Morning Joe - Morning Joe 6/26/23

Episode Date: June 26, 2023

The Morning Joe panel discusses the latest in U.S. and world news, politics, sports and culture.

This is just the latest chapter in a book of failure that Putin has written for himself and for Russia. Economically, militarily, its standing in the world, all of those things have plummeted. Now, with trouble brewing from within, this, as I said, just adds more questions that he has to find answers for. Confusion and uncertainty in Russia this morning after a failed revolt by the head of the Wagner mercenary group. It was the most significant challenge to Vladimir Putin's authority in decades. We'll go over what exactly happened and what it could mean for Putin's leadership, as well as the war in Ukraine. Plus, Republicans continue to veer toward an electoral cliff backing former President Trump despite his mounting legal challenges, even as many voters

are deeply disturbed by his multiple indictments. Perhaps that's why President Biden is leading Trump in a 2024 matchup. And a year after the Supreme Court stripped away abortion rights. The high court's approval rating is in the basement at just 31 percent. We're breaking down the new poll numbers just ahead. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Monday, June 26. Joe is off this morning. We begin with this weekend's developing news out of Russia, where the head of the mercenary group, Wagner, launched the most direct challenge to Vladimir Putin's grip on power in his 19 years as president. It started on Friday when Yevgeny Progozin, the leader of a private army, posted a video to social media. In it, he suggests the Russian invasion of Ukraine was launched under false pretenses

before accusing the Russian military leaders of bombing his own soldiers. Prigozhin vowed to retaliate and his forces began their movement east soon after. By early Saturday morning, Prigoosin's Wagner Group had claimed control of a military command center in southern Russia. Video shows civilians filming soldiers and tanks on the streets of the Russian city as other Wagner forces continued their push north toward Moscow. It came as Russian President Vladimir Putin made a televised address calling Prigozhin's armed mutiny treason and threatening to punish anyone who turned against the Russian military. seemed to end with a Belarusian state media announcing that its president, Alexander Lukashenko, a close ally of Putin, had mediated an agreement where Prokhorin agreed to stop his army's advance north and turn around. In exchange, Prokhorin would be exiled to Belarus? A lot of questions here about the stability of Russia and global

stability as well. With us, we have the host of Way Too Early, White House bureau chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, former aide to the George W. Bush State Department, Elise Jordan, president of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass, columnist and associate editor for The Washington Post. David Ignatius is with us. And former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO, retired four-star Navy Admiral James Tavridis is here. He is chief international analyst for NBC News. So, Richard, let's start with you and get us to the very latest from what we understand so far with this, where is Prigozhin right now? Where is Putin right now? And what do you make of this deal they have struck? Well, Mika, what we don't know is at

least as large as what we do know. We've not seen the details of the deal. So it's a little bit hard to know if it ever does see the light of day exactly who looks weak or who seems to have capitulated more. Prigozhin supposedly, apparently in Belarus, though I haven't the light of day, exactly who looks weaker, who seems to have capitulated more? Progozhin, supposedly, apparently, in Belarus, though I haven't seen pictures of him there, may still be in Russia. The question is, you know, what's his political future? Could he, if you will, rally for another day? I don't rule that out. I thought, you know, the most interesting thing he said was his criticism of the war in Ukraine, essentially calling it a totally misguided war of choice based upon false

pretenses. And one of the things to watch for is whether that resonates, whether that picks up any momentum. Putin's obviously, as everyone says, weaker, but there's weaker and there's weaker. What does that mean? Weaken people can be dangerous. What might he do in Ukraine? A weaker Russia raises questions with control over, for example, nuclear weapons. And he's weaker, but he's not out. There's lots of things he could do, I think, to revive in terms of, for example, suddenly the Russian government could become very generous towards the Russian people, or he could crack down against other would-be warlords who might take him on. So I think it's simply premature to be writing his political obituary at this point. At the same time, he has tapped into a narrative about the war that certainly was percolating in Russia.

David Ignatius, you call him in the Washington Post, entitled President Vladimir Putin, looked into the abyss on Saturday and blinked. And David writes in part, quote, After vowing revenge for what he called an armed mutiny, Putin settled for a compromise. The speed with which Putin backed down suggests that his sense of vulnerability might be higher than analysts believed. Putin might have saved his regime Saturday, but this day will be remembered as part of the unraveling of Russia as a great power, which will be Putin's true legacy. What's notable about this mad 24 hours is that Putin managed to defuse the crisis without any big military confrontation. He has been humbled by a headstrong crony, to be sure, but he's still in control. It was a close shave, not a decapitation.

