Morning Joe - Morning Joe 4/23/25

Episode Date: April 23, 2025

Treasury secretary says trade war with China is not 'sustainable', expects 'de-escalation'

What Doge is doing right now is they're going through every agency and they're examining any contracts or any lack of efficiencies in spending federal dollars. This is something that I'm going to answer you, and I'm going to answer you, but if you want to know, it's okay, but I'm still going to answer you. Are you going to allow me to answer the question? what they are examining right now is an efficiency in the federal system This is something that President Obama wanted to do with President Obama Ladies and gentlemen, if you have to ask me, it's all right. I got it. So let's go Elon Musk and Roche have been authorized by the President of the United States. Hold on, hold on, hold on.

If you're letting out the conversation about policy, then... Please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, for sure, please, We were actually given a briefing on this. It is a fact that 60 percent of the calls into Social Security are fraud based. Whoa Republican Congressman Byron Donalds faced a contentious crowd of constituents this week during a town hall in Florida where he was grilled about Doge cuts. That comes as Elon Musk appears to be reconsidering the amount of time that he's spending on Doge amid a financial freefall for Tesla. Also ahead we'll bring you the latest on the second signal scandal involving Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth as the White House continues to show support for him, plus a major economic moment, major economic news from President Trump and his administration driving a massive

rally on Wall Street. We'll go through the president's comments on the future of the Fed chair and trade negotiations with China. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Wednesday, April 23rd with us. We have the cohost of our fourth hour and contributing writer at the Atlantic, Jonathan Lemire, U.S. special correspondent for BBC News and the host of the rest is politics podcast, Cady K. Co-founder and CEO of Axios, Jim Van De Hei, and New York Times opinion columnist David French joins us. Good to have you all on board this morning.

We've got a big show today. We got a couple of really big guests. Admiral McKitt Craven, Boy George. I mean, really. Never before uttered in the same sentence. I know. We just made TV history. I'm serious. The guy who got Bin Laden. Our rundown is amazing. Yeah. Yeah, the guy who got Bin Laden and Boy George. And Andrew Sorkin, of course. Molly's here. Oh, Maura Healey's coming on the show this morning. Talk about the

impact Trump administration is having on her state, governor of Massachusetts. So big show this morning. Want to get to our top story though, which is early this morning, Pope Francis's body was transferred to St. Peter's Basilica in Vatican City. The procession marked the start of a three day mourning period.

Church bells rang as the Pope's coffin was brought to the Basilica. This is a live look right now, Church bells rang as the Pope's coffin was brought to the Basilica. This is a live look right now where worshippers are paying their final respects. Francis' body will lie here in state until Friday evening. He will be buried on Saturday. World leaders, including President Trump, are expected to attend the funeral. David Frent, I'm wondering your thoughts, especially as we look at the legacy of Pope Francis,

the state of the world right now, and what could come next? Yeah, you know, what we're seeing is the legacy of a very compassionate and empathetic man who really was a supremely countercultural in an age of anger and animosity. I mean he was constantly an alternative presence in the public square that was just a you know he was a balm and not a blowtorch in the public square and and and that's rare and I think that as

we're looking forward one of the questions we're all going to ask is who is going to be that counter-cultural presence now? Who is going to offer that kind of empathetic, compassionate voice, one that is constantly turning towards the marginalized, constantly turning towards the most vulnerable? And that's, I think, where we're going to feel his loss. And, you know, I'm not a Catholic. I have zero insight into the conclave. But I do know. Do we lose David there? Yeah, I think we lost David.

We're going to be following. To David's point, though, the pope was in a prison just a few days before his death, washing the feet of prisoners, living the gospel of Jesus. And now his body has been transferred to St. Peter's Basilica. We'll be covering this story all morning. Meanwhile, the markets are reacting to yesterday's comments from President Trump and members

of his administration. Treasury Secretary Scott Besen told investors in a closed-door meeting the president's trade war with China is, quote, not sustainable. According to a person in the room, Besson said he expects there will be a de-escalation in the very near future, but acknowledged negotiating with China is likely to be a slog. Later in the day, White House press secretary Caroline Levitt echoed the Treasury secretary's optimism, adding the administration was setting the stage for a deal, although neither official Trump's No, we're going to be very nice. They're going to be very nice and we'll see what happens. But ultimately they have to make a deal.

