Morning Joe - Morning Joe 5/5/25

Episode Date: May 5, 2025

Trump, asked if he has to 'uphold the Constitution,' says, 'I don't know'

Hi, hello, it's me, your favorite president, and perhaps your next pope. Conway. Well, it's been 100 years since I became president. Excuse me. Days. Wow. Feels longer, but people are saying that what I've done so far has single-handedly helped win people elections, mostly in Canada.

I've also signed 147 executive orders, everything from banning paper straws to defunding PBS. I understand Elmo has now been apprehended by ICE, brought to you by the letter L for El Salvador. He's not coming back. We've got a few new executive orders, and here to help is Deputy Chief of Staff and Lord of the Shadows, Stephen Miller. Oh, wow. Mr. President, it's an absolute pleasure to be here. Wow, even the nice things you say sound like Kylo Ren.

All right, what do we got today, Stephen? What you got? All right, sir. This first today, Stephen? What you got? All right, sir. This first order would bring back Columbus Day. Oh, it's so important. That's right. We are bringing back Columbus Day, back from the ashes. We have to protect Columbus Day for our great Italian American friends

like Tony Soprano, Benny Blanco, and Childish Gambino. All right. What's next? All right, sir. This order would reduce the number of interracial couples in TV commercials. Ah, it's just too many, right? You see them in the kitchen together

making meal from HelloFresh. He's wearing loafers, she's got tight braids. You're like, where'd they meet, you know? What do they even talk about? It's insane. braids, you're like, where'd they meet? You know? What do they even talk about? It's insane. Well done, sir. Sir, this order will make it socially acceptable for a man in his 70s to date a 24-year-old.

That's right, we're calling it the Belichick Law. We're gonna make girlfriends young again, okay? Old men can now date far younger women. We like that. It's hot. But in reverse, it's quite disgusting, right? Very date line, you know? Oh my God, that was just part of Saturday Night Live's cold open.

The real President Trump sat down for a wide-ranging interview with Meet the Press, tackling everything from immigration to the economy We'll have a lot to cover from that conversation Also ahead a report from Newark Airport amid a cut in daily flights because of an air traffic Controller sure. Okay. That's a problem who flies into Newark. I mean we all fly No one by choice, but it Inevitably, though. Maybe not to. We find ourselves there. But now we have an air traffic controller telling Tom Costell, who's going to be on later on today, if you know what's

good for you, don't fly into Newark. Yikes. One of the busiest airports in America. It's on in one hour. Plus, it appears there is no global MAGA movement, as a second country rejects candidates with views similar to President Trump good morning and welcome to morning Joe, it's Monday May 5th happy Monday everybody with us we have the. And today, John the mayor he's a contributing writer at the Atlantic covering the White House and national politics. The host of public or he finds out on metal arc media MSNBC

contributor Pablo Tory and us special correspondent for BBC News and the host of the rest is politics podcast caddy K. Also with us president emeritus of the Council on foreign relations Richard Haas he's the author of the weekly newsletter, Home and Away, available on Substack. Also with us, MSNBC political analyst, Anand Girdardis. He's publisher of the newsletter, The Ink, also available on Substack. Good to have you all on board on this Monday morning. Launch the week.

Nobody wants to talk about baseball, do know actually all I heard was what you're going to absolutely. I'm so upset yesterday. I think red Sox bullpen has blown what 4 for game week in a week. In a week. And the guy who's supposed to be you know what lock supposed to be you know that a reliever he's given up for it it's just it is you know it. I go to bed every night and like the 7th inning like oh my

gosh it's great we're going to win wake up that morning is like 87 to 4. Yeah, this is a particularly rough week that bad for lonely it's they have they lead the league and blown saves it's not close. There are other stats where expected wins turn to losses. They lead the league there and

they've had by far the easiest schedule in baseball to this point. Yet they're only five hundred because the bullpen has coughed up some and they're big. And I mean the only the only mitigating factor is that all my

Yankee fans are just. Yeah I'm trying to just jump on you guys for this all I'm hearing though wins turn to losses feels like a larger metaphor for something perhaps something we'll talk about there you go it's that's the Ailey standings they're all bunched up at the top all very mediocre oh yeah exactly proudly and tonight the the Knicks. Yeah, that's right. Any predictions? Pain. Let's hope the patriotic movie once said I predict pain for that. That sounds like a Knicks, a lifelong Knicks fan.

Richard, 52 years of rebuilding. And we're almost there, but not quite like Newark Airport. We're perpetually almost rebuilt. Yeah, but I mean, at least you have the judge to look forward to. Yeah, it's a tough moment for New York sports. Yeah, Celtics-Nicks tonight. Celtics-Home, rightly favored.

