Morning Joe - Morning Joe 5/24/23

Episode Date: May 24, 2023

Trump hush money trial to begin next March; Ron DeSantis to launch presidential bid today

The Speaker told reporters that they're not close to a deal at this point. Are you concerned about timing at this point? Look, I think everybody needs to relax. Regardless of what may be said about the talks on a day-to-day basis, the President and the Speaker will reach an agreement. It will ultimately be passed on a bipartisan vote in both the House and the Senate. Live look at Capitol Hill. It is 6 a.m. on the East Coast.

And that was Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell trying to calm fears about a U.S. default. We'll have the latest in the negotiations over the debt ceiling. Plus, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis chooses an unusual platform for launching his presidential campaign. We'll get into that. That has definitely never been done before. And another southern state passes an extreme abortion bill despite bipartisan efforts to block it. We'll also have new reporting on the status of the Mar-a-Lago classified documents investigation, which some legal experts feel is the strongest legal case against Donald Trump. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Wednesday, May 24th. You've got Willie and me. Joe is off. Along with us, you've got the host of Way Too

Early, White House bureau chief at Politico, Jonathan Lem us, you've got the host of Way Too Early, White House Bureau Chief Politico, Jonathan Lemire, former aide to the George W. Bush White House and State Department's Elise Jordan, U.S. special correspondent for BBC News, the great Katty Kay and founder of the conservative website, The Bulwark. Charlie Sykes is with us this morning. And Willie, you've just got to wonder with you had Tim Scott yesterday. You've got Ron DeSantis now announcing he's jumping in. We'll get to that in a moment. Really strange Twitter connection there. And then the mindset of Donald Trump with the documents case appearing to be heating up. And we'll have more on that later.

And obviously, the Georgia case, Fannie Willis, there's real strong indications that real information, possibly even an indictment, maybe in August, if you look at the tea leaves and now maybe even a criminal trial for a former U.S. president. I mean, his mindset has got to be in a place of extreme stress or I mean, at this point, I know he calls it a witch hunt, but things are really closing in on the former president. Well, we saw exactly what you're talking about yesterday. The former president of the United States, angry, upset, frustrated because how's this for a headline?

A date has been set for the first ever criminal trial of an American president during a hearing in New York City yesterday. The judge presiding over Donald Trump's criminal case decided on March 25th, 2024. Yes. Right in the middle of Republican primary season. The former president will go on trial for 34 felony counts of falsifying business records. Trump, who attended yesterday's hearing remotely, appeared to react angrily when the date was announced. The New York Times reports, though his microphone was muted, Trump began to wave his hands and shake his head before folding his arms in frustration. Later in the day, Trump made his thoughts clear with a post on social media

where he blasted the decision to schedule his trial in the middle of the Republican primary calendar. Trump also slammed a protective order laid out by the judge, which restricts Trump from publicly sharing evidence his legal team obtains during the discovery phase of the case. Trump has pleaded not guilty to the charges against him there. NBC News has reached out to both sides in the case for Trump has pleaded not guilty to the charges against him there. NBC News has reached out to both sides in the case for comment about yesterday's hearing, but has not heard anything back. So Charlie Sykes, as Mika says, this is just one in a long line of cases likely

to come on Donald Trump during a presidential campaign, not because it's political, not because prosecutors are trying to plop it in the middle of a campaign, but because he committed potential crimes. He's maybe charged with some other crimes, as Mika said, in Georgia and with Jack Smith. This is all going to play out during a campaign unlike anything we've ever seen before. Well, stop me if you've heard this before, but this is extraordinary and it is unprecedented. And I think you also saw some other Trump traits yesterday with his complete lack of impulse control. The judge had to lecture him about what he could and could not do with the evidence that is going to be shared with him. And what does Donald Trump do? He immediately puts out a statement attacking attacking the judge.

