Morning Joe - Morning Joe 4/10/23

Episode Date: April 10, 2023

The political quicksand quickens for Republicans over abortion

Hear me now, for soon I will leave you and join my Father in Heaven. We cannot lose you, Jesus. We will protect you. They will never find you, Jesus. Alas, one of you will betray me. No, not I. What? It is foretold, and though I have committed no crime, I will be arrested, tried, and found guilty.

Sound familiar? Thank you so much. A famous, wonderful man arrested for no reason at all. If you haven't put it together, folks, I'm comparing myself to Jesus again. And what better time than on his birthday, Easter? Wow. Wow. Oh, my Lord. Too close to reality, actually. Saturday Night Live's James Austin Johnson with a pretty spot on impersonation of Donald Trump and interrupting the Last Supper. Nearly a week after Trump's historic arraignment,

new polling shows more Americans agree with the charges. Up 5% this week. Plus, his former attorney general is predicting another indictment for the former president. We'll get into all of that straight ahead. We're also going to dig into the competing rulings from federal judges on a commonly used drug for medical abortions, the impact on women's health care and the political impact on the Republican Party. And by the way, Mika, you know, let's just say it's not good based on conversations we've had with friends and others that have voted for Donald Trump have been Republican. This is really it's more bad political news, obviously, for women's rights, but especially for Republicans. I have got to say we I was really taken and I've been taken over the last week, especially of people who have been Trump supporters for a long time, who you start talking, they're exhausted, they're ready to move on. There's some stories in the paper about this.

But then you bring up abortion for those who may not be completely exhausted with him. They bring up abortion. And now the pill, those rulings coming this weekend. My gosh, it's really Wisconsin and Tennessee. Now, this I can't overstate just politically, regardless of whether you're pro-life or pro-choice, I can't overstate how bad this is for the Republican Party politically. And it's not just women, it's men as well on this issue and pro-life women saying, wait a minute,

this is ridiculous. This is, I am now seeing in real time women's health being impacted by the inability to have access to abortion or anything like it. It goes back to, and we talk about it all the time. I remember when John Heilman and Mark Halperin had in 2016 that Bloomberg focus group and you had a group of working class Americans in the Midwest who who when they talked about Donald Trump, they said he's one of us. And that was the first time. And it was jarring and shocking that this billionaire celebrity was, quote, one of them.

We've seen that way. And I go back, keep going back to what at least Jordan's focus group this year, where we had the Trump supporter, the conspiracy theorist. You go down one issue after another. And he was all in, all in on the stolen elections, all in on conspiracy theories. And then Lee said, well, what about abortion? What about Roe v. Wade being overturned? And he immediately said, that's none of my business. The Georgia voter. The Georgia voter.

I didn't know if that was a one off or not. It was not a one off. It's not a one off. It's all over America. And it's people that have been Republicans their entire life that have voted for Donald Trump, who are really and again, we're going to also be talking about how this used to be a 50-50 issue. Politico reporting now it's Republican quicksand. That quicksand quickened even more this past weekend. Absolutely. This is the last thing that Republicans wanted to happen that are actually looking toward next year's elections

and whether they're going to be able to win a national election. Also had the latest from Tennessee on the efforts to reappoint the two Democratic lawmakers who were expelled from the Republican controlled statehouse. We'll also get a live report from Beijing as China ramps up military drills in response to House Speaker Kevin McCarthy's bipartisan meeting with Taiwan's president. With us, we have the host of MSNBC's Politics Nation and president of the National Action Network, Reverend Al Sharpton, member of The New York Times editorial board. Mara Gay is with us this morning. Also with us, founder of the conservative website The Bulwark and author of How the Right Lost Its Mind, Charlie Sykes. And Rogers chair and the American presidency at Vanderbilt University, John Meacham. Also with us, former White House director of communications to President Obama, Jen Palmieri.

She's co-host of Showtime's The Circus. Great group this morning. And we'll start off with that. Two competing rulings by federal judges could see the Supreme Court take up another abortion case. On Friday, a judge in Texas overturned FDA approval for the most commonly used abortion pill, while a judge in Washington state protected that same drug. NBC News correspondent, White House correspondent, Ali Raffa, has the latest. Battle lines drawn. I'm very worried about the women who need this medication. We applaud the judge's action to issue a stay on the chemical abortion drug Mifepristone. After the most consequential abortion ruling since the reversal of Roe v. Wade,

a Texas federal judge suspending FDA approval of the most commonly used abortion pill, giving the federal government seven days to appeal before the ruling goes into effect. We intend to do everything to make sure it's available to them, not just in a week, but moving forward, period. Health and Human Services Secretary Javier Becerra vowing the Biden administration is considering all legal options. Well, we've already filed an appeal of this court's ruling. The issue will likely be decided by the Supreme Court after a federal judge in Washington state ruled to protect the drug in more than a dozen states. One Republican lawmaker threatening cuts to FDA funding if the White House fights the Texas ruling. It may become a point where House Republicans on

