Morning Joe - Morning Joe 5/8/23

Episode Date: May 8, 2023

Texas mall shooting suspect had AR-15 and interacted with neo-Nazi content online, officials say

I work around people that have mental health issues. I don't know what the gunman's problem was. I don't know his motive. But it wasn't mental health that killed these people. It was an automatic rifle with bullets. That's what killed them. I'm a gun lover. I have guns.

I'm a former police officer. I'm a former Army officer. But these M4s and AR-15s, they've got to get off the streets, or this is going to keep happening. Precision condolences won't bring these people back. We need some action in our legislatures at the federal and state level for better gun control. And I'm saying that as somebody who loves guns. What Texas is doing in a big-time way, we are working to address that anger and violence by going to its root cause, which is addressing the mental health

problems behind it. We know that Texas had been lagging in addressing mental health for years, and that's why over the past three sessions, we've added almost $25 billion to address mental health. We're in the waning days of a session right now where we will be adding even more funding. It's just it really I mean, right now there are law enforcement officers who believe that white supremacy is behind this, who are looking at some of the shooters computers. And this is what they're saying. And he goes on and he talks about, again, he's just always off. He's always wrong. He's always off about guns. He will do anything.

He'll do a bait and switch. Compare Texas's mental health treatment to anybody else's in the world. And by the way, their mental health problems in Belgium, their mental health problems in Britain. You don't think their mental health problems in Belgium, their mental health problems in Britain. You don't think their mental health problems in London? There aren't shootings in London like there are in Texas.

It seems like every day, every other day. And this guy also, he talks about illegal immigrants getting shot, first of all, heinous. And you talk to people who want this slaughter to continue, who want AR-15s on the street for everybody. They'll go, oh, well, you don't ever talk about how the shooter was an illegal. Well, yeah, let's talk about that. How did a guy who was deported four times, four times, how did he get an AR-15? How did he get all the other weapons? How are all of these people getting weapons? I mean, you know, the thing is, Abbott will do anything.

But talk about the issue that is in front of him. The murders in Texas since 2014 by guns have skyrocketed. And all this guy does is say he wants more guns in the state of Texas. It's sick. This is a sickness. What you first heard was a former police officer who responded to the deadly mass shooting at an outlet mall in Texas. And then that response from Texas Governor Greg Abbott when he was asked about overwhelmingly popular gun safety measures and whether the state legislature would consider them.

He chose only to focus on mental health. We'll have a live report from Allen, Texas in just a moment. It's really sick. Yeah, well, it's really- It's gun culture. It's really sick. Coming to a, it's really culture. It's really coming home or a public place near you. This isn't even gun culture. This this is the most extreme

radicalized version. I grew up in a gun culture where people would go hunting in the fall. This was this was normal. Right. There's nothing normal about these AR-15s being so easy to get a hold of that even an illegal immigrant who is deported four times feels free to shoot it in his front yard before slaughtering his neighbors. morning, Joe. President Joe Biden defends his decision to send troops to the southern border as a covid related immigration restriction is set to expire this week. It comes as there is new polling this morning that shows the president's approval rating sinking and on the wrong side of a potential rematch with Donald Trump in twenty twenty four. But there's one key number for Trump in that poll that should have Republicans quite concerned as well. With us, we have the host of Way Too Early, White House bureau chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, the host of MSNBC's Politics Nation, president of the National Action Network, Reverend Al Sharpton, former aide to the George W. Bush White House and State Department's Elise Jordan

is with us and founder of the conservative website, The Bulwark. Charlie Sykes joins us this morning. Charlie, I just I want to get your response to Greg Abbott. You know, he he was once in I was once in his party here. Here you have an estate, a state that just, I mean, is just going up in flames, a state where migrants are run over on Sunday mornings, a state where people are gunned down while they go to shopping malls, a state where nobody's safe even inside their own churches, that they get gunned down inside their churches, estate, where my God, people aren't even safe inside their own home. And if we want to use Greg Abbott's twisted logic, inside their own home, because an illegal immigrant who's been deported repeated times still can get his hands on an AR-15 and shoot it out in the yard before going in and slaughtering

a nine-year-old child. I am so sick of talking about these mass shootings because we go into this doom loop of arguments over and over and over again. And we're seeing this again, this toxic stew of insanity, ignorance, hypocrisy, political cowardice, the kinds of things that we're hearing from Greg Abbott, who tried to make this into, you know, a whole story about illegal immigrants as opposed to the inhumanity of all of this. You know, I mean, honestly, and I've said this before, if if what happened to Sandy Hook did not shake this nation into into action, I don't know what would. And we're seeing this play out on a regular basis where we're seeing these mass shootings. Texas clearly has a problem and it's a problem beyond just simply mental health. It is a problem of these AR-15s and what they do to the human body.

