Morning Joe - Morning Joe 4/17/24

Episode Date: April 17, 2024

Seven jurors selected in Trump hush money trial

It's called legal expense. That's what you're supposed to call it. Mr. Trump, get it out of your mouth that nobody's ever seen it. Nobody has ever seen anything like it. So thank you very much for coming. I'm now going to sit down and talk for a million hours. As I've said, Donald Trump looks at the world differently than you and me. He wakes up in the morning in Mar-a-Lago thinking about himself, how he can help his billionaire friends gain power and control

and force their extremism on the rest of us. Listen to what he says. He says, quote, I'll be dictator on day one. Quote, I am your retribution. He promises, quote, a bloodbath if he loses. This guy denies January 6th. Listen, listen to what he says, because you know he means it. I wake every morning thinking about how to make life better like you do for working and middle class families here in Scranton and all across the country, where the power and the freedom rests

with you and we, the people. And that is a look at how the 2024 presidential campaign is likely to play out over the next several weeks. Donald Trump in court ranting about the criminal cases against him, while President Biden is on the campaign trail, taking his message to voters in key swing states. We'll have more about this stark contrast and bring you an update on Trump's criminal hush money trial playing out in New York City. Plus, the Republican led chaos continues on Capitol Hill. The threats to end Mike Johnson's speakership are growing as he prepares to bring multiple foreign aid bills to the House floor. We'll go through the latest drama on all of that. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Wednesday, April

17th. Along with Joe, Willie and me, we have the host of Way Too Early, White House Bureau Chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, member of the New York Times editorial board, Mara Gay, and conservative attorney George Conway is with us. And we begin this morning with Donald Trump's hush money criminal trial with now seven jurors seated, sworn in after a busy day in court yesterday. The jury is anonymous, so their names were not used in open court. But here's what we do know. The group so far is made up of four men and three women and include two attorneys, a salesman, an oncology nurse, an IT consultant, a teacher and a software engineer. Other potential jurors were dismissed throughout the day as the process continued into the afternoon.

Reporters in the court described Trump as being more alert, at times looking intently at potential jurors as they answered questions. Judge Juan Rashan believes the jury selection process will be completed this week and advise the jurors already seated to be ready for opening arguments to begin on Monday morning. The day ran so smoothly that Donald Trump claimed outside of court that the judge was rushing the trial. So we think we have a very conflicted, highly conflicted judge who should be on the case and he's rushing this trial. People say it. In all, 12 jurors and six alternates are needed. The trial will not be in session on Wednesdays.

So the process resumes tomorrow. So, George, George Conway, the pay seems to be going at a fairly quick clip. What are you seeing in there? What do you expect? Well, it is going faster than it seemed to at first. I mean, they started with a panel of 96 people. And I think the way that it was expedited, the way the judge really expedited it, is he just asked everybody up front, if you can't be impartial, raise your hand, essentially. And that got rid of probably about two thirds of the of the veneer of the of the pool.

And so they began focusing on the remaining 30 or so. And it was just done very, very efficiently. There was a questionnaire and they made each person get into the box and go through the questionnaire and answer questions. Yes, no. And explain if there were complicating factors. The judge would intervene a little if there was a question that came off that required a little elucidation. And then the lawyers got to get to ask some questions for a half an hour each of the first group. And they managed to come up with six people. And then they came up with a little more at the end of the day. And it was all very efficiently done. And I think it's going to speed up because each side gets 10 peremptory challenges, meaning they can just challenge for no reason without stating a reason.

And both sides have used six to strike jurors. So they only have four left no reason without stating a reason. And both sides have used six to strike jurors. So they only have four left. So there's a limit to what they can do. They need to pick 11 more jurors. Five will sit on the panel of 12, and then there'll be six alternates. So there's a pretty good chance. I think there's no reason why they can't get this done by Friday. Yeah, there were some concerns a couple of days ago about how slow this was going, but it really ramped up yesterday. And George, you were in the overflow room down at the courthouse yesterday. So you know that at one point during that jury selection,

the judge gave Donald Trump and his attorney a warning about Trump's behavior. It came after one potential juror was being questioned about her Facebook post after the 2020 election. Once she left the room, the judge admonished Trump, telling his lawyers, quote, your client was audibly uttering something. I will not tolerate that. I will not have any jurors intimidated in this courtroom. I want to make that crystal clear. That's the judge talking directly to Donald Trump and his lawyer. So, George, we knew about the histrionics a couple of days ago. Some more, it looks like there was yesterday inside that courtroom. How does that

play? How does that affect what's happening inside the courtroom? Well, again, it's great that the judge is clamping down on that early because his conduct in the courtroom is really it's very demonstrative and it's very emotional at times. And I don't, I actually don't think he has a complete ability to control himself. I think we saw that during the E. Jean Carroll trial. I think we're going to see it again. And I think it's important for the judge to give him warnings that he can't do that in front of the jury. But the fact is, to the extent he does that in front of the jury, it shows disrespect for the jury and doesn't necessarily help him. And that's one of the reasons why I think that he was hit with that $83.3 million verdict during the

second E. Jean Carroll trial, is he basically stood, he sat in front of the jury and just showed contempt for the entire process and contempt for the jury, which dovetailed nicely with the with the with what the what the other side was trying to prove, which was this is a bad guy who doesn't respect anybody and anything, including the law. Yeah, you know, Jonathan O'Meara, obviously, even covering Donald Trump a very long time, you understand that his lack of discipline is legendary. His ability to sit still, legendary. He wrote even in The Art of the Deal basically that he didn't have the discipline

to sit down and make plans for a day. He just kind of showed up in the office, answered phones, moved around, did things. Drudge puts it this way, Don in hell with a picture of Donald Trump inside the courtroom. And for anybody that knows him, reported on him, has been around him, the fact that this guy has to sit in a courtroom six, seven, eight hours a day. That's not good for him. Required to.

