Morning Joe - Morning Joe 5/3/23

Episode Date: May 3, 2023

Texas manhunt ends after suspect accused of killing 5 neighbors found hiding in laundry pile

Hopefully we're in good shape on the debt ceiling. I can't imagine anybody ever even thinking of using the debt ceiling as a negotiating wedge. And I said, I remember to Senator Schumer and to Nancy Pelosi, would anybody ever use that to negotiate with? They said, absolutely not. That's a sacred element of our country. They can't use the debt ceiling to negotiate. That's President Trump in 2019. Maybe Kevin McCarthy did not hear that moment. But then President Donald Trump making the case you cannot use the debt ceiling as a negotiating wedge. But that's exactly what the House speaker is doing

right now. Of course, we'll have the latest in the fight over the debt ceiling and a possible plan B for House Democrats. Meanwhile, the Biden administration has plans to send active duty troops now to the southern border as soon as next week. We will explain what the military personnel will be doing down there. Also ahead, new testimony in the civil trial against Donald Trump. It comes as the former president decides not to take the stand in his own defense. Plus, some new reporting this morning on text messages that ultimately led to Tucker Carlson's firing. We also will have a look at the latest aid package headed to Ukraine as its forces prepare for a spring offensive against Russia's army.

And writers expected back on the picket lines today as the WGA strike is already impacting several shows late night going dark, for starters. Good morning. Welcome to Morning Joe. It is Wednesday, May 3rd. With us, we have the host of Way Too Early, White House Bureau Chief of Politico, Jonathan Lemire, former White House Director of Communications to President Obama, Jen Palmieri. She's also co-host of Showtime's The Circus

and former chairman of the Republican National Committee, our good friend Michael Steele. Good morning to you all. Joe, Little Red Sox, W last night, Yankees got a win. We remain only one game behind you in last place in the AL East. Very exciting. We're moving on up, just like the Jeffersons. We're moving on up.

Yeah, we may be in the cellar, baby. Last place, but come on. Watch out. I gotta say, you look at the Orioles. They're just such an exciting team. 20-9, man. That is, I feel so happy for their fans. It's going to

be exciting. It's a long season, as we always say, Willie. And Judge is hurt again. He had a great year last year. Avoided injuries, but doesn't start it back. But Jonathan Lemire, our Red Sox baby. You know, Barnacle, the cynicism of Barnacle.

I mean, I don't quite get it. He does not like this team. Jack and I love watching every night. They are so exciting. They are the little engine that could. There was a time when the sight of home runs sailing over the Green Monster would put a twinkle in Mike Barnacle's eye, but no longer, apparently, Joe.

The Dirt Sox just not doing enough for him. Look, we're three games over.500. That is the high watermark of the season. But to your point, this team has been pretty resilient. Look, they're flawed. We know they're flawed. But they've had a lot of fight. They've had a number of games this year where they've fallen behind or they've even blown leads and come

back to win. And guys are stepping up. It's a testament to the manager, Alex Cora. Connor Wong, we're seeing here, the hero last night. Two home runs. A nice win for the Sox. And to your point about the Orioles, that's a team that obviously struggled for a long time. A lot of high draft picks. Those guys have come up through the system. They're on

the Major League roster. That's a great baseball town with a great park. It's fun to see. It is fun to see, and it's so amazing being able to watch all these games on your phone. They're moving so quickly. It's so fun.

You know, times, Jonathan, haven't always been so easy for Willie and me. And I think about this, especially on his birthday. Oh, man. I'm going to... We were in Turkey in 1971. My birthday locked up that year.

Yeah, that's tough. It's bad. There's an old Turkish saying that I scrawled on the wall for him before he woke up. And when something like, I don't know, we shall wear golden robes and eat the fatted lamb like Ottoman kings. Willie remembers this. It's all I could give him that year. It's all I could give him that year. But look at where we've come. Look at where we've come, Willie.

All these years, a happy. This is my way. Happy birthday. I'm saying happy birthday. You know, I mean, happy birthday, Willie. Thanks, Joe. I'd love to say we were wrongfully detained, but we deserve to be in that cell in Turkey for that stretch we did there. Not proud of what we did, but we've come out the other side. I think we've done OK for ourselves. Not allowed to go. You're not allowed to go back.

No, no. Yeah. Not allowed. Can't go back for a couple of decades at least. But, yeah, you know, it's like, you know, Jen, some people give Hallmark cards, right? Do you want part of this? This is what I do. And it's like Jen said after, you know, she was kind enough to pick me up from the Turkish prison and she put her arm around me. And even though she was only four years old at the time, and she said, Joe, we're stronger in

the broken places. God makes us stronger in the broken places. And she said, Joe, we're stronger in the broken places. God makes us stronger in the broken places. And I said, thank you very much, Jim Palmieri. What are you looking forward to in 1972? Well, I'm like sitting next to Willie here. I can tell you, he's just really overcome with like the warmth of your birthday, which is really heartfelt. It's an emotional. It's how we do it. It's firing. Hey, Joe. I had a woman come up to me yesterday in the airport. Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

I was just going to say, Joe, the most fascinating part was when Willie made a little birthday cake out of a bar of soap. To me, it's just a gift to myself. A moving moment. It is, It is. As Aaron Copeland wrote about, it is simple gifts. It is simple gifts like that. But anyway, it was very nice. Willie, I've got to tell you, I was flying back from Atlanta.

