Morning Joe - Morning Joe 5/12/25

Episode Date: May 12, 2025

Mother's Day mayhem as ground stops issued at Newark and Atlanta airports

We have reached an agreement on a 90-day pause and substantially moved down the tariff levels. Both sides on the reciprocal tariffs will move their tariffs down 115%. U.S. Treasury Secretary Scott Besson earlier this morning in Switzerland announcing a major breakthrough in trade negotiations with China. That's one of several stories we're going to be following from overseas as President Trump gets ready to travel to the Middle East this week with a focus on securing more trade deals. Meanwhile, U.S. officials just wrapped up a fourth round of meetings with Iranian officials

seeking to reach an agreement on Tehran's nuclear program. And Ukrainian President Zelensky is challenging Russian President Putin to meet him personally in Turkey this week to discuss a peace deal. Plus, India and Pakistan, two nuclear powers on the brink on Friday are now accusing each other of violating a ceasefire agreement that President Trump announced over the weekend. Good morning and welcome and good morning, Joe. A lot going on. It's Monday, May the 12th.

With us, we have the co-host of our fourth hour, Jonathan LaMire. He's a contributing writer of The Atlantic, covering the White House and national politics. U.S. special correspondent for BBC News and a host of the rest is politics, Cady Kay. President Emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haas.

He's the author of the weekly newsletter, Home and Away, available in Substack. And columnist and associate editor for the Washington Post, David Ignatius. Great to have everybody with us. Katty, how was your mother's day? It was great. I had 75% attendance for my children. So three of the four kids were home. I know. Not bad, right? They cooked dinner. The boys cooked dinner in the garden. I felt very lucky to have my kids with me. You know, at our stage in life, Joe, where the kids are leaving home, three of them being back home for the weekend was as good a mother day as you could ever have.

So that was very nice. I gotta say, Jonathan O'Meara will not understand this with children underfoot. But if you have like, you know, Cady and I and Barnacle, we all have like 87 kids combined. But if you have, let's say, four kids, if you get two home, like, I mean, that's beyond like all star. I mean, that's Joe DiMaggio,

if you have two under the household roof at the same time. So, Cady had three out of four. I'm hoping, Johns, that since your kids are relatively young, you had them all with you on Mother's Day. Yeah, ages 13 and 10. So, they didn't really have a choice. They were there. We went to dinner last night, certainly celebrated her the way she deserved.

It was very nice. But I'm not looking to curse to me. Like I have my oldest will be in high school this fall. I was reminded of that again yet this morning and that I'm not ready for that. So I'm heading down the path towards towards you guys trying to get them to slow down. They're growing. Yeah. So I don't usually ask questions that I don't really know the answers to. So David Ignatius, I hope you had a wonderful mother.

And if you do not have a wonderful mother, tell us about your wife and what a wonderful mother she is. Tell us something about your mom that you'd like us to know. Bless her heart. Passed away six years ago she was a remarkable woman uh... and we go visit a little stone bench that the cathedral in washington dedicated to her uh... that's that's our visit to her on mother's day but

my wifey even our three daughters and my three grandchildren who were out for for mother's day and we had everything you want to have on mother's Day including everybody sulking and getting angry at everybody else for a little while. I said it wouldn't really be a family holiday, let's be honest, we didn't have a little of that. Of course not, exactly. And Richard Haas, just staying on this theme, why are the Giants so hapless here in Europe

with their draft picks? It's a sad story. Joe, in the spirit of Mother's Day. You can tell us about your mom if you'd like. We were two for two. and so hapless here in Europe with her draft picks. Just sad. Sure, in the spirit of motherhood. You can tell us about your mom if you'd like. We were two for two. We had 100% children representation. And one of them, our son, cooked a spectacular dinner.

Just spectacular. So yeah, that was as good as it gets. My mom was born about 104, 105 years, hundred, five years ago. She passed away maybe thirty years ago. It's sad she never really got to see the kids grow up, but she was one of those women of a different generation. And there was, you know, like a lot of us, there was pre-women's lib and it was just a different time for women in America. Yeah, yeah, you know, my mom was great, a perfect combination of telling me I could do anything that I wanted to do and then when I came up short, like getting on me really

hard and pushing me saying, do not embarrass yourself and the family, Joey. And then she'd go on to say, you can do anything you want to do. But anyway, it is crazy. And, Cady, I don't know if you're at the stage where you feel this yet, but I... You know, when my parents passed, it was so sad. And it was such a terrible, tough transition. I will say the further I get away from that moment

and that day, it is really true that, you know, when I think about them, a tear doesn't come to the eye, a smile comes to the face, and I just feel like I have them with me all the time. You know, I don't need to do an Instagram post. I feel my mom and my dad's presence with me every day. And you know, it's something really that I'm just I am glad for Hallmark creating these holidays I am glad it stops and makes you think about your mom and dad especially for those of us who enjoyed

them and and were so shaped by him but then they moved on because Katty I'm sure you feel your parents' presence every day as well. And you certainly did yesterday. Yeah. Yesterday morning, I put on the necklace that my grandfather gave my mother the day I was born and that she gave me on my 50th birthday.

