Morning Joe - Morning Joe 4/14/25

Episode Date: April 14, 2025

Suspect in custody after overnight arson at Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro's residence

Hi, it's me, your favorite president Donald Jesus Trump. Comparing myself to the son of God once again. You know, many people are even calling me the messiah because of the messiah made out of the economy. All because of my beautiful derives. They're so beautiful. Jesus Christ is a name we've been saying a lot lately. We're saying it a lot.

We look at our 401K and say, Jesus Christ, where did it all go? I don't know, but we're gonna fix that. Or not, we'll see, should be interesting. At my annual physical this week, they said I'm in great shape. One of the best shapes, lump. So in conclusion, the US dollar has died and gone to money heaven.

Bye bye. Some people say I don't know what I'm doing, but I actually, I'm playing four dimensional chess, okay? Bing bing. Bing bing, bing bing, bing bing. King me. Bing bing bing. Time to wake up.

Saturday Night Live's cold open take on President Trump and a chaotic week fueled by his tariffs. We'll have an update on the president's trade war with China after his administration added exemptions to several key products. But are there consequences to that? Also ahead, we'll bring you the latest on the Maryland man who mistakenly was deported to a prison in El Salvador. The Supreme Court ruled last week the Trump administration must facilitate his return.

But now the DOJ is pushing back on that order. Plus, we'll go through a major escalation in Ukraine following a deadly Russian attack over the weekend. We'll have full details on that and how that impacts any or all talks going on right now. We'll also get a live report from Texas ahead of a star-studded space launch set for later this morning with my friend Gail on board. That'll be fun and we'll, I hope, and we'll have the highlights from a thrilling final round at the Masters with Rory McElroy earning his first green jacket. And yes, that's why Richard Haas is here this morning. We're going to dedicate a great deal of the show to golf.

Everybody needs a break. You're welcome, but not yet. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It's Monday, April 14th. Good to have you on board with us. Of course, we have the cohost of our fourth hour and contributing writer at the Atlantic, Jonathan Lemire. The host of Pablo Torre finds out on Metal Arch Media, MSNBC contributor Pablo Torre, President Emeritus of the Council of War and Relations. Richard Haas is here,

U.S. special correspondent for BBC News and the host of the Rest is Politics podcast, Cady K. on board with us this morning. And let's see, is he here? Oh, good. NBC News national affairs analyst and partner and chief political columnist at PUC, John Allman, here with us this morning. Fantastic. The odds were against.

I mean, you were were gonna bet against. Yeah, I mean past his prologue it was iffy. Right, right. We're glad he's here. Yeah. What were your bets Pablo? I had minus 300. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I favor it as the bunker electricity looks strong right now. Yeah, it does. You know, it's a point flip. Exactly. I love that he's on remote because then there's a delay and actually can't kind of bark back at us, but he'll get us. All right. We'll get right to the news this morning and we'll start this morning in Pennsylvania.

A suspect is in custody after authorities say he scaled a security fence seven foot high early yesterday and broke into the governor's mansion where he set a fire. The flames left significant damage and forced Governor Josh Shapiro, his family, and guests to flee the buildings in the middle of the night. The governor said he, his wife, their four children, and another family had celebrated the Jewish holiday of Passover

at the residence on Saturday and were awakened by a state trooper pounding on their doors around 2 AM. Well, my family and I were asleep upstairs here at the governor's residence. One of the state troopers assigned to our detail banged on our door, woke us up and told us we had an emergency and needed to leave immediately.

us up and told us we had an emergency and needed to leave immediately. Together we secured all of our children, our two dogs, our family that was staying with us, and the troopers safely evacuated us from the governor's residence. After they fled, firefighters managed to extinguish the flames. You can see extensive damage there. No one was injured. Later on Sunday, officials captured a suspect identified as 38-year-old Cody Balmer. A motive was not immediately clear. But Governor Shapiro said officials believe it was a targeted attack.

We celebrated our faith last night proudly, and in a few hours we will celebrate our second Seder of Passover again proudly. No one will deter me or my family or any Pennsylvanian from celebrating their faith openly and proudly. This type of violence is not okay. This kind of violence is becoming far too common in our society. And I don't give a damn if it's coming from one particular side or the other.

coming from one particular side or the other, directed at one particular party or another or one particular person or another. It is not OK. And it has to stop. We have to be better than this. The suspect now faces charges of attempted murder, terrorism, aggravated arson and aggravated assault. He also may face federal charges. Nothing from authorities yet with a direct link on the holiday and whether or not this

was targeted in that way. At the same time, the timing and the obvious target here does lead one to believe that there is either unbelievably bad timing or a connection. Right. Police and the governor himself were careful not just to say we don't know motive just yet. It was the first night of Passover. Governor Shapiro, of course, one of the highest profile Jewish politicians in our country.