And this comes, you know, as he is redefaming E. Gene Carroll. I actually think his former attorney, Michael Cohen, was exactly right when he said that it seems almost inevitable that Donald Trump is going to violate these court orders, which means that not only do we have all of these other cases coming down, but the possibility of the former president being found in contempt of court, even as the campaign heats up. So it was really an extraordinary day yesterday and a reminder of how completely abnormal this political campaign already has become. Completely abnormal. And Willie, I was trying to make the list. It's so long, it's easy to forget. E. Jean Carroll has decided to sue him again. So he's got cases that he might consider annoying and expensive because he's got to pay for attorneys. But they're serious

because he was already found liable of sexual abuse and defamation and fined five million dollars. He's appealing that she's suing again. I mean, some of these cases are going to take a tremendous amount of his emotional energy, and some of them have the potential of jail time, real potential of jail time. Yeah. And his former attorney, Ty Cobb, a couple of days ago said as much. He said, I think in this documents case, Donald, there's a good chance Donald Trump goes to jail. I mean, that's his Ty Cobb, Donald Trump's former attorney talking about that. And it is hard to keep track of all these elites. So the one that has the date now, March 25th, 2024, that's the Stormy Daniels hush money payment trial. But, boy, there certainly is a long list still ahead of him.

And he can say all he wants that this is a witch hunt, but he's going to have to deal with this stuff and he's going to deal with it while Ron DeSantis is coming at him, while he's trying to win the Republican nomination and confront Joe Biden. He's going to be mired in all these legal problems. So far, it seems to only have been to his benefit. I just still I'm kind of sitting here thinking about it, taking it in. You can't believe this guy has so many swirling legal problems and he still is heads and tails above everyone else in the Republican primary and seemingly only getting stronger for it. And I don't see short of, you know, literal jail time, how that's going to necessarily change in the near future.

If Republicans are so scared to attack him, that shows how strong he is that no one. Can you imagine having a political opponent with these problems and yet you still are petrified to go at them? Yes. Republicans have really held their held their fire so far. Maybe that will change. I was speaking to a senior White House official late last night after this date came out, and they concede, those in the Biden political operation, like this isn't going to hurt him in the Republican primary. In fact, he'll probably get a boost because of it, in part because of that dynamic that Elise just discussed. But this will, of course, be damaging in 2024. In a general election, as you're trying to persuade

those swing voters, those independent voters who so often decide elections, who didn't 16, who didn't 20, broke against him in 20. And Mika, there's little to no chance that they would break for him now. You add a criminal indictment, you add an ongoing criminal trial, we're going to see footage of him coming in and out of a courtroom in between campaign rallies. Like we've never been here before. Now, I know I say that a lot on this show, but we've never been here before. And it's going to change the dynamic of next year, whether Trump likes it or not. This is new territory for sure. And there could be more than one indictment. It's very possible. Now, the Wall Street Journal reports special counsel

Jack Smith's investigation into former President Trump's mishandling of classified documents at his Mar-a-Lago resort is close to wrapping up. People in the former president's circle familiar with the matter say some of Trump's associates are bracing for his indictment and anticipate being able to fundraise off a prosecution. In recent weeks, the Journal reports prosecutors working for Smith have completed interviews with nearly every employee at Trump's Florida home. The special counsel team has also conducted a flurry of grand jury interviews that appear to tie up loose ends. The paper couldn't determine whether Smith has decided to charge Trump or if he's presented a recommendation on the matter to Attorney General Merrick Garland, who would make a final decision couldn't determine whether Smith has decided to charge Trump or if he's presented a recommendation on the matter to Attorney General Merrick Garland, who would make a final decision on any such charges. A spokesperson for Smith declined to comment. So many questions. Joining us now,

the author of that new report, senior reporter for The Wall Street Journal, Aruna Vishwanatha. And Aruna, it's great to have you on the show. I guess, first of all, everybody at Mar-a-Lago has been interviewed. I'm curious, are they still working there? How does that work? That's just personal curiosity, because President Trump has that vow of loyalty that he thinks that he can put on people. But secondly, what are the indications here that this is winding down to either charges or closing up? Right. Thanks for having me. So what we know is that over the past few months, Jack Smith's team has been very aggressive in trying to talk to almost everybody that works there, from the maid to

his senior aides, and calling them back multiple times to ask them more questions. And as far as we know, most of them do still work for him and do work there. And what we know is that in recent weeks, the questions have gotten even more pointed and seem to be very much Jack Smith's team trying to see if they can establish the elements that they need to establish if they want to try to prove that a crime had happened. And there was a flurry of activity over the past few weeks where they just tried to rush to get every it seemed like they were rushing to get everybody in and get all of the evidence that they could. And those requests have pretty much stopped at this point. And they seem to be saying, like, OK, thanks. We have what we need right now. And so that tees up for us this idea that there is an end to this investigation coming very soon. So, Aruna, what's the process now?