And the question is, you know, how much carnage are we going to tolerate? I mean, the Republican Party has been dining out on the notion that it is the law and order party for a very, very long time. And with every week, it becomes more absurd. It really does. Let's get right to the story in Texas. Eight people were killed, several others injured on Saturday when a gunman opened fire at an outlet mall in Allen, Texas, a suburb of Dallas. We want to warn our viewers that some of the footage is disturbing. Dash cam video, which police confirms is authentic, shows the moment the alleged gunman got out of his car and began firing. Police have identified him as 33-year-old suspected neo-Nazi sympathizer.

He was wearing a tactical vest armed with an AR-15 style assault weapon and a handgun. The suspect was killed by police who was an officer happened to be in the area on an unrelated call. Authorities have not released a motive, but investigators are examining hundreds of social media posts that include racially or ethnically motivated extremist rhetoric, including material espousing white supremacy. Joining us now from Allen, Texas, senior national correspondent for NBC News, Jay Gray. Jay, what more can you share with us? Well, Mika, as far as the investigation goes, you're right. No motive. They are centered on those hundreds of posts from several different social media outlets that he had, several different things that he posted online and interacted with online. A lot of it neo-Nazi and white supremacists, as you talk about.

They have searched his home. They will continue today to interview his family and friends. He lives in Dallas and was said to be a loner, someone who didn't spend much time in the neighborhood. He was wearing a tactical vest at the time of the attack and had more ammunition, more weapons inside the vehicle. Let's get to the victims here. We still don't have any official information about these victims. We do know that at least three of those wounded in the attack are still in the hospital in critical condition this morning. Witnesses here, survivors say there was really

no warning, that they just suddenly heard the crack of rapid gunfire, followed by panic and fear. We start hearing, rock, rock, rock. No way. We thought it had to be roofing. He walks up, he's seeing the pillars in front of our store get hit by rounds. There was dead people on the floor. A lot of people, they were like, you know, hiding. He's saying the pillars in front of our store get hit by rounds. four-year-old that was under one of the victims that was not breathing and asked the kid, I said, are you okay? I assume it was a boy, but there was so much blood I couldn't tell if it was a boy or a girl. Yeah, and look, the massacre here, the second deadliest in the U.S. this year, and the second mass shooting in Texas in just over a week. Mika, I was just in London covering the coronation. Crowds of tens of thousands lining the street. Never a hint of any concern about any type of gun violence. But

here in Texas, going shopping for the weekend became deadly. My God. NBC's Jay Gray, thank you very much. You know, that's quite an insight by Jay really quickly, because I remember people commenting that when we were over at the Queen's funeral, people making the same comments that that how how sad that that when you're in crowds in other countries and London, when there are throngs there, you're not sitting there thinking about the possibility of a mass shooting. And yet in America, in our country, especially in the state of Texas, everybody has to be on guard if they go into a grocery store, if they go into a church where there are mass shootings, if they go to a country music festival where there are mass shootings, if you go into a strip mall where there are shootings, even if you're a little kid inside your own house where they're mass shootings. It's just again, it's it's just it's inexcusable. And it is a choice that Texans are making. It is a choice that Floridians are making. It is a choice that Americans are making every day. They don't force their state legislatures and their governors

to protect their families, protect their loved ones. Speaking of that, the editorial board of the Dallas Morning News has a direct message to the governor of Texas, and it reads in part like this. Governor Abbott, you responded that this was an unspeakable tragedy. We tell you that it was not unspeakable and that the people of Texas need you to speak to it and its cause. There is nothing conservative about refusing to acknowledge evidence or give voice to the true nature of a problem. You must speak to the terrible imbalance that you and Republican leaders have created between the individual liberty of nearly unrestricted ownership of the most powerful rifles and guns versus the increasing decline in society's ability to function without

constant fear of violent death. This has to stop. You cannot say this is unspeakable tragedy and move on. A leader must have the courage to speak. You must look at this horror, at the devastation wrought on these people, and you must summon the will to act to change the laws that have put us in this terrible place. And you know what he and other Republicans would say to that. You know what he would say. He would say mental health, mental health. Look over here. Well, what's he doing about mental health, by the way? Nobody believes it anymore. I look at funding in Texas for mental health compared to other states. I'm sure it's near the bottom or close to the bottom. I mean, there's always this talk about mental health.