He also is someone who attracted national attention because he's on Vice President Harris's short list to be her running mate last year and is widely rumored to be a 2028 contender. So he is someone with a high profile. And he spoke, we played a little bit of it there. He was very emotional at moments yesterday in that news conference talking about the threat to his family, talking about his faith and the photographs of the governor's residence there.

The damage is extensive. This is not a small blaze. This was a significant fire. As you can see here, there's at least one picture that was going around that had some children's toys that were singed. You can see just devastation there in the governor's mansion. We're certainly grateful everyone is okay. We'll learn more about the suspects as the day goes on.

Let's now bring in the CEO of the Anti-Defamation League, Jonathan Greenblatt, again, to stipulate we don't have a motive yet, but we should put this in context. It is a moment where hate crimes of all sorts have risen across our country in recent years, particularly those, though, connected to anti-Semitism. And this was a very scary moment

that without some quick-thinking reaction by the Pennsylvania State Troopers could have cost lives. Yeah, look, I mean, I think you're right to point out. First and foremost, we don't know the motive, right? We can't yet speculate as to what went on. Was it just timing or something else? But there's a reason why this struck home for so many Jewish people, right? This is the Passover holiday.

This is a time when we've often seen anti-Semitic attacks, from the shooting in Poway in 2019 to throughout history. And so to see, as you said, Jonathan, one of the most high-profile Jewish politicians in America in a targeted attack that literally could have taken his life, life of his wife and his small children, it's just unacceptable. You know, violence shouldn't be the price of public service. I think we all need to look in the mirror because, yes, he's a prominent Jewish politician. Yes, he's a Democrat.

But this was anti-American. Setting fire to the home of a governor, it should be unacceptable, irrespective of how they might affiliate politically. Jonathan, this doesn't take place in a vacuum. Anti-Semitism, as you know better than anybody, is on the rise by any and every measure. What needs to be done, and what could be done, how do I put it, in response to this to hopefully make a significant pushback? Well, look, it's good that FBI Director Cash Patel reached out to Governor Shapiro yesterday

and said the federal government plans to put their full authority behind this. We need politicians on both sides of the aisle to call this out, but there's something else. We need people of all faiths to call this out. Again, yes, Governor Shapiro is Jewish, but it's an anti-American attack. So I think what we really need, Richard, is people, no matter how they pray or where they're from to say this can't happen in our country. So from my pure, just what it feels like to be an American waking up to footage like this.

You know, I just think about how my parents moved from the Philippines and that is a country that is riven by stories kinda full of photos like that. And they left to be in a place that doesn't have those scenes all of the time. So from a pure perspective of what it feels like from a rule of law perspective, Jonathan, from a what does it feel like to be an American right now, you've been balancing quite a bit when it comes to

due process on one hand with arrests and deportations and now this. Yeah. And I wonder what your brain looks like when you're trying to navigate how do I message what I'm trying to be balanced across all of these subjects that sort of have a through line like that? I think it's fair to point out, like, everything feels scrambled in many ways, but this drives home that this kind of violence has no place. We should be able to protect the civil rights of the governor of Pennsylvania or students on campuses without trampling other people's civil rights. That shouldn't be too hard.

CEO of the Anti-Defamation League, Jonathan Greenblatt, thank you. And by the way, it's obviously a good sign the head of the FBI is promising a full investigation. But to Jonathan Greenblatt's point, have we heard from leaders in this country, have we heard from the president of the United States on this attack on the home and the family of one of the nation's governors? We have not heard from President Trump. We did, FBI Director Patel reached out, as noted. The Attorney General, Pam Bondi, put out a statement. We did hear from the Vice President, who said it was really, quote, disgusting violence. But President Trump, who posted on Truth Social repeatedly yesterday, including about 60 minutes more than once, did not say anything.

And when he was asked about it on Air Force One last night, flying back from Florida, a reporter asked him to back the plane. He simply said, quote, I just heard about it. I'll have to look into it. Quick follow up to actually, Jonathan, before you go, I mean, shouldn't the President of the United States, wouldn't it be important for the president of the United States, who at times has been accused of dealing with anti-Semitic tropes, who at times has been accused of fostering violence?