I actually do think the Knicks would put up a fight, but I understand the Knicks' pessimism is decades in the making. What does put up a fight mean? Put up a fight. It's like when you drop a dead cat out a window, it bounces. And it's like, oh, look at that. Put up a fight. Put up a fight. How patronizing a window it bounces. Thank you

Richard said it's patronize all right. News and why ranging interview with meet the press moderator Kristen Welker president Trump seemed to try and have it both ways on the state of the economy, one in credit for the good things and none of the blame for anything else, he was also pressed on if his policies could lead to a recession. Take a look. When does it become the Trump economy?

It partially is right now. And I really mean this. I think the good parts of the Trump economy and the bad parts of the Biden economy because he's done a terrible job. He did a terrible job on everything from his auto pen, which I'm sure he knew nothing about some of the things he was supposedly signing, to immigration. You look at what happened with immigration, how bad it was.

But sir, you acknowledge when you announced your tariffs, for example, the stock market dropped, it's been volatile, it has since gone up. Do you take responsibility for that? Yeah. Do you take responsibility when it drops? Ultimately, I take responsibility for everything, but I've only just been here for a little more than three months. When you say they could have $3 instead of $30, are you saying Americans could see empty

store shelves? No, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying they don't need to have $30. They can have three. They don't need to have 250 pencils. They can have five. But you're basically saying there could be some supply shortages because of the tariffs. I'm basically saying we don't have to waste money on a trade deficit with China for things

we don't need, for junk that we don't need. Some people on Wall Street have expressed concerns that the possibility of a recession is increasing. And I want to know what you think about that. Are you comfortable with the country potentially dipping into a recession for a period of time if you are able to achieve your long-term goals? Well, you know, you say some people on Wall Street say, well, I'd like to tell you something else.

Some people on Wall Street say that we're gonna have the greatest economy in history. Why don't you talk about them? Because some people on Wall Street say this is the greatest economy in history. Well, that's what I'm getting at. Is it okay in the short term to have a recession? Look, yeah, everything's okay.

What we are, I said, this is a transition period. I think we're going to do fantastically. Are you worried about a recession? No. Okay. No. I think we're going to have the greatest economic— I mean, are you worried it could happen?

Do you think it could happen? Anything can happen. But I think we're going to have the greatest economy in the history of our country. I think we're going to have the greatest economy in the history of our country. I think we're going to have the greatest economic boom in history. That was a great summing up of basically his approach towards politics. Anything good? Me. Anything bad?

Joe Biden or my predecessor. So it is, again, a lot going on there. I must say, he sounded like Dr. Brzezinski when he says you don't need 30 dollars make you can have to and also a prom dress up here's a pattern in the sewing machine get to it. But that's about where it ends. You don't need you don't need all that time. But but I will say it's it's we don't know yet where this economy is going. We got numbers out on Friday that once again shows what we've been saying over the past couple of years, which is,

you know, this economy remained extraordinarily resilient under Joe Biden. The Fed continued to try to slow it down, higher interest rates, and the economy kept growing. We were starting to hear the same thing on Friday. I mean, consumer confidence has plunged. The markets have regained. They're down about 10%. They're back up, down now probably in 6%, 7%. But again, right now, a lot of mixed messages. But most forecasts from Wall Street suggest we do have a recession

coming. And that's the view of most economists. I think also when you talk to most CEOs, they are worried their supply chains are going to get fundamentally disrupted because of the...almost the president echoed the uncertainty. Well, maybe this, maybe that. Well, if it's a maybe this, maybe that business environment does not encourage investment, doesn't encourage long-term planning. Do you buy this?

Do you sell that? If you have a five or 10-year investment in order to get your return, well, right now, it's really hard to make it. Well, those CEOs are saying very publicly, we're frozen right now. We don't know where this is going, right? Absolutely. So, my guess is we're heading towards a recession. I think that's what you had, what, 0.3% this time this quarter.

We'll know for sure in just over three months when we get the second quarter. I think the president's point of view is, oh, maybe, that what matters to him is in the long term. You know, there's that other economist named John Maynard Keynes who couldn't be with us today. Right, because he said in the long term world that anyway. Exactly, yeah. So I mean, everything may ultimately work out. But again, the odd thing about the show is, again, the president inherited a robust, healthy economy.

Growth was up. Inflation was down. Employment was up. And for reasons that are still unclear to me, to say the least, why he decided he needed to administer such a shock with tariffs is one thing if you've got a sick patient, you're willing to take risks. We had a healthy patient called the American economy, and now we've turned the healthy

patient into a sick patient for what? That's what's unclear. You know what's so fascinating is when we had Jeff Goldberg in the other day, he said, you know, we always talk about how Donald Trump will move anywhere and he doesn't really believe in anything. The one thing Jeffrey Goldberg said while he was in the White House, he said, you can see it in his eyes. You can read it.

