Morning Joe - Morning Joe 4/6/23

Episode Date: April 6, 2023

Officials in Trump case continue to receive threats

After he was arrested yesterday, apparently today, Donald Trump has called for America to defund the police, particularly the FBI, the Department of Justice, because the Democrats have weaponized law enforcement. All right. Who in this panel? Raise your hand. Who thinks that's a good idea? All right. Nobody. Wow. Yeah. Donald Trump's vengeance messaging doesn't seem to be resonating with his base. The former president continues to rage post. That's a thing on social media, despite a warning from the judge not to do so. Meanwhile, Mike Pence will have to testify before a federal grand jury in one of the cases tied to Donald Trump. We'll tell you which one and why the former president is finally ready to talk. Plus, the former plus the GOP controlled statehouse in Tennessee could take historic action today against three Democratic lawmakers. We'll explain the controversy, which is connected to protests for gun legislation. And two of those Democrats will be joining us live right here on Morning Joe.

Good morning. Good morning. You know, that was a very interesting clip of Steve and the Republican voters. And, you know, Willie, there's been this belief by Donald Trump himself that and Johnny Goldberg wrote this in his newsletter yesterday, that he is somehow he is America in flesh form, that he represents all of America. So if he's indicted, that means the entire American judicial system is corrupt. There's no law and order. And he went, Jonah went down the list of how ridiculous and outrageous these

things were. And, you know, for quite some time, and there's still some people out there, we run into them, they still see Donald Trump as the embodiment of all America. He is the state. So if things are going well for him, the state's good. If things are going badly for him, America is just terrible. In that case, though, we do see some breakage there. This idea that Donald Trump wants to defund the premier law enforcement agency in America, the idea that Donald Trump hates so many American institutions now and the Department of Justice, it doesn't naturally follow even with people that voted for him twice.

Yeah, I mean, you saw it right there in that little informal focus group that appeared on Fox News, by the way, where Donald Trump is. This is the true social post. He calls on Congress to defund the DOJ and the FBI, which, as Reverend Sharpton said in real time yesterday, amounts to defunding the police, which is an interesting turn based on what they've been railing against Donald Trump and his supporters for many years, as some Democrats and progressives have called for that. But yeah, I mean, he's it's kind of the story of his life, isn't it? That if you flatter me and you're nice to me, then I like you and you're great and you're

the greatest of all time. And, you know, all the things that the flattery he gives in return. But if you turn on me or if things go badly for me now, you are my mortal enemy. And in this case, it is the United States government. And by the way, he's got some helpers with him. We heard from him again yesterday in the Congress, members of the House of Representative Republicans who are going after again yesterday, Alvin Bragg and saying we are going to investigate the district attorney's office, the Department of Justice that they say has been weaponized because in this case, it is holding Donald Trump to account. So he's not entirely alone on this. He's got some help. Well, and again, it has such a negative impact. You have Republicans that are actually in the House following him.

So if he trashes the military or if somebody thinks that the military didn't snap to attention and help him take over the government, suddenly you have the heads of the military, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, a man who served honorably in war and peacetime, getting trashed by Republicans. You have Republicans in the Senate saying that they wish we were more like Russia and they wish our troops were more like Russian troops, which, of course, is preposterous. Our troops are the best. The readiness is better. That's we're stronger than ever before.

We're more effective than ever before. But again, this this blurring of of this assumption that anybody who if the United States Army or if if our military leaders or if the premier law enforcement agency is just doing their jobs, suddenly they hate them. And now Donald Trump wants to defund the police. He wants to defund the FBI. He wants to defund the DOJ. Again, these are the people who keep you and me, your families, my in the FBI and DOJ every day. These are professionals. And they were here before Trump. They'll be there after Trump. But again, just the hatred is palpable. It is palpable. But again, it's not following a lot of members of the base.

No, it's not. And along with Joe, Willie and me, we have the host of Way Too Early, White House bureau chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, former White House director of communications under President Obama, Jennifer Palmieri. She's co-host of Showtime's The Circus and political investigations reporter for The Guardian. Hugo Lowell is with us this morning. So this morning, police are providing extra security for those involved in the Manhattan case against Donald Trump, following a string of unsubstantiated threats. According to two sources familiar with the matter, Judge Juan Merchan and his family have received multiple threats since the hearing on Tuesday. The threats have also reportedly continued against Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg and his staff.

Last month, a concerning letter with suspicious white powder, which was later found to be non-hazardous, were sent to the DA's office. Trump has escalated his rhetoric toward those involved in the case in recent weeks. And while he didn't mention anyone by name on his social media site yesterday, he did blast the, quote, radical left lunatics, maniacs and perverts that he says had him arrested. That's interesting. Now, what are the perverts? What's this case involved? So this case involves hush money to a porn star, which, by the way, if I could just frame calmly. But, you know, I don't know any other candidate who pays off Playboy bunnies and porn stars where that's not something that everybody goes, stop. Whoa. Like, does this campaign continue or whatever?

