Morning Joe - Morning Joe 5/15/23

Episode Date: May 15, 2023

Trump blasts the moms of political enemies on Mother’s Day

We must reject the culture of losing that has infected our party in recent years. The time for excuses is over. If we get distracted, if we focus the election on the past or on other side issues, then I think the Democrats are going to beat us again. And I think it'll be very difficult to recover from that defeat. Ron DeSantis taking a swipe at Donald Trump during a barnstorming trip to Iowa over the weekend. He comes after the former president canceled his campaign event in the state. We'll get to that and much more. But Jonathan Lemire, a culture of losing. It wasn't hard to figure out who that was directed at. No, no, it was not.

This has been the attack that the Republicans who are tired of Donald Trump are trying to make. And Joe, you have, I'd say once or twice, ticked off the years that Trump, a Trump-led Republican Party, has been defeated in the ballot box in recent cycles. And that's what DeSantis is trying to say, like, hey, I'm the guy who can get you what you like about Trump, but I've got a shot to win and he can't. Well, we have also some polls coming up. They're going to show just how much better Ron DeSantis does in swing states of Donald Trump. Also, I had Republicans' claims of corruption against President Biden's family take another big hit. First Durham,

now Comer. Who's next to embarrass himself as a House oversight chair admits that the party lost track of key witnesses. With us, we have president of the National Action Network and host of MSNBC's Politics Nation, Reverend Al Sharpton, member of the New York Times editorial board, Maura Gay, and the founder of the conservative website, The Bulwark, Charlie Sykes. And Charlie, there are a good number of polls that we're going to be showing in a little bit that actually show how Donald Trump doesn't swing states versus how Ron DeSantis doesn't swing states. And it's just like we've been saying, just like everybody here has been saying, it's not even close.

Trump gets trounced in these swing states. The question is, can Republicans help themselves? Yeah, that is exactly the question. I mean, you're seeing the rationale for the DeSantis campaign in all of those polls. But, you know, over the last week, we've seen how the Republican Party cannot help itself. It just can't quit Donald Trump. They can't push back. They're unwilling to push back on the Gene Carroll verdict. They're unwilling to take the steps that they need to take to to do anything about it. And could I just comment on Mother's Day for a moment, by the way? Happy Mother's Day to everyone. Happy Mother's Day to everybody relatedly. I hope that people look at the Mother's Day statement that Donald Trump put out to the nation and then ask yourself, how can Republicans look at that and go, yeah, let's spend the next two years defending this guy and let's put him back in the Oval Office? I mean, one of the things we've seen over the last week is a reminder, in case anybody has forgotten exactly who Donald Trump is, what he is going to be like and what he is going to demand of his fellow Republicans in terms of ignoring

his conduct or defending his conduct. Yeah. Do we have that, Alex? Do we have do we have actually what he wrote? Because this is again, this is the sort of thing that hypes up Twitter. I totally get it. Hypes up Twitter, makes people catastrophize. But all it does is it just loses more and more voters. If you were a swing voter, a suburban voter in the Atlanta suburbs and you read this Happy Mother's

Day to all, in particular to mother's wife's lovers of radical left fascists, Marxists and communists who were doing everything, whether their power to destroy and obliterate our once great country. Please make these complete lunatics and maniacs kinder, gentler, softer, more importantly, smarter so we can make it again. Not a parody. That is not a parody. And Maura, I'll tell you, I don't really get on.

I don't really get on. I don't really get on. I try not to get on too many social networks anymore. But I tell you, I went through I went through Instagram yesterday and there were so many loving tributes to so many mothers. And you just really learned a lot about people when when you read that. And I must say, and here's some President Biden, I must say we did learn an awful lot about Donald Trump. We already knew it. But again, the fact that he would he would write that on Mother's Day shows just again what a bitter disease solely is. But more importantly, that's just my opinion when you write something like that. But more importantly, again, for Republicans, a guy who will never win the general election. Well, it's it really it was such a bookend because you had his behavior at the town hall last week, which showed us he is the same exact guy.

So if you were hoping to see some muted, changed, evolved Donald Trump, that's not what we saw. He's not been chastened at all by January 6th, by the lawsuits, by the prosecutions, by the indictments, by the Jean Carroll case, by reality. And then the Mother's Day statement, which was particularly unhinged. But, you know, also, I mean, this is the reality is that American people seem to be in the polls. They're looking at their options. That much is clear. But what they're seeing is the same old, you know, unhinged behavior from Donald Trump. And, you know, frankly, DeSantis, we'll see. But most of the country doesn't really know him yet. They're not political junkies like us. So when they take a closer look at, you know, some of

his behavior and his obsession with Disney World, you know, it may look very similar to those people who are not part of the MAGA Trumpism world. They might be thinking, I'm concerned about inflation or a recession or housing prices. They're not thinking, you know, I want to see unhinged messages from Donald Trump for the next six years. That's not what they're thinking. No, they're really not. And again, you can see it play out in the polls again. People catastrophizing. I know Democrats a week ago were catastrophizing