And it's a beautiful silver Danish necklace. As I grew up, she was wearing it. And yesterday, I wore it, too, thinking of her of her so yeah she's with me all the time. Do you want to know who didn't have... That is wonderful. Who's that? Do you want to know who did not have a very good weekend? A very spectacular weekend? Everybody that was trying to find a New York and you know we suspect you had three of your four kids with you because they couldn't get out because I tried to get out yesterday to New York it did not happen a mess across the East Coast this really is getting this really is getting critical the first time we had a blackout at New

York and as they said oh it's old frayed coils well have we had a blackout at Newark, they said, oh, it's old frayed coils. Well, have we had old frayed coils two more times? I mean, it's a, it is, I have always been the person telling my friends and loved ones, flying, safest thing to do in the world, the numbers are extraordinary, please just relax, get on your flight. You know, it's still by far the safest, but, Katty, there's no doubt we have a crisis in our system and our air safety system. Yeah, we would think you might need an infrastructure week for this one.

Newark International Airport, by the way, guys, experienced another telecommunications outage yesterday. This marks the third incident in two weeks following a brief radar and radio blackout on April the 28th and a similar outage on Friday as well. Yesterday's equipment failure led to a 45 minute ground stop at Newark kicking off even more delays, even more cancellations. US airlines are now expected to meet with the FAA this week to discuss cutting flights in and out of the airport. Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy said yesterday that Newark will operate at reduced capacity for several weeks to avoid

further delays. In an interview on Meet the Press, he insisted flying is safe right now. The equipment that we use, much of it we can't buy parts for new. We have to go on eBay and buy parts if one part goes down. You're dealing with really old equipment. We're dealing with copper wires, not fiber, not high-speed fiber. And so this is concerning. Is it safe? Yes, we have redundancies, multiple redundancies in place to keep you safe when you fly.

But we should also recognize we're seeing stress on an old network. safe. Yes, we have redundancies, multiple redundancies in place to keep you safe when you fly. But we should also recognize we're seeing we're seeing stress on an old network, and it's time to fix it. I you know, John Lemire, I'm curious what the White House, how aggressive the White House this White House is going to be. This has been a crisis for 20 years, 25 years, as Steve Ratner pointed out last week, and Congress hasn't moved on it. Presidents throughout this century haven't moved on it. We have an old fraying decrepit system. It's something that we've been warned about for years by Steve Ratner. It's something we talked about COVID and post-COVID. And now it's upon us, the question is, will Congress get serious and fall, you know,

there's been so many infrastructure cuts through the years on the state, local level, especially, but do you get a sense that the Trump administration and Sean Duffy understand that they're going to finally have to do what other presidents and congresses haven't done over the past 25 years. I mean, this was not on their original to-do list, but it's rapidly climbing up the ranks of their priorities.

Let's recall, of course, when there was that accident at DCA at Washington National Airport back in January, the first couple days of President Trump's term. The reaction was even from the president himself and the White House briefer went to blame DEI, to blame hiring practices under the Biden administration, to basically point the finger elsewhere, what was a tragic accident. But that's what we've seen since is the number of these incidents increase that they've had to take it more seriously.

And we reached that tipping point this past week at Newark, where we've had these multiple stops, real concerns about aviation safety, passengers rattled. This is Newark, of course, one of the busiest airports in the country. And we've seen Secretary Duffy be deployed on a number of talk shows in the last couple of days, pledging the administration will take this on.

Now they've got a lot on their plate right now as we're going to go dive through all morning long with trade deals and the president's overseas trip and the like. But this is going to have to be part of the issue too, Caddy, because they understand as summer travel season approaches, if this continues to not only not get better, but potentially even get worse, it's going to bring cripple air travel, which is going to have not just impact potential passenger safety, but have a triple down effect for the economy, which of course President Trump cares so deeply about. So this is something we'll have to, with Congress, we'll have to see what sort of relationship

push they have with the Hill. But they are now in the last few days realizing, hey, this is something we've got to take on. Yeah. Newark, of course, United's hub. You can imagine there is a lot of pressure on the White House from United and the other airlines as well. Joining us now, Associate Professor of Air Traffic Management at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, Michael McCormick.