the appropriation side have to defund FDA programs that don't make sense. Some health care providers are now stockpiling the pill, fearing an all out ban, while some Democrats urge the Biden administration to go even further. I believe that the Biden administration should ignore this ruling. It is up to the Biden administration to enforce, to choose whether or not to enforce such a ruling. HHS Secretary Becerra not committing to that specific option. Every option is on the table. NBC's Ali Rafa with that report. And let's just break this down. A new piece in Politico notes how abortion was, as you said, a 50-50 issue.

Now it is Republican quicksand. Senior campaigns and elections editor Stephen Shepard writes in part, conservatives are finding out the hard way that abortion isn't a 50-50 issue anymore. Janet Protasewicz's 11-point blowout victory this week for a state Supreme Court seat in Wisconsin was just the latest example of voters who support abortion rights outnumbering and outvoting their opponents. The Supreme Court's Dobb decision last year has exposed Americans' broad opposition to the strict abortion bans adopted or proposed in GOP-controlled states. After the Wisconsin defeat, along with numerous others, including abortion-related ballot measures in red states, Such a strict prohibition runs headlong into national public

opinion. And it raises the question, how, if at all, are Republicans going to find a message that puts the party more in line with the median voter? The Roe v. Wade framework, making abortion mostly legal but allowing states to impose modest restrictions is where the majority of American voters are from the midterms to Wisconsin, potentially to the 2024 elections. They are continuing to punish the party that is straying for furthest from that. The Wall Street Journal editorial page who last week told Republicans you need to get abortion right at the same time that you have people like Ann Coulter saying, Republicans, you have to get sane on abortion or you're going to keep losing elections.

This is what the Wall Street Journal editorial page said today. There's a political gift to Democrats that they want to keep giving, which explains why they almost were gleefully furious on Friday after a Texas federal judge overruled the Food and Drug Administration's approval of the abortion pill. A conflicting order by a lower court means the Supreme Court will be handling the issue again. The court's Dobbs decision last summer handed abortion regulation to the states, but many on the anti-abortion right and abortion rights left are trying to nationalize it again via the courts. The justices in Dobbs sought to extricate themselves from regulating abortion,

but partisans on both sides don't want them to let them. Anyway, it goes on and on. This is a long way. Charlie Sykes, I'll go to you. The kicker here is Wall Street Journal editorial page for the I think the second time, maybe three weekday editions are telling Republicans you've got abortion wrong. You're going too extreme on abortion. It's going to keep costing you elections. And here they say courts should stay out of what the FDA does. Regulating drugs isn't the business of the courts any more than abortion is. Wall Street Journal editorial page. And Charlie, I come to you first only because I know your experience is like mine. You probably live with

or surrounded by a go to the grocery store and see go everywhere you go and see Trump voters, Republicans. That's what everywhere I go. Man, the last two, three, four weeks, what a massive change. I'm hearing it from family, from friends, from everybody, a sheer exhaustion with Trump. But I think what shocks me even more is this abortion issue. People have called themselves pro-life. Their entire lives are now saying, yeah, pro-life, but especially the women pro-life. But I don't want the government telling me what to do with my body. It's not always that simple. It's not always black and white. And you can just see for the first time in six years, not small cracks, massive cracks in this this coalition that that just my God, I I think this decision this weekend is just going to expedite the collapse. So the Republicans are trapped by their own base on all of this. I mean, they know that they need to pivot on the abortion issue, but they can't do it because they are beholden to the more extreme elements. And look, there's a division in the pro-life movement between people who will say,

you know, we ought to fight this out in terms of hearts and minds, convince people to make different choices versus the more dominant faction, which says, no, we we got this win and we need to go to ramming speed as many punitive pieces of legislation and court rulings as possible. And so the pro-life movement could have taken the Dobbs ruling and said, hey, you know, we got to win. Let's chalk it up. Let's advance more pro-child, pro-family pieces of legislation. Find ways to take, you know, find where the sweet spot in public opinion is.