Anytime you corner somebody in a debate about weapons of war and how little children are being slaughtered and how people are being, worshipers are being slaughtered in churches, in synagogues, at country music festivals, at shopping malls, and they have nowhere to go, they go mental health, mental health, ignoring the fact that their mental health problems in London, their mental health problems in Paris, their mental health problems across Europe. But the United States, far and beyond any other industrialized country, any other Western country. The numbers are staggeringly high here compared to everywhere else where they have as many mental problems as the United States does. And Elise Jordan, you have a group of migrants being run down and killed. Look at this. The U.S. has by far the highest child and teen firearm mortality rate

among peer countries. Our little children are being slaughtered. And Greg Abbott has nothing to say about it. He just wants to change the subject. But after Greg Abbott cynically, cruelly looked at a rampage inside of a home where children, a child and his mother and family slaughtered by an AR-15. And yes, an illegal immigrant. The question is, how did he get that AR-15? The governor cynically and cruelly focused on the immigration status of these poor people and that little boy that were slaughtered

and called them illegal immigrants right off the top, just inhumane. But he wanted to focus on that illegal immigrants. So is it any surprise that we have migrants being run over since with this sort of lack of leadership, this sort of cynicism, this sort of hatred in Texas? Is it any surprise that we have migrants on Sunday morning, some of them probably going to church, getting run over while they're waiting for a bus or that we have a neo-Nazi sympathizers, possible white supremacists going to malls to gun down other people. I mean, this is there is a sickness in the state of Texas, and that sickness starts at the very top with Greg Abbott, who refuses to protect little children in the state of Texas, whether it's at school or whether it's his church or whether it's at shopping malls or even inside their own homes.

Joe, how is this anything but homegrown extremism? How are we not responding to this in a way equal to after 9-11? I mean, took that terrorist threat pretty seriously, perhaps, you know, went a little overboard in some areas, but that's another here and there. But we just sit around and do absolutely nothing while these high capacity magazines are freely available for assault rifles and assault weapons. And I just, you know, how does this 33 year old have a tactical vest? How does he have this kind of gear? How is it so readily available that a normal citizen can outgun a cop? You heard that bystander talking about what they saw and the child covered in so

much blood, he couldn't tell if it was a boy or a girl, a four-year-old. And yet we are doing absolutely nothing differently. It takes a while to get a driver's license and you can fail that test. But apparently anyone can have a gun pretty much in this country. Just like you have to wear a seatbelt. But, you know, are people allowed to walk around with bombs, live grenades? Because if you look at the destruction that these AR-15 style weapons are causing upon the human body. I just makes this makes no sense. It makes no sense. And everybody should go back and they should look at the Washington Post article that studies the different when an AR-15 bullet went in the human body and other bullets.

It so clearly was designed as a weapon of war, which it was a weapon of war. And and its only use is to kill multiple people. And that is what has happened as quickly as possible. That is its only use. And we've said it time and time again, as somebody that owns guns, if you want to stop somebody in your house, if there's an intruder in your house, take out the shotgun. Hard to miss, does the job and does the job better than an AR-15 inside close quarters. Anybody that knows anything about guns can tell you that. But anyway, Rev, after 9-11, we did everything we could do. Ali said some people suggested that we did too much. Dick Cheney talked about the 1% solution. If there was a 1% chance

that something bad was going to happen, he was going to do everything to stop that 1%. Here we are in 2023, and people are getting gunned down every day in states like Texas. And 90% of Americans want universal background checks. 75% of Americans want red flag laws. The majority of Americans want military-style weapons like AR-15s banned. And what do Republicans say other than the 10 who voted for reform in the Senate? What do Republicans say? We can't do anything. We're helpless. I'm sorry. 80 percent want red flag laws. They say we can't do anything. We're weak. We're we're we're inept. We're we're we're we're just pathetic, pathetic legislators that can't stop the killing of little children. There's nothing we can do. I mean, this is Americans don't think this way. Rev Americans have never thought this way, especially when their loved ones are being slaughtered. And yet that's what Republicans want us to think, because they care more about the gun lobby and gun manufacturers making money than they do protecting little children in malls, little children in churches,

little children in synagogues, and little children even inside their own homes. It is almost as if you would say on one hand you have a gun, another hand your child, and you show more love to the gun than your child. I mean, it is really that serious. And for Governor Abbott to try and duck the issue by saying we need to deal with the mental health issue, all of us need to deal with the mental health issue. All of us want to deal with the mental health issue. You're hosting a special on that tonight, primetime. But that does not address what is available now.

If you really believe there was a mental health issue, Governor Abbott, and there is, that's all the more reason why you wouldn't have AR-15 and military weapons available to people until we deal with the mental health issue. It is absolutely insulting to our intelligence to leapfrog the immediate to deal with the justified long-term problem of mental health. And for these people to be sitting in a state

that has seen this consistently happen right in their state, at some point they're going to have to rise up and put people in office that will deal with the issue and not try to kick the can down the road. In terms of protecting children, there is social media footage from this shooting. We, of course, will not show it here. That shows a little girl blown apart by an AR-15. It is too graphic to behold. The state of Texas, this is just since 2017. Mass shootings, those killed. 2017, Plano, Texas, nine dead. 2017, Sutherland Springs, Texas, 27 dead. 2018, Santa Fe, Texas, 10 dead. 2019, Odessa, Texas, 8 dead. 2019, El Paso, Texas, 23 dead. 2022, Ovalde, Texas, 22 dead. And now just in the last week or so, Cleveland, Texas,