145 percent is very high and it won't be that high. It's not going to be that high. It will come down substantially, but it won't be zero. It used to be zero. We were just destroyed. China was taking us for a ride and it's going to have it's not going to happen. We're going to be very good to China. The president also walked back his attacks in part on Jerome Powell, the Fed chair days

after posting online Powell's termination can't come soon enough. In the words of the president there yesterday, Trump said he never was actually going to fire Powell. None whatsoever. Never did. The press runs away with things. Now, I have no intention of firing him. I would like to see him be a little more active in terms of his idea to lower interest rates.

This is a perfect time to lower interest rates. If he doesn't, is it the end? No, it's not. But it would be good timing. It would be, it could have taken place earlier. But no, I have no intention to fire him. So, meanwhile, the White House says more than a dozen countries have brought the administration written trade proposals and several foreign leaders are setting meetings this week to discuss potential deals. Spoke to our entire trade team this morning.

There is a lot of progress being made. We now have 18 proposals on paper that have been brought to the trade team. Again, these are proposals on paper that countries have proposed to the Trump administration and to our government. You have Secretary Besant, Secretary Lutnick, Ambassador Greer, NEC Director Hassett, and Peter Navarro, the entire trade team, meeting with 34 countries this week alone. We're doing very well in respect to a potential trade deal with China. As I mentioned, there have now been 18 proposals in more than 100 countries around the world who are wanting to make a deal with the United States of America.

And the President and the administration are setting the stage for a deal with China. So while questions still remain on negotiations with China, the White House is reportedly close to general trade agreements with Japan and India. The details of the trade deals are still being worked out. According to Politico, the agreements are closer to memorandums of understanding or a broad architecture for future deals. Jim Van De Hei, you guys are writing about what's happening behind the scenes and what sort of led to this moment here,

saying that President Trump got a scare from CEOs and the markets on Monday. What has led to what we're seeing today? Yeah, I think the important takeaway would be, in the last 24 hours, I'd say for the first time, we feel like in talking to White House officials, they're starting to make progress in persuading Trump that what he did early on was too dangerous and is really having ramifications that go beyond what he was seeing in his line of sight. Very important meeting yesterday in the White House.

You had the CEOs of Walmart, Target, Home Depot, with the president, warning him, very bluntly saying, listen, you're gonna have price increases soon. You're gonna have empty shelves in a lot of our stores. Like in two weeks. Like in two weeks. And you're gonna have smaller companies going under because they're so reliant on trade and that that hasn't showed up yet at the stores, but it will soon.

And I think the combination of that, watching the markets, hearing from other CEOs across different sectors saying the same thing, does appear, and I put quotes around appear because the president really is dug in on tariffs as a theory, but at least the White House officials who are trying to persuade him are. And that is an important thing to note about Trump. Like, if someone who runs a company is a CEO, you need people around you who will look at you and say, you know what, that's a dumb idea, and say it bluntly, or that's a dangerous idea and say it bluntly.

He doesn't have that. So when you're trying to persuade him, people have to either bring in other officials that he respects or they have to say, no, no, sir, this is actually a genius idea if you move it this way. And so the process of moving him is taking a lot longer than those that don't like the policy internally would hope. So we'll see if he continues on this track, but certainly the comment on China, certainly the comment on Powell, the idea that that was the media making it up that he wanted to fire him, they

were reacting to his social media post where he basically called him a dog and said that he's a loser and shouldn't be in the gig. Like is he saying he should be fired? No, but anyone else interpreting that might be fair to interpret it as that way. Well, yeah, I mean, Trump said, quote on Friday in a true social post, Powell's termination cannot come soon enough. That's pretty explicit. He also called him a loser a couple of days ago.

But John, what are you hearing about the turn here from a little bit of a turn in rhetoric, at least from the president about Powell yesterday about China? Obviously, the markets have tanked because of these tariffs. They tanked even more when he started threatening the job of Jerome Powell. Someone got to him, maybe just for a moment, as always. It might just be a day and he'll be back at his attacks today. But someone perhaps communicating to him, as Jim suggests, CEOs, people he respects, rich guys saying, this is not working.

You got to pump the brakes. A hallmark of Trump's first term were these warring factions in the building. And this time around, they really tried to say that's not the case. We're all using our oars rowing in the same direction. But we have seen a real split here in the last couple of weeks. And what's happened is that Scott Besson, the Treasury Secretary, is a little more emboldened than he was back on Liberation Day three weeks ago. And Peter Navarro has been pushed aside somewhat.

There's been, including one key meeting last week where Trump announced his pause on tariffs. It happened because Navarro was literally on the other side of the building and other aides rushed to Trump and got a few moments with him. And the president still remains responsive to who's in his ear last. And that's what we saw a little bit yesterday. It's Bissett and his team. Also as Jim notes, some CEOs warning him that the damage here is real. You can't be threatening to fire the head of the Fed.

