Morning Joe - Morning Joe 5/14/24

Episode Date: May 14, 2024

Today: Day 17 of Trump hush money criminal trial

Then we got to the porn stariness of it all. Remember, Trump's whole defense is, I never slept with Stormy Daniels, and I didn't pay her to be quiet. Michael Cohen paid her to be quiet because he's such a great guy who I hope is torn apart by wild dogs. And I only paid him when I thought were legal fees.

And if I did anything at all, I did everything I did, which I didn't do, to protect my wife from finding out the things I never did. Stephen Colbert last night will go through that consequential day in court yesterday in Donald Trump's criminal hush money trial with his former fixer and attorney, Michael Cohen, on the stand and will continue today. We'll have expert legal analysis on that testimony and what we should expect in just a few hours. Also ahead, we'll go through major developments in Gaza. Israel's military battling regrouped Hamas terrorists in the north while weighing a full scale assault on Rafah in the south. Plus, the latest from Ukraine

and the surprise visit today by U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken. This comes as Russian President Vladimir Putin is set to make a state visit to China later this week. Good morning. Welcome to Morning Joe. It is Tuesday, May 14th. With us, the host of way too early, White House Bureau Chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, U.S. Special Correspondent for BBC News,

Katty Kaye, and Pulitzer Prize winning columnist and associate editor of the Washington Post, Eugene Robinson. Good morning to you all. Joe, a very busy morning. I can tell you there's a lot to watch today in New York City, but mainly for a lot of us. It's a pivotal game at Madison Square Garden at eight o'clock. Yeah, there's there's no doubt about it. We could talk about a lot of a lot of news today. But for most New yorkers that are sports fans you included willie it's the knicks are as those of us outside of the greater

well tri-state area it's the great pumpkin because let me tell you yeah every spring new york knicks fans will tell you the great pumpkin rises from the pumpkin patch in the east and brings toys and goodies to all good boys and girls, only to wake up the next morning and have their hearts broken. I don't know. Maybe this year, Willie, it'll be different. Are you going to go tonight? I'm not going, but I will be locked in and borderline comatose tomorrow morning,

having stayed up late to watch the game. I will say, though, we've learned over the last, oh, I don't know, 51 years not to actually expect too much in the spring from our team, but this year has felt different because of Jalen Brunson, because of this team. But boy, two nights ago, they were

blown out of the building in Indiana, and what's worse, they're hurt, they look exhausted, they've hurt. They look exhausted. They've been through a long season undermanned. And let's see if they can dig deep. The crowd's going to be behind them. They have to win. They absolutely have to win tonight.

Don't want to go back to Indiana down 3-2. But you know what? This team has given us reason to believe all season. So I will continue to believe tonight in Jalen Brunson and those Nova boys. Let's see. You know, I'm not traditionally a New York sports fan other than Joe Namath's New York Jets. But you know, Gene, there is something undeniably cool about the Knicks or the Rangers doing well, doing well at the Knicks, especially at Madison Square Garden, because, you know, for those of us of a certain age, Madison Square Garden. I mean, that's where everything happened, whether you talk about the Knicks in the early 70s, whether you talk about the fight of the century, which, by the way, was build the fight of the century in 1971 and ended up being the fight of the century. Ollie. Yeah.

I mean, they actually build that right. Ollie Frazier. But man, when the if the Knicks could could play well in Madison Square Garden, how exciting that would be for all sports fans. Look, I will be rooting for the Knicks. I don't really have a dog in this fight. Right. I mean, I'm not usually a huge

Knicks fan or a huge Pacers fan, but boy, the Knicks, it's so great in the garden when they're playing well and Spike Lee is there and everybody, you know, the crowd is just crazy't i think it's it's unlike any other place it's a moment and um and tonight would be a real moment because the knicks are so beat up they i mean they're hardly any of them left uh you know can they can they i mean do they have 10 guys who they can put out on the court it's it's just amazing um and jalen brunson is just a superstar as far as I'm concerned. I hope they can do it. We need a Willis Reed moment. Can I just jump in? So I'm taking notes because I'm actually off to L.A. to interview Magic Johnson, as one does. And of course, as you know, yeah, seriously, that's why I won't be on the show on Thursday.