5 dead. Allen, Texas, 9 dead. That is the state of Texas. And those are little children and far too many of those. That's the death toll. And Jonathan, again, this is happening because Greg Abbott does nothing. This is happening because the state legislature does nothing. And they claim that these slaughters have to continue, that little children have to continue to be slaughtered in the name of freedom, almost like some sick, ritualistic, ancient sacrifice of children's blood for their, I almost said something, a word I shouldn't say, for their screwed up view of a radicalized, hyper-individualized freedom that our founders never anticipated, that the Supreme Court of the United States has never interpreted, that the Second Amendment has never said. That is the law of the land. There are states

that have banned military-style weapons. The Supreme Court has been asked to overturn them and has said time and time again, nope, nope, that's okay. That's legal. What they did in Connecticut's legal. What they did in California is legal. That is legal. And yet states like Texas allow the slaughters to continue. Greg Abbott keeps trying to change the subject when again, I'm going to just keep saying it. 90% of Americans want universal background checks. 80% of Americans want red flag laws. The majority of Americans want AR-15s banned. These people are radically, radically out of step with the rest of America. And yet, as you say,

they let the slaughters in Allen, Texas, Uvalde, Texas, El Paso, Texas, Sutherland Springs, Texas, Santa Fe, Midland, Texas, and Dallas, Texas, continue, continue, continue. Joe, you'd be right to use whatever word you want. This is American exceptionalism. This is the only country where this happens routinely, nearly on a weekly basis. These days feels like a daily basis. We have failed when it comes to protecting our children. We have failed our citizens who are afraid now to go anywhere. Church, country music concert, mall, synagogue. It doesn't matter. You are anywhere you are, you are vulnerable, particularly if you live in a state like Texas. And we just ran through the list, and there's been a correlation between the number of shootings and the easing of gun restrictions in that state. It's easier to have a gun. It's easier to carry a gun. Therefore, more people are shooting.

And let's remember, this governor, Governor Abbott, is the same one who a few years ago tweeted that he was embarrassed that Texas had slipped to number two in the country in new gun purchases. And he urged his citizens to pick it up and buy more firearms. And Charlie, just in case people are going, they're going, well, yeah, OK, so these people got shot. Texas is a big state. Why don't we underline the fact again, the number one killer of children in America, and I guarantee you in the state of Texas, guns. This is this is breathtaking. And I have to say that the Reverend and Jonathan have triggered me when we choose the guns over the children. That's a sign of a deep sickness. And Jonathan's point about this is American exceptionalism. We are exceptional in this respect. And, you know, on the question of mental illness, and Joe, you've been raising this issue. Are Americans exceptionally insane?

Are we exceptionally more prone to this kind of violence? Or is there something else going on here? This American carnage, you know, has become absolutely routine. And I think you're right to highlight the policies in Texas. I mean, it's not just the policies, it's also the attitude and the reaction and the kinds of spin that Governor Abbott puts on this, the way that we have created this culture that celebrates the gun, despite the horrific injuries, but also celebrates this sort of crassness, this indifference to violence or this willingness to accept it. And to Elisa's point earlier, look, if this was happening on a regular basis, if Islamic terrorists were killing this many people,

if this many people were dying in plane crashes on a regular basis, this country would mobilize. Politicians would not be saying there's nothing we can do about this. Trust me. I mean, I said it the morning after January the 6th, if it were Islamic terrorists attacking the Capitol, they would have been gunned down in like 10 seconds. It would have been over. If just one of these attacks was Islamic extremism, my God, There would have been such. A reaction, an extreme reaction that, well, we wouldn't have to worry about that happening again for quite some time.

But here, Mika, nothing. They talk about mental health. And by the way, they do, I will challenge Republicans again. OK. Mental health is not the reason these people are dying, by the way, it's guns. But you want to talk about mental health. You think you're going to get away from something? Go ahead. Fundamental health. The United States of America, states like Texas, states like Florida, criminally underfund mental health services. So go ahead. Well, it makes it increase spending on mental health five times, 10 times of what it is right now, because it is so radically underfunded that that that's another crisis we have to talk about on this show all the time. So do that. But also remember, while you're doing that, Americans are going to finally wake up.

Americans are going to demand that you listen to the 90 percent of them who say we want universal background checks and 80 percent who say we want red flag laws passed and the majority who say we want AR-15s banned. That is that is going to happen at some point as children keep getting slaughtered. So you can continue to allow children to be slaughtered or you can do the right thing now and be where most of America is. Yeah. And also the kids who have grown up afraid for their lives, witnessing these things, they're going to run for office and they're going to beat you. Like, do we have to wait that long for the people who are living through this nightmare from the beginning of their lives?

Or finally, they're the ones who are going to step up because you can't. Still ahead on Morning Joe, new polling shows President Biden trailing former President Trump in a 2024 matchup. We're digging into those numbers and what they could mean in the race for the White House. Plus, Donald Trump misses the deadline to testify in the civil rape case against him. But he said he was going to go to New York. Anyone surprised he didn't show up? But he said he was going to go.