It's just something he's never done his entire life. Yeah, he has a legendary short attention span, ricocheting from one thought to the next, would always frustrate his business advisors and certainly his White House staff. He's been, best I can tell, disciplined only a handful of times in his life. Once famously in that last week or so of the 2016 election,

the one time he was convinced to stay off Twitter and he mostly stayed on message at his rallies. And we know that helped him win there in those last few days with an assist from FBI Director Comey. But that is certainly the exception rather than the rule. And he is indisciplined. And I was speaking to someone in Trump world last night who did acknowledge that, that the physical toll this is taking on Trump already. He's a couple of times now we've seen him close his eyes, potentially asleep, that he did, though he's been in courtrooms a lot in recent months. Most of those appearances relatively brief, an hour here, a couple hours there, lots of breaks.

He never had to be there for eight, nine hours at a time. And he's going to have to do that each and every day. Yes, he gets today off, but he'll be back tomorrow. He'll be back Friday. He'll be back Monday. And there is some concern in Trump world about the physical toll this will take on him. His campaign schedule already has to be curtailed inherently because of the time commitment to New York. But they also just wonder, will he be up for it? Will he be able to then, in his free moments, hit the road? He made a brief appearance at a local business yesterday. His aides are talking about having more New York City events.

There's a limit to how much he'll get politically out of those. He's scheduled to have a rally in North Carolina this weekend. But between the physical toll and the lack of money, and the need to be in the courthouse, Joe and Mika, this may be a dramatically smaller campaign than we're used to from Donald Trump. Yeah, you're right. The lack of money preventing him from doing so much. Joe and Mika, this may be a dramatically smaller campaign than we're used to from Donald Trump. Yeah, you're right. The lack of money preventing him from doing so much. But there's there's been a big difference between this time in the courtroom and past times, past times. Most of the time it was voluntary right here.

I mean, big difference between a voluntary appearance and an appearance where you are required to attend. And I will just say, yeah, anybody sitting six, seven, eight hours, you know me, if I were sitting somewhere for eight hours, I would be I would be falling asleep. I would be you can't even get through writing songs. Yeah, it's hard to do. And Mika lets me talk all the time to stay awake. So I can't imagine. You know what? What? I'm serious. What a physical call for anybody. This is where also it helps to have, you know, real firsthand knowledge of Donald Trump over the course of over a decade. And the guy has no attention span. We've seen it up front and how we've known people who've worked for him and they have to work around this sort of ADD mentality that he has and the need for attention, constant attention, making moments. And by the way, being in charge in whatever he sets up, every meeting, every everything. So he's in charge here. As you were saying yesterday, Mika, Mika went through a scene from the courtroom where Donald

Trump had to sit while they're going, OK, let's see here. OK, juror. We could go to page four. Look at clause. I don't think it's for a. I think it's, you know, we have to go back. Bring the other ones in. Hey, can you imagine Donald Trump sitting through that, like going crazy?

Going nuts. Because again, and I think, again, you put a lot of CEOs on that list sitting there for six, seven, eight hours. This is, why do I say all this? It's going, as Jonathan O'Meara said, the campaign's right. It's going to exact Jonathan O'Meara said, the campaign's right. It's going to exact a toll on him. I want to counter that with the rage that he might feel in this situation of not having control. Mara Gay, I think, you know, there's the other side of this and the concern some might have, many might have about the gag order being broken, sort of broken already many

times and people's number one lives being put in danger by what he says about them. But also, number two, ginning up anger. He walks outside of the courthouse and does these speeches. We don't take most of them at this point unless he says something of newsworthiness. And then going to this bodega and having hundreds of people wanting to meet him and using these moments covered by Fox News and other far right networks as sort of campaign events. I think there is some I think there is something to be said for what he can do with this. Your thoughts. Well, that's certainly a concern. And you saw yesterday that the judge recognized that concern in admonishing him and saying, I'm not going to have, you know, mumblings in my

courtroom that could intimidate potential jurors. So, you know, obviously that is a concern that's shared by many. I do agree with George. I think that his PR capabilities are going to be somewhat limited in New York City, or maybe it was John that mentioned that a moment ago. That's absolutely true. It's an ongoing concern because essentially he's like a caged animal and that's a dangerous situation. He's feeling very threatened. He's out of control. And so we do expect him to lash out. Anybody who has covered him over the past decade can expect that. But, you know, one of the things that I actually find really reassuring about the past couple of days is just how mundane and ordinary this trial

looks. I was actually called for jury duty in New York City last year, and it was much the same kind of process in a criminal trial. You know, at the end of the day, I was not, I ended up not serving, mostly because of the work that we do here. But, you know, it is reassuring that Donald Trump is no different than anybody else who would be called in this kind of a trial. And you know who else is having to sit there for eight, nine hours a day? These jurors whose lives have been interrupted. And, you know, that is part of the democratic process. And it is playing out so far exactly as it should, which isn't supposed to be fixated on some outcome, but on a fair trial in a free democracy that would be no different for anybody else.