What comes next surely is more trouble for Putin in Ukraine. Prigozhin told the truth flat out in the days before his march on Moscow. Ukraine didn't threaten Russia as Russia's invasion was unnecessary, a mistake of epic proportions. Even Putin, the Iceman, can't freeze the burning truth of his Ukraine disaster. And David, I wonder what this means for the war in Ukraine, how the Ukrainians are reacting. Can they capitalize on this in any way? So this is, as Secretary Blinken said yesterday, a book of failure. It's a direct challenge, again, quoting Blinken, to Putin's authority and his rule. What that means for Ukraine right now is hard to predict, but it can't be anything good for Russia.

Russia's command and control structure has been rocked. A rebellion by the militia leader who was really the principal fighting force in Bakhmut, the biggest fight of the last year, has been an open revolt. Putin was forced into the compromise, as I said, because the situation on Saturday was so uncertain. Wagner forces, Pogosian's followers were marching on Moscow. And I'm told that the army troops along the way were neither supporting nor hindering him. They were just watching, watching this army of rebels move toward Moscow. So Putin, I think, not knowing how he was going to stop this crisis, decided to fuse it, defuse it, using his friend, President Lukashenko of Belarus. One point to note that's important

today is that leading Russian journals are reporting that the investigation of Prigozhin continues. Supposedly, this was a deal where charges would be dropped against Prigozhin, and he and his militia soldiers would be free to disperse, to disband. Today's news suggests something different, a continuing vendetta by Putin against this person who dared to challenge him. I would not be wanting to write a life insurance policy on Yevgeny Pogosin today, wherever he is, whether he's in Belarus or still in Rostov-on-Don in the South. We truly don't know. But again, I think that the fundamental point for Ukraine and the world is that Putin has

been rocked. Putin had to make this compromise because he simply didn't know what was coming next for Putin. You know, the control freak, the ultimate autocrat. That was a most uncomfortable, intolerable situation. And he made a deal to get out of it. I think the quick deal, Admiral Stavridis, is so interesting. I mean, how powerful does Putin look if he's cutting a deal at the last minute?

We don't know where either of them are, both leaders, and that's the big question. Also, will Belarus really take Prokofiev in? Is he going to make it out alive? What about this shaky deal? Also, what's the reaction from the Russian population? We have to be looking at that. Also, geopolitical reaction, including countries like China. Pick one, Admiral Stavridis. Well, let's start with Napoleon. You know, when you're five feet, five inches tall and a military guy, you love to quote Napoleon. So I'm going to do so. Napoleon said, never interrupt your enemy when he's making a serious mistake.

That's what we're seeing right here. So it's upside for Ukraine. It's downside for Russia. And, you know, Putin, dictator 101 would tell you when you are challenged like that and you put on your undertaker suit and do the speech that says in five minutes, I'm going to crush this rebellion. And then you give the guy a pass to go to Belarus, of all places. I I'm kind of with David Ignatius on this one. If I were Progozhin, I wouldn't be standing near any open windows on high floors anytime soon, because a lot of these oligarchs end up flying out of them. He could be doing that flight without

wings pretty soon, I would say. So geopolitically, as you look around, as both David and Richard said, yeah, Putin is taking some hits here. I think they're actually quite serious. You see some tepid support from China. You see some conciliatory, friendly statements coming out of Iran. But geopolitically, your cachet is power and your absolute control. And certainly Putin has taken some hits there. I'll conclude with this. As you look across the firing line at Ukraine and how this looks from Kiev, it really is high fives. It's the opportunity cost here of Russian forces. It's the morale that is shaken from top to bottom in this military force. It's the intelligence opportunities. You see a lot, you hear a lot in moments of crisis like this as people get careless in their communications and

pull out that personal cell phone. So putting it all together, great day in Kiev, terrible day in Moscow. Friends of Russia are feeling diminished today, I would say. Another thing to be watching, Jonathan Lemire, Prokosin has really tapped into a narrative about the war in Ukraine among the Russian people. There already was concern. Russian mothers worried about their son. These fighters fighting along prisoners, the elite and how their reactions that are reacting to this. I wonder, obviously, the White House hands off, not going to get in the middle of this. But