He has normalized things that are fairly unseemly for evangelicals that he's he's illegally sending hush money. We're all like rolling past that. He's he's illegally sending hush money to Playboy bunnies and to porn stars. And that's a messiah. And he's talking about perverts again i guess this is again projection or confession i don't know exactly what it is but again you do wonder like evangelicals continuing to support this guy i know the numbers are supposedly dwindling but when they have a choice and somebody like ron de santis or nikki haley or all these other people to continue. But lined up behind him is really, really crazy.

I come, I come from this area. I come, this is my community, right? And these are some people who would like not let their children listen to rock music in high school because it was Satan's music. And now they're going, oh, Donald Trump, porn stars, Playboy models. Oh, that's that's awesome. Yeah. Go, Donald. Fight. Fight for us, Trump. Fight for our rights. It's really they've twisted themselves in knots. And now I would just say a charge that begins maybe weaker legally, but a charge that begins with a payoff to walk through that moral minefield to somehow justify supporting this guy. And in some cases, in some cases, hold him up as some like some

secular idol, like it's a cult. It's really sick. What's the old line we've been hearing, Joe, both of us, Mika, all of us for the last eight years? Look, we elected a president, not a saint. And he's going to go fight for us. And we're willing to look the other way because he did get us three Supreme Court justices and Roe versus Wade was overturned. So all the things we get from Donald Trump are worth all the things that come with Donald Trump. But it is what, Willie, that's that's not what they said when Bill Clinton. I know, but that's not what they said. All I heard when I was in Congress and Bill Clinton was president was how dare you not impeach him every day? How dare you? How dare you? You can't be president if you don't have character. Every Republican, every evangelical, every conservative,

they said it repeatedly when character was king and what's his name's book of values or whatever it's called are you kidding me and now those hucksters are first in line defending him pretending as if everything they said when bill clinton was president of the united states no longer is on videotape it is on vide videotape. It is in books. We got it. And they're all liars and hypocrites. It is worth stopping once in a while. We've so internalized this Stormy Daniels story. It's stopping and remembering what we're talking about here. I mean, allegedly that he's alleged to have done in this case. And Jen, there have been so many lines crossed along the way that you just people sort of just keep moving along.

There goes another one. For me, it started when he criticized John McCain way back in July of 2015. And everyone said, well, you can't criticize John McCain. He's a war hero. You can't mock what he went through. And his poll numbers started going up and he didn't look back from there. And from there, line after line after line have been crossed. And people who support him are happy and willing to look the other way. That is, I mean, I remember that moment. I was like in Iowa with Hillary Clinton. And then when I saw him said that, and I was like, okay, this is it. And then when it wasn't, you're like, this guy is in this for, he has tapped into something new and he's in it for the long haul.

And there is no, there is no bottom. And every day reminds us how there is no, um, every day he does remind us how there is no bottom, but the, but you know, with the evangelical voters, I've talked to them, they support Trump. They're, you know, the sanctity of life, abortion, that is their thing, but they're not that, you know, a lot of them are not that comfortable with it. If someone would push back, if a Republican would say, I mean, you saw just like on Fox news, we saw supporters, Republican supporters on, on Fox news say, I don't like it when Trump says, defund the police, just because they like Trump doesn't mean they like everything he says. And if a Republican candidate would actually talk about the substance of the Sturmey Daniels case and say how uncomfortable they are with it, it might have a resonance with the Republican voters, but no one is willing to

do that. No one's willing to do that. Every Republican, including those challenging Trump for the nomination, that when they talk about the case is simply to attack Manhattan D.A. Bragg. And we have members of Congress now trying to use official powers to try to investigate Bragg and try to strip him of his funding. They're not going to do that. There is probably an opening here for someone to move in, even on the evangelicals who, yes, largely still support Trump. But there's been some good reporting recently about some unhappiness about how Trump, frankly, has walked away a little bit from his Supreme Court picks who helped overturn Roe v. Wade. Trump has decided that's not politically beneficial. And we, of course, have seen time after time that perhaps it hasn't been, including in Wisconsin just this week. But the evangelicals may be not

so happy about that. But he is still, and we see his poll numbers continue to go up. He is by far the frontrunner here. But with his latest comments here, Willie, about defunding the police, let's also think about who that puts in a really uncomfortable position. A lot of Republicans in the House, particularly those who won those Biden districts, those are the ones that tipped the House to Republicans last time around. And that's going to they now have to come back to their voters and say whether they support this call to defund federal law enforcement when for so many Americans right now, crime is a real concern. And Willie, you know what's so fascinating is about Trump. Trump is and the pro-lifers know this.