And I also think that that really does give a little bit of gravitas to this case that has been in some quarters controversial, seen as maybe not as serious as the other trials. But the reality is, and I've covered trials here in New York, anybody who may have committed a crime should be held accountable for that crime. And we're seeing this play out. And I think it's reassuring. I think it's hopefully encouraging Americans and voters ultimately that our system still works, even for a former president. By the way, nice to see native New Yorker Donald Trump go to a bodega for the first time in his life yesterday. Yeah. So, guys, the other thing that we I think should underline, which we came in at the top of the show was there's Donald in the in the bodega was the contrast we saw, which is Donald Trump sitting inside a courtroom, which he's going to be doing for a large portion of this year, whether it's in New York, whether it's in Florida, maybe it's in Georgia, up in Washington. While the president of the United States, the man he's running against, is in a place like Scranton, Pennsylvania, talking about jobs, talking about the needs of people, talking about their lives and where he wants to take them in a second term. Don't underestimate the how that over time, what that looks like to a voter, which is this guy is

an alleged criminal sitting in court, many courts. And this is a guy who's out here campaigning for us in states that have to be won. And Donald Trump is right. He's not going to be in Pennsylvania or Wisconsin and Michigan as much as he should be. And there's a good way to avoid that, which is to not commit alleged crimes. Then you don't have to go in court for an entire year. Yeah, I mean, and the question that's been asked for some time is what would the impact of this trial be? What would the impact be if he were actually convicted of any of these felonies? We'll see. And good point also, very, very glad Maura Gay brought it up that just the appearance on Morning Joe will get you

stricken from any jury in the United States and limit you in many other ways as well. For instance, we're not allowed to buy kitchen appliances with whirling blades, lawn, lawn supply instruments as well. Lawnmowers. A lot of limitations. Can't have one. Coming up in one. Thank God I have the push mower for you to use. I know.

From my parents. Okay. It's old Michael Ducati. You're good at it. Yeah. No, it doesn't even have an engine. It's the one that. Yeah.

Exactly. Coming up in just one minute. The speaker during the campaign when I should be out campaigning. Mike Johnson gains momentum as another House Republican signs onto a motion to remove him from his post. We'll have the latest in the GOP drama on Capitol Hill. Plus, House Republicans deliver articles of impeachment against Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas to the Senate. We'll go over what to expect at his trial in the upper chamber later today. Morning Joe is back in 60 seconds. Beautiful live picture of sunrise in Washington, 618 in the morning. House Speaker Mike Johnson says he plans to bring the GOP-led

foreign aid package to the floor by the end of the week. The four bills, which include aid for Ukraine, Israel, Taiwan and Indo-Pacific allies, are garnering some support, but things are still fluid, to put it mildly. Some far right conservatives have voiced outright opposition to the measures. While rank and file Republicans are angry the package does not address the southern border. Johnson's saving grace, though, could be Democrats. He spoke to President Biden last night and congressional Democrats appear inclined to support the package as long as no Republican poison pills are included. There's no option off the table right now from procedural measures that bring

this directly to the floor to any votes that are options. If it delivers, as the vice chair said, if it delivers the four points that we are concerned about, then it should be something that is on the table. But Speaker Johnson's move to push forward with that foreign aid package could cost him his job. Republican Congressman Thomas Massey has announced his support for Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene's motion to oust the speaker. Massey said Johnson's actions on government funding, FISA and that foreign aid to Ukraine contributed to his decision. Meanwhile, on the other side of the aisle, some Democrats, including Congressman Jared Moskowitz of Florida, are saying they will try to stop the ouster to keep order in the lower chamber. Here's what Massey said yesterday, followed by the speaker's thoughts on what's happening right now on Capitol Hill.

Yes. Yeah, I asked him to resign. He said he would not. And then I said, well, you're the one who's going to put us into this because the motion is going to get called. OK, does anybody doubt that the motion will get called and then he's going to lose more votes than Kevin McCarthy? And I have told him this in private like weeks ago. I am not resigning. And it is it is, in my view, an absurd notion that someone would bring a vacate motion when we are simply here trying to do our jobs. We need steady leadership. We need steady hands at the wheel. Look, I regard myself as a wartime speaker that a couple of days ago on his social media that this is the hardest challenge that's faced a speaker probably in the history of the country.

