Morning Joe - Morning Joe 3/24/25

Episode Date: March 24, 2025

AOC, Sanders rally in Denver draws over 30,000

What Trump is doing every single day in an unconstitutional way is trying to undermine the powers of Congress, undermine the First Amendment. You got a president who is suing ABC and CBS and met her in the Des Moines Register. He is threatening, he is threatening to investigate PBS and NPR. He loves media that fawns on him, that tells him how great he is. Well I got news for you Mr. President. What democracy is about is people discussing issues, debating issues, and disagreeing with you. And if you can't take the criticism, get the hell out of politics. Senator Bernie Sanders speaking to a massive crowd in Denver on Friday.

The latest stop on his fighting oligarchy tour with Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. We're going to have much more from that event. Incredible crowds. Also ahead, President Trump denies he signed the proclamation that his administration used to deport Venezuelan migrants without due process. We're going to have the outlandish clarification from the White House, a more defiant language from the administration directed at the judge. Plus, the latest on the war in Ukraine as

President Trump's special envoy to Russia seems to be repeating Kremlin propaganda ahead of these peace talks. And there will be no three-peat for Yukon in men's college basketball. We'll bring you a March Madness recap just ahead. Good morning. It's Monday. Welcome to Morning Joe. It's Monday, March 24th.

With us, we have the co-host of our fourth hour, Jonathan LaMere. He's a contributing writer at The Atlantic covering the White House, and managing editor at The Bulwark, Sam Stein, NBC News and MSNBC political analyst, former U.S. Senator Claire McCaskill, and NBC News national security editor David Rode is with us. Good to have you all on board this morning. So Joe, I'm going to launch into some of these rallies that we're seeing, but I'm just trying to maybe I don't remember, but right after election, not really before a midterm, to see such crowds and such vigor it's seems like

something different. Well I think it really is something different maybe maybe this happened in like I don't know 1973 after you know Richard Nixon won the landslide I don't know or 76 or some other time I don't I don't know, or 76 or some other time, I don't recall where you have members from the party that lost the presidential election going out and getting 15,000 people come out a couple months after a new president was sworn in. But we're talking about, you know, I thought the 15,000 number that we heard coming out of Arizona was pretty remarkable for this type of event, but also 30,000 people reportedly in Colorado coming out again. And it is a message of defiance.

It's also a message that I think, again, it's a message that unites a Democratic party, not around social issues that they've been fighting on as far as on what most Americans consider the extreme of social issues. But they're talking about, as James Carver would say, the economy is stupid. They're talking about, when they talk about oligarchy, they're talking about billionaires that are actually running the administration. Whether it's Commerce Department or DOJ that are running around talking about how social security, if a senior doesn't get their social security check, because, well, I don't know.

You have a social Administrator talking about shutting down the Social Security Administration because he's upset at a judge's ruling, just trying to get some information on Doge. That somehow, that senior citizen who depends on Social Security for their livelihood is somehow a scammer or a fraudster. You also have, of course, the guy running Doge, who's just come flat out and said that Social Security was like the biggest Ponzi scheme ever.

So we have all that going on. Jonathan Amir, we also had something else going on this weekend. Not that I took note, but let me ask you, what does Florida, Alabama, Kentucky, Ole Miss, Arkansas, and Auburn have in common? John, I'm new to this college basketball thing. What do they have in common? These are, it's a new era in college basketball. These are SEC schools, of course, traditionally football powerhouse

school, and they're all going to Sweet 16 what we should note though it's it extends beyond the SEC this all-power for football conferences are represented in the sweet 16 no Cinderella's no real Cinderella's no small schools no small conferences this time that said really good weekend of basketball yeah there were complaints that weren't as many buzzer beaters as other years, although. My wife of Maryland grad we were locked in on that game yesterday and they wanted the buzzer with an extraordinary shot. And we had some terrific games yesterday, but yeah Joe how are you

feeling right now with your conference and your crimson tide very much alive heading into the sweet 16. We know one of my favorite stories of Larry Bird stories had to do when when Larry Bird walked into the locker room, the All-Star game with probably the greatest collection of NBA stars ever. He walks in, he goes, you're all playing for second place and walks back out. As much as I love the SEC, as much as I would love to see Alabama move forward and win it all, that would be so exciting. move forward and win it all. That would be so exciting.

