Morning Joe - Morning Joe 5/12/23

Episode Date: May 12, 2023

Fallout after Trump town hall

why did you take those documents with you when you left the White House? I had every right to under the Presidential Records Act. You have the Presidential Records Act. I was there and I took what I took and it gets declassified. Biden, on the other hand, he has 1850 boxes. He had boxes sent to Chinatown, Chinatown, where they don't speak even English in that Chinatown we're talking about. Can I, I got to stop you right there.

Nobody talks about him, they talk about us. Just so you understand, I had every right to do it. I didn't make a secret of it. When it comes to your documents, did you ever show those classified documents to anyone? Not really. I would have the right to. By the way, they were declassified. Not that I can think of. Let me just tell you, I have the absolute right to do whatever I want with them. I have the right. Former President Trump facing new legal and political fallout following that CNN town hall. We'll take a look at the comments that may have stood out to prosecutors as some Republicans now voice concern over remarks Donald Trump made, including those. Also this morning, we're

following the surge at the southern border as immigration restrictions known as Title 42 came to an end just hours ago. We'll have a report from Texas and speak with the secretary of Homeland Security live in just a bit. Plus, a debt ceiling meeting between President Biden and top congressional leaders is postponed. What that means for the looming debt crisis. Good morning. Welcome to Morning Joe. It is Friday, May 12th. With us this morning, the host of Way Too Early, White House Bureau Chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, U.S. Special Correspondent for BBC News, Katty Kaye, Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist and associate editor of The Washington Post, Eugene Robinson, and the host of MSNBC's Inside with Jen Psaki. Jen Psaki, she is a former White House press secretary. So,

Joe, let's go back to the comments that Donald Trump made at the town hall about the Mar-a-Lago documents invoking inaccurately the Presidential Records Act and again saying, quote, I took what I took. Yes, he says, I took those classified documents with me to Mar-a-Lago. Maybe I showed them to some people. I don't remember. But he says I certainly had the right to just kind of laying out a trail here as Jack Smith and others prosecute this case about classified documents. You know, Politico's Jack Schaefer basically had a message for all of us who are concerned about the CNN town hall meeting. It was stop whining and get over it. This guy has put himself in more legal jeopardy than ever before.

And Jack Schaefer's point was right on this point. He said, I can do whatever I want to do with these these classified documents, which, of course, is false. They become declassified the second I take them. The second you remember, he was saying, if I even think they're declassified, they become declassified. It sounds like a superpower Dr. Evil had out of Austin Power or something. But but he really showed his arrogance in a way that's going to really hurt him legally and also hurt him politically, where he says, I can do whatever I want to do with classified documents. What does that sound like? I can do whatever I want to do because I'm a star with women, he says, where he says he can sexually abuse women because he's been a star. He said that in there, fortunately or unfortunately, the deposition. But there he doubled

down on the Access Hollywood tape. And so all of that, all of that's obviously going to hurt him. And also he exposed himself most likely to another defamation suit from Eugene Carroll because he can't help himself. And it's probably going to cost him another three, four or five million dollars because a jury of his peers. I mean, this is pretty straightforward. He defamed her once again. And so, yeah, that that town hall meeting ended up being costly for a lot of people. It's going to be especially costly, I think, politically and going to be costly economically for Donald Trump because and and legally in a criminal sense, because I think he gave Jack Smith just what he wanted. So I hope getting a couple of people in the audience who were laughing and cheering when he insulted the host, when he insulted E. Gene Carroll.

I hope that was worth it for him because it's going to cost him a lot. You know, he's operated with such impunity over the course of his adult life and he still operates with that mindset. But now it's caught up to him, beginning with E. Gene Carroll. He's got the indictment in New York City and, of course, everything that's ahead of him in terms of Jack Smith's two investigations and what's going on in Georgia. We've heard we'll hear some charges come down this summer from the D.A. in Fulton County. NBC's Garrett Haig took a look for us at the legal peril Donald faces, in part because of what he said the other night on CNN. Former President Donald Trump. Former President Trump's first televised town hall of the 2024 campaign,

potentially creating new legal and political challenges for the Republican frontrunner. With an attorney for E. Jean Carroll telling the New York Times she may sue Mr. Trump for defamation again over his latest attacks. I have no idea who this woman is. she may sue Mr. Trump for defamation again over his latest attacks. I have no idea who this woman is. This is a fake story, made-up story. I have no idea who the hell... She's a whack job. Just two days after a jury found Mr. Trump liable

for sexually abusing Ms. Carroll in the mid-'90s and for defaming her in his denials. And legal experts tell NBC News Mr. Trump may have complicated his own defense in the special counsel investigation into his handling of classified documents, appearing to contradict his lawyer's claims that documents got to his Florida home by accident. I had every right to do it. I didn't make a secret of it. Garrett Haik reporting there.