In the moment that we're in right now, he said, may be comparable to the Civil War, but maybe worse. Maybe worse. So, Joe and Mika, you have, it's Thomas Massey and Marjorie Taylor Greene saying it out loud with the motion to vacate, but there are other Republicans unhappy with Speaker Johnson, maybe happy down the road to jump aboard this. But at the core of this is they don't want aid going to Ukraine, number one, and they want something done about the southern border. For those with short memories, let's remember that bipartisan package on the border was completed a couple of months ago. Now they had what they asked for. And when it came to their desk, they didn't want it. Because Donald Trump told them not to do it, by the way, for the Speaker, I'm glad Speaker's doing what he was running around the House floor trying to get Liz

Cheney and everybody else to overthrow the results of the election, which, of course, what he was doing, what Paxton was doing, what Trump was doing, what all of these people were doing led to a riot and the greatest challenge inside that Capitol dome since, you know, since the Civil War. So, I mean, but it's crazy. By the way, these guys that go, you know, I'm going to take down the speaker, one of 435. I know you're one of 435. And Mika, as you were saying yesterday, Democrats may be saying, hold our beer. Yeah, they might. Joining us now, congressional investigations reporter for The Washington Post, Jackie Elimini, with more on this and the drama unfolding and the state of foreign aid. Jackie, who are these Democrats and how might they save the day for the speaker? Yeah, Mika, this is the months long culmination of a struggle bus to get this funding that is now at this point in time considered more critical than ever by growing cohort cohorts of both

parties to get through. The question is whether or not Speaker Johnson is ultimately going to have the courage today to actually introduce the text of this four-part, $95 billion aid package, and whether or not Democrats are actually going to step up to the plate like they have increasingly been saying they're going to in order to help Mike Johnson get through and navigate these hardline GOP conservatives who essentially want to blow everything up and take Mike Johnson's job away from him, forcing a new speaker's fight for the second time in the past six months. But these Democrats are realists, essentially. People like you just showed, Jared Moskowitz, Josh Gottheimer, some of these more centrist, but even further than that, people who at this point, people like Dan Goldman, people who just want to see their workplace function in a time when our foreign allies are desperately waiting

on us and waiting for our support. As Speaker Johnson said yesterday, he considers himself a wartime speaker at this point in time. And I think that's what's driving his his desire to get this on the floor now, despite his personal opposition to funding Ukraine. You know, what's so fascinating, Jonathan O'Meara, is you're going if these bills do, in fact, go out one by one. You're going to have aid to Israel. I think a lot of Democrats, progressive Democrats that have traditionally been more pro-Palestinian than mainstream, most mainstream politicians in Washington, D.C. will vote against that aid. But the overwhelming amount of Republicans will vote for it. And then Ukraine, you've got Ukraine aid. You've got a lot of a lot of pro Putin, pro pro Russia, pro Trump Republicans that are in the back benches of the House who will vote against it. But you've got a lot of Democrats are going

to actually be voting for it. So you're going to actually have these cross currents that may lead to the passage of aid for Israel and Ukraine and, of course, Taiwan. Yeah, some unlikely coalitions. You're right about there's some progressive anger at Israel, some reluctance to vote for it, although that may be quelled slightly after the strikes from Iran over the weekend. But I think many will stick with their votes because of their anger about what's happening in Gaza. You're certainly right about Ukraine. There are votes there to pass this thing. It's a relatively small number of Republicans who oppose it, but they carry a lot of power. And we should be clear, the White House opposes this

measure to separate the bills. They still think they need to be combined. They fear that Ukraine will fall by the wayside if that does not occur. And they still want Johnson simply to bring the Senate bill to the floor. Jackie, first of all, compliments to use the phrase struggle bus. That's precisely what this is right now. I'm running out of ad descriptors. No, you nailed it. We all we all liked it here at the table. So let's just walk down the path a little bit here with Speaker Johnson and this effort to take away his power, to oust him from his position. If Democrats do come to his aid, doesn't that mortally wound him politically going forward? How does he raise money? How does he command the Republican caucus if he knows that, hey, you've been propped up by the other side? That said, to walk us through what that would look like. But then the other alternative is if he's is ousted or if he walks away from this,

what happens then to the House of Representatives? Who's in charge? Yeah, these are really difficult scenarios to play out. And I think that that some of the Republican dysfunction that we've seen has actually sort of overshadowed some of the growing chasms that are and fractures that are happening in the Democratic Party. That being said, Johnson is going to have a very hard time doing his job relying on Democrats. And I think that's been his reticence to bring this onto the floor and to push it through, knowing that it's not going to get through without the support of Democrats. How is he going to fundraise and be the top fundraiser really for the House GOP conference and the Republican Party on Capitol Hill when he's going to have to point to compromise,

something that is somewhat of a poison pill in this current environment? That being said, there are really not many alternatives here. And even hardline conservatives, people like Marjorie Taylor Greene and Thomas Massey, these are people that are angering their own colleagues and people who are consider themselves their their own allies. There's not a lot of backup plans here. At the end of the day, Johnson can say that that he is, you know, months before an important November election trying to maintain the majority for Republicans and trying to run a functioning Congress that isn't as historically unproductive and ineffective as the last Congress was. Yeah. And, you know, Willie, it seems to me, well, it seems that anybody that's paying close attention, even some of the hardcore Republicans have said, no, enough. We're not going to do this. After Massey stepped out, you had Jim Jordan telling reporters, no, no, no, we do not want to go there again. Other Republicans saying this is this is the last thing we need to do. And the first thing that Democrats want us to do is to look more chaotic.

