Morning Joe - Morning Joe 5/21/24

Episode Date: May 21, 2024

Trump defense witness gets judge's warning

Trump's lawyers, they've been working to paint Michael Cohen as a sleazy liar who's hell-bent on revenge, while conveniently leaving out the fact that Trump used him as his own personal porno Venmo. And after calling 20 witnesses over the past month, the prosecution rested their case. When he heard, Trump was like, big deal, I've been resting the whole case. Time to rest, Time to rest. Time to rest. Michael Cohen admitted on the stand today he stole money

from the Trump organization only in a Donald Trump trial would the star witness be the one who ends up going to jail. How lucky is Donald Trump? Donald Trump is like a corruption Mr. Magoo. He's just stumbling around, quid pro quo-ing, metal beams falling all around him, gets out completely unscathed.

We'll have much more from Donald Trump's criminal hush money trial, including the dramatic exchange in court with a Trump ally that led to the judge clearing the courtroom. Meanwhile, Rudy Giuliani and other Trump supporters who are accused of election interference in Arizona are due in court today. We'll explain that case and how prosecutors tracked down the former mayor of New York. And we'll have the latest out of Iran on the death of the country's president and foreign minister in the helicopter crash. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Tuesday, May 21st. And Joe, there are ways to be in court and there are ways not to be. Well, we will talk about a minute. I will tell you if I and I'll just say it again, in most courtrooms in America, certainly in courtrooms that if a witness acted toward a judge the way this defense witness

acted yesterday judge would have cleared the courtroom called in the bailiff sent him to jail said we're going to take a recess and and let the the witness think about this in jail and 24 hours and take him out in cuffs and bring him back the next day. But obviously the judge is balancing a lot of different things. We're going to get to that in one minute. Willie, you haven't had a chance to talk about what we talked about a little bit yesterday. And that is the New York Knicks, of course, lost. But I what a what a what a remarkable team this year. What a remarkable season. What remarkable fight that they had even, you know, still getting banged up in the final, you know, in the final game in game seven. Just the injuries kept coming.

And with Indiana shooting 70, 72 percent from the three three point three point area. The surprise isn't that they lost. The surprise is that they got within like six points, that they still had that fight in them even to the very end. Yeah, they were a really fun team this year, and they just literally ran out of players. Everybody was hurt. Even the guys on the floor in Game 7 were hurt.

It's not an excuse, but it's true. Indiana deserved to win. They played great. They scored 130 points on the road in a game seven, and Madison Square Garden totally taking the crowd out of it. So Indiana deserved to win. They move on. They start their series in Boston tonight. Boston will be heavily favored, but Indiana does feel like a hot team right now. But man, the Knicks gave us so much to cheer about. If they can get healthy, if they can re-sign some guys, if they can keep guys around and maybe add one more score for Jalen Brunson, the future is very bright there. So a lot to celebrate for Knicks fans.

We're disappointed, but the truth is by the end of that series, it was clear that we were sort of on our last leg and hobbling through the end of it. But Pacers deserve it. It'd be fun to watch them against the Celtics tonight. And, man, who would believe it? Like Mika was saying, my gosh, the East is crazy. But who would have believed what we got in the West, the Timberwolves against Dallas? Yeah.

I mean, don't turn your back on the Timberwolves, one of the most exciting teams, as Mika says, that she's seen in a very long time. She's a huge fan of Ant-Man. She's been on the Ant-Man bandwagon for a couple of years now, while the rest of us just hopped on this year. Yeah, that'll be a fun series, too. You've got Luca, you've got Anthony Edwards, Carl Anthony Towns, Kyrie Irving, some exciting and new teams, you know, new energy here in the Eastern Conference Finals. So it should be a lot of fun. Let's make the turn to our top story,

which is Donald Trump's criminal hush money trial. It resumes later this morning after contentious moments involving a witness for the former president's defense team. Trump's lawyers called veteran New York attorney Robert Costello to the stand, looking to further the narrative that Michael Cohen is motivated by revenge. At one point, Cohen was considering hiring Costello

at Rudy Giuliani's recommendation. Costello had promised to act as a back channel to former President Trump, but Cohen never retained him. The two have feuded publicly ever since. Costello testified Cohen told him several times that he did not, quote, have anything on Donald Trump and that he paid Stormy Daniels hush money, quote, on his own. Costello soon became aggravated after several objections by prosecutors began making comments under his breath. This is a witness and rolling his eyes. This prompted presiding judge Mershon to ask the jury to leave before addressing the situation. Quote, I want to discuss proper decorum in my courtroom, he said.

