Morning Joe - Morning Joe 5/7/25

Episode Date: May 7, 2025

Trump on trade talks: 'We don't have to sign deals'

Are you invited to a boring event that you don't want to attend? Then book it through Newark Airport and we'll make sure you never make it. Oh no, Uncle Brad, I won't be able to make your adult bar mitzvah. Darn it, Newark Airport. Muzzle. Whether it's radar outages, staffing shortages, or just pouring orange juice on all the controls. We'll find a way to ruin your flight. That's our guarantee.

Oh, I wanted to see you renew your vows so bad, but gosh darn, Newark Airport redirected my flight into a mountain. Oh, thank you, Newark. And they even lost the gift I got for you. I didn't get a gift. And now that we're upgrading to real ID technology, you'll have even more excuses. I don't even know what a real ID looks like.

Whatever you hand me, I'm just gonna say, no, that's the wrong one. Now you're getting a cavity search. And while you're stuck in this liminal purgatory from which there is no escape, enjoy our many amenities. Like the Hudson News near gate A47. And the other Hudson News near gate C46.

And if you're hungry, feast on a turkey club wrap that's been marinating in its own juices since September. Uh oh, now I have food poisoning? Guess I can't go to my high school reunion either. Newark Airport. The planes are late, but the excuses arrive right on time. Oh my god. Oh my lord, Willie. It would be funny if it wasn't so true. The reporting we have ahead is just wow. It's crazy.

Yeah, I mean, when the control tower doesn't have communication with the planes, that's a bad place to start, but there's even more we're learning as these days go on. Yes, we're gonna have that as our top story this morning, the latest on the problems plaguing Newark Airport, as we're learning more about the communication issues between air traffic controllers or lack of communication between air traffic controllers and Pilots it's unbelievable also ahead the Trump administration is set to hold trade talks this week with Chinese officials

For the first time since President Trump imposed triple-digit tariffs on Chinese imports But it appears the u.s. is not any closer to a deal with Canada, despite a visit to the White House yesterday by the country's newly elected prime minister. We'll go through all of that. Plus, we'll take a look at what an apparent ceasefire between the U.S. and the Houthis could mean for the rest of the Middle East.

And we'll get an update on what is happening in Vatican City right now as the papal conclave gets underway today. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It's Wednesday, May 7th with Willie and me. We have the three Johns, of course, the co-host of our fourth hour and contributing writer at the Atlantic, Jonathan Lemire, Roger's chair in the American presidency at Vanderbilt University, historian John Meacham, and politics bureau chief and senior political columnist for Politico Jonathan Martin, Jay Martin is here and Willie we have a lot to get to not only the problems at Newark Airport but a lot of news on trade this morning. A lot of

news on trade and we'll get all three of the Johns in on this. Trump officials will travel to Switzerland, we're now learning, later this week to hold trade talks with Chinese officials. Treasury Secretary Scott Besson confirmed the trip last night during an appearance on Fox News. It will be the first formal meeting between the two countries since President Trump raised tariffs on Chinese imports to 145 percent just over a month ago. Last night, Secretary Besson downplayed the likelihood of any deal, though, being

reached. Look, we have shared interest that this isn't sustainable, as I said before, especially on the Chinese side. And, you know, 145 percent, 125% is the equivalent of an embargo. We don't want to decouple what we want is fair trade. My sense is that this will be about de-escalation, not about the big trade deal. And, but we've got to de-escalate

before we can move forward. Meanwhile, President Trump says the United States does not need to sign trade deals. That's what he told reporters yesterday at the White House after weeks of promising deals with dozens of countries. We also have a situation, because everyone says, when, when, when are you going to sign deals? We don't have to sign deals. We could sign 25 deals right now, Howard, if we wanted. We don't have to sign deals. We could sign 25 deals right now, Howard,

if we wanted. We don't have to sign deals. They have to sign deals with us. They want a piece of our market. We don't want a piece of their market. We don't care about their market. They want a piece of our market. You keep writing about deals, deals. What are we going to sign? It's very simple. We're going to say, in some cases, we want you to open up your country. In some cases, we want you to drop your tariffs. They're going to pay for the privilege of being able to shop in the United States of America. It's very simple.