because Joe Biden in one poll was what, 30, 36, 38 percent. Very interesting. There have been several polls since then showing that Joe Biden's doing A-OK. I haven't seen the media obsess over those polls. I mean, there's an economist poll, an economist YouGov poll that came out a couple of days ago. Look at that, Reverend Al. Joe Biden's job performance among registered voters, not adults, among registered voters, sitting at 50 percent. Now, I don't say this because I think right now Joe Biden's doing the best that he's ever done. I am right. I am showing this and the one we showed this past week, last week to say, OK, well, if this is an outlier,

are you going to sit and talk about it for a week like everybody talked about the outlier on the ABC News Washington Post poll, which was an outlier? You look at this again. This is the latest national poll that we have out from The Economist. Very, very respected media organization has his approval among registered voters at 50%. I just wonder again, are we going to have, because I'm still reading articles about last week's poll saying, saying somebody should run because Joe Biden's sitting at 36%. Yeah, and one poll here,

the most recent poll, he's at 50%. Will the media obsess over that over the next few weeks? Anyone that has been engaged in the political process for any amount of time, no, you can't take one poll and decide that you're going to call the race over anymore. In a boxing match, you take one round unless it's a knockout and say the fight is over. So clearly this is a long distance run. And Joe Biden couldn't have a better assist than the behavior of Donald Trump, who still is the assumed opponent he will face more and more every day. People are taking DeSantis less seriously.

He's like a baby in a crib with a rattle wanting to be like daddy more than he looks like an adult that belongs in the living room sitting around having a discussion. I think it will come down to Biden and Trump unless something dramatically happens. And I think the more we see the tirades of Donald Trump on Mother's Day, no less, the more it reminds people, wait a minute, I don't want to go back there. And I think that that is one of the assets that Joe Biden has, aside from some of his achievements as president. Right. And speaking of daddy issues, we'll be reading Maureen Dowd's op-ed this weekend, talking about Donald Trump's own daddy issues. And also talking about the fight being over Jonathan Lemire. I suppose at some point

over the next four hours, we will talk about one of the uglier weekends in Boston Red Sox history. But that time is not now. We have Admiral Stravita standing by to talk about the most important international election in quite some time unfolding right now in Turkey. Yeah, we'll do a deep dive on those catastrophic Red Sox losses later. But right now, let's get to this. It appears that Turkey will now hold a runoff election to decide its next president. That will pit incumbent President Recep Erdogan against his Democratic challenger, who has pledged to, quote, revive democracy in the nation. This weekend's election failed to produce a candidate that could clear the 50 percent threshold that's needed to win outright. According to Turkish state-owned news, Erdogan led by roughly five points and a runoff vote will take place on May 28th, Joe.

So the world has been watching this carefully. We know President Erdogan has at times been a thorn in the side of NATO. And we won't have the results of this election now for a couple more weeks. Right. I mean, coming also that those news reports coming from a state news agency controlled by a man who has persecuted more journalists over the past decade than any other. Yeah, I'm a little skeptical. There's good reason why I actually listen when his opponent says that they believe that when all the votes are counted, they'll be ahead.

But let's talk about this. Let's bring in former Supreme Allied commander of NATO, retired four star Navy Admiral James Trevita. He's the chief international analyst for NBC News. election is and more specifically, just how far they have backslidden in democratic norms over the past 10, 12 years since Erdogan's taken office. Yeah, it's very worrisome. And let's start with just the geography here. Turkey is a big country and it finds itself in between Europe, a volatile Middle East, Asia. It's got a dynamic young population and it's got the second largest military in NATO after only the United States. So a big geopolitical actor, very important to the alliance. Point number two, Joe, you've got to consider that Erdogan, if he wins this election, will have completely consolidated power in Turkey.

And he's edged up to it. I think the odds, unfortunately, are 75 to 80 percent. He'll probably achieve that in the coming runoff in two weeks. Let's wait and see. But it means you're going to see peak Erdogan. He will be in complete control of the country. He's imprisoned journalists. He pursues conspiracy theories. He is someone who has been very difficult for the alliance. Third and final point, what's he going to do? Will he continue the behavior like buying Russian weapons, getting close to Putin, objecting preposterously to the accession of Sweden to the NATO alliance? Will he continue that? Or will he now, with confidence, recognize that he's got to get his economy moving? That's the big problem for

Turkey. Will he lean a little bit back toward the alliance? We don't know. But this is not good news for NATO this morning. No. And what a massive difference it would make if somebody came in more reform minded than Erdogan. Also, I wanted to ask you about what's going on in Ukraine. And you heard the news. It's pretty shocking. Ahead of the anticipated counteroffensive by Ukraine against Russian forces, The Washington Post this morning reporting the head of the Wagner Group made an extraordinary offer. It was this, quote, If Ukraine's commanders withdrew their forces from around Bakhmut, that's where his forces were getting slaughtered by Ukraine, he would give Kiev information on Russian troop positions, which Ukraine could use to attack them.