I mean, evangelicals say, oh, well, you know, we'll look past the porn stars. We'll look past the Playboy bunnies, even though it makes us complete raging hypocrites for what we said about Bill Clinton. Complete raging hypocrites in front of our children, in front of our families, in front of the preacher, in front of the people we go to church with. Makes us complete hypocrites because they remember what we were saying about when Bill Clinton was president. Oh, character matters. Character is king. If you're not, if you don't have character, how in the world can you run this country? We're a country of this and that. It's all they said. It was nonstop. he's pro-life. Did they not hear this same guy? Did they not hear him blame pro-lifers for the losses in 2022? Did they not hear how he was freaking out when he heard that Roe v. Wade might be overturned after the leaked case came out? Like it was Donald Trump who was freaking out because he's been pro-choice his whole life. This is just like birtherism and everything else.

He took it on board. He didn't mind being a racist. He didn't mind trading in all of his worldviews to get the Republican nomination. But this guy freaked out when he heard that Roe v. Wade may be overturned. And so now they're like, OK, well, he's with a porn star and a Playboy buddy, but we're still with him because of abortion because he agrees with us. No, he blamed them for the 2022 election. He blamed Roe's overturning for the 22 election. I'm sure he'll blame it for what happened in Wisconsin as well. As you're saying that, Joe, when he decided to become pro-life, I'm remembering the moment with Chris Matthews during the 2016 campaign in that town hall when Chris asked him,

do you think women who get abortion should be punished? And you can see the gears start to turn. What's the right answer? What do people say to this? And he said, yes, women should be punished. We know he didn't necessarily believe that, but he was reaching and searching for what he thought was the right answer. Speaking of all these comments that he's been making in his family on Truth Social, in addition to the ones about the judge, Trump and his family also going after the judge's wife and adult daughter. On social media on Tuesday, Trump's oldest sons shared photos of the daughter who they accused

of currently working for President Joe Biden and previously working for Vice President Kamala Harris during her 2020 campaign. An NBC News review found no evidence the daughter ever worked for either Biden or Harris personally. Instead, records show she was president of a digital advertising company that did work with a number of Democrats, including the Biden and Harris campaign teams in the past. So, Hugo Lowell, you have a former president of the United States using his big megaphone and his family as well, particularly the two older sons, to go after the daughter of the judge in his own case after the judge made those admonitions a couple of days ago in court about laying low and not attacking judges, juries and everybody else. Yeah, I think Trump has

to be really careful about how he proceeds from here on out. You know, we had reporting before his arraignment that he wanted to escalate his attacks on Alvin Bragg, the district attorney, and how he wanted to kind of politically, quote, you know, rough them up using a little bit more colorful language than that. But if you were in the courtroom, you would have seen how Justice Merchan was very, very specific when he issued this directive. And he looked at the prosecution and he looked at the defense. And I think he looked directly at Trump, from what I could see. And he said, we have to tone down the rhetoric on both sides, because this is getting out of hand. And

then what does Trump go and do? That very same night back at Palm Beach, he goes and lashes out at the judge himself. If you want to avoid, you know, more restrictive protective orders, if you want to avoid gag orders, then we should mention that Justice Pershing did him a solid and said in court, you know, I'm not inclined to issue a gag order at this time. That is not the way to go about your trial. There's still a very, very long way to go. If he wants to remain kind of an active participant in the process, I think Trump's really going to have to tamp down his rhetoric. And, you know, the other warning that we should remember that Justice Merchan issued was if you're disruptive or, you know, act in a way that, you know, stops the way that we have expedient trials, then you're going to be removed.

Yeah, I mean, I want to get talking about just the rank hypocrisy of people that say, oh, I just I support this guy because he's a man of God. He's this. He's that. And then they back off and say, oh, by the way, they all voted for him after Access Hollywood tape. And then again, they can vote for whoever they want to, but they can't say that a Democratic president is destroying America because he doesn't have character and then say when a Republican's in there, it doesn't matter. And here we are still with this case that's come forward again. It's a it just puts it right in the face of all these people who were so high and mighty and self-righteous. Right. And I could name preachers. I could name book authors. I could name, you name it, columnists, everybody, and Republican politicians.

And now suddenly they say character doesn't matter. It's about abortion. And then Trump says, well, I don't really care about abortion either. I think you lost the 2022 election. Right. So if you look across our screen, you see porn star payoff fallout. That was about any Democratic president. We'd be talking about the end of their presidency or their end of their candidacy. But for Donald Trump, there's two thingsing with what he's accused of, especially when it comes to the porn stars and the Playboy models where he's in these pictures with them, where apparently there was an affair. There were paid off in some way. They're trying to argue that the payoff was legal. They're not trying to argue this didn't happen. That's number one.

Trump is under arrest. Number two, accountability is seeping into Donald Trump's life. He may slowly be feeling it because you can see in his truth social post, he's trying not to name names. He's trying to edit what he's saying because the judge did warn him that it could be a problem if his rhetoric or his words lead to trouble. And so he has to change his behavior. For the first time in his life, he can't do exactly what he wants to do

because he is under arrest. And I'll tell you, I think personally, just knowing Trump, he would love a gag order because he could then say his free speech, he's being persecuted. I think the biggest risk that his lawyers, if they are good lawyers, which I guess is questionable because he's had to go through a lot of lawyers, but a good lawyer will tell him, you need to be careful.