So when there is a witness on the stand, if you don't like my ruling, you don't say, geez, OK? And then you don't say, strike it, because I'm the only one that can strike testimony in the courtroom. Do you understand that? Costello responded with, I understand. But the exchange only grew more tense. Judge Mershon saying, OK, and then if you don't like my ruling, you don't give me side eye. You don't roll your eyes. You understand that. Do you understand that? Costello answered, I understand that. I understand what you are saying. But Judge Mershon did not like the look Costello was giving him and said, quote, are you staring me down right now? The judge then completely cleared the courtroom of press and spectators to speak one-on-one with the witness. Judge Mershon purposely allowed his conversation to continue on record, adding to court transcripts

he told Costello, quote, I'm putting you on notice that your conduct is contemptuous. If you try to stare me down one more time, I will remove you from the stand. I will strike his entire testimony. Do you understand me? And quote, shortly after that exchange, the prosecution began its cross-examination of Costello, which will continue this morning, Joe. So an extraordinary moment in Judge Mershon making it clear that whatever you are doing to perform for President Trump right now, whatever you're trying to do to signal that you are continue to be sort of a tough guy, a thug on behalf and in defense of President Trump, it's not going to work in this courtroom.

Well, exactly. And he's playing like the clowns behind him that all come in with their cyborg red ties to an audience of one. And that makes his disrespectfulness toward the judge, but far more importantly, toward the court, toward the court system itself, all the more maddening. And why, if he were to do it again, he needs to be sent to jail. He needs to be sent to jail immediately. Just let's let's take a step back. And Judge Bershon has had to show restraint. Well, every day you have a defendant going out and attacking him personally, suggesting that he's corrupt, suggesting that that the court system is rigged, making it extraordinarily personal

toward him and members of his family. And I suppose I wouldn't do it. I don't care who the defendant were. If I if I'm the judge, they're going to jail and I would bring them in shackles day in and day out. I don't care if we're a Democrat or Republican, whether it was a steel worker, a teacher or the president of the United States. You have to respect the judge because the judge represents the judicial system. And I understand the balancing act that this judge is in the middle of, Willie, but you take everything in its totality. Maybe it's harder to send a former president to jail for contempt when any other American, any other American, any other American would be sent to jail. That is correct.

This double standard stuff that somehow Donald Trump's on the wrong end of the double standard. That's just as Aristotle used to say when he was debating Socrates, that's just bullshit, rank bullshit. The fact is there are two standards here, Willie, and Donald Trump benefits from those double standards every single time. And now the defendant, the defendant's witnesses are are doing the same again, I've never seen this. I've never seen this before in a court because from a witness, because if I did, well, you'd see the back of them going to jail and the next morning they would be wearing orange. And you're right. Judge Mershon has been walking this line for months now, frankly, and every ruling he makes, every decision he makes with consideration of the circumstances around this case that you have a former president who perhaps wants you to put his witness in jail

or maybe even wants you to put him in jail. Let's bring into the conversation former U.S. attorney and MSNBC contributor Chuck Rosenberg, former litigator and MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin, the host of way too early White House bureau chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire with us as always as well. Good morning to you all. Chuck, let me start with you. How extraordinary is what we saw yesterday? Are you surprised that Judge Mershon did not, in fact, hold this witness in contempt? Or do the circumstances prevent him from actually taking that step? A little bit of both, Willie. I think Judge Mershon, over the course of this trial, has demonstrated great equanimity, right?