He was going to give up Russian positions so those soldiers could be killed. According to the Post, the offer was conveyed by the Wagner Group's leader and contacts in Ukraine's military intelligence, with whom he's maintained secret communications during the course of the war. That, according to previously unreported U.S. intelligence documents, NBC News hasn't reviewed the documents in question. But this has been coming for quite some time, a real rift between the Wagner chief and Vladimir Putin. This shows just how divided Putin's inner circle is right now. Yeah, with friends like Yevgeny Progozin, you really don't need enemies. And I think that Progozin's days are numbered at this level.

What he is doing is in a mafia context, he's ratting out. He's going to he's going to find himself at the bad end of a bomb or a cup of poison tea before too much longer. And that's good news for Ukraine and good news for the West. And, Joe, if you look at how the spring offensive is going to go, I think it'll start in the days or weeks ahead. Certainly, weather looks good. The tanks are flowing in, the training, the morale. I think the Ukrainians are going to have a very good spring and these two scorpions in a bottle of the Wagner Group and the Russian military. That's got to be keeping Putin awake at night. Well, and if you're the head of the Wagner Group right now, you want to stay in ranch houses for the foreseeable future. Do not go

three, four, five, six stories. You will fall off the balcony. Admiral, I wanted to ask you really quickly also about right now a ceasefire between the Israelis and Palestinian fighters. Nobody's talking about this, unfortunately. Very few people are still talking about it. I know Tony Blair is still obsessing over peace there, but you know, a lot of the Sunni Arab states have moved on. They've made peace with Israel at times, I must say, in talking to them off the record, they're openly contemptuous of the Palestinians, saying that they just have missed one opportunity after another for peace. That may be the case for their leadership, maybe the case for Hamas. But it's the Palestinian people who continue to suffer day in, day out, week in, week out, month in. I mean, at some point, my God, it's got to end.

Can you tell us how we get there? Boy, if I could do that, I should probably be picking stocks as well as predicting Palestinian outcomes. But I'll give you three things that could help. You mentioned the Sunni Arabs. I think there is still room to maneuver there. And as the Sunni Arabs, the Gulf States, if you will, get closer to the Israelis, and they have been over the last three or four years, there's some negotiating and some leverage there. So bringing that together. Number two, Israel has to put order in its own house. It's in the midst of enormous internal controversies

about the Netanyahu government, its attempts to change the Supreme Court there. That's got to be solved before a united Israel can work coherently with the Palestinians. And third and finally, my counsel to the Palestinians is you are so much stronger together. They're divided between very radicalized groups down in the Gaza Strip and more moderate, if you will, factions in the West Bank. If they can't bring themselves together, there's no outside help for peace. All right, Admiral, thank you so much. Greatly appreciate it. And we're going to get back to the new polling showing Ron DeSantis presenting a much tougher general election challenge to Joe Biden than Donald Trump would. Also going to dig in to the latest poll that has Joe Biden at

a 50 percent approval rating. Also ahead had the number of migrants crossing the United States at the southern border. Surprisingly, there's a big shock. It's actually dropped dramatically since Title 42 expired last week. We're going to get a live update from El Paso and cover much more, including the disaster at Fenway. You're watching Morning Joe. Happy Monday. It's so great to be with

you, to start this week together with you. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be back in a minute. All your people keep on dying. Whoa. Wait a look at that.

Chopper 4 over New York. I feel like I'm running the morning shift at WNBC. That's exciting. 624 in New York City. It is an absolutely gorgeous day this morning. Get up and da-da-da-da. Now, look how beautiful it is in New York City. Beautiful May day.

It's looking like summer. It's awesome. I could kind of do this for a couple hours, to be honest with you. All right, I got to snap out of it, Alex says. All right, Let's go from a beautiful picture of New York to just just pure spasms of of of of lucidity once in a while punctuated by a lot of idiocy. The Republican led Oversight Committee is claiming, of course, without direct evidence that President Biden's family engaged in elaborate

influence peddling schemes. The chair of that committee, Kentucky Congressman James Comer, talked about those allegations in an interview yesterday and ended up admitting they've lost contact with a submarine. Now that's a Hunt for Red Hot Cobra joke. With the informant who made the initial claim. You have spoken with whistleblowers. You have spoken. You also spoke with an informant who gave you all of this information. Where is that informant today? Where are these whistleblowers? Well, unfortunately, we can't track down the informant. We're hopeful that the informant is still there. The whistleblower knows the informant.

The whistleblower is very credible. Hold on a second, Congressman. Did you just say that the whistleblower or the informant is now missing? Well, we we're hopeful that we can find the informant. Remember, these informants are kind of in the spy business, so they don't make a habit of being seen a lot or being high profile or anything like that. Nine of the 10 people that we've identified that have very good knowledge with respect to the Bidens, they're one of three things, Maria. They're

either currently in court, they're currently in jail, or they're currently missing. So, comrade, you're telling me you lost another submarine? Come on, you lost an informant. You lost the informant. The guy that you claimed gave you all this information that you built this entire charade on. What do you in Durham like you guys have tea parties every weekend to talk about how you can destroy your reputations in your career? Durham tried this. Remember, he changed conspiracy theories to try to prove that the FBI was corrupt and rigged the 2016 election. He made a fool of himself time and time and time again. And now we have lost informants. In fact, the informant that this entire charade was supposedly built on.