You can't do what you want to do anymore. You can't be impulsive. You can't be undisciplined. You can't just riff and go off the cuff and be Trump anymore because the prosecution could move to accelerate this case. We've heard countless experts looking at this case, many of whom have said the core of this case is very sound. Yeah. And on top of it, the prosecution, if they feel that his rhetoric and his words is impacting the case and influencing it, they could ask the judge to move it up from December 4th. They could do that.

He could also find him in contempt, put him in jail. I don't think he'd like that, even if it was for a night or two. All these things are now a possibility. If you're just talking about, again, how other people are treated. But of course, Donald Trump has been above the law his entire life. And so I suspect this is a shock to him that he may not be completely above the law right now, even though he's being allowed to do things that no other criminal defendant would ever be allowed to do. I am curious, though, Hugo, let's talk about Mike Pence for a second.

Pence has decided he's not going to fight testifying anymore. It's kind of like me in 1991 saying, you know what, I guess I'm not going to fight Mike Tyson. I would have lost anyway. Pence was going to lose every one of these. We've seen from the Supreme Court they weren't going to let him get away from testifying. I guess the question is that even if he does testify, how much is Jack Smith going to get out of him? That's actually the first time I've been asked that. And that is the key question in the entire investigation. Look, you know, Mike Pence was there for everything. He was there from November through to January 6th. And there's a lot of stuff that he can testify about,

you know, with respect to the efforts to overturn the election in certain states, this composition of kind of fake slates that the Trump campaign was trying to put before him so that he could essentially throw the election to the House on January 6th or, you know, or in some other way interrupt the electoral certification. But to me, having looked at this investigation for now nearly two years, as an investigator, what you would want to find out is what Pencil is saying one-on-one with Trump and what he was doing in preparation for January 6th. But I think those areas might actually be off-limits, the way I read and the way I interpreted the order, because he

does have far-reaching speech or debate protections as the presiding officer of the Senate on January 6th. And I think that is going to remain a big hole for the special counsel. If there was an expectation that we would learn his one-on-one conversations with Trump, even if they kind of touched on criminality, even if Trump was trying to get him to throw slates of electors out, it doesn't strike me as that being in the purview, in the scope of the order. And so I think it's a partial win for Jack Smith, the special counsel, but there's also going to be elements that he doesn't care. All right, the Guardian 2, hello. Thank you so much for your reporting. And what will probably happen there is they'll have the deposition and it might,

if he refuses to answer based on privilege, they can continue the deposition and then appeal these areas. And my guess would be, again, we don't know, but the Supreme Court would likely say, well, if something was said in the commission of a crime, it's just like the attorney client privilege. They may decide to pierce that privilege. We'll see, though, a little bit different because you're talking about separation of powers. But I think it'll be more than likely that Pence will be forced to testify to any things that could have been criminal. There are a number of legal challenges ahead for this former president. And still ahead on Morning Joe, House Speaker Kevin McCarthy meets with the president of Taiwan. We'll discuss the significance of that meeting and what it means for U.S.-China relations. Also ahead, Tennessee House Republicans are taking steps to expel three Democratic state

representatives after they participated in protests calling for new gun legislation. We'll talk to one of those Democrats next. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. Beautiful shot of Washington, D.C. as the sun comes up over Washington. Welcome back to Morning Joe. It's half past the hour. Beautiful shot of Washington, D.C. as the sun comes up over Washington. Welcome back to Morning Joe. It's half past the hour.

Republicans in the Tennessee House of Representatives have introduced resolutions to expel three Democrats for what they are calling disorderly behavior. Those three Democrats approached the House podium in between bills last Thursday. They chanted with protesters in the House chamber gallery, calling for action on gun violence after six people were killed in a Nashville school shooting just days earlier. Because the lawmakers were not recognized to speak at the time, Republicans say they broke chamber rules. The Tennessee House speaker went as far as comparing their actions to the January 6th. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I don't see any cops being beaten up by Trump supporters. Do they have zip ties? I don't see anybody defecating,

any Trump supporters defecating on the floor. I'm checking my facts here. I don't, I don't, I don't see people running around screaming, looking for Nancy Pelosi or saying they're going to hang Mike Pence. Yeah, that was an unfortunate line. I don't understand that because I and I wonder what did the Tennessee speaker. Did he ever criticize Donald Trump for January 6th? That'd be interesting to see. All right. Or is it just more Republican hypocrisy? They've already been removed from their committee assignments.