Let's be clear, he did. And you can't, the idea of a trade war with China is going to continue to sink the markets here. And Monday was a really rough day. We saw this rhetoric yesterday that at least momently gives a respite to Wall Street. But, Katty, I want to go to you on this because this is, we all know it. We say it a lot. The markets and also for other nations looking to deal with the United States, looking to

have trade with the United States, what do they bank on? They want predictability. They want certainty. They want some sort of census so we know where this is going. And even on a day where, yes, the markets cheered what Trump did, it's another 180. It is a constant shifting of stances, of language, and it's just so hard for any other nation to get their arms around it. And yes, I think at best we can say, loose understanding of frameworks to deals.

It's going to be hard to fill in those blanks. Yeah. And the question now is, is the message we've had from the last 24 hours from Scott Bessent and from the president himself about Jerome Powell the end of the story? Is that the decision now going forward? It's no longer going to be the roller coaster, but the strategy has been set. Powell is not going to be fired. The Fed is going to maintain its independence. The tariff war is going to be the roller coaster, but the strategy has been set. Powell is not going to be fired. The Fed is going to maintain its independence.

The tariff war is going to come down. And a normal service, if you like, will be resumed. We don't know that yet. Trump seems to be more receptive to markets today than he was three weeks ago when he initially announced Liberation Day. Scott Pesant is going to be speaking at the International Monetary Fund later today for their spring meetings. And it's interesting that this is a kind of time where the international community has

come to Washington now speaking to an IMF official a couple of days ago who said there's two real problems with how the world is seeing the White House at the moment, the world of finances is seeing the White House at the moment. One is the policy. They don't like the policies of protectionism and these tariffs that are being put on countries around the world. But the second and the bigger problem is a question of competence. Is this White House competent when it comes to stewardship, not just of the American economy,

but of the global economy? And I was told that that second issue is the bigger concern that other countries have with America at the moment. Speaking of the IMF, we're looking at this headline right here from CNBC. IMF slashing 2025 US growth forecast to 1.8 percent. That's down almost a full percentage point for the projections internationally. Let's bring in the anchor of CNBC's worldwide exchange, Frank Holland. Frank, it sounds like based on what we're talking about here,

some of the leaked rhetoric that we're hearing from Treasury Secretary Besant and from the president himself about not now wanting to fire Jerome Powell that the futures are up a bit. I mean, absolutely. Futures are considerably higher looking at the NASDAQ and the S&P and the pre-market,

both of them up over 2%. So very clearly, a lot of optimism over a possible end to the trade war with China that's impacted business and consumer confidence. The president's saying he's going to be quote unquote very nice and he expects tariffs to come down substantially when it comes to that trade deal with China. Also you mentioned Treasury Secretary Scott Besson also saying he sees a de-escalation. However, when kind of pressed on it, he says that they haven't, the administration hasn't

really talked directly to China. However, this morning, China's adding to the conversation, saying in part, in a translated statement, the US can't say it wants to reach an agreement with China, and on the other hand, keep exerting extreme pressure. So that statement, again, coming from China today, translated. I guess it's one step you could, or one thing you could say is positive, that there's a dialogue. I talked to a lot of trade officials. They say, as long as there's a dialogue, it's one step you could, or one thing you could say is positive that there's a dialogue. I talked to a lot of trade officials.

They say as long as there's a dialogue, it's positive. When there isn't any conversation, it isn't positive, but the very latest from China. And then as you mentioned, President Trump saying he doesn't want to fire Jay Powell. We saw the market sell off on Monday on some critical comments about the Federal Reserve chair urging him to lower rates. Also the president getting a bit personal with Jerome Powell. Remember that Fed decisions coming up on May 7th. So the market's just kind of breathing a sigh of relief a bit personal with Jerome Powell. Remember that Fed decision is coming up on May 7th. So the market is just kind of breathing a sigh of relief that that pressure on Jerome

Powell seems to be going away at least for now and that potentially there could be a trade deal on the way. So you mentioned the futures are higher again. S&P and the NASDAQ, both of them up over 2% in the pre-market. A number of factors. Again, the president, no plans to fire Jay Powell. China trade deal. Hope is also that Tesla shares will

continue to move higher. We're going to talk a bit more about Tesla. I know you guys want to talk about it, but CEO Elon Musk saying he's going to reduce his time working with Doge and focus more on Tesla. Tesla, a big part of the markets for both the S&P and the NASDAQ, a lot of waiting there. So those shares moving up about 6% higher, giving the markets a boost as well. One other thing to watch this morning, Apple and Meta, both of them fined by the EU today under the Digital Markets Act, about 500 million euros for Apple, about 200 million euros for a Meta.