Attorney Mark Zaid posted this on Twitter, that he's represented whistleblowers in the intelligence community for more than 25 years and never lost one. Never lost one. I really, I don't really know, Charlie, where to begin with this one, except for the fact that we had all of this breathless huffing and puffing about the FBI being corrupt and staging January the 6th and spying on Donald Trump. And then you had all of right-wing papers, Trumpy papers, saying that Durham was proving that Hillary spied. And then it all ended up being a lie. Durham made an absolute fool of himself and had to shut down the investigation.

And now you have Comer who said, oh, yeah, we have this this informant who we built this entire case on. But we lost him. It's more of the same. Yeah. The the hunt for the great white whale isn't going well, is it? I mean, it's never a good thing when you actually lose your informant. Look, you know, James Comer has been making one big promise after another. You know, he has been saying, you know, we're going to have this big, big bombshell. Well, what's pretty obvious is he doesn't have the bombshell. He doesn't have the smoky gun.

He doesn't have evidence. And he's lost his informant. I mean, this is beyond embarrassing. But this is what happens when you have an Internet meme and, you know, a Fox News narrative that comes up against actual reality when people say, you know, show us, show us the evidence. You have something. You've been promising us something really, really huge, something that's going to change everything. And it just doesn't happen. And James, James Comer continues to be all hat, no cattle when it comes to this investigation. And that was, by the way, when Maria Bartiromo

is saying to you, are you kidding me? You don't have evidence. When Maria Bartiromo is questioning the credibility, you know how bad things are. Exactly. Yeah. And Mara, the hunt for October is a good reference. I'm also reminded of that classic Seinfeld episode where Jerry goes to the rental car counter and says, well, it's one thing to take the reservation, but you've also got to hold the reservation. In this case, you've also got to hold the informant. You've got to hang on to him to make sure he actually can cooperate with your investigation. But it seems to be furthering on Charlie's point, a moment where it just the Republican Party just seems just out of touch with what people care about. They've been promising this Biden crime family, scare quotes, investigation for a long time. And we know that there are some legal matters with Hunter Biden. That's a separate issue in the Department of Justice. We know that's that that investigation is entering its end stages. But this blanket conspiracy has never gained

much traction. It didn't work in 2020. What are they thinking now? First of all, listening to that conversation, I mean, it may as well via Mad Libs, he could be talking about UFOs. I mean, we heard from them. Now we don't know where they are. It's hard to keep track of them. What really are we talking about here? I mean, the interesting thing is from a disinformation perspective, this was one of the rare moments of lucidity, as Joe said a moment ago, where you actually see that the emperor has no clothes and that this is all bunk. This is based on absolutely no real evidence whatsoever. Because of course, we know that you don't just miss, you know,

whistleblowers just don't go missing suddenly. So this is absurd. But it's also a moment to recognize that most Americans have no idea. They're not clued into these, you know, ginned up conspiracy theories. This is for a very small, specific audience in the Republican base that can be animated by these conspiracy theories. So I think the rest of America is going, what are you talking about? I'm looking at the price of life and living in this country. I'm interested in the border. I'm interested in jobs, in housing, in security, in how I'm going to feed my kids and

make sure that they have a better life than I did. Nobody cares about these conspiracy theories, except for the small part of the Republican base that is controlling the Republican Party, like a ventriloquist at the moment, it seems. And it's a really bizarre situation, not just politically, but culturally. Most Americans are thinking, what are these people talking about? Right. Completely out of touch.

Yeah, completely out of touch. They're not talking about, like you said, they're not talking about the inflation. They're not talking about the issues that matter to most Americans. And when they do all of this Biden crime family thing, they do two things at the same time to their base. First thing they do is they get them revved up about the Biden crime family, like a certain wife of the Supreme Court justice who talks about how

the Biden crime family should be put on barges outside of Gitmo, showing how disconnected from reality she is. And then the second thing is, you know, they're like, showing how disconnected from reality she is. And then the second thing is, you know, they're like, oh, well, the media is biased. They won't report about the Biden crime family. Well, again, it's just like they're saying we don't report about the FBI. You actually had Durham investigate the investigators longer than the investigation actually went on, trying to prove that the FBI, that the deep state, that all these people somehow had it out for Donald Trump. And it ended up being nothing. The only thing that came out of that investigation was that John Durham, who had a

good reputation before and destroyed his reputation, destroyed his career. And in this case, Rev, you now have the same thing. Oh, why aren't you talking about the Hunter Biden laptop? Why aren't you talking about this? Why aren't you talking about that? I'll just say what I've said all the time. I've said here time and again, you know, right now, Hunter Biden's being investigated by the Justice Department for, I think, tax issues. Hunter Biden's charged. OK, Hunter Biden's charged. I mean, I think, tax issues. If Hunter Biden's charged, okay, Hunter Biden's charged. I mean, you know, it's crazy. Other than Trumpists, most Americans believe that no man or woman is above the law.

