Morning Joe - Morning Joe 4/7/23

Episode Date: April 7, 2023

Tennessee GOP expels two Black lawmakers

What we did was the only logical thing to do after a session defined by extreme silencing of representatives of this body. A session defined by multiple moments in which the attempt to even bring up gun violence was immediately out of order. That was your 20 minutes. This does not seem like America. To expel voices of opposition and dissent is a across a nation that we're entering into very dangerous territory. One of the two Democrats in Tennessee expelled after participating in a gun violence protest on the floor of the statehouse. We're going to have much more on this partisan punishment just ahead. Meanwhile, on Capitol Hill, one of Donald Trump's most vocal allies in Congress sends a subpoena to a former prosecutor in the Manhattan District Attorney's Office.

This isn't going to work really well for Jim. We'll explain why a prosecutor is going to explain why he wrote a book saying that actually D.A. Bragg didn't go after Donald Trump aggressively enough. But, you know, if you got him, smoke him, Jimmy. Yeah. So this could backfire on Jim Jordan. We'll explain and we'll dig into the bombshell report exposing years of lavish vacations taken by Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, all paid for by a GOP mega donor. Boy, I tell you, Willie, the Clarence Thomas stuff just keeps coming out. Of course, if this had been Lane Kagan or Justice Sotomayor or somebody on the left, the right would be squawking like crazy. But here with Clarence Thomas, it's just one breach of ethical conduct after another, stepping over one line, then another, then another. And

I guess there's just nothing. There's nothing that can be done. And for decades, it's been going on for decades. I had the same thought, Joe, for a party that likes to talk about wealthy overlords controlling people who make decisions. See George Soros, for example. This story actually has that, which is someone who's paying a Supreme Court justice. We don't have evidence that it influences decisions or anything like that. But at the very least, it's something that needs to be looked into and feels unethical, if not illegal at this point. Along with Joe, Willie and me, we have former White House press secretary, now an MSNBC host, Jen Psaki, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist and associate editor of The Washington Post and MSNBC political analyst Eugene Robinson, White House editor for Politico, Sam Stein. Well, I'm sure double duty today. I'm way too early.

I'm one of the greatest episodes. It's way too early. It was fabulous. I do what I can, guys. I do what I can. He's just a humble servant. We also have with us the host of MSNBC's Politics Nation and president of the National Action Network, Reverend Al Sharpton, and founder of the conservative website, The Bulwark,

and author of How the Right Lost Its Mind. Oh, boy. Charlie Sykes is with us this morning. So, Reverend Sharpton, I'm so glad you're here. I'm a simple man. You know that. I fell off a turnip truck outside of 30 Rock a couple of years ago and brushed the dirt off and walked upstairs and Phil Griffin needed somebody to polish his shoes, so I got a job. So it's way

beyond my pay grade to figure out why is it that two of the lawmakers got expelled in Tennessee yesterday, but one didn't. I'm a simple man. Can you explain that to me? Just I'm trying to pick up. I'm not good in Sudoku, so sometimes I don't pick up trends and I don't see where things are going. So maybe you can help me out with what happened yesterday and why one was allowed to remain in and two were expelled.

Well, Phil Griffin told me when you fell off the turnip truck, you didn't bump your head. So I think you can figure it out with me. And that is clearly one was white, two were black. All three engaged in protests, legitimate protests around gun control, because six people in Tennessee, right there in Nashville, in a Christian school, were killed, three of them nine years old. And there were protests, and rightfully so, around Tennessee, around gun laws. These three legislators decided they would also add those protests in the session and they were expelled. But only two only the two young blacks were expelled.

The white female was maintained and to her credit, she stood up and said, this is clearly about race. So when you have a legislature that is clearly a conservative, overwhelmingly Republican and white male that are not only saying we're not going to deal with the question of gun control, even though we've had mass killings in this state and one as recent as 10 days ago, we're also going to mix race in at the same time. If this does not raise the concern of all of us nationally, and I've been in conversations all night with people in Nashville, I don't know what will. This is racist and it is dangerous when it comes to gun control. And we're talking about babies, nine year olds that were killed. They were protesting about babies. I heard someone talk about how decades ago, Julian Bond was excluded in Georgia over the Vietnam War. We're talking about babies killed in their own backyard. And they're going

