Morning Joe - Morning Joe 4/20/23

Episode Date: April 20, 2023

Fox’s defiant statement on Smartmatic lawsuit

So, Fox News is out a whole lot of money, but they're not telling their viewers any of that, and they don't have to, because this settlement does not force them to own up to the damage they did to our country or apologize on their network. So, we feel the same way. So we've decided to make them apologize on our network. Jim? apologize on our network. Jim, before we go tonight, we want to say we're sorry to Dominion and to the American people. We here at Fox News lied to you about the 2020 election repeatedly and consistently. We admit that we are guilty of amplifying those voices. Insane people like this guy. Hello, I'm Mike Lindell. A guy like this is given a platform because we want to make sure when you're watching Fox News

and we'll make you dumber. My original my slippers are back in stock. Please take us off television before we allow these crooks to turn our country into dumps, big, massive dumps. Massive dump. We've done our part. I want to know what the context of that is probably a big, massive dump. Close. What was what was what was Trump talking? No, that's what I'm curious about. Keep it right here.

That's probably as close as we'll ever get to an apology from Fox News. In fact, the network just put out a defiant statement on another defamation lawsuit it is facing for airing false claims about election fraud. We'll have much more on that in just a moment. Plus, the Supreme Court delays a decision on the abortion pill. We'll take you through what's next in the very consequential case. Plus, more brazen acts of gun violence in America, this time in Maine. A man just released from prison went on a deadly shooting spree. And for the third time in a week, at least, a simple mistake led to a shooting, this time in Texas, where a cheerleader is in the ICU after a man opened fire on her and her friends when they approached the wrong car, the wrong house, the wrong car. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Thursday,

April 20th. Along with Joe, Willie and me, we have the host of way too early White House bureau chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire. We have former U.S. attorney now an MSNBC legal analyst, Joyce Vance, and the host of MSNBC's Inside with Jen Psaki. Jen Psaki, she's former White House press secretary. Great group. Just a huge lot to get to a huge show. A lot of news. It's just massive. So, by the way. Yeah. Willie, I don't know if you saw, but I mean, look, Mika, just all over Twitter.

Why? No, I'm not. No. I retweeted some of your tweets from Poland. I know. It's great. You were trending, but you're all over Twitter, and Twitter is all over you. Well, I think I know what you're talking about.

Well, let me just say, does Willie know what I'm talking about? The $12 tank top she's wearing right now. Oh, what do you call it? Cammy? I give you a little personal of a word. Yeah. $12. That's true. $12 tank top on Twitter. I think it was less than $12. You purchased it on Twitter or they're talking about it on Twitter? I made a purchase on Twitter and I'm worried that all my information is like going to the Chinese, but you know what? I got the greatest deal. You can get great deals. Where'd you pick that up? Just for our viewers. I mean, you're not a paid spokesperson, but

it might be worth sharing. I don't remember. I don't remember, but they were like the right thing and they showed up and it was the right Kami. So you shouldn't talk about Kami. Something here's Willie. She just, the things that will come in from instagram it'll be like what's that and she'll go like that's a seven dollar and 95 uh cent tire for your car i mean i got it on insta by the way speaking of great deals we noticed in that colbert clip coming up john and i noticed that mr pillow's now selling a cozy slipper yeah well. I think that's very exciting. The brand is expanding. Those are soon to be called the Dominion slippers coming up pretty shortly. But get them while you can. I know, but they do look so comfortable. For some reason,

I never have slippers, but I'm all about a good pair of slippers. So if Mr. Pillow's making slippers, listen, I can do two things at once. I can be comfortable walking around my house, and I can undermine American democracy. Oh my God. Two things at once. Not me buying Mr. Pillow's.

As the old Reese's Cup commercials go, I hope he didn't make these. Two great tastes, they go great together. Exactly. All right, let's just get to our top story. Fox News doubling down on its defense that airing false claims about election fraud were, quote, newsworthy. It comes in a response to a defamation lawsuit from Smartmatic, the voting software company is suing Fox for $2.7 billion in damages, accusing the network of spreading false claims that the company helped rig the 2020 election for Joe Biden. Here are just a few examples.

We now have reams and reams of actual documents from Smartmatic and Dominion, including evidence that they planned and executed all of this. The president's lawyers alleging a company called Dominion, which they say started in Venezuela with Cuban money and with the assistance of Smartmatic software, a backdoor is capable of flipping votes. They were being notified by Smartmatic in Frankfurt that Biden was way behind and they better come up with a lot more ballots and we can prove every single thing I just said. Whoa.

Wait, Frankfurt is Frankfurt. What is Frankfurt in Venezuela now or Germany? Well, you look at these people and you just look at the entire situation. And a lot of those people that are talking there, most likely, if you just look at where all of this is going, they're going to end up bankrupt, disbarred, destroyed simply because they followed Donald Trump's orders after the 2020 election about lying about American democracy. Again, gravity returns. There is a price to the lies. A lot of those people talking there, you know, they're not they're not going to be protected by Fox News. They're going to be out there on their own. And I would be shocked if they didn't have to declare bankruptcy.