Would Jack Smith announce charges himself if he had decided that that was what the case merits? counsel makes a recommendation to the attorney general. The attorney general ultimately accepts it, or if he decides it's not warranted, he can overturn that and then report that he's overturning it to Congress. But in terms of how we would see it announced, if he were to decide to bring charges, we would see the grand jury returning an indictment and then that would get unsealed. And it's only then that we would we would see that anything has happened. Aruna, good morning. As you were reporting out this story, what is your sense of the level of concern from Trump's team? They always project confidence publicly. We know that they've said, well, we're going to raise a bunch of money off this prosecution. They've done that in the past, too. But this is pretty real stuff here. As I mentioned, Ty Cobb, the former White House lawyer, said he believes when all is said and done, there's a good chance

Donald Trump goes to jail because of the some of the stuff that we've seen in these classified documents. So how worried is Donald Trump's team? I mean, to be clear, some of his attorneys do firmly believe that there's no case here and they don't believe that a case is going to be forthcoming. But others are pretty much resigned to there being a potential case. But, you know, the reactions are somewhat mixed. I mean, with the Manhattan D.A. case, obviously, you saw he got a political boost from that and he was able to fundraise off of that. And they potentially see a similar dynamic playing out here. So it might not necessarily be a be a terrible thing for them, especially when they can kind of compare it to, you know, President Biden. Also having issues with having classified documents founded at founded as residents and things like that.

So it seems like they're bracing for it, but not necessarily super concerned. The Wall Street Journal's Aruna Vishwanatha, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. Jonathan Lemire, I mean, there are the political angles of Biden and Pence having documents, but we all know this is really extremely different. And from different reporting, we're seeing clear signs that potentially the president also obstructed justice. Yeah. And that's what this investigation is going to be about. As you say, Biden, Pence also were found to have documents they shouldn't have. The difference being they gave them right back and the Trump camp most certainly did not. And here's a tell the question on whether or not the Trump camp is worried about this. Trump posted to Truth

Social last night a letter that his lawyer sent to Merrick Garland requesting a meeting about this, about special counsel Smith's investigation. And the letter itself is full of bluster and whataboutisms. But here's the key. This is, in some ways, standard procedure. It's sort of the last step before charges when the lawyers for the defendant go talk to the prosecutor and ask them to either not pursue charges or to pursue milder charges. This is usually a clue that a charging decision is imminent. So the Trump team clearly expects they're going to hear sooner than later whether or not Trump's going to get charged. And the fact they're asking this for this meeting suggests they think that he will. Boy, a lot is happening in the legal legal realm for former President Donald Trump. We'll be following all of that. Also, the 2024 White House race could see a dramatic shift tonight as Florida Governor Ron DeSantis officially declares his candidacy.

Three sources familiar with the plans tell NBC News DeSantis will announce his presidential bid tonight during a discussion with Twitter CEO Elon Musk. The two are set to host an event at 6 o'clock Eastern time on Twitter. They have a platform for audio chats. After the announcement, DeSantis' campaign is expected to release a launch video, and Florida's first lady, Casey DeSantis, appears to have already put out a preview. Take a look. They call it faith because in the face of darkness, you can see that brighter future. A faith that our best days lay ahead of us. But is it worth the fight? Do I have the courage?

Is it worth the sacrifice? America has been worth it every single time. Charlie Sykes, your thoughts on the preview. Well, let's just talk about launching a candidacy with Elon Musk. This is not a parody. When you think about, you know, the fact that the governor of Florida decides to launch a bid for president of the United States by bowing the knee to a tech ol certain amount of chaos in the MAGO world. And it is going to be interesting to see how Donald Trump responds. I think it makes it very unlikely that he's going to return to Twitter at this point. But what an extraordinary choice. I mean, for for Ron DeSantis to basically go all in on Elon Musk at the time that Elon Musk is, you know, has been displaying all of his brain worms, you know, saying that working from home is immoral, doubting whether a mass killer was really a neo-Nazi, opening the doors to Twitter to every sort of every every sort of grifter and bigot and conspiracy theorist. But Ron DeSantis clearly thought that he needed a big