Instead, they have decided to double and triple down. And you saw that in Wisconsin. You're going to see it in places like Florida as well. And so you're absolutely right. There are a lot of people who have called themselves pro-life. But until the Dobbs ruling, you know, they there were no actual live bullets in the gun. They didn't have to work out exactly what does that mean? Does it mean exceptions for rape and incest? What do we mean by the health of the mother? And are we going to try to legislate women's access to pills that they take in private. And I think this is where you have the line where a lot of people on the right who spent

the last two years marching around saying, my body, my choice, the government should not mandate what I can and can't do now are pivoting and going, well, wait, what now? I can't even get this pill. I can't even get this treatment in Iowa. They're no longer providing emergency contraception to rape victims. The new Republican attorney general. This is not the way to pivot and to appeal to the vast majority. But again, I'm sorry to go on so long, but this is one of the consequences of the gerrymandering, where a lot of these Republicans no longer feel that they have to appeal to swing voters. They are simply appealing to their base and the hardcore base is the one that is driving them. And so they're trapped by this. So and it's it's it's not just the concept of abortion, someone getting abortion because they don't want to have a baby.

It is health. And you're seeing these stories play out across the country, people deciding to stay in certain states because of these rules. There's a woman in Florida who has been denied an abortion. Her baby is going to die and she has to go through the entire pregnancy and watch her baby suffocate to death after she gives birth because she's being refused an abortion. It's a Washington Post piece. And Jen Palmieri, this is the Republican Party has the albatross of Trump. And I'll quote Chris Christie, who I think was dead right in one instance here where he said, you know what? An indictment, no matter how big or how small the case, is never good. So he's already hurt by an indictment and possibly more coming. And then the party overall has this abortion issue.

I don't know how they think that they even have half a chance in 2024. I see two big phenomenons here. One is on the stress test of American democracy continues unabated. So you have with the abortion issue, you have there's a lot of there's some heavily red states, there's some heavily blue states, and then you have the states in the middle, places like Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania. We've seen in both Wisconsin and in Michigan in the last few months, votes that suggest abortion rights is such a huge issue. You know, Gretchen Whitmer won there by 11 points.

A ballot initiative to overturn an abortion ban passed by a huge margin as well. The Wisconsin Supreme Court justice raised the woman won by 11 points. That's a huge that's a huge victory in a state like Wisconsin. So issues like abortion, issues like democracy, protecting the right to vote in this still this the few states that we have, there's still swing states are such a big deal. And voters are turned on huge numbers numbers to support women's rights, to support Democratic rights. You just, it's hard to see.

I mean, I don't ever discount the power of Trump, but it's hard to see how he can, in the end, you know, work it so that he's going to be able to get the 270 that you would need when they just continue to push on abortion that is alienating the voters, particularly in these swing states. And, you know, it's so interesting, Mika, you and Jen and I had a conversation last summer before the 2022 election, even before Kansas. And I said, you know, the difference between Republicans and Democrats has always been politically Republicans focus on states. And I said, you know, the difference between Republicans and Democrats has always been politically Republicans focus on states. And I said Republicans right now would be focusing on nailing down Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania instead of looking

nationally. Democrats had a tendency to look nationally. Well, there were a lot of people focusing on those individual states after all. And what did you see? I mean, Michigan complete a complete turnaround over the past year. Wisconsin, a massive landslide in the judicial race in a state that is is is the ultimate swing state. And then Kansas as well. You look at what happened in Kansas last summer. It's really shocking. And Morigay, it's crazy. I think here we find ourselves in 2023 and I think we're going to end up where Bill Clinton was in 1992. And I'm not just talking about for Democrats. I'm talking about Americans. When Bill Clinton came out and they asked him his position on abortion, he goes, I think it needs to be safe, legal and rare.

And I'm hearing that not from Democrats, not from activists on the street. I'm hearing that from Republicans. I'm hearing that from people who never voted for a Democrat before. And women who consider themselves pro-life forever. And then this ruling this weekend is just what, again, the quicksand quickens for Republicans. Well, part of what's happening is I think what Mika alluded to a moment ago, which is the vast gulf in the difference in the way that the extremists who are pushing one punitive bill after another in states across America, punishing women. And it's clear to voters that this is about punishing women and providers rather than protecting life. So there's that. And then there's women and all of those in our lives who care about us and love us, who cannot separate abortion from health care, but also cannot separate abortion from the other slew of reproductive health care that we use to have autonomy over our bodies and our lives and our destinies. And so it's very clear that this was not going to stop at abortion with the Dobbs decision. And therefore, women across America are not only

thinking, you know, have I ever had an abortion? Will I need an abortion? Will someone in my life have an abortion? That's concerning. Of course, it's alarming. We're also thinking, is the IUD next? Are they going to decide whether or not I can continue a pregnancy that may be wanted, but there's a problem with that fetus? This is visceral, and it's also offensive because it's really, you know, what women go through monthly, but of course with reproduction, is extremely intimate. It's a blessing, but it's also a burden. And it's scary. Pregnancy is dangerous. No one's talking about the maternal mortality rate in this country, which is abominable, especially among black women. And I think that is really what kind of peels back the, I don't know, it's just,

it's not a genuine argument. No one who is of good faith can look at this political landscape and look at these bills across America that Republican legislatures are pushing and think that they are pro-life, that they are pro-woman. It's the opposite. And I think that is that kind of visceral problem that the Republicans are going to have, not only with Democratic voters, but with anybody who has ever had anyone in their life making these decisions. And hello, wake up, Republicans. That's all of Americans. So it's just that disconnect is impossible, I think, for them to breach politically. And I'm hearing that even from those on the right in the faith community, even the Black faith community, that may have on a certain level of their particular way of interpreting their faith been pro-life.