It's very simple. So I wish they'd keep, you know, stop asking, how many deals are you signing this week? Because one day we'll come and we'll give you 100 deals. And they don't have to sign. All they have to do is say, oh, we'll start sending our ships right now to pick up whatever we want or to bring whatever we want. It's very, very simple. So Jonathan Lemire, as we've been talking about for several weeks now, the entire rationale

for these tariffs coming from the president and the Trump administration was to negotiate deals. In other words, we're going to throw a 145% tariff on China to get them to the table so we can negotiate deals. He's saying you have to take this short-term pain consumer, there will be inflation coming consumer, you have to get only $2 and not $30 consumer because we're getting ready to make these deals that will benefit you in the long run. So what is he talking about there yesterday in the Oval Office? Well, on this conclave day, I'm definitely John the third or maybe John the lesser.

Who knows? I'll be certainly take a backseat to the others here. This is what more than anything, this is going to be more confusion and uncertainty. So a few things here. First of all, President Trump for days now has been saying that the US government has been talking to the Chinese beginning trade negotiations. None of that was true. He was contradicted day after day by his leading officials, including his Treasury Secretary,

saying, no, that hadn't been the case. Bess said yesterday morning, flat out, no, we haven't talked to the Chinese yet. Now there is this meeting set for this weekend in Switzerland. Now it's a preliminary one. I don't think anyone anticipates a deal being struck that moment, but at least it's a step in the right direction. But you counter that with what we heard from the president yesterday in that Oval Office meeting as he sat alongside the Prime Minister of Canada talking about, well, maybe we don't need deals.

Our economy is so strong. You just played the sound. And all that's going to do is further royal markets potentially, but also plant seeds of doubt among business leaders who don't know where to invest, who don't know what to do. Consumer's confidence, which you've already seen plunge, well, that stuff's not going to help. So I'm told that, yes, with a few countries, there has been some progress made, but relatively

small steps. And China looms as the big one. And Beijing has taken a tough stance to this point, simply by meeting the US with silence. So it's a step in the right direction, Mika, that they will have first meetings this weekend. But deals don't appear to be close. And certainly none have been done just yet. This period of uncertainty lives on as this pause

that the president initiated a few weeks ago, you know, the clock is ticking. What happens next? That remains an open question no one seems to know. Yeah. And that causes uncertainty, which causes, et cetera, et cetera. President Trump made those comments about not needing trade deals during a meeting with Canada's new prime minister. Mark Carney arrived at the White House yesterday where he and the president discussed tariffs, as well as Trump's push to annex Canada. Mr. President, you have said that Canada should become the 51st state. No, no.

Well, I still believe that, but you know, takes two to tango, right? But no, I do. I mean, I believe it would be a massive tax cut for the Canadian citizens. You get free military, you get tremendous medical cares and other things. There would be a lot of advantages. Well, if I may, as you know from real estate, there are some places that are never for sale. That's true. We're sitting in one right now, Buckingham Palace, if you visited as well. And having met with the owners of Canada over the course of the campaign last several months,

it's not for sale, won't be for sale ever. But the opportunity is in the partnership and what we can build together. We have done that in the past. They have, I must say Canada is stepping up the military participation because Mark knew, you know, they were low and now they're stepping it up and that's a very important thing. But never say never, never say never. Why? Is there anything he can say to you in the course of your meetings with him today that

would get you to lift tariffs on Canada? No. Why not? Just the way it is. See, the conflict is, and this is very friendly. This is not going to be like we had another little blow up with somebody else. That was a much different... This is a very friendly conversation, but we want to make

our own cars. We don't really want cars from Canada. And we put tariffs on cars from Canada, and at a certain point, it won't make economic sense for Canada to build those cars. So, J. Mark, I think this meeting that happened at the White House, absolutely fascinating. There's, you know what, nothing triggering about it because Mark Carney, Trump's equal, some would argue even more so, knows how to handle situations like this. Being in the finance industry, being extremely well

versed in leadership. A leader doesn't get triggered. A leader doesn't get meltdown at a comment he doesn't like. There were many comments there that Donald Trump was making that Mark Carney 100% wholeheartedly disagrees with and knows will never happened. He did not embarrass the president. At the same time, he very calmly and affably said no. He brought a well-conceived, pre-cooked, but well-delivered line with him, Mika, which is, as you know from real estate, Mr. President,

playing on the president's history, and said some places are never for sale, including this building we're in right now. Which, by the way, Trump rarely laughs, and he even chuckled at that, said some places are never for sale, including this building we're in right now, which, by the way, Trump rarely laughs, and he even chuckled at that, which tells you it was a pretty good lie. Yeah. So, look, I thought Cardi did what he had to do.

He was firm in saying Canada is not for sale. He invoked the voters of his country and just elected him as the de facto board of directors saying his country is not for sale. But Mika, this is classic Trump. You guys know this in person. When Trump is face to face with somebody, he wants to win them over. He's not going to have a confrontation with Carney in the Oval Office. He wants Carney to be his friend.