I interviewed Tyler Perry yesterday. Just an extraordinary man. An extraordinary story. Here's a guy who was homeless. He was living in a car. And there were times that things got so bad, he was thinking about taking his own life. And he said it was his faith and his mom that pulled him through and took a tour around of his Atlanta studios yesterday. Just an extraordinary man. So we're going to be going to be playing some of that over the next few days.

But but as I was coming back from the airport, I was really taken by how many people were coming up to me saying, wish wish me a happy birthday and make sure to remember Willie's birthday tomorrow. And I'm sitting there going, these people, I'm telling you, everybody knows your birthday's May the 3rd. It was really nice of them. Well, you know, we celebrated Mika's very nicely. We had also a beautiful event for her daughter Carly last night. It was an amazing young artist. We got to go see some of her art.

So there was, we have that May 2nd, May 3rd connection that we've had together for the last, gosh, 16 years that we've been together. So I think we pair those the two and the three together. People can remember it pretty easily. So thank you, Joe, for your sincere Turkish birthday wishes. We appreciate it. Yes. And this will all be taken out in post, which is great. Yeah.

Let's turn to the headline this morning. We begin with the multi-day manhunt for the suspect accused of killing five of his neighbors, including a child. It ended last night. Authorities say they caught the man about 15 miles from the scene of the crime after someone called in a tip to the FBI. NBC News correspondent Sam Brock is live outside the jail in Cold Spring, Texas. Sam, good morning. So how did they track him down? Yeah, Willie, this was really a remarkable turn of events, given the fact that when we spoke 24 hours ago, authorities by their own admission had absolutely no idea where Francisco Oropeso was.

And now we are expecting at some point today, Willie, that he's going to be brought to the jail here in San Jacinto County. And how did we get to that point, right? This is a man who has been accused of murdering five people brutally, including a nine-year-old child who was only trying to protect his mother. What we were told from police is that there was a tip that came in from the FBI tip line at about 5.15 yesterday. By 6.30, Willie, whatever that information was, it prompted an immediate swarming. And just then, Portaropesa was already behind handcuffs. Now, we have video that appears to show him being arrested at a private residence.

Not clear at this point whose residence that is. We have pressed officials as to whether or not there is a connection, whether the individual who lives there perhaps was harboring Oropesa. They did not provide that information. We just know that there were three different agencies involved in bringing him in, remarkably, Willie, without incident and without injury. We're talking about Texas DPS, U.S. Marshals, and then BORTEC, that elite unit of border control, all three of them getting on scene and bringing Otapeza in handcuffs back into a police car where he was then brought to Montgomery County. This is where it's located. This is in the city of Cut-and-Shoot, Texas. And as you mentioned, Willie, this is only about 15 miles

away from that brutal massacre where it occurred. Shocking to some as it wasn't clear whether or not he was in Southeast Texas, another part of the state. Was he in Mexico? And it turns out that Otapeza was in the backyard of his living space the entire time. Now, the chronology and the specifics about how he actually got there, again, that remains unclear, despite repeated questions to authorities yesterday. The FBI did not want to get into it. Here is Sheriff Capers in San Jacinto County talking about how this all came to pass, and remarkably, where he was found.

He was caught hiding in a closet underneath some laundry. They effectively made the arrest. He is uninjured, and he is currently being taken to my facility in Cold Springs. Now, it is not apparent at this point, Willie, whether or not he's actually been transferred here or not. The expectation is if it hasn't happened already, it's going to later today. But this news comes really and pertinently in light of information that was broken by NBC News yesterday regarding the violent past of Francisco Otapeza, specifically that in 2022, his wife had filed for a protective order, really, because she claims in sworn

testimony that he beat her, that he physically closed his fist and punched her, kicked her on the ground, on the backside, in the face, in the mouth. So this narrative that was painted by neighbors of someone who, at least to the best of their knowledge, was someone who wasn't violent, never aggressive, never raised his voice. There is now documented evidence that she filed a protective order against him. And I asked the sheriff yesterday, knowing that, knowing that he was deported four times and that there were repeated calls to his residence because of gunfire. Did that prompt further investigation? Did you look into this? And he said, yes. And we tried to actually arrest him back in 2022 that a constable went around from another county trying to track down Otapeza and wasn't successful. And then ultimately his wife decided not to try to prosecute him. And that was just the end of it. So that prompts quite a few questions about how there wasn't more scrutiny and more search for this man, of course, to fatal consequences a year later.

Five people killed, including a nine year old child a couple of days ago. And a lot of people in Texas at least feeling a little bit better that he's now in police custody. NBC News correspondent Sam Brock in Texas for us this morning. Sam, thanks so much. John, we're watching way too early this morning. You had a story about Tucker Carlson, some new text messages that coming to light, perhaps some of the motivation we're hearing about why Fox may have let him go. Some new reporting from The New York Times, A racially charged text message reportedly sent by Tucker Carlson to a Fox News producer is providing more insight into why the cable news station fired the former host last week. Just one day before the company was set to take the stand for

a billion dollar defamation trial last month, the Times is reporting that this previously redacted message came to the attention of Fox executives. The Times reports it was sent to one of his producers in the hours after the January 6th insurrection and reads in part this way. A couple of weeks ago, I was watching video of people fighting on the street in Washington. A group of Trump guys surrounded an Antifa kid and started pounding the living crap out of him. It was three against one, at least. Jumping a guy like that is dishonorable, obviously. It's not how white men fight. Yet suddenly, I found myself rooting for the mob against the man, hoping they'd hit him harder, kill him. I really wanted them to hurt the kid. I could taste it. Carlson later goes on to write that he,