I'm kind of feeling like playing the role of Larry Bird this March is Duke. I don't know how anybody beats Duke. You know, I Florida is a strong, strong team, but man, you can't I mean, you can't push them to the edge. You kind of was had most of that most of that game yesterday. So, yeah, going to going to be into what about you. Yeah, I mean the best part as you know, I'm Larry bird is venerated in my household the best part about that is he told

everyone you're playing for second and then didn't take his warm-up jacket off as he proceeded to then win. Actually the 3 point contest he was the best. But you're right look Alabama Auburn Florida. These are I see schools that one that's the most important but they were all pushed they all had tough games Duke has not been Duke has breezed through the first couple around so yeah they didn't play anybody that tough but now it will get harder they start with the Arizona's next

but Cooper flag you know who is clearly healthy after suffering an injury in the conference tournament, they're the biggest team. They're probably the best team, too. They're the favorites. Yeah, by the way, in news that only 14 of us really are aware of but are very excited about Campbell going to be playing opening day for the Red Sox. Very excited. Going to be on the roster. Jack Scarborough now counting down the hours to opening day. I know Claire McCaskill is doing the same. We will get to her to hear the latest great news about the Cardinals in a minute. I do want to very quickly go over, just to show you really quickly, front pages of the papers today.

You've got the New York Times. The Times has a picture of the Pope on the front page. Also talking about how disturbing it is that law firms that may not agree with the president being targeted. David Rhodes here to talk about that. Also, Wall Street Journal editorial page at the top, gelling of Erdogan rival spurs, protests, and Turkey. It really does. Also, a very interesting headline right here. We also are seeing in the Financial Times this morning too that people are starting to park their money outside of U.S. stocks or go long time

fans of U.S. stocks are parking their money elsewhere. This is on the front page of the Financial Times Trump terror of Trimmers shatter Wall Street's faith in American exceptionalism. It's something that we're talking about on Friday. And it really is remarkable what a couple of months difference makes. I know you, Mika, you saw when I came back from from Britain, came back from Europe. And I was talking about how they were in all of our economy in December and just saying, my God, there's no way we can compete with you.

You have all the animal spirits. We've lost all the animal spirits. It's just the opposite now. We were speaking yesterday to a man who has an American who has business in the U.S. but also in Germany. He's just talking about the fact that in Germany, things have been so flat, but now they're waking up to history and understanding the United States doesn't seem to want to be there to help them out. So we'll be covering those stories and an awful lot more, but let's get and also, oh my God, Canada's prime minister is called a snap election. Yeah, we got Mike Myers stars and I one of the one of the whether you're conservative

or a liberal, you got to look at this and go, this is one of the best political commercials as far as not only Mike Myers being in it, but the performance from the prime minister. This guy looks like a natural. It's going to be a fascinating battle in that snap election that's going to be coming up very soon. Yeah. The Canadian clapback is something to be watching, and we'll have that commercial in just a bit.

But let's get back to that rally in Denver, where independent Senator Bernie Sanders and Democratic congressman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez drew a reported crowd of over 34,000 people. The Colorado stop is the latest in the duo's fighting oligarchy tour, as they attempt to inspire Democrats ahead of next year's midterms. Because what many people want to smear as radical, I believe, is common sense. I believe in the wealthiest nation in the history of the world, when a person gets sick, they shouldn't go bankrupt. Common sense.

I believe that a minimum wage should cover the minimum cost to live. Common sense. I believe that homes are not slot machines for investors and big banks to extort working families out of every last dollar that they have. Fox News and the right wing will have you believe that these American values are something out of the communist manifesto. That we believe these things because we went to some fancy school and read them in a book somewhere. But I can tell you,

I don't believe in healthcare, labor, and human dignity because I'm an extremist. I believe these things because I was a waitress. Because I scrubbed toilets with my mom to afford school. Because I've worked double shifts to keep the lights on. Because I did lose my dad as a kid and had to see my mom open the hospital bills a few days later. And I don't want us to live like this anymore. We can organize at the grassroots level.