to not only not rise to the occasion, they're going to punish those that do. And this is their offense, of course, compared to 9-11 by a speech or January 6th, I mean, by a speaker who obviously didn't see any of the coverage on January the 6th. It's outrageous. But everything about this is outrageous. And Gene Robinson, we said yesterday that the GOP, they were making a they become a parody of themselves on the national stage and the local stage. And then, my God, is there a worse look for the Tennessee legislature to expel two young black men? But tell the white woman, it's all right, you can stay in here with

us. They just couldn't help themselves, could they? You know, when people tell you who they are, believe them. And so, yes, I believe this is one of the most racist things I've seen recently. And that's saying a lot. better way to energize the Tennessee Democratic Party, to energize people concerned about civil rights in Tennessee and in the nation, and to paint the majority in the Texas—in the Tennessee legislature as not only—tone-deaf doesn't say it, not only blind to what happened in Nashville just a few days ago, but frankly, just flat out so racist that they couldn't stop themselves from expelling the two young black men and not expelling the white woman who did the exact same thing. This is today's Republican Party and the nation is watching.

The nation will take note and I hope the nation will act. And just for a little historical perspective, guys, we might say, well, I guess this happens from time to time. No, actually, in the state of Tennessee, lawmakers have been expelled, according to the Tennessee and the newspaper there in Nashville, only twice since the Civil War, once recently for sexual misconduct, another time in the 80s for accepting a bribe. So here's what happened. Republican legislators in Tennessee voted yesterday to expel two black Democrats from the statehouse over their protests on the chamber floor against gun violence last week. Such protests on the floor are forbidden under House rules. Now dubbed the Tennessee three, Democratic Representatives Justin Pearson and Justin Jones were expelled from the body while Representative Gloria Johnson, who was white,

survived expulsion. Here is what Jones and Pearson had to say before their expulsion votes. What we see today is a lynch mob assembled to not lynch me, but our democratic process. We called for you all to ban assault weapons and you respond with an assault on democracy. Let's talk about expulsion. For years, one of your colleagues who was an admitted child molester sat in this chamber. No expulsion. One member sits in this chamber who was found guilty of domestic violence. No expulsion.

We had a former speaker sit in this chamber who is now under federal investigation, no expulsion. We have a member still under federal investigation, no expulsion. We had a member pee in another member's chair in this chamber. No expulsion. In fact, they're in leadership. In the governor's administration. And so, once again, what you're saying to us, since you're trying to put us on trial, I'll say what you're really putting on trial is the state of Tennessee.

What you're really showing for the world is holding up a mirror to a state that is going back to some dark, dark roots. A state in which the Ku Klux Klan was founded is now attempting another power grab by silencing the two youngest black representatives and one of the only women, democratic women, in this body. Dr. King taught us that sometimes there's a consciousness above rule, above what you might say is law, and that the true forms of protest is nonviolent disobedience. For less than a few minutes, we and you are seeking to expel District 86's representation from this house in a country that was built on a protest in a country that was built on a protest I can say to folks who are worried about whether or not as one sign

said am i next but I can say to you is that the movement for justice can never die because the heart for justice can never be killed. We've got good news that Sunday always comes. Resurrection is a promise and it is a prophecy. It's a prophecy that came out of the cotton fields. It's a prophecy that came out of the cotton fields. It's a prophecy that came out of the lynching tree. It's a prophecy that still lives in each and every one of us in order to make the state of Tennessee the place that it ought to be. So I've still got hope because I know we are still here and we will never quit. Representative Justin Pearson speaking yesterday. So Joe and Mika, just to remind people what happened, this was last week. It was on March 30th. The representatives

you hear here there, along with Gloria Johnson, who we'll speak to in just a moment, went into the well of the house, into a megaphone, and were protesting the shooting at the Covenant School. We've got to do something about guns. The Tennessee Highway Patrol, which protects the Capitol, said there were not any arrests made, no property damage, nothing like we see, obviously, January 6th, which is the comparison being made by some Republicans here. It was, by definition, a peaceful protest. They may have broken the House rules. Yes, there are ways to deal with that in terms of punishment. But to expel them and to overturn the will of the voters who put them there is something else entirely. Again, as a member of a legislative body, I can tell you procedural rules get broken.

And when they do, you're asked to stand down or the sergeant at arms takes you out of the chamber. There are many steps before expulsion. I actually saw that happen on the floor of Congress. I will say just extraordinary speeches by both of the representatives who were expelled. And again, I think you listen and you find out that people that committed domestic violence and other abuse allowed to stay in there. Even if you urinate in a fellow member's chair, you get promoted in Tennessee to the leadership. But if you protest nine year olds getting slaughtered in a Christian school, well, they kick you out. Joining us now, Tennessee State Representative Gloria Johnson, who was one of the three who was not expelled yesterday. Thank you so much for being on the show this morning. We appreciate it.