Yeah. And where's the end of this? Right. We couldn't find anybody. If you're a Republican to fill the job for Kevin McCarthy, they landed on a relative unknown. And Speaker Mike Johnson, if you get rid of Speaker Mike Johnson, who comes next? You go through this all over again. And you have a group of Republicans who are now just saying the thing out loud as President Biden pushes for foreign aid to support allies in need. Congressman Garrett Graves said this. The reality is, is that you have to keep in mind, President Biden asked for Ukraine. President Biden asked for Israel, President Biden asked for Peikom or Taiwan, and President Biden supports the changes to TikTok. What are Republicans getting out of this? So, George Conway, that's the question that Congressman Graves there is asking. What's in it for us talking about aid to Ukraine? They want to

get something out of this deal, hold that aid as leverage, and don't think they get anything out of the United States, fulfilling an obligation to an ally. Yeah, well, they ought to be getting the ability to help the United States and its allies out of this, but they don't seem to care about that. They're just a nihilistic bunch who want to obstruct everything because for political purposes. And I don't I think Speaker I think Speaker Johnson, not much as I don't really particularly like him. I think he I think he has to do the right thing by the country and do the right which will be the right thing by himself. I think he needs to cut some deal with the Democrats where the Democrats will vote to table a motion to vacate in exchange for him putting some putting this stuff on the floor and getting

it getting it through one way or the other, whether it's four bills or one. And that's going to obviously hurt Speaker Johnson in some ways, but he'll at least survive to fight another day. And and it's and it's the best interest of the country. He knows that many, many, most Republicans, frankly, I think, know that. And certainly Democrats know that. And it's and it's the best interest of the country. He knows that many, many, most Republicans, frankly, I think, know that. And certainly Democrats know that. And there's just no reason why a nut job minority of a few handful of members should be allowed to block legislation that's in the best interest of the United States of America. Yeah. You know, these arguments, what what does it do for the United States of America? Always been short sighted. Donald Trump. what does it do for the United States of America? Always been short-sighted. Donald Trump, what does NATO do for America?

What do all of these post-World War... This guy was asking what it does for the Republicans. In post-World War II, you know, what have all of these international organizations done? Well, it's allowed the United States to grow at an unprecedented rate, be the most powerful military, the most powerful economy, the most powerful, you name it, in the world. This international structure where we don't have countries invading other sovereign countries in the heart of Europe, that's good for the United States. And also just just to be very direct, Jonathan, this investment continues to destroy what is the second strongest military in the world. And that is poorly as they have fought. That is the Russian military right now. You look at the number of of men that have been taken off the battlefield

for the Russians. You look at the fact that I think one third of their tanks, military vehicles have been destroyed. Not a single American has died. And yet tens, they've lost tens of billions of dollars of military equipment in Russia. And their military power has been compromised to a degree that it's going to take them a generation to recover. What do Republicans get out of it? Well, it's good for America. And I don't know, maybe they should be concerned about what's good for America instead of what's good for Vladimir Putin. And again, I still keep going back to what the head of the Intel Committee and the Republican head of the Intel Committee and the Republican head of the Foreign Affairs Committee said, which is a lot of Republicans in our own conference that have swallowed whole and are spitting out

Vladimir Putin's propaganda. Yeah, repeating Putin's propaganda because they think that's what Donald Trump wants as the leader of their party. And certainly, Joe, the return on investment here for the United States has been extraordinary. I won't repeat what you just said, but the Russian military, though it has a little momentum right now in Ukraine, but on the whole it's been badly degraded because of the U.S.'s funding, with the help from European allies, enabling Ukraine to really strike at the heart of the Russian military and damage it severely. And also, we've started hearing from Speaker Johnson in recent days a talking point the White House has been using for months. A lot of this investment is actually going to American companies. They're backfilling American arms manufacturers.

That's going to happen here at home. There's an economic benefit here for this funding. It's not just going to go drop into Kiev. It's going to be here in the United States in order to supply Ukraine. That's really important as well. And a talking point they should perhaps use for their constituents. Frankly, some of those arms manufacturers are housed in red states. So, Mara, but let's talk about the big picture here right now as the world watches and with great unease about how the United States can't be counted upon like it used to be. This dysfunction in the House of Representatives where we might lose a speaker again or come out with one who's paralyzed and can't do much of anything. And there's still a path. Even though there's a little bit of momentum right now, we should be clear, this is not a done deal that these bills are going to get through. And if they don't,

and the U.S. fails to meet its commitment to Ukraine, what does that say to the rest of the world, particularly with the possibility of another Trump presidency looming? Well, I think lots of Europeans, some of whom are friends of mine, are deeply concerned. And that's not just in Europe. So that is an ongoing concern. I mean, the uncertainty of what would happen if Trump were to return to the White House is something that leaders around the world, Democratic and not, are closely watching. And so our enemies are also watching and are chomping at the bit to see this kind of uncertainty and unrest.

But I think going back to the reason for this shifting policy is almost more disturbing. It's not as though there is some coalition of new thinking about what's best for America in foreign policy. What's actually happening is what we just witnessed, which is a cohort of Republicans in power in the House saying, well, what's best for Republicans, not what's best for America? And I guess I wonder at this moment if they're going to pay any political price for that. Is this something that the Biden campaign can splice and turn into an ad? Or is this just Washington insider baseball? I don't know. I don't think there are a lot of Americans who would appreciate this kind of dysfunction at the cost of U.S. foreign policy.