That's why it was so affable because Trump is never going to get into a tit for tat with somebody almost never. I think there's a different case with Oslensky, but Trump in person is constantly, it could be Gavin Newsom, Vladimir Putin, or Mark Carney. He wants to win that person over, and that's the Trump that you saw yesterday with Mark Carney in the Oval Office. And Carney, to his credit, didn't give Trump a reason

not to try to, you know, persuade him. I personally, Willie, I guess you can take it to Meacham, but I think there's a lot of lessons there for Republicans. You know, things don't have to be so obsequious. When there's a no, you ought to say it. Yeah. Yeah, and John Meach no, you ought to say it. Yeah. Yeah, and John Meacham, we've seen that periodically.

I was thinking about Governor Brian Kemp of Georgia announcing he's not getting in that Senate race. His conservative credentials remain intact, but during that 2020 election, he and the Secretary of State there did stand up in that moment against Donald Trump as he tried to flip that election. So it can be done. But I'm

just curious, historically, just watching these meetings are so fascinating always in the Oval Office, the two men in those two chairs with the fireplace behind them. Even President Trump invoked that meeting with President Zelensky a few months ago. What did you make of this new relationship that we're seeing and the pushback, honestly, in that way that Mika described with a light touch from the Prime Minister of Canada. Well, the Oval Office is probably one of the worst places on the planet to have an honest conversation. You're in that room.

I've been privileged to be there. I know most of us have had that great opportunity. And if you're a dork, which I am, I know that is surprising to Mika, you walk in there and you're smelling FDR secondhand smoke and you can feel can feel you know President Reagan you know nodding his head it's just great it's it's a room that is more of a stage than a negotiating space and yeah I think that there's a kind of you know there's a kind of unreality that takes over. Do it in the Oval Office, but first, A, take the Oval Office itself and the immense history

and the sense that you want to be deferential. Add the TV cameras and we're way past where the buses run, as my grandmother used to say. And so it's a very complicated space. It's why the Zelinsky conversation, which is a big to be sure, J-Mart, in terms of moments within that office, looms so large. Because when you're in that room, you want, as you all were just saying, you want this

to be congenial, historical, dignified. When it isn't, it's remarkable, which is why the president's essential contempt, I use that word advisedly, but the apparent contempt he had for Ukraine, has for Ukraine, was so vivid. And so I think that what we're watching here is an unconventional American president, to say the least, deploying the symbols of the office in this highly personalized, highly dramatic way. Remember early on in the first term, President Trump was quoted as saying he wanted every

day of his presidency to be like the episode in a reality show, where he vanquished his foes. And that's the world we're living in. Yeah. Two things. I would say the Zelensky meeting, President Trump brought others in, and it was more like a gang up. And the dynamics were very different, obviously.

And then in terms of the smell of the Oval Office and the sense of history, have you been in the Oval Office lately? It's been redecorated just a tiny bit. Just saying. It might not have that same feeling. Could be. This will surprise you that I have not been there recently, though I know what you mean. But it's still a remarkable space. I'm joking. I'm joking. It's beautiful. OK, so the editors of the National Review have a new piece, Jay Martin, titled Trump's Anti-Abundance Agenda.

And it reads in part this, policies by making a case against abundance. It's hard to think of a greater gift to Democrats during a chaotic and expensive Christmas shopping season than footage of Trump, who never faced the prospect of either a child or a parent of having to make do with last, yammering about American children being so spoiled. It would be one thing if there were reason to believe that the short-term sacrifices Trump is asking of the American public were accompanied by a plausible path toward a payoff, somewhere in the future, near future. But unless Trump backs off or his unilateral assumption of tariff power is blocked by Congress or the courts, Americans will suffer real pain.

Dismissing the legitimate economic concerns of American consumers has never been a winning political strategy. And Jonathan Martin, that is—I mean, every conversation we've ever had and every election we have covered has come back to, yeah, this is going on and that's going on, but it's about Americans' day-to-day concerns, kitchen table issues. How much does the car insurance cost? How much does gas cost? How much do their groceries cost?

It comes down to their life. And Trump just ran a campaign, which was not based upon, you know, austerity. Trump never said during the campaign, you know, the good times are going to roll after a few years of sacrifice and less gifts for your kids for Christmas and some real pain. No, the pledge of the campaign was like, we're going to rock and roll America's golden ages here. So there's a bit of a rug pull if you will. I'm confused. Yeah.

