Morning Joe - Morning Joe 5/18/23

Episode Date: May 18, 2023

Biden leading Trump by seven points in new 2024 polling

Beautiful sunrise in Washington, D.C. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Thursday, May 18th. Donald Trump has claimed that he could declassify materials just by thinking about them. Like I dream of Jeannie. But there is a new evidence in the Mar-a-Lago documents investigation that may prove he knows that's not true. Meanwhile, the former president is seizing on two failed endorsements in Florida from Governor Ron DeSantis while ignoring the lack of success his candidates had in the last election.

Also ahead, the latest on the debt ceiling negotiations with both sides digging in on one big issue. We'll explain what that is. And we're keeping an eye on President Biden this morning as he is in Japan for the G7 summit. Welcome, everybody, along with Joe, Willie and me. We have the host of way too early White House bureau chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, former aide to the George W. Bush White House and State Department's Elise Jordan is with us and former White House director of communications to President Obama, Jen Palmieri. She is co-host of Showtime's The Circus, and also with us this morning, former chairman of the Republican National Committee, Michael Steele joins us. And I see, I spy, Joe Scarborough showed up on time this morning. Joe?

It was close. Wow. I got to tell you, I didn't know if I was going to make it. Me either. Yeah. Last night if I was going to make it. Me either. Yeah. Last night, I was. Oh, no. Heard you had a big night out with Mike Barnacle.

I was exiting the polo bar, and it's usually the case with Mike Barnacle. I mean, we can't go anywhere in peace. We go outside, and he's got his subaru we run across the street and willie i don't joe stop be strong come on hold on it was tension city i'm telling you this was nearly catastrophic stop stop so come on we're going around, Willie. Okay, let's say this is Mike Super, okay? Super Outback, yep.

And these are all the paparazzi. Can I borrow your mug? Paparazzi mugs, right? And it was like this. Like, you couldn't, like, they're bumper cars, like,ugs, right? And it was like this. Like you couldn't, like, they're bumper cars, like, almost, right? We're going around the city

four hours. That's hard to do. But he's a good driver. You guys are laughing. He's a good driver. Four, for four hours. That is harrowing, Joe. I'm so sorry.

We're being chased around like we're caged animals. I tell you, we're not animals. Was it the women, too? We're human beings. Women were just, you know, trying to follow me over. Just a barnacle. He's a magnet. He's a magnet.

I'm telling you, Willie, four hours. Horrors. They're savages. Now, listen, the cab driver, we jumped into a cab. It was like right out of a hard day's night from one car to another. We run in there. They're all chasing us. And I'm telling you, swear to God, that we almost got just crushed like it was horrible. And I tell you, I tell you, man, we get in. We get in the cab. Hold on. We get into the cab.

Hold on. We get into the cab, Willie. And the cab driver later says, what dangerous? It was like a picnic. It was. It's New York City. What is it? Nearly catastrophic.

He didn't even know who you were in the backseat. He didn't even know who I was. It's a normal pick up and drop. I mean... Well, this happened also. Here's the only segue I have, folks. I understand it also. This is happening a lot, Mika. Yeah.

This is not... This is not what we do. This is horrible. This is happening all over America right here. It's TJ here. Hey, we'd like to show, Hey, see anybody. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Where am I going? Wait, can you get this camera? This is happening all over New York city. This is happening all over. It's a scourge. You know, we have Mayor Eric Adams on the show. I'm going to ask him. I'm going to ask him how he can let it go.

Four hours. If the city is not safe for you and Mike Barnacle, the city has real problems. Exactly. What's happened to this? Four hours. Just be nice. It could have been tough. Mika, come on.

A two-hour chase around New York City and the cab driver's like, eh, no, I wouldn't call it dangerous. Well, they were in an SUV on the highway, which is also questionable judgment.

So I think... Wait, wait, hold on a second. Can I just say, 80 miles on the... Here's the deal. Once you get on the FDR, there are no speed limits. And if you're going up the Henry Hudson, I'm thinking only

80. I mean, seriously, Willie, you and me, we've probably broke 100 going up. It's like Fast and Furious. It is. You're big diesel, I'm ludicrous. And there's Barnacle and Subaru kind of swerving in between us.

It's kind of crazy. The hatchback, he's kind of weird. I'll tell you what, I got a Kia van, a minivan, and that thing takes off. It goes surprisingly. Those things are amazing. They are. I love it. So, listen, here's the deal, Willie.

I would love, like everybody's impression of the recounting of this, the nearly catastrophic chase for two hours. You mentioned the cab driver who drove. Are they still the Duke and Duchess? I thought they got rid of those. They're not, right? No. So Harry and Meghan. And he picked them up. He said, it wasn't so bad. The New York police

publicly were a little more tempered. Privately said, no, we've got cameras. There are no arrests, no collisions. But let's get the story. Let's get the full story. Their story, because I've already told my story. And let's get their story. And we understand the full story. Their story, because I've already told my story. And let's get their story. And we understand, of course, why Harry has memories of what happened to his mother.