The president has said in the past that he would possibly put tariffs on countries that penalize US companies. So again, something to watch. On my show earlier today, we spoke to a US trade official. He said the trade bloc is looking to Asia to make some deals as it continues to de-risk from China as opposed to decouple from China. A lot of reports say that the White House wants the EU to decouple from China. That trade

official we talked to said that's not really an option and still looking to make a deal with the U.S. By the way, we should point out as we talk about Jerome Powell, the president's talking about termination. He does not have the authority to fire the head of the Federal Reserve, though they're looking for ways to do that. Powell has said he fully intends to finish his term. Frank, you mentioned Tesla, that earning report, front page of the Wall Street Journal this morning. Net profits for the company absolutely plummeting in the first quarter. Revenue for the electric car makers automotive business

fell sharply down 20 percent while overall revenue slid nine percent. The stock is down more than 70 percent, seven zero percent compared to just a year ago. The company has acknowledged, quote, changing political sentiment and the ongoing trade war as key factors that have lowered demand. On the earnings call yesterday, Musk said he would begin now to shift his focus away from the Doge stuff and back to Tesla. Starting probably in next month, May, my time allocation to Doge will drop significantly. I'll have to continue doing it for, I think probably the remainder of the president's term,

just to make sure that the waste and fraud that we stop does not come roaring back, which we'll do if it has the chance. So I think I'll continue to spend a day or two per week on government matters for as long as the president would like me to do so, and as long as it is useful. But starting next month, I'll be allocating far more of my time to Tesla.

And now that the major work of establishing the Department of Government Efficiency is done. So again, Frank, Tesla profit falls 71% is the soaring headline this morning in financial newspapers around the world. So what is the expectation within Tesla about whether Elon Musk will come back full time to that role and focus on a business

that's floundering right now? You know, I think one really important thing to note here, and a lot of people point this out, he says he's gonna focus less on Doge. But remember, Elon Musk has a variety of other ventures. XAI, he has X, which was formerly Twitter. He also has his space business. We has a number of other ventures

I think the question for investors is when he says he's gonna focus less on Doge Does that mean he's gonna pour himself into Tesla that's looking to update the model Y Roll out robo taxis create humanoid robots A lot of analysts say that Tessa's actually fallen behind when it comes to the quote-unquote robo taxis or autonomous vehicles for rideshare And that it's really important to continue to increase sales of Teslas so that it has an installed base. So when it's time to roll out that robo taxi, they have vehicles that were purchased by people

like me and you that can be turned into those robo taxis and create other revenue, not only for the person that bought the original car, but also for the company as it rolls out the software. So a lot of questions about Elon Musk kind of deprioritizing Doge. What does it really mean for Tesla? And also what's going on with the brand? Has the brand faced some type of long-term damage with the idea that Elon Musk is connected to the Trump

administration and people are starting to politicize their EV buys? I've heard one analyst say that the cross-section of people that would buy EVs is very close to the people who are anti a lot of the Trump policy. So a lot of questions about what this means for Tesla long term as a brand as it tries to roll out these new products. All right, CNBC's Frank Holland, thank you very much. Thank you. So the Wall Street Journal editorial board has a new piece entitled Up the Down Trump Tariff Escalator, and it reads in part, quote, if Mr. Besant knows what Mr. Trump's real

China and trade strategies are, everyone would love to hear it, because so far it looks like ad hoc improvisation. But we and the markets will take whatever good news we can get these days. So would businesses across the country that are freezing investment or not hiring as they try to figure out what will happen when Mr. Trump's 90-day pause on his highest non-China tariffs end. If Mr. Besson can move markets merely with comments that a trade truce is coming, imagine how would they would respond if Mr. Trump simply called the whole tariff thing off.

And David French will also read from Axios. Reporters Mark Caputo and Ben Berkowitz really give a tick-tock of what this editorial is talking about here. Listen, on Monday, the CEOs of the three of the nation's biggest retailers, Walmart, Target, Home Depot, privately warned Trump in the Oval Office that tariff and trade policy could disrupt supply trains, raise prices, empty shelves. He specifically warned Trump in the Oval Office that tariff and trade policy could disrupt supply trains, raise prices, empty shelves. The big-box CEOs flat-out told Trump the prices aren't going up there steady right now, but

they will go up. An administration official familiar with the meeting told Axios, and this wasn't about food, but he was told that shelves will be empty. Another official briefed on the meeting said the CEOs told Trump disruptions could become noticeable in two weeks. While that was happening, financial markets were slumping. Stocks, bonds, the dollar, and investors panicked about Trump's latest threats to out-fed chair Jerome Powell and step on the central bank's independence. And then yesterday, Trump turned the dial down.