He lied? Did he lie? Because he said, I'm going to go. He lied. Did he lie? Because he said, I'm going to go to New York and confront her. Right. We are hearing from the former president in newly released deposition tapes. Those are fascinating. Also this morning, Congressman Pete Aguilar and the House's third ranking Democrat is our guest amid the ongoing fight over the debt ceiling. And this programming note tonight at 8 p.m. Eastern, another edition of Joe Scarborough presents right here on MSNBC. Joe will cover all that is happening right now in Texas, plus his exclusive interview with Democratic Senator John Fetterman on his battle back to work on Capitol Hill after being treated for clinical depression.

You will not want to miss this powerful interview. Also, Joe's conversations with media giant Tyler Perry and award winning showrunner Shonda Rhimes. That's all tonight at 8 p.m. Eastern. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. 35 past the hour, a live look at the White House as the sun has yet to come up over Washington. Two weeks after he officially announced his reelection campaign, polling shows President Joe Biden's approval rating has hit a new low. In the latest Washington Post to ABC News survey, 37 percent of registered voters say they approve of the president's job performance, his lowest figure for that poll since returning to office. But there are also some troubling numbers for Biden's most likely

opponent in the 2024 general election, Donald Trump in the survey. More than half of all voters say Trump should face criminal charges for his alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election, his role in the January 6th insurrection, and for his alleged mishandling of classified documents after leaving the White House. Despite this, the survey shows Trump leading Biden by six points in a 2020 rematch, 45 percent to 39 percent. Well, you know, I'm not good math and I'm going to prove it again, but it seems to me, Charlie Sykes, if 55 percent of Americans think Donald Trump should be indicted

and sent to jail, I understand why Democrats are worried about Joe Biden's numbers. They should be worried that they are low. At the same time, if 55 percent of Americans think he should be indicted and face criminal charges and only 39 don't, maybe that's why he's sitting at 45 percent. There's not a real upside to Donald Trump. So Republicans understand this. It's why they're panicked. The Democratic Party right now, everywhere I go, everybody's also panicked about Joe Biden. So I just wonder, Charlie, everybody keeps saying this looks like the race we're going to have. And I just have to ask right now, is it? Yeah, I'm afraid so. I'm afraid that that that we are stuck with this. And by the way, I think that both parties are right to panic. I think they have reasons to be very, very concerned.

Look, I mean, this poll may be an outlier and it may be early, but this also needs to be a wake up call that this is really possible, that it is possible that Donald Trump could be elected president with all that that means and all of the implications of all of that. It also exposes, I think, Joe and Mika, I think it exposes the hollow men of the Republican Party who have been so reluctant to actually call out Donald Trump's unfitness because they've been basing a lot of their critique on the fact that he's unelectable. Well, that whole argument, you know, that that, you know, Donald Trump can't win, that that's that's kind of being being blown up at the moment. So at some point, if we're going to address the reality of the situation,

Republicans are going to have to talk about why Donald Trump should not be the nominee and should never be put back into the Oval Office. And I think the Democrats need to wake up that simply the craziness and the illegality and the various indictments of Donald Trump are not necessarily automatically going to save us in 2024. No one is coming to save us. This is going to be up to us. I think that people have been waiting for something to come along, whether it's a media or an indictment that's going to save us from all of this. And no, it's it's up to us at this point. It really is. And Charlie, in your latest article in The Atlantic entitled America's Lowest Standard Standard, you really crystallized the situation. You write in part, the twice impeached, defeated former president has been indicted on multiple felony charges and may face more. He is a chronic

liar and a fraudster. He also played a role in fomenting the January 6th insurrection. Trump has called for the suspension of the Constitution and dined with a white supremacist, and he traffics in racist, invective and conspiracy theories. You continue. Hamilton thought he had fireproofed the presidency from Mount Banks and charlatans because we would seek out only the best and the brightest among us. Instead, we have apparently saved our lowest standards for the presidency. After the release of the Access Hollywood tape, the GOP decided that character

did not, after all, matter. Seven years later, neither the indictments for paying for hush money to a porn star nor the accusations of assault and rape are disqualifying for Republican voters. In the 2024 contest contest for the presidency, they hardly even register. And if you look at that deposition tape for the E. Jean Carroll case, he's asked about what he said on the Access Hollywood tape. Well, I mean, let's take a listen. All right. Play for a second and listen to the part where he says maybe it's not a bad thing. Yeah. People like Trump are able to sexually assault women. Listen.

And you say it again. This has become very famous in this video. I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab them by the ****, you can do anything. That's what you said, correct? Well, historically, that's true with stars. It's true with stars that they can grab women by the ****? Well, if you look over the last million years, I guess that's been largely true. Not always, but largely true.