Well, you're right. I mean, we just saw the judgment for Dominion against Fox News. Dominion is also suing Sidney Powell, the first person we saw in that clip, and Rudy Giuliani, the last person we saw in that clip. And we saw how that went for Fox. So I think you're absolutely right about that. Another point to make, Rudy Giuliani ended that comment by saying we have the evidence to prove it. Well, when given the chance to prove it in a court of law, he refused. He would make these claims on TV and then they'd say, OK, what's the charge? Well, I'm not actually alleging anything and wouldn't even bring it to trial in a courtroom. So these were easy, cheap things to say on TV to get people riled up. But when the rubber met the road, when push came to shove, these people would not defend these arguments in the court of law.

And now they're paying the price for it. Meanwhile, guys, Fox remains sort of full of bravado and defiant, despite what just happened with Dominion yesterday. Fox News put out a statement reading this way, quote, We will be ready to defend this case surrounding extremely newsworthy events when it goes to trial. Talking about the Smartmatic case, likely in 2025. As a report prepared by our financial expert shows, Smartmatic's damages claims are implausible, disconnected from reality, and on its face intended to chill First Amendment freedoms, end quote. The network used similar language regarding the Dominion suit, which, as we said, Fox settled on Tuesday for seven hundred eighty seven million dollars. After that settlement was announced, Smartmatic's attorney released a statement writing in part

Dominion's litigation exposed some of the misconduct and damage caused by Fox's disinformation campaign. Smartmatic will expose the rest. Joe, you might expect maybe a sliver of humility after the judgment against Fox, but now really coming out strongly and saying we will fight this smartmatic thing to the end. And they think they're in the right here, despite the clip we just played. You just wonder what the board members are thinking. You wonder what shareholders are thinking. This is disastrous. And Joyce, I want to go to you and let's just remove this from Fox News. Let's even remove this from being about people lying about elections and trying to overthrow elections.

Let's just talk about basic negotiating strategy. You could, as I said, I often quote my torts professor from my first year, Professor Pearson, who said you should have seen that coming like a freight train out of the mist, slow motion coming right at you. This has all been so predictable. They had no case. They were never going to let Rupert Murdoch or Tucker Carlson testify on the stand. They were always going to settle, but they let all the damage be done to their hosts, to their company brand. Then they still had to pay about $800 million. And so you just sit there wondering how, how is this handled so badly? Now we get to Smartmatic

and if I'm the lawyer for Smartmatic, and by the way, I said this yesterday, Joyce, we were over, Steve Ratner, Ari Emanuel, myself and others were over to commemorate the 80th anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising. And after a really moving event, at night we were at dinner, we're talking about a lot of things, this came up, and we all to a person said, oh, this will never go to the jury. They'll settle. And the three of us around the table all said it's going to settle somewhere between 700 and 800 million dollars. And I say that just to say not that we're smart. Every lawyer in America knew that's where this was going to go. That's ever, ever been in litigation. So here's the

thing now, Joyce. They've proven they're willing to pay $800 million, did not have their brand completely destroyed by having their hosts get up on stand, get cross-examined and be destroyed reputationally. They're not going to let Rupert Murdoch get on the stand and they've been, they're willing to pay 800. You know where I'm going. So now if I'm the lawyer for Smartmatic, I'm just sitting back and say, listen, here's the deal. You've already paid $800 million. We're going to require more. You're going to have to give us $1.2, maybe $1.5 billion, or else you've already wasted $800 million. And that $800 million is going to go up in smoke because we're still going to get all of your hosts and Rupert Murdoch up on the stand.

This doesn't change anything. They've only delayed even more pain. So the question, of course, is why six months ago didn't the lawyers sit down and say, okay, we're going to do a universal settlement. But smart, Matic and Dominion, you guys go in that room. You figure out how much we need to pay both of you to make this go away. And if you don't come up with a number, we're going to go.

We'll destroy the company before we settle with you. They would have been able to get a settlement then. But now they've just delayed it. They're going to get hit again with another 800, 900 get a settlement then. But now they've just delayed it. They're going to get hit again with another eight hundred, nine hundred, a billion dollars. And you just sit here wondering who who's in charge of legal strategy over there? You know, your global settlement proposal would have been an awfully smart approach, because from the point that Fox puts Rupert Murdoch up for a deposition, nothing good can happen in this case. And really the only issue is how much Fox has to pay to make

it go away and to make the pain stop with the drip, drip, drip of internal information. So I read Smartmatic lawyers and the company's statement yesterday where they talked about what they would do would be they would complete the job that Dominion did. That's their opening bid in these damage negotiations. And again, the only issue is how much money will Fox end up paying? It seems like a difficult strategy for a company that really had no legal defenses. The judge, you'll recall, had already ruled that the jury didn't have to even consider whether Fox was lying to its viewers. The judge decided as a matter of law that that was