He believes in tariffs. He's believed in tariffs since 1987. He's moving forward with tariffs. So, I mean, so, and I think what is remarkable and what we have not heard other presidents say is, eh, maybe we'll go into, maybe we'll go into a recession. Maybe your kids need to get by with less at Christmas. Maybe you need to get by with less. Never heard any president say that ever,

which may also lead to what you've heard from inside the White House, what I've heard from inside the White House, and what he said yesterday. Hey, he's not running again. He's not running in 2028. So he's willing to play this out, and if there's some short-term pain, he's fine with it.

Yeah, as the immortal Alex Korshen joked a moment ago, it's a far cry from a chicken in every pot right here saying, you know, the president's saying, no, we're not going to give you plenty. We're going to give you less. And you'll be happy with it, that you can settle for just having one or two dolls as opposed to 30. But this is certainly an animating principle, one

of the few that has been consistent since the 1980s for Donald Trump. He believes in tariffs. And he's surrounded himself with people who either really believe in tariffs, like Peter Navarro, or at the very least are willing to go along with it, push back mildly like a Scott Bissett. But there are warning signs on the horizon.

Some of the data from the ports, particularly in terms of the imports coming in, really slowed down. Those prices, they haven't kicked in yet, the higher prices, they will. Inflation could be surging back. Recession still feels very much on the horizon perhaps a near horizon but at least for now President Trump is willing to put up with the pain he said that actually in both yesterday and in the interview with the Atlantic earlier in the week he was pushed is there a number the stock market might hit because we know the first term he was so reactionary

to the stock market and this time around he no, I'm going to see this through. So Cady K, he's committed, Pac committed, at least for the time being on this. It is something that though I know a lot of Republicans are getting anxious about. We've heard from those in the House, those in the Senate, even Leader Thune saying, we're going to let this play out for a while. But at a certain point, they feel like they might need to try to push back, whether that's actually with some just rhetoric or legislation remains to be seen. I mean, the only area where people in the House so far have actually pushed back in

any numbers has been around the issue of tariffs. So whether they're going to broaden that to other issues, it seems unlikely. And then it's only been a handful, six or seven people. I don't see any indication yet from the House or the Senate that there's got much appetite for vocal objection to anything that Donald Trump says. Now, look, if you start that, I think the one thing that could change that could be the impact of tariffs. If you start seeing in a week or two as economists are predicting that shelves will empty, it

will test American consumers' appetite for sacrifice. Now, if you told Swedes that they could only have two doles, not 10 doles, that might be one thing. But Americans are not famous for exercising restraint and austerity when it comes to consumer purchases. So I think that could be something that hurts the president. And then the question is going to be, if that hurts the president and his approval numbers decline, will they push back on other things?

Will they say, you know, push back on due process issues? Will they push back on legal issues as well? I don't think we know yet. I think it depends on how hard the economy is hit by these tariffs. Yeah. I mean, and it is absolutely fascinating. They're very straightforward. The president is very straightforward, saying you may have to get by with less. Yeah, maybe we'll have a recession.

We'll see how that plays out on the campaign. Elon Musk said we're going to have to go through a rough time. I'm sure he didn't realize that he was going to lose $125 to $150 billion personally going through that rough time. But this is something they've all predicted. Scott Besant said something that suggests that maybe Scott Besant doesn't have his fingers on the pulse of America when he said cheap consumer goods is not a God-given right. Mr. Besant, it may not be Secretaryesson, but the American people think it is.

So we're coming to a time where there is going to be a real test if shelves are empty. Does that mean more than dolls? Right. Obviously. Yeah. But that was regarding Christmas when people are saying, well, what if the shelves are empty? I don't know.

I'm not suggesting that the American people can't be patient. I'm just suggesting that the American people can't be patient when it comes to consumer goods. I mean, this is, again, this is what's fueled our economy for decades now. So it's going to be a fascinating test of will to see what happens if the shelves empty out, if prices go up, if what some people on Wall Street are predicting actually comes to fruition. The doll thing feels instructive because this is the language of toys.

All of this feels like a toy to Donald Trump in his cabinet, his Dr. Strange Love-esque cabinet of advisors. Market manipulation is what I think about when I hear them talk about, you don't have to worry about this because they will know sooner than the rest of us what's going to happen and we've seen what happens when they have a little bit of advanced knowledge. There are moves to make. There are ways to profit off of the dip.

There are ways to strategize ahead of the actual American people who did not vote for this. As much as the tariffs, absolutely correct. Donald Trump has been saying that so clearly. This thing, the Dahl's thing, the hey, you might need to scale back. It's just so obviously not what his voters chose. But they all said you're going to have to go through rough times.

Musk said you're going to have to go through rough times. Didn't he say that on the campaign trail? He did. He said they're going to have to go through rough times. They don't. But the people who know what's coming won't have to in the same way. And that market manipulation, this whole crypto casino feeling economy is where there's just an unmistakable vibe

of corruption, self-protection as chaos is going to loom. And that's where Main Street certainly feels like an under-representation of how vast that damage and that anxiety is going to be. Well, obviously, we'll see how all of this plays out. Again, it's a big question. We've been predicting recession now as far as economists for several years. The economy has stayed resilient.

