Morning Joe - Morning Joe 5/20/24

Episode Date: May 20, 2024

Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi dead in helicopter crash

President Biden and President Trump have agreed to two debates this summer for a preview of the debates take a bottle of Ambien and Adderall at the same time. Biden posted a video challenging Trump to the debate saying, make my day, pal, to which Trump responded, let's get ready to rumble. Two phrases that are guaranteed to lock up the youth vote. Donald Trump said that at the debates he wants both of them to stand instead of sit. So that's the status of our presidency. Standing is a feat of strength. I think we can learn a lot more watching them both try to get out of a beanbag chair. Now that would be a good one.

As the presidential candidates prepare to debate next month, Donald Trump's hush money trial, the criminal trial, resumes today in New York City. We're going to have expert legal analysis on the case so far and a preview of what could be the final week in court. Plus, we'll have some of the highlights from President Biden's commencement speech at Morehouse College, where he attempted to thread the needle on several issues connected to his reelection campaign. Also ahead, we'll recap a wild weekend at the PGA Championship with new details about the arrest of Scotty Scheffler. That was incredible. We'll show you the dramatic final putt to win the major tournament. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe.

It's Monday, May 20th. With us, we have the host of Way Too Early, White House spirit chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, President Emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass, columnist and associate editor for The Washington Post, David Ignatius, is with us. And former Supreme Allied commander of NATO, retired four-star Navy Admiral James Tafridis. He's chief international analyst for NBC News. And we have this incredible panel because there is major breaking news that happened overnight. Iranian state media is reporting that the nation's President Raisi and the country's foreign minister have died in a helicopter crash. Search teams arrived at the site of what was originally called a hard landing and found no sign of life.

According to a news outlet affiliated with the Iranian government, seven other officials were on board the aircraft at the time of the accident. The Associated Press cites Iranian state TV as giving no immediate cause for the collision, although weather could be a factor. The group was returning from an event near Iran's border with Azerbaijan when the helicopter crashed. Heavy fog prevented search and rescue teams from finding the wreckage for hours. A hardline conservative within the Iranian political landscape, Rahisi had been Iran's president since 2021. David Ignatius, your thoughts and concerns given this breaking news. So, Mika, at a time when there's war and instability across the Middle East, this adds one more element.

It's unlikely to mean any sharp change in Iranian policy. The true leader is the Supreme Leader, Ali Khamenei. He remains in charge, but he's 85. And Raisi, the president, was widely seen as the most likely successor to him. So this creates a kind of succession quandary for Iran. In the immediate future, the current vice president, whose name is Mohammed Makhber, will become interim president. In effect, elections will be declared 50 days from now. In theory, we'll have a new Iranian president. That person isn't likely to be fundamentally different in terms of policies. This is a regime that moves in step. But in terms of the future after Ayatollah Khamenei,

this is an interesting development. There's talk that Khamenei's own son, Moshe Tovar, might be a leading candidate. He's said to be favored by the IRGC. I just know one other interesting phenomenon here. Even as Iran has been deepening its confrontation with Israel, firing 100 ballistic missiles and more than 200 drones in April, none of which were successful, it's been trying to open more of a dialogue with the United States. Last week, an Iranian foreign ministry official met with Brett McGurk, our top NSC Middle East person in Oman, to talk about issues of mutual concern. At the time of that missile strike, the Iranians made an effort to contact the U.S. through the

Swiss embassy, exchange messages, understand exactly who would do what. So I think we're heading into a period where, as Khamenei himself said, there'll be no disruption in Iranian policy. But think about it. You've got uncertainty in Iran. You've got uncertainty in Israel. You now have almost an open contest for future leadership of Israel. And you've got an American presidential election, you couldn't have a more unstable mix of factors over the Middle East at this most dangerous time.

Joe. And certainly, Admiral, we've heard about the dangers, the great dangers that we've been facing in the region, obviously, since October 7th and certainly with Iran. I will say, though, it's fascinating hearing what David said regarding Iran's contacts with the Swiss embassy. I heard the same thing, and I'm sure you did, too. After the killing of Soleimani, the Iranians fired some missiles at U.S. targets and then immediately told people in the region, please get back to the United States. That's it. We had to show some force for domestic consumption. You, of course, had the United States warning Iran back channel about an imminent attack, a terror attack a few months ago. Things are not always as cut and dry as they appear. And I'd just love for

you to go through your decades of experience dealing in the region, dealing with Iran, directly or indirectly, and give us your best read on where we go from here. The only thing I know for sure is that the vice president of the United States will not be going to Tehran to attend this particular funeral. There's certainly no love lost between our two countries. But I think, Joe, you and David are right to highlight two aspects of this that jump out at me. Number one, the presidency of Iran, which will have to be filled and will be filled, is not the prize here. The prize is who is the next supreme leader. Khamenei, the current incumbent, has cancer, mid-80s. Certainly, that's going to come sooner rather than later. I'd put my money on his son more than

anybody else, but nobody knows the answer to that question. And that's going to drive a lot of internal maneuver in politics. And oh, by the way, if we think here in the United States, we're prone to conspiracy theory. Certainly Iran, its populace is prone to it, starved of actual information. Look for conspiracy theories that will pop up about who might have manufactured this. Was Israel involved? Was the CIA part of this? The answer to all those questions are almost certainly no.