Anyway, look, you've just given me a whole lot to talk about. So this is great because, as you know, my starting level is like somewhere under the table here. So this is this is very helpful, guys. Thank you. One team, Knicks and I. Yeah, I got it. Yeah. Yeah. Just talk a lot about the Boston Celtics and you'll be fine when you talk to Magic. We have a lot to talk about in news today, Willie. I've got to say one thing really jumped out to me today. And it's it's so strange. You have all of these these people protesting in support of Hamas. There's a New

York Times story that show talks about just how oppressive it's secret files show Hamas spying on its people, but how oppressive and what total tyrants Hamas was when they ran Gaza. Again, something that you don't usually hear in the media. You certainly don't hear those college campus protests. How unpopular Hamas was inside of Gaza because they didn't broker any dissent. They followed people around.

They spied on their personal lives. And of course, as we all know, but nobody talks about, if if if there was any dissent at all, you'd end up with a bullet in the back of your head. If you're a Palestinian or pushed off the top of a building. This New York Times story begins to tell the truth about Hamas. But I must say, news coverage overall over the past six months has really been deplorable. They haven't pointed out what David French has pointed out, that Hamas and ISIS really the same. And the fact that American college students have gone out in support for a force that is the moral equivalent of ISIS shows just wax shows that Hillary Clinton's right.

So many of them had no idea who they were cheering on. Yeah, I mean, you don't have to wonder either what I mean, this is interesting reporting, but not surprising to most people who know anything about Hamas and the way they've run Gaza. Or if you just woke up to Hamas on October 7th and seen the videos, read the stories, heard the details, the horrifying accounts of what happened that day. That's pretty much all you need to know about Hamas. And in fact, what it has done to its own people is detail in the story. We're going to talk more about that in our next segment with Richard Engel reporting live from the region.

But we will begin this morning here in New York. Michael Cohen returning to the witness stand later this morning after testifying for more than six hours yesterday. NBC News senior legal correspondent Laura Jarrett has a recap of the day in court. A highly anticipated courtroom showdown. Prosecutor star witness Michael Cohen, former President Trump's self-described fixer, turned fierce critic, telling the jury Mr. Trump directed him to pay off an adult film actress days before the 2016 election to protect his campaign. Everything required Mr. Trump's sign off, Cohen told the jury, testifying Mr. Trump was furious in 2016 when he learned Stormy Daniels was still trying to sell her it resurfaced on the heels of the Access Hollywood tape. And Cohen feared if Daniels went public, it would be, quote, catastrophic for the campaign,

saying Mr. Trump told him, just take care of it. This is a disaster. Women are going to hate me. Guys may think this is cool, but this is going to be a disaster for the campaign. Cohen said Mr. Trump told him he met Daniels at a golf tournament, describing her as a beautiful woman. Mr. Trump has denied he had sex with Daniels and pleaded not guilty to charges of illegally disguising his reimbursement checks to Cohen as legal expenses on his internal books and records. The defense team arguing there was no crime, that Cohen was his personal attorney at the time,

handling a personal matter to avoid his family embarrassment. Former Trump aide Hope Hicks previously testifying, Mr. Trump did not want newspapers with details of a hush money payment to a different woman delivered to their home. But Cohen suggesting that Mr. Trump wasn't concerned about Melania's reaction. He wasn't thinking about Melania's reaction. He wasn't thinking about Melania. This was all about the campaign.

Cohen adding Mr. Trump told him, I want you to just push it out as long as you can. Just get past the election, because if I win, it will have no relevance. And if I lose, I don't even care. Cohen testifying that he told Mr. Trump he would pay Daniels as part of a non-disclosure agreement, opting to use money from a home equity line of credit. And Mr. Trump was appreciative, saying words to the effective, don't worry, you'll get the money back. The state trying to show that Daniels payoff wasn't isolated, but part of a pattern. Cohen admitting he secretly recorded his client while they discussed repaying the National Enquirer, which purchased the story of another woman who said she had sex with Mr.

Trump, which he denies. When it comes time for the financing, which will be... What financing? Well, I have to pay you. Prosecutors have presented no direct evidence Mr. Trump knew about or told anyone to falsify business records. So Cohen's credibility here, key. Telling jurors Mr. Trump never used email because too many people have gone down once prosecutors obtain their emails. Cohen now a disbarred attorney who has been convicted for lying under oath. The defense argues he's out for revenge after he didn't get a job in the White House. Cohen testifying he would have liked to have been considered for White House chief of

staff for his, quote, ego. There's no fraud here. There's no crime here. This is four weeks of keeping me from not campaigning. NBC's Laura Jarrett reporting there. Let's bring in former litigator and MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin. Lisa, good morning. It's good to see you. So Michael Cohen really in no uncertain terms explicitly describing how he says this went down directly ordered by Donald Trump to send the check for one hundred thirty thousand dollars. Quoting Donald Trump is saying just do it. Yes. Apologies to Nike. So what did we learn yesterday from Michael Cohen? Michael Cohen testified to a number of conversations, Willie, that he had privately with Donald Trump or with other participants,

sometimes with David Pecker, for example, other times with Allen Weisselberg. But again and again, Michael Cohen showed that when he said he made these payments in coordination with and at the direction of Donald Trump, he really meant it. You'll recall that yesterday I sat here with both of you and said, I'm interested to see how Michael Cohen flushes out that phrase at the direction of. Was that code? Meaning did Trump kind of wink, wink, nod, nod, please take care of this? Or was he explicit in asking Michael Cohen to make sure that Stormy Daniels got paid? And then also equally explicit in how they were going to account for that through paperwork.

