Morning Joe - Morning Joe 4/4/23

Episode Date: April 4, 2023

Former president's arraignment expected today

Our message is clear and simple. Control yourselves. New York City is our home, not a playground for your misplaced anger. And although we have no specific threats, people like Marjorie Taylor Greene, who is known to spread misinformation and hate speech, she stated she's coming to town. While you're in town, be on your best behavior. Okay, then New York City Mayor Eric Adams, just going right there with that warning ahead of an historic day in Manhattan.

Wow. Donald Trump, former president, will become the first former president to face criminal charges. We'll get a live report from outside the courthouse in just a moment. Meanwhile, there is new reporting this morning on how the Manhattan grand jury is impacting the Fulton County DA's investigation into election interference in Georgia. Also ahead, we will break down what is at stake today in Wisconsin as voters head to the laws of that state, which has become the most consequential swing state, along with Michigan and Pennsylvania in in America. We'll fully look into that. It is also an historic day in Europe. In a few hours, Finland officially joins NATO, a major move that strengthens the alliance and deals a huge setback to Russian

President Vladimir Putin. I would have I would have loved to get your dad's comment. Oh, my God. It's unbelievable. Yeah, no, I'd love to hear everything he has to say on Ukraine as well, which he wrote about in that book with David Ignatius and Brent Scowcroft, with a lot of concerns about goading Russia. Right. Years ago. Yeah. And that's a guy that spent his entire life pushing back on Russian aggression. Absolutely. Willie, a lot to talk about. I've got a lot to talk about regarding the OJ chase that was shown on TV for 12 hours yesterday. We'll get to basketball first, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to say something about that.

But UConn, man, they just, just dominant. Just a dominant team the last four games. They beat San Diego State last night to win the national championship. 76-59 was the final. They struggled at the beginning of the game and then kind of rolled through the rest of it. Got a little bit close at the end, but they pulled away. They won every game of this tournament by double digits.

It really was never in doubt. A team that was great for almost all of the season except for a stretch in January. But beyond that, they were just incredible. A balanced team, great defense, great passing, a great coach. And Dan Hurley, who now stamps his own legacy on the long legacy at UConn, the fifth national championship in UConn school history. And they are built to last. They're going to be around for a while with this group recruiting

and this coach. UConn are the national champions of college hoops. Yeah, a big, big, big win. And Jonathan O'Meara, along with the dominant UConn basketball Huskies, of course, you've got to look at the Red Sox starting pitching. And just ask yourself, has there ever been a more dominant, dominant stretch in the beginning of a season than what the Red Sox have put on the last four days? It's just breathtaking. You're taking a look at the New England sports scene here, Joe, and very different outcomes.

UConn, you know, I'm growing up, Storrs, Connecticut, this is a nowhere place. It's really not known for its sports program, and it's amazing. Both men's and women's teams have become the most dominant forces on both sides. Congrats to them. But as far as the Red Sox goes, man, every starting pitcher out there has just been lit up. You know, the bats have been alive, so they've managed to win two of their first four. But yesterday against a pretty terrible Pirates team, maybe the worst offense in the league, we blew an early lead, gave up seven runs, and took a pretty disheartening defeat.

You know, it's already, I don't want to say it's too time to panic, Joe, but I don't want to say it's not too soon to panic in terms of the state of the race. It's April 4th. Yeah, that's why I'm putting it out there. It's maybe time. OK, could be time. Jonathan brought up stores, Connecticut. This is not a nothing place. The cows would disagree, as well as the students of UConn. Exactly. And there are many. Well, I know I spent a lot of time in stores. I know you did. I covered the Yukon women back in the days of Rebecca Lobo and Gino Auriemma. And even dressed up as a Yukon fan with face paint and everything. And did a story for Channel 3 Eyewitness News on what it's like to be a Husky fan. Okay.

Well, we want to see those clips. Yeah, no. Absolutely not. We got to see those clips. Yeah, no. Absolutely not. We got to pull the tape. We also should pull the tape of the OJ chase and do a split screen with the Trump arrival in New York. So Joe has an issue with the plane. I do. And listen, I say this knowing, first of all, that everybody at every network, I'm sure they do the best they can do.

And you make a judgment call when it's live. And, you know, we we, of course, made so many mistakes in 2015 and 2016. So we say that with all too, too, too much knowledge of how much Trump manipulates the news cycles, just as he did when he put out a tweet a couple of Sundays ago that the entire world chased for a couple of weeks. Well, yesterday we saw Trump's plane landing in LaGuardia for, you know, it looked like 20 minutes. It was a shot that looked like Space Shuttle Challenger or something like that, or Columbiaia returning and it just we were on it every network was on it forever and then it lands and we're on the trump plane and we gave the guy willie i would guess 40 to 50 million dollars of of uh of earned media uh and and we saw baggage

handlers we saw people walking on and off the plane while on top of it, everybody's just saying things that we all know. Like President Biden was traveling places, too. Well, exactly. Go to the video. Say, you know what? Trump's landing in New York. When we have a shot of him, we'll go to the video and have him walking off off the plane. But but seriously, I will say I went out to Jack's Jack's baseball game. And you'll be glad to know Jack two for three. Wow. There we go. And I forgot. And his team. Oh, his team just rolled. They're playing championship game today. So very excited. But everybody out there, whether they were Trump supporters,