So what happened to that? So I think that aside, look, I think take your medicine is just never a good message for the American voter. They don't want to hear it. And I think the idea that American voters are going to be willing to pay more for goods, boy, if you believe that, I got news for you. We just had an administration that got rejected, I think in large part, because of inflation. So I'm skeptical that voters are willing to accept that.

And just real fast to come back to the first clip you played of Trump yesterday in the Oval saying that people want to be in our market, we don't wanna be selling goods in their markets. That is such a profound misread of the economy of this country. Trump should go to fly over country, talk to farmers in ag states. Where does he think we send our goods that we grow here in this country?

It's not all for the American consumers. So this is a real challenge we're going to face. And I think the markets are mostly looking for good news and Besant is going to China, and the markets are responding to that. But this is the great question. Who is actually going to set policy for the administration? Donald Trump and his off the cuff rhetoric,

or the folks like Scott Besant who are actually doing policy negotiations with the Chinese. It's unclear to me. Democrats are going to be asking golden age for who? Not for you. I mean, this is only a golden age, I guess, for people who are billionaires and Trump and his family. Politics bureau chief and senior political columnist for Politico.

Jonathan Martin, thank you so much for being on this morning and still ahead on Morning Joe. In a dramatic military escalation, India launches deadly airstrikes on Pakistan. It's part of a long simmering conflict between the two nuclear powers. We'll have the very latest from overseas. Plus, it appears the communications outage that impacted flights at Newark International Airport last week has happened before. Those new details are straight ahead on Morning Joe. We're back in 90 seconds. As delays and cancellations continue to affect flights in and out of Newark International

Airport, NBC News has learned the communications blackout that took place last week with air traffic control has happened before. According to a current veteran controller, the breakdown that resulted in air traffic control losing all radar and radio contact with pilots has happened at least two other times since August alone. On top of that, the veteran controller also telling NBC News radios alone have gone down as many as nine times in recent months, meaning the tower is not talking to the planes. The Federal Aviation Administration did not immediately respond to requests for comment

about these claims. Meanwhile, newly released audio captured air traffic control talking about the communication outage that affected those flights at Newark last week. I just got told that the approach lost all the radars. Three of the four radar screens went black and they have no frequency. They want you to be advised that they may not be able to radar contact you because of the radar issues and they may lose you for certain times when you're flying. They want you to be advised of all of that. That in the busiest air traffic corridor in the United States.

The U.S. and the Iran-backed Houthi rebels have agreed to stop targeting each other for now. President Trump announced a ceasefire yesterday. Later in the day, the government Oman said it brokered the agreement. This comes after well over a year of Houthi attacks on U.S. vessels in the Red Sea and other waters. President Trump spoke about the agreement yesterday. We had some very good news last night.

The Houthis have announced that they are not, or they've been announced to us at least, that they don't wanna fight anymore. They just don't wanna fight. And we will honor that. And we will stop the bombings and they have capitulated but more importantly we will take their word they say they will not be blowing up ships anymore

and that's the purpose of what we were doing. Can you tell us a bit more about the deal that you've reached with the Houthis? No, it's not a deal. They've said please don't bomb us anymore and we're not going to attack your ships. It doesn't matter where I hear the very good source. Very, very good source. Would you say Marco? I would say pretty good. Right, JD?

A very good source. Joining us now NBC News senior national security correspondent Courtney Qubey. Courtney, good morning. What more can you tell us about this deal and how it came together? Yeah. So it appears that this was, as you said, brokered by the Omani government between the Houthis and the United States. But that appears to be how narrow this is at this point, Willie.

And why that's so important is the Houthis have been attacking ships in the Red Sea, in the Babel Mendeb since about November of 2023. Frankly, they were doing it before that, but it really ticked up after the attacks on October 7th. And they were going after not only commercial shipping, but also military ships. Well, the Biden administration, they took a number of strikes, but the attacks continued on March 15th, just over a month ago, about seven weeks ago, actually, the Trump administration began this new offensive. They call it Operation Rough Rider.

And they have been pounding the Houthi rebels in Yemen for those seven weeks, taking over a thousand or going after a thousand targets in Yemen in the Houthi controlled areas. But what's so critical here is despite that overwhelming US military air power that has gone after the Houthis, they have still been able to contest much of the airspace over Yemen, shooting down at least seven US drones. Just in the last few days, they landed a missile right next to a major international airport in Tel Aviv.

They fired two missiles towards Israel last week. So they have still shown the ability, despite this campaign against them, to continue fighting. Generally not landing anything with success, but still fighting, Willie. So now we have, much to the surprise of every single official who I spoke to about this yesterday, the Omanis came to the United States and said, look, the Houthis, if you stop bombing them as part of this operation, Rough Rider, they will stop attacking US ships. What that doesn't explain and what we still have no answers to is will they also stop attacking the other commercial shipping throughout the area?