I've always been pro-choice, but they're saying now we are looking at it. This is being punitive and it's misogynist. There's nothing in any of these decisions that call on men to have to do anything. This is all on the burden of women, potential mothers. And how far do you go? And it is clearly playing politics using the courts. And I think, Joe, they have gone too far. They're overrunning the runway here and they're going to politically crash because the way they're doing this is so punitive and so abusive. And even your most far right member of the faith community, black community, white community, we have daughters. And at some point it goes beyond what you would hope your daughter would

do, advise your daughter to do. Then somebody saying, I'm going to make you a criminal. And I think that that's what these decisions are starting to shape in the minds of a lot of people who wouldn't have been there a decision or two ago. You know, one of the reasons, Rev, why when I first ran in 94, I would knock on doors, knocked on 10,000 doors. Sometimes people would invite me into their homes that invite me to sit down and have dinner with them. And I didn't do the talking. I know that may shock people because I'm on a platform that now pays me to talk for four hours, but I just sit and listen. And I know you've been with parishioners where you go and you sit and listen. And I would sit and listen, and I'd be fascinated by what I heard. And if it happened in two or

three or four houses over a week or two weeks, I knew this is something that all Americans were talking about. And so we talk about, for instance, the 10-year-old girl in Ohio that was raped, that was forced to flee the state, the example of a 14-year-old girl raped by her uncle in Michigan, and that being what the Republican candidate considered a perfect example of why there should be forced births in Michigan. And then you have Florida talking about being invasive. You actually had the Florida Sports Association talking about how they were going to make parents report on their daughter's menstrual cycles. Think about this. All of this is adding up. The party of less government. All of this is adding up. And so what I'm starting to hear now when I sit down with Republicans, when I sit down and like, for instance, this weekend, when this issue came up, I'm starting to hear stories from them that I didn't know about.

It's starting to be conversation. For instance, Mika just said, did you hear about the woman who had a baby? The doctor said it was going to die, suffocate seconds after it was born. She was forced to carry it to term and then forced to have a funeral and then all of this other stuff. And and everybody has a story now, John Meacham. It's reached critical mass and it was there before this abortion pill ruling this weekend. And I must say, I have been caught. I thought it would hurt Republicans, but I didn't think it was going to be a political landslide. Like, for instance, we saw in 78 with Prop 13, how that suggested that that the Reagan revolution was was about

to go national. But part of this also just has to do this political earthquake, the likes of which I would suggest we haven't seen in quite some time on any issue, has been helped along by extremists. Extremists in my home state where I live most of my life. Extremists in your state and the legislature there. Extremists in Texas. We talked to a professional businesswoman this weekend. She said she wanted to move back to Florida. She couldn't do it until she delivered her baby. Like these are and I say, are you kidding me? Said, yeah, these are real life choices that are being made by women who might look at the laws of Tennessee and say, I can't afford to go back there. What if something goes wrong with my pregnancy?

What if my child and and it's again, it's an earthquake, but it's an earthquake helped along by extremism, the likes of which I must say I never thought I would see. Out of touch. So out of touch. I think and I can't help just because of where I'm sitting in Nashville to bring this up as well. You know, 14 days ago, the children and the teachers and the adults who were murdered at the Covenant School were getting ready for school at this hour. And I bring it up because there's the issue of reproductive health. There's the issue of a wildly and if I may, weirdly expansive view of the Second Amendment. There's an anti-democratic lowercase d movement because we have a super majority here because Republicans can expel two members. They did. And these things are connected.

And it's a reminder. And imagine a world where we haven't even mentioned the indictment of a former president and the potential indictments coming. It's a reminder that what Trump has represented, which is this showmanship, this we're going to own the libs, is actually of enormous real world consequence, right? His reality show, which is about his attention and his fundraising and his ego and his narcissism, has an impact on how people live and how the vulnerable live. And people who are vulnerable who don't even know they're vulnerable because they're nine years old and they're going to school. And so the right wing and Joe, you alluded to it.