We don't know motives here, but wouldn't it mean something if he were to condemn this? Look, I'm sure that he will. I hope that he will. I'm glad the AG did. I'm glad the FBI director did. And again, irrespective of how they feel, it means all politicians call it out. All right. One thing President Trump did talk about

is tariffs. He's implementing a tariff exemption on several electronic imports from China, but it's not clear how long this will last. Last week, the president raised tariffs on Chinese goods to 145%. Then late Friday night, officials announced smartphones, laptops, and other products will be excluded from the higher tariffs, though a 20 percent tax remains.

The president tried to deny any exemption was made. Writing on social media yesterday, nobody is getting off the hook. They're just moving to a different tariff bucket. Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick explained later the hook. They're just moving to a different tariff bucket. Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick explained later the situation. So what he's doing is he's saying they're exempt from the reciprocal tariffs but they're included in the semiconductor tariffs which are coming in probably a month or two. So these are coming soon. You shouldn't think this is really outside of it. Really think of it as being included in the semiconductor space, much like pharmaceuticals.

These require special attention, and the president is on it. So while speaking to reporters last night, the president doubled down on his threat to impose tariffs on semiconductor chips. and numerous other things, and that'll take place in the very near future. The tariff exemption was seen as a much needed reprieve for tech giants. Apple has been one of the hardest hit companies, losing nearly $640 billion in market cap within days of the president's Liberation Day tariff announcement.

So a lot here, the exemptions. Well, the takeaway here is just more uncertainty and more mixed messaging from the administration. It was revealed that late Friday night, they quietly rolled back a lot of the tariffs against the semiconductors and other chips being made in China. Then there was a sense of optimism over the market, like, OK, well, at least part of this, he's going to try to de-escalate the trade war. But then, Cate K, we heard from Commerce Secretary Lutnick yesterday saying, no, no, we're pulling these back,

but there's going to be more. We're going to put more targeted tariffs on these electronic equipment in the weeks ahead. And then we heard from President Trump the same. So I'll be very curious, as I'm sure most of the world is, how the markets will look when they open at 9.30 in reaction to this. But the bottom line is business leaders, investors,

average Americans, average citizens of the world have no idea what the economic policy is right now of this White House. Yeah, I mean, we've already spoken about the confusion, right? Are the tariffs on? Are they off? Are certain products exempt? Are they off? Are certain products exempt?

Are they not exempt? What happens in 90 days' time? What happens in 30 days' time in some cases? And the administration isn't clarifying that confusion. When it sends people out over the course of the weekend, you would think that on Sunday shows they would make an effort to have a united front and explain exactly what's going to happen so that when the markets open on Monday morning, there was some sense of clarity. But there's also a question of competence, of how much competence is there in this administration

when it comes to the handling not just of the American economy, but also of the world economy. And I think that's why you have, I mean, Richard, I don't know what you're hearing, but what I'm hearing from other countries, particularly from European leaders. The text that I've been getting over the last few days is we don't really trust this administration to steer what is a kind of global good, the international trading system, in a direction that is going to be the best for everybody. And so we're wondering how we can look elsewhere and what that looks like. What are you hearing on what alternatives America's trading partners are looking at

and what they're coming up with? First of all, Kadhi, you have a future in diplomacy, that was understatement. They don't understand. My dad was not a diplomat for nothing. There you go. They don't understand, they don't trust. You can't have confidence

because you don't have competence. And it's almost that simple. And it affects not just other governments, but CEOs. How are they supposed to make five and 10-year commitments when they don't know what the environment's going to be in five days? This is just going to slow economic growth. I think for others, what we've seen with the tariffs is if you were heavily involved with the United States economically, which historically has been to your advantage, now it's become a vulnerability, because this

is an administration that sees that as leverage, is willing to weaponize it. So I think what this does over time, people can't turn on a dime, but it pushes others away from the United States. They increasingly diversify their portfolios. I think China will be one of the beneficiaries. They'll look to trade with other countries around the world. They simply aren't going to want to be as dependent on the United States because we're too mercurial and we're too vindictive and too arbitrary.

And that will be the takeaway from this. So the Wall Street Journal editorial board has a new piece entitled Trump's Exceptional Tariff Weekend. And it reads in part this. Mr. Trump first makes U.S. companies less competitive than he and his administration pick exceptions worthy of help to remain competitive. Politicians, not success in the marketplace, pick business winners and losers.

