Morning Joe - Morning Joe 5/30/24

Episode Date: May 30, 2024

The Morning Joe panel discusses the latest in U.S. and world news, politics, sports and culture

And then Trump tells you he's the greatest president. I love this one. He says he's the greatest president of black people in the history of America, including more than Abraham Lincoln. I mean, can you fathom that? Where in the hell? Like I said, I think he injected too much of that bleach in his skin. I think it affected his brain. President Biden drawing yet another contrast on the campaign trail, this time in Philadelphia, where he and the vice president made a pitch to black voters. We're going to have much more from their campaign stop in just a moment. Meanwhile, the former president was rage posting from the courthouse holding room while a

jury deliberated his fate in the criminal hush money case against him. We'll bring you expert legal analysis ahead of the jury reconvening later this morning. Plus, we'll go through a possible major shift in policy on the war in Ukraine as the Biden administration now appears open to allowing U.S. made weapons to be used in strikes in Russian territory. Really, I'm just looking at this now and. I mean, after all of this, they've dropped the charges. Oh. I mean, I... Breaking news.

After all... I mean, there was so much stuff. Can you believe that? You would think, after, like, all this coverage, and, like, it really seemed... They dropped the... They just dropped the charges. They were serious, and it's... Yeah.

I mean, Willie, I can't explain it. We can't explain it. Charges dropped. You just dropped the charges on the number one golfer in the world? Take us through it, Willie. Beautiful delivery. Nice setup. Yeah, Scottie Scheffler.

Thank you. You knew exactly where I was going the entire time, by the way, which makes you you. We sort of saw this coming yesterday. We talked about it. Louisville, Kentucky officials have dropped all charges against world number one golfer Scotty Scheffler. The hearing yesterday, the Jefferson County attorney said prosecutors will not pursue the case, ask for the charges to be dismissed. He said Mr. Scheffler's characterization that this was a big misunderstanding is corroborated by the evidence. And it goes on from there. So I think what Scotty Scheffler said that day at Valhalla Golf Club ahead of the PGA

Championship when he went out after having spent some time in a jail cell and shooting a 66, that this was a misunderstanding, his hope that it would be worked out. People looked at the video, saw it probably was a mistake by him and that perhaps the cop's original characterization of what happened wasn't quite accurate. The charges now, as you say, Joe, have been dropped against the world number one. There you go. I mean, the video evidence shows that what the police officer said wasn't true. It's a weird warning. It wasn't dragged.

And by the end, they're just saying, oh, he tore my pants. I don't know he tore his pants unless the guy guy when he came running up, knocking on his window. Hung his pants on the car. Hung his pants on. But here we go. There's no dragging in this entire process. What a weird scene. Well, and why?

I don't know why he would lie about it. Right. Don't know why they amped this up the way they did, but they did. And my gosh, we always support police officers whenever, you know, police officers should be supported. So this was weird. And the charges are now dropped. OK, let's get to all the news and also who we have with us this morning, along with Joe, Willie and me. We have the president of the National Action Network and host of MSNBC's Politics Nation, Reverend Al Sharpton. NBC News national affairs analyst John Heilman.

He's a partner and chief political columnist at Puck and deputy managing editor for politics at Politico. Sam Stein is with us this morning. And thank you for doing way too early for us. So a men reports of hand wringing from Democrats about President Joe Biden's reelection chances. The New York Times is out with a new piece this morning entitled Perhaps Lost in the Polling. The race for president is still close in it. Chief political analyst Nate Cohn writes that November's election will likely come down to just three states, Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. Where have we heard that before, Joe? As Cohen points out, Biden could lose every other swing

state. But if he wins those three, he will most likely win a second term. And for what they are worth, most polls show Biden right in the mix in the Rust Belt. That includes the Time Zone recent poll with Siena College, which sparked panic among Democrats earlier this month. That survey also shows Biden just running about even or even slightly better than his 2020 numbers, with two groups that traditionally lean Republican white voters and voters over 65. As Cohn puts it, quote, Biden has already done what would ordinarily be the hard part. The polls are not perfect. They've been off before and they'll be off again. They wouldn't really need to be off target by much at all for Mr. Biden to squeak out a victory. But even if the polls were exactly right in the sense that Mr. Trump would win if the election were held tomorrow by precise margins implied by the recent

polls, Mr. Biden would still have a very real chance to win in November. So you've talked a lot about this, but you've also lived it watching elections closely by experience. And it's sort of what you've been saying, although I'm all OK with the panic if you apply work to if panic inspires you to work hard, go for it. Right. And over the past several weeks, Democrats have been freaking out. You know, I. I just say in 2016, people freaked out when we said that Donald Trump could win. In 2020, I haven't even dared to say how likely I think it is that Joe, or in 2024, how likely I think it is that Joe Biden will win. Because I know everybody will freak out and say that I've got my head in the sand.