Then there, of course, is the political backlash to that town hall, not just from Democrats. Speaking to reporters yesterday, a handful of Republican senators rejected Trump's positions on issues like the war in Ukraine, the debt ceiling and his characterization of the January 6th insurrection as what he called a, quote, beautiful day. I mean, does it worry you that your party's meeting presidential candidate? Of course it does. That's why I don't intend to support him for the Republican nomination. Who do you want to support? I haven't decided yet. It won't be him. And what's the reason for you not supporting him? Where do I begin? We as Republicans aren't going to win unless we can convince independents in swing states why we're better than the mess that we've got now.

And if you can't do that, I think you're not very articulate at what we should be saying. I think the American public is confused. You couldn't have more to work with than what the Biden administration has dished up, and yet we're here pivoting on it being, we've got the right message. We should have the right message. It clearly needs to be aimed at independence in the middle. I think that currently the leader of the Republican Party is Ron DeSantis. Until Ron DeSantis gets in this race, everything we do to talk about President Trump and quite frankly,

other candidates is just premature. Are you ruling out endorsing President Trump? I've said that what I'm going to do is look at Tim Scott, who I think is going to be running. So again, if you're listening on the radio, that was Todd Young, Mike Braun, both of Indiana, Cynthia Loomis of Wyoming and Mike Rounds as well. Senators, Republicans speaking out against Donald Trump. So, Joe, we've heard some of this over the last couple of days from Republicans on Capitol Hill, mostly from the Senate condemning a lot of what Donald Trump said and sort of wish casting Ron DeSantis as the leader of the Republican Party. I guess we'll have to wait and see because we've learned this lesson over the last eight years or so, if Donald Trump muscles Ron DeSantis out of the way and

looks clear that he's going to be the nominee if everyone then falls in line again. The difference is, of course, they have the experience of losing in 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, and especially in 22, Eugene Robinson, where, you know, Joe Biden made historic gains for, as Newt Gingrich said, once again, underestimated for a president going in to his first midterm elections. He did better than any other president since 1934 when it came to terms of, like, for instance, governorship. He did exceedingly well. He outperformed everywhere. And so much of that has to do with, well, Joe Biden got a lot of things done, but also Donald Trump.

I'm going to keep saying it, going to keep saying it, as a National Review writer said before the 22 election, when voters are talking about Donald Trump, Democrats win. When voters are talking about Joe Biden, Republicans win. Donald voters are talking about Joe Biden, Republicans win. Donald Trump goes out and he does something like that, which is horrifying to so many people. Well, yeah, that also I guarantee you that's the best the Biden campaign has felt since since they announced, because he reminds everybody, everybody with every tweet, with every performance on TV like that. Every time he says he can sexually assault a woman because he's a star. Every time he says he can do what he wants to do with classified documents.

Every time he kisses up to Vladimir Putin. Every time he says it in the Ukrainian war in one day. Every time he says he's going to pardon convicts that beat the hell out of cops. Every time he says that January 6th was a beautiful day. Every time he says that the election was rigged when the overwhelming majority of Americans disagree with him on all of these things. That is a huge win for Biden. That is a huge win for Democrats. But, you know, Trump doesn't care that he's damaging the Republican Party. Never has, never will. And his most intense supporters are just clueless still on this matter, even after all the losses. Yeah. Yeah. Some Republicans act as if

Donald Trump is ever going to care about the Republican Party or the future of the Republican Party. He doesn't care about the Republican Party. He cares about Donald Trump. And some of those senators, fortunately, have have realized that, you know, right after the debate, President Biden sent out a fundraising tweet that the first line was, you want four more years of that? Because which was perfect. I mean, it was absolutely true. You just saw what you would get for four years. Donald Trump, perhaps worse than the last four years of Donald Trump.

You are right that he does seem to have further incriminated himself on a bunch of levels. We should, where to begin with the fact checking? No, Joe Biden did not have 850 or 1850 boxes of documents in some Chinatown where they don't speak English. It's completely made up. But again... Oh, and Gene, can I just interject really quickly on that point, too? Let's just say it because Donald Trump won't say the truth, won't tell the truth.

The difference between Joe Biden and Donald Trump, the difference between Mike Pence and Donald Trump, is Joe Biden and Mike Pence both volunteered. Hey, we found some documents. You guys want to come get it? Donald Trump never did that. They had to find out. They had to go down there with people on the inside telling them what he had. And then he lied. He obstructed justice and continued lying about keeping the documents.

So, yeah, there's that. It doesn't matter how many boxes Mike Pence had. It doesn't matter how many boxes Mike Pence had. It doesn't matter how many boxes Joe Biden had. The fact is, when they found him, they called the feds and said, hey, come get these. Right. And Donald Trump did completely the opposite. He obstructed for for a year hiding documents. He said he'd give a few back and say he had given everything back and he hadn't. It's there's no comparison, really.