quote, shouldn't gloat over the man's suffering. But according to the Times, the earlier portion of the message was concerning enough that it contributed to Fox's decision to settle with Dominion Voting Systems for more than $787 million and ultimately fire the host. Other messages, including ones where Carlson disparaged Fox executives and used sexist language, also reportedly led to his firing. The contents of this latest message are part of redacted court filings and were disclosed to the Times in interviews with several people close to the Dominion lawsuit, but have not yet been independently confirmed by NBC News. NBC has reached out to both Carlson's attorneys and Fox News for response, but has not heard back. A representative for Carlson did tell

the Times that he had no comment on the story. So, Michael Steele, just want to kind of get your reaction here to this latest revelation, a text message that seems to be part of a larger puzzle as to why Tucker Carlson was shown the door. Yeah, it doesn't surprise me. I think that a lot of what, you know, we now know from the Dominion case really filled in some of the backstory about exactly how these hosts like Tucker operated within the Fox ecosystem. I mean, the fact that something like that could be sent to a colleague and it sort of sits there and nothing happens or comes from it. It's not until you get into this sort of adversarial prosecutorial setting in which it becomes public or potentially becomes public that we see some reaction. So it really speaks to the culture inside the building

in many respects, that that type of communication doesn't rise to a point where, you know, he's brought in by the leadership of the company and said, what the hell are you talking about? What do you mean? How white men fight? You know, you want to see somebody get killed on the streets of D.C. And so I think there are probably going to be more of this, quite honestly, as even though this case is settled in that regard, you still have the Smartmatic case coming forward. Don't know all, you know, all the access to emails and the documents they have there but it really speaks to a culture i think that had grown up inside a fox that you could communicate that way with a producer with someone of authority inside the building and and everyone's okay with it well and the culture

was just a culture of no accountability, specifically for their biggest star. And, you know, that those lines had to horrify them, knowing that that was going to be out publicly, especially when you looked at all the other things that were going to be going out, him repeatedly using the C word to describe women, to describe one of Trump's lawyers when he was pushing back against the very election rigging lie, the big lie that Trump pushed. And, you know, here you actually have a Fox News host saying they wanted a group of Trumpers to kill a kid. His words, I wanted them to kill the kid. You mix that up with, again, the C word used to describe women that he worked with or that came across him. The anti-Semitism that we hear is going to be coming out of the producer's

lawsuit. It's just hard to imagine why they wouldn't at the end feel like it was their best legal move, political move, PR move to send him on his way. And Mehdi Hassan put together a compilation a few days ago when people started engaging in this really bizarre anti-anti-Tucker babbling. Oh, well, sure, he's bad. Sure, he's this. Sure, he's that. But he did some really good things. The trains ran on time. Sure, we heard it from Barry Weiss. We heard it from Andrew Sullivan, people that I read regularly. And and they did this anti anti Tucker ism, just like people used to always do the anti anti Trump ism. And Mehdi Hassan said he had the receipts and wanted to show all these people that were engaging in anti-anti-Tuckerism exactly what they were defending. And yes, they are defending this by saying whatever bad things

Tucker Carlson did, well, at least he was anti-woke. This is what they're defending whenever they go to the mat for Tucker. Demographics. Demographics. Demographics. Demographics. Demographics. Remember the Great Replacement Theory? It was a conspiracy theory. It sounds more like a statistical fact. Ilhan Omar is living proof that the way we practice immigration has become dangerous to this country. Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, herself a symbol of America's failed immigration system. Can a single human being actually be as loathsome as Ilhan Omar is?

It's hard to believe. Diddy Montell Williams, you know, is something that's within her range of experience. Is she good at it? We can't say, but she's done it. Just for masochistic reasons, can you do it one more time? So it might be time for Joe Biden to let us know what Kentaji Brown Jackson's LSAT score was. What else are you doing in the LSATs?

They think that you should be elevated in America based on what you do, on the choices you make, not on how you're born, not in your DNA, because that's Rwanda. Rwanda. Rwanda. Rwanda. Rwanda. We're still not precisely sure how George Floyd died. Very few unarmed black men are killed by white cops these days.

Where's George Floyd when you need him? The only job training program this administration has gotten behind in two and a half years is getting black people to sow more weed in the cities. You never see politicians transitioning to say Malcolm X. Why is that? Maybe because Malcolm X didn't talk like a sharecropper. Xenophobia. It seems almost antique. This show, more than any other show on television, has taken an aggressive position in Andrew Sullivan, both Tucker and Bobby represent. It seems to me something nonetheless real, a deepening suspicion of corporate and government authority. And then Barry Weiss says you can't deny how important Tucker was and is. Nellie and I watched his monologues and and not quite nightly, but the next day on YouTube.

Let's see, what else did she say? Just said he was one of the only people on TV who made viewers aware of the new military industrial complex, the alliance between big tech and the government. I mean, you know what? I can name about five other people. I want you guys to play that clip again. I want you to play the clip because I want these people who are defending Tucker Carlson, I want them to see once again what they're defending. Play the clip.