That's the context for all this. But here's NBC News national correspondent Gabe Gutierrez with more. Prince Harry and his wife Meghan Markle seen here leaving a charity event in New York. And there appear to be differing accounts about what happened next. A spokesperson for the Duke and Duchess of Sussex admonishing photographers for a relentless pursuit that lasted two hours and resulted in multiple near collisions involving other drivers on the road, pedestrians, and two NYPD officers. Adding, the near catastrophic car chase came at the hands of a ring of highly aggressive paparazzi. The briefing I received, you know, two of our officers could have been injured. I thought that was a bit reckless and irresponsible. At least three law enforcement

sources tell NBC News the couple was followed, not chased, and that the incident was a bit chaotic, not near catastrophic. I would find it hard to believe that there was a two-hour high-speed chase. In a written statement, the NYPD says numerous photographers made the couple's transport challenging, but there were no reported collisions, injuries, or arrests. Harry and Megan had private security as they left this venue, and two law enforcement sources tell NBC News that they wanted to return to Manhattan's Upper East Side where they were staying with a friend and did not want the paparazzi to follow. So the law enforcement sources say the couple was driven up and down Manhattan for more than an hour with a police escort. Then the pair was taken to this police precinct where a taxi picked them up. Would you

describe it as chaotic? Yeah, chaotic. You could say chaotic. Catastrophic? I don't know what happened previous in the day, right? With me, it was chaotic, but not crazy, crazy, right? Do you think the paparazzi went too far? You know, I don't know. They kept their distance when they were following us in my cabin. Sunny Singh told us he's the taxi driver who picked up the couple, but he says they drove around for only 10 minutes before the street was blocked by a garbage truck. People just came out of nowhere with cameras and started snapping pictures. Did they seem worried?

They seemed worried. They seemed worried and nervous as well. He then says he dropped them back off at the police precinct, where a different car eventually took them home. Prince Harry, of course, has railed against the paparazzi for much of his life, accusing them of invading his privacy. I had to do everything I could to protect my family. Though critics say Harry and Meghan also court the cameras and publicity, pointing to their Netflix docuseries. No one sees what's happening behind closed doors. It was 26 years ago this summer that his mother, Princess Diana, died during a car chase in Paris. We would get followed, photographed, chased, harassed.

The clicking of cameras and the flashes of cameras makes my blood boil. It makes me angry. It takes me back to what happened to my mom, what I experienced when I was a kid. And of course, you absolutely understand why he feels that way. You won't get a defense of the paparazzi here, generally speaking. But the New York City Police Department did come out and say it may have been chaotic. It certainly was not near catastrophic. But they are looking at every traffic camera. Every corner in this city

is covered by cameras. And they're going to look. And if anybody committed a crime, they'll go find them. Yeah, I mean, they're saying, the police are saying, well, the record wasn't really much to do about. Nothing. The cab driver said, oh, they followed, but at a respectful distance. Yeah, but you know what? Who wants to be followed?

Who wants, that's, and when they have to drive elsewhere to get out of the way, they have to drive around for however that long, that's not okay. Come on, who has to drive around to a long. That's not okay. Come on. Who has to drive around? That's like harassment. Come on. You follow me around all the time. All the time. The same way around, but okay. I follow you around, okay? You call that harassment? I do. I do. You get lost. You don't know where you're going. You've never seen anybody. She's got worst eyesight.

I've got to turn to politics. Worst eyesight. She seriously can't see anything. I'm guiding her, really. I'm guiding her. This is a good time for me to tell you I'm legally blind, actually. And I have special contacts. Well, obviously you're legally blind.

You're married to me. I'm making the turn. She set that up. Mika, what do we do here? to me when you work the cat skills the way i do come on don't set up any beauty pitches you are jackie mason the middle doing a bill hey did judge any home runs last night no they lost i'm extra innings really yeah pitchers. Pitchers duel. They gave up a three-run home run in the 10th walk-off. Yeah, you know. Still in fourth place, though, not last. You know, Lupica had declared the Sox season over two nights ago.

Yeah. And now we've won two, and now he's texting all of us saying, this is a team of destiny. It's a real rollercoaster ride being a Red Sox fan. Not really. It's the end of the world one night. World Series. But you see, that's the thing.

Don't need that. It's a marathon, baby. Of course. It's like driving your car through New York City. Like it takes hours and hours just to go like three blocks. That's true. It's a marathon. And, Lamir, why don't we bring you into this?

And, Mika, we will get to this polling. Which, by the way, we're leading with this polling because it's in the New York Post, which is, of course, what is it, Willie? Paper of record. It's a paper of record for Morning Show. Do you think if we say that enough, they'll invite us over and let us go through and just see the printing presses? That'd be fun. Wouldn't that be fun to go over to the New York Post?

Meet the headline writers. I want to meet the headline writers. The headline writers are incredible. I want to meet the headline writers. Duke of Hazzard is excellent. Duke of Hazzard, of course. Exactly, exactly. You're in full Regis mode right now.

Sussex drama queen. You're the post. Wow. No, but there's this. Oh, let's see here. Let's see. There's this seven point. Well, they had it online. Maybe they didn't put it in the paper. But so Biden's got the seven point lead over Trump, according to the New York Post. The New York poll showed and Biden's there it is by Biden's

Biden's crushing, absolutely crushing Donald Trump in this poll. Now, do I think that this is the end all be all poll? I mean, it's in The New York Post. So, of course, I do. But other than that, are we going to talk about this poll now for a month? Like we talked about the one bad Joe Biden poll. We showed you a poll the other day that was from The Economist, one of the most respected publications on the planet. They had Joe Biden at 50 percent. Do I think he's at 50 percent? Probably not.

Maybe it's an outlier. But guess what? I didn't hear the media talk about that for a week and a half. I didn't have like Democrats telling me they had to tear the sheets from their bed because they wet their bed for a week talking about how badly Joe Biden was going to do next year. It's all very selective. I swear to God, it's the one poll, the one poll. And people are still writing articles like in in in major newspapers saying, well, you know, Biden, you know, he has a 36 percent approval rating and wherever the world's coming to an end.

Well, New York Post, paper of record, what are they having, Matt? They're crushing Donald Trump, 47 to 40. The Economist has him at 50% among registered voters. I don't, you know, let's talk about these for a week. Seriously, let's talk about these for a week. If we're talking outliers, it's just stupid. That's all I have to say. But let's go to Jonathan O'Meara because I almost got to news.