So we'll see how all the legal processes go and where that leaves us when we get closer to the election. But again, it did show with that very pro-Trump audience at the town hall, it showed that he is still the dominant figure in the party. And where is Ron DeSantis? What is he doing? What is he saying? Will he get in the race at all? And if he does, what are his prospects while Trump is sort of getting the old band together? And just in case our audience is confused by Donald Trump invoking Chinatown all the time, that's where some of the boxes Chinatown in Washington, D.C. in an office is where some of the boxes were stored. But Donald Trump and others

presented as something nefarious connected to the Chinese government or something. It's Chinatown in Washington, D.C. So, Jen, you were there with Joe Biden when he ran against Donald Trump in 2020. Obviously, a little bit of a different thing here in 2024, because when you all were running, Donald Trump had not yet led an attempted coup against the government. January 6th had not yet happened. All of those things that we now have to deal with and are in the equation. So from your point of view, from talking to your old friends who are now in the White House or working on the campaign, how is President Biden, how is his team looking at this race differently than the previous one against Donald Trump?

Such a good question, Will. I mean, that's what it's all about. I mean, first of all, you've heard the White House team, my former colleagues there, preview kind of what some of the messages are going to be. Competence versus chaos. Right. Which basically means, look, Joe Biden's being president. You can like him. You can not like him politically. He's trying to do the best job he can possibly do and work on the issues you care about. That over there is crazy town.

Right. That's chaotic. That is too much for everybody. And what we saw at the town hall, and I think if you're sitting in the White House right now, this is how you take it in, is a lot of that chaos, that crazy. That's just too much over there. And elections are often, Willie, about how people feel and how people feel in the country. So this is a bit different now, because, of course, yes, there are potential additional indictments. There's already one. But it's also about the stakes of a second term and how much worse that could possibly be, because then you're looking at an untethered Trump, an untethered Trump who is not going to abide by any rules whatsoever. We saw some of that in the town hall. We should default. Maybe I'm rooting for Putin. All of the insane things he said about democracy that I think is going to be part of their message to the stakes of a second term and how it's worse than a first.

Yeah. And, you know, Jonathan O'Meara, first of all, congratulations on the Celtics surviving another day. And Matt Whitlock, who, you know, has worked for Mitch McConnell's work for the Republican Party. He's worked for for an awful lot of people inside Washington, D.C. And as you know, he's he's a partisan Republican. I just mean that he's a tough fighter for the Republican Party. This is what he said after this performance of Trump's the other night. Trump's performance tonight had plenty of fun fodder for his biggest fans, but it was toxic nuclear waste for the moderates and independents. He and Republicans should be winning. And that that just sums up the night. Yeah. People inside there love that

Donald Trump was shocked. And I'll say this. And you look at Twitter. It's so it's I'm sorry. It's kind of funny. Right. It's kind of funny. These these people think that they're getting the best of, quote, the libs. Oh, the libs are melting down if they say that Donald Trump shouldn't go around saying that he can sexually assault people. Oh, the libs are melting down because he says Putin's a great guy, et cetera. No, libs aren't melting down. The libs are just saying that maybe that shouldn't be broadcast to millions and millions and millions of Americans. But it ends up damaging them time and time and time again. As Matt said, it is nuclear waste for Republicans. You go back and see what I've said over the past year.

I've been saying to Republicans time and time again, you can win next year's election, but you're not going to do it with Donald Trump. That's a pretty clear, concise election. And that's what every Republican, every Republican that has half a brain about politics is thinking. I mean, you look at 22 and you look at just the disaster that was for Republicans, because when Donald Trump got involved, almost every time Republicans lost. What independent or swing voter or undecided voter looked at that the other night and said, that's my guy. And particularly those suburban women voters who have decided the last few elections.

So much of what Trump said would seem to be repulsive to them. And there certainly wouldn't come back to them him next time around. To further to further Jen's point, certainly if another Republican were to emerge as the nominee, the dynamics of this race would change dramatically. But the White House from the beginning has said they believe Trump is going to be there for the Republicans in the end. And they like their chances in this rematch for all the reasons we've talked about. And that allows them, Katty, to sort of skirt over some of the vulnerabilities the incumbent president has, whether it's concerns about the economy, concerns about his age, concerns about the border with Title 42 lifting. There are some moments where Joe Biden, though

his legislative record is strong, is vulnerable. Polling suggests that. Polling suggests that Americans aren't totally sold, but they feel like the town hall the other night shows them that they can rerun the 2020 campaign and say, look, look at that. You don't want that. So my question to you is, is that enough? Is it enough for Joe Biden simply to not be Donald Trump? Is that in itself a ticket to another four years? Look, in my conversations with the White House, they're trying very hard not to crow about the fact that it's most likely Donald Trump who they're going to be running against and not Ron DeSantis, who they thought could bring in a broader appeal of independence. But, yeah, they will also say we know the playbook. We ran this in 2020. We beat him in 2020. And we don't, frankly, think very much has changed. Does it allow them to skirt over the elephant in the room, which is the age issue, which seems to show up in polling? However fair or unfair it is, it shows up in polling much more as a negative for Joe Biden than it does for Donald Trump. No,