Patience, thoughtfulness. Frankly, that's what you want in a judge. Always, all the time, even under these circumstances. And so I don't fault Judge Mershon for not holding Mr. Costello in contempt or ordering him to lock up for a night. I think he handled it exactly the right way. You stop the proceedings. Importantly, you send the jury out because they don't need to hear any of this. This should not factor into their determination at all. And you read the guy, the riot act. And then and then if he does it again, if he doesn't get it, if he didn't hear the message

loud and clear, there are other remedies. But as a first step, I think he handled it exactly right. At least it's almost like the gag order with President Trump. I'm going to give you a warning. Give you another warning. I'm going to charge you a thousand bucks every time you see where this is going to Donald Trump and in this case to the witness. Knock it off. I don't want to have to do the thing that I could do. Yeah. And yesterday, to your point, Willie, sort of went in stages, right? Because the first thing he did was to ask the jury to leave. And that's when he gave the recitation about, I hear your G's, I see your side eye, it's time to knock it off. And at one point in that recitation, when Marshawn thinks that Costello is staring him down. He says, are you staring me

down? And that's when he cleared the courtroom of all the press. And you can see in the transcript, the press is absolutely furious at having been told to leave the room. But what Mershon is trying to do in that moment is deprive Costello of the very audience that he wants. It's less about the press and depriving us of our first amendment rights and more about ensuring that Costello doesn't get to continue to be performative in that moment. And that he gets the opportunity to just say to him without anybody else there, stop being contemptuous. That has a meaning, knock it off. And when the cameras went back on in the overflow room, people started laughing because the face that Bob Costello was giving was a

markedly different one. It was like a combination of embarrassed and angry. And then Mershon, by contrast, leaning back in his seat, looking at Costello like this, knowing I have regained control over my courtroom. It was really something to behold. So, Chuck, I'm wondering, just big picture, how much headway had the defense made up until this moment? And how much did this interaction, which I guess was kept on the record for quite some time, even after the jury left, how much did the incident undermine that headway, if any? Well, they did make some headway. I mean, you would expect the defense to make some headway on cross. With Mr. Cohen, for instance, they elicited the fact that he's a liar and a thief. And with Mr.

Costello, who the defense had called as their own witness, they were making the point that Michael Cohen had made inconsistent statements. So, you know, is that helpful to the defense? It is. Was this blow up helpful to the defense? It was not. However, the lecture by Judge Mershon, I think completely earned by Mr. Costello, was out of the earshot of the jury. Again, completely appropriate. Did the jury see, Mika, what led up to it? Of course they did. They understood what was happening. They may not have known what happened when they were gone, but they certainly knew why they were gone. And none of that's helpful. So, you know, I think Lisa's right. Some of this is performative. It's certainly for Mr. Trump. I don't know how that it helps his case.

And I know that the jury knows everything they always do. So to Chuck's point, John, we just saw a transcript of some of the testimony up on the screen that the defense did get Michael Cohen to admit, yes, I stole from the Trump organization about $30,000 of money that was supposed to go somewhere else, trying to make the case that he himself is a con artist, that he himself is a liar, and in this case, a thief, and suggesting that the prosecution is sort of hanging its hat on this witness who you should not believe. That's the argument from the defense anyway. Yeah, and it's right here on the New York Post.

Liar, con artist, thief. That's how they're deeming Michael Cohen with their editorial slant. Yeah, I mean, look, Cohen has admitted to most of this, including the theft. He said that previously. He overbilled a company

that he was supposed to reimburse. He took some off the top there. And we know who he is. And we've known for a long time who Michael Cohen is. Lisa, he's someone who he is and we've known for a long time who Michael Cohen is. Lisa, he's someone who spent time in prison because he lied under oath. So let's but let's talk beyond the PR stunt here, beyond the front page of the tab Floyd's. Do we think the defense undermined Cohen's credibility enough where it will hurt the case or had the prosecution

done enough to buttress it? I actually think that the prosecution did a really good job of drawing the sting and bringing out some of those facts well in advance of any cross-examination. You noted the $30,000 that Michael Cohen took. While yesterday was the first time he said in such stark terms, I stole it, it was the prosecution that first raised the issue. You kept that additional $30,000. And then when Todd Blanche said all the things that he said yesterday about stealing it, he opened the door wide open to an explanation of