White supremacy, that's the problem. This is a hoax. There's no evidence that white supremacists were responsible for what happened on January 6th. That's a lie. We have a moral obligation to admit the world's poor, they tell us, even if it makes our own country poorer and dirtier and more divided. Demographics. Demographics.

Demographics. Demographics. Demographics. Remember the great replacementographics. Demographics. Demographic. Remember the great replacement theory? Was it conspiracy theory? It sounds more like a statistical fact. Ilhan Omar is living proof that the way we practice immigration

has become dangerous to this country. Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, herself a symbol of America's failed immigration system. Can a single human being actually be as loathsome as Ilhan Omar? It's hard to believe. Diddy Montel Williams, you know,

is something that's within her range of experience. Is she good at it? We can't say, but she's done it. Just for masochistic reasons, can you do it one more time? So it might be time for Joe Biden to let us know what Contagi Brown Jackson's LSAT score was. What else are you doing in the LSATs? They think that you should be elevated in America based on what you do, on the choices you make, not on how you're born, not on your DNA.

Because that's Rwanda. Rwanda. Rwanda. Rwanda. Rwanda. We're still not precisely sure how George Floyd died. Very few unarmed black men are killed by white cops these days. Where's George Floyd when you need him? The only job training program this administration has gotten behind in two and a half years

is getting black people to sow more weed in the cities. You never see politicians transition to say Malcolm X. Why is that? Maybe because Malcolm X didn't talk like a sharecropper. Xenophobia! It seems almost antique. This show, more than any other show on television, has taken an aggressive position in favor of colorblind equality and against racism. So I have no words, not only for what we saw there, but also by people who are going out there going, yeah, but at least he wasn't

woke. So we're going to we're going to be OK with the most racist rants that I think we've we've heard on national news in our lifetimes. When I saw the headline last night about what the text message that supposedly got him fired said, I, you know, I had a gasp and then an oh, right, like, right, of course, this is what was happening behind the scenes. And sometimes even I can make the mistake of not appreciating just how dark things can get in some corners of the right. And what really struck me about that text message show is just is the casual aside about

it's not how white men fight, right? He could have very easily not included that in the text message. He said it's, you know, as an aside, he says it's dishonorable, of course. It's not how white men fight. It tells you that sort of how established it was within the culture that white people were supreme. So it's not, you see the misogyny, the racism that he's airing, and then find behind the scenes, it's actually a little darker than even what you saw aired in that two-minute clip. Joe, can I jump in on it real quick? Because I think that's an important point, that it is darker than what we see on the clip. And what you see from all of this is a feeding into the system. Tucker's reflecting an attitude that those clips really touch on that entices and excites that particular audience

who believe, you know, that's not how white men fight, who believe that Congresswoman Omar is somehow an anathema to everything American. And so it feeds into this sort of representation that you see on air every night. And it is darker off camera, but it's no less relevant because it does partly feed that narrative that they want to put out there about this country and about people like myself who don't look like or should not be considered, you know, the job market for selling weed, for black people selling weed on the streets of D.C. What the hell is that supposed to be? You know, I grew up in that city. There were more white folks selling weed at times than black folks. So, but again, but that's not the point. That's not the point.

And the point is to continue the caricature of black people, this idea that, you know, this Antifa, this individual was, you know, worthy of killing because they weren't white. It's just a whole culture thing that we've got to deal with because Tucker is a symbol of that. He's a symptom of that. And the problem, the real problem is that Fox allowed it and promoted it every single night, elevated it up, mainstreamed it, gave it commercials, gave it, you know, lead ins, gave it, you know, advertising, all the stuff that made it seem okay. And you've made the point a little bit earlier, you would say it's the first time in your lifetime you could see just outward racism just spewed on national television every night, and everybody's like, yay. So, you know, I think this is an interesting moment. There's going to be more of this, like I said, to come. This is just one of, I'm sure, a lot of stuff that Tucker and others at Fox have been saying behind the scenes that will get some light. And now the question is, now that the light is exposing it, what do we do with it? How do we process it? community do about it when they see one of their own pushing this kind of narrative out to the

country? Well, and again, and what do those who are defending him, sort of the anti-anti-Tucker crowd doing? It's just like we saw it, Willie, for years, the anti-anti-Trump crowd, where it didn't matter how abhorrent Trump was. They never defended Trump. They just attacked the people who were being critical of Donald Trump. And then, of course, you find out a lot of people at Fox were being far more critical about Donald Trump than even we were on air, calling him the most evil person and a destroyer, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So it's it is very interesting. But we are now with with Donald Trump that we're going coming into a very interesting place where we're going to have media outlets trying to mainstream a guy who tried to overthrow

the United States government. Good luck with that. Good luck with that for your democracy. Good luck with that for your network. Good luck for that for people who work with you. It's kind of hard to mainstream that. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how everyone handles Donald Trump. This is not 2016. There's nothing novel about his potential as president. He has a record as president, which includes leading an attempted coup against the United States government. So there can be no reset. Well, let's start over. He's a candidate. He's got a long record now as president, and it's not pretty. Still ahead on Morning Joe, with a historic default looming,

House Democrats have a new backup plan to force a debt ceiling increase. But is it realistic? We'll have the latest from Capitol Hill. Also this morning, what Florida voters are saying about Governor Ron DeSantis and that ongoing fight with Disney. He's still at it. We'll get a live report from Orlando. Plus, thousands of film and TV writers are planning to pick it again today after contract negotiations failed this week. We're following the latest on where those talks stand this morning. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. LeBron finishing the alley-oop there to pad the Lakers lead over the Warriors at the beginning

of the fourth quarter. Lakers didn't need to rely on LeBron, though. Anthony Davis last night leading L.A. for the game high 30 points and 23 rebounds in this highly anticipated opener of the second round. The Lakers nearly let it slip away. Golden State used a 14-0 run to tie the game with less than two minutes to play. But the Lakers did hold on to win on the road, 117-112. The teams will stay in San Francisco for game two tomorrow night. But the Lakers did hold on to win on the road, 117-112. The teams will stay in San Francisco for game two tomorrow night.