they also realize they have to address that in the ways in which they present the president out on the campaign trail, in the ways they're all trying to boost Kamala Harris's approval numbers so that she can go out and do some of the heavy lifting during the campaign so that she can reassure voters that she is a viable alternative worth something to happen to Joe Biden. So they're conscious of all of that. But, you know, they look at the numbers. If you look at those three states, Michigan, Arizona and Georgia, the Republican nominee will have to take all three. Joe Biden only has to get one of them to get to that magic 270. And you look at what happened in that town hall and you wonder

about the suburbs of Atlanta, the suburbs of Phoenix, the suburbs of Detroit. And you have to think, you know, how does a performance like that go down in those places? I mean, you're exactly right. The suburbs of Atlanta, the suburbs of Philly, they're gone. They're gone. If it's Donald Trump, they're gone. If it's Ron DeSantis, it's up for grabs. The suburbs of Detroit, gone. The suburbs of Milwaukee, gone. I mean, you go through all that. Phoenix, gone. I mean, that's that's the dilemma that the Republican Party is once again facing. They got a guy who may do well in the primary who's going to lose in the general election.

I just want to circle back, Gene, though. There was a there was ABC News Washington Post poll that came out this past weekend. And you talk about some of the Obama people would always talk about Democratic bedwetting. Let me tell you something. All the beds in Washington, D.C. were wet after that poll came out. Just the fear and loathing, the tears, the weeping, the gnashing of teeth. What else can I throw under that pile over one poll? Yesterday, we showed a poll that showed him that Joe Biden at 43 percent among adults. I think I think Alex said, if you really want to do apples to apples, he was at 47

percent among the registered voters, 47 percent. The poll last week had him at 38 percent. It also had him beating Donald Trump in a head to head matchup. I wonder if we're going to hear about that for a week. I wonder if we're going to hear about this Economist-UQA poll that just came out yesterday that shows Joe Biden's approval rating at 48%, his disapproval at 46%. Now, listen, maybe that's an outlier. Maybe it's an outlier like the poll last week was an outlier.

I'm just wondering if we're going to hear about this poll now going into the weekend with people weeping and crying or if we're going to hear about this poll now going into the weekend with people weeping and crying or whether Democrats are going to say, wait a second, you know what? This goes up. This goes down. Sometimes Biden's at 38. Two days later, he's at 43. One day later, he's at 48. I mean, this is going to be a close race nationally. But everything we're hearing about if Joe Biden wins by four percentage points, he's going to lose still the electoral college. No, no, no, no, no. National polls don't matter.

If you want to know who's going to win and just add in on this, Gene, go to the suburbs of Atlanta. Go to the suburbs of Philly. Like Trump ain't winning there. He's just not going to win there after performances like this. And again, maybe another Republican candidate will win easily there. Donald Trump will lose. Yeah, I absolutely agree. I don't see those suburban voters going for Donald Trump of the other night. Certainly hurt Trump among those voters, as opposed to helping him. As like I always say, God gave Democrats hands so they could ring them. And again, they're ringing the hands. And so over that one poll, you know, we were watching post poll is very good, but but every good pollster has an outlier from time to time. And that's starting to look like an outlier poll.

We also should understand that polls are snapshots, literal snapshots of a day or a few days in time. And, you know, things change. They tend to regress to the mean. And the averages say that, yes, yes, Joe Biden is very likely to beat Donald Trump. I think marginally more likely after the other night than less likely. We shall see. And we'll pick up this conversation in a bit. But we've got a busy morning ahead. Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas will be our guest this morning as Republicans ramp up criticism of the Biden administration amid the lifting of Title 42 just a few hours ago. A lot to talk with Secretary Mayorkas about. Plus, a 24-year-old Marine is expected to face charges today in the wake of a New York City subway chokehold death.

We'll get legal analysis of that case. Also this morning, a debt ceiling meeting between President Biden and congressional leaders is postponed. Well, the latest on where those talks stand this morning as the clock continues to tick. You're watching Morning Joe on a beautiful Friday morning. We'll come coming right back. Traffic will slow for the crash years. There's no other show like it round here. As a rule. Windows will roll for the crash years. There's no other show like it round here. The man seen on video putting Jordan Neely in a chokehold on a subway train will be charged today. Officials say Daniel Penny is expected to be arraigned in Manhattan on account of secondary manslaughter.

Penny says Neely was, quote, aggressively threatening passengers when he stepped in. Neely was a subway busker who had a history of mental illness. An onlooker recorded as Penny held Neely in a chokehold, he said, lasted about 15 minutes. Authorities have not commented on that allegation. And only about three minutes of the altercation was captured on video. Neely's death was ruled a homicide as a result of that chokehold. In a statement to NBC News, Penny's lawyers defended his actions on the subway, saying, quote, We're confident that once all the facts and circumstances surrounding this tragic incident are brought to bear, Mr. Penny will be fully absolved of any wrongdoing.