whether they were DeSantis supporters, a lot of DeSantis supporters, whether they were whether they were Biden supporters, they were all making fun of the networks for staying on Trump's plane. And they all looked at me and said, didn't you guys learn anything from 2016? And this even coming from Trump supporters who are laughing laughing going, it was just outrageous. They were like we saw baggage handlers for 30 minutes. And you know what Trump's doing? Well, that's going on. We'll have Lamir jump in in a second. He's got the TV screens up. So he goes, I'm just going to stay here because they're showing my plane. They're showing my logo. Absolutely. They're showing the American american flag and i am trouncing

everybody in earned media and it's not costing me a dime well you're right it all starts with the tweet completely invented that he was going to be arrested he said it'll be tuesday raises a ton of money off that begins his martyrdom begins the storyline that he's being persecuted politically and then for the next two weeks that story is fed and his lead grows over Ron DeSantis in the polls and Republicans coalesce around him. They rush in to defend him. Ron DeSantis, who's potentially going to run against him, is defending him out there in public. He's just pulling this trick on everybody. It's crazy. And you're right, Joe. Today is historic. We've never seen this. A former president of the United States will be processed as a criminal defendant. He's going to go in and get fingerprinted. He might get a mugshot. We don't know yet. This is a big deal. This is every second of his day documented. And we're hearing this morning he

might take Fifth Avenue to the courthouse. Others say it could be Park Avenue. It might even be Madison. Stay with us to see how he gets down to the courthouse. Today is a huge deal and we will cover it as such, Jonathan Lemire. But the prelude, the lead up, the story that Donald Trump created with that first tweet continued yesterday. Right. And of course, you would take the FDR drive, but you can't have onlookers on the FDR. So therefore, if he's looking to create a spectacle, you head down the middle of Manhattan. No. And to Joe's point, that would happen all the time when the traveling press pool would be with Trump on his old campaign plane or on Air Force One, where he would idle. And they'd have the TV on, usually Fox News, and he would watch the coverage of the plane. And he would even talk to people next to him like, hey, there's the plane. And like, yeah,

he would still marvel over that and how he would gain attention. And of course, Air Force One, anytime a presidential aircraft touches down, that's somewhat newsworthy. We can certainly debate whether or not yesterday was certainly not the extended coverage of it as we saw him roll on the Grand Central Parkway towards Manhattan. But this is what he's already done, is that he is he is completely taken out, taken up all the oxygen in the political field, particularly on the Republican side. To Willie's point, already getting pledges of of loyalty from his potential opponents there who dare not criticize him and only criticize the Manhattan D.A. We've seen his poll numbers go up. We have seen his fundraising go up. And we do see the media potentially making some of the mistakes that it made in 2016. We need to be doing a better job, all of us, you know, going forward as he has now enters, not just as a

presidential candidate, Willie, he's a presidential candidate who has been criminally indicted. He will be arraigned as of this afternoon. And let's not, of course, forget he's also an insurrectionist candidate and still has not admitted that he lost the last time. At least a correction. Madison, of course, goes uptown. I meant to say Broadway. Forgive me on that. But that was some of the coverage we were hearing yesterday. But let's talk about what's happening today. Put the plane shots yesterday behind us. This is something we've never seen before, as The New York Post is putting it this morning. It is the day of the Don. A former president of the United States, Donald Trump, is going to stand before a judge and hear charges against him. He's not going to get the cuffs.

It's been reported he's not getting cuffs. He's getting the kid glove treatment of what this would be. He's getting to go at his appointed time. He's going early before the hearing. He could have done this over Zoom, but that wouldn't be as good of a show. So he really is recreating the Trump show with turning himself in. It's just a repeat of the reality show. And it's a story. And I actually, you know, I'm torn on how to cover this because it is news. It is huge news. It's all that people want to talk about. People don't want to talk about the tornadoes that are ravaging one half of the country. They want to talk about the ex-president

having to go for his day in court. Yeah. And Joe, Donald Trump was summoned to the courthouse. We're not sure if he actually could have done it over Zoom. And we don't know what kind of exposure he'll get in the courtroom. They say no cameras except for still cameras. But surely we'll get some kind of images out of that room today. Yeah, there is a report from Rolling Stone, single source right now. It'll be a great question to ask D.A. Bragg whether Trump could have done this over Zoom or not. But again, only a single source story from Rolling Stone right now. But that's a good question to ask DA Bragg. No, this is a critically important story. It's the first time a president has been indicted. And it's something that needs to be covered. It's extraordinarily important.

But doing three hours of hero shots, and if he walks down to the courthouse, seriously, anybody that takes that live, you need to report in-kind contributions to the Donald Trump campaign against Ron DeSantis because you're just providing hero shots for a guy that's going to get indicted. Do what you do normally. Get him going into the courthouse. Get him going out of the courthouse. It doesn't have to be the O.J. Bronco chase. And that's what we had yesterday. And God, I hope it's not what we we have today, because the story should be covered. All right. But the story should be covered, not Donald Trump's setup setting you up, which again, again, we we've been criticized a lot for our coverage in 2015 and 2016. We take that on our shoulders. We we we learn from it. And I

would hope the media would learn from it, too. You know, showing every primetime presser, every primetime this, every primetime no, no. And they certainly, again, it was just I just I couldn't believe what I was seeing on TV yesterday. And I'm hoping today they've learned from yesterday that if he does a glory walk down down Broadway, that that it's not covered for three hours. Right. So what you're talking about is the hour walk or the hour car drive down to the courthouse. You know, back to my days in local news, you always watch the person walking into the courthouse and walking out and you see if they say something. You're talking about the drawn out, you know, step by step, the car making the red light. That's ridiculous.