We can become strong trade unionists. We can run for school board or president of the United States. We're not going to let the billionaire class have all of the power. So the message today is yes, here in Colorado, in Vermont, in New York, all over this country, hey Mr. Trump, people fought and died to create a democratic society, you're not gonna take it away from us. So brothers and sisters, this is a difficult moment in American history,

but it's not the first difficult moment we have had. We've gone through some rough periods in the past as well. But what I believe from the bottom of my heart, if we stand together, if we don't let them to divide us up, if we are smart, if we're willing to go outside of our comfort zones, there is nothing, nothing that can stop us. Let us go forward together. Thank you. Okay.

Claire McCaskill, I think it's fair to say these two whippersnappers, no, Bernie Sanders has been at this for quite a while, but they're on to something. What's the potential that this obvious energy that we're seeing has for Democrats? Well, I think the key thing that Bernie said at the end of his remarks is staying united. I have been a little weirded out at how much noise there has been created over Schumer making a decision that the Democrats shutting down the government was not a good idea. And this kind of infighting about who the leadership

should be and so forth is not helpful. I think they're right that there's some common sense things here that if the Democrats stay focused in terms of their message, the common sense stuff, that taking a meat ax to programs that Americans rely on, accusing everyone of being a fraudster that gets Social Security, cutting many programs for veterans.

These are the kinds of things that we will not only grab all those people that are showing up at these rallies, but we'll grab that middle also. And it's about staying united and disciplined about a message. And obviously, there's a lot of energy on the ground right now. It is very reminiscent, in my opinion, of what we saw going on around the country when

Barack Obama got elected, but on the opposite end of the spectrum. And so let's hope we get the same result in the midterms where we would, if history is any predictor, we would win dozens and dozens of House seats. Well, you know, Sam, that is obviously a long way away. I've got to say the contrast. When I first got into politics, a really smart guy told me, this is a game of contrasts.

Campaigns are all about contrasts. How do you contrast yourself with your opponents? And I've just got to say, regardless of how anybody may feel about Doge or feel about some of these other issues, the contrasts are extraordinary. You have veterans being fired from the federal workforce by the world's richest man in the world who is literally going around wielding a chainsaw. You have the VA being slashed and burned as far as cuts go there, you have veterans' health care benefits being put at risk in a very just shocking way.

And that's happening at a time where we still have a lot of vets that are struggling from mental health challenges coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan. You have the world's richest man calling Social Security a Ponzi scheme. You have another billionaire that's running the Commerce Department that says if a senior citizen in America who doesn't get a Social Security check because you have the administrator of the Social Security Administration saying he may shut down the Social Security Administration offices because he didn't like a judge's order. You've got that billionaire actually saying, if a senior citizen doesn't get their check, that keeps the power on in their house, that allows them to pay their rent,

that allows them to pay for their medicine, that they're fraudsters. And Sam, Alex said we ought to just play that clip. Let me play the clip and then we'll get to you on the other side of it. Play the clip real quick. Let's say Social Security didn't send out their checks this month.

My mother-in-law, who's 94, she wouldn't call and complain. She just wouldn't. She thinks something got messed up and she'll get it next month. A fraudster always makes the loudest noise, screaming, yelling, and complaining. And all the guys who did PayPal, like Elon knows this by heart,

right? Anybody who's been in the payment system and the process system knows the easiest way to find the fraudster is to stop payments and listen. Because whoever screams is the one stealing. I mean, his mother wouldn't complain because she's got a billionaire for a son. Hey son, my $364 income in this past month, because she said, by the way, he's running the commerce department. And you've got the world's richest man on the planet that's going around, again, firing vets, slashing VA healthcare, and saying that Social Security is a Ponzi scheme. You know, I'm usually skeptical when people say that campaign ads write themselves.

But my God, as I said before, if the Democrats can't do something with this, they should get into the used car selling business with this, they should get into the used car selling business. Yeah, they should disband. If you can't make anything out of this, you should just give up. You should go to France. Yeah, definitely. I honestly, when I saw it, I had to do a double take and I rerouted it because I couldn't believe he said it. You just, I've never heard such a disorienting statement politically in what?

The callousness, Sam. 17, 18 years. It's crazy. I mean, the callousness. Yeah. And I think you're getting at something really important here, and I think this is why Bernie's reaching people. Let's just take two things Howard Lutnick said over the past week.