The incident has led to days of protests throughout the city as advocates call for Penny's arrest. Joining us now, MSNBC legal analyst Danny Savalos. So Danny, this is a big talker here in New York City, front page of the Daily News. Penny is a Marine who faces this charge now today. What's your sense of how this plays out? He says this man walked on the train, started threatening people,

said, I don't care if I live or die, and he felt like something bad was about to happen, and he put him in the chokehold that ultimately killed him. Yeah. Here are a couple of points I expect to see in the defense of this case. And I think they could be successful. I think you might see an acquittal here. I mean, first, in New York, when it comes to self-defense, the state has to disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. So really what that means is a defendant in New York is not only presumed innocent, they're also presumed justified when they use deadly force because the state has the burden to disprove it. In addition, the Marine here can be mistaken in his use of force as long as he actually perceived the threat. And this may be tricky for him. The

use of force was reasonable. There's always a reasonableness element. Part three, he's a Marine. That may not play the same in Manhattan the way it would say in Pensacola, but it's something. And that is something that I think a jury will, it will loom large in this case because he is someone who served his country. On the video, this is another point. You see other strangers, not friends of this defendant, but strangers helping out. If I'm on the defense, I call those people, everybody in that subway to say, why were you also assisting? Well, they probably, you can infer they also perceived some threat and thought some use of force was necessary. And then finally, and this is the biggest one for any New Yorker, the key here is going to be getting people on that jury who ride the subway.

I ride the subway. I've ridden it for years. I've seen it change over time, pre-pandemic, during the pandemic and now post-pandemic. And you probably will hear some version of this argument in closing. The D.A. here indicted Penny. They should have indicted themselves for the way the subways have deteriorated over the years. The time it took for police to respond to this meant that people riding the subway have to take matters into their own hands. I think that's probably some version of an argument you're going to hear in closing if this case makes it to trial. I think what you've heard from some New Yorkers, many New Yorkers, yes, they've maybe seen this scene play out in their own experience on the subway.

But why 15 minutes on the chokehold? Why did he have to take it to the point where it killed the man when he clearly was already subdued? Exactly right. And that is a weakness. That is a strength for the prosecution. It's going to be the reasonableness. They will have to disprove or essentially prove they have the burden to show that his use of that chokehold was unreasonable, given and the jury instructions say this, given what the defendant knew. And that's going to be key. Expect them to seize on that. This defendant, they will argue, knew as a Marine that his chokehold was a form of deadly force. He knew because of his training that what he was doing was the same as using a weapon. That's an argument they're going to make

because that's what it says in the jury instructions. And the jury instructions guide the entire case. They're going to have to make that argument to the jury. And believe me, they're going to point out, they're going to use use of force experts on both sides. You're going to see them on both sides. But the state will use them to say that this chokehold is something he was trained in and he knew that it was deadly.

Yeah, so Danny, it is so interesting. There are a couple of different things going on here that you've brought out that you say will make a big difference. One is the fact that strangers, as you said, were helping in the George Floyd case. Of course, people were telling the cops to stop, get up. In other cases, we've seen people saying you're killing him, you're killing him. In this case, you start with strangers helping. But there will be sort of a sliding scale, won't there? If he had held him in a chokehold for three or four minutes, it's far different than if they prove it was 15 minutes. Because again, that just, again, it's just excessive. Again, it all comes down to

what the jury ends up thinking. But talk about these two elements that you've already brought up and how important that's going to be to jury members who even jury members who say, man, you know, it's really, really bad in the subway system right now and have their own personal experiences. That that's not going to lead them to saying, yeah, but he could have held him for 15 minutes even after he was unresponsive. Yeah, exactly right. That's why the video here is going to be key. And we saw some of that just a minute ago. And you see him continuing to struggle. What's interesting is we see this kind of analysis a lot in police use of force cases. We look at different officers when, for example, you see a video of an officer, several officers jumping on one suspect. There's a use of force analysis there. And police are

trained, for example, they're not trained to say, oh, well, this has to be a fair fight. One officer against one suspect. They're trained to help out their brother and sister officers and all participate in subduing a suspect. So, again, key here is going to be every witness on that train, especially the people who assisted in subduing this person. If they say at minute 14 he was still posing a threat, he was still flailing, I don't know that that's reasonable based on what I'm seeing in the video. But if they testify to that under oath and they're strangers, they have no interest in helping out this defendant, that's going to make a big difference, even though at the outset,

15 minutes does seem like a long time. But you can imagine a scenario if someone poses a threat for that long. And by the way, if I'm defending this case, I dovetail that into an argument of where was the NYPD during this 15 minutes? What is going on in New York City that someone has to subdue a dangerous suspect or a dangerous person for 15 minutes without the help of the NYPD? That's the strategy I would use to use that to judo move that, take that strength and make it a weakness if I can. So, Danny, I mean, you're certainly right. This case has really resonated with New Yorkers. It speaks to the changes in the city and the subway coming out of the pandemic, the rise of seemingly very visible mental illness, as well as some crime. I mean, and everyone takes the subway, the F train. That's my local train. It goes here.