how is the White House gaming this out? Yeah, well, to the admiral's point, U.S. intelligence had picked up in recent weeks that the the growing dissatisfaction, well, to the Admiral's point, U.S. intelligence had picked up in recent weeks that the growing dissatisfaction, stress, tension between the Wagner Group and the Russian Ministry of Defense. That said, the events of the last weekend certainly caught them by surprise, too, just how fast everything happened. Officials kept their heads down. They were communicated to our European allies, hey, don't say anything. Don't spike the football. Let this just play out. We need to see where this goes. They're still, of course, doing after-event assessments now, but they do believe that this is certainly bad for Putin and therefore good for the Ukrainian war effort, that they

think there's a moment here. The Kyiv counter-offensive has been a little slow to start. There's a chance with Russia's just now so distracted and infighting, and we don't know what happens to Prokhorin next. This might be a chance for them to make some real progress. We will see in the days ahead. So at least, Jordan, I'm reminded of that old Russian saying, never give your chef a private army, because that got real bad for Vladimir Putin over the last couple of days. But it comes, the timing of this comes, it's so beneficial, it seems to me, for Kiev, not just because of the counteroffensive. But there are starting to be a little bit of wobbles in Washington among Republicans, as well as some foreign capitals about just how much longer can we support Ukraine to this level? Not that they're going to cut

funding entirely, but as this war looks like it could drag on for years, a sense that with our own economy is shaky, more in Europe than here, what can we do? How much longer can we do this? With that NATO summit coming and with suddenly Russia looking so chaotic? This might be exactly what those allies need to say. You know what? We're going to double down and keep it going. Well, and the Ukrainians are armed. They're prepared. This new offensive about to launch are already ongoing. And I just want to ask Admiral Stavridis, how much of a ground advantage does this give Ukraine? Is Putin going to have to move resources back to Russia, back to the motherland from Ukraine and give an opening there,

especially when the Ukrainians are probably as well armed as they've ever been in this fight? It's the right tactical question to be asking. And the short answer is we don't know yet. And nobody does. And frankly, we all ought to be quite humble with our predictive powers at this point. got units you can really depend on. He's looking more at elite forces, his Air Force in particular. He still is in control of that, his naval forces. He's going to want to consolidate control and above all of the intelligence services, the people that are in close around him. Those are not the units that are fighting tooth and nail on the front lines in Ukraine. So, Elise, I wish I could say, yeah, this Game of Thrones moment is going to unfold and there's going to be a civil war in Russia. Doesn't look like it at the moment. If it does, then I think the entire Russian war effort will collapse because Putin would need to really start pulling troops.

Bottom line, I don't see a big tactical change as a result of this. This will play out as a series of strategic challenges for the Kremlin in the weeks and months ahead. Richard Haass has a new piece on Substack entitled All Politica is Local. And Richard, you write in part, quote, Yes, the events came as a surprise. But there is also the argument they or something like them were inevitable. Putin rules with little legitimacy. He has deinstitutionalized Russia and its government. There are no checks, no balances. Putin is something of a warlord, all of which makes it unsurprising that another warlord would ask why him and not me and challenge him. More surprising is how Putin allowed an alternative to emerge and what this says about his rule.

The consensus among most Russia experts is that Prokofiev's challenge has significantly weakened Putin. Maybe. But autocrats tend to stay in power if they keep their nerve and maintain the loyalty of the military and security services. So far, at least, this appears to be the case. Moscow 2023 is not as yet Tehran 1979. Maybe not, Richard, but this is in the middle of a hot war with Ukraine that has dragged out far longer than anybody expected. This insurrection, he lost control of two cities. This is a major humiliation to Vladimir Putin. Look, no argument. And certainly it shatters the Putin argument that time was on his side. That was a big argument given your previous conversation in terms of

the U.S. and Europe. And I think it makes it harder to argue that. The other is, I'm struck, Putin in his statements the other morning, Mika, talked about 1917 and he tried to frame it there. When I look at all this, you know, what I think of is something much more recent, which is the Soviets in Afghanistan. They went in there, it was a fiasco, and that's what ultimately contributed to the dissolution of the Soviet Union. What's so ironic and interesting here, not to mention tragic for Ukraine, is Putin went into Ukraine thinking it would be a cakewalk, thinking it would actually bolster his position at home and internationally. And it's turned out anything, anything but. And again, Prigoshin's critique of the war,

I thought was really, really interesting. And we'll see whether it picks up support in the military who are essentially dying for this adventure, whether it picks up support in the military who are essentially dying for this adventure, whether it picks up support at home because there's all sorts of loss of life and economically it's been costly. So again, to me, what's really interesting going forward is whether at some point Putin, potentially with Chinese push, decides it's time to cut his losses and whether there's just maybe a positive thing here, put aside the question of whether Putin survives politically, also ask the question what it means for Ukraine. Might this create a circumstance where Putin defines success down?