Michael Cohen left that unambiguous yesterday. Donald Trump knew he intended for Michael Cohen to pay Stormy Daniels. He intended that Michael Cohen be not only repaid, but paid in a way that left Michael Cohen in good standing. A, with taxes and B, with a little extra for the bonus that he was stiffed at the end of 2016. And he knew the entire time that it would be papered over as legal expenses. Michael Cohen filled those gaps yesterday. And Michael Cohen made clear that this to Donald Trump, according to Michael Cohen's account, was about protecting his election hopes, that it wasn't about protecting his marriage. That was Michael Cohen's assessment anyway, saying this was all about the campaign. Push this past the campaign.

If I get elected, nobody cares anymore. How significant is that? Very significant, because you'll recall the defense wants to say this was about the family. The principal objective here, even if Donald Trump knew about it, principal objective was not for the campaign. There was no conspiracy here to promote Donald Trump's election through unlawful means. Michael Cohen sort of dismantling that. He said at one point he asked Trump, how's this going to go upstairs? Meaning when a story broke about Karen McDougal and Trump said back to him, don't worry about that. How long you think I'd be on the market for? Not long. So, you know, Trump basically also saying to Cohen, even if my wife is that upset by that, don't worry about that. I'll be taken care

of. I'll find another woman other than Melania. That's not a person who's principally concerned with the impact on their family. So Lisa, so much has been made of Michael Cohen's credibility issues. And rightly so. I mean, he lied to Congress. He spent time in prison. Just give us your assessment as to how did he do yesterday in terms of demeanor? There had been some worry also that he might lose his temper at some point, as he's been known to do. Both his demeanor and was he believable? Did he do what the prosecution wanted? I think he did. And he was, the best thing I can say about Michael Cohen yesterday is he was humble. He took responsibility for things that he hasn't taken responsibility for in the past, and he did so without being grudging about

it. Basically said, for example, he was repaid $50,000, John, when he was repaid for the Stormy Daniels payment, he also got a $50,000 payment for a vendor that Trump had stiffed. He had paid that vendor partially, but not totally. And yet he asked the Trump organization, give me all $50,000. What did he cop to yesterday on the stand? He pocketed the remainder of that. So Michael Cohen taking responsibility yesterday, not only for conduct we already knew about that's been charged, but all sorts of other conduct, including bullying and lying for the former president dozens and dozens of times, not being the best guy, and also copping to basically uncharged criminal conduct yesterday.

For example, lying in his statements to First Republic Bank when he was trying to open an LLC account, the vehicle through which he repaid Stormy Daniels. If he can keep that demeanor on cross-examination, maintain that same humility, I think his credibility will be better off than people think. At the same time, I watched your segment earlier this morning with Matt Lewis. We should not delude ourselves. Michael Cohen is not a hero. He is a person who has been complicit in some really bad things in the past. That doesn't mean he's not telling the truth now, but it also doesn't mean that he's an American patriot and hero.

And that, Katty K, is the foundation of the defense, which we may start to hear later today. We'll have some more direct examination at the beginning of the day and perhaps cross begins later today. But the foundation of the defense argument is this is not a credible witness. So discount everything you're hearing from it. Yeah. And that's what's going to be fascinating, right? So he was clearly prepped very carefully for the prosecution's questioning, and he performed well. He managed. This was not the bully that we've heard of. This is not as Hope Hicks described him, somebody who was kind of self-centered and uncharitable. He came across well. I think the question is going to be, Lisa, how do you do you get any inclination from how he performed yesterday about how he's going to hold up once he gets under cross when the pressure is going to be much more when they're going to try and push his buttons?