I think right now it's easier to say these things on Meet the Press than it is when actually inflation starts moving up. And you know, we don't know that. We're going to get back to this, but there is a lot more news to get to, including out of Australia, which has a new prime minister, Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese. Same prime minister. He got he was there.

Re-elected. Yeah. Will continue to lead his country's government after his left-leaning Labour Party won a decisive victory over the weekend. Australia joins Canada in seeing a noticeable swing toward the left in response to President Trump's policies. The Labour Party expanded its majority in the Australian House of Representatives, beating the right-wing national and liberal parties. Before the election, polls only showed Albanese had a slim lead.

The opposition leader, Peter Dutton, of the conservative Liberal Party, not only lost the chance to run the country, but also his own seat in the parliament. Dutton is a former police officer who was constantly compared to Donald Trump for his strong stance on immigration and crime. The Wall Street Journal editorial board is writing about this in a new piece entitled, The Trump Effect Hits Australia, and it reads in part so much for the global MAGA movement for the second time in two weeks, a Western democracy has

taken a political turn to the left. The victory in Australia was especially sweeping. The mood of the electorate favored change, but the liberals never capitalized with an economic agenda with broad appeal. They focused instead on culture war issues that didn't have the same salience as they did last year in the U.S. This is one way in which Mr. Trump's tariff shock and rhetorical attacks on allies are having far more than economic consequences.

They are causing democratic electorates around the world to question America's reliability, which at least for now, helps politicians who sound like nationalists in those countries. Steve Bannon may imagine a global mega wave based on the model of Viktor Orban in Hungary, at least in Canada and Australia. The effect has been the opposite. And this, again, goes back to tariffs included. Well, right.

And, Anand, the conservatives were making a move to actually take over the government in Australia. That got blunted. And, again, just like in Canada, the head of the conservative party not only lost the right to run the country, but dramatically enough lost their own seat. So right now among allies, it certainly does look like the MAGA movement is actually having the opposite effect.

It's not transferable. And I've always said, like I said, Reaganism wasn't transferable. Obamaism wasn't transferable. Trumpism isn't transferable, even in America. Donald Trump's on the ballot. Things go better for Republicans. He's not on the ballot. They lose.

And we're starting to see that across the world as well. I mean, I think the Trump ban on fantasy was built on an idea that something fundamental has snapped in human beings, that we've turned this historical corner and people want an ugly, mean-spirited, hateful politics as the future. And there was always this other story of, no, no, no. People are just really desperate and fed up and insecure, and they're lashing out, and they're doing a dumb thing.

But hydraulics still works. And what we're seeing, including the earlier segment, hydraulics still works. Gravity still works. That Donald Trump that you showed in that clip looked afraid. He looked insecure. We've gone from a promised transformation in January to...that was what, in corporations, is called managing expectations. This is now a managing expectations presidency.

And it's reassuring that you have these other moments in elections around the world. People I still believe are decent. Most people are decent. Most people who vote for bad things are decent. And I think people don't want to be hurt. People want chickens in every pot rather than to be explained why they can eat every three days.

And I think, you know, gravity is real. Well, and Richard, what we're finding is, well, certainly Canada and Australia, that was a reaction to what's happening in the United States. But what we've also been finding for the past couple of decades are just a lot of voters

who feel betrayed by their government. And that's why, you know, one party in power after another party in power after another party in power loses. And what we look at what's happening in Canada and Australia, as the New York Times wrote yesterday, it's not as clear cut. In Britain, for instance, the Labour Party, which had a massive victory last July, the Labour Party get pounded in local elections. And Nigel Farage, who everybody was ready to sort of laugh off the stage, suddenly in

all of these local elections, he had his best night. His party had his best night since Brexit. And again, as the time said, and as I think most people will go to Caddy next on this, but you have people who are desperate, who are voting, continue to vote against the party in power because economically things just aren't getting better across these Western democracies. Well, you're right. That's the whole energy of populism. But I think what we saw, though, in both Canada and Australia is people are unsettled.

So they actually voted to stick with what they had for all the flaws simply because there's fear that things are getting out of hand. They wanted something more settled. Britain's a little bit of an exception. It'll be interesting what Cady has to say. But the fact that the so-called reform movement, Farage, in many ways is almost taking the place of the traditional Tory party. And this might be an earthquake in British politics.

And there I expect people like Steve Bannon may find a little bit more comfort. Let's make one other point, Joe, which we were getting at. What's so interesting about this is a lot of these countries, like Canada and Australia, which are two of our closest allies, what they're essentially saying is we have to be prepared for a post-American world. We can no longer rely on the United States. The United States, we thought we knew, guess what, folks? That United States is no longer.

And tariffs have basically become the trigger to wake the world up. Our allies have basically said, we can no longer depend on the United States. We need to become more self-sufficient. We need to forge maybe better relationships with the Chinas and others. We're simply on our own. We can't count on Americans to be their force.