I guess the question for you this morning is what worries you the most about what happened in the Tennessee Statehouse yesterday and what gives you the most hope? Well, you know, it was just a travesty. Process was not there was no process. There were no rules. We tried to get some information on what the rules were going to be, what the process was going to be. We got nothing in a little bit of direction. They would not allow us to bring in any video of our own. However, when we get there, they make a motion to show their video that we had not seen. We don't know who took it. We didn't know how they edited it. They promised it was only filmed from the floor that day, but it turns out it was not. It was films from other things. So we were lied to. We were misinformed. And it is scary that this is what's happening to

our democratic process. And that's the biggest thing. And that two young men who are brilliant young men, and they are passionate, and they care deeply about their community, and to see, you know, people's, to see how they were questioned in a different way from me. I had some of Republican colleagues say things like, well, you know, they didn't show contrition or they have the younger generation has a different way of speaking. They have a different way of addressing things. I am a 60 year old school teacher. I might talk a little more level tone and that sort of thing. But it was very clear what this was about.

Representative Johnson, Reverend Al Shopton, first, let me salute you on standing up, saying what this was about in terms of you not being excluded and the others were, and that was race. And I think people around the country get a lot of hope from you standing up, having that kind of courage. Let me ask this. Do you see any legal or other ways that could lead to the reinstatement of your two colleagues? And do you see a path forward in terms of dealing with laws around guns in the state of Tennessee. We are talking about reacting to nine-year-olds being killed at school. And I don't think we want to miss the forest for the trees.

So do you see a pathway toward dealing with the gun legislation that the three of you advocated? And do you see a way of legally or otherwise reinstating these two lawmakers that we feel were unjustifiably removed? I think there might be a pathway forward. I think it's going to be baby steps. I don't really trust that my Republican colleagues are going to pass anything that is near enough, but I think we can take steps. And the only reason that's going to happen is because of that younger generation. They have showed up every day by the thousands, and they're staying on this, and they're not going to stop. They're going to keep showing up and speaking up until there's progress. And I am, I do have a lot of hope when it comes to Justin Pearson and Justin Jones both coming back to the legislature. Because if their county commission or metro council appoints them, there's a little bit of a legal glitch there.

There's a disagreement about whether they can come back in the 113th General Assembly or they have to wait to 24 in the 114th. But lawyers I've talked to think that there is no difference between which session they come back. They could very well be reappointed by their locals in the next few weeks. Representative, thank you for being with us again this morning. We appreciate it. We should point out, it's not like you got a free ride yesterday. 65 of your fellow members voted to expel you. 66 would have expelled you. So you survived by one vote. But you started to get into it there. I'm curious for people watching, if this does happen, if these two colleagues of yours are thrown out of the House and the

will of the voters are overturned. Would there be a special election in their districts, one from Memphis, one from Nashville? Or what is the recourse exactly here? Yes, immediately, that would be an appointment from the Metro Council in Nashville or County Commission in Shelby County. And then within a few months, there would be a special election for that seat. And we're expecting those young men to come back. That is my hope. Tennessee State Representative Gloria Johnson, thank you very much for coming on Morning Joe this morning. We appreciate it.

I want to go to Charlie Sykes. Hey, Charlie, you know, I had somebody call me yesterday and say, well, you know, you look at Wisconsin and that seems to be, you put that in good silo. That's where we're going in the right direction. You look at Tennessee, that shows where this country is going in the wrong direction. And actually, the two go together. And it's just what we talked about. This is a Republican Party that is so radically disassociated from where the middle of America is, where middle class Americans are, where middle America is, where the Midwest is, where the upper Midwest is, where swing voters, independent voters,

Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Georgia, Arizona, every place that counts. I guarantee you all those voters see this and they go, my God, they're not even pretending. They're not bigots. They're not even pretending anymore. And and they're kicking these people out because they were upset about nine year old girls getting slaughtered in a schoolhouse, in a Christian schoolhouse. I think the two go together, Charlie. I think Wisconsin is the result of 100 Tennessees before it. And there'll be more. Joe, my problem with this whole story is the stupidity. It burns. What were the Republicans in Tennessee hoping to accomplish here? They look horrible. They have made superstars out of the Tennessee three. These are three extraordinarily impressive and eloquent figures that you never would have heard of if it weren't for this vindictive retaliation by the Republicans who decided that we have a supermajority and we can do this.