So David French, the markets and the business community, everybody, Jerome Powell is getting used to Trump believing something until he doesn't. Yeah, I mean, let's just take a step back and look at how bizarre this all is. Essentially, what we have is the president of the United States hitting the economy with a hammer. That's what he's doing. He's just hitting the economy with a hammer and people come in and they say, stop hitting the economy with a hammer, Mr. President.

He relents for a day or two where he gives some indication that he might relent, and the markets surge. And then he goes right back to hitting the economy with a hammer again, and the markets fall. I mean, this is the dynamic that we're watching, and there's no apparent underlying plan, so that even if he stops for a moment, even if the market comes back for a bit, because the indication is that he is not going to be as aggressive, what kind of environment is that if you're going to be reshoring industry, if you're going to be asking people to make huge investments in the United States when

the president is just changing the economic conditions day by day, depending on his mood? There's a reason why incompetence is surging in people's minds as a concern about this administration. Well, what kind of environment in that? That would be defined as an invalidating environment, where you don't know what to expect next. Still ahead on Morning Joe, the Trump administration is standing by Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, despite growing calls for his resignation. We'll show you what the White House is saying.

Plus, we're learning about Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem's handbag theft and another similar incident that took place just days before. Morning Joe is back in 90 seconds. Army of Defense is defenseless, but it's not his fault that ones who get the blame for this are the leakers. Those very same people keep leaking. There were a series of serious leaks. And so we looked for leakers.

The leakers know who they are. When we had leaks, leak investigation, leak investigation, leaking, leak, leaking, leaker, leaking, leaks, leaking, leaks, leaking, leaking, leakers. Once a leaker, always a leaker. Leaking is not okay. I don't have time for leakers. You don't have time for leakers? You are the leaker.

You're the one who leaked this. White House, though, continuing to stand by Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth as concerns grow he may have shared classified information about Yemen attack plans in two separate signal group chats. NBC News has learned those attack plans were first sent to Hegseth by the head of the U.S. Central Command through a secure government system, not through Signal. But the chief Pentagon spokesperson denies Hegseth shared any classified information through his personal phone on Signal, making some kind of distinction

there. Democrats now demanding Hegseth resign. The White House, though, making clear, the secretary not going anywhere. Secretary of Defense is doing a tremendous job and he is bringing monumental change to the Pentagon. And there's a lot of people in this city who reject monumental change. And I think frankly, that's why we've seen a smear campaign against the Secretary of Defense since the moment that President Trump announced

his nomination before the United States Senate. Let me reiterate, the president stands strongly behind Secretary Hegseth in the change that he is bringing to the Pentagon and the results that he's achieved thus far speak for themselves. So, John, obviously he is the leaker. He invited mistakenly, someone invited the National Security Advisor,

mistakenly invited Jeffrey Goldberg first, and in the second Signal Group chat, reportedly spread to the Friends and Family Signal Group. Above the fold, New York Times this morning, chaos builds at the Pentagon under Hegseth's control. It's not just this Signal story. In the past, the Trump administration's policy has just been to ride these things out. They'll go away. Something else will come along. It worked for them on this first round of signal controversy with Hegseth. Any indication they're prepared to move him out?

Yeah, first, let's be clear. It's deep dysfunction at the Pentagon right now. This is, of course, the secretary's handling of these signal chats. He's had four top advisors leave in recent days as part of, as he sort of suggested there, a leak investigation. But these are people who are largely closely allied with Hegseth himself. These aren't deep state operatives,

as the White House is trying to paint them as now. These are people who are close to him who are now being shown the door. Also some reporting that it was Hegseth himself who tried to give Elon Musk access to classified information about China. And President Trump had to step in and say, no, the Elon doesn't need to know that.

Right now, though, there is real frustration within the building about Hegseth, the president unhappy that said, to use their phrase, that they're rallying cry, no scalps. They don't want to show a popular cabinet member, and he is popular with the mega base, the door, particularly within the first hundred days. Yes, there has been some speculation in sort of the outer edges of Trump world about who could follow Hegseth. Some names are being floated. But right now Hegseth went on Fox yesterday.