You look at the numbers. You look what Biden's sitting at right now. You look at the numbers. You look what Biden's sitting at right now. You look at the fact that he's had a low watermark. You look at the fact that the two areas that he should be having the most problem with white voters and men, older men, he's actually older, older Americans. He's actually doing very well. And my feeling has always been the same as what Nate Cohn said. He's already done the hard part. Right. He's already done the hard part. I always say in politics, in politics, conversion is the hardest thing to do. What Joe Biden has to do now was, Cohn says in this article, he needs to bring his base home. Black voters, Hispanic voters, young voters.

Much easier to say, come home. It's going to be OK. Stay with me here. We're facing a real and imminent danger. Much easier to say, come home, than say, hey, go to that other house over there that you've never been in before. Go. No. conversions are in politics. This is this is my Creston Colgate. If your family and I've told people this since I was 30, I think, no, don't convert.

If the family's been a Crest family their entire life, they're not going to switch to Colgate. That's, you know, 1980s, 1990s toothpaste wars. But it's like marketing. Biden just has to bring them home. And you look at these three states. They are very close. They are very tied. And what I always talk about is blocking and tackling. They are light years ahead right now. Light years ahead. The Biden team is organizing on the ground. Is this a is this a pep rally for Joe Biden? No, it's not. I'm just I just just like it wasn't a pep rally for for Trump in 16, whenever he said, oh, we can't win. You can't win. Yeah, you can. He can get 270. We were mocked and ridiculed and abused because we predicted the hurricane was coming in September and October. I'm here to tell you the freaking out, the Democratic freaking out is just so tiring.

And I think the thing that bothers me the most is they're freaking out about things in a national campaign. Right. They're freaking out whether it's about this obsession with the national race and the national polling, whether it's truth, social tweets, whether it's all the crazy things and confused things Donald Trump says at rallies. That's fine. But this race is not going to be won in the courthouse in Manhattan, regardless of the outcome of the case. It's going to be won in the courthouse in Manhattan, regardless of the outcome of the case. It's going to be won by knocking on doors in Kenosha, by planting yard signs in the suburbs of Detroit, by making sure you've got the Philly suburbs locked down and you get the margin you get by making phone calls, knocking. I'm sorry to go so far into this.

But again, the stupidity that I've been listening to over the past several months about how this race is over and, you know, Democrats are freaking out and Trumpers are so overconfident. John Heilman, it's just absolutely insane. It reminds me when I ran the first time. I would drive past state fairs and I would see all of my opponents and they would be waving to people at state fairs. And I would just drive by laughing. And then I would go to a neighborhood where I knew there were what I called super voters who voted every two years. And while they were waving at tens of thousands of people, I was knocking on doors, shaking hands, planting yard signs. That's how I won.

I didn't have money. Nobody knew who I was, but it was targeted. This political race this year is targeted. It's basically about seven, eight, nine congressional campaigns in Wisconsin, in Michigan, in Pennsylvania. And I thought the Nate Cohn article yesterday explained this better than any I've seen and explained why Biden, man, Biden's got as good a chance as he had in 2020 right now. Oh, well, good morning, Joe. And I will say, you know, last time we were talking about the New York Times on the air, you and I were having a healthy spirited exchange. And, you know,

you were pretty angry, annoyed, irritated at that last wave of Siena battleground state polling. And I guess, you know, someone over at The New York Times may have been listening. This seemed like a useful corrective on that front, this piece by Nate Cohen and the paper kind of acknowledging that without getting into any kind of debate over the methodology of those swing state polls, noting the evident truth, which is, you know, it's a narrow path. I mean, I don't think there are very many Democrats who would not like to win. They would like to rather win this race with more than exactly 270 electoral votes. And yet, to your point, you know, this has always been the challenge

for Biden. Those three states, the blue wall, if he if the blue wall stays intact and to your point, another way to think about that, about coming home is if Joe Biden can do in 2024 exactly what he did in 2020, he'll win those three states. He'll get 270 electoral votes and he'll be reelected. As I said, I think, you know, a lot of Democrats would like to have some some margin to play with. I continue to say that even in those other states, Nevada, Arizona, Georgia, North Carolina, it's still a margin of error race in those states. And I'm going to keep saying that until it's not a margin of error race. But, you know, to your point, about 800000 voters across those three states, Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, 800000 voters out of three out of 350 million people in America. Those 800000 voters, unlike Joe Scarborough, the Biden campaign does have money.