the case. The only real question left open was whether Fox knew or recklessly disregarded the truth. And the evidence got worse and worse in that regard in the days approaching trial. As you say, Smartmatic is now the beneficiary of all of that evidence. And it seems very unlikely that we'll ever see any trials take place in this matter. You know, and really, the thing is, maybe Fox is thinking the judge is better, the jurisdiction is better. I don't really think it is. You still have unlimited punitive damages, I believe, in New York state. So maybe they draw a better judge. But the facts are still so damning. They'll still lose in the end a defamation suit. You've got all the internal texts and email

messages, which, you know, it's like that's how big tobacco was taken down. That's how the huge pharmaceutical companies get taken down, because you have all the admissions in texts and emails. And that's that's what's happened here. So what I'm talking about as far as this global settlement that they should have done six months ago, I mean, that's not an original idea. Every legal counsel for every business in America would have approached it this way. So again, the question is, what's the board thinking? What are the shareholders thinking? Like this strategy? And I got to ask, what are the Fox News hosts thinking? Wait, you got all of our text out there. You just paid eight hundred million dollars and we're still not out of the woods yet. We've got another. We're going to have more depositions, more interrogatories, more discovery, more news. Who's running this place is what they have to be asking themselves, because things haven't

gotten better for Fox over the past two days. Their exposure hasn't been lessened, although they're more exposed today than ever before, because they just showed they were willing to pay almost 800 million dollars to not have their hosts and rupert murdoch testified that will not change with smartmatic it's not like they said okay we're going to be fine with no smartmatic knows this and i just got again asked what the hell are the people who are running fox news thinking and the question will be does fox news does news corp learn from what just happened with Dominion, which is to say, as you point out, they went through the worst part of it. Everything got spilled out into the public. Everything was

exposed. The lies, the fact that many of their hosts and executives didn't believe a word of what they were telling their audience, but they were trying to appease the audience with the conspiracy theories that all spilled out. And then they still had to pay they settled in the end so i guess the question joyce is do they look at that and go okay this time we don't want to put ourselves through that we don't put our network through that we don't put our hosts through that let's cut a check it's going to hurt but let's cut a check to smartmatic who by the way is suing for a billion more dollars than dominion was suing for so that number could be astronomical in a settlement. Well, it could be.

And look, the risk any time you go to trial in a case like this is this risk of punitive damages. We get a number from these folks when they sue. That's their compensatory damages. That's the business loss that they say that they can prove. But the jury is entitled to also impose damages that are purely punishment for perceived misbehavior. Fox looks like a pretty good candidate for punitive damages in this case with the right jury. And that has to be part of their calculus.

But you saw the important information in the statement that they released. They expect Smartmatic to go to trial in 2025. And that's a ways off. I don't think that they'll rush to settle this case while they can let the clock run out on that. So, Jonathan Lemire, there's the larger question. You wrote an entire book about this, about the lie that's been perpetuated, that's been fed to the audience at Fox News. And the audience now isn't hearing much about what happened with Dominion, is not hearing about all this discovery that shows, oh, the anchors were telling you a story that they themselves didn't even believe.

The record hasn't been corrected, at least for that audience. No, it hasn't. There was a very when the news was announced of the settlement, the Fox News media reporter briefly addressed it on air. But there's been very little else since. We know myself and colleagues who have been to Trump rallies or Republican gatherings over the last six months, eight months, they had no idea this was even happening because they're getting their news from that silo. They're getting that news from Fox or other conservative media outlets, and there's no discussion of this case. And in fact, there is seemingly a calculation that Fox News is being defiant in part because if they admit to culpability, if they admit to wrongdoing to their audience, they might lose some of that audience, which is what we saw in the immediate aftermath of the 2020 election, is that they did lose because they weren't being pro-Trump enough. They lost some of their viewership to OAN, to Newsmax, et cetera. And I think there is a real, they fear a risk of doing that again. And obviously, if they would like to have their

hosts be spared having to appear before trial, they'd like to have their hosts be spared having to appear before trial. They'd like to have Rupert Murdoch spared before having to appear in a courtroom. But at least for now, they're doubling down. They're staying down. And they've re-embraced Donald Trump, who is still telling the lie night after night, either on Truth Social or at rallies, that he still won 2020 election. They have not disengaged themselves from it at all. So Jonathan, I'm really curious. Maybe you and I should start an alternative reality Boston Red Sox network. And by the way, today we would be showing clips from Kluber's one hitter last night against the Twins and the grand slams by Cassis and, you know, Kike.

And by the way, Kike's average on this network could be like 475, right? Yeah, 300 points higher than it really is. No, what do you think? You like that idea? Yeah, I mean, look, we can have a little silo for ourselves and our fellow members of Red Sox Nation where, you know, we look like a competent major league team. Yeah, I like that. Meanwhile, other than the massive payout, it appears there were no other requirements for Fox News and its settlement with Dominion, most notably an on-air apology and acknowledgement from the network's hosts who aired false claims about election fraud. Yesterday, CNN's Jake Tabber pressed Dominion CEO on why that was not part of the deal. It's Fox viewers believe these lies.