He is former vice president of the FAA Air Traffic Organization. Thank you so much for joining us, Mr. McCormick. How does America's airport infrastructure compare to other major economies airport infrastructure? Because my sense is I travel a lot around the world and I come back here and I feel like I'm coming into a crumbling airport system. Morning, Katie. Thanks for having me on. The airport infrastructure in the United States is complex.

It's by far the largest in the world. So as you can expect, it takes a lot of support, a lot of funding in order to maintain and modernize and upgrade the airport system in the United States. And what is different about the US versus other countries is that the US airport infrastructure is heavily funded by federal government through the airport improvement program, which those ticket taxes that you pay every time you fly, a portion of that goes to funding of that airport infrastructure. You've had stories a lot about air traffic controllers and the relatively low mandatory

retirement age. We heard Sean Duffy over the weekend saying that a bunch of air traffic controllers had actually left from Newark just in recent days because of the problems at Newark airport. So is this not just air traffic infrastructure problem, but also a personnel problem? And shouldn't that be relatively easy to fix? You're correct, Katie, that the staffing levels for air traffic control of the United States has reached a critical level. The United States is over 3,000 controllers short of where they need to be in terms of

their staffing. However, it's not an easy fix because the Federal Aviation Administration's Academy can only handle about 1,800 trainees per year. So you can see that there's a big gap between how many need to be hired and how many can be hired and trained. In addition to that, once through the academy, it takes one to five years to fully certify as a controller. So there isn't a quick fix. However, there are ways that in the short term,

there can be things done such as providing incentives for controllers to not retire, to stay within the system when they're eligible, but they haven't reached that mandatory age, 55 retirement age. Additionally, there can be incentives to bring controllers to facilities set up in perennially or to staff in terms of control by numbers.

This is David Ignatius from Washington. I wanted to ask how long it's going to be before this air traffic control problem, I want to say mess, begins to have real economic effects for the United States. Do you think we're nearing that point where we'll see a real difficulty in moving things from one place to another? I think we're seeing part of that today. And there is an axiom within the aviation industry, and that is, however New York goes, so goes the rest of the system. And we're seeing at Newark with the ground stops

and the significant ground lay programs that have led to delays upwards to four hours to try to get into Newark, is going to have an impact upon the New York region and in turn the rest of the country. Okay, Associate Professor at Air Traffic Management at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, Michael McCormack. I'm suddenly very glad that there is such a thing as an Associate Professor of Air Traffic Management.

Yes, indeed. No, and I'm glad you're there with us. Thank you so much for joining us. I mean, we're going to, Michael's going to be back, clearly, on the show regularly coming up. Yes, no doubt. Very much so. Still ahead on Morning Joe, Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelensky challenges Vladimir Putin to meet in person for peace talks.

We're going to have the latest on those negotiations to end that war. Plus, Hamas says it will release the last known living American Israeli hostage in Gaza, what it could mean for ceasefire efforts. We're back in just 90 seconds. Hey, welcome back to Morning Joe. Caddy, quite a busy weekend for the White House on foreign policy issues. Of course, on Friday, we were talking about the deal between the United States and the UK.

A lot of people tried to sort of brush that aside. I actually said on Friday, I thought that was going to be significant and it was sort of a hat tip to the other countries that the White House was open for business. They were willing to make deals. And then of course we saw that with China, but also we woke up to the news Saturday morning,

actually good news, that there had been at least a ceasefire, not peace, but a ceasefire brokered between two nuclear powers, India and Pakistan, President Trump making that announcement on Saturday morning. There's still skirmishes there, but that remains and has ever since Pakistan went nuclear as well, that remains a hot spot on the global stage that a lot of Americans don't really focus on and maybe we in the press don't focus on enough.

Yeah, and look, here is the United States back in its familiar role that the rest of the world has always looked to since the Second World War, playing that role of negotiator and mediator in chief, even though we know this is an administration that would like to have more of a pullback for the U.S. in those roles. But it's true, David.

