondent Julia Ainsley joins us now with exclusive new reporting on the Department of Homeland Security

widening now its investigation into migrant children found working dangerous jobs at slaughterhouses. Julia, good morning. You've been on this story from the very beginning. What do you have new today? Well, it's not an isolated incident, Willie. We knew that when these investigators from the Labor Department first went into this plant in Grand Island, Nebraska, they found almost two dozen children working in the dead of night, cleaning up blood and animal parts off the slaughterhouse floors. They found actually it was more than 100 children working for that one company. Now what we're learning is that the FBI, along with DHS, is investigating multiple companies who may have brought in children who were part of a smuggling ring. They're looking at smugglers

and whether or not they brought children from Central America, provided them with the IDs that ended up getting them these jobs and put them to work in slaughterhouses across America. The companies themselves aren't yet targets of this investigation. But look, how do children as young as 13 end up in these jobs? It's a very similar pattern in all of these companies. So now they're starting to ask questions. You know, that's the thing. So many people I've heard from following your reporting are so shocked by it over the last week or so and have said, how does the company not know, boy, that kid looks like he or she's 13 or 14 years old. Too young to be here. And the labor investigators who went inside this plant, which by the way,

they said was so loud, you can't call a name, you have to shine a flashlight to get somebody's attention. They said they could tell when they walked in. I mean, you could see from the first picture we showed, those are adults right there cleaning. But some of these are young children. We blurred their faces. They said it was obvious. Former employees, here you go. That's one of the employees.

You can tell just from the stature. We've also seen former employees say, look, someone would come forward with an ID saying not only they're 18, maybe 30, because they're getting these fraudulent documents. A lot of times American citizens' papers that they're coming forward giving their identification. You can tell just by looking at them they're not 18. But look, they passively verify. So the companies can still be compliant through that federal system, but it doesn't catch that this person is clearly not who they say they are on their ID. So what are the next steps then of this probe?

I mean, right now it's focusing on the smugglers. How are they tracing that path? And then could these companies at some point face legal jeopardy? They could. I mean, if they knowingly were part of this ring, I think right now what they're trying to figure out is, were these children all exploited by a similar network? We've seen in the past some of these investigators who've worked cases like this before say,

sometimes there'll be a fee for service where a smuggler will charge a family a fee to get them across the border, put them to work, and then that salary that child is making goes to pay that debt back. But what they are also investigating is whether or not any of the employees, not necessarily the companies at large, whether or not there were employees who knew about this, perhaps charging a fee for service, charging migrants more to get a job or garnishing their wages if they know they're illegal. That's also happened in the past. I just want to say it's time to think about breaking up big ag. I think this could unite the right and the left. This is atrocious. And there have been so many horrible labor incidents in the meatpacking industry over through COVID and then now this.

How did this come to light at first? Did teachers notice? Because some of these children, they were going to school during the day and then going at night and working these horrible jobs. You know, the heartbreaking thing is how long there were signs, but how long it took for anything to happen. So even going back to 2016, there were teachers who reported a little girl coming to school with burns on her arms. They thought it might be child abuse. It was from the chemicals, from cleaning these plants at night. Children were falling asleep in class. School officials told the Labor Department, it's common knowledge. These kids are coming from the plant

to the local middle school. This is in Nebraska. But it's still, they say, Labor Department says it takes the cooperation of the companies. Now, PSSI, the original company we featured, says they've been fully cooperative. But the Labor Department investigators I spoke to said

when they showed up with a warrant, it took them over an hour to be granted access and that they saw supervisors deleting things off the children's phone. So they are alleging that they interfered in this case. So it really is a matter of people noticing. And sometimes it's hard to notice what goes on in your own communities in the dead of night. This is just coming to light now, but is it fair to say this is probably still going on in meatpacking plants right now, this morning, somewhere in the United States? I think that's a very strong possibility. In fact, I asked the Labor Department, how do we know that these same children didn't walk down the street and get another job or end up in another

town? And they said, we don't know. We can't track the children. But that's why this investigation is now so wide. It's not just Nebraska. It's not just this one company. It's nationwide. But they're really looking at how these children end up in the meatpacking industry, an industry so few Americans want to take jobs in. I'm so glad you're shining a light on this. Excellent reporting on this story from NBC News Homeland Security correspondent Julia Ainsley. I know you'll stay on it. We'll check back with you. Thanks, Julia. Thank you.