And, of course, that's the same story in Wisconsin, where the Republicans have a supermajority. And one of the reasons why they're sort of quietly talking about, hey, well, you know, we could actually impeach liberal Supreme Court justices if they make rulings we don't like. Now, legislators I've talked to say we're not going to do that. That would be chaotic. It would be futile. It would be stupid. four, where the the base demands this kind of action. All you need is one tweet or bleep out of Mar-a-Lago where, you know, Donald Trump says, why aren't the rhinos in Wisconsin expelling members of the legislature? Why aren't they impeaching justices? And what happens? Will they cave in? But this story out of Tennessee is so extraordinary to me because it is such a case of political malpractice. You know, you are really you think of American politics. There are I mean, not to be disrespectful, but to be a member of a minority member, a member of the minority party in the Tennessee lower house is a pretty obscure position. As a result of what happened yesterday, all three of these

individuals are now superstars. They are martyrs and they are exactly everywhere. And their message is going to be amplified in a way that it would be absolutely impossible without this Republican overreach. So the stupidity is at ramming speed right now. And there's no indication that Republicans in Wisconsin or Tennessee are engaging in any kind of a pivot or course correction. They're doubling down on abortion. They're doubling down on the attacks on democracy. They're doubling down on extreme positions on gun control. And I have to say, it's just I would love to be in the room where Republicans are talking about this. And and they're explaining why this is a smart, intelligent thing to do that advances their agenda, because I can't figure it out at all.

Like you said, the stupidity burns. You've got really good. You've got you've got, again, two members who were in relative obscurity in the lower house in the Tennessee legislature, state house, Mika, who are now, again, political stars for good reasons. I mean, we've looked at them go, oh, my gosh, these guys, great speakers. They have a future. They're dynamic. The idiots in Tennessee and the majority martyred them in front of in front of the world. This is going to continue to energize younger voters. It's going to energize black voters going into 24. It's going to energize everybody that Republicans don't want to energize. Watch these two members go out. They're going to start raising money for causes that are going to help Democrats

and hurt Republicans. And Mika, just talking about, again, drawing the straight line from Wisconsin down to Tennessee. Charlie said so eloquently, what happened in Tennessee was just pure political negligence. You draw a straight line, as the Wall Street Journal editorial page yesterday, the same sort of negligence that would have Wisconsin Republicans keep a law banning abortion, total, almost a total abortion ban from 1849 on the books going into that election this week. And they were warned. They knew it was coming. They couldn't get out of the way. It's the same thing in Tennessee. And they really are pushing that. They just keep pushing their party and future chances over a cliff.

And again, the stupidity of it burns. That's such a great line because it really it wasn't lost on a lot of the young people who showed up yesterday who were, you know, thinking about what to write on their signs to stop, you know, gun reform, pro-democracy, we're for our democracy. They want to write. One of them just wrote, what the, and I'll replace the word with heck. Just like, what is going on? What's going on? You all are so stupid. And it is political malpractice because this will come back to bite them. And they have created three heroes, political heroes who really stand up for the will of the people as opposed to right wing craziness.

And the overwhelming majority of the people. President. Poll after poll after poll after poll. I mean, read them. President Biden is condemning the actions of the Tennessee House of Representatives. He released a statement reading in part this. Today's expulsion of lawmakers who engaged in peaceful protest is shocking, undemocratic and without precedent. Rather than debating the merits of the issue, these Republican lawmakers have chosen to punish, silence and expel duly elected representatives of the people of Tennessee. So the president making it very clear where he stands on this.

And Jen Psaki, not really hard also to draw a straight line to this in election deniers. People who say it doesn't matter who got elected. It doesn't matter who gets the most votes. If we have the power, we're going to do whatever we want to do. We'll throw out elections anytime we feel like it. And yesterday, two of those three elections thrown out. That's exactly right. I mean, I think what's so interesting here and Charlie really hit the nail on the head is you have to be careful in politics what you shine a light on. And what the Republicans did here is they shine a light

on these superstars, as everybody has already said, at a time in Tennessee where you had a thousand people, kids protesting in the streets to gun violence, kids who are in elementary school, middle school, just a little bit older because they're outraged and they're sick of it. And so what they're doing here is they are empowering the movement for more gun reforms, not the opposite. Short-term gain for them with what they did, which was outrageous yesterday, but a long-term potential benefit for those who are advocates of more action to address gun violence, which is not what they intended, I'm certain.