Huge win for LeBron and the Lakers last night. Over in the Eastern Conference here in New York, the Knicks rebounded from Sunday's loss to even their second-round series against the Heat at a game apiece. Had to have this one at home. Julius Randle returning from injury and combining with Jalen Brunson for 55 points in a 111-, 1-0-5 win. The series now shifts to Miami. Tied 1-1. Game three is on Saturday. Meanwhile, 76ers center Joel Embiid is the NBA's most valuable player.

Embiid finally claiming the honor after finishing the last two regular seasons as runner-up. It comes as Embiid is battling a right knee injury that has sidelined him for Philadelphia's last two playoff games. It is unclear if he'll be back on the court for Game 2 against the Celtics tonight, but very, very unlikely. How are you feeling as a Celtics fan, John, right now? Embiid's probably not going to play tonight because they got what they needed. They stole Game 1.

You've got to win tonight. Yeah, I suspect you're right. Embiid, we'll see Embiid again in Game 3. Yeah, the Celtics fell apart down the stretch. They were really sloppy in game one. It almost felt like there was some hangover from the Bruins collapse the night before in that same building. Absolutely must win tonight. They've got to take game two. As far as the Lakers go, I mean, that's a huge win on the road. I mean, the Warriors seemed a little gassed. They finished a seven-game series against the Kings, and LeBron didn't even have to do that much. I mean, I feel about the Lakers like I feel about the Yankees,

so I'm not happy about this at all. But your Knicks, Knicks got one they had to have. They had to have that one. Yeah, Jen, we were just saying the ability of these guys to sort of turn it on in the playoffs, LeBron, Anthony Davis, these guys in the Lakers, they kind of had not much going on in the regular season. What were they, seventh or eighth in the West? Something like that.

And now, I mean, they're on the fast track to the conference finals. LeBron, never count him out. He's like Brady. Never bet against him. This is why I'm not, as you know, I'm much more of an NFL fan than an NBA fan. Go Giants. Go Giants. But this time of year, it does.

They are really, you know, because sometimes during the regular season, the games are just, you know, it doesn't feel like people are out there or operating at like the full potential. And like, it's pretty exciting. Yeah, stars take a little energy. Yes. Excellent NFL draft coverage, by the way. Oh, thank you. Yes. You were great in KC. I mean, you really broke it down. That was, it was, it was, it was, I mean, one of the better capers I have pulled off being the morning Joe NFL draft analyst. The night before, Alex, our executive producer, Joe, I saw Jen on our guest list from Kansas City. I said, what's is there a political event?

No, she's covering the draft for us. That's fantastic. And she was great. She crushed it. Is it not astounding? I mean, I know the NFL has always been huge. It's always been huge in my life when I was, you know, for Christmas, I would always get, you know, NFL sheets with all the names of all the teams arranged. And I had NFL bulletin board. I mean,

everything. And so it's always been big. But I guess, you know, about five, six years ago, you started hearing people saying, oh, I'm not going to follow the NFL anymore after the George Floyd protests and the Colin Kaepernick stuff. And here we are several years later, ratings bigger than ever. I mean, it's so funny. I've been out of it so much. As far as the NFL, I watch playoff games. But, you know, I'm a college football, you know, being from the South, I'm college football, college basketball fan. But Jack is, you know, he loves two things.

He loves Sunday mornings with Willie Geist and he loves the NFL. And so we watch Red Zone every week and he's so into it. And I've gotten so into it. I mean, we're huge Lions fans. I know I'm a Falcons fan, but the Lions last year were just absolutely crazy. But I say all this to say, usually you and I, and we all remember whenever you'd see the NFL draft. And I thought, you know, I thought they're going to be like, you know, they usually would rent out a warehouse in New York. There'd be a couple of drunk guys in t-shirts holding signs. Jack fans. That's what I thought it was going to be like.

And they do this sweeping shot in Kansas City. And they had half the number, half the population of Kansas City, like size-wise, there along with Jen watching the draft. And there's just never been a sport more popular in the United States. It's extraordinary how big the NFL has gotten. It is, Jen. And to see it up close, we were talking about Nashville a few years ago. I think Nashville was the first time they took it outside of New York.

And lower Broadway, there were hundreds of thousands of people on those drone shots. You couldn't, it was like Woodstock or something to stand there and wait and watch who your team was going to draft. Some 20-year-old kid from Kansas State you've never heard of. Yeah! You come all the way to Nashville. It's amazing what they're doing. Well, and people, and it's like a, people are, it's the whole weekend is like filled with possibility, right? Like everybody, all the fans walk away happy because they got, everybody got a prize. Maybe it wasn't the prize you wanted, but everybody gets a prize. There's not anybody that actually loses.