The final vote on whether to expel them is set for later today. Some historic context on this controversial vote. Only two members of the Tennessee House have been removed from office since the Civil War. Let's bring in right now

one of three Tennessee lawmakers facing expulsion, Representative Justin Pearson. Representative, thank you so much for being with us. It seems you're being possibly expelled from an elected position because you practice your free speech And maybe broken some procedural rules in Tennessee. How how how unprecedented is this? Yes, this is an unprecedented and historical moment in Tennessee and American history. to the well of the House in a peaceful protest to listen to the people, the thousands of children and teenagers who came to our state capitol and demanded that we do something about gun reform, that we do something about gun violence and the epidemic that is plaguing our communities.

Instead of spending many hours and time and energy on helping to solve the problem that led to the shooting in Nashville, but has led to many shootings in our own communities of Memphis and Shelby County. Instead of working on just legislation that actually helps to heal the pain that many children and parents and grandparents have come to our Capitol to talk with us about, the response has been to expel members who are exercising their First Amendment rights to make sure that the people who were showing up, the families and the communities, our constituents in the galleries were heard.

We were ignored on the House floor during a period called welcoming honoring, where we would have welcomed those who came to protest peacefully, which was every single person who was there. And it was over 5000 people on that Thursday. But instead, the conversation was cut short by the speaker, the speaker who called these children insurrectionists, who called parents who were mourning and grieving insurrectionists. The speaker, Cameron Sexton, who was comparing the events of January 6th, where over five people were killed, at least five people were killed, where dozens of police officers and law enforcement

officers were beaten by people with pepper spray and batons. In that type of environment, he's comparing peaceful protesters, mostly children and teenagers, who are saying, Tennessee state lawmakers, it's time for you to do something. It's time for you to act. And we need to act on the epidemic of gun violence. And we need to do it much sooner rather than later. It's such a grotesque comparison. Obviously, those kids coming out of their schools on that day looking for legislation, legal passage of legislation, gun laws versus the lie that brought people to violence in the Capitol on January 6th.

Representative, is it true that you already have lost ID access to the Capitol? Like you can't swipe in in the morning that you've been expelled, at least from some committees. And then a third part for you, are you worried that you actually might be expelled altogether from the House of Representatives there? Yes, the speaker and the Republican Party leadership of Tennessee has expelled all of my colleagues off of committees and has refused to assign me a committee since our general election that we won in District 86. And the reality is this body that is perpetuating injustice, that is silencing the voices of people who are demanding action. People in our community of Memphis and Shelby County who are saying we need to do something about gun reform, we need to do something to end

the gun violence epidemic. Passing laws like permitless carry are not helpful. Passing laws like lowering the restrictions for being able to carry, lowering the age restriction to carry a gun is not helpful. Arming teachers and turning our schools into prisons and fortresses is not helpful. People in our district and across the state in East and Middle and West Tennessee are saying those aren't real solutions and we need to see better solutions. But the folks who are putting forward those solutions, who are not truly listening to those who are coming to the Capitol pleading and crying and screaming that we do something, folks like the mother of my classmate who was murdered by gun violence, Larry Thorne, earlier this year, those folks aren't being listened to. And so I expect

today when a vote is taken about expelling myself and Representative Johnson and Representative Jones, this body and this Republican majority legislature will expel us, not for committing an actual crime, as the last two folks who have been expelled have done, but for breaking a house decorum rule. That's unbelievable. Tennessee State Representative Justin Peterson. Thank you. Thank you so much for being, Pearson. Thank you so much, Representative. Exactly. And thank you so much for being here. And good luck. Mika, it's crazy that, first of all, like Willie said, it's grotesque that they would compare high school kids coming to ask for legislation, for gun safety legislation, so they could go to school

and learn and be safer. It's grotesque that the speaker in Tennessee would compare that to a riot where people have been sent to jail for beating the hell out of cops with American flags, for defecating in the people's house, for having a full-blown right to overturn an election. And they're comparing high school students. So just don't want to die at school. And Jen Palmieri, this is where the country is. Yeah, the country is with these kids.

It's not like this is the decorum that was broken, and I think it's fair to say decorum was broken inside the statehouse. It's not like it was broken for a white nationalist parade. They are with these kids who are getting killed at school.

And Jen, I served in a legislative body. You don't expel people because they break the quorum. They they they gavel you down to tell you to stop. And if you don't, you're taken from the floor by the sergeant at arms. That's it. There's so much wrapped up here about the state of democracy in this, you know, in this in this one story. First of all, you see people are at a breaking point. You saw it in 2018, five years ago now with Parkland,

and that's where March for Our Lives started, the kids that rose up there in protest. Last month, we saw it in Michigan. Michigan State had a school shooting. Michigan State students rallied behind in the Capitol. In Michigan, they were actually able to pass gun safety laws in response to that. And now you see it in Tennessee, which is a pretty conservative state that people are just students, parents, all of us are just at a breaking point. And then inside the chamber,