what was that $50,000 reimbursement for again? That gave Michael Cohen an opportunity to say, oh, I'm glad you asked. You know what it was? I paid a tech company to rig a poll about the most popular businessmen of the last century. And what they did was basically rig the algorithm so that Donald Trump's ego would be satiated. He directed me to do this. I did it for his benefit. And basically giving the jury yet another example of, here's Michael Cohen committing another crime

or another misdeed for the benefit of, at the direction of, in coordination with Donald Trump. So I think it was a mixed bag for the defense yesterday. So, Chuck, I'm curious, as we're watching this and we don't do day in and day out what you all have done throughout your life, you say juries don't miss anything. I think that's a brilliant insight. How, though, for those of us who don't, who haven't followed this our entire life, proceedings like this our entire life, how does the jury sort through the fact that the guy has lied, that the guy admits on the stand that he stole money from the Trump organization? How do

they sort through that and lend any credibility to his testimony? Right. So Michael Cohen, liar, cheater, thief. The government has never run away from those facts, and they are facts, Joe. And because the defense has also elicited those sorts of admissions, doesn't make it any more true or any less true. He is what he is. The jury has known that from opening statements. The important thing here, and we do this all the time as prosecutors when we use cooperators, by the way, why do we use them? Because they're around

when the crime was committed and they know stuff. It's that simple. Mr. Cohn has been corroborated by lots of other witnesses and lots of other documents. Is that sufficient to convict? Yes, it's sufficient to convict. Will the jury convict? Who knows? I mean, I can't tell you what would happen in my own cases, let alone what will happen. But I can tell you that by corroborating Mr. Cohn with other witnesses and important documents, the jury has everything they need to convict. They know who he is. That has never been hidden from the jury. By the way, it would have been a huge mistake for the government not to adduce these things about Mr. Cohn. It was their job to tell the jury everything they've done. The defense appropriately also cross-examined Mr. Cohn on these very same facts.

But the jury has what it needs. So, Lisa, the prosecution rested yesterday. It feels it has made its case. Now it goes to the defense. You've been digging through the transcripts in court. Give us some window of whether they will or will not call witnesses and how quickly this might wrap up. So they did call two witnesses yesterday. The first was a paralegal of theirs who put a bunch of phone data into a summary chart, very quickly dismantled, by the way, by the prosecution, who showed that Michael Cohen and Bob Costello didn't, in fact, talk 75 times. There was a lot of double counting or calls between, for example, Costello's law firm where Cohen also had a friend,

sort of putting in doubt the frequency of the communication between the two. Their second witness was, of course, Bob Costello, who remains on cross-examination. But last page of the transcript yesterday, so always read the transcript, has Todd Blanch saying at a sidebar, I just have a scheduling question. Assuming we'll finish by 10-ish, 10-15-ish, are we going to go straight to the charge conference or in the afternoon? The charge conference is where the parties hash out with the judge what the jury instructions should look like. But here you have in the transcript, Todd Blanche basically saying, I think we're going to be done with all of our witnesses by 1015. If that holds, that means conclusively Donald Trump's not taking the stand.

But the judge did say, right, Lisa, that the closing arguments won't happen until next week. So we're not going to get a verdict this week. And we are not going to get a verdict. And that's because court is out tomorrow and Friday, even if the parties were to sum up Thursday, doesn't give the jury any opportunity to start deliberating before a long weekend. Judge decided that's not in anybody's interest or in the interest of judges. Read the transcript, says Lisa Rubin. And she's always right, Nika. That is true.

MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin and former U.S. attorney Chuck Rosenberg. Thank you both very much for the updates this morning. And still ahead on Morning Joe, Iran is beginning several days of funeral ceremonies following the sudden death of the country's president and foreign minister. NBC's Keir Simmons joins us with the latest on the investigation into the helicopter crash that killed them and the implications for Iran's leadership.

You're watching Morning Joe. We're back in 90 seconds. Iran's supreme leader has called for five days of national mourning following the helicopter crash that killed the country's president and foreign minister, among others. A funeral for the president will be held in the capital city of Tehran tomorrow, which has been declared a national holiday by the Ayatollah. The crash is now under investigation, according to one semi-official Iranian news agency. Joining us now from the Gulf region is NBC News chief international correspondent Kier Simmons.