You know, Joe, speaking of the lions, it's in Detroit next year. I mean, I don't know. Roadshow. I'm just saying. Michigan election year. Election year. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Swing state. By the way, can we get the ISO of Jen up for a second? And can you just swing the camera left so we can get Bonico? Yeah, he was lurking. He just hid. He was lurking.

He just keeps lurking. Mike, step out. And we see his head. There he is. Step back out. There he is. Okay, there we go, Mike. Yeah, by the way, Red Sox won again last night.

Sorry, Grandpa. They may be pretty good this year. Okay, so who on the panel knows about the Lions this past year? Anybody, like, following the Lions? We can talk some Lions. We can talk some Lions. They drafted Alabama running back, Joe. Yeah.

They did. They got knocked for that. They then drafted a great defensive back from Alabama. But that team was, I mean, Lemire, they were the most, for us, they were the most exciting team in the NFL last year. They started like one and six. And Jack and I kept saying, this is the best one in six team we've ever seen in our life. Explosive offense.

And the Lions fans, they're like us Falcon fans, right? You got to take the scraps that they throw you, right? But last season was exciting. This Lions team could actually be something. Motor City madness, baby. I think, do they still play in the Pontiac Dome, the Silver Dome? I don't know. They play at Ford Field. Yeah, they play at this new

building downtown. But yeah, the Lions, Joe, were a great offense last year. They finished strong. Credit to them. The last game of the regular season, you'll recall, they had been knocked out of the playoffs already. They still beat the Packers to keep the Packers from the playoffs. That was a statement win building towards next year with Rodgers gone out of the division.

The Lions are the favorite of the NFC North. But the question on draft day was whether or not they were going to take a quarterback. They didn't. So it's still Jared. They have a lot of weapons, but still some questions remain about Jared Goff, who was good last year. But we'll see if he can do it again. He was good. He was solid.

He's that Phil Sim solid. Build a good team around him. And with apologies to Jim Vande Heiwilligeist, the Detroit Lions did not beat the Green Bay Packers last game of the season. They punched them in the mouth. They ran over them at Lambeau Field when they wanted to get in the playoffs. I mean, that's a team with a lot of spirit, a team with a lot of fight. Sort of, you know, the New York Post is the official Morning Joe newspaper.

I think we may need to make the Lions. What do they have? Any? Oh, the Met Gala was woke or something. And then, yeah, the Met Gala was woke. There you go. Oh, my God. I don't know.

This is why they are who they are. The official paper record of Morning Joe. That's amazing. So we may have to have a vote. I know everybody loves the Giants there. That's awesome. But maybe we make, for a season, the Detroit Lions the official team of Morning Joe. You know what?

I've been smiling throughout this conversation because people always say, like, how do you prepare for Morning Joe every day? It's four hours and you cover so much ground. And some days you can't because you wake up, you're ready for all the news of the day, and then you talk about the off-season moves of the Detroit Lions for 10 minutes. And that's who we are, Joe. And in May. And Willie. We we are, Joe. And in May, in May, Willie wearing wearing golden robes in Turkish prisons on your birthday in 1971.

That's right. Four year old Jim Palmieri coming over and, you know, walking me home and quoting him anyway, saying we're stronger in the broken place. The world breaks all of us. Stronger in the broken places. Yes, breaks all of us. We're stronger in the broken places. Yes, exactly. How do you prepare for that, Willie? We still have three hours and 16 minutes of this. Buckle up, everybody. Barnacle's lurking. Barnacle lurks. All right. Let's get back to the news, because coming up, we'll have the latest out of Sudan,

where opposing military groups reportedly have agreed to a seven-day ceasefire in the conflict there. Also, a new round of aid for Ukraine as the United States looks to shore up the country's military ahead of an expected counteroffensive against Russia. Also ahead, the U.S. breaks the ice a bit with Beijing, calling for high-level talks amid heightened tensions between the two world powers. Retired Navy Admiral James Stavridis will weigh in on all that, plus the guy on the right who arrives at 4 a.m. for his 7 a.m. appearance. We'll be right back. Beautiful live picture of the White House at 648 in the morning. U.S. officials have told the Associated Press another $300 million in additional military aid is being sent to Ukraine. The package reportedly will include an enormous amount of artillery rounds, howitzers, air-to-ground rockets and ammunition.

This latest shipment comes as Ukrainian officials say they are readying a counteroffensive against Russia. Joining us now, former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO, retired four-star Navy Admiral James Stavridis. He is chief international analyst for NBC News. Admiral, good morning. So the aid continues to flow from the United States to Ukraine, much needed at this moment. When we say that Ukraine is readying a counteroffensive, what do you suspect that's going to look like? I think the Ukrainians will take the armor, the tanks, the armor personnel carriers that we've provided them, and they'll use them to drive at the Russian forces,

trying to split them, trying to split Russian forces who are arrayed kind of north and south along the Black Sea. If the Ukrainians can successfully do that, Willie, they will find themselves. And you can see the graphic there. Think of them driving toward the Black Sea through the red area. It would divide the Russian forces and allow the Ukrainians to flank the Russians, splitting, going north and south. It could be a very good spring for the Ukrainians.