suppressing democracy, again, Republicans trying to thwart democracy by removing three democratically elected representatives, who, by the way, represent some of Tennessee's biggest cities. And, you know, they don't want this. Of course, this is what they want us to talk about. They want us to talk about the process as opposed to putting pressure on them to pass something that will respond to the school shootings. But you see, like these kids are not going away. Like, Tennessee is reacting. This is a conservative place, but you see country music singers, a lot of people speaking out to say, to demand action. It's going to keep happening everywhere. And, you know, guys, the News Channel 5 in Nashville pointed out to Speaker Sexton, who's talking about expelling these three members, saying

if you throw them out of office, it's going to be about 200,000 people in Tennessee without representation. You're overturning the vote effectively in this case. And he said, quote, well, their actions made that happen, saying maybe they just won't have representatives if they behave like this. So what they don't understand is that these kids aren't protesting the color of their school uniforms. Right. They're scared for their lives. So this isn't go every day they go to school across the country. Children go to school scared for their lives.

Parents send their kids to school scared their kids won't come back. So it's not like this issue is going away. It's again like Republicans and Trump. They don't see what's coming down the pike. A mass shooting is coming to a town near you. I mean, no matter where you are, the one cause of death for children in the United States is guns. And that's something that, yes, whether you're a Republican representing a district in Tennessee or a Democrat representing a seat in Tennessee, you have you have kids who are worried when they go to school.

So I think they do understand it, which makes this move even more confounding. But coming up, we have House Speaker Kevin McCarthy hosting the president of Taiwan, which, of course, drew condemnation from China. We're going to get a live report from Beijing straight ahead. Plus, economic tensions are also straining U.S.-China relations. Despite Western media reports of a faltering economy, Steve Ratner says China is prospering in ways the U.S. should envy. He joins us with charts on that. Morning Joe, we'll be right back. Wow. Beautiful shot of New York City. It might be a rainy day, but the sun peeking over the clouds is simply beautiful. It is 15 toward the top of the hour. There was a rare historic meeting yesterday between House Speaker Kevin McCarthy and Taiwan's president on U.S. soil.

NBC News Chief Foreign Affairs Correspondent Andrea Mitchell has the latest. Despite threats from China, House Speaker Kevin McCarthy and a bipartisan congressional delegation at the Reagan Library in California, side by side with Taiwan's President Tsai Ing-wen in a strong show of support. Our bond is stronger now than at any time or point in my lifetime. Today, the peace that we have maintained and the democracy which we have worked hard to build are facing unprecedented challenges. At her suggestion, they're meeting in the U.S., less provocative than the Speaker's original plan to go to Taiwan, as then-Speaker Pelosi did in August. That sparked a furious barrage from China of missiles over the self-governing island that China declares its territory. Beijing saying the

meeting undermines China's sovereignty. This is a bipartisan meeting of members of Congress who are honored to spend some time with you. Tensions between the U.S. and China already high, including over China's spy balloon, which NBC News reported exclusively was picking up electronic signals intelligence while making repeated passes over sensitive U.S. military sites before the U.S. finally shot it down off the Atlantic coast. Do you worry that meeting with President Tsai in the United States is going to further escalate the tensions? No, it shouldn't by any means.

I mean, I would sit down with President Xi. What I think would foster a worse situation is a lack of communication. But still looming, U.S. intelligence officials say China is likely to invade Taiwan within the next five years. Andrea Mitchell reporting for us there. Meanwhile, overnight, House Foreign Affairs Chairman Michael McCaul and a bipartisan delegation of lawmakers did land in Taipei for a three-day visit. Chairman McCaul telling reporters it would not be intimidated by China's, quote, saber-rattling. Joining us now, former Treasury official and Morning Joe economic analyst Steve Ratner

and president of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass. Guys, good morning. Richard, I'll start with you on the visit by the Taiwanese president to the Reagan Library in California yesterday with Speaker McCarthy. It was bipartisan. Decent diplomacy there by the speaker, it appeared. I thought it was decent diplomacy by everybody. The whole idea that the speaker didn't go there, to Taiwan, but instead agreed to meet the president of Taiwan here, already good. This was just a transit on her part. It's heavily choreographed, wasn't quote-unquote a visit. She didn't meet with administration officials.

She didn't give a speech. What they did was a press conference. So it was all within the parameters of the U.S., Taiwan, China sort of understandings. And you also have a situation where the mainland doesn't want a crisis right now, because while President Tsai was here, the leader of the other party in Taiwan was in Beijing. And they don't want to do something big and nasty because they don't want to provoke a sort of a domestic reaction in Taiwan. You've got elections in Taiwan in less than a year, presidential elections. So for everybody, for various reasons, was kind of on their best behavior. And it really, I thought, was very successful, fairly subtle diplomacy.