That's what cross examination does. That's their whole goal is to do that with Donald Trump sitting there. As a complete aside, I'm still sort of digesting all the things that Donald Trump said about. I won't be on the market for very long. Don't worry about me. That I don't know how that goes down with women in the jury. But Lisa, do you get a kind of sense of how he's going to hold up under cross? Katie, it's always impossible to say how much a witness gets rattled. And of course, I watched Michael Cohen's cross-examination in the civil fraud trial where he was incredibly rattled by Alina Ha, but particularly where it came to accusations that he has perjured himself in the past. Michael Cohen has maintained, for example, that while he lied to Congress,

he was not formally charged with perjury. He also maintains that he made those lies for Donald Trump's behest. If Michael Cohen doesn't insist on semantics today and continues to accept responsibility and even says things like, for example, my ego was hurt when I wasn't considered for chief of staff, but I knew I wasn't qualified for the job. If that's the Michael Cohen who shows up on cross, I think the prosecutors will be in better standing than people think. But again, we all know the Michael Cohen we've seen in the past who showed up on this network time and time again, and many others, the Michael Cohen of his podcast and his books. If that's the guy who appears at cross-examination,

that's going to be a different story for the prosecution. So let's see how Michael Cohen performs today. I will say yesterday was the most humble I've ever seen Michael Cohen, and I was pleasantly surprised to see him accept so much responsibility and even take, you know, take it all on the chin. Say that he loved the job that eventually turned out to be a massive disappointment to him. And that's an understatement. Well, an interesting note among many yesterday in Cohen's testimony is that he ascribed the infamous line locker room talk about the access Hollywood tape to Melania Trump. So that line was her idea. MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin. We will see you tomorrow morning. Thanks so much.

Still ahead on Morning Joe, the latest from the Middle East as troop movements suggest Israel soon could expand operations in Rafah despite international warnings. NBC's Richard Engel joins us from Jerusalem next on Morning Joe. We're back. States has seen troop movement that indicates Israel soon could expand its operation in the southern Gaza city of Rafah. That's according to two U.S. officials who say the IDF has amassed enough personnel on the edge of the city to go through with its plan. Meanwhile, Palestinians are following Israel's evacuation orders. The U.N. says nearly 450,000 people have fled Rafah just in the past week. More than one million people had sought refuge there over the last seven months. And in northern Gaza, Israeli troops are fighting Hamas terrorists in areas

that Israel had said it cleared. NBC News chief foreign correspondent Richard Engel reports from Jerusalem. Israel thought it had defeated Hamas in northern Gaza, but the militants have regrouped and are now fighting from the rubble. Once the government of Gaza had triggered a war when they stormed into Israel and carried out a massacre. Hamas has become an insurgency. And as the United States learned in Afghanistan and Iraq, insurgencies can last for decades. In southern Gaza, Israel is expanding military operations in Rafah, despite warnings from President Biden about the risk to civilians. Israel claims Hamas has four battalions of fighters in Rafah and has ordered the evacuation of large sections of the city.

HAMAZ, That's the sixth time I evacuate from anywhere I was in. So I feel so lost. JARED BOWEN, This time, Israel is telling Palestinians to go to an area on the Mediterranean coast. But Palestinians say there's nothing for them there. No tents, no food, no future. Are we going to keep living in this ongoing loop? Our crew found these men packing up pieces of their own bombed-out home

so they could build shelters with the debris, while Hamas fighters are nowhere to be seen. They brought this war to Gaza, but now provide no services and no help. They've gone underground, ready for a long insurgency, apparently at any cost. Hi, Richard. Thank you so much. Richard Engel joins us now. Thank you so much for being with us, Richard. Richard, I'd love for you, if you could provide some context, because we've seen the suffering of the Israeli people on October 7th. We've seen the suffering of the Gazan people since that time. And for good reason. There's been a lot of focus on the civilian casualties in Gaza. But it has at times papered over just the heinous nature of Hamas itself, not just as a terrorist organization,

but also as rulers of tyrants over the past 15 years. My word, not yours. But there's a New York Times article that talks about a sort of a Stasi, almost secret police where they brokered absolutely no dissent, complete authoritarians, and would actually follow young people, older people around, digging into the most personal parts of their lives and using it against them. It just and also that, as you know, at the time of the attacks, Hamas was not even popular among the majority of people in Gaza. So you have the Gazan people really no good guys for the Gazan people right now. Could you could you explain that to our viewers a little bit better following up on this New York Times article? Yes, absolutely. I've seen quite a bit of that myself.