Kier, what's the latest in terms of reaction in the region and the investigation? Well, Mika, we're seeing what can only be described as incredibly impactful pictures from the city of Tabriz in Iran. That is the closest city to the crash sites. Also, where two of the officials who were killed in that helicopter crash are from. Huge crowds in the streets and in that city of Tabriz as the coffins of President Raisi and the others killed, including the foreign minister, slowly make their way through the streets, people reaching out to touch the coffins, carrying flags, Iranian flags and pictures of President Raisi, emotional scenes. Of course,

what you don't see in those pictures are the Iranians who are opposed to the Iranian regime, who criticize the regime for executing dissidents, for arresting journalists, for clamping down, crushing protests, like, for example, the protests for women two years ago. There are men and women in tears in the crowds. But then around the world, you're seeing outside Iranian embassies, celebrations and online women opposed to the regime celebrating the death of these officials. As you mentioned, this funeral will be carried out over a series of days, first there in Tabriz and then the body is taken tonight to Tehran, where the funeral will be held again tomorrow and then for President Raisi moving on to his hometown.

So three days and five days of mourning announced by the Supreme Leader. There are, of course, huge political implications from what happened with the death of the president in this helicopter crash. We're seeing the pictures and understanding from those images now, from TV crews on the ground, just how it is that he did not survive, where rescuers took hours to reach him. We're hearing from the U.S. government, from the State Department, saying that, and it's a sign, I think, of the panic in the ensuing hours, that Iran reached out,

a rare moment of diplomacy amid the animosity between the U.S. and Iran, reached out for help, State Department saying that it was not able to help because of logistical reasons. At the same time, these reports that President Raisi might be a successor to the Supreme Leader. That is a very opaque process. And we managed to reach an advisor to the Iranian government in Tehran. And what he told us was that, in fact, Mr. Raisi was not on the official list. Take a listen. Well, President Raisi has nothing to do with the leader. Contrary to what some people in the West were saying, he was not any candidate for the position of leader. The current leader is very healthy, as people see. He's regularly in the public view. But when the time comes, the council that is envisaged in the Constitution will

choose a new leader. And again, as in the past, the country will move forward. And Joe, I mean, we know the Supreme Leader is 85, that he has faced a number of health crises. But that advisor telling me from Tehran that Iranian foreign policy won't change. I think from what we heard from the U.S. talking about condolences, but also talking about support for the people of Iran who stand up to the regime. I think the evidence is now at this stage. I think we can say that the death of the president of Iran is not likely to change things fundamentally, at least not now, not in the short term. All right. NBC's Keir Simmons coming to us from the region. Thank you

so much. Greatly appreciate it. Let's bring in right now the former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO, retired four-star Navy Admiral James Trevitas. He's a chief international analyst for NBC News. You know, a saying I heard when I was young that I always keep with me is beware the man with nothing to lose. Well, you can say the same for countries. Beware the countries with nothing to lose by striking out? You can look at Russia. And as we heard earlier last week, they have a demographic time bomb going off.

They have a weakening economy. So Putin flexes muscles, went to Ukraine. We can go down the list of China's problems right now. The reason we have fear then. But here with Iran, you have economic decline. You've got political unrest that's been going on for the past decade, just simmering under the surface. And now the death of their president and their foreign minister. What fears do you have that they may strike out during this time of weakness? It's a very legitimate proposition. I'll add another to your list, which is North Korea, you know, a starving dictatorship that doesn't have a lot of global options open to them. Look, the Ayatollahs are on a one way street. They cannot turn around. They cannot get out of what is building behind them. And what is building behind them, you used the