I mean, you look at everything that happened over the course of the weekend. You had the China-U.S. talks over tariffs. You had the India talks. You had the U.K. deal. You had the news coming out of the Middle East that the last remaining American Israeli hostage would be released who's still alive. A lot happening over the course of the weekend. When you look at all of that, David, what strikes you as most important? What should we be focusing on? The first thing is for an administration that talked about

pulling back from the world, they're in pretty deep and and thank goodness. I'm one who believes that American leadership in the world matters in precisely moments like this, when you have a nuclear flare-up between India and Pakistan that could escalate into a real catastrophe. Who's going to intervene to negotiate that? It turns out, in this case, as in the past, the United States, and from everything I can see, the White House, Secretary Rubio did a pretty good job of calming things down. They were really getting to the flashpoint.

We see— So normal service resumed? Between India and Pakistan? Between the U.S. in terms of its role as the global mediator. Here's what I say as I look at this amazing agenda of negotiations that are going on. First, I see the ambition that Donald Trump has to be a peacemaker. We like to joke about how he wants to win the Nobel Prize, and if he doesn't win it

in Ukraine, well, he's going to go over to Iran. But there is something to that. He has this big ambition that the United States will play a decisive role. And second, we see the extraordinary chaos of his efforts because this really is kind of a one-man show. He's got different envoys. On Ukraine, for example, his envoy to Ukraine, General Keith Kellogg, and his envoy to Russia,

Steve Wittkopf, were saying basically different things. Kellogg didn't seem to know that Trump had tweeted basically agreement with Vladimir Putin's Insistence that would the meetings be held in Saudi Arabia without a prior ceasefire. Kellogg was still saying What have been the US European line gotta have a ceasefire first But in some I would say to viewers of this program In sum, I would say to viewers of this program, the efforts that Trump is making, generally are positive. We'll see this week whether the Ukraine negotiations can actually move forward, as Trump said in

his tweet yesterday. We'll see better when they meet on Thursday if Russia's serious. And if it isn't, then we'll take appropriate steps. So finally, we should say something about China. That's the biggest trading relationship in the world. It looked like it was going right in the trash bin and the agreement that was announced by our Treasury Secretary to cut tariffs back to 10%. One measure is that at the last I looked this morning that S&P 500 futures were up about 3%. That's a big

gain and that says for financial markets, few. We're glad that this is not heading to further catastrophe. Yeah, the markets have always sort of anticipated that eventually Trump would blink. This trade war would go to the side. We're probably going to see a big day on Wall Street, but we'll set that aside for the moment. Richard, as David just went through, a lot on the foreign policy docket. But let's focus for the moment on the Middle East. The president leaves later today for Saudi Arabia.

He's got two other stops in the Gulf while there. As I wrote about, you're previewing the trip. Certainly, there are geopolitical concerns. We saw Hamas release that hostage, as just noted. There's still no progress there on a ceasefire, at least not yet, which is why Trump is not stopping in Israel while there. The business deals are going to be his primary focus while over there. What should we be looking out for for this first planned consequential trip of the Trump

term? Well, in some ways, Jonathan, it symbolizes Donald Trump's approach to foreign policy. It's almost, how would I put it, the business of American foreign policy is business. It's not geopolitics. It's not quite honestly peacemaking and all that. It is business and what we're looking to be looking for are investment deals and so forth coming out of Saudi Arabia, coming out of the United Arab Emirates. I expect we'll talk about the airplane coming out of Qatar and so forth.

I think that's the big thing. That said, he can't avoid diplomacy. It's interesting. He has proposed against Israeli preferences that the United States and Iran reach a negotiated agreement on Iran's nuclear program. Well, guess who supports that? All the countries he's going to. Why?

If there's a military confrontation with Iran, Iranian retaliation would first and foremost probably come against them. So my hunch is he will get some support for what he wants there. military confrontation with Iran, Iranian retaliation would first and foremost probably come against them. So my hunch is he will get some support for what he wants there. What he's not going to get is Saudi forthcomingness to normalize relations with Israel. Why? Palestinian issue, what Israelis have done in Gaza.

There was initially some understanding in the Arab world about what they were doing against Hamas But now that you've had what 40 50 thousand Palestinians killed in Gaza simply the politics even for an authoritarian country like Saudi Arabia do not allow Them to normalize relations with Israel. So there'll be some some geopolitics some diplomacy But you're basically 100% right the the focus here will be on business deals, and again, totally in keeping with Donald Trump's approach to the world. Well, and David Ignatius, let's take a step back and look. You talked about the extraordinary range of things that are happening right now from China to Iran.

Just go down the list. And I will say on tariffs, I mean, I got reporting this weekend that Donald Trump is still all in on tariffs. But you know, this is part of the negotiation process. This is what he expected to happen. And he's, you know, Japan, South Korea, going to be a little tougher. But they firmly believe, the Trump White House firmly believes, because Donald Trump firmly believes that if you take a tough position, the other side will eventually come to you. And they believe that's exactly what's happening right now.