I'm talking about the circus that he's brought to town, as the New York Post says. And if he's going to do a circus, that's his business. It's fine. I'm very interested to hear if he had the people, but people don't, but people don't need to be covering every step of the circus, get him walking in, walking out. So let's get the plan for the day. Joining us from the Manhattan courthouse is NBC News national correspondent Gabe Gutierrez. Gabe, how do we expect today to unfold? Hi, Mika. Good morning. Well, you mentioned the circus-like atmosphere. That is what Donald Trump's legal team argued in a court filing for why they did not want cameras in the courtroom, well, guess what? The circus-like atmosphere is already here. There is tons of assembled media here. I can hear the helicopter buzzing in the distance. And I have seen driving here, flashing lights, a huge security presence. You can see the steel barricades here, all in preparation for this spectacle that we are expecting later this

morning. Now, you mentioned overnight the judge ruling that cameras would not be allowed inside the courtroom except for still cameras right before the arraignment. A group of photographers will be allowed to snap still photographs briefly. Also, cameras will be allowed in the 15th floor in the hallway, but unclear how clear of a shot we'll get of the former president. Now, in terms of a timetable, former President Trump is expected to drive from Trump Tower down here to lower Manhattan sometime between 10 a.m. and noon, and this arraignment is scheduled for 2.15.

What will happen is that he'll be fingerprinted and processed inside the building behind me. We understand, however, that he will not get a DNA swab, and it's unclear at this point whether there will be a mugshot. It looks like that will not be the case. But the arraignment at 2.15, afterwards, he is set to depart, then to Mar-a-Lago, where he's set to deliver remarks later tonight. In terms of security, Mika, I heard you play a part of Eric Adams' remarks in your introduction, warning protesters to control themselves. Well, as you said, Marjorie Taylor Greene is scheduled to headline a protest here right in front of the courthouse at about 10.30

this morning. The NYPD on very high alert because the district attorney's office has gotten so many threats over the past couple of weeks. But so far, we have not seen any large protests materialize. There were some crowds as the former president left Mar-a-Lago yesterday. But so far, none of that support, at least so far, here in lower Manhattan. Again, we're awaiting that arraignment at 2.15 this afternoon, Nika and Joe. NBC's Gabe Gutierrez, thank you very much. And of course, 215, again, that'll be history. Yeah, that'll be history. That should be covered. Not Donald Trump,

like flying in on an airplane for 30 minutes and us watching baggage handlers for 30 minutes while it's affixed on his plane. And he's set us all up like fools again. Let's bring in right now NBC News national affairs analyst and co-host of Showtime's The Circus. Speaking of The Circus, John Heilman, also former U.S. attorney and senior FBI official Chuck Rosenberg. He's an NBC News analyst. Chuck, we're going to get to you in one second. I want to first go, though, to the guy that has a show called The Circus and ask you about The Circus that played out yesterday on news channels everywhere. Yeah, I mean, Joe, I heard you guys talking about this, and I couldn't agree with you more. And then the general sentiments expressed.

It's an interesting thing. One of the most inspiring things, I think, if you listen to the great legal minds who are kind of explaining to us what's happening this weekend and not just the importance of this, the unprecedented nature of it, but also how it's going to play out, is this constant refrain of Donald Trump is going to have to come to and surrender himself. He's going to be arraigned. He's going to sit in front of a judge today. And he's going to be treated, people say over and over again, just like any other citizen who faced dissimilar charges. That's kind of the standard that we aspire to, that he's no higher or lower than anybody else. The former president still held accountable under the law. And he's going to go through this process and these procedures just like anyone else would. And

of course, we all sit there and think, well, not really. I mean, the two things are kind of intention, right? The former, the nature of a former president going through this for the first time. There's nothing normal about that. And certainly it's, it's Donald Trump. And I think that's the challenge for, for our, for our business, right? Is trying to, is constantly trying to stay on that, walk that tightrope of treating him like any other citizen who would be going through this. We'll also recognize the extraordinary nature of the proceedings. And I think we can just ask ourselves, and the distinction that you made earlier, I think is the right one. You know, this is historic and we have to cover it, but my God, you know,

there's nothing relevant or historic about the trip on the LAE, you know, or on the, on the, on the, you know, in from LaGuardia, the movements are not part of the story. They are, they're, they're just us kind of, when we do this, it's just us kind of filling time in a way that benefits Trump and doesn't exalts him in a way like makes him into a king. Well, he's so important. Do you remember the story that you used to tell? And that's the one we've gone too far. John, I was thinking yesterday, the story that you told, you guys wrote about, and I think it was 2016, you told me about where he was at the Iowa State Fair and you all were talking and interviewing other candidates.

And then the Trump helicopter buzzed on top and circled around, or maybe it was a plane circled around and everybody just was a plane circled around and everybody just stopped. And they just looked up helicopter and everybody's eyes stayed fixed. And here you had all of these people that were running all of these. And he just used that. And I was thinking about that yesterday. And I and Trump commented afterwards, I never realized it would be this easy. And so when I saw that happening yesterday and saw the press still seven years later affixed on a logo on a plane

and not being able to take their eyes off of it, I thought, well, seven years later, we've still learned nothing. Yeah, it's like that moment, Hillary Clinton was actually at the fair that day. And it was like everyone in her entourage. And also there were others who were running for president there and staffs. Everyone was sort of awestruck. And it was just you heard this utterance where people looked up in the sky.