You grew up around this. You were elected. The right wing needs to be a fully functioning part of a two party constitutional system. And they can believe what they want to believe about reproduction and about guns and that's all what they're supposed to do. And then you take it to the people. And when you take it to the people, you then obey the result because that's what we do. That's what separates us from chaos. And think about what the right is doing here. They're doing two things. They're pushing arguably too far on these important issues. And then if they get a result they don't like, they storm a Capitol or they throw people out of a legislature. It seems to me you can have the first, but you can't have the second. And if you insist on having both, then you are not part of this conversation. And we need a conversation that has people of good faith, whether you agree with them or not.

These are these are difficult issues, right? I mean, the definition of life and the row system. This isn't easy. There are people of enormous goodwill, enormous goodwill, who differ from lots of folks that we're talking to and about. But you take it to the system, you take it to the Constitution,

and if there's a decision, you respect it. And if the decision goes the other way, you work within channels. You don't throw people out of legislative bodies. Yeah, there you go. Well, you know, it is. It's a very difficult issue, abortion. It's a very difficult issue, abortion. It's a nuanced position. People have layers and layers of thoughts and beliefs, and there are good people on both sides.

But if you want to know where America is, it's not on the extremes of this issue. It understands how morally complicated it is. And more and more men are understanding, as I said, in that focus group of Trump supporters, that they just don't think it's their right to tell a woman what to do with their body. I will say, Charlie, what's so fascinating about all of these conversations that we've had over the past week or two, whether it's Tennessee or whether it's abortion now, this abortion pill ruling, whether it's Tennessee or whether it's abortion now, this abortion pill ruling, whether it's guns, background checks, et cetera, et cetera. Here we are on MSNBC, considered a liberal network.

And what we're saying, especially on abortion, which I'm sure people on the extreme right would say, oh, my God, there's being so liberal. What we're saying is actually what The Wall Street Journal editorial page, for the most part, is saying. What we're saying is what Republican voters are saying behind closed doors. Maybe not that so-called base. But it just reminds me, Charlie, that, you know, we feel the responsibility. We do here, at least. And I know other networks are always trying to be fair and down the middle. I just at this point. I think we're reporting a lot of false positives when we report on what the extreme right is saying, because they are driving a wedge between themselves and 60, 65, if you're talking about guns, 70, 80 percent of the public. And we're presenting a false positive either here

or on other channels. If we're saying, well, one side believes this one's about the story right now. And it's why we've gone on for 31 minutes this morning. The story right now is what our story has been over the past six months. How the Trump Republican Party, the party we used to be members of and loved and fought for, is destroying itself. And that snowball is moving down the hill at a faster and faster pace. And this morning, it grew exponentially. I think that's right. And I was listening to John, you know, talk about, you know, the connection between all these these issues and and the through line. And the through line is that that on the right, it's the id run amok. They decided that with their super majorities, with their power, with their wins, they're going to push everything to the most extreme element.

And, of course, that is not where the American people are. You know, think about abortion. It is a complicated issue. And the Americans, both pro-choice and pro-life, generally have very nuanced views about it. And I think they're ignoring that right now by pushing for these sorts of things. So, yeah, I agree with you that you add up a number of the events that are taking place right now, whether it's Tennessee, whether it's abortion, whether it's on gun rights. And almost day by day, they're moving further away from the vital center of American politics. One more comment, though, about the pro-life movement.

They could have, in the wake of Dobbs, really begun to stress their support for the seamless culture of life. Instead, they've decided to go for these performative, punitive measures. And the problem, of course, for Republicans and for the right to talk about that we are the pro-life, that we are the pro-life, pro-child party is that as long as Donald Trump controls the party, they're never going to be the pro-life party because they have embraced cruelty and they have embraced brutality. And that contradiction, I think, is very much on display these days. Charlie Sykes, thank you very much. And John Meacham, thank you as well. Still ahead on Morning Joe, a lot of news to get to this morning. Leaked Pentagon documents reveal an alarming assessment of the war in Ukraine. We'll speak with a former CIA officer about the national security concerns

there. Also ahead, why Bill Barr believes Donald Trump's historic indictment in New York might not be his last. We'll play for you the comments from the former attorney general about this Justice Department's classified documents case, plus the heightened diplomatic tensions between the U.S. and China over Taiwan. We'll go live to the region and get expert analysis from Richard Haass on that, as well as Jon Rahm earning an iconic green jacket at Augusta National. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. I'd be most concerned about the document case in Mar-a-Lago. I think that's a serious potential case. I think they probably have some very good evidence there.

I think it depends on how sensitive the documents were, but also what evidence they have of obstruction and games playing by the president. The president, unfortunately, has a penchant for engaging in reckless and self-destructive behavior that brings these kinds of things on him. This stuff is going to drag out through through 24 and it's going to stymie and disrupt the whole Republican primary process. And I think part of, as I said, I think part of the reasoning behind it is that they know this is a red flag to a big portion of Trump's base. And that they're going to rally to him because they feel that this is persecution. And that will strengthen Trump's hand throughout the process. I also think, though, as far as the general election is concerned, it will gravely weaken Trump. He's already, I think, a weak candidate that would lose, but I think this sort of assures it.