Exemptions would also undermine the administration's legal justification that his tariffs are needed to meet a national emergency. Imports of glassware and umbrellas from China are an emergency, but imports of electronics aren't? All of this exposes the political nature of tariffs. Some industries benefit, but others don't. Welcome to the new tariff economy, where you still pay onerous taxes, endure punishing regulation, and

now must also navigate the political minefield of arbitrary tariffs, which ultimately make everybody have to come begging for their exemption. And I think the president used a term that I won't say on television, but something like that. Yeah. They don't have a plan, just to say that very bluntly. We are trying to interpret almost talmudically what's actually going on here. What is the intent behind this?

And they don't know. And so for me, Mika, when it comes to what the market is, the market is a measure of what people think is going to happen, right? So Heilman, if the market is a function of what smart people think is going to happen in the future, and you have an administration whose policy is entirely reactive, and there is no consistency, there is no principle, it's all about them reacting to things, almost independent of the people inside of it. I just wonder how you make sense of that tension, which feels like it's playing out with the

clarity because of the nature of the stock market that we actually haven't seen until this current cycle. Yeah, Pablo. I think the market, there's a kind of phrase that people use all the time about the stock market, which is, you know, there's this difference between the stock market and the real economy. We hear that all the time. And there is a difference between the stock market and the real economy. But in this case, what you've seen since the tariff jihad on the part of the Trump administration began, is the market reflecting something, one thing really clearly, which is that the market thinks that consumers

are going to get hammered in this trade war and the market is looking at the consumer-driven part of the economy and saying, we are headed towards a recession. And that's the one thing that the market has been kind of consistent about with the expected. We had the couple times last week, we had these surges in the market. But if you look at the market's performance over the last three weeks or so, when it became clear that Trump was serious to one degree or another about having this massive tariff regime, and the deeper we get into it, and the more that this unpredictability, the capriciousness, the selectivity, the reactiveness, all of those things are adding up to what Richard

was talking about a second ago, which is that the United States is losing its most cherished asset, which is that it's a reliable, trusted trading partner around the world. And the market is telling us that the loss of that asset means that consumers are going to pay a huge price for that going forward. The ultimate bet that the market is making is that we are, with each day, getting closer and closer towards an inevitable massive downturn in the real economy. Yeah. And a lot of folks who've been following this and participating in this economy in

a huge way are predicting a recession. Or even something worse, Jonathan Lemire, is the plan to sort of just, well, what does it feel like? I mean, the market's open on our watch today. We'll be watching along with Andrew Ross Sorkin. Is that what the president is doing? Well, yeah, I mean, over the weekend, again, there had been some optimism.

Like, OK, maybe this was you. They were taking a step back. Now it's just more mixed messaging. And we know the appeal of tariffs for President Trump. First of all, it is something he's believed in for a long time, even though economists largely think he's wrong about it. But it's also something he can just do unilaterally.

It's an exertion of executive power. He's expanding what he can do. And indeed, enjoys the idea of having these one-on-one negotiations. Country's coming to him to beg. Let's make a deal, Mr. Master Dealmaker. And it's all something he has completely skipped over the heads of Congress, the Republicans of Congress happily ceding this power to him. So that's the appeal for him. But what we're getting now is a very muddled message. And Richard's right, others are right.

It is diminishing the United States throughout the globe. Our allies and adversaries alike are less certain of what they can think about us. We are sacrificing our standing as the economic, reliable economic superpower. And that's something that may take a very long time to recover from. Alright, still ahead on Morning Joe, we'll be staying on this. We'll have the latest also on President Trump's efforts to end the return of a Maryland man who was wrongly deported to a prison in El Salvador. I would also add that some legal watchers say that they were all wrongly deported, by the way. You're watching Morning Joe.

We're back in 90 seconds. That was great. Rory McIlroy, overcome with emotion after sinking a putt on the first playoff hole yesterday to win the Masters. He becomes just the sixth man in PGA history to take home the career Grand Slam. It capped off a thrilling final round at Augusta. McElroy came into the day with a two-shot lead, which grew to four, heading into the final nine holes. But the ghosts emerged.