I was like, oh, it's Trump. It's Trump. The helicopter just got it. It gave him this different status in the race among his competitors, not just among the media. And you're exactly right. It's like yesterday. It was like he was running the helicopter play again. And and it's it's a thing that the press can easily avoid. A lot of hard calls to make in terms of what to cover and what not to cover over the course of the next 24 hours, 48 hours into the future. That if you're if you ask yourself at any given moment, am I just falling for the helicopter stunt again? And if the answer to that question is yes, turn away. So Chuck Rosenberg, let's put the big gavel circus, as the New York Post is calling it this morning, to the side and talk about what we're actually going to see around 215 down in

lower Manhattan at 100 Center Street. You have a former president of the United States, a man who wants to be president again, who will be processed as a criminal defendant. What else do you expect to see today, and specifically in terms of the charges against him? Yeah, Willie, good questions. So first, in a routine case, what's going to happen today is completely routine.

It's just an arraignment. And as court proceedings go, rather uninteresting. You show up on time. The judge comes out on the bench. The charges are unsealed. The judge advises the defendant, in this case, Mr. Trump, of what the charges are. That's probably when we're going to learn it, too. And then it's rather quick. He sets bond. In this case, I'm imagining that Mr. Trump will be released on personal recognizance. And the judge might set some other dates for motions or a status hearing, maybe even a trial date. What happens before and after is up to, I guess, us and how we talk about it and how we cover it. What happens in the courtroom is up to the judge. And it's really important to me that Mr. Trump be

treated like anybody else inside the courtroom, that he be given all his rights, that the judge run a dignified courtroom, that the proceedings start on time, and that people respect the power of our courts. That's what I'm looking for. I'm also really interested in seeing the indictment, something I imagine I'll be reading cover to cover when it's finally unsealed. So there are other legal cases that Donald Trump is dealing with, including the documents issue, the Mar-a-Lago documents. And there are new developments this week that Donald Trump might have participated in possible obstruction with some of those materials that were at Mar-a-Lago.

During an interview with Fox News last week, Donald Trump was asked whether he would personally look through boxes of documents from his presidency while they were stored at Mar-a-Lago. Here's his response last week. I can't imagine you ever saying, bring me some of the boxes that we brought back from the White House. I'd like to look at them. Did you ever do that? I would have the right to do that. There's nothing wrong with it.

But I know you. I don't think you would do it. I don't have a lot of time, but I would have the right to do that. I would do that. All right, let me move on. Remember this. This is the Presidential Records Act. I have the right to take stuff.

Do you know that they ended up paying Richard Nixon, I think, $18 million for what he had? They did the Presidential Records Act. I have the right to take stuff. I have the right to look at stuff. Willie. You do? Willie. Sean was trying to help.

You're allowed to take stuff? Meatball Don. He was trying. Oh, wait, that's Meatball Ron. Sean was trying to help Trump time and again. OK, but I know you wouldn't do that. Sure, I would. OK, let's move.

And then he goes, let's move on. And he's like, no, no, I want to. I want to completely prove the federal government's case. And then he goes on and proves the federal government's case, which, of course, is not allowed to take stuff more relevant now, Willie, after the Washington Post story that broke this weekend. If you're the prosecutor, the special counsel in this case, it's just clip and save these interviews, clip and save, clip and save. Some of it amounting to a partial confession. Remember, it was last September in a different interview with Sean Hannity when Donald Trump said you can declassify

documents just by thinking about them. As former president of the United States, if he thought about them being declassified, then they, in fact, would be declassified. We should ask Chuck Rosenberg, as a former prosecutor himself, if you are the special counsel, if you are Jack Smith, what are you making of these interviews that Donald Trump is giving again, especially the ones to Sean Hannity?

You know, I was thinking, Willie, about when I was a federal prosecutor preparing for trial, I would literally have a manila folder, which I would label my cross-examination file. And every time I found a document or someone said something or something that I thought could be useful, I'd put it in that file. The file here would be enormous. I mean, as prosecutors, we collect stuff.

We hold on to stuff. We never know exactly when we're going to need stuff. But Mr. Trump, from a prosecutor's perspective, if you're preparing for cross-examination, is a gift that keeps on giving. And so they're going to have a lot of information, a lot of clips, a lot of the things he's said to choose from, whether or not he gets on the stand, whether or not they ever get to use it. We'll save that question for another day. But prosecutors are always collecting a cross-examination file, and Mr. Trump can't help himself. He always talks about Mr. Trump, and that just makes the file bigger and bigger

and bigger. He just can't help himself. And I want us to play this clip again, because again, in light of the Washington Post reporting this weekend, it becomes even more relevant. Let's play this clip again in case you all will, first of all, miss Donald Trump's confession and to miss Sean Hannity trying to move him along. And he just wouldn't do it because he's like going, no, I like my hand on the hot stove so much. I'm going to put the other hand on the hot stove. Run it, TJ. I can't I can't imagine you ever say bring me some of the boxes that we brought back from the White House. I'd like to look at them. Did you ever do that?

I would have the right to do that. There's nothing wrong with it. But I know you. I don't think you would do it. I don't have a lot of time, but I would have the right to do that. There's nothing wrong with it. But I know you. I don't think you would do it. I don't have a lot of time, but I would have the right to do that. I would do that. All right, let me move on. Remember this. This is the Presidential Records Act. I have the right to take stuff.