Bad weather, probably bad maintenance, probably bad airmanship is what caused this. But the second big thing here, and again, you alluded to it a moment ago, is that Iran does not want this to explode into a wider regional war. This is the last thing they would want now while they're in the midst of their version of Game of Thrones here. So look for the Iranians to send signals to the United States, potentially to other actors in the region. They're close in the Arab world with Qatar, relatively. So look for them to signal, look, let us alone right now. We've got to sort this out. Now's not the time for anyone to take advantage. And Richard, following up on that, obviously, this president died at a time when he'd been facing domestic unrest. Also, economically, Iran's been struggling. We can look back over

the past 10, 15 years and see that Iran is divided. You sort of have red state Iran, blue state Iran, in that the urban center is far different than rural Iran. This is a country divided, trying to figure out its way forward. It would seem to me the last thing they would want to do is begin a regional war. They got a lot on their plate. I agree. Let's say a few things, because I think both the Admiral and Davy got it exactly right. One is Raisi's legacy is not real impressive, Joe, and it gets at what you were saying. What was it about? It was about repression. He leaves a more divided society and real economic mismanagement. The currency is much weaker and so forth. That's essentially what he's done. I think the fact that he's out of the running because he's dead for the Supreme Leader is

interesting because it does go to his son. It does go to Khamenei's son. Then it raises real question of hereditary processes here. And the question is, does that detract from the legitimacy of the Supreme Leader? So I think the death of the president has almost no impact in the short run because the president doesn't have a lot of authority over the things we would talk about on the show, national security and so forth. It's more of a domestic role. The real question is, what implications does it have for the long term legitimacy of the regime? And it gets at the splits within the society. My own guess, though, is this regime probably has, unfortunately, more staying power or continuity than any of us would like to see. Yeah, no doubt about that. David Ignatius,

so following up, I think, fascinating insight by Richard when he's talking about how if being the supreme leader of Iran is more hereditary, that further weakens, at least in the eyes of Shia in that region, the standing of at least religiously leadership in Iran compared to Sistani, who's still in Iraq, who still really is seen as the supreme Shiite leader. And this sort of hereditary pass down would, I think, possibly even weaken Iran's ultimate influence in Iraq. So, Joe, to me, Raisi, the president now dead, was a symbol of a regime that in many ways is running out of gas. He was not a distinguished cleric. He wasn't somebody

whose religious views were taken seriously. He was the enforcer. He was a judge. He was the person who when Ayatollah Khomeini wanted to clean up in the late 80s, was assigned the job judge of basically being the hanging judge and is said to have executed, sent to the execution more than a thousand people. enhance or expand that revolution. And during his time as president, we saw young Iranians just an explosion of celebrating personal freedom, women taking off their headscarves, throwing them away, risking at least for some some weeks and months being arrested. For a long time, the regime couldn't get that back under control. So as a Western diplomat has said to me once, you need to think of Iran as being on a one-way street. That street is toward the end of the regime. How fast it will go down that street, hard to tell. It could be many, many years. They're still very powerful. But there's no sign of this regime really rehabilitating itself in the eyes of its people.

Raisi was not a charismatic person. And there's little likelihood that the successors who come into place now will be any more so. The White House, of course, carefully watching developments unfold here. It was about a 12-hour or so search before these rescue crews found the helicopter, downed helicopter, no signs of life. And those that I spoke to in the last 24 hours or so, really concerned that Iran would try to point the fingers elsewhere for this crash, namely at Israel, suggesting that they'd rather push this conspiracy,

that someone else did this rather than accept fault, that they couldn't protect their own president, that it was just simply a crash. That, to this point, has not happened in any real way. Doesn't mean, of course, that could not change in the days ahead. In a particularly unstable region, also, U.S. officials tell me they're watching what, if any, response might be from some of Iran's proxies groups, Hezbollah and the like, if they try to use this as some sort of impetus to spark further violence at a time of real war in Gaza, at a time when the world is watching

to see when Israel's push into Rafah might begin, but at least to this point, relatively calm. But if this, Mika, the helicopter has only been recovered in the last few hours, U.S. officials speaking to allies in the region to try to get a sense of stability there. Let's bring in NBC News chief foreign correspondent Richard Engel and NBC News chief international correspondent Keir Simmons. He's in the Gulf region this morning. Richard, Richard, we'll start with you, your analysis. And are you hearing any reaction from the region? So we've already heard quite a bit of reaction from Hezbollah, from other groups. They are not at this stage blaming Israel,

blaming the United States. They're expressing their condolences. And going back to the issue that you were just talking about, the future of Iran, what this means for the Supreme Leader, they're praising the Supreme Leader. They're praising the theocracy. They're saying our loyalty, yes, we respect our condolences for the loss of this man, but our loyalty remains to the system of clerical rule in Iran. And I think that's what this death really highlights. Iran has a succession crisis right now because it's not that he was openly tapped to become the next Supreme Leader, but that's the way things were heading.

There were only two names that were ever mentioned. Raisi, the president, as the potential next Supreme Leader. The Supreme Leader himself is about 85 years old right now. Raisi, who just died, only 63. So if he had come to power, he would likely have been in power for two decades or so. So his death is a profound moment. The other name that was ever mentioned is Moshtaba, the son of the Supreme Leader. Now, the fact that Raisi died in a helicopter crash, in fog. No, at this stage, evidence or really any accusations that that there was other that foul play was a factor more than foul weather. But still, if the Supreme Leader

now tries to appoint his son or the people around him trying to appoint his son after the previous president and the person who was going to get that job died in a helicopter crash. I think it would look suspicious. So I think there is there was a succession crisis. And I think it has a potentially an opportunity for the security establishment there, the Revolutionary Guard to assert more and more control. Potentially, this is a moment like Boris Yeltsin Putin, where you have Boris Yeltsin, who was no longer able to to to sort of rule the country and someone from the unknown, non charismatic apparatchik from the security establishment intelligence service

rises up and takes over and transforms the state. That that could be. We'll see if we head in that direction. We'll certainly be watching NBC's Richard Engel. Thank you very much, David. So I want to go, if we could, to Keir Simmons, who is in the Gulf. And Keir, I would ask you to help us understand what impact this death of an Iranian president will have on regimes in the region immediately? How will they perceive it? What difference will it make for them as they think about an Iran that for most of them is their biggest threat?