Why not get them to acknowledge it? I suppose for myself, I've not really thought through. And I think we probably disagree on the effect of what an apology really would mean for their viewers. Viewers turn to their trusted media sources, whatever the channel is. And for us, it was about accountability. Why not force them to say we shouldn't have done that? That was false. You have been misled. Joe Biden actually won. Dominion and Smartmatic and all that stuff was operating fine. Why not force them to do that? Was was it just like we'll give you 200 million dollars more if you don't force us to do it? Because you could have forced them to do it. Well, a defamation, the defamation part of the law is really not built around apologies.

It is built to compensate for damage. And I can tell you, we had a company-wide call yesterday. All right. We can listen to more of that if we want to. I mean, they could have made them apologize. Isn't that in negotiations, like anything is possible? I mean, anything is possible in negotiations, but there are also. Isn't that in negotiations like anything is possible? I mean, anything is possible in negotiations, but there are also lines that are drawn in negotiations. And Joyce, I'm sure from the very beginning, Fox said, I don't you know, we can talk numbers and maybe we'll get to numbers.

We're never going to apologize. And we don't care. We will we will burn the entire company down. We cannot apologize because that will undermine our credibility to our viewers, which will undermine our ability to be able to make money on this network. So we'll talk numbers. We will never apologize. And I think that is something that Dominion obviously heard that message loud and clear. And yeah, a lot of people in the media would have loved to see that. But obviously, sometimes in negotiations, there are lines that are drawn and say, we won't talk about this, but we'll give you 200 million more dollars over here if that will make things easier. One of the traditional things that plaintiffs do in defamation cases before they file suit is they seek a retraction. They reach out to the future defendant and they say, we need you to retract the lies that you told about us in the same forum where you made them. In this case, that would have been live on Fox and in some of the publications. And so that bridge is already crossed before you ever

file the lawsuit. Right. Retraction is off the table. Of course, it can come back on when you reach the negotiation stage. But it's pretty clear here for all the reasons that we've been laying out that that was never going to happen as part of this case. And something that I think is easy to miss, and it's a little bit unsatisfying because so many people hope that this lawsuit would bring about some form of vindication for the American public. This was always about the damages that Dominion suffered and their lawyers were always going to advise them to take a settlement like this one that did a lot to make them whole and put them back on the right track as a company. You know, what remedy exists for the American

people that still remains to be seen here? It's a great question because, you know, I think that you said a lot of members of the media, I think a lot of members of the media were watching this because this is a stain on our industry of news gathering and even analysis that when you analyze something or even give an opinion, it's based on fact. It's not based on fiction. And so it is frustrating. Or at least opinion that is not being undermined by the very same people the second they get off the air. Correct. And Jen Psaki, I'd love to get your thoughts because there's two issues here. And one of them you were directly involved with being on the other end of this in your previous job. But I want to I want to cite and I said this yesterday, but there are millions and millions of people who watch Fox.

They do very well in the ratings and they will not get the full story. I'm not saying Fox hasn't covered it, but they have not covered it robustly, full-throatedly. I would go as far as that because this is a huge story. And if you turn on Fox, you're not going to see it. You're not going to see it. You're going to see maybe a few details. Is that a surprise to you? It's not a surprise, but I'm citing the frustration that people in the world of journalism and political analysis feel because it's not like, oh, we want to get them. We want to see, you know, TV hosts go down. That's not this is sad. As you said yesterday, this is an American tragedy. It really is. And I don't know, you know, I don't feel malice toward anybody there, but I do feel frustration that viewers are continuing to be misled on that

network because that's all they watch. And so they're not going to understand that they were lied to your thoughts, especially being on the other end of some of the lies. Well, sure. I mean, first of all, yes, they had to pay almost $800 billion. That's not a small amount of money, and they're going to have to pay more in all likelihood. But Tucker Carlson has been on the air spewing lies night after night. What are the consequences to Tucker Carlson? Did he get a light tap on the hand and say, don't do that again, or maybe do more of that again? We don't really know. So on the business level and the legal level, yes, this is a massive headache for them. But the hosts that are out

there knowingly lying to the public every day, at least as far as we all know, have had no consequences. And that means they're incentivized to go out and continue to spew lies to get ratings. I also would say, Mika, that, you know, as somebody who shares my opinions, of course, and as somebody who doesn't hide from the fact that I did work in a Democratic White House and I am a Democrat or I have worked for many Democratic causes, there is a big difference between sharing opinion and sharing opinionated lies or lies that you spew as opinion. And that is part of the problem here, too, because it is not all the same. I don't go out on television on Sundays

or when I'm on Morning Joe and spew lies. I may share what I think, but that is different from Tucker Carlson and Jeanine Pirro and these others who are spewing lies that they, you know, coat as opinion. And that, you know, that's one of the reasons why there's distrust, I think.