Do you know that they ended up paying Richard Nixon, I think, $18 million for what he had? They did the Presidential Records Act. I have the right to take stuff. I have the right to look at stuff. I have the right to take stuff and look at stuff even after, as The Washington Post suggests, federal investigators and the feds try to get him back. And federal investigators, The Post reports, have new and significant evidence which shows that after the subpoena was delivered, Trump was rummaging through boxes of the documents in his home because, Elise, he wanted to keep certain things in his possession that the federal government said he had to return to them. And Joe, this is where Donald Trump could really get in trouble because that's obstruction. And he differentiates himself from other former officials who might have a claim of inadvertently removing classified documents and having classified documents in their personal possession

by the fact that he doesn't make good and make amends. And he continues to try to obstruct the government's case. And so you have this case happening in New York City, which one Republican operative called the Mickey Mouse paperwork case. But then you've got the classified document case and how Donald Trump has taken it possibly to the next level if he hasn't been forthright with investigators. And then from there, also, you've got Georgia and then E.G. Carroll next month. So while today is a big deal, there's plenty of other legal action to watch with Donald Trump. And Joe, people I've talked to in Trump's orbit in recent days, you know, offer sort of two sides to how they feel about Manhattan. Yes, they think this could be a short-term political benefit for

Trump. They also acknowledge that, of course, Trump doesn't really want to be indicted. No one does. He's concerned. He spent his whole life trying to avoid criminal prosecution. Here it is. But they also acknowledge they feel like this is a matter that can be dealt with. They think more legal peril lies elsewhere. And certainly the two that they say to me, they're most worried about Georgia, which we expect we'll hear about in about a month's time. And then this one here, because, yes, it's about the differences between how Joe Biden and Mike Pence handled their classified document matters. And this one, they cooperated. They returned the documents. Donald Trump document matters. And this one, they cooperated. They returned the documents. Donald Trump did not. And they feel like there is there's a real vulnerability here for obstruction. And Jack Smith seems to be working his way up, you know,

in his investigation and closing in, although perhaps he could save the taxpayers money and time by just DVR and Fox News and therefore present his case to the grand jury. Right. You've got your confession. You don't need depositions. You don't need interrogatories. Just just DVR Fox News at night whenever Trump talks and you're in good shape. Chuck, I'm curious if you agree with with those on the inside that Jonathan O'Meara has talked to. Of course, understanding that we still don't know what DA Bragg has. We have now, everybody's been talking about this indictment being strong or weak, being an embarrassment or being a final call to justice. We have no idea what this is going to be. So we lay that on the table right now, just like we don't know exactly

what George is going to be. But we have an idea. Same thing with the documents case. Still looking at these things. Do you agree with the assessment not only of people inside Trump world, but also with a lot of legal analysts that right now he seems from the fact patterns that are laid before us in the media incomplete, but the fact patterns laid before us in the media, incomplete, but the fact patterns laid before us in the media and the law in these jurisdictions, relevant jurisdictions, that the Georgia case and the documents case, particularly on the obstruction of returning the documents, seem to be the two cases that could provide Donald Trump the gravest legal peril. Yeah, I think that's right, Joe.

And remember, with respect to the documents case, when the FBI executed the search warrant at Mar-a-Lago, they went forward on three predicate offenses. One of them at the time was obstruction, right? So the FBI had enough information at the time to include in the affidavit their concerns about obstruction. And as a prosecutor, that's something we always look for. First, because it's illegal, but second, because it also evinces a consciousness of guilt. There's no reason to move stuff or destroy stuff or hide stuff or counsel people not to tell the truth if you haven't done anything

wrong. And so if you're trying to turn a weak case into a strong case for the government, obstructing justice is one way of doing that. So I agree generally that the case in New York seems less important. That doesn't make it weak. And I know that's something that Mika and I talked about a couple of days ago. It's not necessarily a weak case. The evidence could be compelling. It could be corroborated. There could be a lot of it. But in terms of charges, it's less serious. How do we know that? Well, for one, the underlying offense, and we'll see whether or not Mr. Bragg actually charges it, is a misdemeanor. By classification, a relatively low-level crime. If we see felony charges, and I expect we will,

they'll probably be class E felonies under New York state law. Again, a relatively low classification of felony. Doesn't mean these charges don't matter. It doesn't mean he won't be held to account. But I agree generally, Joe, with your supposition that the cases in Georgia and the cases under investigation by Jack Smith, the special counsel, are probably weightier. All right. Former U.S. attorney Chuck Rosenberg, as always, we greatly appreciate your time. Thank you for being with us now. We are on the other side of this clip we're about to play. Kids, please stick around because we have your favorite game show coming up in about 30 seconds. But first, let's go to these commercials from our sponsor. I can't I can't imagine you ever saying bring me some of the boxes that we brought back from the White House. I'd like to look at them. Did you ever do that? I would have

the right to do that. There's nothing wrong with it. But I know you. I don't think you would do it. I don't have a lot of time, but I would have the right to do that. I would do that. All right, let me move on. Remember this.

This is the Presidential Records Act. I have the right to take stuff. Do you know that they ended up paying Richard Nixon, I think, $18 million for what he had? They did the Presidential Records Act. I have the right to take stuff. I have the right to look at stuff. And now, kids, it's that time of the morning. If it's 634 a.m., you know, it's time for everybody's favorite game show, Confession or Projection. And let's bring on our special guest this morning to help answer that question. The circus is John Heilman.