D word a minute ago, demographics. It's an extremely young society, increasingly urban. They're not looking to live the life that the Ayatollahs are offering them. So this kind of event creates an internal bubbling in addition to the whole game of Thrones, who's going to be the next supreme leader. All of that, Joe, and this is your point, and it's a correct one, could, could, I think it's unlikely, but it could cause them, the Ayatollahs, to lash out in order to kind of create a rally around the flag situation in Tehran. I think it's unlikely it's worth thinking about. I know U.S. intelligence is concerned about it. That's why our good friend, Rear Admiral John Kirby, is at pains to ensure that we don't

escalate the situation and give the Ayatollahs an opportunity to lash out. Admiral, we saw those scenes in the streets of some young people anyway celebrating the death of this president. It gets at a tension we've talked about for generations now in Iran, which is the repressive Ayatollahs, the repressive autocratic leadership in Iran does not fit with young people in that country who have ideas about freedom and democracy and Western values in some cases. Would a new leader change any of that at all? Is there any hope for those young people in Iran who want to see a different kind of leadership? You know, back to that one way street,

the crowd behind them is building and it's not going to go away. And I'd point you back two years ago to the terrible death of a young Iranian woman in the custody of the ironically named Morality Police of Iran. And what happened? Women and girls led a massive series of uprisings. Pretty remarkable. It's a pretty good indicator of the crowd that's behind the Ayatollah's building. They know it. There's real risk for them internally. There really is. And Jonathan LaMere, the risks are real, as Willie pointed out, and the Admiral, from a younger, growing demographic. We saw those scenes a few years ago. We saw middle school girls defiantly chant against a once feared and loathed regime. You go back even to and it's not just Western values that they seek. They certainly the younger or more urban Iranians do. But also

there are people who are devout Muslims. I think one of the most jarring things for the religious leaders, starting with the Green Movement back well over a decade ago, is often the very people they were oppressing were chanting Allah Akbar and shouting it from the roof, saying, we are Muslims. This is a holy fight against an oppressive and corrupt Iranian regime. Whether whether they call themselves mullahs or not, it is, you know, the divisions are stark there. Yeah, divisions are stark and there is growing momentum, which is why the regime has been so oppressive in trying to put it down. Admiral, I have some new reporting this morning about how on Sunday,

there were a few hours there where those in the White House and the NSC were deeply concerned that when this helicopter crash happened, that Iran would try to blame the U.S. or Israel for it and potentially escalate a conflict which could snowball into something truly catastrophic, even some, as one person put to me, even as this is the first moments of World War III? Thankfully, Iran has not done that, at least not yet. They even said yesterday they did acknowledge it was mechanical failure that led to this crash. But since things are so precarious in the region, how would you say that Israel and the other Gulf states will proceed here in this moment of potential change for Iran? Yeah, it's the right question to be asking, Jonathan. And to nail it directly, we will give Iran space at the moment, and it's in our interest to do so. Just kind of step away from the car here. Let the Iranians figure this out

internally. Don't do anything that causes them to provoke their population and lash out. And I think a key thought here, we've been talking a lot about Islam and the religion inside. Don't forget, in that region, there's a huge division between the Shia branch of Islam led by Iran and the Sunni branch led by the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, by Egypt, by Jordan. These are ancient rivalries, much akin inside Christianity to the wars of the Reformation between Catholics and Protestants, which lasted a couple of hundred years. So there's plenty of tension to go around. I think all sides here, including Israel, U.S. and the Sunni Arabs, need to stand back, let the Iranians have their moment. We'll deal downrange with the challenges from Tehran. Before we let you go, Admiral, let's switch topics and talk about Ukraine.

Obviously, Ukrainians in a desperate struggle to hold on to Kharkiv, asking for the United States and NATO allies to shoot down Russian missiles. What we we've obviously what we're seeing unfold still is is sort of the delayed impact of Donald Trump, Speaker Johnson, House Republicans delaying aid to Ukraine. It's just not getting there quickly enough because because of the months long delay. The question is, what do we need to do right now in the interim before they get all the equipment that they need to stop the stop Russia's push and not only into Kharkiv, but always ever closer to Kiev? Number one, it's get them the artillery shells, the 155 howitzer rounds, the the projectiles that can have real effect on the front line. Those are stacked, ready to go, under command of the NATO commander, General Chris Cavoli.