Now it's impossible for foreign journalists to get into Gaza because Israel is not allowing access. But I used to go to Gaza regularly and Hamas was once elected. So at one stage, people did give them an opportunity because they were not comfortable with the previous Palestinian authority. They wanted change. So they did vote them in. But then Hamas took over in a violent coup, killed the opposition and were ruling through terror. Whenever I had encounters with Hamas or the Palestinians that I was working with Whenever I had encounters with Hamas or the Palestinians that I was working with in Gaza had encounters with Hamas, they were frightening experiences. You didn't want Hamas coming to your door and asking questions about you or asking

questions about your reports. You were afraid of them. The Palestinians I worked with wanted as little to do with Hamas as humanly possible. And yes, they kept track on people. They kept files on people and they ruled through fear. They barely provided services. They were the government, but mostly they were a military organization. They liked to talk about their weapons. They like to show off their weapons. They like to show off their fighters generally masked. And they left the basic running of Gaza to groups like the U.N. ground and they're just exclusively a militant organization that seems to be preparing for a long guerrilla war. There's so much talk about Yahya Sinwar. He's now kind of the Osama bin Laden. I saw him when I was in Gaza before. And I can tell you a little bit about what that experience was like. Yes. I was I was in Gaza covering some of the, there were clashes at the time. There were often clashes, not on the level of October 7th, but there was often mid to serious level fighting in

Gaza. And I was there, we were covering it, we were recording it. And then suddenly there was an excitement. People started noticing something was happening, something's happening. And I saw a long convoy of cars. Maybe there were 10 or 15 similar cars driving in a convoy to the area where we were. And people started saying, oh car and there was a crush and there was a he had a lot of security with him and people were pushing and shoving. And I ended up getting shoved more or less right in front of his face. And I try I asked him a few questions. He answered nothing particularly important. But what he said just about how the Palestinians are going to resist. And then he got back in his car and left. But it was the presence that I noticed that was so different. People were excited to see him, excited that he was making this appearance, but also very

much afraid. He was coming out with this huge convoy. It was an event. It wasn't like a normal politician where people come and they're happy to see them and glad handing babies and singing their praises. He arrived, the mood in the room or the mood, and we're actually in an open field, the mood in the field changed. There was certainly an era of a sense of menace while he was there. He had heavy security. I was sort of pushed and shoved as other people were. And then he got in a car and left. And that's kind of the way the Hamas leadership operated.

They would come, they would make an appearance, and then they would disappear. They didn't have a great, it seemed, affection for or from the people. Right. Let me ask you also, Richard, just following up on your report earlier, we've we've talked and you've talked to people in the region as if I that Arab leaders that have talked about the possibility of an Arab peacekeeping force backed by the United States and the United Nations in Gaza afterwards. Talk about how the reemergence of hostilities in northern Gaza obviously puts a big question mark over that for any Arab leader who suddenly realizes Israel hasn't conducted a cleanup operation of terrorists as much as they would like us to think, but

that actually they may be fighting if they get involved, they may be fighting an insurgency for years to come. Well, it seems very likely they would be fighting an insurgency for years and years to come. And the Biden administration keeps telling and President Biden, and we heard the same thing from the secretary of state, keeps telling Israel, don't make the same mistakes that we made in Iraq, in Afghanistan. Don't just have a policy of revenge. You need to have a long term plan. But then they say, OK, we're going to create this ambiguous Arab peacekeeping force. Don't know anything about it. Five countries were vaguely mentioned that they're going to govern there, I guess, as an occupation authority until there is a new Palestinian authority that is less corrupt and, I guess, less Hamas. That's exactly what the U.S. did in Iraq. That's exactly what the U.S. did in Afghanistan.

We had it. We called it a debathification process. We had an occupation force there. And then we tried to impose a new government that was cleaner and more to our liking. And it took a decade in Iraq. Didn't work, even though the U.S. won every single military battle. It won. It lost the war. And the same thing in Afghanistan. It took 20 years in that case where the U.S. won every single major battle and then lost the war. And the same thing in Afghanistan. It took 20 years in that case where the U.S. won every single major battle and then lost the war. So it seems that what the U.S. is talking about here for its long-term plan for Gaza is very similar to the same mistakes that the United States did, in fact, make in those countries, which is to impose and try and defeat an insurgency and then try and stand up some artificial government.