Because at the end of the day, let's be blunt, Putin cares much more about his own position at home than he does about Ukraine. Ukraine was a means to an end, to strengthen his position at home than he does about Ukraine. Ukraine was a means to an end to strengthen his position at home. But ultimately, what he cares most about is Putin in Russia. And if he now decides that cutting his losses or defining success down in Ukraine serves his political and personal interests at home, then I think this could potentially open up a new chapter. And if Putin were to do that, he's got some scapegoats he can point to now. Blame Prokosian, blame the ministry of defense. They led us astray, managed down victory and then get out. That's possible. But David Ignatius, let's talk a little bit about the Wagner group right now, which, look, they played a bit of a key role here. And certainly the Battle of Bakhmut,

other places, they were certainly led to some of the little bit of Russian success that they've had in this campaign. But they're also the tip of the spear in places like Africa. Like this is a significant entity. Its future is very much in doubt. There's some chatter on Wagner Telegram channel. Some of those members were really upset that they turned around and didn't keep going on to Moscow. What's your best guess from the people that you've talked to? Where do they think Wagner goes from here? Not just Prokofiev, but this military force that really had some real impact across the globe. I think that's one of the key questions is whether Wagner will be, can be integrated into regular Russian forces, whether the army or, as in their overseas deployments, some part of the

Spetsnaz special forces. There's no question that Wagner has been the toughest front line in Bakhmut. That was part of what made Prigozhin so furious. We're doing the fighting. We're doing the dying. You guys, he would be referring typically to the minister of defense, Shoigu, you guys are sitting in Moscow, you know, on your fat sofas while we're dying. You're not giving us enough ammunition. You're not paying us enough. On and on, month after month,

you were getting this from Prigozhin. And it's true, his people were on the front lines. What's happening right now in Rostov-on-Don, which is where Prigozhin's militia had gone when he captured the city? Are they dispersing quietly? Where are they dispersing to? Do they go back to their hometowns? Do they reform their units? Is there an attempt made to draw them into the Russian army? Those are the questions that I'm going to be following in particular. Overseas,

these were largely, you know, financial deals. Wagner militias were employed in Africa because they stood to gain substantial wealth, mineral wealth, other special deals that kept them there. Are those going to be renegotiated? Make a final point about Putin. When somebody's authority has been damaged in the way that Putin's has, either they retract, recognizing that they've got to govern more carefully, or more often, frankly, they lash out to show, I'm still here. I can still wreak enormous destruction. So I think the concern for Kiev is that in coming days, yes, they have an opportunity with a weakened Putin, but they also have a significant new threat. This is a cornered rattlesnake. This is somebody who

could strike very violently at Ukraine. So I think, again, to follow up Admiral Stavridis, making precise predictions about how this will go next is very tricky because there's so many different cross currents. I want to tap into a part of what you said there, David, with Admiral Admiral Stavridis, the challenge to Putin. I'm curious what you're watching for within his own military while he's enduring humiliation on the world stage. Humiliation that he has never experienced in his 19 years ruling. Can we truly expect the Wagner military forces to integrate with the Russian forces? And what are the Russian forces thinking at this point? What's the mood of the Russian army?

Are there potential problems brewing there? The things I'm watching, number one is where does Progozhin land? You know, if first prize was to conquer Russia and march to Moscow and second prize is you go live in Belarus, not a really good deal. I'm kind of watching what happens with him, because here's something I learned watching Game of Thrones. If you go for the king, you better kill the king. So watch for Yevgeny's head, what pillow it's sleeping on or what pike it ends up on outside a city gate somewhere. Number two, watch Shogun, the minister of defense. We've mentioned him a couple of times. I've met him on several occasions.

He's not an impressive figure in any dimension. He could be part of the collateral damage here. I think that would be an indicator. And number three, as we've been talking about, watch for Putin's next tactical set of moves. And final thought here, the big game, the really big game are 6,000 nuclear weapons all over Russia. I assure you the Pentagon, the Supreme NATO headquarters, the White House, everybody is asking not where are the carriers? That's what presidents used to ask. These days, they may be asking where are the nukes who's got access to them?