Yeah, I mean, I think the way that you guys have framed it this morning effectively you know add to the dizzying countervailing forces in this region right now uncertainty in Iran now the first vice president who is now taking over as president he went to Russia in October and did a deal which then supplied Russia with more weapons, more Iranian weapons. And in fact, President Putin today talking about what a great leader President Raisi was, President Xi of China talking about him as a friend. So the partners of Iran are out already sending their condolences. Other countries on the fence also sending condolences.

Many countries from here in the Gulf and in the Middle East sending messages because you do in circumstances like this. I think we're into the law of unintended consequences in terms of what it means for Iran's foreign policy. Domestically, let's not forget that President Raisi is the leader who presided over the crushing of protests in 2022, women's rights protests after the death of Masa Amini. Let's not forget that he was leading Iran just last month, of course,

when Iran fired those missiles towards Israel. Will there be changes in terms of the domestic or the foreign policy? Perhaps not. But then we just don't know. And it's a, you know, kind of symbolizes it really paints a picture of how quickly this region changes, that this is all happening just as Jake Sullivan has just left Saudi Arabia and then Israel, trying as best he can to push a program of stability, if you want to call it, a proposal of stability, which we know involves what's been described as a mega deal with Saudi Arabia, a security deal, a civil nuclear deal, a trade deal, and at the same time normalization with Israel, and at the same time a two-state solution for

Palestinians. Incredibly difficult to achieve. Gets harder and harder, it seems, as the politics of the region unfolds, and of course because of the war in Gaza, and very, very difficult because of the kind of congressional politics there in the US and the fact that an election is coming. Just take the question of a civil nuclear deal with Saudi Arabia. That would have to be passed through the House and the Senate. So and then we haven't even mentioned the feud between Benny Gantz and Benjamin Netanyahu that spilled out into the open just 24 hours or so before all of this happened. And now we're talking about about Iran. That's why it is so difficult in

this region, particularly right now. NBC's Keir Simmons, thank you so much. Greatly appreciated as always. And Admiral, Keir actually set up what I was going to ask you about. First of all, let's look at the three things that happened yesterday. Iran's president, foreign minister killed in a helicopter crash. Jake Sullivan talking to the Saudis about a wide ranging security deal. And Benny Nance telling Benjamin Netanyahu, you have no plan. If you don't come up with a plan in the next three weeks, I'm taking this coalition government down, which, of course, would then force Netanyahu to go even further to the right. All three of those things happened yesterday.

So I ask you, how does this all play into Israel and future operations in Gaza? Let's start with Benny Gantz. I think that in many ways is the most quickly moving kind of event here. And that's because General Benny Gantz, who I know very well from his days running the IDF when I was running U.S. European Command and we worked together on many, many security deals. He's quite serious. He's a very steady pair of hands in the context of Israeli politics. He's a centrist. He will come through with what he has said to Benjamin Netanyahu, meaning Netanyahu is going to, my view, have to create some kind of post-strife plan.

Benny doesn't quite have all of the votes to absolutely force a collapse of the government, but he's pretty close and a centrist figure. So that one politically, I think, is top of the watch list. Joe, what happens with that in Israel? And then second and finally, you know, the admiral is going to say this. What I've been watching is the sea. As I watch what's behind Keir Simmons a moment ago, two maritime thoughts occur to me. One good, one bad. The bad one is that this is going to mean a continuation of the

attacks in the Red Sea. Somehow the Houthis will amp this up and continue that. And then secondly, a good thing, maybe to close on this, the pier is open. The one the United States built, maritime miracle, 150 truckloads a day. It's a real push by the United States on the humanitarian side. So as you said, Joe, so many moving parts here. I'm watching Benny Gantz for the next chapter in the ongoing Israeli internal domestic political theater. Retired Admiral James Tavridis, thank you very much for your insights this morning, as always. Thank you. And we're going to have much more on the breaking news with Richard Haass and David Ignatius just ahead. Also coming up on Morning Joe, Michael Cohen

will take the stand this morning for his third day of testimony in Donald Trump's criminal hush money trial. We'll have a preview of what to expect as the proceedings begin to wrap up. You're watching Morning Joe. We're back in 90 seconds. What a beautiful shot of New York City, the surrounding area, 624. Just absolutely gorgeous May morning in New York, and Alex obviously pushing the chopper four button instead of the seven-second delay button, this time working for the cause in a positive way.

You know, Richard, but for the news out of the Middle East, we would have started by talking about, really, it is an extraordinary day of sports. Pablo is going to be coming up in the next 15, 20 minutes. I wanted to give you a chance to do what a lot of New York Knicks fans have been doing over the past 12 hours or so, and just tipping their hat to an extraordinary effort by an extraordinary team and man. And speaking of extraordinary, what happened out west with the Timberwolves coming back last night, then the PGA. I mean, yesterday was packed.

I mean, we're not even talking about the Red Sox for the first time in about 30 years putting two hits together back to back and winning a game. It was an extraordinary day. Look, the Knicks, no shame, Joe. They just ran out of gas, literally broken bodies and broken hands for Jalen Brunson. And they just couldn't keep up. And Indiana moved to a much more physical game. The Knicks couldn't defend against it. Plus, Indiana set records for shooting. I think they made two-thirds of their shots yesterday, better than two-thirds. But look, the Knicks had a great run.