The Biden campaign doesn't have to bring those people home on the basis of just Joe Biden's charm. They have they have more money than the's charm. They have more money than the Trump campaign. They have more resources on the ground in those three states. They have more experience, having done it before four years ago, about how to get those people to come out. And they have other things like this trial, which, you know, on the margin, what do they need to do to get those people to come home? Remind those people of what it was like when Donald Trump was president four years ago and remind those people of who Donald Trump is. I think the trial, especially if there's a conviction, helps in that effort. So they have a lot of clubs in their bag here. And again, the path to 70 is not a comfortable, not a comfortable

path to walk. That's a tight rope to walk. It's a rope that they have walked before. Well, and with you, I'm not saying he can't win the Sunbelt States. I think people like you, people who are suggesting the Sunbelt States are gone, obviously haven't followed presidential elections in Nevada over the past half century and haven't seen what's been happening in Arizona over the past four to six years. So those races are still in play. And I think my only if I were to criticize the Robert De Niro front, I think I would say, Willie, again, just explaining what type of race this is. I wouldn't send him down to the courthouse in southern Manhattan. I would send him to Kenosha and I'd say, go into a living room of a union worker. Just sit down and talk to him.

Have the kid film it. Put it up on TikTok. Put it up on YouTube. I can get in people's homes in Kenosha, get in people's homes in Bucks County, Pennsylvania, get in people's homes where this race is going to be won or lost and let people see you were fighting hard for every one of their votes because that's how the next president will be elected. And there are plans to do just that. And speaking of one of those battlegrounds in Pennsylvania yesterday, President Biden was there with Vice President Kamala Harris rallying in Philadelphia. The event was the launch of the campaign's planned outreach, a big enthusiastic event speaking to black voters. Because black Americans voted, Kamala and I are president and vice president of the United States because of you. That's not hyperbole. Because you voted, Donald Trump has defeated former president.

And with your vote, with your vote in 2024, we're going to make Donald Trump a loser again. Maya Angelou said, when someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. You got it, kid. You got it. I've shown you who I am and Trump has shown you who he is. And today, Donald Trump is pandering and peddling lies and stereotypes for your vote so he can win for himself, not for you. Well, Donald Trump will have a message for you. Not in our house and not in our watch. Folks, the threat that Trump poses is greater in his second term than his first. It's clear that when he lost in 2020,

something literally snapped in the sky. No, I'm serious. That's why January 6th happened, when he unleashed an insurrection. Now he's running again, and he's clearly unhinged. He calls insurrections who stormed the Capitol patriots, patriots. If reelected, he wants to pardon, quote, every one of them. Let me ask you, what do you think he would have done on January 6th if black Americans had stormed? Think about this. What do you think would have happened if black Americans had stormed the Capitol? I don't think he'd be talking about pardons. If he wins a second term, I promise you he's going to go even further.

So all of this is to say, who sits in the White House matters. It matters. For it matters for the people of America and for people around the world. So, Rev, this was the beginning, really, of a concerted effort by the Biden-Harris campaign to reach out to black voters. This was at Girard, a school that's predominantly black. They're talking at faith centers, churches, kind of places you spend a lot of your time. What do they need to do to do what Joe's talking about,

which is just to bring the Democratic base back home and convince them that they deserve another term? They need to keep doing what they're doing now, and even more so. You know, they've done our conferences. The president Biden spoke at our National Action Network convention virally and engaged all of us. They've gone to some churches. So is the vice president. But I also think they need to show the contrast when you have on one side President Joe Biden standing there, as he did yesterday, Gerard, with the vice president, who was a U.S. senator and was the attorney

general of the state of California, contrast that with Donald Trump, who went to the Bronx for black and brown voters with two rappers on the indictment. Which black America do you want to project? They ought to say the voters. We stood and did the George Floyd justice and policing executive order when we couldn't get Republicans to make it law. He stood and supported saying we don't want to have the police help any kind of reform in any way. Donald Trump did. Donald Trump was for qualified immunity, which was in the George Floyd bill.

So when you contrast what each stands for, then when you have a man saying that I've been the best president for black America since Abe Lincoln is to call us stupid. I mean, he's really insulting our intelligence. So you've been better for blacks than FDR, than John Kennedy, than Lyndon Johnson and the Great Society, than Barack Obama. I mean, you can argue what you want to argue about what you think you did. But to say you were better than them means you think we're moronic. And I think that if they keep contrasting who they are and who Trump is and showing what they have done, they have a record. Unemployment among blacks is lower than it's been in two generations. We've seen them deliver in terms of the infrastructure. We've seen them in terms of inflation reduction, how it has disproportionately helped blacks. They have a record to run on HBCU money.