John, thank you so much. It's very exciting having somebody who's on Match Game 75, 76 and 78. But this morning, it's confession or projection. Was Donald Trump confessing or projecting? Joe, you make an excellent replacement for Gene Rayburn, I have to say. Thank you so much. I think in this case, I think in this case is confession. It's confession. And one of the things we also learn in that clip, you know, the Fox News people occasionally say, the Fox News people occasionally say that, hey, you know, our primetime hosts

are not actually journalists. That's not actually news we do in primetime. That's entertainment. The best evidence for that claim being true. They say that in their legal pleadings. That's correct. And the best evidence for that claim is Sean Hannity's behavior here. When's the last time you saw, Joe, a journalist in the middle of an interview when the subject is confessing to a crime, the journalist saying, let's move on, as opposed to, excuse me, sir, would you like to, let's

spend some time on that topic. Rather extraordinary performance. I mean, even by the low standards that we apply to Hannity, that was a kind of amazing, amazing performance on his part, but definitely a confession. And I will say, in terms of the politics of all this, on the last scene of last Sunday's circus, we had a bunch of lawyers in the room and talked to them. And I was struck by this, asking these lawyers, Andrew Weissman was on a number of other people. And I said, hey, what's the chance that any of these cases that Trump either has been indicted in or might be indicted in, or might end up in court before election day of 2024. And the Bragg case, for example, we might not even see that case. That case may not see the ends. The trial may not even begin

before the election in 2024. And the one case that there was consensus on is the obstruction case around the classified documents, because federal cases move faster. This is, according to many, a pretty straightforward case where a lot of people think that it's becoming clear that the special counsel has Trump dead to rights. And there's the rocket docket that moves things along more quickly. You could imagine, according to these experts, that that case could not only be heard, but decided before Election Day. It's not inconceivable in that one case that Trump could actually be convicted before Election Day. And, you know, I mean, just remember the Manafort case, four months, that's all it took. The Manafort case in federal court. Yeah, I mean, far different, I think, in federal courts and state courts or even local courts.

And so I think I think you're right. Also, when the feds charge you, you have two options. You can usually plea or you can have a guilty verdict because they usually make sure they have it pretty lined up before those charges come. So we'll see what happens. But John Heilman, thank you so much. Willie, Willie, we do we try, of course, here on Morning Joe to avoid bright, shiny objects are talking about other cable news hosts. So I think the the the takeaway from the Sean Hannity interview actually is Donald Trump. And you do have a confession there. And and even as as Hannity is trying to move him along, Trump just keeps going back saying, basically, I did it. I did it. And I would do it again. It was Chris Farley in that Saturday Night Live scene when he's in jail. Yes, I did it. And I do it again. Well, that was Trump. And then once again,

claiming that he has this right that he just doesn't have, especially when the FBI, the Justice Department says, have you returned everything to us and you direct your lawyers, which, again, based on what we know in the news coverage now, unless the lawyers went off on their own, which they claim they did not. But Donald Trump directs his lawyers to lie and say he's returned everything. That's a crime. That's a crime. And there's no getting around that. Respectfully, when Sean Hannity goes to Mar-a-Lago for an interview, it's not to expose Donald Trump.

It's to usually to help him along. But Donald Trump did all the work himself in that interview. And we should point out he cites the Presidential Records Act. The Presidential Records Act says exactly the opposite of what he claims it says, which is that the documents belong to the American public and they are not the personal property of the president, the United States that was passed in the late 70s after Watergate to kind of change that rule. So he's leaning on a law that actually works against him in this case. It might have been nice if perhaps he was corrected on that, you know, but that was not going to happen. Well, again, we're looking

at the president and right now looked at it, especially since the documents case. Yeah. Yeah. And again, Elise, I think if you if you listen to the reporting of Jonathan Lemire, you listen to Chuck Rosenberg, just one of the best in the business. OK, yeah, this Manhattan D.A., we'll see what that indictment is. We're not sure how strong that case is going to be, but we are we are fairly sure, Jonathan. And then we'll go to Elise to wrap up the segment. We are pretty sure the documents case is the strongest and the Georgia case not far behind. Yeah, that seems to be the consensus both in Trump world, but also legal experts. I mean, January 6th case, obviously so momentous, but just there's a sense that it'll be harder to

harder to prove, harder, harder to prove. That's right. So these two here, the documents, at least the obstruction part of the documents and then what's coming in Georgia. And we've been hearing this week that there's a sense there that they're they're zeroing in potentially on moving on an indictment, at least maybe in early May. That's the chatter unconfirmed. But that seems to be the growing speculation out of Georgia. Well, and the Georgia case is so powerful because you have Trump in his own words saying things that are just completely inappropriate, if not downright illegal, about the election and votes to Georgia's secretary of state. And the jury forewoman, the grand jury forewoman, who had a lot to say after that grand jury, she hinted that there's a second Trump tape that we haven't even heard. So hearing what Donald Trump did in Georgia in the election and what misdeeds he was encouraging elected officials to do at his own behest. That's really powerful. It is. It is really powerful and so interesting

a phrase that Donald Trump loves to throw around whenever he's caught saying something improper on the telephone. It was a perfect call. It was a perfect call. Well, this call in Georgia, which seems to get worse every time you hear it, this call in Georgia was the perfect call for prosecutors. So we'll see. Again, we're hearing early May. It's certainly taken a long time for Georgia to move. It's been over a couple of years. So we'll see what that timeline is. But, Miki, I'm just curious, as we go into today, what are your thoughts?