And let me just—let me just add here, if I can. I mean, part of the story, to me at least, is that the Republican Party and states specifically, but nationally too, is in this sort of closed off ecosystem. They consume from similar news outlets, but they're also not really threatened electorally because they've gerrymandered themselves. And so when you're a state-based Republican in Tennessee, you don't feel necessarily the backlash that you yourself are unleashing through actions like this. I mean, if you looked at the numbers in the votes yesterday, it was 75 to 25. That's like a huge gulf in power there.

And it allows them to do these types of actions that I think we all agree are on the table will probably end up backfiring. And I guess my question for you, Gene, is, you know, if you're a Democrat watching this, obviously you feel great in the moment. You think, you know, this is energizing for our base. It's elevating these young lawmakers to new heights. It will backfire on Republicans. But isn't that coupled with the sort of resignation that the system itself is so gerrymandered and in effect rigged to certain outcomes in Tennessee that, yeah, we could talk about gun control laws or, you know, fundraising from this moment. But things probably are not going to change. Well, not in the short term, Sam, but I think what this does is I think energize the Democratic Party in Tennessee, the base.

It shines a light on how will not like in the future. So, no, immediately, it doesn't—there's nothing they can do. Seventy-five, twenty-five, That's pretty clear. But look at those numbers, you know, five years, six years, 10 years from now. I'm betting they're going to be different. I'm betting that the sort of ground-roots organizing that you need to change that ratio has just gotten a turbo boost from what Republicans did. And I want to point out one other thing. Gloria Johnson, who was so eloquent on this program earlier, one reason she cares so much about gun violence is that she was a teacher.

She survived a school shooting in Knoxville in, I think, 2008, 2009. So this is an intensely personal issue for her. It's a it should be a personal issue, I think, for everyone. And the Tennessee legislature has not heard the last of it. You know, the thing is, there is and I agree with Gene. This is this is a moment that's just going to expand out. And Charlie, we look at January the 6th. We look before that the election denying. Right. And everybody was fretting about that for good, good damn reason.

It ends up the election deniers lost all the swing swing seats. January 6th. It hurt. It hurt Republicans. Again, it keeps going in the straight line. You can look at a former president talking about terminating the Constitution. He's still, after indictments, after saying he wants to terminate the Constitution, after baseball bats against DA's heads, you actually have Republicans still lining up behind him. You've got an abortion law from 1849 when Zachary Taylor was president of the United States in Wisconsin. Again, it's all the same thing, the same stupidity. You've got Republicans like going up against 90 percent of Americans. When you talk about when you talk about universal background checks on all gun

purchases, 90 percent of Americans, they're on the wrong side there. Again, it's the extremism. You look at like I could not believe what I read last night. The lawyers for Fox News and the Dominion case just to show how, again, just. Just this entire world is in this bubble that has no bearing. The reality is it's costing them. They're trying to stop, if I understood the pleadings correctly, any mention of January 6th in the proceedings. Because January 6th, just the mentioning of January 6th, they believe would be harmful to their case. That would be like saying you can't talk about Pearl Harbor. You can't talk about 9-11.

If you're talking about one of the major events of our time and even the mere mentioning of it being discriminatory against your case and hurting you, that suggests, again, a different set of facts that people are living by. And you wrap that up in this Republican Party, all the craziness that we've been talking about, it's crushing them at the ballot box year after year after year. It is almost as if they are addicted to losing. Look, I'm sitting here in Ozaukee County in Wisconsin, used to be a 67, 68 percent Republican county. Now it's evenly divided. So I think we've been telling ourselves for some time nothing matters. Donald Trump could shoot somebody in the middle of Fifth Avenue and people would still vote for him and some will. But this is the problem with the Republican Party.

It is in this bubble. It is in this hermetically sealed alternative reality. So they don't really understand, I think, how they are looking. And every one of the issues you just mentioned, they are doubling down on election denialism. If they go with Donald Trump, they're going to be looking back and airing the grievances of 2020, as opposed to talking about the issues that they claim to care about. Right. The issue of abortion, a six week ban down in in Florida, legislation in Wisconsin that does not include exemptions for rape and incest. Rhonda Sanders just signing a bill that allows people to carry concealed weapons without any permit, without any background check.