shift, a big pivot, something dramatic. And so within MAGA world, it's going to be interesting because it wasn't that long ago that much of MAGA world was looking to Elon Musk as their savior. And now we are going to see a food fight for the ages. And Elise, as Charlie says, it'll get a whole bunch of attention if you're with Elon Musk, one of the richest guys, most famous guys in the world. But for a man in Governor DeSantis who's been accused of kind of playing small ball and fighting Twitter fights while he wants to be president of the United States, maybe sort of leaning into that a little bit or emphasizing that for his critics. I find it very baffling. The choice also just it just seems to make no sense, because first of all,

why do you share your big moment with a huge, powerful billionaire who's arguably more famous and has more name ID than you do? And then second, you're on this platform that's diminishing in its popularity and also its reach. Maybe political journalists talk about it. Maybe the far right elites talk about it. But Twitter is a diminishing force these days. And you've seen how three, Elon, everything he touches can, you know, he does well when he's engineering and it's Tesla. But with Twitter, you've seen how he doesn't mind just casually tossing a couple of billion dollars or multiple billion dollars. And so you've got this volatile actor that you've given so much power for your big moment.

It just really makes no sense. Well, in many ways, John, since he took over Twitter, Elon Musk has become a hero to conservatives because they feel like their voices were silenced on social media, at least on Twitter. And he's given their platform back at least to share some of that space. Maybe a shot across the bow of Donald Trump. I got the richest, most famous guy on my side. We know that Elon Musk is kind of malleable that way. He may decide he likes somebody else tomorrow. What do you make of the platform in the way that Ron DeSantis finally is rolling out the campaign? I mean, it's another sign of where Musk's political ideologies lie, even though he said he took Twitter. He wanted to be independent, nonpartisan. Here he is siding himself with one of the heavyweights in the Republican Party. I think it is interesting also that it shows his influence.

And it's maybe it's DeSantis snubbing Fox News by saying, hey, let's do this on Twitter, as opposed to talking to them. I'm going to go the other way from Charlie Sykes, though. I think that tonight at 5.59 p.m. is probably Donald Trump's first tweet back, trying to steal some of that thunder. But, Katty K., one thing that this is undeniably, it's an unusual way to announce a campaign. And it's certainly not going to silence those whispers that Ron DeSantis lacks basic political skills, retail skills. He's not doing this with a rally. He's not doing this with a speech. He's doing it in a safe space where he's likely not going to take any questions from the audience or certainly reporters.

He's got some real obstacles to overcome here to try to reverse what to this point his pre-campaign period hasn't gone so well. Yeah. Another unusual thing. Am I wrong in thinking that that's a British voice? Yeah. We all thought the same. We all said the same thing. That's the third time I've listened to it. I don't know if we need to listen to that top of it again. But can I just say the top of that sounds very much like a British accent, which in and of itself is sort of weird for an American presidential campaign launch.

But anyway, maybe other people won't pick up on that. I think it is. It does get him around the issue of having to interact with people, which obviously the Trump campaign is already pointing out that this means if he's on Twitter, he doesn't actually have to talk to normal people. You know, it's this there's still a chance there are campaigns that fumble out of the gate and there's a chance that he can get better on the stump, which is obviously what his campaign is hoping. He still has a significant amount of money in the bank, although fundraisers are looking at him a bit more warily now. But he needs to

correct all of the problems that he's had up until now. He needs to correct the Disney thing, his book launch, which was not a great tour, the tour abroad, which got widely panned. And he's going to have to develop a better way of interacting with voters and stoking something in them that doesn't sound awkward and uncomfortable, because that's kind of how he sounds when he's with people at the moment. So he has a lot to do, but he still, I think at the moment, it's hard to see somebody who is amongst the pack, who is the one that's the other front runner to take on Donald Trump. I mean, I don't see another name out there yet. And the polling doesn't suggest that there is another name out there yet. Maybe once Mike Pence gets in, that changes the equation. Let's see.