So given that, that would be the strategy, Admiral. What about the underlying aspect of lack of manpower on the Ukrainian side? Yeah. I mean, it's a small country. It's not Russia. Right. They don't have the prisoners that they're sending into the meat grinder, but the manpower issue. Yeah, I think you put your finger on one of the key things that would make me cautious about how Ukraine's going to do here. One is the manpower. Number two is the lack of air power. So the Russians have a thousand combat aircraft. They could overwhelm the Ukrainians in the sky in combat. And then thirdly, you know, we're flipping the table here. It's been the Russians on offense for a while. Now the Russians go on defense. And we say in the military, defense is to offense as

three is to one, because you can dig in, get behind barricades. So, yes, I think the Ukrainians will do well this spring, but the Russians still have cards to play. They have. And the Russians have literally, literally dug in. They have, especially in Crimea, which to them is sacred ground. They will fight hard for Crimea. So Ukrainian officials have suggested that the counteroffensive might still be a few weeks away after the conclusion of the country's muddy season, which makes it so hard to move. But talk a little bit about some of the challenges the Russians have faced. I mean, their offensive over the winter didn't get them very far. And now there's some reporting that

even the, what Mike mentioned, that Wagner prisoner group, that they're having trouble with their supply lines and that the guy who runs it, the Putin ally, might even suggest they have to abandon Bakhmut. Indeed, this is Progozin, who used to be Putin's chef, and now he is running the Wagner Group. Talk about a job change. His point is he's not only beating up the standard Russian forces verbally for lack of ammunition, lack of support. He's actually fighting. In other words, we see reports of Wagner Group and Russian troops exchanging gunfire. So this is another, shall

we say, significant disadvantage the Russians are going to face is divided forces. Admiral, where do you see this leading? Of course, over, you know, we get to the summer. Are we looking at more discussion of talks on resolving this? Like, where do you think this is headed in the next few months? Yeah, let's hope so. You and I did a nice segment on the circus a few months ago and we talked about this. There's kind of two clocks that are running right now. One is all the things we just discussed, the challenges Russia faces, the logistics, the cratering manpower, all of those challenges, the equipment losses. On the other hand, the clock is running on support for the Ukrainians here in the West. I think both of those things, Jennifer, will over time induce the parties to come to the table.

Will that be three months from now, three years from now? We don't know. But probably toward the end of this year, I think the pressures on both sides because of those clocks running will bring us to some kind of negotiation. Joe. So, Admiral, there's a Daily Beast article about how Vladimir Putin's preparing Russia for a possible defeat in a crisis manual that was leaked. And in it, it says a new manual prepared by Russia's presidential administration and distributed to Kremlin's army of propagandists contains surprising instructions about not underestimating Ukraine's impending counter offensive and do not underestimate and do not spread the idea that Kiev is somehow not ready for it. And they go on and on saying that it's it's Vladimir Putin preparing people around him for the worst case scenario this spring. I'm curious your thoughts on those leaked documents and also what's plan B for Vladimir Putin? You know, we've always feared that he could use

tactical nuclear weapons. But we've also said at the same time he can control the information that gets out to Russians and try to turn a loss into a win. I think he is doing what any politician would do, which is to try and lower expectations at this point. And probably his setup, Joe, is that he'll ultimately say to the Russian people, look, we held on to Crimea. That's really the crown jewel. They'll probably get pushed out of that strip of land between Russia and Crimea. That's what he's preparing his people to deal with when the negotiation Jennifer and I were just discussing comes. I don't see him reaching for a tactical nuclear weapon, Joe. He knows if he did

that, the global south, India, Brazil, Nigeria, South Africa, Pakistan, that herd would move away from Russia if he used a nuclear weapon. So I think that's unlikely. I think his plan B is tough it out, tell the Russians, look, we won. And short of actually being driven out of Ukraine by the Ukrainian armed forces, which would be a big task, not impossible, but a big task. Short of that, I think Putin will stay in power and ride this out. Well, and Willie, the argument that they're starting to make in Russia right now seems to be, listen, if we just hold on, if we hold on to any of our gains that we've made, that's a great success because it is our country against the entire West. And it shows just how tough our fighters are. That starts, that sounds like the message that start starting to be delivered to the propagandists in Russia.

And what a moving of the goalposts that represents from 15 months ago when Vladimir Putin thought he was going to roll into Kiev and take over the country. A long way from that. Admiral, stay with us. We want to talk about China, Sudan, probably the Detroit Lions offensive line. We've got a lot to hit you with when we come right back on Morning Joe. Well, they can rest easy now because he is behind bars and he will live out his life behind bars for killing those five. A massive manhunt that spanned four days ends now with the arrest of the man accused of killing five of his neighbors, including a young boy. We will have the latest from Texas. Also ahead, more testimony in the civil trial

against Donald Trump, including from a woman who says she spoke to his accuser moments after the alleged assault. Plus, new reporting on the former president's plans when it comes to the 2024 campaign and whether he will participate in Republican primary debates. Jonathan Lemire, Mike Barnicle, Jen Palmieri, Michael Steele, all still with us as we hit the top of the hour here. We continue our conversation with retired Admiral James Stavridis. The U.S. ambassador to China says the United States is now ready to hold high-level talks with Beijing.

Speaking at an event yesterday, Ambassador Nicholas Byrne said the U.S. wants to develop, quote, better channels between the two governments. NBC News reports he also said while the relationship is complicated, the United States does not seek conflict with China and that dialogue would be more constructive. Can't argue with that. Admiral would be more constructive. But why do you suspect this message is being sent right now at this moment from the United States? Yeah, I think, first of all, Nick Burns, somebody I've known a long time. He was our ambassador to NATO. So he understands how complicated this international scene is. The reason we, the United States, are making these overtures right now, Willie, is pretty simple. It's because the relations have really cratered over the last six months, everything from spy balloons to worsening trade to cyber conflict to arguments about the South China Sea. So none of that is good for the global environment. And here we also get to Ukraine.