So as David said a moment ago, these are murky waters ahead of us. Really precarious. Retired four-star Navy Admiral James Tafridis, thank you very much. We'll be following this throughout the morning. And still ahead on Morning Joe, new reporting on what tipped the scale for prosecutors in the decision to pursue the classified documents case against Donald Trump. We'll have the latest on Trump's mounting legal troubles and its impact on his White House campaign as new polling shows the former president is building on his lead over the GOP field, despite his recent indictments.

And Democrats warn of a very real threat of Trump winning in 2024. Plus, Republican primary contender Chris Christie gets booed for criticizing the former president. We'll show you his response to the conservative crowd. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. Half past the hour. Welcome back. Christian conservatives will have a big role in the 2024 election, and many are still backing Donald Trump. Fellow 2024 candidate and former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie was booed as he spoke at the Conservative Faith and Freedom Conference on Friday. Take a look at how the audience reacted when he began criticizing former President Trump. He's let us down. He has let us down because he's unwilling. He's unwilling to take responsibility for any of the mistakes

that were made, any of the faults that he has, and any of the things that he's done. And that is not leadership, everybody. That is a failure of leadership. And I, you can boo all you want. But here's the thing. Our faith teaches us that people have to take responsibility for what they do. People have to stand up and take accountability for what they do. Chris Christie's campaign told NBC News the former governor wanted Christians to see how their support of Trump does not line up with their faith. Joining us now, former chairman of the Republican National Committee, Michael Steele, and NBC News correspondent Vaughn Hilliard.

Michael Steele, I'll read from the Faith and Freedom Coalition mission statement. We believe the greatness of America lies not in the federal government, but in the character of our people. Chris Christie was trying to tell them the truth about Donald Trump. And these members of the Faith and Freedom Coalition were not having it. Yeah, it's amazing when your politics clashes into your rhetoric and your faith, especially your rhetoric about your faith. And I thought Chris Christie handled that expertly. He held up the mirror, which a number of us have been doing for a long time now. And that is trying to reflect back to them exactly what they look like and what they sound like and how it is incongruent with their stated values, their stated principles, their stated goals. And the fact and what's important to note about that was when he told them you can do all you want.

It's not going to change what you already know. It's not going to change that this is in contradiction with who you say with what and who you say you are. And what happened? They applauded him. They applauded. And there were a couple of whoops there. They were in agreement with that. And that is the inherent conflict inside the Republican Party and has been since those failed candidates in 2016 were unable to lock on that moment like that and say, hey, I get this new thing. It's exciting and it's different and it's cool and it's dangerous and it's wild, but it's dangerous. All right. It's not good. It's not who we are.

And I thought he did a very good job in sort of holding that mirror up, Mika, and letting them see exactly who they were. So we have some new NBC polling to get to. Von Hilliard, let's first, though, talk about your reporting on Democrats really concerned about 2024 and Trump. This reporting stemmed from a lot of private conversations of Democrats who are concerned heading into November of 2024, not with necessarily their side of the ticket, to be clear, but also an understanding of what Donald Trump and what I'm kind of referring to as the potent minority brings here. And that is where this new NBC polling makes it very clear just what that support for Donald Trump could

look like in a general election. I had conversations with Mandela Barnes, who narrowly lost his Wisconsin Senate race last year to Ron Johnson, a close ally of Donald Trump. I talked to Tim Ryan, who lost by a decent margin in Ohio Senate race to Trump ally J.D. Vance. There are realities in these battleground states that in 2020, Donald Trump turned out a record number of votes on behalf of Republican nominee in each of the battleground states more than any Republican nominee ever. And that is where these conversations are heading. If you look at some of these new numbers from NBC polling,

this is where kind of that begins to open up that conversation. Yeah. Let's get to those numbers right now. And despite facing federal charges, that new polling shows that Donald Trump is expanding his lead in the 2024 Republican primary. In the latest NBC News survey, Trump is the top choice of 51 percent of GOP voters. That's up from 46 percent in April. In second place, with 22 percent, is Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, whose support has fallen by nine points since the last poll, which was taken before he officially entered the race. Although Trump remains popular among Republicans, just 34% of all registered voters view him positively, while 56% view him negatively. 55% also say the recent charges against Trump give them major or moderate concerns about the former president. As for his most likely 2024 general election opponent,

incumbent President Joe Biden, 43% approve of the job he is doing in office, while 53% disapprove. That's essentially unchanged from April. And in a hypothetical 2024 matchup between Biden and Trump, the current president leads the former president 49 percent to 45 percent. That's within the polls margin of error. So there you go, Vaughn. This is it's bad headline after bad headline after bad headline for Trump. Yet general election is Biden up just barely. I think there's always for any incumbent president, the economy looms as an issue. They've been getting good news on that lately, and we're going to have a week's worth of events from President Biden talking about the economy this week. But that poll really crystallizes this dynamic, right, that