This is an earthquake, even more than their local politics. This is an earthquake in international relations. And we'll ask Cady to hold that thought and take a quick break. Still ahead on Morning Joe, we're going to have much more from President Trump's Meet the Press interview, including what he's saying about his embattled Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. Plus, we'll turn overseas as health experts warn that food, water, and medicine shortages are causing a surge in the number of preventable illnesses and deaths across Gaza.

We'll get a live report from Tel Aviv. That's next on Morning Joe. We're back in 90 seconds. Trump organization is selling hats that say Trump 2028. Are you seriously considering a third term, Mr. President, even though it's prohibited by the Constitution, or is this about staying politically viable? I will say this. So many people want me to do it.

I have never had requests so strong as that. But it's something that, to the best of my knowledge, you're not allowed to do. I don't know if that's constitutional that they're not allowing you to do it or anything else, but there are many people selling the 2028 hat, but this is not something I'm looking to do. I'm looking to have four great years and turn it over to somebody, ideally a great Republican, a great Republican to carry it forward.

But I think we're gonna have four years and I think four years is plenty of time to do something really spectacular. Has anyone approached you, though, with an actual plan, a way to actually start the process of a constitutional amendment? Well, there are ways of doing it. There are ways of doing it, and you know the same thing. And if you look at the vice presidential thing and you hear different concepts and

different other people say you can have a write-in vote there's lots of different things with all of that being said I want to be a great president I'll be an eight-year president I'll be a two-term president I always thought that was very important to be honest with you. Yeah so so so, clearing up what we've known all along and, you know, again, inside the White House, they've been saying from the very beginning, one more time, it's what he's going to do. And you and other people that have followed him with the

campaign trail said by the end of the last campaign with everything that happened. Yeah, he wasn't he wasn't looking to do this again, to run again. He was he was gassed by his own admission. He told advisors after his final rally, like, that was it. Like, this is my last campaign. The way Donald Trump talks, he always

leaves himself some rhetorical wiggle room. He does. But he was pretty clear there. He talked about there's suddenly a surge in Trump 2020 merchandise. He's like, ah, we can make some money off of that. But people in the White House who are there with him every day say, look, he's focused this on these four years. He some money off of that. But he, but people in the White House, you know, who are there with him every day say,

look, he's focused this on these four years. He's not planning beyond that. There are other comments in that interview that were more concerning where he was not sure he has to study, he's not sure he has to follow the Constitution, but at least in terms of this part of the Constitution, two terms, he seems willing to go along with it.

Yeah, and we'll get to that in a little bit. Katty, let's talk about what's happened. We were talking about Canada and Australia. Britain's local elections went a different way. Nigel Farage and the Reform Party, a party that Steve Bannon and Donald Trump, I guess I have those in opposite orders, have aligned themselves with, actually, and who were considered basically pushed off the stage after labor's huge victory last july now doing very well and as richard pointed out that not hurting

labor as much as hurting the tories i mean the conservatives in britain may become an endangered political species yeah i mean i think that is the story. It's not so much the story of populism and pro-Trump movement like we saw in Bolsonaro back in 2019 and is that resurgent in the UK. I think this is a blow to the established system of two parties that have dominated British politics for a century. And now you have this insurgent in Farage and the reform movement. For voters who tried the Tories, were fed up with the Tories and

their grip on power for decades in the UK and the sense that the Tories had lost their way. Then some of those voters flipped, they tried the Labour Party but they didn't love the Labour Party when they elected Keir Starmer. It was more of a vote against the Tories. Starmer hasn't managed, although he's been successful on the kind of global stage in standing up to Donald Trump, he hasn't managed really to revive the British economy. And so now those voters are thinking, OK, let's try the guy that hasn't had a chance yet.

And I think that's a lot of what you saw. You also saw the Liberal Democrats doing well in the UK, another smaller party. So I think it is that fracturing that we've seen across Europe. We've seen it in Germany. We've seen it in France. And now perhaps we're going to be seeing it in the UK as well. And Faraj benefits because he's Faraj, right? He's larger than life. He's charismatic. He's fun on the stump. And I think that also helps the reform movement. Turning now to the Middle East, where the humanitarian crisis in Gaza continues to spiral.

More than two months after Israel stopped allowing aid to enter the territory. Let's bring in NBC News International correspondent Matt Bradley live in Tel Aviv. Matt, what are you hearing on the ground? Yeah, well, actually, the big news just now overnight was that the Israeli cabinet just approved plans to really take over the entire Gaza Strip and to occupy it indefinitely. There's been no timeline placed on this, but that's the idea. They would be moving on from the strategy that has been practiced so far of taking plots of land, trying to eradicate Hamas within those while displacing the population, and then moving on to other parts of the Gaza Strip.