And so that, yes, is a stain on everybody. Well, you know, all news gathering networks make mistakes. Absolutely. And when you deal in opinion, often all networks. Very difficult. Go overboard. And they say things that end up not being true. And they are so caught up in the ideology, be it on the right or on the left, that they get swept up and taken away with the story and say things that end up just being wrong. Or they look for sources that actually aren't accurate, not knowing that they're accurate,

but that just reinforces what they already believe. The difference here, Willie, and why this is so damning in this particular case with the 2020 election is because you actually have discovery where you have hosts who would say what I'm saying on the air is a lie. Yeah. What I'm saying to my viewers, they're basically saying it's all BS. That what Rudy Giuliani is saying is a lie. That the lawyer, the Kraken lady, that she's a nut job. They all will text each other and say, this is really bad. You'll even, you'll have executives, you know,

Rupert Murdoch at one point saying, this is, you know, what I saw tonight was deeply disturbing. So that's what's so damning here is there've been people on this network that have said things, they get swept up in a story. And, And like all of us, sometimes that story takes you too far. Same thing with CNN. Same thing with Fox. And then when they make mistakes, you hope they come back and say, boy, OK, well, we got that wrong. And we've we've done that this on this show. I have to do it every three minutes on this show. We have a ticker for you. Yeah. We have a ticker. By the way, yeah. No, but we're not perfect.

At 631, I'll be making an apology for something I said over the last 31 minutes. The difference here, though, Willie... I think you're being very fair. I've already said it. The difference is here, they knew that what they were saying was a lie because they said it themselves when they were not on the air that this story about a stolen election was a lie. That's what separates this from the mistakes we make. The New York Times makes CNN makes the BBC makes other news gathering operations make.

Yeah, malicious lie because they all knew the truth and went out to please their audience, said something else. And such a divisive lie that has such consequences for the public that drove people to the United States Capitol on January 6th, that got cops beaten up, that got people thrown in jail now for going and believing to that lie, many of whom now are in courtrooms saying, I was fed a story I should have known better. I know it's not true now. And the judge says, I'm sorry that happened to you, but you're going to jail for seven and a half years. That's that's the consequence to divide our country and to do so intentionally and with such malice and so cynically to please the viewers that you were worried might be drifting away from you if you started to tell the truth. And as John points out, they're coming back to Donald Trump. They know where the power is. They know where the influence is. They look at the poll. Looks like Ron DeSantis maybe isn't what they thought he could be. Donald Trump is the man in the Republican Party and Fox News

will be right back there with him. Oh, all right. Well, we've got a lot more news and politics. Can I just say one final thing? Yeah. Say one final thing. This is painful. You know, Willie, I'm a big believer. I talk about gravity. I'm also, at the end of the day, I am a small government conservative. I believe in market forces. They, of course, need to be tempered at times. But I believe in market forces. So we're asking, well, how will this impact

primetime hosts? How will this impact other hosts? Let me tell you that all the things that I've brought up over the past 30 minutes that I've had, by the way, three CEOs text me since I've said it saying, well, the thing that you said about the board and the shareholders asking these questions, they're asking these questions now because none of this has made sense. How they've handled this, how they've bungled this. Okay, so they've got $4 trillion. Great, that's awesome.

Well, they have $4 billion. They have 800, I'm used to talking in government money. They have 800 million less now. After Smartmatic, they'll have at least $800 million less then. Okay? And sure, I'm sure Fox, they've been number one for the most part since 1999. They'll continue to be number one, I'm sure. But there will be adjustments.

There will be adjustments. There will be adjustments. There has, since Roger Ailes left, there have been absolutely no guardrails at Fox News. And I know this personally. Whatever hosts wanted to say, they said it. And everybody in the front office was afraid to stop them from saying it. When Tucker Carlson suggested many times that I was a murderer. You know, if any other network, if it were running like a normal network where there were guardrails, you would have Roger Ailes saying, stop, stop. That doesn't exist over there. And that hasn't

existed over there for a very long time. There's not been there have not been guardrails. There are 800 million reasons now why there are going to be guardrails put up there. And after Smartmatic, there will be more. And why? Just market forces, capitalism. It doesn't make sense to run a network this way, Willie. Yeah, I guess that remains to be seen. Is there somebody who will step up to their big stars with big audiences who make a lot of money? We'll see. And you're right. I think maybe because of the financial questions, maybe some things will change there.

But it's clear that that sort of confrontational bravado that's baked in over there across the street that really came from Roger Ailes, it's still there. But when you look at that statement about Smartmatic, when they've got the swagger after they were just knocked down on the canvas by Dominion, it's not as convincing as it once was, because if they get hit up for another billion dollars, that becomes, as you say, a real business problem. Well, and I guess who stepped up is Dominion. I mean, you talk about gravity. And if you work there, you know that your company isn't going to protect you, that you're going to be exposed and that if you say something, you know, your company isn't really backing you. So maybe that's one thing that has happened here

is that, I mean, it's really created a dynamic of tension. Well, you've got you've got to be careful because, again, Jen, the hosts over there and I'm just I'm talking about all the hosts have to be asking what in the world they got involved in a fight with Dominion. They knew they were going to lose. They knew it, but they did. Again, this is false bravado. When they knew they were going to lose, they went into discovery where they knew we were going to be exposed. We were going to be embarrassed by all of the stuff that went out there. And they allowed the lawsuit to move forward anyway and then settled at the end. And yeah, when you pay up to eight hundred million dollars, you're admitting fault in a huge way.