Those are moving. Everything humanly we can do to accelerate that, the better. Number two, get the F-16s, the new fighters, into the game. That will affect better air defense and help the Ukrainians close their skies. And third and finally, it's long range surface to surface missiles, the attack. All these things are moving. The months of delay, frankly, unconscionable. We can still recover. Kharkiv can be saved, but it's going to require all hands on deck at this moment for Ukraine. All right. Retired Admiral James Stavridis,

thank you very much for coming on this morning. We appreciate it once again. And coming up, our next guest is using modern research techniques to examine how celebrities such as Taylor Swift, Stan Lee and the Beatles came to be household names that we know today. Bestselling author Cass Sunstein joins us with his new book on how to become famous. That's straight ahead on Morning Joe. Do you wish fans would listen more instead of screaming at concerts? We've proved that we can be heard and screamed at all at once, you know.

But still, if the people do want to scream, you know, it's up to them. They've paid to get in, you know. Who are we to say what they should do when they get in? How long did it take you to grow your hair and how often do you wash it? It's always been fairly long, so it didn't, doesn't take long to grow. And we'd use any kind of shampoo. That was the Beatles taking questions from fans before a concert in Chicago back in 1965. And while the Fab Four had gotten used to screaming crowds by that point, their superstardom was not always a sure thing. Joining us now, bestselling author and How the Beatles Came to Be.

And how it came to be that you would write this book is where we'll start, because you say it was the funnest book you've ever written or experience you've had. Yeah, I learned one day that there was a journal called the Journal of Beatles Studies, and I thought it would be improbable and really fun for me to write it for the Journal of Beatles Studies. And I tried to write about music, but I knew nothing about music. So what I wrote was awful. And this changed to being a paper about Beatlemania and how it started. Well, you really missed a major reference in your research, and that would be Joe Scarborough. You can literally ask him any

question about the Beatles. And unfortunately, in a freakish sort of way, he'll know the answer, Joe. Meek is very disturbed by it, Cass. I'm so fascinated by your book. And, you know, as you point out, the Beatles were not inevitable. I mean, I remember reading one time George Martin, and you write about this, he didn't even want to do them. He did comedy records. When he first heard their songs, he's like, maybe there's one or two we can find in there. Another record exec said, the boys won't go. Of course, there's the famous line from the record producer, bands with guitars are on their way out. And yet two years later, they were the biggest force in music history.

How did they how did these kids from Liverpool take over the world? Well, they were really good. That was the first thing. But also they were really lucky. So they had repeated rejections in England. They couldn't get a record deal. And it happened that Brian Epstein, he just wouldn't give up. And it also happened that on the day that Please Please Me, their song that they recorded with Martin, their second hit, the night that it was displayed live, they played live in England, there was the biggest snowstorm in 100 years. So everyone was staying home and that helped vault them. They also had some people in one of the record studios

who quite liked them and probably really pushed them hard after their repeated rejections. And after both John and Paul said, I think we're not going to make it, we maybe should give up. Yeah, and of course, Mr. Epstein, as they called him, would not give up either. Just kept fighting for him. Let's go to the other part, really underlying part of the book that is really, I think, just as fascinating, more fascinating. You and I are both old enough to know that often I can say in my case, some of the greatest guitarists I've ever met, some of the greatest musicians I've ever met, some of the greatest graphic artists, some of the greatest artists I've ever met through the years just never got out of their hometowns. Just the sparks, as you say, the sparks

didn't didn't click right for them. Talk about that. Well, there's a bunch of studies saying that the reason people get successful or famous is that they're amazing. Maybe there was something about determination. Maybe there was something about persistence. Maybe there was something about talent. And that's not false entirely. You've got to be really good, usually, to be like the Beatles. And the Beatles were amazing. But you need some breaks and you need some serendipity and you need some champions and you need a network. So if you look at great literary figures like John Keats or Jane Austen, they weren't thought to be completely amazing in their time. Keats kind of thought he failed.