Unfortunately or fortunately. And you consider yourself to be a star? I think you can say that, yeah. Yeah, so he takes what he said with Access Hollywood and at least he says, well, maybe it's a good thing. He says, unfortunately or says, well, maybe it's a good thing. He says, unfortunately, unfortunately, maybe it's a good thing that he can sexually assault women because he's a, quote, star. He said that evangelicals. He said that Republican voters. He said in 2023, maybe it's a good thing that he, Donald Trump,

can sexually assault women, even when they're not expecting it or want it. I just started laughing out of pure disgust. And I looked over at the rev. It was just like, what is he, a caveman saying men have done this for a million years. So why not just keep going forward with it? I mean, I, that showed such an absolute lack of remorse and no growth whatsoever, which I think is kind of par for the course with Donald Trump and what we need to expect embrace brace ourselves for over this campaign cycle. This is why it is very, very complicated moving forward covering this nominee who is now indicted and is seen on a deposition, I mean, along with all the things that Charlie listed in

his piece, and that doesn't cover everything. But this is a man who talks about in his deposition, his type and how E. Jean Carroll was not his type. So therefore, he wouldn't rape her? I'm confused. He confused her for his wife. He confused her for his wife in the pictures. And then in a flash of anger, tells the attorney who is deposing him, you're not my type either. You're a disgrace. I mean, it's just this is your guy. This is the evangelical. This is your guy. This is the Republican Party's choice. And by the way, people are going to look back and you're you know, they look back on Bull Connor and

you know, how did that happen? They're going to look back on taxes and the guns and the gunfire. They're going to look back on Donald Trump. They're going to look back on taxes and the guns and the gunfire. They're going to look back on Donald Trump. They're going to look back on the heinousness and the racism and the white supremacy and everything else. And they're going to look back at the voters and say, now, why did these people allow Bull Connor to continue to be police chief in Birmingham? Trump when he talked about bragged about in 2016 or the tape came out in 2016 and again in 2023 that maybe he had the right to sexually assault and abuse women. And he's a front runner. That said, Rev, 55 percent of Americans think that Donald Trump should be indicted. We're all looking at Joe Biden's low numbers and we should. Democrats should. They're freaked out Donald Trump should be indicted. We're all looking at Joe Biden's low numbers and we should. Democrats should. They're freaked out. They should be freaked out. But Republicans, they got a candidate that's got 55 percent of Americans thinking that he should

be indicted, arrested and sent to jail because of January 6th, because he tried to rig the election and because the classified documents that he refused to return to the United States government. That ain't that ain't holding that's not nobody sitting in the Republican Party at the table holding four aces there either. Now, what is alarming, if not frightening, is that 55 percent of Americans feel that he should be indicted and prosecuted. Yet there's no movement in the Republican Party to really deal with stopping him. And you can't come up with a candidate in the Republican primaries announced or expected to announce that will take him on. So we're going from what you quoted Hamilton saying the best and the brightest will run for president to the slickest and the sickest, because this guy is sick

to say that we go back a million years and this is how it was done. I mean, this is real madness for someone to openly on a deposition. Let's remember that he's under oath, knowing he's being taped. And for him to say this, an hour to even entertain that this man should be the leader of the Western accused him of sexually assaulting her without her permission. And he's saying he has a right to do that as a star, that men have been able to do that for a million years if they were, quote, stars. And so maybe he has the right to do it today. Which is actually confessing by his own words. Yes. Yeah. This is what I do. And this is the way it's been done for a million years. And we're going to let this man using Elisa's analogy,

this caveman back in the Oval Office. I mean, this caveman mentality, not him, a caveman himself. This is madness. And if you allow this madness to go, you will allow military style weapons to go. You will allow all that goes with it because you're dealing with the mentality that we operate in some kind of prehistoric times rather than some civilized gatherings of nations that are governed by laws and principles. To Rev's point, it is it's all connected. And this is someone who is doubling down on the Access Hollywood tape, which is, you know, eight odd years later. Also, of course, he gets a town hall this week on primetime television. But we should mention, Joe Amica, also that Trump deeply flawed. This is why so many Republicans who want to break from Trump are so panicked right now because he leads the

polls within the GOP primary, because they look at the Biden numbers and see a very vulnerable incumbent and think, well, gosh, if we could put anyone else up but Trump, we'd have a better shot at this. I know this one poll suggests that Trump is ahead of Biden, but it is early and it's just one poll and a bit of an outlier. But I will say one Democrat yesterday, a senior Democrat texted me saying they kind of hope this poll might be a little bit of a wake up call for this White House, which feels like there's a fear that they feel like if it's a rematch, this White House is being a little bit overconfident that this is the race that they want. They want Biden versus Trump again. They beat him in 20. We know the arguments that the swing voters, independent voters broke against Trump in 20, probably would again in 24. And I think that's fair. And I think, Joe, you and I have talked