I haven't seen a clearer plan so far emerge for what comes next in Gaza. And the hints that we're hearing don't sound very convincing. Great perspective and reporting from NBC's Richard Engel live for us this morning in Jerusalem. Richard, thanks so much as always. And Gene, you asking your latest column for The Washington Post, how is any of this making Israel more secure? In it, you write, quote, Nature abhors a vacuum, which is what Israel is unwisely creating. On orders from Netanyahu and his war cabinet, the Israel Defense Force has eliminated the Hamas governing apparatus in the northern part of Gaza. But the IDF then moved on,

heading south without leaving any new system of authority in place. It was only a matter of time before the remnants of Hamas emerged to reimpose some semblance of order. Gene, let you flesh that argument out a little bit. Yeah, well, I do think a vacuum is being created. And, you know, I certainly understand why many Palestinians would be relieved to be out from under Hamas. At the same time, they're certainly not thrilled. They were not thrilled with the way that was done. And now they have no services. The U.N. can barely function to provide anything. There is a vacuum there. And it's being refilled, I think, by Hamas. We saw fighting break out, some pretty fierce fighting in which Israeli soldiers were killed over the weekend in northern Gaza,

the part of Gaza that Israel first went into, that first cleared. Remember, they went into the hospital and they they found the tunnels underneath, and all around there, the Jabaliya refugee camp, a little north of there, they cleared that area. But now there's new fighting there, because Hamas didn't disappear. It went to ground. And so, this insurgency war that we were talking about has begun. And the Israelis now have had to go back and sort of refight for territory that they had once already cleared. I don't see why we wouldn't expect the exact same thing to happen further south. And if they go into Rafah, again, I think that's where we're going to end up. We will end up. And I don't see how that makes Israel more secure in the long run, to have utter chaos on the border, with Hamas being essentially the armed force that's conducting

an insurgency and probably not staying on that side of the border. So, John, I mentioned NBC News has the reporting this morning that United States officials see troop movements that indicate to them that Israel will go into Rafah. That has been something of a red line for the president, says you can't just go smashing into Rafah. The question remains, does Prime Minister Netanyahu care at this point about what President Biden is threatening? I mean, Netanyahu has said time and again, they'll go in alone if they have to. As we know, the U.S. has, under the president's orders, has said we will not supply you offensive weapons for an all-out invasion of Rafah. They say they'll support targeted strikes. To this point,

the fighting we've seen on the outskirts of town has not crossed what the president says is his red line. And we should also underscore, this president has said that time and again, they will continue to send defensive weapons to Israel. It's really just about this operation in Rafah. But Netanyahu has consistently ignored often what the White House wants and how to conduct this war. So the U.S. officials I spoke to yesterday on this very matter say they can't tell if this is days. It's probably still weeks before a real full-on invasion goes in. But they acknowledge that timetable could shift. But they're also not sure totally what it will accomplish. And yesterday in public is what a lot of U.S. officials have been saying in private for some time. Deputy Secretary of State Kurt

Campbell, a top-rank ranking official at the State Department, spoke at a NATO event yesterday and simply says that the Biden administration does not believe that Israel's current strategy against Hamas will lead to, quote, total victory. There's simply no sense of what the threat of what the real sense of a win would be, in part because of what Gene described, really, and that Hamas will be able to reconstitute in some way, shape or form, even if it's more renegade, radicalized terrorists than a governing group. And Willie, to add to what Gene was saying, we've had this concern right from the very beginning that as Don Rumsfeld, I can't believe we're quoting Don Rumsfeld still, that, you know, you kill one person, you create 10 more terrorists. There are so many families now. And yes, there have been

debates recently about the actual numbers, but it is in the tens of thousands. There are so many families now, and yes, there have been debates recently about the actual numbers, but it is in the tens of thousands. There are so many families who have lost a father, a brother, a mother, a daughter, a son in Gaza, that what does that do for the next generation of Palestinians? And what does that do for the security of Israel? How does that make Israel more secure if they are living next to people who have lost so much and whose only motivation is going to be the destruction of the state of Israel? We saw that, and I appreciate that on October the 7th, what Hamas was doing. But the polls before October the 7th suggested there was not widespread support for Hamas in Gaza. You look even in Jordan now, there is much more support for Hamas.

Hamas has succeeded in galvanizing people just because of the level of destruction amongst the Palestinians. So purely from a national security point of view of Israel, I don't see how this has made a two-state solution more viable than it was because you have so many Palestinians who are driven by fury and grief and anger. And Katty is just, I mean, just hit the nail on the head, Willie. I mean, you, this is all, this was meant by Hamas to push Israel and the Palestinians further away from a two-state solution to stop the normalization of relations between Israel and yet another major Arab nation in the region, Saudi Arabia. And so you have extremists in Israel that oppose the two-state solution.

Now, the prime minister who opposes a two state solution. You, of course, have Hamas, who have always opposed a two state solution. And because of this very calculated terror attack on October 7th, that's what we have. I must also say, though, and it's it's so important for us to remember this. Netanyahu couldn't say he didn't see it coming. We had one expert after another expert after another expert saying, be careful how you respond to October 7th. And we're not being condescending. We're saying that because we made so many mistakes after September 11th. Netanyahu went in for whatever reasons and and and used the least targeted approach.