And I was a little concerned about that. It's like I was swerving around New York for four hours and didn't know where I was going. Let's talk about the Boston Celtics really quickly because that's what people want. They want to see your pain. They want to see your suffering. They want to see your Irish anguish spill out all over the screen. Tell us about your Boston Celtics last night. Good morning to you too, Joe. Glad you survived yesterday's harrowing ordeal. This is who the Celtics are. They have been a, they're extremely

talented, but deeply inconsistent and frustrating team. They look like the best team in the league one night, the game seven win against Philadelphia. Jonathan, can I just interrupt and just say I don't really care about an NBA. Does anybody care about the NBA? I do. All right, Willie Dessler, go ahead. Go ahead, John. All right, I'll direct this. Willie, good morning to you. The Celtics, yeah, this was there.

Jimmy Butler, you saw him there. I mean, he is just goes to another level every postseason. And the Celtics had a nine-point lead at half and then blew it. They came out, they gave up 46 points in the third quarter, and they lose another home playoff game. So this doesn't mean the series is over, but Miami, seventh seed or not, they absolutely could win.

They're smart, they're tough, and better coached than the Celtics. It's going to be a long series. Yeah, that's a shame. That's a real shame. Red Sox won, though, Joe, 12-3. Red Sox won. Mike Lupican now thinks they're the greatest team on the planet. So, Jen, let me ask you about... Wait, hold on. Here's the

Red Sox. They absolutely crushed Seattle. They got swept by the Cardinals, who are having one of their worst seasons ever. So that caused panic in Boston. But you're right. Everybody needs to just get a paper bag, take it to fill it up with like ribs and hot dogs.

Eat the ribs and hot dogs and then breathe into the bag. It's May. It's only May, people. It's only May. Exactly. So let's talk really quickly about Joe Biden. Oh, OK. I swear. Wait, what? Because we talked about the poll for a second. Swear to God, I'm getting so sick and tired. I can't do anything. Can't talk to a Democrat without them just collapsing about that. Biden's all he's going to lose. He was at 38 percent in the polls. They talk just like that. All of them do. It's like, do you people like I've heard this about Biden repeatedly. It's too old to win. He won in 2020. He's too old to get anything done.

He's too old to understand you can't pass bipartisan legislation. He passes the most bipartisan legislation since I don't know, maybe maybe LBJ. It goes on. He's too old. We're going to get crushed in the midterms. There's going to be a red wave. He has a historic midterm. He's too old. Yeah, I know he won the midterm, but guy, he's just too old. He does the State of the Union. They go, guy, he looks really good. I mean, this keeps going on and on. Goes to Kiev, shows up in Kiev a few weeks later. Shows up in Kiev a few weeks later. Oh, he's virile and mighty. And then two days later, oh, he's too old. And then, you know, and then this poll comes out a week and a half ago and everybody freaks out over it.

Nobody paying attention to the other polls that have him crushing Donald Trump. And he does. And it's like, oh, when he doesn't do press conferences and then he takes a lot of questions, manages really well, like puts McCarthy in a box. You know, McCarthy, every time they've had, they've had two meetings now on the debt limit, both times McCarthy and McConnell have walked outside and had to say something akin to like, we're not going to default continuing to put the Republicans in a box. So like that doesn't happen. And I think if the, I mean, you know, I was the White House communications art for Barack Obama. I know how frustrating it is with the, with the, when, when the press doesn't give you any wins. But I think that the White House is feeling, despite the hand-wringing, proof of concept.

It's working, right? The economy, wages are growing. Inflation continues to go down. The border, when Title 42 went away, they feel like that plan is working, that the numbers did not end up being as high as they expected to be. And now he's at the G7. Does he have to come home early? Yes, he does. To deal with

Republican dysfunction, there are consequences to what the Republicans do. But the polls are still lower than they would like, but at least in sort of every sector, foreign policy with Ukraine, the economy is starting to get better, getting the Republicans in a box on debt limit, proof of concept, it's working. Democrats will always fret. Yeah, always. So, Michael Steele, if you look inside this poll as well for the bedwetters that Joe's talking about, there's more encouraging numbers, which is the independent number, which is, as you know, very well decisive in a general election. Biden is plus 14 among independents.

And if you look a little deeper, Donald Trump's approval rating among independent voters is 21 percent. Twenty one percent. His disapproval is in the 70s. That's where the election is won or lost. And Donald Trump is doing terribly with them. And that's not getting any better, especially off the CNN town hall. It is not. And that is where the last few cycles have been for for Republicans. They cannot pull those suburban independent voters back to the table with them. And the reasons are myriad. There's abortion. There is gun legislation.

There is, to what was just said about the economy, people, while they may say, oh, you know, to Joe's point, oh, the sky is falling, there's a disaggregation of how people feel about certain things and how they're going to vote. And I think at the back end of this, which is a very interesting kind of piece, this whole democracy thing, which people kind of sort of blew off, is still a threat. The narratives around a president who has now been, you know, adjudicated to have sexually, you know, offended, abused a woman. These types of narratives do not help with independent voters. They just don't. Yes, there is a desire to get into policy and to talk about what the economy is going to look like,

what's going to happen at the border, et cetera. But then you have all these other actions that are being performed by the characters inside the GOP. And that's around abortion that we see playing out in the state legislatures. It is around, you know, these sort of crazy conversations that Marjorie Taylor Greene types are having, who've been raised up inside the party by the Republican leadership to speak for them. And those voters are hearing that going, I'm not doing crazy. I'm not. I just can't. And so you've seen that reflected in a lot of these numbers. And while people want to fixate on, oh, Joe Biden is old

or Joe Biden has a bad poll, voters invariably to Joe's earlier points are falling back to the point that I can't do crazy. So there is no red wave. I can't do crazy. Democrats are winning these special elections in places like Florida, in some of the largest cities that they shouldn't be winning in. So I mean, from Jacksonville to Wisconsin to Kansas, Democrats have been wildly overperforming, even in red areas. Well, I mean, that's exactly right, Joe. How much does abortion have to play with that? When you look at these what's happening in these states, I just can't imagine that these bans, these stricter laws on a procedure that women need for their health isn't impacting the way even some Republicans vote. I'm sorry. Whether they say it or not, they understand that women need health care. It's not their business or that women need health care. It's not their business or that women need health care.