Former U.S. Attorney General Bill Barr with that assessment, and recently he was also talking about how undisciplined Trump would be in a legal situation. Jen Palmieri, your new piece for Vanity Fair is entitled My Career Has Seen Many Powerful Men Get Caught in Sex Scandals. Donald Trump knows he's vulnerable. And you write in part, quote, My career, which began in the early 1990s, aligned with the dawn of a new age of accountability. So it did not surprise me when out of the three criminal investigations of former President Donald Trump currently underway, it was the one involving a cover up of an affair that resulted in the first indictment against him. Many Trump opponents are still

looking for him to pay a price for his more offensive actions toward women, democracy and a host of other sins. But the public's frustration is not what the criminal justice system is there to rectify, nor should it be a vessel to satisfy the public's political desires. Political accountability happens at the ballot box, and Trump has already paid the highest price by having voters reject him in 2020. But those looking for him to pay a heavier price for his actions or just hoping for a bit of schadenfreude can find solace in the Manhattan case. The underlying fact that he sought to cover up the alleged affair, the anger that was apparent on his face in the courtroom, and the constant enraged haranguing of prosecutors all revealed the same truth.

Donald Trump knows he is vulnerable. And so, Jen, I take it you get that it not surprised at all that it started and ended with covering up an affair with a porn star. But yet one thing does seem different. And that is that it seemed like during the age of Bill Clinton and all of that, there was shock. People were shocked about what happened. They considered what happened to be not good. And here you don't have a lot of Republicans saying that it didn't happen or expressing shock that it did did it's just a it's just accepted that it happened yeah they won't go the um republicans that are defending trump they just they don't go to the substance of the charge against him or the underlying uh bad behavior on this part they

just lead to the to the process and try to make it um and try to make it political. But, I mean, one of the things I say in the piece is I understand the concept of rooting for your political opponent to be convicted of a crime. That's a human thing to do. But it's a misplaced sense of what it means to be held accountable in a democracy. And this, you know, there was a similar charge. I worked for John Edwards. There was a not identical but similar charge against him. Ultimately, a jury decided that the prosecution had not made their case, and there was a mistrial there.

He was not convicted. I was glad. I did not want him to be. I did not want to see John Edwards go to jail. But these things are up to juries. They're not subject to public opinion. It doesn't mean that public opinion doesn't matter. And even though Republicans aren't talking about the underlying behavior, bad behavior of Trump, as you said, Mika, voters are.

And, you know, there was a lot of consternation and Democrats were fretting that this is the, this Jeremy Daniels case is not the best case to move forward with first, as if it would be appropriate or for prosecutors to coordinate on these matters, which of course it's not. But I just don't think that's true. I think people understand the, and you see polling, last week there was polling that 60% of people polled said that they supported the indictment. I know there's new polling this week that suggests that number may go even higher, but, you know, Trump's sketchy behavior with the woman that Donald Trump does to protect himself politically, I think Americans hear that and say, yeah, that checks out. That sounds like something that guy would do. And regardless of party affiliation, that adds to, you know, that just adds to the burden of like if even Republicans are thinking like,

wow, it's just too much with this guy. There's just too much hypocrisy, too much baggage. Jen, Mara Gay here in The New York Times. Your piece is great. I guess I'm wondering, you know, part of the irony here for me is that Donald Trump was allegedly, you know, covering up a consensual affair. And of course, there have been many accusations against the former president of sexual misconduct and even rape. And so this is not what this is about. And so it's a little ironic

because he was trying to cover that up, but I guess it just raises the question for me, do Americans still care about kind of misbehaving male politicians or not? I mean, really the case is not about that. The caseaving male politicians or not. I mean, really, the case is not about that. The case is about whether or not he broke the law in covering that up. But help us understand, what do you think voters actually care about here? Is this about punishing Donald Trump's bad behavior in general with women,

or is this about something else? I think that the public reaction, you know, I, you know, Mara, I lived through October of 2016 and the Access Hollywood tape. And after, you know, just to set up the timeline here, the Access Hollywood tape on October 7th, October 8th, Stormy Daniels' lawyer got in touch with the Trump team to say, hi, she's back. And then it was during this time, as dozens of women came forward to accuse Trump of harassment, assault, it was during that time that the Trump team made their deal with Stormy Daniels. Trump has admitted to the payment. He says there was not know, Trump is Trump has admitted to the payment. He says there was not a fair, but he's admitted to the payment.