One was that statement in which he said his mother wouldn't complain. And obviously that sounds crazy coming from someone who's a billionaire. But then the other thing he did is he went on TV and he said he encouraged people to buy Tesla stock. And I think that's the contrast really that Bernie and AOC and others are getting at, which is you're telling poor people not to complain about cuts to Social Security. At the same time, you're turning around and trying to pump up the stock for the richest man in the world who happens to be a Trump advisor.

And that's oligarchy. That is oligarchy. And that's why 34,000 people are coming out to Denver. Now, I will say the other reason that 34,000 people are coming out to Denver is this. And this is where the Democrats need to step it up, frankly. Remember back in 2017, the first day or the second day of the Trump administration was the Women's March. And from there on out, there were just constant outlets for people to channel their anger and frustration and rage with the Trump administration.

And you saw a lot of protestation. This time around, there has not been that. You've seen some Tesla protests and you've seen Bernie and AOC do their tour. But the Democratic Party really has not provided channels for people to express their frustration and anger. And I think if they want to capitalize on this moment, as much as it's about ideology, I don't think it's that much about ideology, it's about figuring out avenues for voters to come into the party.

And that's where Schumer may have made a strategically smart decision to keep the government open or not, but he does, going forward, tactically need to figure out how to get all that anger and activism channeled behind Democrats. And AOC and Bernie have done it, but I haven't seen others in the party figure it out. Yeah, and that's certainly right, that there's this despair and there's this thought that Democrats are too depressed to engage That's not true. Some are yes, but others are angry into Sam's point want to find these outlets We should also note I think representative Acosta Cortez is really smart framing there of common sense adopting the Trump language

That's what he started saying at the end of the campaign and during the transition in these early months of his term To say common sense and she's saying, no, no, not so fast. And Mika, on the Howard-Lutnick part, we're seeing, I'm told by those in the Trump orbit that he and Musk both right now are drawing the ire of some close to the president who are saying he's just creating more negative headlines. With that tone deaf comment there, Social Security is something that at least publicly Trump has said we will not touch, even though others have suggested they might, and they think this sort of thing not helpful. A little bit of thin ice right now.

Democrats, Joe, might be getting their message back. Well, I mean, the message has always been there. They've gotten distracted when they've gone off the economy and taken positions that 85 percent of Americans have disagreed with or been afraid of their own shadow and haven't fought back on the most basic things, the stupidest things that they should have fought back on. I want to circle back though on AOC. And Claire, you know, Democrats over the past,

let's say four years, not you for God's sake, because you were just the opposite, but Democrats at times, some of their national leaders were afraid to confront people who disagreed with them. We certainly saw that throughout the presidential campaign. We see Democrats are starting to do that. But right after the election, I was really impressed by the fact that AOC was looking for people in her district who voted for both of her and voted for Donald Trump. And she would say, I'm fascinated. Tell me why you did that.

What connects the two of us because we seem to be completely opposite. And when you start hearing her going out there talking the way she's talking, it is a remarkable thing when politics. And I'm not saying she hasn't done this in the past, but it's remarkable when politicians like you get out, knock on doors, talk to people who disagree with you. And that sharpens your message.

And I'm hearing it in AOC's message right now, which is, I believe in dignity for you. I believe that you ought to be able to afford your home. I believe that you ought to be able to afford basic health care. I believe you deserve working wages for the hard job. And she goes, and that doesn't make me a socialist. I'm not a Marxist because of that. I'm saying that because I was a waitress. And then she goes to common sense.

And boom, that connects with everybody. Yeah, and by the way, one of Trump's lawyers, I forget how you say her name, Alina Hababa, she went on TV and basically made fun of AOC for having been a bartender. And AOC turned it around very quickly and said, you know, she's not criticizing me, she's criticizing you. She's looking down at you. All of you Americans who are working an extra shift, everyone who is waiting

tables and serving beer at a bar, trying to find a way to the American dream. Oh, listen, this is a great communicator. She has a good, really good communicator and she's smart. And one thing she's done that I don't think she has trumpeted, but I sure noticed, is she has not been out there voting by herself against most Democrats. She has not been. She really, I hate to use the dreaded word moderated, because I know that's not what she would want me to say.

But she has. She has been somebody who's been willing to play on a team, not on a squad, but on a team. And clearly right now, she understands where this anger is coming from, and she understands that Donald Trump is turning his back on his base in favor of his billionaire bros. It's what needs to be done, and she's doing it. So we have David Rode patiently standing by here. We have a lot to talk about coming up on the Justice Department and also deportations and imprisonment with the parent no-due process.