Can I just put an exclamation point on that? Because I think a lot of the public narrative around this issue is way off base. People want to fall into this pro-life versus, you know, pro-choice camp and that, you know, the world is just kind of moving in this pro-life direction. The reality of it is a lot of pro-life voters do not like what's been happening in these state legislatures, do not like what's been happening with criminalizing the wombs of women, penalizing those who help them, who are trying to get the kind of medical care and attention that they need. And so if you keep believing that everybody is buying what

you're selling, you continue to sell bad stuff. And you're seeing this play out in ways that, you know, Kansas City becomes a real big example of the problem that the party is having on an issue like abortion. Well, we're going to continue this conversation because we finally got to it with some political news coming up. The political tension between Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis. We have evidence of that and also evidence potentially that Donald Trump knew he was mishandling classified documents. That's all ahead on Morning Joe. It's almost half past the hour. Evidence cited in a new report may undercut former President Donald Trump's claims that the secret documents he took to Mar-a-Lago were automatically declassified.

CNN reports the National Archives has informed the former president it will give special counsel Jack Smith 16 records that show Trump and his top advisers had knowledge of the correct declassification process while he was president. In a May 16th letter, the acting archivist writes to Trump, quote, the 16 records in question all reflect communications involving close presidential advisers, some of them directed to you personally concerning whether, why and how you should declassify certain classified records. The letter has not been independently verified by NBC News. The letter reportedly goes on to say Trump tried to block the special counsel from accessing the 16 records by asserting a claim of constitutionally based privilege. But the archivist rejects that claim by Trump, stating in the letter, the special counsel's office, quote, is prepared to demonstrate with specificity to a court why it is likely that the 16 records contain evidence that would be important to the grand jury's investigation. Joe, this seems like, I mean, he just constantly says that he like I dream of Jeannie can blink and the documents are somehow declassified.

There is going to be a big problem for the former president if he continues to double down on lies about taking classified documents away from where they're supposed to be in government archives? Yeah, yeah, no doubt about it. And at least he has said Donald Trump has said, well, all I have to do is think, think about it. And they're declassified. There is a process. The importance of this obviously is they have records now of the archives working with Trump saying,

if you want to declassify these documents, this is a proper way to do it. They got it. Now, Donald Trump's trying to assert privilege, as Mika said. And this Supreme Court, the Roberts Supreme Court, they're going to they reject every one of his claims when it comes to things like this. So it is it's going to be extraordinarily important when it comes to intent. Well, he had a chance to come clean sensibly. And yet he still went back and messed around with the documents, tried to still intercept documents. That's not good for him because you look at the way that President Biden handled it, the way that Vice President Pence handled it. And it was just such dramatically different circumstances.

So this case, to me, seems like he's at more of a risk of legal peril, really, than political peril, because I don't think voters, frankly, care that much or understand that much about classified documents. But the legal risk seems to be there well and willie they do understand about obstruction yeah that's what separates him from everybody else it's done this they understand about lying to general documents no i don't will you sign something where you and your lawyer swear you don't have any documents sure we'll sign that and we'll give it back to you fbi and then they give it back and they're lying to him they do understand that and i in the end, that's his biggest problem. I think that the obstruction, the lying and in Georgia, I think those are his real problems as he moves forward as a candidate. As you said, that's the difference between Mike Pence and Joe Biden, which is they found them in boxes.

They alerted the proper authorities, went through the channels and gave them back obstruction in this case. And that's why the FBI had to get a search warrant to go and get the rest of those documents. And we talked about the additional trouble that Donald Trump made for himself at last week's CNN town hall. He said, quote, when he was asked about this, I took what I took, which sounds kind of like a confession to a lot of people. And said it was OK for him to show it to whoever he wanted to show it to. And then his lawyer quit. And then his lawyer quit. Good chain of events there. Exactly.

I haven't really heard him tell one clear story on this yet. I don't think anyone has. But that's going to be played out in the court of law. We'll see what happens legally. But politically, the problem for former President Trump often can be losing. And now there's tension between the former president and the Florida governor, Ron DeSantis, who is expected to enter enter the 2024 Republican primary field in the coming weeks. Donald Trump is ratcheting up his attacks against his likely opponent. In a series of posts on his social media site yesterday, Trump mocked DeSantis for endorsing two Republicans who lost state elections on Tuesday.

Ron's magic is gone, he wrote after the DeSantis-backed candidate finished third to the Trump-backed candidate in Kentucky's Republican primary for governor. Trump also bemoaned Republicans' loss in Jacksonville, Florida, the mayoral election on Tuesday, claiming, quote, if they would have asked me to endorse the candidate, we would have won easily. You don't understand. the candidate that he endorsed in the Jacksonville race. It's kind of weird. It's not even from Jacksonville. Dr. Oz. I mean, he keeps endorsing Dr. Oz. And I mean, Michael, still, if you're going to win, you got to stop endorsing Dr. Oz. He's not even from Jacksonville. I guess he voted for Erdogan this past week. I'm not sure who he voted for over there.