So given that, Jackie Alimany, what will you be looking for today in your coverage? Well, there's two things primarily. We're going to wait and see if Mike Johnson ultimately decides to push this $95 billion aid package through. He's running out of time because of the 72-hour rule, which requires 72 hours of internal debate over it, meaning that this would get to the House floor for a vote on a Saturday. And Mike Johnson is unfortunately going to lose one more Republican member. That's Mike Gallagher, who's retiring on Friday, meaning that in terms of a worst case scenario for him, where a motion to vacate is actually brought to the floor and Marjorie Taylor Greene gets more than just Thomas Massey. It will only

require one more Republican to support that in order for that to be discharged and a simple majority for then that to actually oust Speaker Johnson. But on the other side of Capitol Hill today, there's also a little thing called the Senate impeachment trial, perhaps one of the lowest profile impeachment trials that we've seen in history, perhaps because of the lack of substance in these two articles of impeachment that even Republicans in the Senate have previously decried in terms of what they actually outline in charges against DHS Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas. That being said, they're calling for a trial nevertheless because they're calling on Democrats to adhere to precedent and saying that, you know, there's never been an impeachment trial that

hasn't actually gone to trial in the Senate, regardless of the merits of the arguments. So that's starting at 1 p.m. today. And we'll see how long that goes on for and whether super conservative Republicans in the Senate decide to have their their own little revolt over a lack of a border policy. You know, Mika, with all this going on the House side and the Senate side, there's no doubt Jackie's going to be riding the struggle bus. I know. OK. The Washington Post, Jackie Alamey. I know. Okay. The Washington Post Jackie Alame. I just knew that was coming. Thank you very much.

Yeah, she's been on it. Attorney George Conway. Thank you as well. I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot of you with everything that's going on. And before we go to break, some sad news. Yeah, just a great guy. Former Florida governor and U.S. Senator Bob Graham has passed away. The moderate Democrat passed away yesterday at the age of 87.

Graham was among the relatively few Democrats elected to be governor of Florida. He left office as one of the state's most popular politicians with an 83 percent voter approval rating. He then went on to serve three terms in the U.S. Senate and gained national prominence as chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee in the aftermath of the 2001 terrorist attacks and was an early critic of the Iraq war. Bob Graham retired in 2005 after serving nearly four decades in public office. And, you know, he was in, you know, from the 70s on, there weren't a whole lot of Democrats, he and Lawton Childs, that got elected as governor. But the reason why is he just he had the common touch. He would bag groceries at Publix one day. He would go to, you know, U.S. Air the next day and he'd do bags.

He had these work days that he did throughout his career, whether it was as a state senator or as governor or as a U.S. senator. And he really connected on such level. And I will say, when I first got to Washington, I got a call from him, which was a big deal for one of 435 to get a call from one of the two senators and said, hey, I'd love to meet you sometime, Congressman. I said, Senator Graham, anytime, where would you like to meet? He goes, I'll do it. I'll just walk on over. Walked over to the office, I think my second day there.

Oh, my gosh. Just, again, the office. I think my second day there. Oh, my gosh. Just again, just came in, said, I'm here. Tell me what you need. I hope you presented well. Democratic senator, a Republican. I, of course, you know, I got my breakfast on my jacket, but I know that I somehow managed to get by. Good. That's a very great story. Just a wonderful, loving, loving man. And our thoughts are with Gwen and the rest of the Graham family. Absolutely. Coming up, we're going to show you more of President Biden's visit to his hometown of Scranton, Pennsylvania, where he called out Donald Trump by name several times. Also ahead, Carrie Lake's alarming rhetoric on the campaign trail. The Republican Senate candidate in Arizona suggested that her supporters arm themselves.

I wonder how that plays with swing voters. November's election. Really? Really, Carrie Lake? Morning Joe is coming right back. Arizona candidate Carrie Lake suggested to reporters they might want to arm themselves in the run up to the fall election to supporters, I should say. She made the comments at a campaign rally on Sunday. The next six months is going to be intense and we need to strap on our uh let's see what do we want to strap on we're going to strap on our our seat belt we're going to put on our helmet or your carry late ball cap we are going to put on the armor of God. Then maybe strap on a Glock on the side of us just in case. You can put one here and one in the back or one in the front, whatever you guys decide,

because we're not going to be the victims of crime. We're not going to have our Second Amendment taken away. We're certainly not going to have our First Amendment taken away by these tyrants. Not great audio there. If you couldn't hear it, she said she wanted to put on a seatbelt, put on the armor of God and yes, a Glock on her hip and then got into some comments about the Second Amendment. Meanwhile, Republican Senator Tom Cotton of Arkansas is doubling down on his comments. We told you about these yesterday, where he urged citizens to, quote, forcibly remove pro-Palestinian protesters blocking traffic on major bridges and roads across the country this week. Cotton told people to, quote, take matters into their own hands against demonstrators and to confront them with the use of physical force.