Instead, we're going back to a full occupation of the Gaza Strip with plans to move the population to the south, quote, for their own protection. And this was a statement that we got from an Israeli official with knowledge of the matter. This was sent to NBC News. There was also at the same time, again, in overnight debates in the cabinet, an approval of a plan to distribute humanitarian aid. Now, this aid, which, as you mentioned,

has not been in the Gaza Strip for the past two months. Last Friday marked the two-month anniversary since any aid, and we're talking about food, water, electricity, medical products. All of that has been denied to the Gaza Strip, the longest period that outside aid has been denied to the Gaza Strip ever since its existence as a political entity. And now we're seeing what looks like the beginnings or at least signs of starvation and famine conditions throughout the Gaza Strip. And aid agencies

have been complaining, demanding that the Israeli government lift this blockade. Now, there's been a blockade imposed by the Israelis and the Egyptians for much of the past two decades, but it's been the fiercest that we've seen in just the past two months. Not a single product has been allowed to go in. Organizations like the World Food Program have said they have hundreds of thousands of tons of aid waiting at corridors to enter the Gaza Strip,

waiting for the Israelis to change their mind, but they haven't been doing so. So now this decision that just came out, it would allow for a two-pronged success story. This is what we've been hearing from the cabinet and from the prime minister's office, both the freedom of the hostages, there's thought to be about 59 who remain,

about 24 of them are thought to still be alive, and the eradication of Hamas, that terror organization that started the latest round of fighting back with those October 7th attacks in 2023. Until now, those two goals have long been seen by the Israeli population and everybody, it seems, except for Netanyahu and his top officials,

as totally mutually exclusive. But this plan we're hearing from the Israeli cabinet says that both of these can be achieved and that aid can go in. We're going to see whether or not that's possible, given the massive amount of suffering among a civilian population that numbers well more than 2 million in the Gaza Strip.

Now the other big news we saw over the weekend was that strike by the Houthi rebels in Yemen that really was a near miss. It nearly hit Ben Gurion Airport which actually closed for several hours and many flights have been cancelled so far. Four people were injured according to local health authorities and actually NBC News heard that eight people sustained injuries. Now this was a rare success for the Houthis who have been sending missiles against Israel for much of the past several months, ever since the Israelis broke that ceasefire in

the Gaza Strip and renewed fighting there. The Houthis took this as a massive victory. The Israelis said they're launching an investigation into why their really quite sophisticated air defense system managed not to shoot down this incoming projectile. Guys? NBC's Matt Bradley live in Tel Aviv. Thank you very much. Richard, a lot to cover there. Where do you want to start? Just very quickly on the Houthi strike, I think there the question is whether the Israelis respond against the Houthis or against Iran. And I would, my bet would be that you might see some attacks on Iranian military targets.

The biggest story is obviously Gaza. Joe, for 18 months, we've been waiting for the day after policy. Well, what I think you're getting is the day after policy. It's called occupation. It's called forcing the Palestinians of Gaza, the two million Palestinians, into a very small chunk of Gaza after this really siege for two months. I think the Israelis have given up an idea of an Arab stabilization force coming in.

They don't want to start a political process that leads to any sort of satisfaction of Palestinian nationalism. What I don't know is whether this is, if you will, temporary to quote unquote eradicate Hamas, which I think is unachievable. I would fear that this will mean a lot of the still alive hostages will never see freedom. I think that'll be Hamas' reaction. And what worries me about this also is it's quite possible that what we're seeing is Israeli

occupation of Gaza, not simply as a means to an end, but as an end in itself. I do think it's possible. Again, explain to everybody, 2005 Israel had enough to say, we can't manage Gaza, we're going to turn it over to the Palestinians. So this is basically them stepping back into a situation that seemed untenable in 2005. Stepping back, and how so has that goes to the West Bank? West Bank, as some viewers may know, is divided into three areas, A, B, and C. One of those is Israeli occupied.

Some are shared, some are Palestinian. I'm beginning to think that Gaza's going down the same path, and we're looking at an open-ended Israeli control of some of Gaza, and the Palestinians there put into a really untenable position. This was already, before any of this, the most crowded parcel on earth, or two million people were packed into Gaza. Now we're looking at two million people packed into a slice of Gaza. It's also possible that the Israelis are very interested in the Trump idea of forcing Palestinians out of Gaza.

So watch, I don't think this is, my point is simply, this is awful, but I don't think this is the end of it. Ana, the suffering that's been going on in Gaza for some time, it's just been absolutely dreadful, but it keeps going from bad to worse. And I think it is obviously, first and foremost, a story of a humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza, but it is also hearing that report. If you step back, it's the tragedy of the story of Israel. This is a country that was born out of trauma and the most barbaric treatment of a people,

one of the most barbaric treatments of a people in human history, and a country born out of the ideals to protect and create a homeland and have that never happen again. And it had some great things in its constitution that said to be the the opposite of what happened to Jewish people in other places. And so many of my Jewish friends look at these pictures and they are so anguished that something that was born out of that hurt and pain and trauma could go in this way. You know, as we all know, trauma can... If you heal yourself, if you heal a people, it can go in a direction of saying never again, actually never again. The trauma that happened to me will never happen again.