I'm told the White House thought he did reasonably well in that interview defending himself. Then the president, at least for now, is not inclined to push him out. But there are real questions as to what other shoes may still drop and whether any other Republicans might say, look, enough is enough. We heard from one lawmaker over the weekend, on Monday, Congressman Bacon said, look, Hegseth needs to go. Congress still on recess. We'll see, though, as others, when they're pressed about Hegseth, whether they say, look, these are the concerns we had privately about his confirmation.

We said yes, but now it's clear he's not the guy. David French, you served in the United States Army. This just isn't a close call. You don't put attack plans in a signal group chat. By the way, Pete Hegseth knows that. All the senators rallying to his defense know that. The people around the president know that. If this were a Democrat, we can only imagine, although we don't have to imagine, given their

protests around Hillary Clinton's private server. But just your assessment of Pete Hegs' time so far in this job beyond the Signal Group chat, by the way. You know, no one should be surprised by the chaos that we're seeing. No one should be surprised that it appears he's out of his depth. I mean, we're getting reports already that in the building, it's not just that this is a smoothly run machine that has had a signal hiccup, but this is a very poorly run machine, of which the signal scandals are an indicator of the broader problem. I think it's really important to also note something else.

Look, soldiers like it when senior leaders go out and do push-ups with them, and soldiers like it when senior leaders share some of their own burdens and share some of their own experiences. But you know what they really want senior leaders to do? Their jobs. They want senior leaders to be good at their jobs. And if you're sharing operational security on signal, if the Pentagon is in meltdown mode all of the time, if you're having to go onto Fox to fight for your job every day, that is not telling the United States military that this man is in command of the situation, that this man is competent.

And again, it keeps that, that word keeps coming back. We keep coming back to... Yeah. You know, what's... I think... ... administration's failures in that regard. Sorry, we'll get the audio better on David French, but to his point, I think the fact that there are absolutely seemingly no consequences to this at the very least shows such a lack

of care for probably one of the most important facets of what protects this country, the Department of Defense, no consequences. This is our national security being treated with reckless disregard, with a cavalier attitude, with barbs back at the media. And I would think for our troops, for family members of anyone in the military, for any family members who have lost someone who served for our country, it would be chilling to see Pete Hegseth just laughing this off and blaming it on someone else. For every service member, for every family member, This is an insult to see him behaving in such a reckless way and nothing happening. Add to that, absolutely no accountability, none, not taking any, blaming it on other

people when it's obviously him. And even worse, hypocrisy. Here is Pete Hegseth, I think back in 2016, talking about others. Take a look. Apparently, the standard operating procedure inside the Clinton Secretary of State office was to send emails that couldn't otherwise be printed to the maid to print them out of a secure area or from a secure area and then hand them off. Any security professional, military, government or otherwise, would be fired on the spot for this type of conduct and criminally prosecuted for being so reckless with this kind of information.

The fact that she wouldn't be held accountable for this, I think, blows the mind of anyone who's held our nation's secrets dear, who's had a top secret clearance like I have and others who know that even one hiccup causes a problem, let alone a standard procedure like this. Really, just one hiccup causes a problem. Just one little one causes a problem. He holds the secrets dear. He knows so much about how it's important to be careful with our nation's secrets, to not chat about with other people about them, except his wife, his attorney, his brother, and Jeffrey Goldberg, Cady Kay. Your thoughts. I mean, it's pretty staggering listening to that tape.

There is video for everything, it seems. And listening to Pete Hegseth in that video from 2016, being so outraged about Hillary Clinton, and then now turning that outrage against the media and the leakers makes you realize that perhaps there's a little disingenuousness to what he's saying at the moment. Just a little touch.

But Jim, what are those Republican senators who voted for Pete Hegseth, and he passed with the slimmest of margin, just with one vote, knowing that he was not competent for the job and having expressed already their reservations about him for the job just in terms of his qualifications as a manager, he's never run anything as big and as important as this. What are you hearing they're feeling at the moment? I mean, listen, there's a split screen, right? There's what it's the BS you hear in public,

which is either supportive or silence, or it's what they tell you in private, right? Almost most of the senators you talk to never thought he should be the defense secretary and think all of this is absurd. And I think you have to sit back and think about a couple of things. One, every time that we talk about Republicans finally speaking out, it's Representative Bacon. It's a person. It is not the Republican Party. Almost nobody's speaking out. We've not found a single person who's talked to