So this is throughout the Red Sea, the Babel Mendevan, and even up into the Suez and not just the shipping, but what about the Houthi attacks on Israel? The reason that the Houthis have stepped up in recent weeks, their attacks is because they are protesting the Israeli military offensive in Gaza and they are protesting the blockade of aid and medicine and food that the Israelis have put around Gaza, not allowing anything in since March 2nd. As long as that continues, it seems as if the Houthis will continue to go after Israel. So this appears to be very narrow. US military officials saying, look, operation Rough Rider was always about freedom of navigation. But again, we still haven't gotten an answer to exactly how far that freedom of navigation

extends. Is it just for US ships or is it to all commercial ships? That is a hugely important commercial shipping area throughout there. But remember, since November of 2023, when these attacks really stepped up, a lot of those ships have just started being rerouted. Insurance companies, shipping companies have all taken that into account. The reality is the Houthis have had a huge impact on commercial shipping, and the world is responding and responded by avoiding that area, Willie.

And as history has shown us, and we've seen even recently with Hamas, ceasefire deals with terrorist groups are always very shaky. You touched on a major part of this I wanted to get back to a little bit. The Times of Israel, we put up that headline just this morning saying explicitly the Houthis say, this does not apply to Israel. We are still going to be attacking Israel. So do you have any sense about the degree to which Prime Minister Netanyahu or anyone on his team inside the Israeli government was cut into this deal, or is this strictly

between the United States and the Houthis? So at this point, it seems to be very narrow between the US and the Houthis. And remember, I mentioned that attack that the Houthis were able to pretty successfully level on Tel Aviv over the weekend. The Israelis have responded with massive attacks on Yemen, on the Houthi areas, on the port of Sana'a, successful attacks that we have been hearing about where they have been taking out infrastructure, going after Houthi command and control. And at this point, it doesn't appear that either side is going to step back from that specific case.

And it's not just that. The Houthis, as they have been attacking, the US military has had ships in the area. They've been able to shoot down or intercept Houthi drones, Houthi missiles, many times that are expected, believed to be heading towards Israel. Well, now that there is this agreement, the president said not to call it a deal, whatever this is between the US and the Houthis not to attack one another, does that mean that the US military will no longer stay in the Red Sea or throughout that area to help intercept those missiles and drones? That's another question that we have. And it comes just hours

after we learned that another US military jet, an F-18, that was flying off of the USS Harry S. Truman went into the Red Sea late yesterday. This is pretty stunning. This is the second F-18 that has been lost off the aircraft carrier in that region in just over a week. I mean, this is like a wartime footing. Now in both cases, in one case it literally fell off. It literally went over the side in rough waters. In the case last night, it was coming in for a landing. It appears that, um, that it missed the tripwire and it went literally, I mean, I've, I've seen hundreds of these, these arrested landings on an aircraft carrier. If the tail hook misses the tripwire, it literally just keeps going off towards

the front of the carrier and keeps taking off. In this case, it seems they may not have had the propulsion or something. And the aircraft went into the Red Sea. Fortunately, both pilots were able to eject, but it just shows the tremendous amount of military capability that the US has dedicated to this mission. Yeah, that jet just skidding off the back of the aircraft. Carrie, as you said, the two pilots ejected safely with minor injuries, but that plane is lost at sea. NBC News Senior National Security Correspondent Courtney Kuby, a lot to go through this morning. We appreciate it.

Thanks, Courtney. Mika? Yeah, thanks, Courtney. India and Pakistan are on edge this morning after India fired a series of missiles overnight into the disputed region of Kashmir and the Pakistani province, Punjab. The blasts killed at least 26 people. Pakistan is now vowing to respond, calling the attack an act of war. Let's bring in NBC News chief international correspondent Kier Simmons. Kier, what's going on? What's the latest?

Well, Mika, this wasn't a surprise. India had been indicating that it was likely to retaliate, indicating to allies and partners around the world that retaliation was likely. After last month, what it described as a terrorist attack killed dozens of mainly Indian tourists and left India blaming Pakistan for that militant attack. So it launched these strikes over less than an hour. It said it hit nine different sites. The Pakistan says that three areas were hit. It says, as you mentioned, that 26 civilians were killed. In fact, both

countries say that they have lost civilians either side of the line of control. The Indians say 10 civilians were killed in its area of Kashmir, if you like, when the Pakistanis responded to the Indian strikes. But this is significant because it looks like it's the furthest that India has reached into Pakistan. It didn't just hit Pakistani-administered Kashmir. It struck further into the country. The furthest that it struck, it appears since the 1970s. And of course, it is very, very dangerous because, as we know, both countries are nuclear capable. So for them to have taken these tensions, these escalating tensions

into attacking each other, that is a another level and another crisis between India and Pakistan and a serious challenge for the Trump administration. The Secretary of State Marco Rubio, who of course is also now acting as the National Security Advisor, saying that he has spoken to his opposite number in both countries and is urging both countries to keep lines of communication open. It looks like the president learned about these attacks just as he was going into a meeting with the press president. And he had some comments almost in the minutes and hours after the attacks.