And there is that political tradition in Israel, but that tradition has been buried by this government, this movement in Israel that comes from the other human story that if I was hurt, I will hurt. This is the hurt people, hurt people version of the state of Israel. It is so profoundly sad that never again has become instead, I will hurt others. Well, this, of course, in response, Jonathan Lamir to October the 7th.

And for those of us that have been talking about a two-state solution for a very long time, there's just not the will. Richard's talked about it before. There's just not the will in Israel anymore for a two-state solution. Certainly not right now. There's just not the will in Israel anymore for a two-state solution. Certainly not right now. Certainly Palestinians aren't there either because of October 7th, what happened after October the 7th.

And you have had Israelis who would have opposed this on October the 6th and would have told the government, you can't go in there right now because, well, a bit like America after 9-11, just saying, no, there is no two-state solution and we're going to give this government that had a 30% approval rating, we're going to give them more latitude to make sure that another October 7th doesn't come. And while that's certainly understandable, the consequences here are just extraordinary, extreme, and just so distressing to see the continued suffering of the Gazan people.

The humanitarian crisis is almost beyond belief in terms of the famine and destruction and death and so many women and children, and it remains unabated. And you're right, there's a real divide in Israel. There are some who, pre-October 7th, would have stood up against this, who now are supportive of the Israeli government. But we have also seen significant protest movements against Netanyahu, against what's happening here. Be curious to see what happens in the streets of Tel Aviv

and other places after this decision by the government to put forth what looks to be at least a semi-permanent occupation of the Gaza Strip. And I think Richard makes a good point here that this is going to have at least subtle and perhaps overt blessing of the Trump administration. The Netanyahu government doesn't want the two-state solution. They haven't pushed for it. We haven't heard anything from President Trump on that either. This is going to be something that likely the White House will just keep their distance and allow Israel to move forward but expect there to be real opposition from other Western capitals in the days ahead. Coming up, a look at some of the other

stories, making headlines this morning including an attack plot thwarted by police on a major pop star's concert. We'll tell you who it was and where. Plus, we'll read from Anand's piece entitled, A Cure for Trumpism, Radical Empathy and Radical Change. We'll be right back. Time now for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning at 47 past the hour. North Korea is sending thousands of migrant workers to Russia as Moscow struggles with a sliding birthrate and a huge death toll in its war on Ukraine.

As the Wall Street Journal reports, the laborers are highly prized in Russia, where they receive low wages and are willing to work 12-hour shifts without complaint. North Korea has also provided the Kremlin with weapons and soldiers. Police in Brazil say they foiled a plot to attack a Lady Gaga concert in Rio de Janeiro. Investigators say a group was planning to use improvised

explosives and Molotov cocktails to target the crowd at least one of the alleged ringleaders was arrested the free show which was not disrupted by the alleged plot drew an estimated 2 million people. Well the Copacabana Beach Lady Gaga says she was unaware of the thwarted bomb threat until learning about it from the media. And president Trump says he is directing the Bureau of prisons and other federal agencies to reopen Alcatraz in a social

media post last night Trump explained he wants to rebuild and enlarge the former federal prison in order to house America's most ruthless and violent offenders. He later told reporters the idea came to him because radicalized judges want to hold lengthy trials for all undocumented immigrants. Right now, Alcatraz is a national park. Still ahead on Morning Joe. Jonathan, do you have any reporting on this?

It was also the set, you know, it's an extremely profitable tourist destination and raises like 50 or 60 million dollars a year. This caught everyone by surprise yesterday that he suddenly floated Alcatraz, which was closed since the 1960s. It would take a lot of work to get back in condition to be an actual. So the Rock was not actually a documentary. I think it was an underrated movie though. That's a very strong Sean Connery, Nicholas Cage movie.

Oh absolutely. Yeah, that was very good. You're the rocket man. Exactly. Here's the thing. We'll bring you the latest coming up on the latest delays at Newark International Airport as United Airlines cuts its flights

amid claims of tech issues and staffing shortages. NBC's Tom Costello will join us with his new reporting. Plus, we'll dig into a new report from the Washington Post on the president's quote, 48-hour scramble to fly migrants to a Salvadorian prison. Morning Joe, we will be right back. Ladies and gentlemen, Benson boom. I hope you're doing well. She was finally leaving dinner Southside in town, left the phone a little bitter, but

it's cool for now. Far from perfect for each other, but we're working it out I suppose. that was Benson Boone performing on Saturday night live over the weekend, the show was hosted by actress and comedian Quinta Brunson on and let's get to your latest piece for the Inc. You reflect on your conversation with a candidate for U.S. Senate in Michigan, Dr. Abdul El-Sayed, about what you call a cure for Trumpism. Explain what he told to you. It was really interesting. It was one of the first times that we've been talking to lots of people

at the Inc. about how do you thwart Trumpism, but also what comes after it. Is there a different version of the future? This is one of the first times in these last months where I felt I heard something that really was a convincing view of a post-Trump future. And I would summarize it as two ideas that may be challenging for lots of Democrats. One is radical empathy for Trump supporters. This guy is a progressive in Michigan, but he was very clear about no demonizing, no contempt, always welcome people back. There's gonna be a lot of chaos, a lot of pain, as we've been talking about this morning.