Trump who said Trump has talked about replacing him. So others seem to be reporting that, but we can't find anybody who's talked to Trump or Trump's talking about it. And then three is we're not 100 days in. Like, four people have left. Like the way leadership works, as someone who runs a company, like anything you see in the behavior of your people reflects the leader. And the fact that you're 90 days in, and not even 90 days in because it took several days to get confirmed and then to hire staff, that you have infighting almost instantly, ineptitude across the top of it, and then just like the leaking,

and the fact that this is the Defense Department having to talk about internal drama as opposed to protecting the American people speaks to a deep-seated problem. Not how you'd run Axios, let alone the Defense Department. I'd be fired if I ran that way. You just can't. And I think that is when the American public or folks in MAGA are like, oh, you guys got

to stop picking on the cabinet officials. Like, leadership matters profoundly, right? Any organization reflects the people at the top. And especially when you're talking about vital organizations like the Defense Department, that's what concerns the most serious Republicans who are sitting on armed services thinking about the dangers that the country faces. And this stuff eventually does bite you. Like having highly competent people doing their job on behalf of the American people

is vital work, vital work. And like, will Hegseth survive? He probably survives in the short term. It's hard to see him surviving long term because I think there's a lot of other investigative reporting going on. I think there's more embarrassments to come for him that the White House is going to have to deal with. Eventually Trump does tire of people if it reflects poorly upon him. But this is your reality, at least for the foreseeable future. Yeah, I mean, if this is the behavior that is coming to the surface, there's definitely more. And I just, I'm looking to Republicans like Dave McCormick

and Josh Hawley, Senator Thune, Joni Ernst. I mean, these Republicans, they're seeing what we're seeing. Many of them serve, they absolutely know that if this was anybody else anywhere within the military, they would be fired. Spot on. And here we go, waiting for the next shoe to drop. Opinion columnist for the New York Times, David French.

Thank you so much. His latest piece for the Times is available to read online now. And coming up, the executive producer of CBS's 60 Minutes is stepping down amid attacks on the network from President Trump. We're going to dig into that decision and what it means for journalistic independence. That's ahead on Morning Joe. Welcome back, 43, past the hour. The top producer at the CBS News program, 60 Minutes, says he is stepping down from the show, citing encroachments on his journalistic independence.

In a memo to staff members obtained by NBC News, executive producer Bill Owens writes in part, "...over the past months, it has become clear that I would not be allowed to run the show as I have always run it. So having defended this show and what we stand for from every angle, over time with everything I could, I am stepping aside so the show can move forward. Owens' departure comes months after President Trump sued CBS for $20 billion. After an October interview with then-Vice President Kamala Harris, Trump claims the interview was deceptively edited. The network has denied that claim.

Trump has also called for CBS to lose its broadcast license. Joining us now, editor-in- chief for Semaphore, Ben Smith. You have a lot going on there, Ben. But let's talk about this first. I think this news at least hit the media community like a meteor. That was a message that Bill Owens was sending about what's happening at CBS. So what's happening at CBS? Yeah, I mean, this was the latest in a series of

You know essentially capitulations by media companies to pressure from from President Trump What's different from the environment in which we've operated for most of our careers in which by the way? They've been our share of media scandals and screw-ups and firings and quitting is that the way it is happening Now is there's pressure on the owners of media companies, whether it's Jeff Bezos at the Washington Post, Patrick Soon-Shong in Los Angeles, feeling pressure on their other interests to not annoy President Trump and changing their editorial policies, their content as a result. We reported last night that my colleague Max Taney reported that Owens quit after Sherry Redstone, the owner of the company, requested and looked at a list of stories about President Trump that

60 Minutes was planning to broadcast. This came after Trump complained about a 60 Minutes program about Ukraine. And, you know, and in 60 Minutes, you know, is, you know, the definitive television news magazine of an earlier era. And a huge symbolic moment, but Sherry Redstone's trying to sell this company requires federal approval for the deal. And these are the kind of deals that media owners are making right now. Yeah. So Ben, you've gotten there to the heart of the matter, which is that Paramount Global,

where Sherry Redstone is the chairwoman, is trying to sell to Skydance Media owned by Larry Ellison. Need FCC approval for that. Donald Trump could theoretically and likely use that as leverage to try to stop that sale going forward. So now that top-down pressure coming from Sherry Redstone and Paramount down to 60 minutes about the kinds of stories and the tone of the stories they're doing about Donald Trump. One way I heard it described was that this was Bill Owens just sending up a flare and really kind of falling on a grenade and

giving up the job that he's held so well for so many years to put pressure and to make a public spectacle of what's going on at his company and others. So do you think this changes anything about the deal that's coming perhaps for Paramount and about the way that 60 Minutes does its job? You know, I wonder, I mean, I think the real question is what David Ellison, who runs Sky Dance, is going to do. The purchaser has a lot of leverage here. And I think there is an illusion that they

can let the people they're buying it from sort of neuter the news organization, take the heat, take the money, and move on. And I think what you see is you buy a company. I mean, I think you saw this with CNN's parent company, that if you try to ignore a huge mess and highly politicized scandal in your news division, you're going to have a tough few years.