But come on, did he really think the good people of Jacksonville were going to vote for a TV doctor? There's so much winning. I don't know how Republicans stand. I'm tired of it, to be honest with you. They've got to be exhausted. I just, you know,

you know, I wish, you know, I, you know, I, I wish, you know, if I knew that to keep my job at the RNC, all I had to do was lose. I could have signed up for that. Look, look, this is, this is an interesting tension inside the GOP. I just don't know if the base gives a damn about it. It's a very weird signal out there that there's a, I think there's a longer play here, Joe. I'd love to get your thoughts on how I'm looking at this, because I don't think the base is as put out as the establishment obviously is. They want the power and the control. The base thinks as put out as the establishment, obviously, is they want the power and the control. The base thinks they can get that power and control in other ways. And so these big races that everyone kind of focuses on and says, well, this is a turning point.

This means that this means this. A lot of the rank and file folks are like, OK, if you say so, because I look around and see where they're winning at school board elections, where they're winning, you know, at local levels, where they're taking over infrastructure and control of, you know, of electoral processes. There's a longer play here, a longer strategy that sets up a much more difficult future for the country, I think, in many respects. So these sort of losses in the horse races that are called by the mainstream media, for example, or Morning Joe, they look at that and they go, OK, you focus on that. We have another play. There's a longer term. And I think the press oftentimes fixates on Ron DeSantis and, you know, Donald Trump. And the base is like, oh, we would we would Trump. So y'all keep on talking about this going someplace else.

And I just think you lose sight of the longer play. I think what I obsess over is five, six states that are going to determine whether we have a fascist in the White House or somebody who supports American democracy. So I keep saying I keep talking about the same six, seven states. And you can say, well, why is he always because on election night, those those states are going to matter. And in those states, they're going to be counties, you know, a handful of counties that are going to determine who wins that race. The school board race in Omaha are in. Well, Omaha actually matters for the one electoral vote that goes back and forth. But Idaho, I'm not really focused on that as much as, you know, Jen, I hate to keep saying it, the suburbs of Atlanta, the suburbs of Philly,

the suburbs of Detroit, the suburbs of of of Milwaukee, Maricopa County. And when I look at independent voters breaking away from either candidate right now, they're breaking away from Donald Trump. And when I look at actions that make them break away, that that suddenly makes a big difference. When I look at checks, because I can tell you when when I won in 94, it was a huge shock that we took over the House of Representatives. But if you had looked where Republicans had won in 93, you would have said, oh, well, I can connect those dots and see. You look at the huge Democratic wins in 18. You know, I remember reading stories in 17 about Democrats winning Delaware County, Pennsylvania, a county commissioner races for the first time in 100 years. You go, well, that's something Democrats winning in an incredible

turnaround in the Virginia Assembly. Nobody believed it. It was a shock in 2017. And I kept seeing those women standing in line, you know, when it was raining. And I looked at that. Oh, wow. That's so that's significant. And I could name five other races in 17 that Trump Republicans lost. It does actually connect the dots. It does matter. I believe it does. It does show you what's going to be happening the next year. I looked at the turnout numbers for Colorado Springs and Jacksonville yesterday because you thought, you know, like, all right, these were unusual. Democrat won in Colorado Springs. Democrat won in Jacksonville. It wasn't expected to happen. And thought, you know, do these people as a low turnout, did they win just by, you know,

kind of eking out? But no, it was like a big it was like a big turnout that that in both cities higher than the previous one so it just shows you like people are paying attention and i can't i have to think that the six-week abortion ban that just passed florida and what that did to the jacksonville mayor's race right and you know maybe there's polls that show ronda santos beating joe biden i don't know but not when they not when people understand about that he's for a six-week abortion ban. Yeah. Why do you think, Joe? He waded into that. Ron DeSantis, you know, Florida politics. It just seemed like it's for a while had stayed away. And I thought, oh, he's going to be smart enough to avoid this hot potato. And then he has to go there.

You know, I would say it's just people who lack the touch. They really do. You look at Donald Trump and Donald Trump. Why does Donald Trump act so crazy and act so radical? It's because he's not really a Republican. He's not really a conservative. So from the very beginning, he said, OK, I'm a Manhattan Democrat. I swear to God, this is this is it. I've known the guy. I'm a Manhattan Democrat. I'm very liberal on abortion. I'm very liberal on Donald Trump, very liberal on banning guns. He's very liberal on all of these issues. And so when he decided to run, he said, OK, well, what what are those backwater redneck Republicans think? What do they want? And so because he doesn't have the touch, because he's not conservative, he goes extreme.

Ron DeSantis, he doesn't have the touch. So he's like, OK, well, I can't lose anybody. Instead of, you know, when I ran in 94, everybody was talking abortion, everybody's talking about guns. They asked me, said, what are your abortion? And then Big Bay said, I'm pro-life. The national debt continues to explode. The national debt, you know, education needs to be decentralized. And, you know, because I was a conservative and I am a conservative. I understand because I had the whole thing my whole life. And I just knew that like in my district, at least people don't want to obsess

over that. Just throw it out there, talk about it and then talk about issues that will actually bring independents in, talk about issues that will bring Democrats in, that will bring swing voters in. These guys don't have the touch. It's all just like a wrecking ball because they think. And that's what I don't. I just I just don't. There has to be a Republican out there. Swear to God, there has to be a Republican out there that cares about the things that I care about, that cares about the things that I care about, that cares about the things that Americans care about. We got a thirty one trillion dollar national debt. We got Republicans talking about retreating and appeasing Vladimir Putin. We got Republicans talking about six week

abortion bans. If they had just if all of this would have been for naught and Republicans would have had the high ground on abortion. Progressives won't like this. This is the reality. If John Roberts had been able to convince Kavanaugh or Amy Coney Barrett, just come with me. Sign on to the 15 week Mississippi abortion ban with exceptions. That's where the majority of Americans are right now. If they had done that, none of these conversations would have been had. Republicans wouldn't be running for the hills on the issue of abortion. But again, no touch. They take the extreme position that will lead to Democrats winning more elections and more pro-choice, more pro-choice justices going on the Supreme Court. It's self-defeating.