Run on your record, show your contrast, show who you're running against. And I agree with Joe. Show that this is home. Donald Trump has never been home for us. He's not even been in the neighborhood. Let's known the house. It is true, Rev. Incredibly patronizing at every turn. Remember,

he said black voters like me because I have a mugshot. Now I'm one of them. Can you imagine? He thinks that's going to resonate with black voters. Well, the way it resonates with some black voters is we remember the mugshots that he wanted all of us to have when he wanted the death penalty for the Central Park five. So he should never bring up mugshots and blacks in the same sentence. So, Joe, the message was there yesterday, reaching out to black voters and just taking a look at the event itself. It was a big event. The crowd was genuinely enthusiastic. And when we talk about that contrast that the Trump campaign and his supporters try to paint Joe Biden a certain way as being old or whatever it is. Again, just put up the split screen of two events. Put up that event yesterday at the president

United States with that crowd and then just watch the hour or 90 minutes or however long the ramblings go on of a Donald Trump event. And tell me who's losing it when you watch those. And, you know, and the crazy thing is just age posting just yesterday, Willie, I had somebody I know very well call me up and tell me that. Oh, and I get this call every three months. Oh, such and such. He's known Joe Biden for 50 years, went into the White House and they were shocked and they were just appalled. He's completely lost it. He's staring off into space. He's he he's he's lost control of blah, blah, blah. You know, I kept hearing this before I went in and actually had lunch with him and sat

and talked to him about foreign policy for close to three hours and thought, gee, the guy, this guy, actually, you can tell he's been doing this for 50 years because he's smarter than any politician that I've talked to. We, you know, we talk to people every day and we know who can follow us and who can't follow us. And I don't think I can get 15 minutes of foreign policy from Donald Trump. So but I heard that yesterday and then I saw this speech last night and I'm like, you know, Republicans just OK, my my my wife's telling me to stop saying people are acting stupid. You need to be more valid. I'm going to be more validating that Republicans are blinded by their hatred of Joe Biden and they don't understand that they're actually hurting themselves. They

always do this. They set expectations so low. Will he drool during the State of the Union? Will he be able to complete? And then he knocks it out of the park. They always set expectations low. They always lie about him. They all their running thing is that he's he's lost his mind. He's not cogent. It's not true. So when he shows up, he wins the expectations game. That's all politics is. That's so that's part one of it.

But part two, Sam, I do need to get back to this because my better half does say I need to validate people. It's a scary time. Who may be panicking over Donald Trump winning because the stakes are so high. I said the stakes are so high. I wasn't really talking that much about Democrats other than those that are sitting in cocktail parties all the time talking about how Joe Biden's going to lose. Maybe you'd want to pick up the telephone and ask how you can help instead of whining all the time. But it is it is a frightening time. The stakes are higher than they've ever been. And so obviously, I do understand why people

are panicking. I guess I would just ask them to actually focus on the reality that's in front of them instead of all the things that frighten them. Yeah, I think that one of the issues here is that people don't, not everyone recognizes the heightened stakes, right? If you look at some of these polls, you know, we've forgotten collectively about what 2020 was like, COVID and the shutdowns and even January 6th to a degree has receded in the collective consciousness. And I think one of the hurdles that the Biden campaign has to overcome is to remind voters

of that period, that the Trump presidency didn't end in 2019. And I think events like yesterday are designed to do that. That's why he held that event. That's why he evoked January 6th during the event. That's why you hear him routinely say Donald Trump snapped after he lost elections, to remind voters of that. Ultimately, though, you know, I think the issue here is not so much, you know, will black voters, will young voters, will Hispanic voters flock to Donald Trump? I mean, that's obviously the problem. I think the issue for Biden is, can he get them re-engaged? Can he get them enthusiastic about his candidacy? Or are they going to be lethargic and not engage in the political process? Because I, you know, Joe,

you and I have talked about this. Nate Cohen's analysis is right. And not only is it right, it's sort of counterintuitive. It's very rare or has been rare for a Democrat to do well with senior voters, 65 plus. Biden has done that. And these polls show that if you are a likely voter, if you are among the cohort that traditionally does go out and vote, you're maybe inclined to vote for Joe Biden over Donald Trump. That is rare. It's usually Democrats who need to engage the less active, the more passive voting crowd. Now Biden's hurdle is can he get those traditional Democratic constituencies not to shift from Trump back to him, but to engage them in the political process? And I think he's just being bogged down by a lot of issues.