Here is Senator Cotton doubling down on that stance to NBC News. Vigilantes are blocking traffic in the streets when moms are trying to get kids to school or people trying to go to the hospital or just trying to get to work. Should be removed from the streets. Yes, I said that. I posted it. I would say it again today and I would do it myself if I found myself in that situation. But you said people should take matters into their own hands. Can you just clarify what that means? Because some people think it could call for violence. It calls for getting out of your car and forcibly removing

pro-Hamas vigilantes who are blocking the streets on major highways so traffic can continue. Senator Cotton maintains he's not calling for violence against the protesters, but did share a video on Twitter showing a group of men dragging protesters off the road with the senator captioning, quote, how it should be done. So, Joe and Mika, we talked about this yesterday. Senator Cotton says he does not want you to go and use violence against the protesters. We also talked about yesterday how annoying it is. And we think probably an ineffective way of winning hearts and minds to lock down roads and prevent people from getting where they're going. But that's separate from what the senator is saying here. Well, yeah. And of

course, he went down the list of things that we said make us angry when idiots go out and decide they're going to protest by blocking roads, stopping people from getting their children to school or people maybe taking their elderly parents to a hospital. It is just so dangerous and, again, counterproductive for any cause. Anybody that does that, I'm against your cause. Just, you know, I think that's how most motorists would agree with it. But really, he can't really step out of the fact that he was talking about ripping the skin off of people's hands. He was talking about throwing people off the Golden Gate Bridge.

I mean, this happened on the Golden Gate Bridge. Well, Arksel would throw him over the bridge. That's where they need to do that. And so you have, again, him talking about violence. And you just ask yourself, why does a politician think that's the road to popularity? Kerry Lake talks about the armor of God and carrying a Glock for some reason with that audience carrying a Glock gets a bigger cheer than the armor of God. I think back when I was running, uh, at least for people, uh, in, in most audiences, armor of God would probably do better than strapping on a Glock. Cause if you say that, people go, what, what's wrong with him? I mean, and, and it goes again, the audience cheering about cheering for that, you know, reminds me of Donald Trump and audiences gleefully talking about a man in his 80s being awakened from sleep and nearly being bludgeoned to death by a hammer. They still celebrate. And I say they, not just Donald Trump. You can always say, oh, how sick Donald Trump is. Look at the audience. The audience is cheering. They're laughing that a man in his 80s got bludgeoned almost to the point of death by a guy that went in, you know, screaming, you know, the MAGA chant.

Where's Nancy? Where's Nancy? So this is again, this is just, again, the glorification of violence. And the big question is. Why, why does this glorification of violence sell so well in Donald Trump's Republican Party? It's it's it's it's sick. It's sad. It's un-American. It's scary. And and Willie, once again, we we have to look at this for what it is or what it appears to be like. And it's almost cult-like behavior, mimicking him, taking on his positions, even if some of them are evil and cruel and violent. Yeah, everyone's doing sort of a poor man's version of Donald Trump at these campaign rallies. I think that's what you saw from Carrie Lake at that rally. And to Joe's point, it was almost like she didn't get the response she wanted by saying armor of God.

So she said, I better throw the Glock into the conversation. And she did. And Senator Tom Cotton obviously is taking cues from Donald Trump, too. They know what works with their base and they're going to keep pushing on that. And when people in the media call them out and question it, there's some value for them with that base to double down on it. So that's part of what we saw yesterday. Joining us now, professor at Princeton University, New York Times bestselling author, Eddie Glaude Jr. He's the author of the new book titled We Are the Leaders We Have Been Looking for. Eddie, we are so excited about your book. We're going to talk a bunch about it today. Had a great conversation around it yesterday. But just your reaction to those two clips we just heard here and what it says about the political climate that we've lived in now for the last, call it a decade or so. Right. We all we always need to remember that the specter of violence is present when it comes to our politics, particularly in this moment when we're so divided.

But what's so interesting about Tom Cotton, for example, is that, you know, he didn't say the same thing about the insurrectionist on January 6th. He wasn't talking about forcibly removing or pulling the skin off of folks who actually attacked the Capitol, right? So we do know that there are certain folk in Tom Cotton's mind who have the right to protest and other folk who just simply need to shut up and sit and be grateful that they're in the country. So we need to understand where he is and where Kerry Lake is and understand that the specter of violence is in some ways the shadow, the cloud over our politics in this moment, and people need to be well aware of that. So we want to turn to your book, Eddie.

Yesterday on the first day of your Morning Joe book residency, you called on everyday Americans to take control of democracy instead of expecting heroes and prophets to manage it themselves. But as you write in Chapter two of the book, you had to come to that realization yourself with regards to one of your own heroes, Malcolm X. We want freedom by any means necessary. We want justice by any means necessary. We want equality by any means necessary. and supposedly the leader of the free world, we don't think that we should have to sit around and wait for some segregationist congressmen and senators and a president from Texas in Washington, D.C. to make up their mind that our people are due now

some degree of civil rights. No, we want it now, or we don't think anybody should have it. So very prescient in these times, Mara Gay. It really does. If you care about democracy, you cannot sit back during these times we're in right now. Wow. I mean, watching Malcolm X, it's it's captivating. But, you know, I have the pleasure of reading Eddie's book and actually interviewing him about it the other day at a local bookstore here in New York City.