about this Biden Trump rematch. It's advantage Biden, it would seem. But inherently, it is sort of a jump ball. It's a 50-50 nation, more or less. The Electoral College gives Republicans some advantages. And I think there is a sense that particularly if we face as a nation's economic headwinds, that's trouble for Biden. So I think there's a sense here that the White House needs to change its thinking a little bit about this potential rematch. That's what some Democrats are saying anyway. And listen, I think the reason why this poll shot around the way it did yesterday, even though it's a year out, it could be an outlier, is because Jonathan, you and I, I know the Rev has anybody that is around Democrats regularly, Democratic leaders,

they're all scared to death. They really are. And again, I know nobody inside the White House hears this, uh, regularly. We hear it all the time. Democratic leaders are just as scared of Joe Biden, uh, whether that's fair or not. And we've explained a thousand times what we don't think is fair, but that's the reality among Democratic leaders, among the Democratic base, just like it is among Republican leaders and the Republican base that it's Donald Trump. I think that's the most fascinating thing about this poll is that both sides are so weak.

And I say both sides are so weak because, Jonathan, every time Donald Trump says witch hunt, you look at this poll and you know the majority of americans say no no 55 say you need to get arrested and go to jail for what you did in trying to overturn the election 54 say now now not a witch hunt you need to be arrested indicted arrested and sent to jail for what you did in relationship to the January 6th insurrection, 54 percent. And the classified documents case, lying to the feds, obstructing justice, 53 percent say yes. And look at that, 39 percent, only not even four out of 10, Jonathan, not even four out of 10 would tell a pollster that he should not be arrested, should not be indicted, should not go to jail. I mean, this I mean, I'm sorry if you're a Democrat or you're a Republican. Biden's behind

right now in this one poll. This is a very I look at these Trump numbers and I can't tell you about Joe Biden and his future. I can tell you I'm still where I've always been with Donald Trump. He can't win the suburbs of Atlanta. He can't win the suburbs of Philly. He can't win the suburbs of Milwaukee. He can't win the suburbs of Detroit, which means he can't win the White House. So the question is, are the Republicans are going are they going to stay with this guy that the majority of Americans think should be indicted, arrested and sent to jail? And a guy who says this year that he has the right to sexually assault women? Are are they going to try to finally win an election? That's the question. That is the question to this point. The answer seems to be they're sticking with Trump with all of that baggage. He's got one indictment under his belt already, and it sure looks like more could be coming in the months ahead. And let's look,

we're being clear eyed about this. This could be a tough stretch for President Biden. Title 42 expiring this week. You know, we know that there are concerns about the debt ceiling, that meeting at the White House is tomorrow. There are some nerve rattling shakes in the economy. There are people are watching for what might happen to Hunter Biden in the weeks and months ahead. But you could put all that. Those are all legitimate. But none of it compares to this with Donald Trump to be facing at least one more indictment, if not more than one in the months ahead. He is deeply and I many would argue fatally flawed as a general election candidate.

Maybe this helps him now and the Republicans, it's going to hurt him next year. So that's where we are right now. And that's why, though, the poll, the Trump's lead over Biden certainly raised eyebrows, alarmed Democrats. But those numbers there that we just highlighted about the concerns about Trump and his criminal future, that should be just as worrisome, if not more so to Republicans. Well, coming up, new reporting entitled In the Post-Roe Era, Let pregnant patients get sicker by design. That is next on Morning Joe. There is a group of women now suing the state of Texas over its near complete abortion ban.

Among them, one who developed life-threatening sepsis and spent days in the ICU after being told by hospital doctors that although her baby had no chance of survival, she was not sick enough to have an abortion. Her story, along with interviews with Texas doctors who are navigating the state's abortion ban, are highlighted in a new piece in The New Yorker entitled In the Post-Roe Era, Letting Pregnant Patients Get Sicker by Design. Joining us now, the author of that article, contributing writer at The New Yorker, Stefania Taladrid. And in the piece you write in part, Stefania, quote, the Texas doctors I spoke to, like their counterparts in other hospitals across conservative states, described OBGYN units where today workers must

shoulder responsibilities that have little to do with saving the lives of mothers, let alone doing no harm. Instead, as pregnant women get sicker by design, doctors have been weighing the risk of offering treatment that they feel is right for a patient against the risk of legal repercussions that might cost them their livelihoods or even land them in prison. They've been soliciting the opinions of hospital lawyers and ethicists. They've been considering institutional liability and struggling to reinterpret concepts such as due diligence. In short, in a context of fear and bureaucratic anxiety, they have been scrambling, trying to reconcile abortion law language with the daily urgencies of women they're encountering on gurneys in emergency room cubicles. Just how endangered does a sick patient have to be before her doctor can intervene? And how much time can a doctor and her colleagues take in deciding before it's too late for a patient? And let's start right there, Stefania, because when a woman