One of them is his own reluctance to be a public communicator. He's going to step that up, obviously, as the campaign progresses. But two is obviously inflation and the war, frankly, when it comes to young voters. Yeah, you know, John Heilman, I want to circle, I want to underline what Sam also said. Again, not a pep rally just for people who have never run political campaigns before or looked at crosstabs or understand politics up close. What Sam said is just so right. And that is the people with the highest propensity of the voter, older white voters. If Joe Biden were losing older white voters the way

the mainstream media suggests he is, you know, oh, he's got a working class. They love Trump because he sat in a tractor trailer because he likes. No. As as Nate Cohn said, older white voters are stubbornly sticking with Biden. And that's been as much of a surprise over the past couple of years to me as has been the fact that younger voters and some black men and black Hispanics are moving away. So so, again, if you're Biden, you you, as Cohn said, you like the fact that the hard part's done. Now you need to bring your voters home. Right. And I and again, I hate to give Sam credit for anything, although I don't know if you caught him this morning on way too early, Joe. His questioning related to the problems with the price of orange juice. He was on the business section on way too early this morning.

Sam was talking about, man, that discussion of the alternatives to oranges, other citrus fruits that we could use if there's a spike in orange juice prices, it was compelling. I know, totally, really compelling. But even more compelling, Sam's analysis just now, which is something that the Biden campaign knows well, it is not the concern about African-American voters, young voters, and Hispanic voters, these core elements of the Democratic coalition, the concern is not that anybody really thinks they're going to go flock off to Donald Trump. The concern is that they stay home, that in a very, very close election in all of those battleground states, you know, if a large chunk of any of those parts of the coalition decide to just say, screw it, I'm not going to vote.

That's a problem for the Biden campaign. The upside there, to your point, Joe, is you're getting you're not trying to persuade them in a lot of cases to come back to Joe Biden. You're just trying to persuade them to do what they did in 2020 and to realize the stakes and what a devastating outcome it would be for their interests, for the interests of young voters, that pocketbook interests. They are focused more on the economy than they are on Gaza. We see that in the polling for African-American and Latino voters, that a Trump presidency, a Trump re-election would be terrible for them. So just please do what you did back from the Biden campaign's point of view. Just do what you did back in 2020.

You're right. That is the easier sell than trying to get older white voters who have drifted away from the Democratic coalition over the last 20 years to come back home. Those guys are sticking with Biden. That's a big part of why they can be optimistic in those three Midwestern states. All right, John Hellman, thank you so much. And still ahead on Morning Joe, we're going to break down what happened in court yesterday during the first day of jury deliberations in Donald Trump's criminal hush money trial.

Plus, Secretary of State Anthony Blinken signals the U.S. may lift restrictions on how Ukraine uses American-made weapons against Russia. We'll dig into how that potential policy change could impact the ongoing war. You're watching Morning Joe. We're back in 90 seconds. It's a beautiful picture of New York City, the sun coming up, 6.31 in the morning. On a Thursday, the jury in the Donald Trump hush money criminal trial will resume deliberations this morning. Yesterday, the jurors sent two notes back to the judge.

The first asked to review portions of testimony from former National Enquirer publisher David Pecker and from former Trump attorney and fixer Michael Cohen. The second note was for the jury instructions to be read to them again. Let's bring in former litigator and MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin. She was in the courtroom yesterday afternoon. Lisa, good morning. So another day of deliberation today, I guess about four and a half hours of it yesterday for this jury. What do you read into the two notes that were sent back, the substance of them?

What do you think the jury was trying to get at here? I think the jury is trying to understand the formation of the conspiracy and Donald Trump's participation in it and is taking very seriously the instructions of Josh Steinblas, who said repeatedly to them that David Pecker's testimony was critical and that they should look back at it. So, for example, Willie, at the end of his summation, he was trying to get the jurors to focus on evidence of Donald Trump's direct involvement. And one of the things that he said to them was, you will recall that Pecker testified that after that meeting took place, Mr. Trump personally called Pecker to discuss the McDougal matter. And he explained that the defendant told him that he had spoken to Michael and that Michael had told him about Karen. So that's corroboration that Mr. Cohen is keeping Mr. Trump informed at every step. They went on to discuss that as Pecker and Trump went on to discuss whether the defendant

should buy the story. Now, they got an instruction yesterday on something called accessorial liability and I'm sorry, accomplice liability and accomplice liability basically means that Michael Cohen's word alone isn't enough to convict Trump because Michael Cohen is Trump's accomplice. What they have to do is assure themselves that there's enough corroborating evidence that Trump can be convicted. Where do you get that? You get that from David Pecker, who is one of the only people here other than Michael Cohen, who says, I spoke directly to Trump about the conspiracy. And he affirmed to me that he knew what was going on and that he wanted to be involved with it. Yeah. And some of this testimony goes back to that first meeting back in August of 2015. They want to understand that relationship and how close Donald Trump was to it. I want to get some clarification from you about the jury instructions.