These are not issues that appeal to middle America. And yet, because they are so focused on their base, because they are so beholden to the id of the fever swamps, they cannot break away from this. And I think you're seeing that. You saw that in Wisconsin this week, and you're seeing it in Tennessee as well. I mean, look at that Tennessee legislature. I mean, first of all, just take a picture sometime of that legislature. It looks like something out of 1947. You know, all of these old white guys, you know, raise my hand here, you know, sitting around. And and this transformation of the party is really quite extraordinary because, you know, Joe, help me with this. Do you remember when the Tennessee Republican Party was actually moderate, reasonable, centrist? When it had people like Lamar Alexander, it had Bob Corker, it had a lot of very impressive guys. Look where they are right now.

I mean, my God, Howard Baker. I mean, they had people that actually, they actually sent people to Washington that ran Washington. It was great. It was great for the people of Tennessee. And it was really good for the Republican Party. Bill Frist. They had people that were majority leaders in the Senate. And it's because they sent people up who were conservative. But at the same time, they they they didn't they didn't wrap themselves around extremist positions or conspiracy theories. It's a great point. Charlie, thank you so much, as always, for being with us.

We greatly appreciate it. And, you know, Willie, we talk about just how Republicans, these Trump Republicans have been living in an alternate reality. And we've brought up from time to time. I don't like to bring up other networks, but we've brought up from time to time when we've just had to. Some of the extremist positions that really are warping the political views of too many Americans. Like, for instance, Fox News saying that U.S. Army helicopters that were being used in Afghanistan were coming over and they were going to be used against people in America that voted against Donald Trump, that the FBI was going to come and kick down doors and go after people who voted for Donald Trump. All of these lies, all of this extremism, all of these attacks on our United States military that's actually hurting recruiting right now because of their big lies

continuing, attacking the men and women in uniform. And I've got to say, I just want to read this to you. It's just shocking to me. Fox News has asked a judge to prohibit references to the January 6th insurrection at the Dominion trial. Quote, any reference to the Capitol riot will only unfairly prejudice the jury against Fox. Let me say that again. Any reference to the Capitol riot will only unfairly prejudice the jury against Fox. I mean, this is almost an admission that they believed reasonable jury members would blame them for January 6th.

It's as incredible as if MSNBC said to a judge, you can't mention 9-11 or CNN said you can't mention Pearl Harbor or just go back. This is so crazy. And it continues where where you you have this case about election denialism. And this is being brought in. I really I've got to say, I find that hard to believe. Well, it's almost as if the lawyers representing Fox News in this case know that if the obvious line is drawn between the lies that were told on their network and elsewhere about the 2020 election being stolen in this case specifically about Dominion's voting machines being used, connected to satellites that change the votes from Donald Trump to Joe Biden or whatever the conspiracy theory is, I've lost track,

that if a jury drew that line, that it would be quite obvious that they participated in that. We'll see if a judge allows that to be excluded from the case, but it would seem like what's actually at the heart of this case in terms of Dominion. All right. Still ahead on Morning Joe, House Republicans rally to aid Donald Trump after his indictment, issuing a subpoena for a former prosecutor in the Manhattan District Attorney's Office who was involved in a criminal probe of the former president. Jackie Alimany joins us with new reporting from The Washington Post. Plus, we'll have the latest on the Wall Street Journal reporter imprisoned by the Kremlin as hundreds of Russian journalists and activists reportedly demand his immediate release.

Also ahead, a new report from the White House largely blames the Trump administration for the chaotic U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan. Those details are ahead. We'll discuss all of that with ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Jim Himes. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. Live picture as the sun comes up over the United States Capitol on a Friday morning. House Republicans there are ramping up their investigation into the Manhattan D.A.'s office following the indictment of former President Donald Trump. House Judiciary Chairman Jim Jordan now has issued a subpoena to Mark Pomerantz. He's a former Manhattan prosecutor who previously led the investigation into Trump's finances before resigning last year. In a letter accompanying that subpoena, Congressman Jordan says Pomerantz's former role makes

him, quote, uniquely situated to provide information that is relevant and necessary to that committee's probe into Manhattan D.A. Alvin Bragg's office. Bragg later released a statement responding to the subpoena of Pomerantz, writing in part, The House GOP continues to attempt to undermine an active investigation in ongoing New York criminal case with an unprecedented campaign of harassment and intimidation. Repeated efforts to weaken state and local law enforcement actions are an abuse of power and will not deter us from our duty to uphold the law.