Yeah. It comes right here. It comes into this building. But so to the point that there are some people there who are trying to help there to subdue the assailant. But the video also, the expanded video shows here, there's at least one person yelling at him to stop because they look, the man that Neely is defecating, which is a sign of like, you're using too much force here. I assume that's going to be central to what the prosecution will do. Would that be used to counter some of the other arguments? So the way I would argue that as the defense is that just because there's some someone watching and videotaping and they have an opinion about the force, they're not as

well situated as somebody in the melee, involved in the wrestling, involved in the subduing process, who is actually involved and may be able to better perceive the threat. The mere comments from people taking video, I would argue, isn't as strong as people actually involved. And that's the key. It's going to be the other people in that video assisting with the subduing. If they testify, and the way I would walk them through testimony is, you don't have any relationship, prior relationship with this defendant. You don't have any interest in helping him. No, I was just a stranger on the subway. Well, then what did you perceive at minute 13, 14, and even 15. And if they say this guy was still a threat, he was clawing.

I don't know. Maybe they saw there's no indication there was any kind of weapon. But if they can articulate any kind of threat, then that is going to go a long way. And then you retreat to the point that the state has the burden here, not just any burden, but to disprove self-defense justification beyond a reasonable doubt, the highest burden that we have in the law. So Daniel Penny expected to be arraigned today in Manhattan Criminal Court today. He says he was acting in self-defense to protect the people on that train. We will hear from prosecutors that he acted with excessive force. MSNBC legal analyst Danny Savalas. Danny, thanks so much. Appreciate it. Coming up next, the must read opinion pages, including one from Gene titled What does the GOP have on Biden?

A whole lot of nothing. Gene explains when we come right back. Quid pro quo. What are whistleblowers and more bank documents now showing alleging bar bribery there and more? What do you say? What do you see? Well, again, that is a difficult thing to prove. I know the Republicans said that the smoking gun were these financial records that you were able to subpoena and got your hands on. They show that some of the president's relatives were paid more than $10 million from foreign sources between 2015 and 2017. And your party, the Republican investigators say that that's proof of influence peddling by Hunter and James. But that's just your suggestion. You don't actually have any facts to that point.

You've got some circumstantial evidence. And the other thing is, of all those names, the one person who didn't profit is there's no evidence that Joe Biden did anything illegally. Yeah, not at all. That's just a few moments from Fox News and also the Wall Street Journal editorial yesterday, the Biden family business. You know, we always hear Biden crime family, the Biden this, the Biden that. Wall Street Journal editorial page had the Biden family business. They went through how members of Joe Biden's family made money. This is all very shocking, I guess, to some people on on Fox News and some people on the Trump right. Because, of course, this is something that Donald Trump and his family would never do other than two, three billion dollars here or there.

But they did it out of office, just like the Bidens did this out of office. But again, talk about the scale of what they're talking about with what the scale of what happened there. This sounds like, of course, what happened with the Clintons and all the investigations into the Clinton, the Clinton Foundation. And we heard about that for years and years and years. And at the end of the day, all much ado about nothing. This is the end of the Wall Street Journal editorial page, which has gone after the Hunter Biden issue very strongly. They conclude by saying there is not a smoking gun here. But there's smoke. So keep investigating.

Come on. And and this this is this is so much like the Durham investigation. And I have people who are call me every day. Right. Well, call me every day. Call me on January the 7th. Oh, yeah. Well, you know, the that thing that happened at the Capitol yesterday was bad. But why won't the press talk about Hunter Biden's laptop? Tell me about it. Tell me about it. Tell me about what. Talk about the illegalities. And then you say to him, well, if Hunter did something wrong, he should go to jail. That's how America works. And when he goes to jail, you'll notice Democrats, they won't try to undermine

the American judicial system. They go, OK, well, if you can't do the time, then don't do the crime. But for some reason, there's a different standard with Republicans. For some reason, they yell, lock them up, lock everybody up, lock their political opponents up, except don't lock Donald Trump and his family up when what they do is significantly worse. But anyway, again, Wall Street Journal editorial page concludes in their Biden family business editorial, there is not a smoking gun. We heard Steve Doocy say the same thing. There's no smoking gun and nothing with Joe Biden here either. But again, they keep they keep generating this. Oh, yeah. One other thing, too, that's very important for these anti Biden people. I don't know if you knew this or not.

Joe Biden fell off a bike. He did. Now, Donald Trump tried to overthrow American democracy, but Joe Biden fell off a bike. And when Joe Biden's tired, sometimes, you know, he stuttered his entire life. Sometimes his words kind of get slurred together. He doesn't do really well. But Donald Trump, Donald Trump, he tried to overthrow American democracy and just got found guilty of sexually assaulting a woman and said in the deposition that people like him have had the right to do that for, quote, millions of years. So there you go, Gene. All of this nonsense from Durham, who just absolutely a guy that people used to respect, who just absolutely humiliated himself, trying to prove that the FBI was corrupt, ended up humiliating. Again, one more. We're going to

own the libs turning into a cell phone, a self-owned. This brings us, though, to your latest column. And you write this in part, the leading candidate for the 2024 GOP presidential nomination, Donald Trump facing felony charges in Manhattan, a civil verdict holding him responsible for sexual abuse and the possibility of soon being hit with more state and federal charges. Republicans would love to be able to tar Biden with at least an appearance of illegality. So far, however, Biden has had every right to perform the dirt off your shoulder gesture that Barack Obama borrowed from Jay-Z. The GOP has come up with a whole lot of nothing. We saw that on Fox News.