They've got a great core if they can keep them together. And as someone once said in baseball, there's always next year. But I don't think any New Yorker feels anything, but it's been a great season. And they went as far as they could have gone. And what can you say about Indiana coming in, playing it? I think one of the most anticipated sporting events in New York in years, and just absolutely just shooting the lights out, doing an extraordinary job. And Jonathan Lemire, not only that,

but then what happened in Denver later in the evening. Yeah, I mean, the Pacers rose to the moment, no doubt here. I agree with Richard. Knicks fans are looking back upon this team very fondly. They just ran out of gas. Brunson getting hurt in some ways is sadly fitting in to a team that just completely broke down at the end. And they couldn't play defense yesterday, and Indiana couldn't miss and then last night i know we'll talk more about a little bit

stunning uh that denver had a 15 point halftime lead the defending champions who nicole yoka jamal murray doing whatever they wanted and it looked like it was going to be a denver route and maybe on their way to back-to-back title. Instead, Minnesota comes back with the biggest halftime Game 7 comeback ever and played just unbelievable lockdown defense. They turned up their offense and they just smothered the Nuggets. And now an unlikely Final Four of Minnesota, Dallas, Indiana, and yes, the Boston Celtics. And unfortunately,

we did just have to see a clip of Alex Rodriguez cheering excitedly as he is attempting to be part of the Minnesota Timberwolves ownership group. Wow. All right. It was we just didn't have enough time for sports. We will get back to it with Pablo coming up. But we must get on to the news. The Trump criminal hush money trial will resume this morning for what could be the final day of testimony. Michael Cohen is set to return to the stand for a third day of cross-examination. Former President Trump's legal team has said this will be its final day questioning him. The prosecution has already confirmed Cohen is its final witness and will likely rest its case after his testimony is complete. The defense focused much of Thursday's cross-examination on a key 2016 call

where Cohen previously said he spoke directly to the former president about his hush money payments to Stormy Daniels. Trump lawyer Todd Blanche pressed Cohen on that conversation, bringing up a text exchange he had with Trump's bodyguard right before the call that seemed to suggest the topic was about a prank caller, not Stormy Daniels. Cohen insisted he spoke about both things despite the call's short length. The other big question is if Donald Trump takes the stand. Last week, lawyers for the former president said they were still unsure if Trump would testify, even though he has said publicly he would like to. Trump's legal team also said they may not call any other

witnesses. Judge Mershon told both sides to be ready for closing arguments as early as tomorrow if the prosecution and the defense rest. Let's go to the courthouse and bring in former litigator and MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin. Lisa, do you expect things to wrap up or a surprise Trump witness on the stand? I'm not sure that I expect Donald Trump to testify, but it's also possible that we could get other witnesses, including witnesses that we haven't necessarily foreseen. That's because if the defense feels it necessary to rebut Michael Cohen, they might put some other people on the stand that they think can demonstrate that his account of the narrative here is not true.

We have other media outlets reporting last week that one of those witnesses could be Bob Costello, who is best known perhaps as Rudy Giuliani's close friend and former lawyer. He's also represented Steve Bannon. But in this context, what Costello has to offer is that he tried to represent Michael Cohen, who strung him along for a series of months. In their exchanges, Cohen says Costello essentially dangled a pardon to him and offered to be a back channel to the Trump White House before Michael Cohen decided, you know what, I'm not going in this direction. Costello has publicly said, including in congressional testimony as recently

as last week, that everything Michael Cohen has to say is a lie. In fact, he was a witness for the defense before the grand jury. That's a unique feature of New York law, where the defense can call its own witnesses to the grand jury. And indeed, Robert Costello was their only witness last year before the indictment came down. So one thing I'm looking for today is not so much whether Trump's going to take the stand, which I think is increasingly unlikely, but whether we see Bob Costello do the same. You know, as you will always say, Lisa, you never know how a jury is going to land on something. But since we've had the weekend so far, how has the defense been able to damage or undermine Michael Cohen's testimony in a real and substantial way?

Well, you know, Mika, a lot of the things that they have used to try and undermine Michael Cohen's credibility are sort of sophisticated, complex stories. And it's not clear that the jury completely understands them. I'll give you one example. Michael Cohen pled guilty in 2018, yes, to campaign finance charges, but also to tax evasion that had nothing to do with Donald Trump. And since then, he has told a variety of different stories about why he pled guilty to tax evasion, testifying last fall, for example, at Trump's civil fraud trial that he lied when he said under oath that he was guilty of tax evasion. On the stand in this case, on the other hand, he took a different tact.

He said he wasn't quibbling with the underlying facts, but rather the process by which that plea was extracted from him. Todd Blanch spent a lot of time with respect to those three differing stories, but it's not clear that it was as intelligible to a jury hearing it for the first time as it was, for example, to you or me, people who have followed this drama very closely. But they've also spent some time, as you noted in your opening, with respect to the texts, right? And particularly this call that Michael Cohen says that he had with Keith Schiller, using Keith Schiller to sort of pass through the phone to Donald Trump. He says that October 24th phone call was an opportunity for

him to get the boss's approval on the Stormy Daniels payment. It really is of no moment whether that was the phone call or not, because the records that are already in the case show that two days later, Michael Cohen and Donald Trump spoke themselves directly. So it's not clear whether this is landing or not. Let's see how Todd Blanchett uses the remainder of his time today. All right. MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin at the courthouse. Thank you so much. We'll be watching.

And coming up on Morning Joe, as we said, ESPN's Pablo Torre will join us to go over the big weekend in sports, including the pair of game sevens in the NBA playoffs and yesterday's thrilling finish at the PGA Championship. Plus, Roger Bennett will be here to talk about Manchester City's historic Premier League title. Morning Joe is coming right back. This is the moment you dream of as a kid. You've practiced it as a kid thousands and thousands of times, telling yourself it was for this very occasion to win it all. Sanders with victory at Valhalla. Zander!