Joining us now, congressional investigations reporter for The Washington Post, Jackie Alimany. Jackie, good morning. So give us a little bit more of your reporting on this, if you will, and remind people who Mark Pomerantz is. He was on this show a couple of months ago with a new book in which he criticizes Alvin Bragg for not moving faster in these prosecutions of Donald Trump. That's right, Willie. Mark Pomerantz resigned last year due to frustrations. He was serving under Alvin Bragg as a prosecutor and felt that the investigations into former President Donald Trump

were not moving fast enough. He resigned again out of frustration. And in his book, Donald Trump versus the people, he outlines this idea that everyone on his legal team, the team that was investigating potential financial crimes that Trump committed, harbored no doubts about the fact that Donald Trump committed a crime or multiple crimes, which is potentially what Jim Jordan might hear from Pomerantz if he ultimately decides to appear before the committee. But obviously, he's a ripe target for Jim Jordan as they're trying to sort of tease out and and bolster this case that the DA's office has weaponized the judicial system against conservatives. Yeah, Pomerantz's criticism of Alvin Bragg was not that he was being too hard on Donald Trump, it's that he wasn't being, excuse me, hard enough or moving fast enough. NBC News legal analyst Andrew Weissman said this last night about the subpoena.

When I heard that today, I was thinking Jim Jordan is going to have another sort of, you know, dud on his hands, because so far that has really backfired for him. Putting Mark Pomerantz, who was used to lead this case in front of the American people, we know what he's going to say because he wrote a book. The book was unauthorized. It's just his version. There's been some controversy about whether it's accurate or not. But this is what he says in his book. Donald Trump is guilty and he should have been prosecuted long ago.

The picture doesn't get better for Trump. He should have been prosecuted for more than what he's been prosecuted for. That's going to be a very odd thing for a Republican to elicit to the American people. So there was a part of me that was like, I mean, bring it on. So, Jackie, what does Congressman Jordan hope to get out of these hearings, out of this weaponization committee, other than maybe slowing down the process and gumming it up a little bit, which obviously hasn't worked because the former president was indicted a couple of days ago? the waters by really throwing anything into the mix that might provide Republicans with an opportunity to criticize investigations into Donald Trump. But Jordan has stated that he believes that Pomerantz's book and the pressure that it might have put on Alvin Bragg bolsters their case that Bragg acted out of political motivations as opposed to moving because of,

for legal reasons, as a prosecutor. But I think that, you know, the point that a lot of Democrats are now making, that it's a double-edged sword here, that if Mark Pomerantz actually does testify or provide documents and records, he's going to continue to make this case that Donald Trump is guilty of several crimes, then he's going to be doing the exact opposite of Jim Jordan, what Jim Jordan had hoped to be doing. Of course, I should note I'm in the middle of Pomerantz's book actually right now, but he does point out and outline some of the reasons why Bragg might have decided not to bring the case earlier. He lists through some of these hurdles, some of which Bragg has already addressed, such as

sort of elevating these charges from a misdemeanor to a felony. But some of the other hurdles that Pomerantz talks about was a statute of limitations, along with evidence issues and bringing forward potentially a tarnished witness in Michael Cohen. So if Pomerantz, again, were to appear before the committee, he would have to discuss sort of the full array of what he has already publicly said. Jack Gates, Sam Stein here. Again, this I was mentioning in last block, but this just goes to the idea that I think Republicans are living in sort of a closed-off media ecosystem where they think bringing in someone who's on the record saying Trump should be prosecuted and committed more crimes than he's being prosecuted for, bringing him in as a key witness.

I guess my question, though, for you is sort of a technical one, which is, will the subpoena work? Do they have a leg to stand on? Could Pomerantz just say, look, this is an ongoing investigation. I'm not going to talk about it. I'm not going to prejudice it. And if he does fight the subpoena, what do you suspect Republicans will do after that? Well, that is what Pomerantz is being advised to do right now. And he's previously told the Judiciary Committee that he wouldn't be providing records or documents when they initially sent him a request.