A lot of delicate choreography going on there. Steve, you're just back from Beijing. What's the view from the other side of this inside China? Well, the view from China, I think certainly among the business community, the people I met as one of nervousness, because for all of the calmness that Richard described around this visit, tensions are nonetheless elevated from where they had been. And everybody in China recognizes that to move against Taiwan risks some major, major conflict, conflagration, confrontation, whatever is going to come of it. And everywhere you go in China, they are talking about Taiwan and what's going to happen in Taiwan, because it is as much a problem for them as it is for us in a way.

Say, Richard, what is the talk about the selective outrage from China? We've talked about how sometimes speakers will go there. There won't be huge protests. Other times when Nancy Pelosi went, there was a huge protest. I can tell you, I went when they had their first inauguration of, I believe it was President Li in 96, 97, with a huge delegation, not a lot of protests. So why is there, I understand China's always going to oppose American politicians going over to Taiwan, but why the selective outrage? Why do they make such a big deal sometimes, but not other times? Well, it all depends upon context, where we are in the Taiwan political cycle, where we are in the overall U.S.-Chinese relationship, whether there's a precedent particularly being set, might also depend in part upon domestic politics

on the mainland. But here, again, I think everybody, all my recent meetings with Chinese officials, Joe, suggest to me that they are not looking for an escalation in tensions right now. Things have gotten about as bad as they've gotten in the modern era. The balloon incident punctuated it. We don't even really have high-level diplomacy anymore. The question is when or if the Secretary of State can visit there. China's worried about some of the economic implications of further deterioration in relations. So I think right now what the mainland wants is a certain calming. Interestingly enough, so does the administration.

So I don't think we're in a moment of improvement in U.S.-Chinese relations to any significant degree. But I think both sides may be looking for something of a floor, since neither side is looking for a bad situation to get demonstrably worse, much less for a crisis or an incident. Let's go to Beijing. That's where we find NBC News foreign correspondent Janice Mackey-Frayer. Janice, good evening to you there in Beijing. What has been the reaction so far? What are you hearing there on the ground from the Chinese government, from President Xi about this visit from President Tsai to the United States. The threats of retaliation started days before the meeting actually happened.

And those words didn't change today, but there weren't any actions that were matched to it. The official reaction so far appears to be one of restraint that you've been discussing, and also kind of scoffing at the idea that there would be a massive military response and hinting that Beijing might be playing with a different playbook. And it's crucial to widen out to everything else that was happening here today. It was like a diplomatic traffic jam. You had the foreign ministers of Saudi Arabia and Iran shaking hands weeks after that landmark deal to reestablish diplomatic ties. And just a mile down the road here at the Great Hall of the People, Xi Jinping is hosting French President Emmanuel Macron, as well as the European Commission president, for a three-day visit. And given the number of high-profile visitors that have come through here in the past few weeks alone, the leaders of Germany, Spain, Brazil,

we have the foreign ministers of Japan and New Zealand, it shows how several countries are approaching Beijing differently than the U.S. these days. With Macron, he's going to have six hours of private meeting time with Xi Jinping, and that's not insignificant. And he says he wants to use that time to try to convince Xi to use his clout to influence Vladimir Putin on the war in Ukraine. And that's what's been striking to me over the past several weeks is to see China on this diplomatic tear of sorts and also how we now see this curious crossover of policies toward Ukraine and policies toward China in several countries now almost intertwined at a time when China is trying to position itself as more of a global

player. That brings us back to the top of the conversation and the reaction to Taiwan. It's probably why it's going to be muted, not saying that something won't happen in the days or weeks to come. But for today, Beijing appeared to not want to upstage itself. With all of these meetings and all of these visits happening. Certainly no coincidence. Very busy there in Beijing. NBC's Janice Mackey-Ferrer. Janice, thank you as always for your reporting. Richard, so President Macron is the latest to try to twist the arm to the extent he can of President Xi on the issue of Ukraine and getting in Vladimir Putin's ear, except two

weeks ago, President Xi was in Moscow, kind of bolstering Vladimir Putin. Is there any evidence that anyone can get to Vladimir Putin, whether through President Xi or otherwise, on the issue of Ukraine? At the moment, there's no evidence. There's no evidence the Chinese particularly leaned on. And when I criticized a Chinese official recently for that, he looked at me and he laughed. He said, have you ever tried to persuade Vladimir Putin? I said, maybe you have a point. I don't think they got very far. But the European visits are interesting here, Willie. I think the Chinese want to have better economic ties with Europe. They also are worried about the Europeans joining the Americans. Steve will talk about it probably, about economic sanctions. So they're

trying to be careful. And yeah, I think the Chinese love the idea, to use the cliche, soft power. I think they kind of like the idea that they're appearing now very, very diplomatic. And I think that plays into Xi Jinping's prestige at home and internationally. So it's all, at least for the time being, things are lining up in a fairly healthy direction. You gave us a good segue over to Steve Ratner. He's moved to the wall. Steve, as I mentioned, you just come back from Beijing. Not the Great Wall. No, no, no. Well, it's pretty great. Look at that thing. So, Steve,