Yeah, there may be Republicans like that out there, Joe, but they're not in positions of prominence here in Washington and they're not on the 2024 campaign trail, at least not yet. And instead, you have a party that is continuing to shift to the right and putting itself in extreme positions on issues like abortion, certainly, but also guns and others that is just out of step from where the American people are. And right now, their two leaders, in the primary field anyway, are Trump and DeSantis. And we often see this from Trump, following him so closely for so many years now, where he takes his biggest vulnerability and tries to use it as a weapon against his opponent. And in this case, it's this endorsement with DeSantis, because we're starting to see the broad contours, the beginnings of a DeSantis strategy here. And it's frankly been echoing what you say on the show on a daily basis, where you count down all the losses that Republicans have

taken. And we heard that from DeSantis sort of in a vague way earlier this week, but it caught a lot of attention in the party. And they wonder if that is going to be DeSantis' main argument going forward. And look, he's running to the right of Trump on a lot of issues. That might help you in the GOP primary. That's difficult to sell in a general election, to be sure. But he's trying to make the case that Trump, you know, though not attacking him personally,

but Trump has overseen a culture of losing in the Republican Party and that DeSantis has a chance to win. And they point to some polls to back that up. Now, he's going to have to actually turn up his attacks on Trump. You can't you can't take down the king without actually shooting at him. But they're going to. But this is this. Some people in the party believe that's where DeSantis is eventually starting to go.

And we should hear his announcement of a candidacy maybe as soon as next week. Boy, abortion, I have just got to say abortion has been such a huge issue. I mean, much larger issue than I even expected. I knew the overturning would make a difference. Just nothing. The political earthquake that it is among among Republicans, among people who have called themselves pro-life their entire life, the extreme positions state legislatures are taking, including a six week abortion ban. I guarantee you, Jen's right. That made a big difference in Jacksonville. I want to talk really quickly before we go to break about reading in Mississippi and Alabama. I mean, you know, Mississippi, two states I love, two states I've lived in, two states when I hear we're 49th in this and 50th in

that, I roll my eyes. Did you read about the Mississippi miracle yesterday? That Mississippi's reading scores have shot way up the Alabama miracle. I mean, it's really it's so heartening and maybe offers a roadmap for other areas in states that may be doing better, but where there are pockets of illiteracy to really help reading. It's just such good news for these kids. Very good news. And let's hope that it's a program that can be modeled in other places around the country. And that is something that I love about Mississippi and Alabama. I'll give Alabama credit to the literature culture is so strong and it's our one of our best exports. And I'm glad that for now more children are learning to read. Elise and I both learned to read in Mississippi, right?

Yes, Joe, you probably learned to read in Mississippi. I learned to read in Mississippi. Forgot how to read in Alabama. I'm joking. No, I learned how to read. Yeah, we learned how to read in Mississippi. It was, I've got great memories of Mississippi. I love that state.

Here's the stat, Joe. So Mississippi, which for a long time was ranked second worst in the country in childhood literacy, has moved up to 21st in just a decade. They say a lot of it is early intervention, identifying kids who need the help, using phonics, finding kids and giving them specialized help and getting them to catch up to their classmates sooner. And it's lifted so many kids. It's great news. We emphasize great news out of the South on that. That is such great news, Mika. All right. Still ahead on Morning Joe, President Biden is in Japan. The Yankee doesn't care. Mika cares. No, she doesn't care. She just blows right through it. Well, I'm playing in Northeast. Oh, wait a minute. Thurston Powell. This has been Thurston Howell.

Samika, can I show you? Between the I Dream of Jeannie reference and you bringing up Gilligan's Island, we are dating ourselves. There was one other thing here. So we're going around the curve, right? This is Columbus Circle, right? Oh, that's tough. We're spinning out. I'm in the Subaru, right? Fortunately is Columbus Circle, right? Oh, that's tough. We're spinning out. I'm in the Subaru, right?

Fortunately, this thing stays low to the ground. Yeah. Stays low to the ground. This thing's swerving. It's up on two hills. It's like fast and furious. We actually go around the cob. And pew.

All right. We're up Broadway. Before you know it, we're passing the beacon. It's just beautiful. Still no 911 calls or collisions, though. It's amazing. No, no, I know. We wanted to take it, but it was tension city. Chaotic, but not catastrophic.

It was nearly catastrophic. Is that the quote? Nearly catastrophic? It's my daily life, nearly catastrophic. You say a lot of things. And Mika, did you hear about the good news in Mississippi about kids being able to read better? I did. It's wonderful. It's truly wonderful. You care.

OK, so we're now going to go to a break. But coming up on Morning Joe, President Biden in Japan for the G7 summit while the default deadline looms. Here at home, we'll have where things stand on the ongoing debt ceiling negotiation. Plus, what's next for indicted Congressman George Santos after a resolution to expel the Republican from the House is referred to the Ethics Committee. Also ahead, access to the abortion pill faces a new legal test. We'll have the latest on the case being considered by a federal appeals court. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. 52 past the hour, President Biden touched down in Japan earlier this morning to meet with world leaders at the G7 summit.