With victory at Valhalla! That was Zander Shoffley winning his first major title with that birdie putt on the final hole of the PGA Championship in Louisville yesterday. Likely Louisville's last major tournament after what happened on Friday. But his victory was perhaps overshadowed by the events that did break during our show on Friday when the top-ranked player in the world, Scotty Scheffler, was arrested after allegedly dragging a police officer with his car trying to get to work. Scheffler, who was released in time to tee off a few hours later, now faces charges including felony assault of a police officer over what he calls a, quote, misunderstanding. Let's bring in the host of Pablo Tori finds out.

Metal Art Media's ESPN top Pablo Tori. Pablo, we have so much to talk about. I guess we should just let's start here. But first of all, a couple of interesting things over the weekend about that Friday morning arrest. Unbelievably, the body cam. Yeah, no body cam turned on. Officer Kazmiki kept saying, well, let's wait till we see the footage from the cop's body cam. Miraculously, not on. Secondly, they write in the

police report this felony was charged in part because, quote, the police officer's trousers were damaged beyond repair. Beyond repair. I hope that's right. I hope they enjoyed it. I hope they enjoyed it because I suspect PJ will not be going back to Louisville for quite some time. But let's talk about the tournament itself. Feel free to talk about Friday if you wish. Oh, yeah. I mean, quite an ending. Yeah, there's a lot. I mean, so let's start with the beginning on Friday first before we get to the ending, because just I just want to make clear, this is not where I envision talking about police misconduct, the PGA with you, Joe. And it's not the thing that I'm going to shed the most tears over in that broad macro perspective. Right. But this was absurd. And although the body cam was off, unsurprisingly, in retrospect,

there was a van full of sports, excuse me, a van full of ESPN reporters right behind that talked to Sports Illustrated, talked to everybody else in the world and said, we didn't see it. We didn't see the alleged dragging of the police officer. It seemed like a guy who did not know. And this is not a sin because I don't think any of us picked Scotty Scheffler to be one of the faces you would recognize in golf, as good as he is. But the guy didn't recognize him going to work. And so the reports are now that on Tuesday, tomorrow, the charges will be dropped. And that's appropriate.

This was ridiculous. I do think it means that Louisville will not host the PGA anytime soon. But what it does also is overshadow what happened, of course, at the end, which you foreshadowed for us, which is that what a tremendous win for Xander Shoffley. And for those who don't know Xander Shoffley either, because these are not Tiger and Rory. These are names that I think America may still be getting used to. Xander Shoffley was a guy who had not won a major. And so when you don't win a major, the question goes from when will you win a major to can you win a major? And what he did against Bryson DeChambeau in this final, winning on a walk-off birdie, basically,

is a dramatic announcement of like, by the way, please take me seriously. Recognize me when I pull up to the driveway next time at the next major that I play at. Yeah, of course, it didn't help the Masters winner. But, yeah, perhaps this will help Xander. You know, Richard, I'm Richard Haas. I'm looking at your contract, even though we have Pablo here. I am required to ask you, since you're the self-appointed Roger Bennett from Morning Joe at PGA Golf, your take on what happened yesterday. Quite a dramatic finish. It was dramatic.

I thought, you know, Bryson DeChambeau played the best golf of his career. You know, almost almost won it. Xander Schauffele, I think, got rid of the demons that he couldn't end strong in a tournament. Scheffler, you take out the one round, he had his letdown not on Friday, the day of the arrest, but on Saturday. His first over par round since I don't know when, but his other three rounds were fantastic. He still had a top 10 finish. One thing about Shuffler, I got to say, Joe, I've never heard this before. So he's in jail. He's waiting. And what does he do? He get on Friday morning, he starts doing all of his

exercises. He does his stretching, his pre-round routine on the floor of the prison cell. And that is a first. I've heard of pre-shot routines. I've never quite heard of a pre-round routine in prison. Went out, had a great round after that. And not a bad tournament. Let's turn from golf to basketball. You know, a couple of confessions here, Pablo. Number one, I just haven't, I think I've told you before, I've just, I've been disconnected from the NBA for quite a few years. My son keeps telling me, you know, I totally miss the Golden State, Golden Era, despite the fact my oldest son just frantic to get me

to see the magic that Kerr was doing out there and just been focused on college basketball. But, man, this year just pulled me in. Second confession, I'm not really a live event guy unless it's baseball. Usually you can see more on TV. I don't need to tell anybody I was there, but I will tell you all my friends that were going to these Knicks games said nothing like it.

And the fact that a team from Indiana came into Madison Square Garden in the biggest event, the biggest event in New York sports history in such a long time and did what they did. Nothing short of incredible. Yeah. Decades, Joe, decades. In 73, Knicks fans have been waiting for a moment like this. And I want to not bury the lead because I come on here all the time and I talk about the Knicks, and we should because of all the reasons you just alluded to, but the Indiana Pacers shot better in an NBA playoff game than any team ever has, okay? 67%. If you slept through this game somehow, you missed the team basically

do whatever they wanted in a building that is famed for its hostility famed for its own mystique and aura to paraphrase kurt schilling an increasingly strange person to paraphrase but he said that by yankee stadium once it's appropriate about msg or so we thought so the indiana pacers joe when you watch this team again not a bunch of guys that you would know immediately, but Tyrese Halliburton is the name I want to flag for you because this is a new villain that New York City has. He wasn't quite Reggie Miller, but he was the sort of guy to point at some fans, some poor soul courtside, and basically use him as the inspiration to lead a team that, again, made pretty much every shot that they took. And, John, it's just a remarkable thing to watch this Pacers team

now suddenly be in an Eastern Conference finals. After the game, Tyrese Halliburton put on a hoodie with Reggie Miller's picture on it with Miller famously doing the choke sign. So he was definitely channeling the Indiana villain there. Yes, Pacers-Celtics. I think it'll be a pretty good series coming up next. But let's get you in on the, even in some ways more surprising than Indiana walking into MSG and routing because

the Knicks were so depleted. They simply ran out of gas. Yes. Last night, the Denver Nuggets are defending champions. Nikola Jokic, the best player in the world, three-time MVP. They built a 15 point lead at halftime. I know that's when I turned it off. And then, wow, Minnesota comes back. Less from Anthony Edwards this time around. It was a lot of McCarthy Towns. Some offense, yes, but it was about smothering defense. Yeah, this is the best defense in the NBA by far, the Minnesota Timberwolves. And I've come onto this program as well, and I've tried to tell you guys I've been laughed at recently. I'm not naming names of who laughed at me specifically. Telling me to give up Joe Scarborough, the Minnesota Timberwolves bandwagon here. Here's A-Rod.