Also ahead on Morning Joe, an advisor for President Trump is facing new criticism for appearing to repeat Russian talking points when it comes to the war in Ukraine. We'll show you what he said. Plus one of our guests this morning argues Doge just might usher in a new era of big government. We'll talk about that straight ahead on Morning Joe. We're back in 90 seconds. I mean the government's one big permit scheme, if you ask me. Yeah, well, you can tell them better than anybody. Social security is the biggest Ponzi scheme of all time.

Well, explain that. So people pay into social security, and the money goes out of social security immediately. But the obligation for Social Security is your entire retirement career. So you're paying, like if you look at the future obligations of Social Security, it far exceeds the tax revenue. the tax revenue.

Mr. Prime Minister, Mike Myers, what are you doing here? I just thought I'd come up and check on things. You live in the States? Yeah, but I'll always be Canadian. But you live in the States.

Yeah. So do you remember Mr. Dress Up? The children's show on CBC? What were the names of Mr. Dress Up's two puppet friends? Casey and Finnegan? Bud the Spud? Howie? Meeker?

Capitalist Saskatchewan? Regina? Tragically? Pip? You're a defenseman defending a two-on-one. What do you do? Take away the pass, obviously. What are the two seasons in Toronto?

Winter and construction. Wow. You really are Canadian. Yeah. But let me ask you, Mr. Prime Minister, will there always be a Canada? There will always be a Canada. Alright. Elbows up. Elbows up. Buzzer. Wow.

Well, it's Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney and comedian Mike Meyer taking a subtle jab at President Trump's comments about making Canada the 51st state. Carney's now calling for a general election to be held on April the 28th. Claire McCaskill, I've seen a lot of politicians. I must say he kind of snuck up on me. We of course all know Christia Freeland who, along with Trudeau, helped run that government. But he popped up in a couple of feeds this weekend and at one point I thought I was listening to a sort of a Scott Galloway consultant. He was brilliant and I said, who is this guy?

And I said, oh wait, he's Canada's prime minister. He certainly seems to have risen to the moment. And I'm saying this, people need to look at this guy. He is a great political talent. And he just says, the other guy, he's just going around talking about his opponent and the conservative party. He's just kind of blabbering and he'll give you like bumper sticker comments. He has no idea how the economy works and how we need to fight back on tariffs. He's very, he's very talented guy.

Yeah. Listen, I think one of the things that really matters here is remembering why the Liberal Party in Canada is succeeding right now. And it's a very simple one word answer, Trump. Trump has in fact allowed that party to come back from, I think it was a 20 point deficit. So at one point for this election, Trudeau was really struggling with his approval rating.

Even after he stepped down, the more progressive alternative to the Conservative Party in Canada was still struggling. Then Trump came along. And let's remember what Trump is threatening to do. Trump is threatening to do what Russia did to Ukraine because Canada clearly doesn't want to be a 51st state. So the only way Canada becomes a 51st state is if we go to war with

them, which America will not stand for. America doesn't want us fighting Canada. So he is creating not just in Canada, but across the globe, such an anti-Trump sentiment among so many people that the parties that more reflect the Democratic Party values across the globe are enjoying a big bump because of Trump. And, you know, maybe it's the only thing he's done right since he took office, and that is he's enabled some of these parties that were struggling to once again raise the flag and in Canada with elbows up.

Yep, elbows up. All right. Our other big story this morning. The White House is clarifying President Trump's claim that he did not sign the Alien Enemies Act Proclamation, which his administration used to deport hundreds of migrants without due process. They were shackled, shaved, and put on planes and sent to a prison in El Salvador. The president made the comment Friday evening while talking to reporters on the South Lawn. It doesn't sound like this judge, who the DOJ is arguing with today about the deportation place, he wants to know why the proclamation was signed in the dark, his words, and why

people were rushed onto planes. Because we want to get criminals out of our country, number one, and I don't know when it was signed because I didn't sign it. Other people handled it. But Marco Rubio has done a great job and he wanted them out. And we go along with that. We want to get criminals out of our country. The White House released a statement on Saturday on Trump's comments saying the president,

quote, was obviously referring to the original Alien Enemies Act that was signed back in 1798. President Trump's signature is on the digital image of the proclamation that's posted online with the federal register. It's not clear if he signed it or if the document was signed using auto pen. A method, the DOJ says, is a legal way to sign official presidential documents. Trump has criticized President Biden for using AutoPen, but Trump himself has used it as well.