I won't say the least targeted approach. That's not quite fair. But he certainly didn't look over the horizon trying to keep things, keep things secure for the Israeli people before and after. Certainly knew he had to go in full force. And so what's happened? Well, he's got his wish. He's still in power. And Israel, Israelis don't want a two state solution. Palestinians don't want a two state solution. And as Katty said, we're further and further away from peace in the region now than ever before. Yeah. As you say, this was exactly the plan for Hamas, an attack so barbaric, so inhuman on October the 7th to provoke a response so forceful to cause that divide for people who want a two state solution and perhaps turn some people in the region against Israel. Meanwhile, the humanitarian effort to get those people, the refugees out of Rafah, now a place they fled over the last several months ahead of that invasion. That expected invasion by Israel continues this morning. More than a million people there. Meanwhile, some breaking news this morning. Secretary of State Antony Blinken is in Kiev today for a

previously unannounced trip to reaffirm America's support for Ukraine. This marks the first visit by a Biden administration official to the country since the president signed that long-awaited aid package passed by Congress last month. Secretary Blinken met with Ukrainian President Zelensky earlier this morning. Later, he will deliver remarks focusing on key strategic success in the war. But it all comes as Russia has made gains in the northeastern part of Ukraine. Nearly 6,000 Ukrainian civilians now have evacuated from Kharkiv, where President Zelensky has warned nearby villages are being turned into combat zones. Coming up with Donald Trump barred from publicly commenting on witness testimony in his criminal hush money trial. The former president is relying on his allies, his sycophants,

to do the talking for him. We'll show you the Republicans ramping up their attacks next on Morning Joe. Silence of the Lamb. Has anyone ever seen it? Oh, I love Silence of the Lamb. It's one of my favorite movies. Right up there with Star War, Dance with Wolf, and Jaws. dance with wolf and jaw but hannibal lecter congratulations the late great hannibal lecter late great in none of the stories does hannibal lecter die and sir anthony hopkins is very much still alive does trump just think a character dies when he turns off the TV? What is going on? What is going on? I'm no political expert, but maybe don't keep saying the late, great Hannibal Lecter. Why did he congratulate Hannibal Lecter? One of the best serial killers out there.

Oh, my gosh. I did. Fictional, too. Some of Donald Trump's allies joined him in New York yesterday for his criminal hush money trial outside of court. They said what the former president cannot say because of the gag order in the case. I'm here for the simple reason to show support for a friend. Luckily, the president's supporters should know that he's actually in great spirits despite the circumstances of this. I'm here today to represent and to pay my respects to what President Trump is going through. It's a tough time for him.

That courtroom is depressing. This is New York City, the icon of our country, and we got a courtroom that's the most depressing thing I've ever been in. Mental anguish is trying to be pushed on Republican candidate for the president of United States this year. That's all this is. Republican candidate for president of United States is going through mental anguish in a courtroom. That's very depressing, very depressing, very, very depressing. Both Senator J.D. Vance of Ohio, Senator Tommy Tuberville of Alabama said they were just there to support a friend.

But both then criticized Trump's former fixer, Michael Cohen. Vance also attacked the judge's daughter, repeating claims made by the former president. You know, Joe, courtrooms aren't supposed to be like Studio 54 and 79. They are a little drab. They are a little boring. They are, in fact, a little depressing. But also just the ongoing debasement of these men. I mean, he was the leader of young men for his whole life as a head football coach. J.D. Vance is a United States Marine, for God's sake, where it's all about honor. And you just watch them performatively outraged on behalf of the man, I guess, who they want to be the vice president or close to power or something. It's very sad. Yeah. You know, it's it's it's it's different stories for both of these

men. Tommy Tuberville wasn't exactly sure who fought in World War Two and what World War Two was fought for. But J.D. Vance, I mean, we could get the, get the clips. JD Vance, you know, was wearing his little Silicon Valley vest talking about, I like San Francisco, you know? And he was like, I like, I mean, he was the elite elite. He was the toast of the town. Oh, please tell us how poor white people live in Ohio. And he's like, well, yes, I will. Could you give me some more Chardonnay, please, love?