But the debt ceiling talks continue to loom over Washington. The latest sticking point for both sides, work requirements for federal aid recipients. Biden said he would not accept, quote, anything of consequence on the Republicans demand. While House Speaker Kevin McCarthy says the issue is his red line. Former Treasury official and Morning Joe economic analyst Steve Ratner is at the big wall with charts explaining this dilemma. Steve, what you got? Well, Mika, we've mostly been talking during this debt ceiling thing about spending cuts and the extent of the spending cuts that the Republicans want. But we should talk for a minute about revenues, particularly because there were some new numbers

that came out yesterday from the Congressional Budget Office that kind of underscore what the Republicans have in mind on revenues. Kevin McCarthy is on record as saying that he wants to extend the Bush, the Trump tax cuts, which are supposed to expire starting in the middle of this decade, but extend them and make them permanent. Let's take a look at what the impact of that would be. So, as I said, they start to expire. And so there's not a lot of revenue loss if you extend them in the first couple of years. But then it jumps up really quickly. And this was all done to conform to a bunch of really arcane budget rules that the Senate and the House have.

But nonetheless, this would cost the Treasury over $400 billion a year starting in 2027, reaching $500 billion a year at the end of the 10-year budget window that we all look at. So this would have a massive increase on the deficit, which you can see over here. The deficit before you do any of this over the next 10 years is going to be $20 trillion. That's trillion with a T. And this provision, extending these tax cuts and making them permanent, would add $3.5 trillion to that deficit. So wait a second, Steve. So you're telling me that Kevin McCarthy is talking about how they need to be fiscally responsible, but they want to add three point five trillion dollars to the debt as part of these negotiations? Not as part of these negotiations. I mentioned this because the CBO yesterday came out with this new score, as we

call it, of what it would cost. But Kevin McCarthy is on record as saying that as and when the Republicans get control of Congress and the White House back, this is what they want to do. Three point five trillion dollars. OK, well, that's sort of inconsistent. Yeah, go ahead. So so what is the TCGA, as we call it, the Trump tax cut? Let's just as a reminder, talk about what extending those tax cuts would mean. So of the total amount of the Trump tax cuts, 54% of that went to people making more than $75,000 a year, 31% went to business, and only 16% of those tax cuts that we now want to extend and make permanent went to people making less than

$75,000 a year. And another way to look at this is what was the impact on people's, what would be the impact on people's after-tax income of making those tax cuts permanent? And this is by income. If you're in the top 1%, which is $700,000 of income or more, your after-tax income would go up by 3.4%. If you're in the next 4% which is from $400,000 to $700,000, your after-tax income would go up by 4.1%. But everybody else, the bottom 80%, none of the bottom 80% on average would see their incomes go up by as much as 2 percent. So these are highly regressive tax cuts that favor the rich that the Republicans want to extend as soon as they get enough control of Congress and the White House to do it.

And what's your next chart? So my next chart gets to the point you were making, Joe, about the actual impact of what the Republicans want to do on the deficit. So if you start here, what they call their limit, save and grow plan, which is what is on the table right now in the White House, which, as we talked about last week, would cut 47 percent of spending from what we call discretionary programs, would save four point eight trillion. But as you pointed out, we give give back $3.5 trillion, and you end up with a deficit reduction of only $1.3 trillion. Yeah, but, you know, Steve, really quickly, that $4.8 trillion,

if people are looking at them, that's not a real number. They're talking about absolutely savaging the government, savaging the ability for the government to do the most basic of things. And you look at what they want to do to the IRS. Yes, the IRS. Here's an agency that's been slashed. The funding for the IRS has been slashed so much that if you as a working class or middle class American have a tax refund coming and you don't get it, good luck getting on the phone, getting the IRS to answer because they don't have many people left to answer the phones. If you do, you're going to be waiting on the phone, getting the IRS to answer because they don't have many people left to answer the phones. If you do, you're going to be waiting on the phone for hours or hours.

If the IRS messes up something and you need to talk to a live human being at the IRS, good luck getting them on the phone. The software is antiquated. Everything is badly outdated. And all they're doing is lying about the IRS, saying they want to go to middle America and kill people with AR-15s. That's what an aging Republican senator has said. But but again, you look at that. That's not even a real number. They're just saying, let's just cut everything that the government does. And it's just absolute insanity. Forty seven percent, Joe, of all those discretionary programs, the Department of Agriculture, Labor, people who make your food and your water safe, all those budgets, 47 percent.

And the real irony on the IRS is that the IRS actually makes the government money. If you cut the IRS budget revenues, actually spending, If you cut the IRS budget, revenues actually spending actually and revenues go down because they're not doing as many audits. They're not policing. And by the way, guess what we can do here? Guess what we can do here? We can go to the grocery store and be pretty darn sure that when we buy groceries, it's not going to poison our kids. We can be pretty sure when we drink water, it's going to be taken care of. In the few cases where that's not the case, it makes national news for months. Look at Flint, Michigan makes national news for months. Because why? Because we have government agencies that make sure that when your children, your family, your parents, your grandparents turn on the faucet, clean water comes out.