And so, again, if you're working over there, if you're you just you've got to be wondering what in the world's going on here. And with Smartmatic, what's next? Yeah. Also, I mean, these texts, these emails, they're hugely embarrassing for a range of the hosts beyond Tucker Carlson. I mean, there are more down the middle reporters or people I considered more down the middle reporters like Brett Baer and Martha McCallum who are in some of these emails or texts kind of suggesting that they shouldn't provide accurate information to the public on the timeline at which they learn it, meaning when states are called or when states are won. That is not Tucker Carlson, certainly not putting

in the same category, but that is damaging to them reputationally as well. And the more there is a discovery process, another lawsuit, more information that could be public, the more damaging to their own personal brands this is, right? And they are all apart and wrapped up in all of this as well. So yes, I mean, all of this is exposing, as you've said, Joe, that they knowingly, not just Tucker Carlson, many people there, executives, leaders, mainstream reporters, knowingly shared inaccurate information with the public. That that is not good for their reputation. And the more we learn, we'll see what more we learn. But that's not good for them either. Well, you're right.

You have people that were supposedly mainstream news reporters and always been described as such. Actually telling Fox News not to call states accurately. Yeah. Because it would hurt them with their audience. So awful. Which, who says that on election night? I don't know. Who says, who says we've made the correct call, but it's angered our viewers.

We have to take it off the board. Just as much as other. All right. Still ahead on Morning Joe, a major Republican donor voices new concern about Ron DeSantis. What that could mean for the Florida governor's potential 2024 presidential bid. Get out and fight right now. Or he's busy with the Mickey Mouse. presidential 2024 presidential bid. That guy needs to get out and fight right now. He's busy with the Mickey Mouse. He's talking about doing it in May or something or June. No, it's not going to work. It's going up in smoke right now. He's got to get out and fight back if he can. Plus, the latest on the Supreme Court fight over the nation's most commonly used abortion bill. Also ahead,

House Speaker Kevin McCarthy unveils a $1.5 trillion debt ceiling package. We'll get reaction from the White House when Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre joins the conversation. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. In a week, a simple mistake has led to gun violence in America, this time in Texas, where a cheerleader is in the ICU this morning after a man opened fire on her and her friends when they approached the wrong car. NBC News correspondent Morgan Chesky has details. Three shootings in one week, Missouri, New York and Elgin, Texas, all tied to seemingly innocent mistakes approaching the wrong car or home. I'm Peyton Washington. I wasn't the lead general. High school cheerleader Peyton Washington, the latest victim, after a stranger opened fire on her and

three friends in the parking lot of a grocery store outside Austin. It was unfortunate. These girls were just trying to get home. The girls traveling home from a late night practice to where they had all parked their cars. After one of the teens mistakenly approached the wrong vehicle, police say a man began shooting multiple times. The guy got out and they saw that he had a gun and so they tried to speed off and he shot his gun like five times or so. Police arresting Pedro Telo Rodriguez Jr., charged with deadly conduct, a third degree felony, as Washington remains in the ICU. She's won every title there is to win in all-star cheerleading. She's literally a role model for the kids in this industry throughout the country. Everybody knows her. The latest shooting comes days after a Kansas City teen was shot in the head after going to the

wrong home to pick up his younger brothers. The 84-year-old suspect pleading not guilty to first degree assault and armed criminal action and was released on $200,000 bond. The family pressing for additional hate crime charges. Ralph Yarl is now out of a hospital. His family releasing this new photo, calling him a walking miracle. Adding had the bullet hit his head a fraction of an inch in any other direction, he would probably be dead. Meanwhile,

in an upstate New York, Kevin Monaghan pleading not guilty to murder and remanded into jail without bail. Monaghan's accused of fatally shooting 20-year-old Kaylin Gillis. She was in a car that accidentally pulled into his driveway looking for a friend's house. Police say the suspect fired two shots from his front porch, killing Gillis. For this man to sit on his porch and fire at a car with no threat is just, just angers me so badly. Communities grieving after common mistakes ended with violence in three separate shootings. Meanwhile, in Alabama, three people have been arrested, including two teenage brothers,

following a shooting on Saturday night at a Sweet 16 birthday party. Four people were killed, 32 others injured when the gunfire broke out. The three people arrested all face four counts of reckless murder. Officials say the two teenagers will be charged as adults. The district attorney for Alabama's Fifth Judicial Circuit became emotional talking about the victims, explaining how the case is personal for him. There were so many kids in this venue and what they saw, it's their victims in this. Their their families are victims of this. I'll share something with you. I'm going to try not to get emotional and I'm not going to be taking any questions because I probably would. But one of the victims that wasn't injured is Lexi, Lexi Dowdell.

It's Lexi's 16th birthday party. Sweet 16. There's an uncut cake and unburnt 16 candles that never got lit. Lexi's brother was one of the victims. On her 16th birthday party, she'd been helped by her brother as he took his last breath. That's what we're dealing with here. Those are what these victims went through.