And he did that. He did that routine, made a lot of money doing that. And then he decided he wanted to run for Congress. But before he did, and I just have to remind people of this because nobody, nobody remembers this stuff. J.D. Vance said in 2016 that if you loved Jesus, you couldn't support Donald Trump. You say that like in 2002 in Silicon Valley or say buy, sell. Yeah. He said that in 2016. If you love Jesus, if you were a Christian, you cannot support Donald Trump. Now, furiously on the vice presidential treadmill, he has changed his mind and has decided that this is the most noble of men. And his porn star trial in a very, very depressing courtroom. And if so, if if Tommy Tuberville would like a list of really great interior decorators across Alabama, northwest

Florida, I could I could I could give him some people. I talked to my friends in Pensacola. Don say, hey, could you go fix up? Tommy Tubbell says it's depressing. It's just the stupidity of it all. And by the way, let us never forget. Jen, Paul, Mary, that we have Jen, Paul, Mary's here with us, that we have in Tommy Tubbell, a man who gutted America's military readiness for a year or tried to gut America's military readiness for for a year. And and generals, admirals, whether they were active or retired, were saying as much that that by holding up families, holding up officers from moving on to their next position was completely decimating the readiness for some people. So this guy giving anybody a lecture on morality and again, being obsessed with the interior decorating of a New York City courtroom, it's beyond bizarre.

And again, all I can say is it's just it's just about the vice presidential sweepstakes. Everybody wants to be vice president for Donnie. But it is sort of time. Well, first of all, it's just ridiculous how they're now turning the courtroom like it's a debate spin room. Right. It's like you got to bring your surrogates up there to do the post debate spin. But then with Tuberville, I thought it was sort of revealing that the only thing he could say about it was that it was depressing, right? That Trump is under moral anguish. By the way, Trump does not want us to think that he's under moral anguish. Trump wants us to think that he's fine with all of this and this isn't hurting him at all. So I don't know that Tuberville saying that he's under moral anguish and the price is depressing. And that's

just, you know, that's like that's making Trump a sad sack. That's like not what Trump that's not what Trump normally goes for. But he's also the guy with the IVF rolling happened in Alabama said that's good. We need more babies. So I don't know. This guy like goes too deep on what's actually happening. Eugene, you look at the to Joe's point about J.D. Vance. He called Donald Trump reprehensible. He said, I'm a proud never Trump guy in 2016. He called Donald Trump, quote, cultural heroine, meaning it might feel good for a minute, but it's going to kill you in the end talking about Donald Trump. And now he's standing outside that courtroom in some ways. It's a

brilliant move by Donald Trump. OK, I'm not going to violate the gag order, but I know I have these lemmings who will say whatever I tell them to say, let's parade them into New York City. Yeah, and he could fill that courtroom with as many of those vice presidential wannabes as he chooses to, right? Because I'm sure there'll be a steady parade of them as they try out for the role of standing by like a statue, they hope, if Donald Trump is president, and nodding sagely the way Mike Pence did for four years. J.D. Vance is a particular case, as Joe says. I mean, this is a guy who was Mr. sort of fleece vest, venture capital, you know, Peter Millar guy, right? That's who he was. He was kind of the Glenn Youngkin of old, except he was totally anti-Trump.

And he was a pretty good writer. And so he wrote Hillbilly Elegy, that that made him, you know, kind of a star. Oh, the poor white people. And and then and now he's just this completely different person, a completely different person, because that's what he sees as in his political and ultimately financial interest. It's disgusting. It really is. So, Caddy, to Willie's point, it is pretty smart to have these surrogates there at the courthouse deliver soundbites, looks like a show of Republican force and reinforcing in Trump's mind, this is a political prosecution, right? Here we are, my fellow Republicans standing

next to me, got my back here in deep blue New York City. But it certainly is also part of the VP stakes. I don't think Senator from Alabama is involved, but J.D. Vance certainly is. Doug Burgum, another surprising contender in recent days after that, I suppose, tour de force performance there in New Jersey. What's the latest you've heard as to that VP sweepstakes? Last I was told that Donald Trump is in no rush to make a decision. He loves the attention, seeing him as almost like Apprentice Part 2 or 3 or wherever we are. Yeah, only Donald Trump could make something as critical as a VP picks another reality TV show episode. I think one thing that I have heard is that the more people who say to Donald Trump,

you need a woman in order to get more women suburban voters, or you need somebody of color in order to pick more, get more women suburban voters, or you need somebody of color in order to get more black male voters, the more Donald Trump is likely to pick a white man. He is just, he wants to show that he can do it his way, that it's a bit contrarian. He quite likes Doug Bergen because he's not going to outshine him and he has lots of money. J.D. Vance, I think, is clearly being tested. He's being tested down in Mar-a-Lago. Whether it's possible for Donald Trump to trust J.D. Vance, given how much J.D. Vance has done, a kind of 180 in his political views on Donald Trump, let's see. But I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being a white man with lots of money.