Donald Trump, some of his minions going on cable networks suggesting that the judge told the jury that they don't have to be unanimous. That's not true. Can you explain what this little dispute may be about? Yeah, that's not true at all. First of all, they have to be unanimous that the business records here were falsified. And that is the crime that was charged with respect to what makes falsification of business records a felony. They also have to be unanimous that Trump intended to conceal a conspiracy to promote his own election in 2016. And they have to be unanimous that he did so or that he the conspiracy was through unlawful means. Here's the part where they can have differences of opinion. What are those unlawful means? Josh Steinglass gave them five or six different options that kind of fall into three categories. One is violations of the Federal Election Campaign Act through unlawful campaign contributions.

One is falsification of other business records, like Michael Cohen's submission of forms to the bank through which he opened the account that he used to pay Stormy Daniels. The third are the tax forms that the Trump organization prepared when they were showing Michael Cohen's, quote unquote, income, that income of four hundred and twenty thousand dollars. That was really the reimbursement to him. You, Willie, you, Rev, me, Lisa, we can all have different opinions on what those unlawful means are, but we all have to agree that there was a conspiracy, that it was executed by unlawful means. Donald Trump is playing fast and loose here with the concept of unanimity. Lisa, isn't that the judge saying that and breaking that down?

Isn't that a major blow to the defendant? Because what the defense would have needed is for him to say you need a unanimous of one of the three or four or all of them. And when he broke down that you don't have to agree on the elements as long as you all agree on one of the elements, even if they differ. Isn't that easier mark for the prosecution to reach and harder for the defense to argue against? Yeah, it's easier for the prosecution in the sense that everybody can have a different take on what the unlawful means are. But I want to be really clear, to the extent that the unlawful means is an element of the conspiracy, everybody has to agree that there are unlawful means. And more importantly, you don't have to prove that the conspiracy succeeded. You just

have to prove that in falsifying business records, Donald Trump had an intent to conceal the conspiracy that was formed between and among him, Michael Cohen, David Pecker, and a host of other people who were sort of bit participants in that drama. Sam. Hey, Lisa, it's Sam here. We're, you know, we're all sort of looking for tea leaves, right? And I want to go back to the original point you were making, which is the significance of the Pecker testimony. You know, why did that stand out as a significant testimony for the jury to say, we want to look at that? And can we, and should we, would even be responsible to read into that about both what we can expect for a verdict and how fast this deliberation process might proceed? So let's start with the second part first. I don't think you can expect anything from it in terms of the rapidity.

I think one takeaway is that these jurors, despite exhausting closing arguments here, they were paying rapt attention because they came back to the judge yesterday with a four-part request for readbacks of specific testimony. Now, your question about why Pecker? First of all, Pecker was the first witness in what is now in week seven of this trial with 22 different witnesses on 22 trial days. So he is further away from their memory in terms of what exactly he said. On the other hand, Josh Steinglass repeatedly invoked Pecker and his closing argument, talked about his testimony, characterized his testimony. I read you that passage earlier, characterizing that testimony. This jury is like, hey, I want to hear that for myself. I want to hear how that went again. And I want to assure myself that to the extent that Pecker is corroborating Cohen, there are two accounts are basically similar enough that I can assure myself

that Pecker's testimony means that Cohen is also telling the truth here. Drew, we're back 930 this morning. Judge Mershon says they can work late if they need to, but no later than six o'clock. They got all day today to consider whether or not to find guilty of a crime. A former president of the United States, MSNBC legal correspondent, Lisa Rubin. Lisa, thanks as always. Mika. Yeah, thanks, Lisa. All right.

The Israeli military says it has seized control of a border that separates Gaza and Egypt. The area is known as the Philadelphia Corridor, Philadelphia Corridor. The IDF says it found about 20 Hamas tunnels and gaining control of the boundary will cut off the terrorist group's access to supplies. The move, however, could complicate Israel's relationship with Egypt as the corridor is considered a key buffer zone. Israel, meanwhile, is signaling the war in Gaza could continue through at least the end of the year. The country's national security adviser made the comment yesterday, saying he expects to see another seven months of combat in order to, quote, shore up our achievement. U.S. Secretary of State

Anthony Blinken was asked about that while in Moldova and expressed his frustration with Israel's lack of a post-war plan. It has to ask whether, and especially in the absence of a plan for the day after in Gaza, further incremental gains against Hamas, but gains that may not be durable in terms of Hamas' defeat in the absence of a plan, how that stacks up against some of the, again, unintended but horrific consequences

of military action in a place where the people you're going after are so closely embedded with civilians. Secretary Blinken also spoke about the war in Ukraine and suggested the Biden administration could be open to tolerating strikes by the Ukrainian military inside Russia using American-made weapons. We're committed to Ukraine succeeding as a country. We're committed to Ukraine winning the war. And I think we've shown that through the support that we provided and many other countries provided. We haven't encouraged or enabled strikes outside of Ukraine. But Ukraine, as I've said before, has to make its own decisions about the best way to effectively defend itself.