The message that I want to send is I know some of these victims personally. Some of these kids are kids of friends of mine, people that I went to school with, people that I played ball with and against in the community back in high school. And these are my kids. These are our kids. Don't mess with our kids. Do not mess with our kids. Thank you, Joyce. We were just talking in the commercial break about Dateville. You know, you know that town. Well, small town, about 50-50 black and white. I think we saw some of that from the gentleman who was just speaking there. It is a close-knit community. It is a close-knit community. And it's got to be heartbreaking as the district attorney to have to make comments

like this after the shooting occurs, right? Young kids on both sides of this harmed and damaged for life because of the ready availability of guns. And the reality is these words are a little bit hollow until as a society we become willing to address the ready availability of guns, their availability to people who lack the maturity to use them properly, to store them, to train. I know the Second Amendment is a hot button issue in this country, but the reality is that there are people in the South and other parts of the country who want to have guns. But we see a situation like this where in the absence of guns, this would have been harsh words

or maybe a fistfight. The guns are the accelerator that leads to the death of these young people. It's the epidemic of guns and the fact that the instinct to suddenly use them that I mean, this obviously is a shooting at the party. We don't totally know the motivations there. But then we had three examples just in the last week, Willie, about people being shot simply because they made a mistake. Mistakes that we've all made. You go to the wrong house, got the wrong door. You pull into the wrong driveway.

You're leaving. And then here you reach for the wrong car. And all three of those moments, the response from the other person was to shoot. No words exchanged, just shooting. And shooting through a door, shooting out of front yard, or stepping out of a car and shooting at a young woman. And the commonality here is the ability to just have a gun and to use it. And the tragedies are just piling up. And Joe, it's sort of this stand your ground

mentality in some cases, maybe even a paranoia that there's somebody who's pulled in my driveway. There is an immediate threat. And I am within my rights to shoot that person, even if it's a 20 year old or just pulled into the wrong driveway or a 16 year old just picking up going to the wrong house to pick up his brothers. These incidents are just gut-wrenching because they didn't need to happen. Well, it's just horrifying. I can't even begin to imagine the pain and the misery that these families and friends will have to endure the rest of their lives. Willie, it's just like the Second Amendment. It's people taking the stand your ground laws and mentality to extremes, to extremes that have never been written into the law.

They're going to be spending the rest of their lives or a lot of their lives now in jail now because of these things that they're doing. But we're also seeing it up and down highways in 95 from Miami up to Maine. We're seeing we're seeing people rage, road rage. I hear about it all the time. You know, people having guns in their cars, getting cut off and instead of honking, getting a gun out and shooting. And it's happening all over America right now. Twelve thousand seven hundred and nine people have been murdered by guns, have been killed by guns so far in this year alone. Well, I mean, again, Willie, in three or four months, that's about three times as many people that get killed in Iraq and Afghanistan are troops over 20 years.

It's happened here in America in the last three or four months. And it's all very simple. It's the amount of guns that are out there. The availability of guns that are out there, the availability of guns, the fact that you can now get guns in states like Florida because of Ron DeSantis and Tennessee, where they've been pushing to be able to carry without a permit, without training, without having a basic responsibility for understanding what you're holding in your hand, when you're holding a gun in your hand, no courses on what to do and what

not to do with a gun. And so what happens is you've got this proliferation of guns all over America. So why are there more shootings? Because there are more people who are emotionally unstable and who are temperamentally unfit to carry around a gun. Something happens they don't like, they get the gun out and they start shooting again because of this runaway gun culture that we have in the United States of America that has nothing to do with the Second Amendment or what our founding fathers intended the Second Amendment to stand for. Well, a case in your point, Joe, in Maine, you mentioned going up 95 from Florida to Maine, a man arrested now in connection to a deadly shooting spree in the rural part of that state.

Police say a 34-year-old man shot and killed four people at a home in Bowdoin on Tuesday. He then allegedly opened fire on the highway about 25 miles away in Yarmouth, injuring three others. State police say the suspect confessed to both shootings, saying he killed his parents and two family friends, then shot at cars on the highway because he thought he was being followed by police. The man had just been released from prison on Friday and was staying with his mother. That suspect is set to appear in court later today. Joyce, final thoughts. We've talked, covered a lot of legal ground, but I want to get you quickly on this Supreme Court sort of kicking the can down the road, maybe for 48 more hours on the abortion pill, the most commonly used abortion pill and

whether or not it will be readily available to women. Well, I guess the cynic in me wonders why the Supreme Court wants to release their ruling on this issue at midnight on Friday when people won't really be scrutinizing it. The reality is that this is the sort of delay that the court often buys itself, and it may not signal anything. It may mean that there is a justice that wants to write a dissent from this decision. But it's not a merits decision. This is not the final conclusion of this case. The only issue on the table here is whether Mr. Pristone remains on the market while this litigation works its way through the court. So early times. All right. We'll keep an eye on that. We'll have much more in that story coming up. Joyce fans, always great to have you on set with us here in New York. Good to see you.

Good to be with you. Coming up, the latest on the war in Eastern Europe as the Biden administration moves to shore up Ukraine's military ahead of the country's expected counteroffensive. Plus, Russia appears to be benefiting from Western weapons as well. We'll have new reporting on how Moscow is skirting sanctions. Morning Joe's coming right back. Beautiful day in New York. It's gorgeous. A few minutes. You were in New York last week when I was overseas.