So if he's arrested, if he's tried, if he's guilty, if he goes to jail, we'll all say, well, it's too bad. But that's the system. Unlike Republicans, who basically say they're going to burn down American democracy if somebody on the Republican side is actually brought to justice for crimes that they've committed. That's the big difference here. But you see, once again, with Comer, just like Durham had nothing on the FBI. Comer has nothing on this supposed Biden crime family deal that the Trump right absolutely obsess about. Well, what is strange to me is if you are running a campaign for president and and certainly

for the Senate and the Congress next year, Why do you want to remind people about crimes that you can't prove? You can't deliver people. Informant is lost. When your leader is under indictment under three other investigations, you shouldn't even want to bring up investigations and crimes. When a indicted person is the one leading your party. You ought to be talking about any other issue, because if you're going to try to appeal to voters, and I agree most voters could care less what they're saying, the last thing you want to do is bring up investigations, because people will say, investigations, oh yeah, didn't they

indict your candidate in Manhattan? Oh, yeah. Isn't he under investigation in Georgia and two federal indictments? And they didn't lose Miss Carroll, who won the lawsuit against him. She didn't get lost and neither did those that testified his like behavior. So that is what you're going to use as a measure. I think you lose that one seven to eight to zero. I think it is malpractice politically and it is laughable in terms of people that follow these things. You don't lose informants and then go out and hold press conferences about the information. And it's yet another example of Republicans speaking to a smaller and smaller and shrinking

portion of the electorate. But as Mara said, there is some news that Americans do care about. One of those things, the southern border, where the number of migrants apprehended has been in decline since Title 42 expired on Thursday. While fears of an influx built up ahead of the policy's expiration, the numbers so far tell a quite different story. The Secretary of Homeland Security confirmed yesterday border encounters have dropped, but he did warn it's too early to tell whether the immigration surge has peaked. Joining us now from El Paso, Texas, is NBC News correspondent George Solis. George, good morning. Great to see you. So give us a sense there. These numbers have taken a lot of people by surprise. It's probably too soon to draw

large conclusions. But what are you seeing there in El Paso? Good morning, Jonathan. And that drop in numbers is what's causing some anxiety here among some of the shelters that have been housing a lot of these migrants that have made it through those ports of entry. They say they wonder if that surge will ever come. Meanwhile, like you see behind me, there are still migrants that are arriving to border towns and they are sleeping on the sidewalk. Mind you, a lot of the people that you see behind me are men as the women and children are in the church behind me. That being said, there are still people coming in daily. And so many of them are still trying to find out where they are going to go next. So some of them, unfortunately, including those families, have no choice but to sleep on the sidewalks. We can't say things have remained

peaceful out here. Everyone seems to mind their own space. I had a number of conversations with a number of these migrant families who tell me the trip that they have taken is perilous. Many of them taking this trip over years, months, all of them saying they heard about the expiration of Title 42. And some of those whispers in their countries basically forced them to make that drastic decision to take matters into their own hands, whether or not to come here and risk entry, risk being detained and risk being deported. So those that have made it here, that made it before Title 42 expired, said they are now awaiting their court dates. And many of them have had some success navigating that CPB1 app. But many of them tell me it has been an absolute nightmare.

They say they cannot get appointments. If they do get appointments, they're scheduled miles and miles away. And some of those court dates before a judge are not until 2024, 2025, and I've heard in some cases as far as 2030. So it's clearly a system that they are still trying to navigate. And many of them are now trying to understand the new rules for entry because many of them fear that if they are now caught entering the country illegally, they may not be able to seek asylum for the next five years. So this is a heavy decision that weighs on a lot of these families. And again, kind of going back to what I just said about some of the conversations, we spoke with one mother who

was at a port of entry and she actually went into labor. She had her baby here in the U.S. That child and that mom safe, but they are staying here at one of the welcome centers. That child is only 15 days old. At one point, she told me she actually thought she had lost the baby when she had tripped on the journey. Spoke with another couple who said their four-year-old grandson was detained and separated from them at the border. So they are still here. They want to get to Dallas, but they will not go until they are reunited with that child. So again, some of the stories and some of the harrowing journeys we are hearing here along the border. Jonathan.

Not just numbers, but real human stories. Live from El Paso, Texas, NBC's George Solis, thank you for your reporting. And Joe, it's only been a few days since Title 42 expired, but at least so far, the story is not what so many expected. Not as bad as most of us expected. Reverend Al, I just want to ask you, though, looking out over the horizon, not just this week or this month, but over the next year or so. We have a situation where there's been a humanitarian crisis at the border now for years.