We're going to make sure that it has the equipment it needs to do that. Every step along the way, we've adapted and adjusted as necessary. And so that's exactly what we'll do going forward we're always listening we're always learning and we're always making determinations about what's necessary to make sure that ukraine can effectively continue to defend itself and we'll continue to do that let's bring in former reporter for the wall street journal matthew brzezinski. Matthew, first of all, would love your reaction to what Anthony Blinken has been saying and obviously a follow up on what Zelensky is pleading for from not only Americans, but also other NATO allies. Well, if I were a betting man, I would wager that American-made missiles will be hitting Russian military installations within Russian territory probably within the month.

We've already seen that the British and the French have said the Ukrainians can use their scalp missiles to hit Russian territory because, you know, the Russians are basically hiding behind their border. They have their missile batteries, their artillery batteries just inside of Russia, and they're hitting Ukrainian targets and the Ukrainians can't hit them back with Western weapons. Well, that's about to change. And I think the war is going to escalate considerably because of this. Right. And also, obviously, the Russians are on the front foot right now, leaning forward because they don't have to worry about attacks behind their lines. So this really does change the entire equation, right? They can't

keep pushing as aggressively toward Kiev if they have to worry about their rear flank. Absolutely, yes. You know, this has been a boom for the Russians, that the Ukrainians have had one hand tied behind their back. And to actually hit the Russians, they've had to use mostly homemade drones. Now, with sophisticated Western weaponry, they're going to go after very high value targets, things that are extremely expensive to replace. And this is going to change certainly the financial dynamic of the war. And this may be one of the reasons why we've seen what many are calling a purge within the Russian military in the last month, because Putin is getting quite worried about his finances. So it's very interesting, Matthew, over the last week, we had been in our discussions over the phone.

You had been telling me about Putin's purge, the purge that was coming, why he was doing it. And then, of course, we've since seen reporting from British papers. The New York Times followed up with it the past couple of days as well. But you were telling me about it last week and explained why. Could you explain to those watching why Vladimir Putin has begun this purge? Yeah, I mean, it's I'm not even sure we can call it a purge. I think he is sending a message to the entire military industrial complex in Russia that the system of sanctioned corruption, which is a pillar of his regime, is no longer a luxury that he can afford. Russia, he didn't budget for a war that is going into year three. Russia is up to 8% of GDP on military spending. That is four times the NATO threshold. We here in the United States Western banks. He's had to raise taxes very recently. And, you know, for him to go after what is effectively a pillar of his regime, corruption,

means that he's really worried, you know, that he may have to go. And he hinted that the Soviets in the 1980s went up to 13% of GDP. What he didn't say is that that bankrupted them. And he is facing potential financial ruin unless he cracks down on corruption. And this is a very big deal. You know, to be a successful dictator, and he is a, you know, by all arguments, the most successful dictator in the modern age, you need two things, carrot and sticks. You need the sticks, of course, military, secret police. But the carrot is you need to reward your loyal followers by giving them positions in government and in state-owned companies where they have a free hand to raid the cookie jar. And this ensures their loyalty. For him now

to be taking out that pillar of his regime shows that I think he is really seriously worried about where this war is going and whether Russia can afford it, frankly. Yeah. And of course, one of the reasons why the war went so badly for so long for Vladimir Putin is because there was so much corruption and the investments in military infrastructure were obviously far weaker than anyone would have expected. Former Wall Street Journal reporter Matthew Brzezinski, as always, thank you so much. I look forward to talking to you again very soon. Coming up, New York Governor Kathy Hochul is going to be our guest and she's going to tell us about her new legislation addressing how social media companies target

children. Plus, we're going to show you the major meltdown yesterday at Citi Field, which led to the Mets releasing one of their pitchers. That's all I had on Morning Joe. Thank you. you just spend the rest of the hour listening to that duke ellington louis armstrong playing together on the ed Sullivan Show in 1961. The music legends are two of the subjects featured in the new book, The Jazzmen. How Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong and Count Basie transformed America. The book examines the cultural contributions of those three Americans beyond their music. Joining us now, the author of Jazzmen, former Boston Globe reporter, New York Times bestselling author Larry Tye.