But so far, it is still Ron DeSantis' opportunity to take on Trump and Ron DeSantis' alone, it looks like at the moment. But, you know, that can change. It is, I know it's early and it's late, but it's still relatively early. Yeah, it's early and it's it's it's often interesting to see what happens when they get on the big stage. If things adjust, Charlie, I'm trying to be as objective as possible here. He is going to appear, by the way, on Fox News. She's not completely snubbing them, I think, tonight at some point. But of course, that's where he'll be. And I don't know. I don't understand this

announcement with Elon Musk. We might need like a young person to explain this audio platform. So is it audio only and you don't see his face? What is the strategy? What is the strategy in terms of appealing to who on twitter you i mean there are so many questions about all of this i mean we we've seen ronda sandis's lack of interpersonal skills on on display i i think now you're seeing um perhaps his lack of of political judgment doing this i mean the the point about being in Elon Musk's shadow is a really good point. You know, normally when you're running for president, the United States, you do not want to be overshadowed by someone like Elon Musk. He's also going to be on with a with a mega donor named David Sachs, who is a notorious anti-Ukraine activist. The other point to be

made here is the risk reward. I mean, he obviously thinks there's going to be reward by siding up to the basically the online right. But when you align yourself with Elon Musk, there is tremendous risks. You know, I've used the word erratic several times. Just a couple of days ago, he was tweeting out praise for Tim Scott. Elon Musk can change his mind on a dime. A week from now, he can say, yeah, Ron DeSantis, I gave him a shot and he totally fizzled out. I mean, he could cut Ron DeSantis off at the knees 48 hours from now. And this is kind of the calculation that Ron DeSantis has made. He's gone on this diminishing, shrinking site that, frankly, most people don't even understand.

I mean, I'm on Twitter all the time, and I'm not sure that I can answer your question about the Twitter spaces. It's going to be video, but I'm going to have to spend a little bit of time figuring out how to get there. But I'm an old guy. But I do think that you're seeing his lack of political skills and his lack of political judgment and maybe a little bit of whiff of desperation here. You know, how do I reset this campaign and change the narrative? But, boy, you would think that there'd be somebody in the room saying, Governor Elon Musk, really? Can we do a little bit of background here? Can I tell you exactly how this, in fact, might play out? Other than just triggering Donald Trump, there's a lot of downsides. Yep. Yep. I don't disagree. Charlie

Sykes, thank you very much. And still ahead on Morning Joe today marks one year since the mass shooting at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas. We're going to discuss the ongoing fight for tougher gun laws with the state senator who represents the area. Plus, another GOP-led state sends a controversial abortion bill to the governor's desk. We'll go over the impact of that and other similar legislation as we head into 2024. Also ahead, Congressman Jamie Raskin and Congresswoman Alyssa Slotkin will both join us to weigh in on the fight over the debt ceiling. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. Raise my hands. This afternoon will mark one year since the massacre in Uvalde, Texas. The White House says the president will give a speech remembering the victims and to, quote, reiterate his call for Republicans in Congress to act and help to stop the epidemic of gun violence that has become the number one killer of kids in America.

Last year, 19 fourth grade students, two teachers were killed by an 18 year old gunman inside Rob Elementary School. 17 others were seriously injured that day one year ago. Hundreds of local and state police officers waited outside the school for more than an hour before breaching the classroom and finally killing the gunman. That shooter legally bought both of the AR-style rifles he had with him just days before the attack. Joining us now, Texas State Senator Roland Gutierrez, who represents Uvalde. Mr. Senator, we appreciate you being with us this morning. I won't ask how everyone's doing in Uvalde because one short year cannot heal the pain that you all have felt and that those families have felt right there. But what is the feeling now on this terrible anniversary? Well, I think that families are just devastated. I mean,

you don't heal from this. You don't get over this. Every one of those families has been devastated. They've been devastated by a legislature in Texas that has done absolutely nothing. We will be memorializing the deaths of those children later on this morning in the Texas Senate. And yet, the biggest insult there is that we did absolutely zero pieces of legislation that would have a monumental change or the legislation that those families were seeking. And that was legislation to raise the age limit, universal background checks and extremist protective orders. You know, Senator, we had that same feeling as we had tragically after Sandy Hook,

where we said, well, certainly this will change everything. A bunch of first graders slaughtered in their classrooms and you've all be a group of fourth graders slaughtered in their classrooms. And one of the last days of the school year, while they were watching a movie to end the year, I was reading again last night, some of the stories and that sweet 11 year old girl who played dead and smeared her friend's blood on her own body so that the shooter would not come back for her, thinking that she was dead, that she had to think through that and experience that. So is there any movement? Is there any hope for any movement in the state of Texas? There was some in the state of Connecticut.