This is not about blinking. This is about what they planned all along. Start tariffs at 140%, you know, suddenly you get it down to 80% and people are celebrating and the markets are relieved, you get it down to 10, 20, 30%, suddenly it's a victory and your tariff levels are still 10% higher than when everybody started,

but the markets absorb it and actually you gain praise for it. So, you know, Joe, we'll see how this settles out. For me, what I've been watching is Donald Trump having a series of reality checks. He had a vision of a fundamentally different international trading system, and he's been forced, I think, to back away from that.

So we're gonna have a trading system that resembles pretty much what we've known. There'll be some higher tariffs, but the idea that we would decouple from China, which some people talked about for a while in the early phases of this, just proved too dangerous to Trump. The reaction from the financial markets was a strong no. early phases of this just proved too dangerous to Trump.

The reaction from the financial markets was a strong no, thou shalt not. And when the financial markets really get unhappy, presidents pay attention. So I think this reality check phenomenon has been evident in his dealings with China, in his dealings with Ukraine and Europe, realizing that Europe has power, Europe can push back. But I do think that we're seeing a learning administration that started off, I think, completely chaotic. And in some ways, the best use of power, most precisely and urgently, was the negotiations

with India and Pakistan. That was really dangerous. And they got involved in the right moment, and they seemed to ratchet it back before it got even more dangerous. I mean, this could lead to a nuclear war. And you need an American president, American White House, that gets involved. And they did that pretty well. As Richard mentioned on another topic, the Trump administration is preparing to accept

a super luxury Boeing jumbo jet from the royal family of Qatar as a gift to be used as the new Air Force One. Four sources familiar with the planning tell NBC News. According to one of the sources, the arrangement will be done according to U.S. and international laws in observance of ethics rules. Ownership of the claim will then be transferred to the Trump Presidential Library Foundation once his second term ends, two of the sources confirmed. Trump confirmed the gift on social media yesterday while criticizing Democratic lawmakers who say it's another example of him using the presidency

to enrich himself. So, Richard, first of all, how unusual would this be? How much of a potential conflict of interest is there? And the reporting that this goes to the presidential library, would that then mean actually to Donald Trump to be able to fly as much as he wanted, wherever he wanted? Unusual is a good example of British understatement, Fatih, and I want to thank you for it. It is beyond unusual.

Look, this would be a massive gift. This is from Qatar to the United States. In the short run, there's questions of security. The idea that Air Force One would be coming from another country and all the considerations that go into it. This is not, shall we say, simply a normal airplane. It is configured in all sorts of ways for what it can defend against and what it's able to carry out when it's up in the air.

And then, yes, it would be transferred in what, several years to the presidential foundation, which would then this would become an aircraft there for the personal use for then the former president of the United States. And the idea that it's not inconsistent with US law, as the attorney general and one of the lawyers seem to have said, because the quid pro quo is not explicit. That doesn't pass the seriousness test, because obviously, this would mean that the government transferring the plane would get certain considerations, or we couldn't be sure that they didn't.

So it's hard to imagine that people would not be, let me put it that way, would not be uncomfortable with this. And just as an aside, 10 seconds, we began the show with talking about Newark. Well, what is wrong with Boeing? The idea that this is even on the agenda, that you have a company, one of the major companies in the United States that can produce a functioning

Air Force One on time and remotely in the zip code of the budget. The fact that this is even contemplated, seems to me, something seriously wrong. Yeah, I mean, certainly no doubt that delays with the new Air Force One. Frustrating to a lot of presidents of either party. But yeah, Joe, I mean, to Richard's point here

a moment ago about this uncertainty, even if there's no explicit quid pro quo, the fact that we even have to ask those questions in the years to come are exactly why this sort of thing has always been prohibited. So therefore, a president, there wouldn't be concern about undue influence and the like. And I know we play the game a lot of like,

what would it be like under another administration? But we just had four years hearing about the quote Biden crime family and Hunter Biden, allegedly in efforts to enrich themselves. And now we have this aircraft being gifted to the president for his personal use, both before and after his time in office. I mean, I suspect we're gonna hear a lot

from Democrats in the days ahead about this to them anyway appears on toward. So, and David Ignatius, I just wanna go to you on another issue that Richard brought up, which was actually the first thing that came to mind to me. Obviously, there are gonna be the ethical thing that came to mind to me. Obviously, there are going to be the ethical concerns that Congress is going to talk about. But, well, first of all, an American company

not being able to deliver Air Force One in a way that is on time and that meets the specs in a way that the presidents want them to. But number two, I'm just curious about the security concerns. Again, letting another country build Air Force One for our American president to fly around on, I would think that would make most people in the national security community deeply unsettled.