The food is fine. When you get on an airplane, when you put your loved ones on an airplane, you know that it's the safest thing that you actually can do. Not only in America, but in the world, because it is so safe. And by the way, Steve, that takes a lot of money. All of this takes money for us to live in the kind of country that we live in right now. And they're talking about slashing food safety. They're talking about slashing air safety. They're talking about slashing the ability of Americans to get their tax refunds back in a timely manner. I mean, there are radical, radical consequences to this number. Thiss back in a timely manner. I mean, there are radical,

radical consequences to this number. This number is never going to pass. This is this is never Congress will never pass this. The president will never sign it. A Republican president would never sign this. I'm just saying they're coming. I can't swear because some kids have woken up. They've come in. They've come to these negotiations with numbers that are rank horse crap. And and they're sitting there with a straight face going, oh, Joe Biden won't cut. But let's let's ramp up the tax, the Trump tax cuts again. So the richest people in America can get richer. Can't argue with any of that, Joe. That is essentially what they're doing. And on top of all that, they don't even make that much of a

difference in the deficit that they claim that they're so worried about. And you can see that out here. So our deficit hit three trillion dollars during the pandemic for lots of good reasons. We had to spend that money. We've got it down to a trillion and a half. It is going to this dotted black line. It's going to continue to go up on its own simply because of increased costs for Social Security, Medicare, things like that. But here's the interesting thing. If you look at the two Republican plans, the just cut spending plan, which is this red line, there's some deficit reduction there. If you look at if you put the tax extensions back in, that deficit reduction almost entirely

goes away. And in fact, this little blue line down here is Biden's plan. He would actually reduce the deficit when you get out to 2020, 2033 by more than the Republicans under any of these plans. And so ironically, they claim that they're the party of fiscal responsibility, but there's not much impact on the deficit when you get done with these tax cuts for the rich. And Biden's plan actually does better than the Republicans. What a shock. Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was. Steve Ratner, you have you have delighted children across America. And I would say because, you know, a million kids across the globe watch him on YouTube. The last Ratner chart potpourri that we had, over a million views on YouTube. Wow. He's an influencer.

He is an influencer. I mean, you got the Kardashians, you got Ratner and his charts. And his makeup videos where he shows people how to put on. Well, you know, the thing is, Steve says getting ready to do charts in the morning on TV shouldn't be hard. And let me show you the three steps I do to make it a lot easier. Accentuate the positives. He's the next Kylie Jenner. A lot of people are saying, well, I would say many people are saying many people are saying many people are saying there's Steve Ratner at the big board. Thank you so much, Steve. We love you. It's so great.

Thank you, Steve. So anyway, let's go to another influencer who is like, if you've ever seen his makeup thing. You know, I really do. I would. I would one day. I would love to show people how I get ready for the show. No, please. We could show how Mika gets ready for the show, which is how a respectful human being we get ready for the show.

And then how I get ready for the show. We move quickly. Yeah. Both of you move very quickly. Get in, get out. Here it is. Turn on the faucet. Stick your head under the faucet. Like towel, brush, and then get stuff that you're supposed to use for like

your arms and just go and that's it. What is it it about a four minute turnaround, honey? I mean, you can see it. There's a price. All right. Don't do that. But I yes, that's the that's four minutes while I've been sitting there for I don't know how long.

So that's the cruelty of TV news for women and men. I think it shows on both of us. You look fabulous. Absolutely fabulous. And so does Michael Steele. But if you've seen his makeup videos on TikTok, you'll know why. So, Michael, they've banned them. You know, I get I ran for Congress because of the deficit I did. I know it sounds so extraordinarily boring because of runaway spending. It's just what it's what I was focused on. And so I paid close attention to it throughout my adult life and begged Republicans, even went on the Hill and

talked to Mark Meadows when he was in the Freedom Caucus. I go, Mark, stop chasing the conspiracy theories. Do what we did. Focus on where you can save taxpayers money. Balance the budget. You know, we balanced the budget four years in a row when I was there. Four years in a row. It can be done. But you look at what these Republicans are doing. I mean, the deficits and the debts exploded in record numbers under Donald Trump.

And what they're proposing now is just pure nonsense. It's just they're posing as small government conservatives. And there hasn't been a small government conservative in a position of authority there well in 20 years. It's a joke. No, easily 20 years. I mean, you're right, Joe. You stop and you think about that moment in which you were in Congress. Even given the fraught political climate that ultimately led to the impeachment of a president and Bill Clinton, you still balanced the nation's budget. You paid its bills. You even reformed some long, sacrosanct institutions like welfare and the social safety net. This idea of getting big things done for the country mattered, even in the midst of political back and forth. That is not where we are now. It's performative BS in large measure.

It is a lot of not even really good smoke in mirrors. And it is sort of setting up these political narratives that basically push agendas that have nothing to do with solving the problem. Now, Republicans are acting like, you know, this is the hill that is the most important for us and is so rooted in who we are as conservatives. But wait a minute. You spent $8 trillion in four years under Donald Trump. You ballooned the nation's debt in such a manner. Oh, and by the way, you had to raise the debt ceiling three times in four years. So, and now you've got this highbrow, sanctimonious, you know, approach to Joe Biden.

Why? Because he's the Democrat in power. So it's not about solving the problem. It is about creating the narrative that will get you the power back. But here's not about solving the problem. It is about creating the narrative that will get you the power back. But here's an interesting little thing. Joe, do you really think people are that tied into this discussion about the debt and the deficit? They don't care the way they once were. No, no. And that's the thing, Michael. I mean, something that's always, you know, always been frustrating to me is, you know, I've written like 18 books. It's the same book. Actually, maybe it was three on on deficits, debt, the Republicans needing to become conservative again, responsible. And, you know, you sit there talking about it. Oh, we love that. Tell us what was Newt Gingrich really like?

What was Bill Clinton really like? People just they don't they don't focus on this stuff. Unfortunately, nerds like I do. And and, you know, Donald Trump, you talk these these people right now that are negotiating along with Donald Trump, raise the national debt more in four years than every president from George Washington through Bill Clinton raised the debt over the course of over 200 years. From George Washington to the beginning of George W. Bush's administration, they raised the debt more in four years. These Republicans who are now being self-righteous about it, it's maddening. Michael Steele, as always, thank you so much. Go to Michael Stee Still's TikTok page. You can see how you too can get your makeup looking fresh and clean in less than five minutes.