You said it was just burning hot. It was hot, but it was beautiful. Everyone was outside enjoying the blooming flowers. Time now to take a look at the morning papers. Did you see? How were the rats? I saw. Were the rats good? We had the mayor on the show, and we talked about the rat czar.

But there's a rat czar. There's a rat czar in New York City. How did I not get that job? I would love to be the rat czar. It's a smart move. Washington, D.C. should take a look at that. All right. A lot of rats in Washington right now.

Yes. What's that about? I see them when I walk the dog. I've never seen that in D.C. in all the years I've been there. A lot of rats. It's gotten worse. No, for sure. I don't understand.

All right. The morning papers, the Chattanooga Times Free Press has a front page feature on Tennessee's Republican governor asking legislators to pass a red flag law. Governor Bill Lee asked lawmakers to quote, set politics aside and pass a bill that would keep guns away from people who pose a threat to others. The move is in response to last month's mass shooting at a Nashville elementary school that claimed the lives of three young children and three adults. Meanwhile, in Michigan, the Detroit Free Press reports lawmakers have sent a red flag law to the governor's desk. The bill allows courts to temporarily remove guns from those deemed a danger to themselves or others. Last week, Governor Gretchen Whitmer signed two other gun safety bills into law. They expand background checks for all firearm purchases and penalize those who don't safely store their weapons at home.

Boy, those are common sense reforms that the overwhelming majority of Americans support. That's a great move up in Michigan. In Illinois, the Chicago Tribune leads with the mayor elects plans to crack down on crime. Yesterday, Brandon Johnson asked state lawmakers to increase funding for schools and youth employment. He says these initiatives can help reduce crime among teens. And in Florida, the Orlando Sentinel reports all grade school educators will soon be banned

from teaching students about sexual orientation and gender identity. The State Board of education yesterday approved expanding the state's don't say gay law to all K through 12 grades. Currently, the ban only affects kindergarten through third grade. The total grade school ban will take effect in about a month. More on DeSantis now. Donors are raising concerns about Ron DeSantis' potential run for president. The Washington Post reports that enthusiasm for the Florida governor's bid for the White House has rapidly cooled, confronting DeSantis with a considerably more difficult political outlook for the campaign he is expected to launch. The Post continues donors, activists and other

supporters are increasingly voicing worries that DeSantis has made unforced errors or embraced extreme positions that could hurt him in a general election, including the abortion ban at six weeks that he signed last week. The paper continues he has struck some Republicans as distant in personal interactions. Some Republicans trace DeSantis' struggle to lockdown endorsements in part to his insularity and said he should have done more to cultivate relationships. One Republican mega-donor, Home Depot founder Ken Langoneone tells The Post that it wouldn't hurt for DeSantis to be a little more conciliatory in his demeanor, while noting that he worries about the resurgence of former President Donald Trump, whom he previously backed but argues cannot win another general

election. And that's a weird time and time again. He's not conciliatory to other people. We heard about Congressman Stubbe, who after he got hurt, falling off the roof and in really bad shape. Ron DeSantis didn't call him, didn't reach out to him. Donald Trump did immediately. There's a press conference impacting his district. The governor says, this is my press conference. You're not allowed up here, basically. All of this is it's politics 101. And Ron DeSantis is not good at politics 101. And, you know, Willie, this this attack on Disney, which I've just said is stupid from the beginning, really dumb from the start. It's it a lot tougher, especially, we've talked about it, because Bob Iger is now back at Disney. And Iger is a guy who has so much respect among all the donors, among people on Wall Street, among, my gosh, all the people that Ron DeSantis would want to support him. And he's making a mistake. And I've got to say, it's pretty funny watching Iger just slowly turn up the heat on him because

you're not going to beat Iger. If you're Ron DeSantis, like meatball Ron, as Trump says, versus Bob Iger. Yeah, it's not a close call. Yeah, no, that's not a fight that Governor DeSantis likely is going to win. And yet he continues to bore down into that issue and get himself deeper in the hole on it. Bob Iger has called Governor DeSantis position anti-business. And that is something that's been shared by many Republicans, people running against Ron DeSantis' position anti-business, and that is something that's been shared by many Republicans, people running against Ron DeSantis, Republicans in the Senate saying that this is a crazy position to take,

that it's anti-business. And it was Governor Christie, who's considering a run himself, who said, when did Republicans be the ones who got their feelings hurt about one thing and went after a private company to punish them for it? He's facing Governor DeSantis' new criticism about that ongoing battle with Disney. Here's the take of Fox Business host and former advisor to Donald Trump, Larry Kudlow. I just want to observe that Governor DeSantis is close to making a fool of himself with his Walt Disney obsession. This has been going on now for months and months and months. And I would argue that it is unseemly.

Number one, a governor should not be come crashing down on, if not the biggest one of the biggest business. I don't like Disney's politics either. They're woke politics. My guess is Bob Iger is going to change that. But whatever. DeSantis should make a deal and stop already. He's not running against Walt Disney for president.