And that's revealing because it shows they were worried about public reaction as much bravado as Trump was showing in 2016, talking about how women were too unattractive and too fat for him to be, to assault, you know, that's, that's pretty offensive. Um, that they were, they were worried about this, this story becoming public and they paid a significant amount of money to keep it from becoming public. So that, that's why I mean, when I say it shows that he is vulnerable and obviously three weeks after that America left in president of the United States. And that was a gut punch to me and millions and millions and millions of women in America. And I think what you've seen happen in the past five years is an attestment to that with all the women running, winning office, voting in huge historic numbers.

But you do see now people say, people supporting this indictment, whether or not it's because of his underlying bad behavior or that it was illegal. I suspect it's more about just, you know, more bad behavior, treating women poorly. That is distasteful that for voters to see this in Trump. Jen Palmieri of Showtime's The Circus, New Peace and Vanity Fair. Thank you very much for coming on this morning. And coming up, we'll get a live report from Beijing following China's military drills that appeared to seal off the island of Taiwan. And a little later, we'll dig into new analysis on why there are fewer swing districts in Congress. Morning Joe is back in just a moment. Mika, I didn't know if you knew this or not, but back in the 70s, TJ and I, we're on this

WNBC chopper. Right. It was crazy. TJ's hair is like out to like, you know, way out. Now it's really different. Man, it was crazy. And, you know, he's sort of like a MacGyver fixing up the chopper sometimes while we were in midair. Okay. That's cool. That's good to know. It's the good old days.

It's 52 past the hour. We're going to actually say something serious here now. Sister Golden Hair's ended. I do love that song. I know you do. Yeah. So we Hair's ended. I do love that song. I know you do. Yeah. So we have to start. All right.

Welcome back. And this is serious. A rough transition, as they say in the business. Past the hour. Earlier today, Taiwan reported seeing 70 Chinese warplanes and 11 warships in its surrounding waters in the latest set of drills launched by China. Moments ago, China's military announced, though, its mission has been completed, indicating those drills may now be over. Joining us now live from

Beijing, NBC News foreign correspondent Janice Mackey-Frayer, and from Taipei, Taiwan, NBC News national security and military correspondent Courtney Kuby. So, Janice, we'll begin with you. Yesterday, I had heard from a friend in the Pentagon. They were very concerned about these exercises and believed that we were moving towards a conflict. But every analysis I've read outside of that, every person that I've had contacts with in China over the past week said actually that Xi pulled back a bit in

these exercises. Now the ending of these exercises would suggest that. Were you hearing conflicting signals throughout the weekend or had you heard all along that China was going to be a bit more restrained? Well, China had said that it was simulating sealing off Taiwan and that they had rehearsed precision strikes on key targets. This is the first time we've heard that sort of language associated with the drills. But the drills are not were not as intense or expansive as the ones that we saw last summer after Nancy Pelosi's visit. What is curious, Joe, is that how some of this language describing the drills is being picked up and amplified to create this impression that there's this ominous drumbeat towards war, which is not the case right now. Beijing has been very deliberate in its response to that meeting between House Speaker McCarthy and Tsai Ing-wen. Xi Jinping is trying to position himself as a global statesman and China as a

diplomatic power player. They're also playing the long game here. There are presidential elections in Taiwan next January. They're hoping that a more mainland friendly candidate is going to be returned to power. So there was the sense that they weren't out to scare voters with the military drills, but certainly to be able to have the show of power, the show of confidence, and maybe have people think perhaps the U.S. isn't going to come to your rescue. What is really interesting for me in this is what has been generating attention here in state media and in social media. It's not the drills and it's not the U.S. delegation that's been visiting Taipei. It's anything to do with France. It's anything French. It's Emmanuel Macron, who is

being absolutely celebrated here after that state visit last week because of some of the comments that he was making about European strategic autonomy and not always falling into line with the U.S. position. That's after the comments he made here. Then he gave that interview to Politico and a couple of French journalists where he said, quote, the question Europeans need to answer, is it in our interest to accelerate a crisis on Taiwan? No. The worst thing would be to think that we Europeans must become followers on this topic and take our cue from the U in Ukraine. So it would not be in Europe's best interest to try to make commitments to Taiwan.