What are you looking for? Well, actually, my thought is it's a very sad day for America. And I know you were talking about everything that we've learned since 2016. But regardless of what side, what party you're in, regardless of anything, it's just really sad that a former president is getting indicted and that it may not be the only one. And I think we should just I think moving forward into the day, I just want to remain measured and watch the facts as they come out. That's all we can do today. I completely agree. The thing about today's case is, again, two things can be true at one time. If you believe no man's above the law and that

you look at this prosecution and you see the indictment and it seems to be a very strong case against Donald Trump, then, of course, that can be true. At the same time, the people say we've crossed the line here and the consequences could be grave. That's what we'll be talking about. For future presidents. That is true. And so often we sit here and not just not just on TV, but also in newspapers. And it's always got to be black or white. This leader's got to be good or bad.

This law has to be this or that. This case has to be strong or weak. Well, sometimes two things can be true at once. And I think you're exactly right here. If you don't see this as a sad day for America, and if you don't see this as the crossing of a line that can cause serious problems in the future, well, I don't think you understand American history and can't project out forward. And at the same time, again, in this country, no man's above the law. And so those are the two things that we balance, not only in this case, but in Georgia, in the documents case and in the January 6th case. So we have a lot more other news to cover still ahead on Morning Joe and the ongoing clash between Florida governor and Ron DeSantis and one of the state's largest employers, Disney.

The company is fighting back. We'll have the new comments from Disney's chief executive. Plus, there's a ton at stake today in Wisconsin's Supreme Court election. We'll have a live report from that battleground state as voters head to the polls today. And in a major blow to Russian President Vladimir Putin, Finland is set to become the 31st member of NATO. Admiral James Tavridis will be here to weigh in on that historic development. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. Ahead of his scheduled arraignment, former President Trump flew from Florida to New York and landed at LaGuardia Airport. Yeah, he was smart. Nothing helps you ease into prison like spending time at LaGuardia. I'm watching the world wake up from history.

Right here. Luther King Jr. was killed tonight in Memphis, Tennessee. Shot in the face as he stood alone on the balcony of his hotel room. He died in a hospital an hour later. Last night, he said this. I don't know what will happen now. We've got some difficult days ahead. But it really doesn't matter with me now.

Because I've been to the mountaintop. I don't mind. Like anybody, I would like to live a long life. Longevity has its place. But I'm not concerned about that now. I just want to do God's will. And he's allowed me to go up to the mountain. And I've looked over.

And I've seen over and I've seen the promised land I may not get there with you but I want you to know tonight that we as a people will get to the promised land so I'm happy tonight I'm not worried about anything. I'm not fearing any man. My eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord.

That is the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., one of the most poignant and tragically prophetic speeches in American history. The next evening, exactly 55 years ago today, the civil rights icon was assassinated on the balcony at the Lorraine Motel in Memphis, Tennessee. And joining us now is Dr. King's son, Martin Luther King III, and his wife, Andrea Waters King. They lead the Drum Major Institute, a nonprofit community action group founded by Dr. King. Also with us here in New York, the host of MSNBC's Politics Nation, president of the National Action Network, Reverend Al Sharpton. Great to have you all with us. Good morning to you. Martin, I'll begin with you before we talk about the legacy and where we are today. You were a 10-year-old boy on this day 55 years ago. What are your memories? Well, my memories are not just really sketchy, but I thought I was dreaming when I first heard on the news,

which would have been this evening at 7 o'clock, that my father had been shot and later on learned that he died. I was hoping that it was a dream, but obviously it became very true. And I think the challenge today is 55 years later, what really is happening in our country? He taught us how to navigate through conflict without being destructive. We've lost civility in the political space. And he taught us how to engage, how to disagree without being disagreeable. And we've got to reintroduce that in our society. He often said, we must learn nonviolence or we might face nonexistence. It feels like we are close to what he was saying back then in my personal judgment. We are better than what we are seeing right now as a nation. And there are so many issues that

we've got to address. But what I do know is it takes a few good women and men to bring about change. He and my mother throughout his life, throughout her life, they showed us that. Andrea, we were sitting around the set watching that speech the evening of April 3rd, and it just sends chills up your spine. It was like he had a vision. It was like he somehow knew what was coming the next day and was imploring everyone to carry on his work and to carry on his dream. So what is the state of that dream today here in 2023, 55 years after Dr. King's assassination. Well, you know, it's interesting because one of the things that I keep reflecting on, even as we were driving to the studio here and looking at the areas in which he grew up and just imagining, you know, him walking these streets and the thing that keeps coming up for me is what could have been,

you know, what could have been for Martin and his siblings and his family, what could have been for our daughter, his granddaughter, and also what could have been for our nation and our world, I do think that we, in a very real sense, are all dreams of the dreamer. And it really is now up to each one of us to continue to find our place within the King legacy, to find our place within the dream, and to truly, once and for all, realize the dream and to truly once and for all realize the dream. Rev, you are one of the people who picked up on that dream as he was imploring people to do on April the 3rd, 1968. So from where you're sitting, the issues that we face today, some that Dr. King couldn't even have foreseen,

how are we doing with his dream? I think we have a long way to go, but I think that we should give credit to Dr. King and Mrs. King. They brought us a long way. You know, the fact that today, ironically, on the 55th marking of his assassination, Donald Trump, former president, is being arraigned by a black district attorney and investigated in Georgia by a black woman district attorney. That didn't automatically happen. That happened because of people like Dr. King. And I think what Martin and Andrea and all of us have come behind is to try to continue that in the spirit of redemption. We are not rejoicing Donald Trump's being arraigned,

but we are saying that everyone must be accountable. And for me to see Donald Trump walk in the same building that the Central Park Five, who he called on face to face a death penalty, had to walk in 32 years ago. We were maligned for standing up for them means that Dr. King was right, that the arc of the universe is long, but it bends toward justice. So I think, as Andrea said, we've got to continue a long fight that we may not even see the end like Dr. King did, but it's our job to keep the fight going. Next week at our National Action Network convention, which Martin and Andrea is joining, Vice President Harris and nine members of the Cabinet to continue to fight about civil rights and human rights. We're going to talk about launching going back to Washington 60 years after the March on Washington.