And Mike Barnicle joins the conversation as well. Larry, it's great to see you. Congratulations on this book. Obviously, it's about a lot more than that beautiful music we heard there. So in what ways did they help to begin the transformation of America. So I think through the magnificence of their melodies, they opened America's ears and souls to black artistry, black genius and black equal rights. So what let's let's go back because it predates the clip we saw there in 1961. What was happening in America at the time that they began their rise? So this was early years of the civil rights movement. And as Martin Luther King said, we don't get to social justice goals in a straight line. And I think what happened was white men who would never have let a black cross their threshold, wooed their sweethearts to the

music of a gravel-throated Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington, white women who would have walked to the other side of the street if a black man came towards them in the privacy of their own living room, kicked off their high heels, and tapped their toes to the Count Basie band. And I think this is how, for once, race faded away and America just listened. You know, Larry, the incredible thing about this book and these three guys and the moment in history that they were so popular is that what they did for a living, the music they played, people's ears reacted to it. Geez, these guys are wonderful. But people's eyes, no, you can't come in here because you're black. And one of the pivotal figures, Louis Armstrong, Louis Armstrong.

I mean, you know, we love Louis Armstrong. 1957, Orville Faubus shuts down the Little Rock schools. And Louis Armstrong says what these people, what Orville Faubus has done to my people here in the South, this government can go to hell. A remarkable moment in civil rights history. So a remarkable moment up until that moment and up until Louis Armstrong called our war hero president Dwight Eisenhower gutless. Eisenhower wasn't sending in troops to protect those kids. I don't think it was a coincidence that Louis Armstrong called him gutless. And right afterwards, Eisenhower sent in the troops. And it's because Louis Armstrong had that kind of crossover appeal that we would say later as a term crossover, because he wasn't just some guy that was considered at that time in the way left.

This was Louis Armstrong, who is an American idol. And he took that stand when he didn't have to. When most artists, particularly black artists who just started getting accepted by big record companies, would not have said that Louis Armstrong stood up very strongly. He stood up strongly. He was accused of being an Uncle Tom, and he showed in Little Rock and throughout his life that that was unfair. The two most recognizable cultural figures, American cultural figures around the world in those years were Mickey Mouse and Louis Armstrong. He was a symbol of what America could be. And yet in his home country,

he would be the star at a Las Vegas casino and have to go in through the kitchen. Talk to us about Duke Ellington, because one of the things that Duke Ellington and a representative aside from such a great musical history was he brought elegance, black elegance that became fashionable in the Harlem Renaissance. He brought it to the American mainstream. You look at Ellington and in politics at that time, Adam Clayton Powell, it was this this era of elegant black excellence that he personified. I told you I ended up going to see his body with my mother and ended up in the room with the body alone because she loved Ellington. I was only about 18 and 19. I think he died 73, 74. But talk about what Ellington represented in terms of of bringing black excellence and elegance to the American mainstream. So can I tell you a quick story from Ellington's youth? When he was a kid growing up in Washington and he would come down the long staircase in his house, he would tell his nephews to bow to him.

He would tell his nieces to curtsy and he would say, applaud, applaud, because someday I'm going to be known as Duke Ellington. He crowned himself aristocracy. He lived up to that. And he decided he thought that jazz should be renamed Negro music because he thought it was telling the story of black America. And he made it tell the story of black America. And yet one night when he went to a Virginia hotel that was segregated, he was told he would have an extra charge for the sheets and pillowcases because, of course, they would have to burn them the next day. The kind of indignities that American aristocracy had to tolerate were just mind boggling. And Larry, they weren't just passive participants in the civil rights movement, they weren't just passive participants

in the civil rights movement. It wasn't just that their music was the soundtrack. They knew the impact they were having, right? They were friends with Martin Luther King Jr. Many, some of them traveled with Martin Luther King Jr. In what ways did they participate beyond the music? So when Martin Luther King first met Duke Ellington in the streets of Chicago, they embraced. They didn't have to say anything, but they understood. King understood what Ellington and those jazz men were doing in opening America to all the things that he was trying to promote in terms of equal rights. And what they did was they joined Siddons. They spoke out at Little Rock. In 1945, on the cusp of World War II, just at the end of World War II, Count Basie said, I will not play with my band in any venue

that is not integrated and that will refuse my integrated band. They said things that were revolutionary at the time. And I think they were quiet insurrectionists laying the groundwork and writing the soundtrack for the civil rights movement in America. Courage to go along with all that talent. The new book is titled The Jazzmen, How Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong and Count Basie Transformed America. It is excellent. It's available now.

New York Times bestselling author Larry Tai. Larry, thanks so much. Great to have you.