Take a listen. It's a shame. We just heard about it just as we were walking in the doors of the oval. I just heard about it. I guess people knew something was going to happen based on a little bit of the past. They've been fighting for a long time. You know, they've been fighting for many, many decades and centuries actually, if you really think about it.

No, I just hope it ends very quickly. Amika, both countries have seen this kind of escalation before. That being said, the United Nations warning that, as it says, the world cannot afford a conflict between India and Pakistan. NBC's Keir Simmons, thank you so much for your reporting. We appreciate it. And coming up on Morning Joe, cardinals from around the world are in Vatican City right now as the conclave to select a new pope is set to begin today. We'll take a closer look at that process and some of the top contenders straight ahead on Morning Joe. All right, live look at the Vatican at 39 past the hour.

The conclave to vote for a new pope begins today. The cardinals are currently at St. Peter's Basilica for Mass, and then will travel to the Sistine Chapel for the first vote this afternoon. Joining us now to talk about this, MSNBC contributor Mike Barnicle, as well as the host of Way Tourly, Ali Vitale. And Ali, you have an explanation of the conclave. So break it down for us. What can we expect to play out?

Yeah, breaking down how this is going to work. And we brought the big board out just for you, Mika, so we can explain this in full. Thank you. Because this is going to start, of course. I heard you're a fan. So we're going to start, of course, with how the balloting is going to progress.

We're talking about 133 cardinals voting this year. They have to be under the age of 80. And the majority of these cardinals were actually created by Pope Francis himself. It may or may not be indicative of the way that they're thinking about who the next pope should be. They're going to cast secret ballots until two-thirds of a majority

is reached. It's feeling a little bit like Congress in that way. And look, we're always on smoke watch starting just a few hours from now when they do that first balloting round. If we see black smoke, it means they've got to keep going for future rounds. If we see white smoke, it means that a new pope has been elected. So all eyes are going to be there. But walking through a few of the names that we may be hearing throughout this process, here are five key people that

we're keeping an eye on. Though, of course, there could be some surprises. The first of them Cardinal Matteo Zuppi. he's the Archbishop of Bologna, 69-year-old Italian known as a peacemaker for his conflict resolution work. Specifically, he was Pope Francis' peace envoy in the Ukraine War. He's someone who's known by both liberal and conservative watchers as someone who was very close to Pope Francis. His ideology is of the progressive or centrist bent. Then we move to Cardinal Pietro Perilin.

He's someone we're gonna hear about a lot because he's the guy who's actually presiding over the papal election. So whether or not his name is even in the mix, he's going to be someone that is central to this process. He's known as a diplomat himself and his ideology is centrist as well. Moving on then to Cardinal Peter Erdo,

the Archbishop of Budapest, a 72-year-old Hungarian man. He's a professor and author who specializes in canon law, has taught, of course, on that issue, also written books about this as well. His ideology, more conservative, especially compared to the way that Pope Francis himself had talked about gays and gay marriage. Cardinal Luis Tagle, he's also someone who's known for his work with the poor

as well as his openness to the LGBTQ plus community. His ideology progressive would also be the first Asian pope if elected. And then finally, bringing you to Cardinal Pier Battista Pizzaballa, 60 year old Italian considered young for this process, and that's actually one of the concerns that some people might have about them.

He's known for his interfaith work, but most of his positions are actually largely unknown because he is seen as an outsider to the Vatican, so that's something that's going to come into play as we go through this process as well. And look, when it comes to how long this could take, it could be as long as five days. It took 14 ballots back in 1922 for Pope Pius,

all the way to as quick as two days and three ballots. We know we're only getting one today, and then of course we'll pick up tomorrow. Maybe that's the fast version of this process. But when you look at the most recent six papal elections that we've seen, Pope Francis was among the shortest of them.