He then hit a shocking shot on the 13th hole, trying to play it safe, 82 yards from the cup. But his wedge shot was way offline, as you just saw. Ended up in the water. He double bogeyed that hole and bogey the next one. Seemed like another collapse, which allowed Justin Rose, who at one point yesterday was seven shots back. Well, he suddenly had a chance to go into the clubhouse tie with McElroy. Rose came up absolutely clutch on the 18th hole with a birdie

to put him at 11 under. McElroy then had a chance to win an outright on 18, but he couldn't sink the five foot par putt. Not a gimme. So close. Sending the Masters to its first playoffs since 2017. The drama continued on the green as Rose had a chance to bury the first playoff hole but he

couldn't quite drop it from 15 feet out so he had to settle for a par that opened the door for McElroy who would not miss this time on 18 and he won his first major in 11 years and Richard Hawks you were just saying a moment ago you were so nervous

watching this you walked about a mile in in your living room pacing back and forth McElroy has been the sentimental choice for most golf fans the last couple years because he's some come so close Yesterday he did it Irish golfer wonderful scene Six person history Mika will tell us the other five He did something that Arnold Palmer never did, which is have a career grand slam. And he, look, this is a guy who'd been carrying for 11 years these demons, ever since he'd blown it earlier times. And yesterday it was just, you know, you know, what was, tariffs were not liberation day. Yesterday was liberation day. It was a great

moment. And there he is putting on the green jacket, Pablo. And I think that's it. Golf in particular, it's such a solitary sport. This is not news. But you could see the players wrestle, not just with the course, not just with their opponents, but with themselves. And that's why it's so rewarding when you see them break through. It's a psychological torture chamber.

It is. And no one has lived in it longer at this level of greatness, Mika, than Rory McIlroy. When Richard is saying the career grand slam, yes, on paper, history will say that. It will maybe in a footnote note that he took over three times as long to get there. Eleven years, as aforementioned, to do the thing that he was destined at some point to do. But how long it would take. Like to me, the money shot was but how long it would take. To me, the money shot was the tracking shot, actually,

of him at the end. And you watch him go through this. He relived the stages of grief because in golf, you choke. This is the laboratory for examining what pressure does to your heart rate, to your brain. And so when that guy actually does it, after actually choking it away to the point where they got to go to a playoff,

you're saying to yourself, maybe he has disproven the fundamental criticism of what is flawed about him, while also inflaming the same thought in the same stroke. Right. So Pabllo, let me just button this up, help you out here. So now it's Gene Sarazin, Gary Player, Jack Nicklaus, Tiger, and now Rory. That's right, Tiger, and now Rory.

That's right. OK, got him there. How dare you doubt that? You left out Ben Hogan. There I did. Five out of six, because that's spectacular. That's good. That's pretty good.

Five out of six is a bad day. You'll get there. Congrats again. So let's now move on to the NBA, which wrapped up its regular season yesterday. Fun game 82. The biggest storyline out in the Western Conference as the LA Clippers and Golden State Warriors batted off the playoff seating.

The winner would get the fifth seed while the loser would fall all the way down and have to get stuck in the play-in tournament. To somewhat surprise, it's the Clippers who come out on top on overtime in the road thanks to a 30-point performance by both Kawhi Leonard and James Harden. The first round of the play-in tournament starts tomorrow night in the East. The Atlanta Hawks take on the Orlando Magic out West. The Memphis Grizzlies travel to the play that goes Warriors. And then there's a second round of playing games.

And then the real playoffs start next weekend. John Hollman. You know, the NBA has faced a lot of scrutiny this year. TV ratings down, a lot of complaints about the saneness of play, too many three-pointers, and too many stars taking days off, etc., etc., etc. But playoff time, they usually deliver. We know you're a Lakers fan, which we all hold against you. But tell us a little bit here as to what you're looking for, because LeBron and Luca, I will

say, not an easy first round against a good Minnesota Timberwolves team. Not an easy first round, Jonathan, and I'm sorry, like the universe, I apologize for the fact that the Lakers got Luca. I know I keep having to apologize for this over and over again as if it's like our fault that we ended up having this gift from the gods drop into our lap. He's favoring the Lakers, not coincidentally. That works. Exactly right. this gift from the gods dropping to our lap. He's favoring the Lakers, not coincidentally. That works.

That works. Exactly right. I'll tell you, I was at the, I was last week, I was at that Celtics-Nix game at Madison Square Garden and was reminded of how exciting the Eastern Conference could be this year. Even though I'm a Western Conference guy, those three teams, Nick, Celtics, and the Cavs, all are going to be battling, it seems to me, to win the Eastern Conference. And you know, I can't, you know, how many teams, Pablo, you tell me, how many teams in the West could win the NBA title this year?