I understand it's a completely different place than Texas. After Sandy Hook, they did get some things done. Is there any hope that there might be something else that can prevent the next Uvalde? Sadly, no. I mean, the governor, the lieutenant governor and the speaker of the House did not move any bills forward. One bill in the House got through the committee process. You had two Republicans vote for it, which was to raise the age limit. In the Senate, Dan Patrick refused to move anything forward. They passed two bills that were about straw purchases and background checks for juveniles, but those were already federal law. I don't think you get to pat yourself on the back for something that's already a federal law.

Indeed, these families have been injured day in and day out in Texas by the Republicans in power that have created this chaos. And even just today, and not to deviate from this story, you have a guy that wants to run for president making his announcement on the day of the worst shooting in the last 10 years in the United States. I think that's pretty tone deaf and pretty disrespectful to these families. Mr. Senator, as we just noted, there was a lot of scrutiny and criticism about the law enforcement response to that shooting. And of course, some discipline handed out to some there and Uvalde. What is your assessment or do you feel satisfied by the review of what went on? And do you feel more confident that, God forbid, something like this were to happen again, that the response would be better?

There's been no accountability and no real transparency. The Department of Public Safety, who had the most officers on scene, 91 officers, they claimed that they fired one guy who was actually allowed to retire, which was a guy named Juan Maldonado. Very recently, they supposedly fired a DPS ranger named Ryan Kendall, a Texas ranger. Mr. Kendall's still on, according to the Washington Post. They just put out a story today that he is actually still employed because he hasn't had his exit interview. That supposedly happened two months ago, and he's still getting paid by the Department of Public Safety. That after a memo was leaked, oh, I don't know, six months ago, eight months ago, where the Department of Public Safety said that no one would be fired from this incident.

Extreme failure, zero transparency, a Republican-controlled legislature that refuses to hear the truth as to what happened. And imagine being one of the families who's seen no accountability now, one year later. You have been as passionate and strong voice on all of these issues. I know the families appreciate that. Texas State Senator Roland Gutierrez, we will continue this conversation with you, sir. Thanks for being with us this morning.

We appreciate it. Thank you so much. Elise, it is, again, you have, there've been so many mass shootings in this last year, but you do have to stop and read the stories again and remember what happened. You can't just turn your head and move on from something like a bunch of fourth graders getting shot in their school. What police officers in this case stood outside the fact that we've become almost numb to it because it happens nearly every week, every week in some way, shape or form. It's just shocking that we are that stagnant as a society. You look at how guns have changed over the past couple of decades. And, you know, I mean, this isn't it's not about a shotgun. We're

talking about weapons of mass killing. And the laws have not caught up with what's on the market right now. And I just it's every day that this continues is unbelievable. And every day that parents have to worry that their child is going to get mowed down at school. It's just shocking. Yeah, we're going to go live to Uvalde coming up on the show, also coming up where things stand on the debt ceiling negotiations with just over a week until the default deadline. We'll get a live report from the White House and national co-chair for President Biden's 2024 campaign, Senator Chris Coons, will weigh in. Plus, the Brooklyn Bridge marks 140 years of traffic today. Acclaimed filmmaker Ken Burns joins us with his tribute to the New York City icon.

That's next on Morning Joe. Like the folks you meet on Like to plant my feet on the Brooklyn Bridge What a lovely view from Heaven looks at you from the Brooklyn Bridge. It was 140 years ago today. The Brooklyn Bridge opened to traffic for the very first time. And joining us now to reflect on what he calls, quote, possibly the greatest engineering triumph of the 20th, the 19th century. Emmy Award winning filmmaker Ken Burns.

The clip we just showed you was from Ken's Oscar nominated debut film about the Brooklyn Bridge that came out in 1981. Also with us, architecture critic for The New York Times, Michael Kimmelman. Good morning to you both. Good morning. So, Ken, that was your first. Yes, I said I was 1981. The thing was, I was trying to raise money. You know, it's PBS and I'm going to all these places, you know, where you're trying to get a thousand bucks or fifteen hundred bucks. And I look like I was 12 years old. And they would say, no, this kid is trying to sell me the Brooklyn Bridge. But we spent five and a half years from conception of doing it till the time it was broadcast. And it is without a question the greatest engineering feat of the of the 19th century.