As I say here all the time, when Barack Obama left the White House, border crossings were at a 50-year low. That ramped up under Donald Trump. It's continued to go up under Joe Biden. And this issue reminds me of homelessness where people say, oh, it's just it's terrible not to let people live on the streets. Why are you so cold? Why do you want to push them into shelters or why? why are you so concerned about the homeless? Well, I think most of us are concerned about the homeless because the idea that people that have mental challenges, that have health challenges, that have safety challenges should be sleeping on grates in 20-degree weather, that's insanity. There's nothing humanitarian about it. We need to find shelter for every person that's out on the street.

And it's the same thing here. The idea that you're heartless if you try to enforce border policy. What happens when you don't enforce border policy? This is just the case. This is just the case. You encourage people to make an extraordinarily dangerous journey with their families. And there's one heartbreaking story after another heartbreaking stories. And there are millions of people to the south of the United States that would love to come to the United States and live here. Millions. Well, why? Why are we backed up one, two, three years on court cases?

Because we're overwhelmed at the southern border because we have a lot more people there than we've ever had plans for. So how do we move forward where we can actually not only create a more humanitarian situation at the southern border, but we can also have a more ordered process to have immigrants coming into this country. And like I said before, like Ronald Reagan, I believe we need more legal immigrants in America because immigration keeps our country young and vibrant. That's what Reagan said. I think he was right. No, it's no question Reagan was right on that particular point. I think the balance has to be that we have to deal with the humanitarian need to deal with people that are literally running from distress and all kind of social maladies

that they and their families are facing and balance that with a policy that is not throwing open the doors that we cannot afford to take and then start playing shenanigans like busing them to Democratic cities, mostly black mayors, or trying to play the blame game. We have to take responsibility that, yes, we're going to be humanitarian. But yes, we have got to manage this in a way that doesn't drain our own citizens in our own cities and gives false hopes to those that are coming because we can't eternally keep funding this. And I think that we're playing theatrics with Abbott and DeSantis and busing people and moving them around like they're pawns on a chessboard rather than saying there is a humanity issue here, but there's a management issue here. And if we're really humane, we will manage this right and deal with what we should for our neighbors without putting our own families and citizens in a situation that is less than what is palpable.

Well, you're so right. False hopes. I think that's something that the beginning of the Biden administration, there are a lot of people in Central America that were given false hopes. I think that's something that the beginning of the Biden administration, there are a lot of people in Central America that were given false hopes. They made that dangerous journey. And we've had an explosion at the southern border that's caused a massive humanitarian crisis. The thing I can't get, I know we have to go to break, so we'll go to break. But I want to talk about it on the other side or maybe moving forward. Republicans and Democrats really ought to be able to come together on this issue. I know that illegal immigration has been an issue that Republicans have used as a cudgel against Democrats for quite some time, but it doesn't work. Republicans, it doesn't work. It might work

in deep red districts, but look at the polling. It didn't even work when Donald Trump was elected to office. An overwhelming majority of Americans were opposed to his harsh anti-immigrant policies, right? It didn't help him in 2018 when they thought that talking about caravans of illegal immigrants carrying leprosy was going to help him out. Didn't help. Didn't help when Donald Trump sends troops to the border with barbed wire out. Didn't help. Didn't help. And Donald Trump sends troops to the border with barbed wire. That didn't help. They still lost that election. It didn't help in 2020. So it's not the potent political issue that Republicans have always thought it was going to be in elections. So maybe they can just do the right thing and maybe Democrats can come together and do the right thing. And maybe they can. Democrats can give on border security and actually be for really strong border security to strengthen our borders.

And maybe Republicans can give on dreamers. Maybe Republicans can give on the number of immigrants that can come into this country legally, on the number of refugees that we take into this country legally, on the number of high tech visas that we actually put out there. So people will be starting businesses in North Carolina instead of going back home to New Delhi after they get the best education on the planet. Makes no sense. Let's make a deal. It's really, it just shouldn't be that hard. It really shouldn't. If you look at the situation, shouldn't be that hard. And coming up, your Donald Trump says really, really stupid things at the town hall meeting about Ukraine. Well, the Republican chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee tried to clean it up a little bit, tried to clarify.

I put that in quotation marks. Donald Trump's latest stance on the war in Ukraine. We'll have those comments for you. Plus, the former president is promising to bring back a top advisor who's been promoting QAnon conspiracy theories. Still, Trump says he'll bring Michael Flynn back if reelected. We'll talk about that when we return on Morning Jail. An excellent first half. And then that third quarter.

Outscored 33-10. Tatum fires away. Pucks it in! 51 for Jason Tatum in game seven. So let me ask you, Lemire, does that make up for two blown saves after an incredible start by Paxson and Sale? I don't know if it quite makes up for it, Joe. We've got to do a deep dive on what was just a calamitous weekend at Fenway.

But across town, happier New England sports fans. Jason Tatum, who has really struggled at the start of games this series. Well, no slow start yesterday. This young Celtics star exploded for 25 first-half points on the way to a historic 51-point effort. That's the most in a Game 7 in NBA history, and he led Boston to a serious clinching win over their rival, the Philadelphia 76ers.