Yeah, like having a stomach ache or want to throw up. They're charged with making sure that this space in which the president and his closest advisors discuss the most sensitive issues of policy is secure. How you would do that with a plane provided entirely by another country where surveillance devices, systems, new technologies we may not even be aware of could be embedded in the plane, you'd have to take the darn thing apart and put it back together before you really felt secure about it. So that's a whole other category of problems. I just think back to recent years.

If an American official traveled abroad and was given a ceremonial sword or a leather bound notebook, he'd have to declare it and give it to somebody at the State Department and probably never see it again. And here's a president who's going to take a 747 from another country. You kidding me? It's just, it's so, it's so completely different from anything we've ever seen. So this, yeah, the security problems are, are, are significant, but the, oh my gosh, how could this be happening?

That's really what, what it hits me. Yeah. My polymer office was telling me about how he got given a $200 watch and he had to return it. This is a little different scale. So it's a plane that may come with added benefits for the Qataris as well. David Ignatius, thank you very much for coming in this morning. MSNBC contributor Pablo Torre joins us with a look at the NBA playoffs and an update on Bill Belichick's girlfriend and her access to the UNC football program. Lots of mysteries

there. Morning Joe, we'll be right back. Final three seconds of the half. Niesmith gets a clean look. And he hits it right back. That was Aaron Niesmith beating the buzzer at the break given the Indiana Pacers an NBA playoff record tying 41 point halftime lead over the top seeded Cleveland Cavaliers last night. Rebounding from Friday's 22 point loss at home the Pacers pushed the Cavs to the brink of elimination with a 129 to 104 victory in game four. The game was not as close as that score. This was a rout. Indiana will now try to close out the series tomorrow night in Cleveland. Out west, Shay Gilgis Alexander helped the Oklahoma City Thunder get even against the Denver Nuggets last

night, leading OKC with 25 points on way to a 92 to 87 road win. SGA was good down the stretch, and the series shifts back to Oklahoma City for game five tomorrow night. 20th now, the host, the Pablo Torre, finds out on Metal Arch Media MSNBC contributor, Pablo Torre. Pablo, good to see you this morning.

So lots to cover with you. Let's start with the NBA. The Cavaliers were a 60-plus win team, a bunch of all-stars. Donovan Mitchell, heroic in game three. And now he goes out with an injury. They get crushed, and they're a loss away from elimination. Yeah, so this postseason, this is sort of a microcosm for what we're seeing largely, which is that there has never been more of a difference

between the regular season and the playoffs than this specific postseason. And we always know it's a war of attrition, right? Injuries matter, that depth is less important. Even if you have all the guys on the bench. For me, the thing to monitor here is simply that there is a difference when it comes to a great regular season team and a really good contender and the Cavs are not

that John the Cavs are not that and I wonder how you feel by the way are we getting to the Celtics yet? Can I can I begin to prom and talk about that? No, I'll get you there. I do because I mean I actually thought we were going to see after game th 3s with Cleveland crushing Indiana and then let's just face it, the Knicks being humiliated at home by the Celtics.

I was certain we were going to see both Cleveland and Boston sweep the next three games and close it out. Didn't happen with Cleveland, that really is. I mean, just shocking. But I mean, I'm just wondering Pablo, do you as a Knicks fan, do you really think that the Knicks can keep up with the Celtics when again, Celtics lost the first two games

playing the worst games offensively they played in two years? So even if they just play kind of an average game, you're gonna have your heart broken in the end, aren't you? Yeah, I gotta clarify my Nick's fandom because I am a Nick fan the way I am a Catholic, which is to say I am burdened by a lifetime of guilt, trauma, and I'm a buffet style sort of a person when it comes to the precepts that I embrace. But I felt it, Joe. Look, for those who slept through the first two games of the series, I went back to church, right? Two 20-point leads by the Celtics blown.

The Knicks are clutch. Jaylen Brunson looks like Clyde Frazier, but in 2025. And the question when it comes to how John feels about this as the Knicks get to Madison Square Garden and lose decisively because the Celtics shoot 50% from three is how much of this is mere regression to the mean because the NBA playoffs uniquely uniquely in sports are three months long and their seven game series and Actually, the best team gets to take as many shots as they want until they start hitting them. First to your original point, what we're seeing here is there's no good argument that the NBA regular season matters. It doesn't. It's really embarrassing, absolutely. And that's really a problem for the sport going forward.