How many of the plausible, there's like at least four, maybe five deep in the West that could be the champions in the NBA. I think this playoffs could be super exciting for that reason alone. Yeah, I think about the Knicks though because every time I show up at this desk next to John Lemire, he shows me a new headline that says, guess what happened? The Knicks lost yet again to the Celtics, the Cavs, or the Pacers. They are 0-10. Ideal in fact. They are 0-10. Ideal in fact. And it's, at this point, just a bullying operation by the Celtics' Homer.

It does happen here. But it is hard to dispute. I fear that it is hard to dispute that, right now, Nick's expectations are in a strange place. Overachieved last season, now everybody's bracing Mika for a choke, actually. They're bracing for a first round exit because they can't beat the teams that are actually

at the top of the Eastern Conference that John Hyland mentioned. So I will say, I do think you're right. There are four or five teams that Weston could do it, but the Thunder are the favorites. And they're a 68-win team. Somehow a 68-win team doesn't get enough attention. Richard Hostel, quick beat on the Knicks.

Pablo's right. Last year, they were a wonderful story. They ran out of gas, a lot of injuries in the playoffs. This year, a lot of expectations. Titletown, they seem like maybe a wonderful story. They ran out of gas, a lot of injuries in the playoffs. This year a lot of expectations. Titletown, they seem like maybe a step short. They are a step short. They gave up their future to fill out their current team for bridges. They gave up essentially too much.

So they are one step short of the top tier, the Celtics and the Cavs, Oklahoma City. So I don't think this is the next year. I'm hoping they get through Detroit, make it to the second round. Making it through Detroit is such a low bar. Jesus, man. I'm a realist, man. I know, but it through Detroit. Make it to the second round. Make it through Detroit. It's a low bar. I'm a realist, man. I know, but it's a problem. It's an active problem, Detroit. Richard Haas, thank you very much for coming on Good Golf Reporting. Appreciate it. Alright, still ahead, Democratic Governor Janet Mills of Maine will join us to weigh

in on the impact the trade war is having on her state and much more. Plus, we'll bring you the latest on the Maryland man who was mistakenly deported last month and why the Justice Department is now saying it's not required to bring him back home. Morning Joe will be right back. All right. Welcome back to Morning Joe at just about 10 minutes before the top of the hour. Today, President Trump is set to meet with the president of El Salvador at the White House. This comes as the Trump administration continues to send migrants that they accuse of crimes

to El Salvador's notorious mega prison. Over the weekend, Secretary of State Marco Rubio said the U.S. sent 10 more members of two gangs to El Salvador. We learned this group came from Guantanamo Bay, where the Trump administration had been holding some detainees. Rubio added that the alliance between Trump and El Salvador's president has, quote, become an example for security and prosperity in our hemisphere. Meanwhile, the Trump administration is now insisting it is not required to work with El Salvador's government in efforts to return Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the

Maryland man mistakenly deported last month. In a seven-page filing, DOJ lawmakers argued that the federal courts have no authority to direct the executive branch to conduct foreign relations in a particular way. They also argued that a Supreme Court ruling last week only requires federal officials to admit Abrego Garcia back into the country if he were to be released by the government of El Salvador. I'm thinking this can be worked out. Anybody here disagree? President Trump is weighing in on the case.

Here's what he said on Air Force One on Friday. If the Supreme Court said bring somebody back, I would do that. I respect the Supreme Court. I have great respect for the Supreme Court. So I'm not talking well first as to the specific case, but if they said to bring him back, I would tell them to bring him back. Abrego Garcia's attorneys argue he is in danger of being tortured or killed inside the prison. They have repeatedly asked the Trump administration to provide updates on his condition over the

weekend. DOJ officials responded that he is alive and secure. Cady K, I've got a lot of questions here. I just want to say every time we report on this as being a mistake, it's inferring that all the others are not mistakes. And there's been a lot of reporting on the other people who were flown to El Salvador and these videos made of them being chained and shaved, a lot of them were mistakenly deported and not given the due process that is due to people in their situation to have. They never got anything.