The teams were neck and neck over the first two quarters, but the Celtics absolutely blitzed Philadelphia in the third, going on a 33-10 run, and they pulled away with what turned out to be a pretty easy 112-88 victory. The Celtics now advance to the Eastern Conference Finals against the Miami Heat, who always play them really, really tough. The Heat eliminated the New York Knicks in Game 6 on Saturday. Game 1 of the Eastern Conference Finals, Wednesday night in Boston. Meanwhile, the Denver Nuggets will open the Western Conference Finals

against the Los Angeles Lakers tomorrow night. Nuggets, Lakers, Heat, Celtics. Joe, a pretty good Final Four. Pretty exciting. Let's bring in right now the president of the Council on Foreign Relations and frustrated forever New York Knicks fan, Richard Haas. Richard, you almost made it. Almost made it to, well, maybe the Eastern Finals.

Any hope? It's only been 50 years of rebuilding, Joe, and I think it's important to keep perspective on this. Knicks had the best player on the court for the whole series, Jalen Brunson. It just wasn't enough. The rest of the team couldn't find the basket. I don't think they would have been good enough to build the Celtics. But the Knicks this season emerged as a team with a lot of good young players. So as I say, there's always next year. Hope is alive and frustrated, but feeling okay. It's just like with the Yankees, right?

Hope is alive. You're feeling good about the Yankees, right? Would have felt better if they'd won yesterday. Actually, it was funny. Friday night, I was at the game, watched the Yankees pull it out, Rizzo's two home runs. And then nobody left the Madison Square Garden. Everyone went inside and was just watching the Knicks game. And that was Friday night there.

Yeah, so let me ask you this, Richard. Have you studied? Now, you know, we believe in grace on this show, so we're going to give you another chance. Have you studied your four majors in golf? Can you tell us what's next? Because we're all terribly wrong. This weekend,

Joe, I know. Thank you. I want to thank you first of all, for this mulligan, forgive me a second chance. It's I give myself a mulligan every day on this show, but go ahead.

We come from different religious traditions, but I appreciate your forgiveness. This second opportunity. Yeah. PGA starts in upstate New York Oak Hill this, this weekend. What was great about golf this past weekend, Jason Day, one of the greatest players in the world who hadn't won in over five years, won yesterday and goes into PGA with a little bit of momentum. But there's others, John

Rahm, you know, who just won the Masters. There's so many good players now. There's 15 or 20 people. You're just throwing out names now. You're just throwing out names now because you want to get your position back, and that's fine. You got it back. Are those real people? I don't know if they are or not. We're going to fact check them later,

and people on Twitter are going to say once again that was one of the most bizarre conversations I've heard. As they said after our last golf conversation. Speaking of bizarre, speaking of really bizarre, in last week's town hall, former President Donald Trump would not say whether he wanted Ukraine to win the war against Russia or not. Of course, we know why. Yesterday, Republican Congressman Mike McCaul of Texas, the chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, the guy who's been steadfastly on the side of Ukraine, tried to explain what he thought Donald Trump was thinking. Here's what Donald

Trump said last week, followed by Chairman McCaul's comments yesterday. Do you want Ukraine to win this war? I don't think in terms of winning and losing. I think in terms of getting it settled so we stop killing all these people. Can you say if you want Ukraine or Russia to win this war? I want everybody to stop dying. I mean, what do you say to that? He's your Republican frontrunner right now. Well, and I think Donald Trump— And he can't say whether or not he wants Ukraine

to win against Russian aggression. I think he always thinks in terms of winning and losing. I will say this. I think what he is thinking is that this counteroffensive, which is happening soon, will be so successful that we can have a ceasefire and maybe get to a negotiating

phase. Yeah. No. Yeah, no. Actually, Donald Trump, the chairman's right about one thing, Richard. Donald Trump always does think in terms of winning and losing. That's all that matters to him. So to say, I don't think in terms of winning and losing is a lie, first of all. Secondly, it goes against what Republicans have always seen as what a strong commander in chief should say, how he or she should act, what he or she should do. When Ronald Reagan was asked what his strategy was against the Soviet Union, he said, it's easy. We win. They lose. Here, Donald Trump's going, I don't really think about winning,

which once again reveals, as we saw on this show in December of 2015, this guy has some really bizarre fixation, really strange, unexplained connection still eight years later with vladimir putin that he can't even say he hopes the freedom fighters whose country was invaded by a leader who is committing war crimes every day he can't even say that he wants that side fighting for freedom to win. You can't be neutral in a situation like this of such moral absolutism. There's not a lot of rules in this world, Joe. Not a lot of norms or rules. The only one that's really out there, the most basic one, is you cannot use force to change borders. That aggression cannot become the new normal. And that's what this war is about. So it's clear that Russia has to lose. If Russia does not lose,