And it's also and I think this is why Michael and I are still so excited about it. It's a work of art too. So here you have a functional thing, you know, Arthur Miller says at the end of their film, you see the city is fundamentally a practical utilitarian invention. And then you see this steel poetry sticking there. It's a shock. And it goads us to do something, as he put it, that would last and be beautiful. So Michael and I have made a short little film about this that The Times has posted today, which is a discussion of the bridge 140 years out. And I'm going to dinner there tonight. Oh, are you? To celebrate. And in fact, 40 years ago, I was the only non-Roblings,

they're the family who built it, my wife and my little baby, who's now 40, to watch the fireworks under that spectacular bridge. And it is. We're watching some of the film here, Michael. We were just saying, it has held up architecturally over those 140 years. Some things you say, oh, that was of its time. This is just a classic. It's the most enduring icon in New York City. And I think that's partly from what Ken said, that it remains for us a source of inspiration. It's like an aspirational thing. We see it and imagine like, how did they do this? They were building not just something that went across the river, but that sort of stood for New York's desire to be a really great, lasting, enduring place. So it's a great work of art.

John is our resident Brooklyn man. Yeah, I came— The view from the other side of the bridge. Yeah, I came over that bridge this morning. I'll say, at that hour, no traffic. No traffic. But as you sat down, we were speaking about how, Michael, that it's also symbolic of an age where we could do big things. And it feels like right now so many Americans feel like we can't.

How frustrating is that? It's really interesting. I mean, you know, as Ken points out in the earlier film he made, that was a moment when we did the transfinish, the transcontinental railway, the transoceanic cable, the Suez Canal, the invention of the light bulb and the telephone, all of this in the span of time that the Brooklyn Bridge was built. But mostly that the desire of the bridge to be something that spoke to New York as the great emerging city, that was its symbol.

Now, you know, it took us 100 years to build four lousy subway stations for the 2nd Avenue subway. You know, every project like this would get killed by opposition, both public opposition and a lot of government, you know, gridlock. Well, I guess I would ask, Ken, why were we able to do it then? It wasn't like there wasn't anything going on. It was it got this got approved two years after the Civil War ended. I think that's one of the points. I mean, first of all, let's just remember what a bridge does to us. Just a log over a stream.

Your heart is pity patch. So anything that connects is good, right? So there's this bedroom community, you know, south and east of Manhattan called Brooklyn. And they're sending workers there. And the ferries get clogged with ice in the wintertime. So they need a bridge. The Civil War has promoted the use of this new metal called steel. Roebling has has proved himself as the great architect of bridges. One out of every four bridges are are falling down in America.

So he's known for his stability and the beautiful network of cables that we love so much. The music of that bridge is the steel radiating stays that are so beautiful. They give the bridge the stability. So he proposes it. He's killed, you can't make this up, in the first few months of construction by an accident. And his young son, who's been in the Union Army, takes over. And of course, in the sinking of the towers, they have to do it underwater and under the seabed. And they get the bends, the compressed air necessary. And so people are dying. And in fact, the chief

engineer, Washington Roebling, the son of John Roebling, is stricken. And his wife, heretofore Victorian housewife, Emily Roebling, takes over and becomes his eyes and his ears. And exactly 140 years today, the first passenger across the Brooklyn Bridge in a carriage holding a rooster, a symbol of victory, was Emily Roebling. Because she was recognized as the person. I mean, this is as good a story as I know. And then you think the function, get people from Brooklyn to Manhattan and back again, was achieved, but they also achieved

this extraordinary work of art. I mean, it is one of the great works of art as well as engineering of the 19th century. And I justify you. I get the privilege when I'm in the city to walk over it at least once a day. And that network of cables can wake you up and just make you realize the glory of our possibilities. And maybe if enough people realize it, we can begin to demand that we can

do these things because we can still do these things. We just lack the kind of political will that Michael's talking about. Yeah, I mean, there's also, you know, that what Roebling did was, the genius of it was that it was an engineering feat, unlike anything. I mean, you have to imagine that the city was three, four or five story buildings, and this was a mountain built over, people walked across it, there were birds flying underneath them. Nobody had ever been in that kind of situation. But it was also a work of art because he builds these Gothic towers. And there's something like the Gothic cathedrals about what this was like. People watch this miracle being built. And for all the cost overruns and the scandals and, of course, the deaths, when it opened, it was like the biggest celebration New York had ever had.

It was the emergence of New York as the modern city, the unification of the boroughs and the sense of New York as a great city of possibility. And the pedestrian walkway, really, the view from the walkway. It's not on the side with the train rumbling about. It's above the traffic and elevated. So it creates a kind of public square. When you go through the doors of those Gothic towers, either from Brooklyn or from New York, which I do every day I'm here, you then enter in this place. And it's now filled with people every day, all the time. And there are people on vacations.