You've got him in 2013, two days, five ballots. Pope Benedict, two days, four ballots, and on and on. So we'll see exactly how long this process is going to go. But John Lemire, all eyes again on that chimney above the

Sistine Chapel as we wait to see what these 100-plus Cardinals actually choose to do. All right. Thanks to Ali Viti there at the Conclave Big Board. Thank you, Ali. And now let's bring in Morning Joe's resident Vatican watcher, Mike Barnicle. Mike, there seems to be a couple schools of thought here.

On one, there had been this sense that perhaps it would be a reaction to Francis. We see that often in American politics, where maybe it's more conservative pope chosen next, though maybe from a historic location, perhaps Africa or Asia. But we also know that Francis himself installed a lot of cardinals during his time, many of whom were more progressive ilk like he is. So there seems to be a real mystery this time around.

There's no obvious heir apparent. What will you be watching for as things get started later today there in Vatican City? You know, this could actually be an epic change within the Catholic Church depending on who is the next pope. It's a little like watching American politics. It's a little like looking at the Congress of the United States. You have a progressive wing of certain parties, a moderate wing, and a conservative wing. That's not that much different from the College of Cardinals.

The other aspect is, and Ali just mentioned that in her excellent summation of potential candidates, I kind of doubt it'll be a 60-year-old cardinal who then would probably be in office, in office, be the pope for like 20, 25 years. And I somehow sense from talking to religious people that most of the cardinals wouldn't want to take that risk of someone there for 25 years. So it's going to be, it could be the first Asian pope, it could be the first African pope. But Francis's legacy is the root of, I think, my opinion, the root of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is in the forgiveness business. That's why there's a sacrament called confession. And the forgiveness business indicates that you're more moderate, that you're more understanding, that you're more willing to listen to people. And the idea that the certain percentage of cardinals want to revert back to a more conservative church, I think that would not be a blessing for the Catholic Church. And Pope Francis in some ways maybe remembered best for his line, who am I to judge, which

gets exactly what Mike is saying there. John Meacham so what we talked about the Oval Office as a stage how about the Sistine Chapel where now these Cardinals will be locked inside will be waiting for the smoke. People feel like there's a this new engagement about it because of the movie Conclave that was just out a few months ago won an Academy where people feel like they understand the process a little bit better. But obviously predictions about these things

are almost always wrong. So I won't make you do that, John, but just an idea of the process and what goes on under Michelangelo's frescoes there. Well, so the scriptural traditional route of what's unfolding is when Jesus says to Peter, you're the rock on which I will build my church. And one of the things that's reassuring even to us hapless Protestants is that Peter was

a pretty flawed guy, imperfect, denied the Lord at critical moments, and yet he got it right in the end. And that's the story to go to Cardinal Barnacle's point. That's the story of faith that we don't get things right most of the time. It's one of the reasons we have to have faith. It's one of the reasons we have sacraments is the gap between what we're supposed to do and what we do. And the church exists to be a manifestation of the divine drama that,

for those of us who believe, believe that that drama infuses the origins, course, and destiny of life with a larger meaning and with a sign point, a sign pointing us toward what we should do. And so as frail and fallible as all these human institutions are, there's something I find reassuring about the continuity of this tradition. Someone pointed out,

this is probably the oldest running election ever. And there's a sense, again, even for those of us who are not Roman Catholic, that the church is at work. And as long as the church is at work, perhaps there's hope. And Mika, Willie mentioned, of course, the movie Conclave. Politico Europe actually has a terrific and fun story out today, noting because there

are so many new cardinals, because Francis appointed so many cardinals who therefore have never sat through a conclave themselves, many of them have been watching the movie in recent days to get tips on how the process works. That's funny. That's amazing. Historian John Meacham, thank you so much for being on this morning. We do appreciate it. Time now for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. There is a new leader in Germany.

Conservative lawmaker Friedrich Merz was confirmed as the country's chancellor on his second attempt after failing to secure enough votes in the initial parliamentary vote. He has pledged to boost Germany's stalled economy and restore the nation's leadership in Europe. A Soviet era spacecraft is expected to come crashing back to earth in the coming days. It was launched on a mission to Venus back in 1972, but never escaped in orbit around the earth. Experts say the craft could survive its trip

through the atmosphere, but the risk to people on the ground is very small. First Lady Melania Trump is hosting an event at the White House today in honor of former First Lady Barbara Bush. Former President George W. Bush, however, is not expected to attend. As the Washington Post reports, Bush has kept his distance from President Donald Trump politically for years. He did not endorse Trump during any of his three presidential runs, while nonetheless

congratulating Trump on his victories and attending both his inaugurations. And what's interesting about that is he did an event with the opposition leader in Belarus, promoting freedom and democracy in Belarus. Okay. And moving on, an eight-year-old boy in Kentucky used his mother's phone to order 70,000 Dum Dum lollipops to share with his friends. I don't see the problem.