we'll have nonstop war in Europe, plus others will take their cue from it. And we'll see this world really begin to look like a jungle. So it's not a gray area. The only gray areas, I'm not going to give the former president the benefit of the doubt here. He doesn't deserve it. And his answer is, I think we have to have a conversation. You and I have had it on the air about what Ukraine has to be able to accomplish militarily in the way of liberating Russian controlled territory. That's an insider, if you will, foreign policy conversation. But Russia must be frustrated in its aggression. There can't be a debate. They have to be. And Maura, great news. Over the last few days, Germany has now pledged

an additional $3 billion. That doubles their commitment already. So certainly the Germans aren't thinking like Donald Trump's thinking. Nobody in NATO is thinking that way, that it doesn't matter who wins or loses. Well, it's such a stark contrast as we're starting to see Donald Trump in particular on the campaign trail, because really, you know, there's a coalition in the West that still is invested in democracy, still cares about democracy and wants to see a country like Ukraine, you know, triumph as a win for democracy around the world, which is under threat everywhere. We know that. And of course, other Republicans know that, too. They're just not standing up to Donald Trump, which is really not a good sign either of things to come. They just can't quite seem to quit him, as you said, Joe.

But also I think, you know, Germany is invested. Their history, right, is at play here. There's some wisdom here. They have been the beneficiary of, of course, years and years ago of the Marshall Plan. And so I think that there's some wisdom there. And I hope that we see momentum continue to grow to help Ukraine. And of course, the more that the Western Alliance does, the less the United States has to go it alone. Of course, they've not been going

it alone, but in terms of just the financial obligation, which is enormous. So sharing that burden is important, too. And it's it looks like momentum has has returned for springtime in the. It really does. For sure. It really, really, really does. And Charlie, you know, essentially, there's always been even in Trump's lowest moments of kissing up to Vladimir Putin. Again, I talk about, you know, starting back on this show in 2015, when when we kept pushing him about his support for Vladimir Putin and saying Putin was a strong leader and saying, but he kills journalists and he he kills reporters. And Donald Trump, instead of condemning that, condemned the United States, says we kill people too. Now, of course, that's devolved into the United States being the greatest threat to Western democracy. It's really perverse anti-American babble.

But it's interesting. There has been a divide between Republicans and Donald Trump on this issue. Even when Trump was president and senators just shamed themselves every day, bowing and scraping to him. They didn't do that on Russia. They enacted really tough sanctions on Vladimir Putin. They pushed to help defend Ukraine, just like they're helping Joe Biden right now in a bipartisan effort. And I know we hear a lot about, you know, backbenchers who are like have Kevin McCarthy's ear about being weak on Ukraine. But the overwhelming majority of Republicans in the House and the Senate still tough on Ukraine, aren't they? I mean, still tough on Russia, aren't they? Yes, so far. But but what

you're seeing there with Michael McCaul, though, is how difficult it is to square the circle. I mean, this is, you know, the the ongoing bonfire of the normies. How do you explain what Donald Trump is saying when it's very clear that he is not supporting Ukraine, that he would abandon Ukraine, that he continues to be Vladimir Putin's poodle? And yet somehow you have to find a way to rationalize this. And you just saw that clip you played, how incredibly awkward it is, because whatever Michael McCaul thinks, that is not what Donald Trump said. Donald Trump is not waiting for the counteroffensive. This is not who he is. So we have this balancing act where Republicans continue to support Ukraine and they continue to pretend that Donald Trump is not who Donald Trump says he is over and over and over again. So it's going to be awkward.

And this is what they're buying into for the rest of the campaign and what a Trump 2.0 presidency would be like for them. All right, Charlie Sykes, thanks for being with us. Love having you on. Greatly appreciate you being here. So, Richard Haass, a huge election last night. If you care about democracy, a huge election. If you care about NATO, a huge election last night. If you care about democracy, a huge election. If you care about NATO, a huge election last night. If you actually care about freedom, press freedoms and the spread of freedom across Europe and into the Middle East.

Erdogan being taken into possibly a runoff. Can you talk about how important this election is, not just for NATO, but for the world? No, it's important. It's important, you know, given how it's Turkey's strategic location, Turkey's role as an influence in everything from Ukraine in NATO's future, given how they've sided with Russia in many areas, as a democracy, as a place that tends to imprison journalists. It's part of the larger trend, Joe, I think, as you're framing it, of whether democratic backsliding is the norm.

And Turkey's been a classic case of a democratic backslider. It's much over the last 20 years since Erdogan's run the place, it's become increasingly illiberal. It's moved away. But I'll be honest with you, I'm pretty disappointed with the results. The fact that Erdogan got such a plurality came very close to the 50 percent mark. The third party that got about 5 percent of the votes is even more to his right. I think between the politics and his ability, shall we say, to influence the counting of votes, I think it's almost a lock now that he's going to continue on as the leader of that country. And that's bad news for the United States. It's bad news for Europe and Ukraine.

This is a real disappointing outcome. It just shows still how weak and divided the opposition is in Turkey. But no one who cares about Western security or democracy can be happy with this likely outcome. We've only got two weeks until the next round, but I'm not feeling good about it.