Meanwhile, border czar Tom Homan doubled down on his controversial decision that he, quote, doesn't care what judges think. In an interview yesterday take a listen. I don't care what that judges think as far as this case we're going to continue to arrest public safety threats and national security threats we're going to continue to deport them from the United States. I understand this case is in litigation through the Alien Enemies Act and will abide by the court order as litigated but my quote quote was, despite what he thinks, we're going to keep targeting the worst of

the worst, which we've been doing since day one, and deporting from the United States to the various laws on the books. So, David, let's get to your take on this. The administration seems to want to have it both ways. They keep insisting publicly, hey, we're adhering to court orders. We're not violating them, at least not yet. But they keep criticizing the judges and seem to be foreshadowing that, hey, at some point we might. So talk to us about what legal authority is being used right now, especially with suddenly the Alien Enemies Act being uncertain.

That's what's so frankly bizarre about that exchange. President Trump is now saying he didn't sign this executive order, so how are they deporting these people? And it's this pattern sort of the president trying to have it both ways. I think more concerning is what Tom Homan is saying. We are going to deport people without them seeing judges. And it's this theme of the concentration of power that this administration, this White House is going to deport people. It's going to do whatever it wants, and there should be no

branch, no other branch of government that challenges them doing that. So if he did not sign that executive order, then those people bluntly, under American law, I would assume should come back. And we still don't know many of those who those people are or what charges, if any, there have been. So on this subject, President Trump's longtime advisor and White House Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller has also attacked the federal judge who ordered an injunction on Trump's deportation under the Alien Enemies Act. The judge's order was patently unlawful. Beyond unlawful, it was an outrageous assault on the Constitution, an outrageous assault

on the sovereignty of the nation, and on democracy itself. The idea that a single district court judge has the authority to direct as though they were the president the movement of airplanes around the globe is, again, it is the most outrageous thing I have seen from a district court judge in my lifetime but frankly going back multiple lifetimes. But let's be clear it wasn't that long ago that Miller was cheering on judges who ruled against the government during the Biden administration. In fact during the first months of Biden's presidency Miller started an organization called America First Legal to fund challenges in federal court against the Biden administration. In May of 2021, a federal judge in North Texas granted AFL's clients a

preliminary injunction to prevent COVID relief funds from going to women and minority business owners. Miller called his groups win a quote, clear repudiation of illegal and discriminatory conduct. There's more in July of 2021 after the AFL won an injunction on Department of Agriculture spending. Miller said it sends a powerful message. In August of 2021, when AFL secured an injunction from a judge against one of Biden's executive actions on immigration, Miller said this, this injunction is a critical first step towards ending Biden's lawsuit assault on our people. We must now fight to make those injunctions permanent.

President Trump, meanwhile, continues to attack the judiciary for stopping some of his executive actions. On Friday, he took to Truss Social posting, no district court judge or any judge can assume the duties of the president of the United States. Only crime and chaos would result. And yet, as recently as December of last year, Trump applauded an order from a district court judge in Texas who blocked the Biden's administration's sale of border wall materials, calling it a major and crucial win for the country. Earlier this month, Trump continued to heap praise on Judge Eileen Cannon, who repeatedly stepped in to effectively end the Biden Justice Department's prosecution against him for allegedly hoarding nuclear secrets. So so Joe certainly rank hypocrisy here from Stephen

Miller who formed a whole organization to applaud the work of federal judges almost all of them from Texas mind you and the president Trump himself who you know has now though when the judge he disagrees with takes the truth social and seemingly endorses calls for impeachment. Well, and of course, the president has praised judges who agree with him and said the pressure never criticize judges should be illegal, I think he said. And then the next week he will criticize judges and everybody else will call him