But, yes, there's a fascinating story about who owns this team. I covered it on my show, actually. There's a whole billionaire battle behind the scenes. But out in front, on stage, was the best defense in the NBA and the most exciting team in the NBA. And I believe, with all due respect to John Lemire's Boston Celtics, the best defense in the NBA and the most exciting team in the NBA. And I believe, with all due respect to John Lemire's Boston Celtics, the best team in the NBA. And to do this against the Denver Nuggets, the defending champions at home in Game 7, making the largest comeback, as John alluded to, in NBA history,

it was a remarkable thing. They shut down the MVP, the three-time MVP. And what the Timberwolves did was tell everybody, you may recall us vaguely as the worst team in NBA history, which is true. Lowest winning percentage in the history of the sport. And now they're going to the Western Conference Finals on a, on a, I think, I think this is true, a preemptive parade route driven by Anthony Edwards, who is going to host SNL one day.

I'll just call that out, too. The guy is so charismatic, and he makes unlikable people around him. Carl Anthony Towns, Rudy Gobert, he makes them likable, which is a skill I think everybody should and can appreciate. Yeah, since you coughed my name in vain, all I will tell you, Pablo, is that when I pick a team and they're one in six, like the Detroit Lions, I stay with them. And when somebody challenges me, I'm not like you.

I don't fold like a rusty lawn chair. Because you said, I thought, I guess I'm wrong. You know what? Courage of your convictions, man. Courage of your convictions. Lesson learned at this table. Yeah, lesson learned. But you did talk about the Timberwolves early on.

I've got to say, I was shocked. I really thought Denver would figure out a way. Yeah, figure out a way to do it. So, man, some great basketball ahead of us. Pablo, thank you so much. Can't wait to see you again, hopefully in the next couple days. Yes. Do you have something to hold up there?

You look like you're about to hold up. I was just going to hold up that this is my psychological breaking point as well. Not just the Knicks. Being called out by Joe Scarborough for not loving Minnesota enough is a strange thing I've gotten to in my life. But that's how I feel also. It's called courage of your convictions, my man. You're our favorite.

Thank you so much, Pablo. Come back soon. Turning now to the Premier League soccer and an unprecedented fourth consecutive title for Manchester City. Let's see how many times Roger Bennett can say Petro dollars in a sentence. Let's bring in right now NBC sports soccer analyst, founder of Men in Blazers media network, Roger Bennett. Roger, of course, I was not seeing Man City hoist the trophy.

The fourth, what I was watching instead was Anfield's farewell to Jurgen Klopp. Very, very moving. And as always, he laughed as he came with extraordinary grace, leading chance for his successor. Yeah, it was like a Viking funeral, a boat leaving the stadium, an archer flame off into the River Mersey and into the memory to Valhalla. We will get to that. But let's talk about the Premier League final weekend, which hit as hard as Alexander Youssef.

The culmination of 282 days spent watching 380 games, dreaming, marvelling, self-loathing a little bit. And it all came down to a two-horse race. LA Rams owner Stan Kroenke and his perpetually aspiring but never quite there Arsenal, Sisyphus and Cleats and Abu Dhabi own Manchester City looking for the 4P in North London.

Arsenal played Everton, footballing Milhouse. Premier League disaster, able to conjure a 2-1 win. This was a pick of the goals. Tommy Yasu, who was hoping that Ricky Bobby's creed from Talladega Knights, if you ain't first, you're last, would not hold out to be. But we had to go to Manchester

and defending champions, Manchester City. They needed just 75 seconds, 75 seconds of deep suspense before Phil Foden unleashed a bolt that was like a Death Star. A super laser powered by hypermatter straight into the corner. It was 2-0 by the time that West Ham woke up. West Ham, honestly, in this one, they were worse than Harris and Buckter. Mohamed Koudas, though, made things interesting with this overhead kick.

Look at this, America. It's like Simone Biles doing football. But Manchester City, ultimately, cruise 3-1, made history. First team in 135 years of English men's league football. That's how long Mika thinks I've been coming on this show to talk about soccer four consecutive top flight titles back to back to back to back I have to mention there's currently

115 charges for alleged breaches of financial regulation so what we watch demands cognitive dissonance but it is still remarkable to watch this team look at that man he's chat GTP and cleats remarkable they are a soul-crushing, killing machine, and they've done something that no one has done before. But in slightly more human, deeply emotional scenes, Joe, you mentioned it, your manager, Jurgen Klopp, managed his last game at Liverpool after nearly nine seasons,

that delivered seven major trophies, made him a club legend, a city legend. And I honestly, even I, who are hardly human, have not been so emotional over a boss who wasn't actually mine since Michael Scott left the office. This was less a game of football. It was a living weight, Joe. You must have shed a tear.

Tears, hugs for this deeply empathetic master motivator who's given fans a journey of a lifetime full of memories and moments, human truths. He won the set in a game which he wasn't meant to win. And then he did. He said, if we fail, then let's fail in the most beautiful way. Joe, these are human truths to live by. You'll never lose them, even though he's gone and now his watch has ended.