We want Russia to we want Russia not to get support from China. The best way to do that is to have good relations, reasonably good between China and the United States. There's a big game of risk afoot here. Admiral, it's so interesting. I was at a global citizen event last week and interviewed President Macron. And here we're talking about the things that he thinks need to be done to help on on the issue of climate change. And top of his list is the United States and China getting together and starting to talk again. He said it's one of the reasons he went there on the trip that was seen as controversial. He said, we've got to break the ice.

And it is true, is it not? If we're worried about global security, if we're worried about Ukraine not escalating into World War III, if we're worried about climate change, if we're worried about the economy, if we're worried about trade, if we're worried again, again, let's underline it again, global security, the United States has to talk to China, regardless of what Trump Republicans are saying, and regardless of what some people on the far left are saying, we have to talk to them. Indeed, we do. And here's how I would categorize it, Joe. What we need to do is confront China where we must, where they're flying spy balloons over the United States, where they claim the entire South China Sea, a body of water half the size of the United States, is territorial waters. It's a preposterous claim. We need to confront

China where we must, but we should cooperate wherever we can. And you just ticked off the shopping list. It's the environment. It's cooperation and global security trying to resolve the situation in Ukraine. I'll add one to your list. Prepare for the next pandemic. Part of why our global response was so disastrous is because it disaggregated the United States from China and others who were involved in it. So we should have a strategy that says confront where we must cooperate wherever we can. That's the best policy. That's why Nicholas Burns is putting those feelers out. The next thing you'll see and watch for it will be cabinet level officials going to Beijing. Look for Janet Yellen to go, our secretary of the Treasury.

Look for Ginni Raimondo, former government of Rhode Island and currently the secretary of commerce. That's the cooperate where we can side. We'll continue to confront where we must. Let's put this relationship in perspective. I hear for people who loathe Joe Biden, who are overly ideological and it's all partisanship. They'll talk about how weak we are and how China's pushing us around and how this and it skews the debate. It goes against the reality of everything I've heard from leaders in Europe, leaders in the Middle East, leaders in Asia. They're all saying the United States is flexing their muscles more than ever before. And I'm not being jingoistic here. I'm saying American leaders, especially in Washington, need to look. And this is what

Dr. Brzezinski always said. Look at America through the eyes of our adversaries, through the eyes of our allies. And I can tell you right now, our allies and our adversaries are saying we're not leading from behind anymore. Like our pivot to Asia has started and we've actually boxed China in. You look at what we've done in Guam, the increased force there. You look at the increased force in the Philippines, the agreement there. You look at the nuclear sub agreement with Australia. You look at the agreement with Japan to start flexing their muscles and building their military out.

China. And I'm not being critical of the Biden administration. America's doing what America has been promising they're going to do for 20 years and never did it. We have pivoted to China and we have a stronger presence in Asia now than we've had. At the same time, and forgive me for this long buildup, but our policymakers that watch this show need to understand it. At the same time, China has a reason for feeling, you know, a little tied around the collar. They have a reason for saying, my God, the Americans are starting to surround us. And if at least we can understand why they're thinking that way, that helps us get to the table and start talking about some of our disagreements instead of this just reflexive anti-China movement on the Hill.

Indeed. And I'll add one to your list of how it looks from Beijing, which you didn't mention, which is recently announced U.S. nuclear submarines will be doing port calls in Korea. And oh, by the way, we have ships in and out of Singapore constantly. So, yes, we need to put ourselves in the shoes of the other and therefore understand their arguments, for example, why they think they own the South China Sea. Not that we're going to agree with it, but because then we can reverse engineer those arguments, negotiate and resolve some of these conflicts. All of that is crucial to diplomacy. Final thought, Joe, I hear a lot. You probably do, too, that, oh, my God, we're in a new Cold War with China.

No, we're not. And, you know, Mike Barnicle and I are old enough to actually remember the Cold War. That was the Soviet Union, the United States and NATO. Millions of troops nose to nose on the Fulda Gap in Europe. Huge battle fleets around the world playing hunt for Red October. Thousands of nuclear weapons on a hair trigger alert. We're not remotely there. We are still engaged.

We need to continue that. We are still engaged. We need to continue that. We are still engaged. And Mike, you talk to any diplomat, you talk to any business person that has been to China over the past several months, and the Chinese will actually express concern. And the Chinese will actually ask, wait, wait, why does everybody in America hate us? And, you know, you bring up the spy balloon and they'll laugh. They go, oh, my God, your spy technology is light years ahead of ours. We have no idea how much you're raking out of China every day. And so they understand the differences. And again, I'm not I'm not carrying China's water here. They understand the differences. They don't understand when the United

States turned the China American relationship into the new Cold War. And quite frankly, the admiral's right. I think a lot of policymakers on the Hill don't understand just superpowers that along with the EU that that are going to shape the next 50 years on this planet. Yeah, there's no there's no doubt about that, Joe. And on a commercial level, I mean, there's a different it's a different playing field in China between American business interests and Chinese business interests. But Chinese business interests are increasingly being overseen by the Chinese government.