And again, Gene, we saw it in the Wall Street Journal editorial that has written extensively about Joe Biden, the Hunter Biden laptop. Even after this Comer investigation that was going to be so devastating to the Biden quote crime family. They say there's no smoking gun. Yeah, there's no smoking gun. And I don't know. There's absolutely no smoke anywhere near Joe Biden. There may be smoke near Hunter Biden. And if there is and if he's guilty of something, then he should face justice. But the central allegation of influence peddling, that they were essentially selling not just access to Biden when he was vice president, but the suggestion that he was taking some actions favorable to people who were giving money to other members of the family or who were employing other members of the family is completely— there is absolutely not a shred of evidence, as Fox & Friends pointed out.

If you've lost Fox and Friends, you've really got nothing. And because there's actually nothing there. We saw the Durham investigation, which was an embarrassment. This Comer investigation so far is a very deep embarrassment. They're going to keep digging this hole. First rule of holes is, you know, when you're in one, stop digging. But they're going to keep digging and and they're not going to really find anything because it's not the Biden crime family. It's Joe Biden has been a public servant for half a century. We've been watching him. We know him. We see him. You can criticize him on a lot of levels if you if you want to politically.

But this is just there's just nothing there. Jen, this idea of a Biden crime family like they're the Gambino's or something has certain resonance within a media bubble. That's why certain members of Congress and in the House in particular, they talk about it because they hear about it on podcasts and TV shows and from certain wings of their party. Was it something that you guys in the White House ever felt like you had to address? Did you ever feel like there was a problem there? Do you think we'll hear anything about it from this White House? I think if there's when there's a conclusion of the investigation into Hunter, they'll have to say something.

But I think what's important to remember here is to echo Gene. One, not just Comer, but Jim Jordan has oversees the subcommittee on the weaponization of government. He promised dozens of whistleblowers nothing. It's May, nothing. And on the Biden front, as a human being, and the president has spoken to this, Hunter had a very public, he wrote a book about it, struggle with drug addiction. By the way, something that millions of Americans and families have dealt with. He made some terrible choices. He outlines in detail in that book.

And as everybody here has said, if he broke the law and did something that warrants steps, then they are not going to stand in the way of that. But at the same time, there are things we know about this. He's been public about that. But at the same time, there are things we know about this. He's been public about that. He said he made mistakes and he was battling drug addiction for years, which I think is an important component of all of this, because the notion that it is like some nefarious, you know, crime Gambino family for 50 years is just ludicrous. And if there was something

to pop up, the Republicans and Comer and others would have found it by now. And it's May. Yeah. And there certainly is an expectation, Joe, and I've got new reporting on this, that a decision about whether Hunter Biden will be criminally charged probably coming in the next few weeks, couple of months. And the White House is preparing for this. There's no war room set up, but they know that it's going to be an issue one way or the other. Either the son of the president will be indicted or he won't. And if he's not, the Republicans are going to say the fix was in, the DOJ was biased. So they know this is going to be a headache, but they also feel like

it's one that they can manage. They point out, first of all, to Jen's point there, that Hunter Biden has been very forthcoming about his struggles with addiction. And frankly, a lot of Americans have a lot of sympathy to that because they have in their own family addiction. We've heard the voicemails that were meant to be a political attack on Joe Biden, the voicemails in which Biden talks about how much he loves his son and is worried about him, expresses care for him. And that resonates with a lot of Americans. And also, they do feel like they can point to the fact that Trump's family charges to have benefited from his presidency. Trump himself has already been indicted at least once more coming. And they also feel like much of this was already known to voters, Joe, in the 2020 election, and it didn't

bother them. And Joe Biden was still earned their vote. Well, I mean, he talked about and Donald Trump in his first debate with Joe Biden, if you'll remember, when he appeared to be in a roid rage, totally out of control. He was attacking Hunter Biden. And I remember even the most far right commentators saying it was a low blow and to stay away from from family members. Problems because you're right. You know, there's so many so many Americans. So have have family members, have children, have loved ones, have parents, have, you know, who've had addiction problems. So this, again, unless there is a smoking gun and The Wall Street Journal says there's not a smoking gun, Fox News says there's not a smoking gun. This this appears to be, again, continuing to be just this sort of obsession, this white whale for Trumpers in the media.

So before we go to break, I want to talk about the Irish and I want to talk about the British. Let's talk about the Irish first. Jonathan O'Meara, your Celtics holding on. Talk about it. Yeah, they didn't look good there for a while. Their best player, Jason Tatum, had probably the worst game of his career for about 44 minutes last night. But then he took over down the stretch.