Marxist or this or that or the other. For doing, as you pointed out, the same thing they were cheering district court judges, mainly in the state of Texas, for doing during the Biden and the Obama administrations. You know, Sam Stein, that's what's so crazy here. I mean, I can certainly understand any administration being upset that a single federal district court judge could stop an executive order, could stop a policy that they were pursuing. But when I say I can understand why, because didn't we hear that from Barack Obama all the time? How can a single federal court judge in Texas stop an executive order from the president

of the United States? We heard it from Joe Biden. We certainly heard it from Donald Trump. And so again, second verse, same as first. I mean, this has been going on for some time. If you want to be critical, and many people have been critical of the idea that a single federal district court judge can stop national action, well, you certainly can do that. It seems to me that Barack Obama was the first to really do this because that's where we started to see it happening more and more and more when, you know, there would be forum shopping, people would take a policy to a federal district court judge,

a conservative judge in Texas, and he or she would stop the law from being applied across the nation until it was appealed. Yeah, this has been going on for some time. Now, the Trump people will say, well, look at the stats. We've had way more temporary restraining orders issued against us than Barack Obama or Joe Biden. And I find that a little bit ironic because maybe the issue is they're doing way more

things that require temporary restraining orders than the other presidents, right? I mean, we've seen them push the envelopes on a whole host of fronts, not just immigration. We've seen it across the board with the Doge stuff, with transgender troops, things like that. So yes, there have been more TROs issued against the Trump administration, but that might be because of the acts of the Trump administration. And look, I think in the broad scope here, what we're seeing is a real coming of conflict between the judiciary and the executive branch.

Some of the rhetoric that the Trump administration has used attacking judges is stuff we have not seen before, frankly. Now in the courts, when the lawyers are arguing, they are insistent that they're not going to violate any court order, that they're very respectful. But you can see that the judges themselves are getting incredibly frustrated by the evasiveness of some of the arguments that they're making and and we're only two months in and at some point yeah people are getting really worried that you will see the administration just say you know what we are going to defy this corridor and then we are really in a

constitutional crisis. Well you know we actually saw the frustration coming from the courts this past weekend as I, is just a remarkable moment when you actually had the Trump administration's acting Social Security administrator saying he was going to shut down the entire department. All right, something is something to that effect because he didn't like a ruling regarding Doge and the judge wrote a letter the next day saying what you're telling the American people is not correct. This only impacts Doge. And the judge wrote a letter the next day saying, what you're telling the American people is not correct. This only impacts Doge. It doesn't impact the Social Security Administration. So, again, a big question will mark over why anybody would say they're going to shut down the entire Social Security Administration and punish just millions of senior citizens because they didn't like a judge's ruling.

But David Rode, you know, the Wall Street Journal editorial page said last week is something along the lines of, if the Trump administration doesn't want federal judges to enjoin them and to stop their actions legally, then adhere to the law. I actually, it's not actually that simple. I mean, the Trump administration is not as an op-ed writer said,

it's not just throwing spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks. This is a calculated effort because they believe that Article II powers are far more expansive than have been practiced over the past several decades since Watergate. And so this was their plan. We're going to challenge, and they certainly have that legal right to challenge existing understandings of how powerful the presidency is. But when they do that, obviously, if that's their project, this is like a project 2025 thing, and they're trying to do what nobody's done before, or at least since Nixon and Watergate, then they're going to have

federal judges pushing back. They'll succeed in some areas, they won't succeed in others. But I mean that certainly explains why there are more injunctions filed against them right now because they're pushing the boundaries every day to see how expansive they can make the president's power. Yeah you're right it goes back to Watergate. And again, the lesson of Watergate, that when there's a concentration of power in the White House and the Oval Office, you'll have abuses.

And there's been a project, this is Project 2025, to restore all that. There was a view that the War Powers Act weakened the presidency, that the creation of an independent Justice Department that would just rule on the facts, not on political concerns, was a weakening of the presidency. That the president couldn't control the spending of money. The Empowerment Act was passed, so Congress stopped that part.

Inspectors General were created as an independent check as a way to look for fraud, but it's not the president going after his enemies. And they are trying to reverse all that. I said it earlier. It's a concentration of power. Some conservatives talked about it for decades, but Donald Trump is taking it to new heights. And I'm, as a journalist, I want to see transparency and a dispersal of power between three branches of government.

It helps us in our reporting, but it's also American democracy. So speaking of, can you update us on the latest efforts to go after lawyers and law firms that have taken up cases that perhaps the president or his DOJ consider frivolous? So on Saturday, the president issued a memorandum called Preventing Abuses of the Legal System and the Federal Court. And this was President Trump saying that his administration, the attorney general and the federal court. And this was President Trump saying that his administration, the attorney general and the secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, could decide on their own if legal cases filed by certain lawyers or law firms were frivolous.