By the time she saw the Amazon order, 22 cases of Dum Dums had already been delivered to her front door. The boy said he was planning to host a carnival. His mom said she also fainted when she saw the $4,000 bill, but has since sorted out a refund. She has also changed some of the settings on her phone. Willie, I think that's probably a good idea.

These phones, they're just, they never end well, do they? 70,000, that's a lot of friends that young man has. And by the way, this is not the first story like this I've heard, we've had people we know who's young children. All you gotta do is pick up mom or dad's phone, go to the Amazon app, and whatever your heart desires can arrive at your doorstep by tomorrow morning, it's incredible.

All right, still ahead, we'll show you the unbelievable finish, truly shocking last night in Cleveland, as the Indiana Pacers stun the Cavs and take a 2-0 lead over the number one seed in that series. Also ahead this morning, the chair of the Democratic National Committee, Ken Martin, joins us to discuss President Trump's first 100 days and the looming budget fight on Capitol Hill.

Plus, Republican Senator Tom Tillis is taking a stand against one of President Trump's nominations. We'll tell you who that is and why the senator is against it. Morning, Joe's coming right back. They've got this basketball in. It's going to be a one-point game. You know you're going to get fouled. If you're the cat, your guys have got to do a much better job of getting open. Misses Halliburton, the rebound. Teckens, they do have a timeout. Carlisle's gonna let him play. Halliburton steps back and hits. Wow, Tyrese Halliburton delivering again for the Pacers.

That step back, game winning three pointer with just over a second left in regulation. Caps an 8-0 run for Indiana in the final minute. They were down seven with less than a minute to go and stormed back. Cleveland couldn't get a good shot off. Pacers absolutely stunned the Cavs 120 to 119. The Pacers now hold a two nothing lead in their Eastern Conference semifinals and get to go home now to Indiana for game three on Friday night. John Lemire, I was watching this live. It seemed impossible.

The Pacers were down 20 at one point, down seven points with less than a minute to go. A turnover by the Cavs. Halliburton getting his own rebound on that missed free throw and then hitting the game winning three. It was truly shocking. The crowd was just standing in stunned silence there in Cleveland. Donovan Mitchell for the Cavs, 48 points, was exhausted at the end of the game, did everything he could do. But now the number one seed in the East goes down to nothing and heading on the road. Scoring seven points in the final minute, as you say, should be impossible.

Except the Pacers have done that two of their last three games That's how they closed out the Milwaukee Bucks in game five of that series in the first round, too It just amazing Tyrese Halliburton, you know is announcing himself as a superstar To the league this Pacers team look there. They're a fun squad all year. They play High octane offense not a lot of defense but were viewed as a dangerous postseason team and we're seeing it right now to win both games in Cleveland so to go up 2-0 coming home the Cavs also had a bunch of injuries two of their top four players Garland and Mobley are out I know some Cavs fans last night they weren't quite comparing

that to the famous Michael Jordan shot over Craig Elo in Cleveland in terms of a heartbreaking defeat, but it's not that far off. You know, it did now a really uphill battle to have to go to Indiana down 0-2. Yeah, and they were totally in control of that game, and it just kind of came undone very quickly there. As you point out, Mobley, who was the NBA's

Defensive Player of the Year, he's with the Cavs. He was out, and their great point guard Darius Garland out as well. We'll see if they come back for game three. In the Western Conference Golden State Warriors rolled to a 99-88 road win over the

Minnesota Timberwolves in their second round opener despite Steph Curry leaving the game last night. Big worries among Warriors fans the star point guard leaving after suffering a hamstring strain in the second quarter did not return to the game. He's set to undergo an MRI today and may not be available for game two

tomorrow night in Minneapolis. So that's the NBA playoffs. Jonathan Lemire. It's amazing that all the road teams have won these first games against number one seeds against higher seeds. Obviously, the second round, the road team is oh, and the road team is five and oh, which is stunning. I was really surprised by that score as well. The Warriors had to play a hard fought game seven two nights ago. The Timberwolves have had a week off and yet Golden State wins even without Curry. And then, of course, tonight, game two, Celtics-Nicks after the Celtics collapse in game one, Knicks played so well down the stretch.

It's a must win. It's a must win for Boston. They think they're going to get Porzingis back if they fall down to two. They're in big trouble. Wow. Tamika. All right. You guys are down with sports. That's amazing. We are down with sports. I thought you would go on literally forever, but you hit the top of the hour. Three, two, one.

Perfectly. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.