But as far as the Celtics go, I mean, it's frustration. Obviously, I'm very pleased that they won Saturday. They won. Convincingly, it was a statement. But had they played even 1% better in either games one or two, they're up two games to one, this series feels very different. And Richard, I will say, look, this is not over yet. It's game four, tonight at Massacre Garden, yes, the Knicks regressed to their mean, and

you could see it in the fans. That was the hottest Knicks ticket since 1999. Most expensive. Oh my God. Yeah, on Saturday. Yes. And people were leaving early because it was obviously a route. So that said, if the Knicks steal tonight

and it's three games to one, is the series over? No, but you have to like their chances. But I just think that I would like to think that the Celtics on Saturday, they realize, hey, we got to keep our foot on the gas, go to the basket, don't settle for threes, and just, you're the better team, play like it. They're the better team and the Knicks need good games from every one of their players.

Knicks have no margin for error and when you have people like Oja Ononobi not showing up for two games in a row, Mitchell Robinson, the most painful thing now in sports for those who didn't watch the last game is to watch Mitchell Robinson at the free throw line. It is like a professional golfer missing successive two foot putts one after the other. It's the yips. It's the yips. It is basketball yips. It was just painful. So the Knicks just have no cushion against the better Celtics team. They need to play at their best and the Celtics need to have an off night like those first two games, in which case the Knicks could win tonight. If they lose, then I think it's over with two

games in Boston. There's another thing about pain, Joe. There's another thing about pain. Carl Anthony Towns, you know, they do the thing in the playoffs like it's hockey, where they don't say actually what's wrong with them. Carl Anthony Towns is alluding to a broken something, and he's not admitting what it is, perhaps for self-preservation reasons. But it is disheartening when the psychological torment shifts to a guy like Mitchell Robinson at the line.

There's really nothing you can do to spin that one. No, no. You know, while a lot of people were watching some good baseball over the weekend, the Red Sox had a good Saturday and Sunday at least. Other people watching NBA, other people watching NBA, playoff games, yet another group of people have been watching beauty pageants in Maine. Tell us about it. Poor Jonathan LaMure.

Tell us about how Bill Belichick spent his weekend. Miss Maine, Joe, is an institution in this country that I know John Lemure is familiar with. The winner goes to Miss USA, and on the line this weekend was truly millions of eyeballs that would have then paid attention to the national competition if in fact 24-year-old Jordan Hudson,

the COO of Belichick Productions, the voice and typing fingers of the greatest coach in football history, the person at the center of a controversy that I have now become enmeshed in, entangled in, in a PR war with the University of North Carolina over whether she is banned from their building or not, if she were to win.

And I hesitate to report here that she was second runner-up. They did not send her ahead to the national competitions. She was second runner-up. But Bill Balachek was there right in front watching all of this happen and that I can say, having talked to people around his family over the weekend, him showing up amid all of this to Miss Maine at that Holiday Inn in Portland, Maine, which is where it's held as we all know, was a sign that maybe this is a long summer ahead

for a now very, very, very dysfunctional college football program. Well, Katty, I guess we just have to note though, the credibility, the convictions of these judges in Maine, who not only, to Pablo's point, you have sacrificed millions of viewers for the pageant if she were to win. But also, let's remember, Bill, this was in Maine.

Bill Belichick is a god in New England. He delivered them six Super Bowls. He's in the room. And yet, they still stuck to their guns and gave her third place. They're tough those main judges they will not be swayed. They're not like the old German hockey judges. Rule of law in America. Still there in the main pageants.

Okay, still ahead member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut will join us to discuss the president's upcoming trip to the Middle East this week and the efforts to strike a ceasefire deal between Russia and Ukraine. Morning Joe will be right back. In a moment, we're going to be joined by Treasury Secretary Scott Besson following this morning's big trade announcement with China. But first, we bring to you our own global trade negotiator, NBC Sports Soccer Analyst Roger Bennett.