This was prior to the subpoena. But the general counsel from the Manhattan DA's office has advised that Pomerantz not cooperate with this. It is longstanding policy, federally and locally, to not divulge any details about an ongoing investigation, which is why this subpoena is a bit unprecedented, although not as unprecedented and escalatory if this subpoena had gone bit unprecedented, although not as unprecedented and escalatory if this subpoena had gone to Alvin Bragg, because obviously Mark Pomerantz no longer works for the district attorney's office. But I think Pomerantz has a little bit of a tricky case here because he

has spoken publicly about the investigation. He divulged details in, as Willie noted, an unauthorized book about the investigation. And that is the argument I think you're going to hear Republicans beat the drum on going forward, that Pomerantz has no reason to flout this subpoena, although that is coming from a chairman who himself flouted a subpoena from the January 6th committee just last year. The Washington Post, Jackie Alimany, thank you once again for being on this week. And Sam Stein, thank you as well. Good to have you. So there's more news. The chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee is promising the panel will take action following a damning report on Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. A lengthy piece published yesterday by ProPublica details luxury trips

Justice Thomas allegedly took nearly every year for more than two decades, which were paid for by a Republican mega donor, Harlan Crow. As the New York Times points out, there is no formal code of conduct for the Supreme Court regarding such trips, but Thomas never reported any of them in his financial disclosures, which justices are required to do under the Ethics and Government Act of 1978. It says any gift of more than $415 must be reported to avoid even a, quote, appearance of impropriety. According to ProPublica, in 2019, Justice Thomas and his wife, Jenny, took Crow's private jet to Indonesia for a nine-day island tour on Crow's superyacht. ProPublica estimates the trip would have cost more than half a million dollars.

And this wasn't Thomas's only trip on that super yacht. He also took an extended cruise in New Zealand roughly a decade ago. Crowe said in a statement that he has never sought to influence the justice. The Supreme Court, meanwhile, did not immediately respond to requests for comment. Justice Thomas did not respond to ProPublica's questions. In a statement yesterday, Senate Judiciary Committee Chair Dick Durbin wrote, quote, the highest court in the land shouldn't have the lowest ethical standards. Adding this behavior is simply inconsistent with the ethical standards the American people expect of any public servant,

let alone a justice on the Supreme Court. So, Jen Psaki, no laws were broken. But your thoughts? Well, no laws were broken is small solace to most people in the American public who are waking up and thinking, what on earth? A Supreme Court justice took this nine day cruise to Indonesia that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. I think, Mika, looking at just this week of stories for the Republicans, obviously, we've talked a lot this morning already about what happened in Tennessee. But you have Donald Trump, the former president, thinking he's above the law and should not be succumbed to the justice system

everybody else is. You have Fox News, where they are continuing to provide lies knowingly to the public, thinking the public is dumb. And then you have a Supreme Court justice who is living by a different set of rules. This is the kind of stuff that the public looks at and they think, this is out of whack. This is not what we want the pillars of government to be representing. And that's why I think this story could actually stick with people, you know, in the public. And the Supreme Court has already gotten popular. It's lost popularity over the past couple of years. That's why there has been a movement, in part because of Dobbs, but also because of stuff like this.

And that's why there has been a movement for court expansion and a lot of discussion about that from a number of Democrats. I think we also must keep in mind that Jenny Thomas, who was Clarence Thomas's wife, has been questioned a lot about whether she was influencing her husband. So now we have a question of her husband getting hundreds of thousands of dollars over many years from Crow, a big Republican donor. The issue really should not be whether or not Crow influenced him. The issue is why he didn't disclose it. And if we're not going to set up situations where there are penalties and some level of punishment, if not more serious, when you do not disclose what you suppose to

disclose, then what are we talking about? We're not talking about a Donald Trump who thinks he's above the law. We're talking about a man who writes the law and won't disclose it. And I think, Gene, when we look at this, it's as bad as it gets. I think we shouldn't over overjump the runway here by saying, well, the Crow influence, it doesn't that does matter. first thing is, how do you let a justice get away with not disclosing what he got that was valued in the hundreds of thousands of dollars? How do we just act like that's all right? We don't, Rev. I mean, look, this is a justice of the U.S. Supreme Court who interprets the law, who knows the law. And the law is very clear. He has worked for the federal government. He's been a public servant for a long time. Before he was a Supreme Court

justice, he absolutely knows that this had to be disclosed, yet he didn't disclose it, and especially the travel, this travel by public jet. You live in and around Washington. You know a lot of people who work for the federal government, and you know that it's one thing if you have a wealthy friend and you go visit and they let you stay in the guest room or the guest house for a few days. That's a few days. That's, you know, gray area. But the travel by private jet is absolutely, there's nothing gray about it. This should have been disclosed. It never should have been accepted by justice of the Supreme Court. But this is really, really ugly.

And I think people won't get this. I think people will understand that this is, frankly, corrupt.