And one of the things that I really love about the book is it talks about the other tradition of black American activism and democracy, democratization, which is much more about grassroots change versus just a focus, um, allowing them to kind of do the bidding of others. And so, you know, really the, the woman who I'm thinking of this morning, I'm actually not thinking of Malcolm X, I'm thinking of Ella Baker who founded the student arm of the movement known as SNCC. Um, and you know, she said famously, uh, strong people don't need strong leaders. Right. And so Eddie's book really gets at that. And I just wanted to know, Eddie, if you could talk a little bit for us about the role of black politics in this time of Trumpism. What do Americans need to know about its contribution

to democracy? Well, I think it's really important for us to understand that everyday ordinary folk, no matter what community you're in, right, that we need to take responsibility for our democracy. And that means we need to engage in the political process, this election very, very directly. We need to turn out in massive numbers and we need to hold each other accountable for, in some ways, making a new America possible. So what I'm trying to do in this book is get my way to make my way to that insight, right, from a different kind of pathway. And that is through my own kind of effort to find my own political voice in some way. So certainly an influential figure for you would be your parents and particularly your father, who you write about in this book,

Eddie. And congratulations. We're so happy for you and excited to read it who you write about in this book, Eddie. And congratulations. We're so happy for you and excited to read it. Tell us about that relationship and how that helped shape so you found your voice. Yeah. I begin Chapter 2 with a very difficult experience. I was playing hopscotch with a young woman down the street when I was in elementary school. And I was playing with her because I thought she was so cute. And I wanted to mess up.

I was messing up, you know, stepping on all the lines as it were because I wanted her to show it to me over and over and over again. And I hear my dad scream for me to come down. And then I came into the house and he asked me this question, what are you, a fag or something? In front of my uncle. And, you know, it was this kind of moment in which I was just a young man, young child, really. My sexuality was questioned by the most responsible man I've ever known. I am my father's child. I look just like him.

He is the most responsible person. He put all of the discipline I could imagine that I have in me, but he scared the shit out of me. He could just look at me and I could cry. And so I had to figure out, or I had to deal with something in my gut, and that is that I felt like I was a coward because he scared me so. And so I found myself reaching for heroes, and Malcolm became mine. So that's why I have my goatee still. Wow. Wow.

So let me ask you, Eddie. Sure. And I want people to hear me. Let those with ears hear. I'm not comparing these two next two men I'm talking about. You've got an extraordinary message. But look at who we elected president from 2008 to 2020. You had in Barack Obama a guy who was like a superstar.

I remember driving past places and seeing pop art, almost like Warhol art. And you had people talking about like this guy was a second coming of Christ. He was called Black Jesus. He was elevated to such a high degree that there were times that his own wife was like, come on, guys, calm down. His feet smell. Just stop it. Right? Right.

They were definitely in on the joke. But for Americans, for some reason, this guy was elevated to black Jesus status. They needed that. That's what they call them inside the campaign. And then just the mirror image of that. We then have Americans racing another part of Americans racing to this pop figure. And we've gone from we go from pop art to now something that I think is genuinely unhealthy for Republicans, Democrats or whatever. Like a politician becoming their identity, flying flags, screaming out things. I mean, just constantly. And in both cases, you had Americans. They needed a big leader, a big leader on the left, a big leader on the right. When they weren't looking to themselves, they weren't looking to their communities. They

weren't looking to their people. They needed a political savior. And as you and I both know, that doesn't work. You know, Joe, you hit it right on the head. You know, we are always looking for either John Wayne or Marvel Comics superhero. And we think that John Wayne has a kind of mozzie that we don't have. I'm dating myself, I suppose, or the more Marvel comic, you know, you know, they have these superhero powers, some spider radioactive spider bit someone. Right. That's the only way that you know, they have these superhero powers, some spider, radioactive spider bit someone, right? That that's the only way that you could be heroic. I think that's just wrong. You know, Ralph Waldo Emerson said that great people come to us to make even greater

people possible. They exemplify what we're capable of. And one of the things I had to do with Malcolm is to understand that I lost myself in my imitation of him. I had to understand the way in which he was kind of searching. Imani Perry, when we were reading Manning Marble's Pulitzer Prize winning biography together, and she said when you when he left the nation, he was flailing and failing about. He was a wounded witness. And what does that mean for me? It brings Malcolm just like Dr. King yesterday. It brings him down to the ground as an example. And so the journey I've made with my father, this man who loved me to death, he loved me hard. Oh, my God. And I know you're watching, Daddy. And I know you feel getting better. And I want you to get better. And I want you to know that I love you more than beyond numbers, man, that you've made me who I am. Right. That's what you see. I look just like him. Right. That's why I'm a junior.

And so this I had to understand that Malcolm is an exemplification of what I can be. Not someone for me to be, you know, to bow down to. So we don't need a Barack Obama to be black Jesus. We don't need a Donald Trump, right, to save the country. We need each other. That's the only way America can step into a new way of being, Joe, in my view. And I'm arguing that in the book. Eddie, it sounds like a message that could motivate a lot of voters who are feeling pretty disaffected right now. Do you think that's something that the Democrats should pay closer attention to instead of acting as saviors or trying to? Yeah, you know, we need to stop.

The political parties need to stop treating everyday Americans as cattle chewing cud to her to the polls every two and four years. And Americans, we need to stop allowing ourselves to be treated that way. We need to become better people. When we become better people, we'll send better allowing ourselves to be treated that way. We need to become better people. When we become better people, we'll send better people to Washington, D.C. All right. All right. Eddie Glaude, Jr., thank you so much.

The new book, We Are the Leaders We Have Been Looking For, is on sale now. And Eddie will continue his Morning Joe book residency tomorrow right here. And Mara Gay, thank you as well. We really appreciate it.