tell us what you found over there in terms of the Chinese economy. What I found there, as you suggested earlier, is actually an economy that's doing a bit better than perhaps if you just read the Western press, you might think. And so I'm going to compare China to the U.S. a bit and give you a sense of that perspective. But if you look at projected growth for this year, China is expected to grow at something over 5 percent, down from the torrid 7 percent that it's grown in the past. But 5 percent doesn't compare very favorably for the Chinese to our 1.5 percent. We would love to have their growth rate. And on the same thing on inflation, we're still battling inflation at around 6 percent. Their inflation is negligible at around 1 1%, a number we would also love to see. What was interesting and surprising to me, actually, though, given how strong the economy

is in many ways, is that unemployment is actually higher in China than it is in the U.S., 5% versus our 3.6%. But it is largely for an interesting reason, which is very high unemployment, 18% unemployment among young Chinese. And that is in part because of education, actually, surprisingly. They are pouring over 4 million Chinese a year into the job market with a bachelor's degree. And even more impressive, 1.4 million of them have a STEM, a technology or an engineering degree, compared to our 1.6 and only 440,000. So they are building the workforce of the future here. They just need to get them employed as the economy moves from manufacturing to higher value types of things.

We talked a bit about the trade war. And so let's take a look at what the trade war means. And this is one of the things that's very worrisome to the Chinese, something I heard a lot about while I was in China, like, why is this going on and how do we bring it to an end? Because there actually is an impact of the tariffs that were put in by President Trump. And you can see it in the numbers, the most highly tariffed goods, which are things like semiconductors and IT equipment and so forth. You can see the drop in the amount of those imports coming into the United States, a fairly significant 30%-ish kind of drop, almost 30%. Then you can see the stuff that's taxed at

7.5%, mostly food and agricultural kinds of things, also dropping, but not surprisingly, by not as much. And then you can see everything else. We continue to increase. Everything else is up over 30% from where it was back in 2017. So our dependence on our involvement with China on an import level is not going away. And you put it all together, imports are running roughly where they were at the beginning. But it is something you hear a lot about from companies and particularly the less the softer point that maybe Americans are going to be more reluctant to buy from China because of all the other tension. But look, we have to remember there is a cost to the tariffs, which is to say that imported goods cost more. You can see that when the tariffs went on, the cost of imported goods went up to 5% higher than what it was before. And the cost of non-tariff

goods continued to go down. And so American people do pay a price for those tariffs. Let's look at the third chart, which is fascinating, Steve. And it goes to population aging and immigration. An amazing stat you have in here, which is that by the end of this century, the Chinese population will decline by almost half. Yeah. And actually, that has some interesting implications for our policy and how we operate. So China has had an up and down kind of involvement with demographics in the early

years of the Chinese regime and all the instability. They had a low birth rate. Then they had their version of the baby boom. Then they went to the one child policy. And now they're back to encouraging population for reasons I'll get to in a second. But you can see if you compare demographically China to the U.S., China has a big bubble of sort of middle-aged Chinese working their way through the system, moving into retirement, and all the costs associated with that. And then they have a smaller group of people actually coming into their prime working years, and that creates another set of problems. But when you put it all together, the projections for Chinese

population are pretty staggering, as you said, Willie. It's at about 1.4 billion now. By the year 2100, because of a declining birth rate and not below replacement rate, they will be down to 770 million Chinese absent some other action. The U.S. faces a similar situation, which is declining population also. We have peaked as well, or we're very close to peaking. But the difference between China and the U.S. is immigration. We bring in a million immigrants a year, and that is what is projected to keep our population stable. China does not. There are no virtually no immigrants into China. It is a very kind of mono ethnic culture. And so you can see the difference that immigration can make in the prospects for these two very large countries.

That immigration number and the population number is kind of stunning, actually. Steve Ratner at the Great Wall of 30 Rock. Steve, thanks so much. We appreciate it. Richard Haas, before you go, you walked in, sat down. You said, you know, we'll have just over an hour before, and we didn't know what it was. And you reminded us? The Masters. Yes. Tee off just after 8 o'clock this morning, 87th Masters.

Golf is the main story. The sub-story is the tension between the PGA Tour and the Saudi-supported Live Tour. And we'll just have to see how it plays out. You got any favorites? Scotty Scheffler still looks great. He won last year, hard to repeat. Rory McIlroy.

Yep. Masters is the only major tournament he hasn't won to complete the sweep. So there's that. My own personal favorite, Cam Young, Cameron Young, played from a place called Scarborough, New York. You may have heard of it. He used to be there. The tour is just praying that no one from the live tour wins the Masters.

Yes, Cameron Smith is the most likely. He's the only top ten golfer in the world on the live tour. There's a young man, Cam Smith, and that would be an awkward moment, shall we say. Well, we are one hour from now, the first golfers tee off. Richard Haas, I know you've got to get home and get in front of the TV for the next four days. We'll let you go.