He's a founder and the CEO of the Men & Blazers Media Network, America's largest dedicated soccer media company, and again, our key Morning Joe global trade negotiator. And we thank you, Roger, first for keeping tariffs on Morning Joe products across the globe at a 5% low. We're very thankful for that. But let's talk instead of trade for now. Let's talk Premier League and just a couple of things stand out. One, Arsenal's not still really out of the woods yet and two, can you believe it, Forest. They're going to Europe next year. That's pretty incredible. Good Lord, there is joy in football when there is darkness almost

everywhere else. That is the love of it all. And this one I'm about to show you, it's almost as exciting as Miss Made. Let's look at yesterday's action. The top two collided. Boston Red Sox owned Liverpool, facing LA Rams owned Arsenal. Poor Arsenal. Could have been a title decider, but the title has already been decided. Liverpool becoming champions already. Arsenal bridesmaids again. Bridesmaids who can never catch the bouquet toss. Their agony levels known only to Sisyphus and it began 87 first half seconds. Two goals for Liverpool. First Cody Gapo like a Dutch Kyle Schwaber. Then in the blink of an eye Lewis Diaz tapping home and suddenly Arsenal sadder than the prospect of Sesame Street without poor Elmo straight after half time. Oh, it did go a little bit, are you

there? God, it's me, Margaret. Happiness, Arsenal fans, you can have it too. Martinelli found a gap as big as the one between Belichick and Jordan Hudson. Heading home, gave them hope. 23 minutes later, Urda Gard followed Joe Mazzullo's advice to tap into your darkness and Mikel Marina stooped to conquer 2-2. Arsenal draw the battle but lose the war. Joe, two more games until your Liverpool lift the trophy. Joy for the second time in five years

for John Henry and Tom Werner, your American owners, FSG. This is the biggest game of the weekend. LA Dodgers owner Todd Burley's Chelsea went north of the wall to Newcastle, owned by the investment arm of Saudi Arabia. Football is just geopolitics, a game played with heavy armor and inside two minutes, Newcastle took the lead.

The very, very handsome glistening Sandro Tenali bouncing the ball home like an NBA player calling glass and then Newcastle put the game away. Look at this, Bruno Guimares channeling Michael Scott, channeling Wayne Gretzky. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. This, this sounds like a cold town like Gary, West Virginia. They are one way away from the Champions League, football big time. More large tattooed stomachs per acre than anywhere else on earth in that crowd than it is, utterly beautiful.

Quick one, Notty and Forrest who you mentioned Joe, trying to close out on a season of fairy tales. Last minute against a rival, Buono Notte hand jive through a goal that could cost Notti and Forest a hundred million dollars if they don't qualify for the Champions League and right afterwards their Greek owner Evangelinus Marinakis the giant man who looks a bit like the Athens version of Bluto from Popeye ran onto the field there There he is. He's like, I don't know how you say George Steinbrenner in Greek, Joe, but that is the man.

If you can lose your head when all about you keeping theirs and blaming it on you or whatever that quote is, Joe. But as they say in Liverpool for your title, Masltoff, mate, I'm happy for you. Well, thank you. Kipling would be very displeased with the forest owner for not keeping his head about him while all others lost theirs. Yeah, no, I've got to say it with Liverpool, it was an interesting run. It was really a war of attrition. You had City who underperformed this year, Arsenal, who has been underperforming the second half of the season for the last three years.

It's fascinating. A lot of good teams had down seasons. Liverpool, of course, though, pretty good year. We'll take the title. You know, happiness is yours, and the joy of that fan base, your fan base, when they lift the trophy. I mean, it is. In Britain, it is in Britain, a lot of suffering, a lot of challenge, football bringing such joy, such global connectivity, even though I'm dead inside, Joe, I feel like the 2% of me that's still human, I wish you deep, deep meaning

and a complete congratulations. Big, big love. Now back to the tariffs. That is very, very kind coming from a man who says that 98% of his soul is in utter darkness. Thank you, Roger. And have a glorious day. MSNBC contributor, Pablo Torre, what say you?

Who are you looking to win the Champions League as we look past Liverpool already winning the Premier League? Oh, you know, I'm still focused on my Miss Maine coverage, Joe. I'm still focused on the second runner up. I got odds on next year's competition as well. And yes, I could say Tottenham. I could tell you about Saund, I could tell you about great, you know, fan base there, but hold on. Someone's whispering in my ear. PSG. You know what?

PSG. Hmm. Yeah. Let's go with PSG. Sources reliably close the situation. Tell me, Joe. Pablo, are you a Tottenham fan? Look, my brother Joe was radicalized over the pandemic into a Tottenham hotspur. He was. And so I get all of the osmosis fandom. I feel South Korea breathing down my neck. I do. And I respect the hair. Son has amazing hair. You know what? You know what Joey Scarborough calls Tottenham, and it's not meant as a compliment. The Auburn of Premier League football. Pablo Torre. Thank you so much. And coming up, we're going to be talking live with Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent about the administration's trade announcement

with China that is straight ahead when Morning Joe returns.