Well, I remember at the beginning when he first came to Liverpool, even draws, he knew that if he drew against a bad squad, he still had to make the fans believe. And he acted like he just won the Champions League final. I remember early on also him actually yelling at the fans when they started to leave the exit and at press conference afterwards. He goes, you want us to fight for 90 minutes? You fight for 90 minutes. You stay there in your seats and you cheer for us to the very end

or don't come at all. We don't want to see you in the stands. And I will tell you there was a bonding early on. They knew this guy was special. The players knew he was special. I want a little housekeeping here. You saying nice things about Klopp, people don't understand. That would be like me saying something nice about an Auburn coach.

You are an Evertonian. Last year, you guys barely survived. This year, a little more comfortable. Tell us who's coming up. We've got Leeds, right? Leeds United, always an exciting team. Leeds United are one game away from coming out. Ipswich are like a bunch of farmers who've decided to play football.

And then Leicester City, who are a wonderful team, slightly dodgy financially, but that's why we love them. I mean, this man, we do need to say, America, it's like if Phil Jackson, Steve Kerr, and Greg Popovich all had a bastard German offspring. He really is remarkable. John Oliver comes on our show, and he said this week, he said that it's less the trophies that he'll remember,

it's more the memories, the collective memories, which he'll have for his whole life. He called them tattoos on his soul. And ultimately, I'm only telling you this because whether you care about football or you don't care about football, the memories are what are important. And I think Jurgen Klopp, Joe,

gave you and all Liverpool fans so very much of it. Yeah, my children, myself, incredible memories. And I can only say that Mika and I are both very excited about seeing Ipswich Town next year in the Premier League playing football with pitchforks and hoes. That's going to be very exciting. The farmer, the farmer players, it's going to be very exciting. You've got 90 days until it all starts again. Godspeed. Thank you so much. I can't wait. All right. OK, Roger, thank you very, very much. And still ahead on Morning Joe, we're going to bring you more on the breaking news out of Iran,

where Iran's president and foreign minister were killed in a helicopter crash. Plus, David Leonhard of The New York Times will join us to explain why he says these years have been arguably the most productive period of Washington bipartisanship in decades. I'm going to end that with a question mark. Also ahead, we'll speak with Acting Secretary of Labor Julie Hsu about the state of the economy. Morning Joe will be right back. It is the top of the hour. Look at that shot. Welcome back to Morning Joe. It's Monday, May 20th. Jonathan Lemire, Richard Haass and David Ignatius are still with us. And we are, yes, it is.

We're following the breaking news. Iranian state-run media is reporting the country's president and foreign minister have both been killed in a helicopter crash. It happened in a foggy, mountainous region in the northwest part of Iran. There were nine people on board at the time, leaving no survivors. Iran's first vice president is now the acting president. The country's cabinet has also appointed a new foreign minister. And the death of Iran's two top leaders could have significant implications for the country and also the region and the world.

NBC News foreign correspondent Josh Lutterman has more on that aspect of this breaking news. The Middle East already on a knife's edge over the war in Gaza, attacks on Red Sea shipping and nuclear brinksmanship, and now more fuel for the flame, the disruption of Iran's senior leadership. The president's helicopter going down barely a month after Iran attacked Israel with hundreds of drones and missiles. Israel striking back, leaving the region holding its breath, fearing a regional war. In the days after, Iran's foreign minister, also on the helicopter, speaking to NBC, issuing this threat. He says, if Israel takes a decisive action against my country, and this is proven to us, our response will be immediate and to the maximum, and will cause them to regret it.

So far, no signs of foul play in the downed helicopter. Still, the ripple effects could be felt worldwide. Raisi is a key protege of Ayatollah Khamenei, Iran's ultimate decision maker. Since Raisi's election in 2021, he's overseen a crackdown on women's freedoms, sped up Iran's nuclear program, Iran now enriching uranium at near weapons-grade levels, and expanded Iran's global reach, supplying Russia with weapons for its war in Ukraine, and backing Hamas in Gaza, and proxy groups Hezbollah in Lebanon and the Houthis in Yemen, who have been attacking ships in the Red Sea.

Iran's constitution says if the president dies, the vice president takes over his role. And a new election called within 50 days. How that will change Iran is unknown. But with Raisi gone, the Middle East is once again holding its breath. Josh Letterman, NBC News. David Ignatius, what does his death mean for Iran, for the region, for the world? So, Joe, I think the momentum of the

Iranian state, especially in its foreign policy, continues. I wouldn't expect there to be any significant change. I do think this brings a period where Iran, because it's going through a succession quandary, wouldn't call it a succession crisis. Raisi, the now dead president, was the front runner to become the next supreme leader. In the succession quandary, they may be a little bit more cautious. There'll be political tests jousting back home. I'm struck, Joe, by the contrast between an Iran that continues with this kind of momentum of its clerical regime, where we're not expecting any major changes, and Israel, where we have a really fundamental battle now between Prime Minister Netanyahu and

two key challengers, Benny Gantz, who we talked about in the last hour, member of the War Cabinet, former chief of staff, and the defense minister, Yuav Galat, both of whom have challenged Netanyahu directly and said, you don't have a plan for the future. Hey, David. Yes. Can you break that down for a minute? You know, we speak a good bit in the United States about Benny Gantz. I'm not so sure. And you reference this. I'm not so sure he has quite the support that he needs to make a difference. That said, I know you're hearing reports out of the region that Netanyahu, I certainly am Netanyahu, more isolated than ever and and really getting it from all sides. So, Joe, what I have been hearing over the last week