He died young and thought he had his ambitions hadn't really worked out. If you look at Herman Melville, he wasn't a big success or Vincent Van Gogh or right now, Robert Johnson, the great blues guitarist. So something happens either in your lifetime, like Brian Epstein for the Beatles, or something happens where you're struck by lightning a little bit. That happened for Taylor Swift when she was very, very young. And it's often what happens in the world and not happens in your training period that turns you from a nobody into an icon. Well, and of course, Willie, underlying all of those examples, if you're talking about the Beatles, you know, it's the 10,000 hour rule. The Beatles would play

24 hours a day in Hamburg. They would fall asleep on their feet. I mean, they left Liverpool, went to Hamburg. By the time they came back, they were just an extraordinarily tight band. And they had their act down. Taylor Swift, my God, she knew what she wanted to be from the very beginning and worked, worked, worked, worked. And Van Gogh struggled, failed at just hundreds of things, just was a miserable failure at hundreds of things until he figured out in a flash what what he was a master at. So this is it is not not to sound like an old dad, but even though it takes luck underneath it all is talent and hard work, hard work, hard work, hard work. Yeah. And unbreakable will to be successful in navigating everything that has to be navigated. Cass, I was thinking, as you and Joe were just talking about

music, stand up comedians, the most famous stand up comedians you can think of. You ask them who their favorite stand up is. And almost invariably, it's somebody you've maybe heard of or haven't heard of at all. But they say he's the funniest guy I ever met. And for whatever reason, he didn't push the way we pushed or he wasn't interested in being who we are. So how does that force of will come into it? And we can talk about Taylor Swift. Yet she's a great songwriter. She's a great performer. She would probably tell you there are other great songwriters and performers who

never got even close to where she is. So what is it about that will that makes people famous and gets them into this elite class? OK, I think we want to be really careful here because the number of people who have a force of will is very large and the percentage of those who do well is very small. So force of will might be a necessary condition for spectacular success, though I bet you can find a thousand people who did really, really well in music or literature who kind of had some will, but not particular force of will. So it's often, think of Stan Lee, for example, the guy behind Marvel Comics. Did he have fantastic force of will? Kind of. He also had a stroke of luck where at some moment he thought, I'm not

going to do these boring comics about people with square jaws who say, up, up and away, I'm going to do something that has smart Alex and personality. That wasn't force of will. It was a little like a stroke of creativity combined with an audience that vaulted him to Stan Lee-ness rather than Stan Lee himself being sufficient. All right. The new book is How to Become Famous, Lost Einstein's Forgotten Superstars and How the Beatles Came to Be. Harvard Law Professor Cass Sunstein, thank you. Always good to see you. Thanks for congratulations on the book. And still ahead on Morning Joe, 16-time Grammy-winning singer Alicia Keys will join us live in studio to talk about her hit Broadway musical Hell's Kitchen, which is nominated for 13 Tony Awards.

Morning Joe will be right back. Oh, a beautiful look at the White House here in Washington, D.C., on a beautiful, sunny Tuesday morning. It is 54 past the hour. Time now for a look at some of today's morning papers. The Arizona Republic leads with the growing wildfire just north of Scottsdale. The Wildcat Fire has nearly tripled in size in the past 24 hours, burning more than 14,000 acres of land as of this morning. Officials say the fire has been difficult to tame due to hot, dry, windy conditions. Let's go to Texas, where the Houston Chronicle reports residents are still reeling from the deadly storm that swept through the state last week. An eighth death has been confirmed resulting

from the storms, while over 180,000 residents are still without power. And several school districts without AC will be close today, with temperatures expected to climb into the 90s. The Kansas City Star reports that victims who were wounded during the shooting at the Chiefs Super Bowl parade in February will soon begin receiving assistance. The Casey Strong Fund was established three months ago in partnership with the Chiefs. Victims wounded at the parade, as well as first responders and violence prevention organizations, are expected to receive payments from the fund at the end of June. And in Ohio, the Columbus dispatch is highlighting a lawsuit from the ACLU that argues the state's latest voting law violates the rights of Americans with disabilities. The law, which passed last year, restricts who can return absentee ballots for others. The ACLU says the law makes it more difficult for those who are hospitalized or homebound because of an illness or disability.

It makes it impossible for them to vote. Proponents argue it will help prevent ballot harvesting, where third parties return completed ballots on someone else's behalf.