They were just disappeared. Yeah. I mean, unlike Joe, I'm not even a simple country lawyer, but the constitutional lawyers that I have spoken to have said that what they read into the Supreme Court's ruling on Garcia was an effort to try to put the brakes on the whole process, to make this a slower process and to implement due process so that nobody, the message seemed to be you can't deport anybody without due process. Now I guess Marco Rubio would say the people who had been sent to Guantanamo and then shipped

out to El Salvador, would they say that those people had already had their due process in the sending of them to Guantanamo? I think all of that is yet to be clarified. There's no doubt that if Donald Trump wanted to bring this person back, he would be on a plane with President Bukele at the moment flying from El Salvador to Washington, DC. That is totally feasible, totally doable. When Donald Trump says he listens to the Supreme Court, what he's listening to is that rather vague language

of the Supreme Court. Ali Vettali, host of Way Too Early, is here with me now. What's your reading of what the Trump administration is reading into the DOJ, given that the DOJ, sorry, given that the Supreme Court phrased this in this slightly sort of loose terminology. Was the Supreme Court giving the White House a window to say, okay, we'll carry on with our policies and we don't really have to

listen to what the Supreme Court is saying? What's clear is that the Supreme Court is trying to deal with the Trump administration without dealing with Trump. And the Department of Justice lawyers are seemingly happy to play in the loopholes. That's what we're watching them try to do in the case of Kilmar Abrego-Garcia, but also the way that they're continuing these deportations to El Salvador. The due process piece is important because that's supposed to be applied now going forward. So we'll see the ways in which the administration does or doesn't contend with that. But I think that this also speaks to the larger environment that Democrats are operating in. When they hear what Mika is

saying, which is that people are being disappeared without due process, they're not just talking about migrants who are in this country illegally or in some form of protected status. They're also talking about college students who are here on

visas who are being taken and detained and held. Certainly, we saw that with the Columbia University student, the Tufts University student, who They're also talking about college students who are here on visas who are being taken and detained and held. Certainly we saw that with the Columbia University student, the Tufts University student. But it all speaks to the pressure then that lawmakers are getting that this is a lawless, to use a word that Chuck Schumer used, administration, and that business can't be done as usual. That's why the grassroots had such an aghast reaction to the way that Schumer handled that government shutdown just a few weeks ago.

But the question is whether or not Democrats have learned to better read their base and learned better how to deal with this present moment. They're about to go into budget reconciliation fights. And when Schumer was on this program on Friday, I asked him, now that you think that the United States is in a constitutional crisis, does it change the way that you guys are going to operate on this next battle in Congress?

And his answer was, we need to fight. But there was no tangible difference with what that fight would look like. And when you see that the base is looking at this and saying, they're disappearing people off the streets, my God, do something different. Now it's up to Democrats to actually do that. Yeah, I mean, Jonathan, I guess the question is, how much are Americans en masse outraged at these deportations? What are the numbers showing us about where the public is on this? Well, the White House deliberately chose who they thought were, quote, unsavory characters.

There wouldn't be mass uprisings to protest and try to defend him. We should note President Trump, we heard them on Friday saying, well, we'll defer to the Supreme Court. Well, everything the administration has done since then saying no, basically saying, well, that's not our problem anymore. These people, including Mr. Rodrigo Garcia in the custody of El Salvador, we should know. The president actually landed last night at Joint Base Andrews, no sign of that man joining him. So, John Hyman, this seems to be the point, right? You and I have talked about this a lot

and you've been on this early that the White House wants this fight. They want the confrontation with the courts. They're having one right now with the Supreme Court. It seems like that they're not backing down. So, what next? that they're not backing down, so what next? Jonathan, that is the $64 million question. And I will say, this is not just about immigrants who are in this country illegally. This is not just about this case. This is not just about this El Salvador, the specifics of this case. As Justice Sotomayor noted last week, the Trump administration's claim legally is that

they can take anyone in the United States and disappear them to a foreign country, and that even if they acknowledge that that was an error of any kind, that they are powerless to bring that person back to the country. That's not just about Mr. Garcia. It's not just about illegal immigrants. It's not about criminal illegal immigrants. It's about everybody in the United States. Anybody is what their legal claim is.

Justice Sotomayor, as I said, made this very clear last week. That's the principle and the legal precedent that's at stake here, and it is setting up if there's anything... We may or may not be in a constitutional crisis already, but if the administration continues to queue to that line, we will be in an unequivocal constitutional crisis, and I think that day is very, very close at hand. Yeah, if not here. John Heilman, Ali Vitale, thank you both for your analysis and reporting. We're going to come back to this.