is enduring sepsis, often the condition can come on really fast. There isn't time for a hospital board and lawyers to meet. And women are now being caught in the middle of this and enduring intense pain, trauma, agony, and often being sterilized because of the position they're left in, something that could have been prevented. Am I wrong? No, absolutely not. And thank you for having me. I mean, as the head of ACOG in Texas mentioned to me, this is a question of minutes, right? You're lucky if you have even hours, not even days, right? And so the decision to intervene, the decision to treat a woman must come fast. And I think it's really helpful to put this into context because we've been warned that the overturning of Roe would have tremendous implications for women around the country,

even before the ruling was announced. You might remember that The Lancet, the medical journal, issued an editorial saying women will die, right? And ever since, what we've seen is that in the country that is already one of the richest nations with the highest rates of maternal death, the impact is absolutely clear, right? And now we have doctors who, for quite some time, I think, were reluctant to talk about what they were seeing in Texas and elsewhere, come out and say, this is unquestionable, you know, and it's resulting in more harm to the patients that we're treating.

This story is just god awful. There's no real way to put it otherwise. What kind of I mean, aside from laws that actually empower doctors to treat patients as they see medically reasonable. And in their opinion, I mean, I guess there's, you know, this is just a legal issue and we can raise hell all we want about it. But at the end of the day, the law is the law. And so women are just going to be consigned to suffer. Right. And what the Center for Reproductive Rights case that you mentioned is asking for is more clarity. Right. I mean, Texas, like many other states where abortion is now illegal, has several abortion bans. Right. It has SB8, which went into effect in 2021.

It has a trigger law and a pre-reel ban in effect. And each of those bans has its own exceptions. So you can just imagine just how confusing it is for doctors who are treating patients with life-threatening conditions to figure out, well, which law am I supposed to abide by? And what exception am I supposed to take into account here, right? I mean, it's just absolutely confusing to them. All right. Contributing writer at The New Yorker, Stefania Taladrid, thank you so much for this incredible piece that you wrote. Yeah, just incredible. And Mika, this is exactly what we were talking about over Easter.

Yeah. Everybody came around. It's scary to get pregnant now for women. People who are pro-life their entire lives. We're talking about stories like this. We're talking about how women are no longer safe. No. Getting pregnant. And I actually have know somebody that his wife and he moved out of a red state to a blue state. And they're actually thinking about having a child and said that they're going to have to stay in the blue state in lesser complications. And if there are complications, they don't want to be in the position that these women are in.

People are picking colleges as it pertains to these laws. Republicans are. This is not some Democratic thing. Again, at EASER, we heard from Republicans who all had a different story like this, talking about how insane these laws are. It is. Charlie, final thoughts before you go today. You know, it's interesting listening to that conversation in the 1990s.

Remember that book, The Big Sort, talked about how we were sorting ourselves out geographically by politics. I think that we may be in the midst of a new big sort, a sort of a cold civil war where people are moving with their feet to states where they feel safe, where they feel that they're going to be respected. So all of these policies are going to have very dramatic implications, both for, say, higher education, but also for the economy. And, of course, that's one of the backgrounds of some of the things that are happening in both Texas and in Florida. But it's going to be interesting looking back on this a couple of decades from now to see all of the life choices that are being made driven by these public policies. All right, Charlie Sykes, thank you very much for being on this morning. Thanks, Charlie. A few minutes before the top of the hour, our top story this hour, another mass shooting has claimed the lives of eight people. This happened at a shopping mall outside Dallas, Texas.

It's now one of more than 200 mass shootings in the U.S. this year. NBC News correspondent Priscilla Thompson has the latest. Gunshots shattering the peace of a Saturday afternoon shopping trip. We need an ambulance. Yeah, we need to get these people to the ambulance. shopping trip. Eight people were killed and seven more injured, including children, police say, after a gunman opened fire at this sprawling outlet mall in Allen, Texas, just north of Dallas. The victim's identity is not yet revealed. Got one more white or Hispanic male subject wearing a black tactical garb armed with an AR. He's got some white lettering on the vest that says police or security. Dash cam video shows the moment the alleged shooter got out of his car and began firing.

The suspect was killed by an officer who police say was already on scene for an unrelated call. He heard gunshots, went to the gunshots, engaged the suspect and neutralized the suspect. Law enforcement officials say the shooter was 33-year-old Mauricio Garcia, who had interacted with neo-Nazi and white supremacist content online. Officials searching the home of the alleged shooter as neighbors watched in disbelief. It's kind of quiet, kind of, you know, wore a little hoodie, just walk up and down the block, didn't say to himself, just always alone. He went to high school with some of the neighbors and they just said he was just always very quiet. This scene, one that is all too familiar. Americans in fear, forced to run,

hide, and pray. We ran to the back, barricaded it with some concrete bricks, and then right then on the security camera, thank God we went in the back at that time. We saw him walk right by, masked up, fake police outfit on. Survivors returned to the scene to collect their vehicles, many still in shock. We heard all these shots started and she had just been out there and if she hadn't come in the store she was probably on the edge of the... As another grief-stricken community gathers to mourn and to heal.