There's German this week. There's Italian that week. There's French this week. But people are getting married. There's not a morning that I go by where there's not someone out there with a photographer in the wedding dress and the groom and they're freezing. And it just is a place where you want to be memorialized. The late historian David McCullough said, it's like standing on the rim of the Grand Canyon. This is our Grand Canyon. This is man-made. Yeah. I think one of the, also the really beautiful small things, and if you didn't drive, you walk across it, you know that they put the pedestrian passageway, Roebling did, right at the center of the bridge. So the pedestrian, the human walking across this mountain is the center of the story. And there's a small thing, which is that it's wood planks.

Still. Still. So when you walk across it, you have as a tactile, there's a beautiful feeling to walking across it. It's not like just walking across a big, heavy concrete thing. It's very touching, actually. It is. And as beautiful as ever, 140 years later.

Happy birthday. Happy birthday, Brooklyn Bridge. You can hear more from, 140 years later. Happy birthday, Brooklyn Bridge. You can hear more from Ken and Michael about the legacy of the Brooklyn Bridge. We could talk to you guys all morning. You can see more at visit PBS dot com. Visit PBS dot com. Emmy award winning filmmaker Ken Burns and New York Times architecture critic Michael Kimmelman. Thank you both. I'm so glad PBS took you off at 12 years old to make this movie. You know, relax, child labor laws. Still in the news. To make the film, and thank God they did. Guys, thanks so much. Great to talk to you.

Thank you. Still ahead, a look at the stories making headlines in papers across the country. We're coming right back. A few minutes before the top of the hour, yet another state has approved a restrictive abortion ban in the wake of the Supreme Court's overturning of Roe v. Wade. The South Carolina legislature approved a bill that would ban nearly all abortions around six weeks of pregnancy. The state's Republican governor has promised to sign it immediately. The bill restores an abortion ban that took effect after the Supreme Court's decision, but was struck down by the state Supreme Court for violating South Carolina's right to privacy. Opponents of the new law have already said they will sue to stop it. The decision was

protested heavily, both by demonstrators outside the Senate and by lawmakers inside. A bipartisan group of female senators dubbed the sister senators filibustered to try and stop the vote. They had been successful in stopping previous abortion legislation, but could not stop a vote this time. South Carolina had become a destination for women in the South looking to have the procedure as neighboring states enacted bans. Look at this. Look at these states. Katty Kay, you know, I'm wondering what you think the impact of this will be. I see twofold demographically. I mean, we've already seen some studies that show that young women are choosing where they go to college as it pertains to where

these bans are not in effect because they don't want to go to a place where they can't get health care. And secondly, I can't imagine being a woman in this state trying to have a pregnancy, being fearful that there may be fetal abnormalities or some sort of problem and being left to bleed out in a parking lot, which has happened already. Yeah, I mean, we talk a lot, as we should do, about the politics of this heading up into the next election, and they're not good for Republicans. But we should never forget what this means for individual women. Twenty five states in the U.S. now have moved to restrict abortions since the overturning of Roe last June. And 14 of those states have basically

banned abortions. At six weeks, you don't know whether you're pregnant. Many women don't know whether they're pregnant in the timeframe that South Carolina is giving them. South Carolina had actually been a place where women could go in the South. Many of the states that have restricted or banned abortions have been in the South, and they need to go to other states. South Carolina had been something of a safe haven. So for a woman in Florida, for example, Mika, and we've spoken to women who had pregnancies that went wrong, who had fetal abnormalities, who risked something like septicis.

They have to go somewhere else to get an abortion. They were going to South Carolina. Now they can't do that anymore. It's going to put a lot of pressure on the state of Virginia and abortion providers in Virginia, because Virginia now remains really one of the last states in the South that will give women abortions. It just puts an awful lot of pressure on women who, for whatever reason, need to have a DNC process, whether it's because they need a termination for medical reasons,

whether it's because they have chosen to have a termination for their own mental health or life reasons. And those and those reasons are complicated. And it's going to put particular pressure on poorer women who find it hard to pay the money for the child care or for the travel to go and have those abortions. Katie Kay, thank you very much. Obviously, we'll be following this, especially as the presidential elections heat up.