And I think it's incredibly naive that they think that they're just going to acquire this company, take the entertainment assets, have fun, and this whole thing will blow over. I think that's unlikely. So, Jim Vanahy, Ben does a nice job laying out why this is happening. But let's talk about the stakes here. Let's talk about the stakes for journalism, including this lawsuit that Trump has brought against 60 Minutes over what is, let's be clear, standard practice, editing for length. This is something that every television network does about any matter, not just about presidential

campaigns. If they were to fold here, if they were to settle, what a disturbing and chilling message it would send throughout the industry and throughout the way all of us do our jobs. Make no mistake, a bunch of big institutions are settling under blunt, direct pressure from the federal government. And I guess it's easy to look and say, oh, Jamie is one of those whiny journalists. Like, I'm not, or maybe I am, but I'm a big believer in the First Amendment. I'm a huge believer that both parties should be subject to extreme accountability and scrutiny

as long as it's done in a fair way. Bill Owens isn't just quitting because of a little gentle pressure. They've been doing a lot of really hard hitting interviews by people on the record to camera about what's happening in the Trump administration. Obviously the Trump administration doesn't like that, just like the Biden administration wouldn't want tough scrutiny. But for again, I can't say this enough for all of the the mega fans who love this and yeah screw CBS, yeah silence those people. Just wait, just wait until the other party does these exact

same things to you in silence. It's the type of accountability that you wish you had in a free and open democracy. And I think that's what's at stake. And it's very hard to get people to pay attention to it because the average person is more concerned about prices and their 401k. And I completely get that. But little by little, if you look at the commonality of what's happening with education institutions, what's happening with the media, what's happening with law firms, it's big institutions buckling to pressure by the federal government because they're worried about their own, either their

own pockets or their own power or their own prestige. Jim, to some degree, we even saw that at the beginning of after Liberation Day with companies that didn't want to speak out either, right? There is this chilling effect. Some people have compared it not to Hungary to me, but to Venezuela, where they saw the same thing with Hugo Chavez one by one going through the institutions. So talk to me about the World Economic Conference that you're holding with Semaphore in Washington this week, 200, I think it is, international economic leaders.

Some people look at the IMF spring meetings, but no, you are looking actually at the business leaders. Why are you doing it, and what do you hope they're going to tell us? Yeah, I mean, the World Economy Summit is a huge gathering of CEOs here in Washington. We've been doing it for a couple of years, but I mean, for a lot of the reasons that you were talking about earlier on the show, CEOs,

for whom coming to Washington had been an inconvenience, something they avoided, something they were able to avoid for many years, now they have to be here, becauseS. government plays such a central role in the global economy that obviously didn't begin with Trump. I mean, the IRA, Biden put enormous amounts of government money into the economy. But now the decisions of the president are for whether you're the economic leaders of France and Germany and Britain who will have or whether you're the CEOs of companies like Uber who will be on our stage, you have to know what's happening

here in Washington and have to try to understand it, which they hate, but which they will not, but which of course, as you said, there's a lot of pressure on them not to complain about. Wow. Semaphore's World Economy Summit kicks off today in Washington, D.C. Semaphore editor-in-chief Ben Smith, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. A few minutes before the top of the hour, time now to take a look at some of the other

stories making headlines this morning. Crews in New Jersey are fighting a fast-moving wildfire that has burned more than 3,000 acres. A stretch of the Garden State Parkway was shut down in Ocean County, and thousands of people were evacuated there. The fire is still far from contained, and the cause is under investigation. And NBC News has discovered three days before Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem's handbag was stolen while she dined at a Washington DC restaurant. Another woman at a nearby restaurant had her purse taken in a similar manner. It's not clear if the two incidents are connected, but officials are now

investigating. Noem's purse was stolen Sunday after a thief was able to scoot his chair close enough to slide the bag to board him, grab it, and leave the location. The purse contained Gnome's driver's license, passport, her DHS access badge, and about $3,000 in cash.