is that at the senior levels of the IDF, the Israel Defense Forces, there has been a feeling that Prime Minister Netanyahu's leadership simply isn't taking Israel to the kind of acceptable conclusion of the war in Gaza. They're the ones who've been doing the fighting, losing lives, and they're frustrated with the leadership level. The first sign of it was the defense minister speaking. He spoke with me in an interview a week ago and then spoke to Israel the next day in public. And his message was, we need to be more honest about what's ahead in Gaza. It will be led by Palestinians. That's the one thing that Netanyahu has been reluctant to say. So the defense minister, Galant, and now Gantz, a strong figure

respected by Israelis, both these people have significant military leadership of a kind that Netanyahu himself never has had. I think they're now getting in position. And given Netanyahu's unpopularity, we're likely to see, I think, a real battle for succession in Israel. So just to think about these two major combatants, Iran and Israel, each going through a period of transition. It adds a new element of instability. I'm sure that for the U.S., for Jake Sullivan and Brett McGurk, that the issue is how to maintain calm, avoid regional escalation by the unexpected actions in this period where the basics have come unstuck. Well, and Richard Haass, yesterday, I mean, let's just look at what happened yesterday. Iran lost its foreign minister and president in a helicopter crash.

You have, again, rising tensions with Netanyahu, not only the security establishment angry with him, hostage families and others really pulling him from all sides. And then Jake Sullivan, America's national security advisor in Saudi Arabia, talking about deep, long term security commitments. That's a lot. We've got a lot of moving pieces just yesterday. We do have a lot of moving pieces. I guess I have a slightly different take on it. I don't think what happened in Iran has real near term implications. The only question is down the road when they get to choosing a new supreme leader, when the current one who's been in office for, what, 35 years finally dies, whether this raises questions

of legitimacy, which could have an impact on the regime. In Israel, both Gallant and Gantz challenging Netanyahu, but they don't have the votes. And I think, you know, and their criticisms of him lack a certain traction. So my guess is Bibi Netanyahu hangs in there perhaps longer than a lot of people watching this would want to see. And indeed, neither one of them is challenging him on Rafa. That's what's also so interesting to me, that there's real disagreement about what comes next, but not what comes now. I think the thing with Jake Sullivan and the Saudis, though, is really... Well, hey, Richard, can you explain one thing that we don't hear that much in the American press?

We talk about Netanyahu and the problems with his policy and not looking, taking an extremist view. The fact is an overwhelming majority of Israelis, regardless of how they feel about Netanyahu, regardless of how they feel about ultimate peace plan with the Palestinians, want to go into Rafah and finish Hamas off. That's really not open to debate by many. Is it in Israel? No, I think you're right. When I was just there, that's what I heard from virtually all sides. The problem is you can't, quote unquote, finish Hamas off, which is why the conversation about what comes next is so central. You'll still have thousands of Hamas fighters who will be commingled with the population. And the question then is what kind of a force for security and governance? And this is

where it connects with the Saudi thing, Joe. What's missing here is an Israeli willingness to introduce some clear physical role for Palestinians as part of a presence in Gaza and a political agenda for the Palestinians that would lead towards some satisfaction of their political goals. And that's what the Saudis are going to need to normalize relations with Israel. They want to they want to do that. The Arabs across the board want to do that, but they need something from this government in Israel. And that's the one thing this government in Israel can't or won't give them because the government will unravel on that. So I think ultimately it's a really frustrating situation where the one thing Israel has wanted for decades, which is normalization with the Arab world, is really at hand.

But right now you have an ideological government in Israel that simply doesn't prioritize that. They're much more interested about keeping the occupied territories and even settling them further. I mean, that's what Netanyahu's been playing for over the past decade, to do everything he can to keep Hamas afloat. And doing that, we've explained it before. Others in Israel have explained it before by actually funding Hamas through Qatar and other third parties and undermining the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank so they can have illegal settlement settlements continue there.

He has not wanted like Hamas that Yahoo has not wanted a two state solution. He has not wanted peace. But I will say, though, and we've been talking about this, Jonathan O'Meara, actually for quite some time, despite the terror of October 7th, despite the civilian suffering in Gaza since then, despite the chaos in the region. Our Arab allies have been steadfast, quietly steadfast, but quietly standing shoulder to shoulder, continuing to talk to the Biden administration. I mean, extraordinary shuttle diplomacy. I'm sure nobody will ever win a Nobel Peace Prize for it, but they should. If you look at what's been happening since October 7th, the Biden administration has been over there nonstop.

And what have they done? They've kept the Saudis. They've kept Jordan. They've kept the Emiratis. They've kept Egypt. They've kept everybody standing by shoulder to shoulder saying we will help if the United States is there with us. And in a post-war world in Gaza, it's pretty extraordinary. Yesterday underlined that. Yeah. National Security Advisor Sullivan, just in the region.

Obviously, Secretary of State Blinken has been there repeatedly, and they have to this point, for the most part, outside of the Houthi rebels and a few other smaller proxy skirmishes, kept this war from expanding throughout the region. We'll see if that changes. Of course, all eyes watching the fallout from that helicopter crash that killed the Iranian president. National Security Council officials telling me in the last couple of days as well, they do expect Israel to still head into Rafah. The deal was they weren't going to do it while Jake Sullivan was in the region. But now that he's departed with some progress perhaps made towards an agreement with Saudi, they still think it's going to happen. It's a question of just one of size. And Mika, also a little bit of breaking news right now about the region, perhaps more symbolic than not. But the International Criminal Court just now announced it is seeking arrest warrants for Hamas leader Yasser Noir, but also for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. So the ICC is saying they're going to charge Benjamin Netanyahu with war crimes

and crimes against humanity for the aftermath of the war there, for what's happened in Gaza, as well as the head of Hamas for what happened on October 7th. Wow. OK, we'll be following that. Richard Haass and David Ignatius, thank you both very much.