And then what's extraordinary here was that they could then enact sanctions against the law firm. And one of the key things that came out over the weekend was there was this criticism of a law firm that sort of settled with Trump. Paul Weiss, they were one of these law things that came out over the weekend was there was this criticism of a law firm that sort of settled with Trump, Paul Weiss. They were one of these law firms that were targeted. And it wasn't just that the Trump administration talking about taking away Paul Weiss' federal contracts. They said that any company that continued to work with Paul Weiss would have its

federal contracts taken away. And the head of that law firm said that he settled with the White House because they were gonna be forced out of business. Steve Bannon said last week, the goal is to bankrupt law firms that challenge this administration. No president has done this.

Ronald Reagan didn't do this. George H.W. Bush, George Bush didn't do this. And so it's just unprecedented and alarming to a lot of lawyers and legal experts. Joe. And we've already had, though, Jonathan O'Meara, have we not? We've already had a federal district court judge rule against what was being done against Perkins-Coy, and she said it's chilling, extraordinarily chilling. I think she said he chills up her spine. He's chilling the very sector of

society that stands between Trump and tyranny, the lawyer said. Lawyers fire lawsuits and they get rulings that adjudicate what the administration has done is constitutional or not, and that's our system of government. And so that's what the lawyer said. But actually the federal judge, Beryl Howell, how old said that this was deeply unconstitutional. You, it'll get appealed. And I find it hard to believe that any court of appeals would not agree with district court judge. And certainly the Supreme Court is not going to say that any president, Democrat or Republican,

is going to be able to punish people for, punish lawyers and punish law firms for representing clients. I mean, how many times have we heard the entire system, American legal judicial system is based on everybody being able to get representation. You've heard it time and time again from people who've defended unpopular criminal defendants. They have a constitutional right to be defended no matter who they are or who they represent. And so, I mean, this is something obviously that that will be reversed ultimately Paul Weiss made their decisions

for their own purposes, but the courts will ultimately be on their side and American edition set by John Adams all the way back in the days the revolutionary war but yet Joe the chilling effect is already there even if indeed a judge does step in a court to step in the message has been sent by this White House if you defy us, we're gonna make your life miserable. Now, the law firm like this, clients of that law firm now may think twice, do we really wanna work with them?

Maybe we'll go somewhere else now, somewhere less controversial. So there could be a real issue for that law firm. There could be a chilling effect elsewhere in the legal community. And Mika, we talked about this on Friday as well, but this is one of the top examples just about, frankly, how much more clever the Trump administration is being this time around in terms of using the levers of government, the levers of power, creative ways to get that retribution, to get that revenge and to defy others, to challenge them.

So NBC News Senior Executive Editor for National Security, David Rode, thank you very much. We'll see you again soon. And coming up, we're going to take a look back at the life and legacy of heavyweight boxing legend, George Foreman. Morning Joe, we'll be right back. 53 past the hour time now for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. The Wall Street Journal is looking into how China could move to pressure Taiwan into submission with a full-scale blockade.

It's seen as one of President Xi Jinping's most powerful military options. An assault could begin with air attacks on Taiwan's infrastructure, military facilities, ports, and energy terminals. Cargo ships could try to cut through critical fiber optic cables under the sea, while submarines install mines to ward off ships. Xi has ordered the Chinese military to rapidly modernize by 2027. According to the journal, the more that China prepares, the greater the risk that Beijing decides to shift without notice from drills to war. Pope Francis is back at the Vatican this morning after more than five weeks in the hospital,

Pope Francis is back at the Vatican this morning after more than five weeks in the hospital fighting double pneumonia. The 88-year-old pontiff made a brief public appearance, smiling and waving from his hospital window before being discharged. He thanked the crowd outside and gave a short blessing. The Pope's medical team says his condition has stabilized and he will focus on rest and recovery for the next two months. And crews in North Carolina are struggling to fight a pair of massive wildfires in the western part of the state. Mandatory evacuations are in place for parts of Polk County. The fires are each more than

2,000 acres and totally uncontained. The flames have been fueled by weeks of