So that has been music to some nationalist ears here, where the Taiwan issue actually gets very broad-based support from people who think that the island should be unified with the mainland. It also doesn't strategically help the U.S. here at a time when there is no high level communication between the U.S. and China. There is very little trust between the two sides and there doesn't appear to be any clear momentum to get any of it back on track. So, Janice, a lot to talk about here really quickly. I just this weekend I saw some op eds attacking Macron, acting as if this is a reaction to something that happened in the past couple of weeks. Macron has been voicing for six months, six to nine months, that he does not trust the United States on China. And in fact, so much of this surely goes back to the blow up over over the

nuclear subs, the deal that the United States poached from France. I think there's still smarting from that on on China. I also, though, I want to I want to ask you about something that I keep hearing. China, of course, opened up for the first time since COVID in a real way. A lot of business people, diplomats, think tank types going back over to China, and they all come back. And Janice, they're reporting the same thing to me. First, they're welcome with open arms. The Chinese that they meet are so glad that they are back, whether it's to invest, whether it's to talk. So glad that they're re-engaging with the rest of the world, one. And two, to a person, Janice, and I'm fascinated what you hear,

they all express just they're baffled, actually. They're baffled that the United States and both parties are as hostile toward them as they are. And what they say is we've always been rivals. We've always butted heads. But they ask the business people, the diplomats, the think tank types, basically, why do Americans, all Americans, hate us so much more now than before. What has been interesting about the opening up, as you describe, is starting to see these business people and some tourists trickle back. Emmanuel Macron came for his state visit with no fewer than 50 business leaders and CEOs from the French community. They were talking about deals on energy, on culture, on television shows. So there was this sort of

conversations that Chinese officials were wanting to have, shoring up those ties with Europe, those trade ties with Europe that are so important to China right now, given the deterioration in the relationship with the U.S. We're still waiting for Xi Jinping to make that phone call to Zelensky. We're still waiting for President Biden and Xi Jinping to have the conversation that they're supposed to have so that the plans can go ahead to reschedule the visit of Secretary of State Blinken, that summit that was supposed to put the floor under relations right now. We're just not seeing any of that momentum happening. And as coming off this visit with Macron, there is a real sense of confidence in the China-Europe relationship. And that can't be understated.

Let's turn to Courtney Kuby now. And Courtney, how is the Taiwanese government reacting to the new military exercises? Well, you know, despite the fact that these exercises have not been at the same scale and intensity as what we saw after Nancy Pelosi's visit here last summer, we shouldn't discount just how large these exercises here were. You know, we talked about 70 warplanes that were that were moving towards Taiwanese airspace. About half of those actually breached into Taiwanese airspace. That's 70 per day over the last three days. There's 11 Chinese warships.

They've been moving around the island. They're practicing a naval blockade. While that is so significant, it's because that means not only can imports not get into Taiwan, food, oil, and natural gas, but it means that exports cannot get out. Taiwan manufactures more than 90% of the advanced semiconductors that are used around the world. And if that supply is shut off, that will have a nearly immediate impact on the world economy. So simulating a naval blockade is not insignificant. In addition to that, yesterday on Sunday, we saw the Chinese simulate attacks on key targets in and around Taiwan. And they released this graphic, the Ministry of Defense out of Beijing, that seemed to show one of these missiles striking in Taipei. So very escalatory,

provocative exercise that's been going on here the past three days. And in addition to the fact that it was in response to this meeting with President Tsai, the president here in Taiwan, and House Speaker Kevin McCarthy in California last week, there was also just hours after that meeting, a bipartisan delegation arrived here in Taipei and spent three days meeting with high-level officials here in Taiwan, including on Saturday meeting with the president just freshly back from her visit to the U.S. Now, one of the reasons that officials here believe that the intensity of these exercises is slightly muted from where it was last year is because that meeting with Kevin McCarthy occurred in California. That is seen by some here as sort of a win-win-win. The Chinese won because the meeting wasn't here in Taiwan. Taiwanese won because they still got the meeting. And the U.S. won because they got the

meeting as well. So in some ways, that may have brought down some of the tensions. Now, we had the opportunity today, actually, to ask the Taiwanese government, senior level of the Taiwanese government, for a reaction on this final day of these exercises. We spoke with the foreign minister, Joseph Wu, and he said he's concerned because even though these last three days have not been as bad as what we saw last summer, these exercises continue to escalate in their intensity, and they show a real threat from Beijing to the island here in Taiwan. Here's what he had to say. I want to start with these Chinese military exercises. Are you concerned that they are increasingly escalatory every time they carry out these exercises?

Yes. The Chinese military threat against Taiwan has been real and it has been increasing. For two days already, the Chinese mounted large-scale air and sea military exercises against Taiwan. And these kinds of military threat against Taiwan should not be tolerated by the international community. If you look at the Chinese military threat against Taiwan, they are trying to take any kind of pretext to launch military exercises against Taiwan. And that is not right at all. And Minister Wu also really stressed the need for more weapons here in Taiwan.

That was a big focus of all these meetings between U.S. and Taiwanese officials over the past several days, getting them the weapons that they need to hopefully deter an invasion, but if not to defend against one. Joe and Mika. Courtney Kuby in Taipei, Taiwan, and Janice Mackey-Frayer in Beijing, China. Thank you both very much for your reporting this morning.