No gloating about people suffering from things that they voted for. So radical empathy. But, and this is maybe harder for moderates, radical change, not going back to 2015. He said a very striking thing. He said, you know, for certain liberals who just think the whole problem is Trump and want to go back to like June of 2015, that's their own version of make America great again. So there's an idea of radical empathy that's different from the contempt we have seen,

but there's also an idea of radical change that's different from the contempt we have seen, but there's also an idea of radical change that's different from the calls for kind of moderate centrist policy we've seen. And it struck me as very interesting to have a progressive out in Michigan, not a coastal guy in a tough Senate race, saying we need to have a posture of openness and outreach to moderates and the right, but really in the economic realm be fighting for big sweeping policy that gives people something to come back to. He said we keep, we can't fight something with nothing and Democrats can't be vanilla. And I mean, I hear what you're saying.

I also hear so many Democrats who are overtaken by kind of fury at this moment. And for them, the idea of empathy is just too difficult. They're very wary of the basket of deplorables that they fell into the trap of back in 2016. But I've heard many Democrats say, that's kind of what I'm actually thinking. I don't see why I should reach out. All I want is somebody who's going to fight. Yeah, that's exactly right. That's why I wrote I'm actually thinking. I don't see why I should reach out. I want to just, all I want is somebody who's gonna fight.

Yeah, that's exactly right. That's why I wrote it and framed it that way because what you just described is psychologically understandable. It is emotionally understandable. And I think the point I made in the essay is what may be good for your mental health may be different from what it takes to win.

Well, it's also just absolutely horrific politics. What may be good for your mental health may be different from what it takes to win. Well, it's also just absolutely horrific politics. And I mean, think about it. People that voted for Ronald Reagan twice made Bill Clinton president twice. People who made Bill Clinton president twice made George W. Bush president twice. People who made George W. Bush president twice made Barack Obama president twice. Even before Donald Trump came on the stage. And you are right. And I just want to underline another part of it because I completely agree with you.

If you, Donald Trump got the most votes last time. If you are a Democrat and you want to win, you either get some of Donald Trump's voters or Democrats lose again. So this one side of it, but here's the other side of the equation too. And it's on economics. And I will say there is, you know, a circle where AOC starts here and Steve Bannon starts here, and they come together on economic populism, saying, don't give tax cuts to the rich. Some tariffs seem to make a lot of sense.

Break up the monopolies in Silicon Valley. The fact, if Democrats think they can run a Robert Rubin race in 2026, no disrespect to Robert Rubin. It certainly worked in the 90s. But that's not going to work in 2026 when you have people across the industrial Midwest and across America who have seen for the past 20 years, their jobs go away, their incomes go away, and the American dream shattered. Yeah, and actually, it's funny you mentioned those two in 2019, I think it was. I went to interview Steve Bannon for a piece about Bernie Sanders at the time in Time magazine.

And in the course of the piece, he had a lot of respect for Bernie Sanders for some of those same reasons. Right. But he said, AOC is the only Democrat I'm afraid of. He said, all these other people I find so easily beatable, I see them, I know the strategy for them. But not AOC. He was afraid of AOC.

Interesting. Again, because a lot of people may not realize this, but Steve Bannon is against tax cuts for the rich now, and he's saying it. I mean you've talked to Bannon recently, he's against tax cuts for the rich. He supports some of the tariffs but he's a fan as is I think Josh Hawley and the vice president of Lena Conn. Break up the monopolies in Silicon Valley. So there is a place where Democrats can go, where they can pull over independents, disaffected voters, who would vote for Bernie Sanders or AOC and listen to Steve Bannon's podcast. It sounds crazy in this world, but there is a through line.

There is a nexus there. Bannon, I think, does have his finger on the pulse of the MAGA movement in many ways. And you're right, he has repeatedly said on his show, his podcast, which is Listen to Within the West Wing, he speaks to people inside all the time. He is against the big tax cuts for the rich. And to this day, you mentioned 2019. Here we are in 2025. He still speaks very approvingly of AOC, thinks he's a remarkable political talent, and thinks her message is one that really resonates. All right. MSNBC political analyst, Anand Girdharadas.

Thank you so much for coming on this. We're so sorry you won't be around to talk about Bill Belichick. I know. I have so many thoughts. I wrote my dissertation on him, actually. Radical empathy. Radical empathy, yeah. Gotta have it.

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