This August was when he did. I have a dream speech. Where's the dream now? Not only for blacks, but blacks, but women, but Native Americans, but Latinos, but LGBTQ. So we're committed to that. And I think that for the last 25 years, Martin and I have worked closely together, and he put me close with his mother. And, Martin, talk about where we want to bring this, where it's not a commemoration but a continuation. Yes, Rev. We understand normally an anniversary would be just that, you observing

what happened in the past. We have got to quadruple our efforts as it relates to the breakdown that is occurring in our nation, communities not getting along. As I said, nonviolence to me is so important at this particular juncture, where we're seeing gun violence go up. My father was assassinated. And yet what our society is doing is saying, let's bring more guns. There's a sickness about that. I'm not suggesting people shouldn't be able to protect themselves. But if your solution is more guns, darkness will never put out darkness. Only light can do that. Violence will never put out violence. Only nonviolence and love can do that. Dad taught us that. Mother reinforced it, and we learned it as children. And where we are today is we've got to take some dramatic, positive action, not negative action.

We're seeing all the negativity all the time. We're inundated with negativity, in fact. But yet there still is hope. The hope and the reality is when we come together on August 26th, on that Saturday, just a day or two before the actual day, which is a Monday, we are encouraging hundreds of thousands of people to come to Washington to say that we're going to fight for voting rights. We're going to make sure people have permanent voting rights. We're going to fight to address responsible gun legislation. We're going to fight to create community. Dad's last book, Where Do We Go From Here? Chaos of

Community, is so prevalent. We are seeing chaos. We must build community. You know, Reverend Al, Martin Luther King Jr. meant so much, not only to you, but so many civil rights leaders. And there's a great lesson for all of us. Of course, as we look back, he has achieved this modern sainthood that even those who support policies that are the antithesis of what Martin Luther King Jr. would have supported still quote him, still revere him. But I remember having Tavis Smiley on the show for a book, Death of the King. And I remember it was the first time, actually, that I learned just how difficult those final years were for this hero. And that he walked through the valley of the shadow of death.

He was in the wilderness for quite some time, where, you know, we always say two things can be true at one time. Martin Luther King Jr., and it's impossible for us to believe this today in 2023, he was being attacked by all sides. The left thought he was too conservative. The right thought he was a communist. A lot of people in the civil rights community thought his time had passed. And yet it is his time, his words, his life that will be remembered centuries from now as as as the man who helped fulfill

the promise of our founding. No, I think that that is what made him great. You know, I joined SCLC Operation Breadbasket in New York because I was born and raised in New York. I was not of the South. It wasn't popular because my contemporaries were much more, quote, militant. And so I understand as I got older, the kind of attacks Dr. King had to take from blacks that said he was too moderate. The last time he was in New York, he came to Harlem to install Y.T. Walker, the pastor of Canaan Baptist Church. Some threw eggs at him, saying, we don't want nonviolence here. Two weeks later, he was killed.

But he kept that line of moral high ground. And Mrs. King had that. Nobody knows better than Martin that she would choose a moment to say to me, Al, why did you say so-and-so? Because you played to the crowd in the North because they're a little more angry. And she kind of made me understand if you're going to walk this line, you've got to walk this line in a correct way. I don't think anyone has learned that, embodied that, and done that more than Andrea.

Talk, Andrea, about the importance that Coretta Scott King, who I think you in many ways remind me of, taught our generation behind them that you've got to bear a cross if you want to wear a crown. And sometimes the crowd is going to laugh and mock you as you bear that cross. Not only sometimes, but most times. I think it can't be stated enough how tremendous of a force of nature Coretta Scott King was. And I think we also need to always remember that even before Martin Luther King Jr. became involved in the civil rights movement, she was already involved in the peace movement. So this wasn't, you know, someone that, you know, married someone and then,

you know, became an activist. She, in a very real sense, helped to mentor him in certain ways in his activism. And they, as a couple, you know, really stood on these principles. And she alone, you know, I think right now there are so many single single mothers. Right. This very movement. She was. And people forget that Coretta Scott King was a single mother, you know, to four children. But not only that, she was a mother to the nation. And we would not really not only not celebrate Martin Luther King Jr. in January for the national holiday, we would not really know who and what it was that he did if it weren't for Coretta Scott King and her continuing work. You know, the fact that she was the first woman to give the day speech at St. Paul's Cathedral, the fact that she traveled the world even after his assassination.

The fact that a few days after his death, before anyone was apprehended, she took her three older children and led the march in his place. And you have to remember that she took her children. No one had been apprehended you know she you know um she has mentored so many women she has been on the forefront of so many issues and i always think often you know of her saying to women in particular that if the soul of the nation is to be saved that we must become its soul. And I don't think that that is more, that message is not, has never been more important than where we are right now as a nation,

where we are right now as women, where we are right now as the first generation that children are being born since the end of Reconstruction with fewer rights than their parents, their grandparents and their great great great grandparents. And so that that continuation, that leadership. And that's why we're coming together in March. We're coming together because in a very real sense, we are showing unwavering support for democracy. Martin Luther King III and Andrea Waters King, thank you both very much for coming on the show this morning. Thank you so much. We really appreciate it. Thank you.