We're seeing one of the several threes. He had four threes in the last four minutes of the game. Celtics were facing elimination, but they win on the road in Philadelphia in what has been a very up-and-down series, both teams having flashes of brilliance and then other moments of real struggle. And now we get a game seven game seven on Sunday. Celtics Sixers, a great, great rivalry. And they'll get the winner of that Heat Knicks series in the Eastern Conference finals. Yeah, Joe, that last night was setting up for Tatum to be an infamous performance where he went to for 15 or something like that.

They would have lost the series on the road. And he just decided that wasn't going to happen. He had three points going into the fourth quarter, scored 16 points in the fourth quarter, totally flipped the story. And now that's a devastating loss for the Sixers at home. They had a chance to move to the Eastern Conference Finals. Now they have to go back to Boston for a Game 7. Incredible performance down the stretch by Tatum. And hope is still alive for our New York Knicks.

They survived two nights ago. Tonight, they get another chance in game six down in Miami, a very beatable Miami team. You win tonight, you come back to Madison Square Garden for game seven where anything can happen. I know everyone at this table is really excited about the Knicks. That's up to you. Willie, as every Arsenal fan across the globe will tell you, it's the hope that kills you.

So lots of luck with the Knicks. Kenny K, speaking of the British, I'm sorry, I just got to ask you, I'm curious, you know, because there's always sort of this reflexive action to big events when it has to do with the Royals. I'm just curious, how how how how are things going? What are the tabloids saying? What's everybody saying? A week or so after the coronation about the king, Kamala, Prince Harry. How's how's all the drama sorting out there? Yeah, I've been surprised by actually how little drama there's been and how little chat there's been. It's like we had this big holiday weekend that everybody was so focused on with all of the pomp and circumstance.

There's been questions about the number of people who were arrested, the protesters who were arrested and whether police being overly heavy handed. I think that's something that people are focused on, that people should have had their right to protest against the monarchy on that day. And there were these arrests and should they have been arrested? So I think that's actually been most of the focus. A little talk about Harry. Harry has flown off to Montecito and we've said goodbye to him. And Prince Charles now gets on with the job. So a big uptick in anti-monarchy sentiment? No. A big uptick in pro-monarchy sentiment? No. I think it's now a question of

whether Charles can keep this royal family relevant in this century. Keep it steady. Mind the gap. Keep it steady. Mind the gap. Yeah, exactly. That was good, wasn't it? That was nice. Yes. Yes, exactly. So, so, Cady, one of the things that struck me during the Queen's funeral, I've talked about it. We talked about it again last week. People that went over saw this and they just came back. And it's really it's really crazy that we in the United States have always taken great pride of being the melting pot of the world and doing it supposedly without a whole lot of fuss about it. That's not the case anymore. Obviously, we're going through some cataclysmic changes, politically at least, to a vibrant, postmodern, diverse, multicultural country, especially city.

And when I walk around London, it just seems all so seamless. I'm wondering, what do you put that down to? What have Londoners gotten right? I'm not saying they haven't had problems. They have, but nothing like the United States. You look at who the prime minister is in Great Britain. You look at who the mayor is in London. You look at who the prime minister is in Ireland and it's all happened so seamlessly. I think that's certainly true. Look, it's certainly true of London. You could draw a distinction between London, a big cosmopolitan city, and some of the more rural areas of the United Kingdom, which tend to be less welcoming of foreigners, more exclusively white and British. But London, I agree with you,

Joe. I mean, it's astonishing how multicultural it feels. And here's a big difference that I noticed coming from Washington, D.C. There is far more integration between races in London, far more kind of seamless mixing. And the class distinctions that seem to exist in the United States in terms of poverty and race don't seem to exist as much in the UK. And you saw that in the coronation. I mean, there were many more women for a start taking part in it. But also there were very senior peers from different faiths and different races were given a prominent role in that coronation. So you can be you can be black in the mayor of London. You can be Indian and the prime minister of the United Kingdom. And I think that Indian English,

Anglo Indian. And I think that that's a big difference here with compared to the United States. Yes. So, Willie, let's go from what King Charles did last weekend to what you're doing this weekend. Jack, of course, is going to be very excited. We're going to make up our Swiss Miss chocolate cocoa. We're going to have chocolates. Jack will be in his Bavarian outfit. Oh, wow. And asking, yeah, exactly, asking what Uncle Willie's going to be doing this weekend.

So what do you have in store, not only for little Jack, who's now six foot four, not only for little Jack, but also for the rest of America? Well, while Jack's holding that big yellow Sunday mug and eating his strudel in his lederhosen, I have for him Academy Award winner Jessica Chastain is my guest coming up this weekend on Sunday Today. She is in a play right now. She was just nominated a couple of days ago for a Tony Award called The Doll's House. It's a revival. It's truly a stunning performance. It's on Broadway right now. We also, of course, talk about her Academy Award winning movie career and how she's kind of become an adopted New Yorker.

So coming up for Jack and the rest of the audience on Sunday today over on NBC this weekend, it is Jessica Chastain. And we'll be right back here on Morning Joe.