Trump is only increasing his grip on the Republican Party, but for them, a lot of warning signs for next year. Exactly. And that is where that number, 49% for Joe Biden, 45% for Donald Trump. This is a national poll. You know what the NBC News poll the final week before the 2020 election was? Joe Biden over Donald Trump by 10 percentage points. This is plurality voting. And if we have potentially third party candidates from Cornel West to no labels, you don't know where the economy is heading. And that is where in some of those numbers, yes, when you're looking at the approval ratings for Donald Trump, they're not great. But when you have only 45 percent of the country saying that the classified documents indictment is either of minor concern or of no concern at all, that is a glimpse into what Donald Trump has to work off of here. You were talking about a guy

that in which country, in which 35% of the country has a negative feeling towards the FBI here. For Donald Trump here, this is an opportunity to essentially make the case to allies, other Republican elected officials that, look, Americans, at least the Republican Party, are not turning against me despite all of this here. And at least they have a foundation to work off, because if you get 43, 44 percent in a November election, that could be enough next November to win it. I want to go to my friend Michael Steele now, the former RNC chair who knows Republican politics backwards and forwards. So in 2016, there was still a little bit of delusional thinking that at some point, oh, Donald Trump was going to go away. I think that now by this stage in the game,

people aren't as delusional, but I'm surprised that people were surprised that Donald Trump had such strength in this NBC poll, because it's what so many people have been saying for a while now, if you're really watching the Republican electorate. So what would it take in your estimation for Donald Trump not to be the 2024 nominee? An act of God? I don't know. Think about it.

This man is, I mean, 37 indictment, 37 count indictment. And its numbers go up. So, yeah, this is baking itself in in a way that I just don't see any of these candidates that are running against him in this primary, not just chipping away at least, but actually gaining enough sufficient ground to become a credible number two, to narrow the race to just two people that, you know, would excite and bring into the mix those Republican voters who are about 60 percent of whom do not support or do not vote in primaries, Republican primaries. That's a big number. And there are lanes there that can be created for that. But I just don't see where that where that comes down at this point. Donald Trump is one of these political figures once in a lifetime. Unfortunately for us, it's our lifetime that has this kind of hold on

a political party that, by the way, he could give two rats patooties about. This is just like getting from going from one vehicle to the next. It's a better driving political car for him, that he can manipulate the gears seamlessly, easily. And it's exampled in the polling that Vaughn is sharing with us, that this is the kind of hold he has. So, yeah, who takes him out? I think even God Almighty is saying, well, we may need to have a meeting on that, you know? Well, Michael, you know what that is, though. Doing better, your conspiracy theories sticking, doing better as indictments pile up. I mean, some would call that a cult. Some would call that fascist tendencies.

Yeah, I know. He plays to that extraordinarily well. And and again, you know, how much of that is true belief in true intent by Donald Trump? You know, he's a transactional guy. What do I need in the transaction to make it work for me. Right. But the other side of it is people believe that they latch on to it and it picks, you know, a side for them that they're much more inclined towards. And so that's how he locks it in. And it's an amazing we're going to be studying this this phenomenon for a long time to better understand how this country, in all that we profess, can withstand this in the future. Because right now, at 49, 45, and yeah, you can say what you want about Joe Biden's age. You can say all you want about Democrats. This is less about them and a lot more about a country that's inclined towards

some of the things Donald Trump is putting out there. David Ignatius, as Biden is navigating the threat of Trump, some would call that navigating the threat of fascism. This is while a strongman in Russia, Vladimir Putin, has been tweaked, challenged, poked, humiliated with an insurrection. What's your biggest worry about global stability as we move toward 2024? The thing I worry about most is that other countries in the world will begin to hedge against the possibility that Donald Trump really could take the Republican nomination and indeed win the presidency. They've been holding off. They've been surprised by the strength of Biden's policies, if not his political numbers. And so there's been a reluctance to move in that direction. But I think you could begin to see some of it. I'm sure if you're Vladimir Putin, you're just counting the

days until our 2024 election, praying that Donald Trump will somehow rescue from this mess. I think this is a national character test. There's no other way for me to put it. As long as Republicans tolerate a person who has done the things that Trump is accused of having done, incredible indictments, as long as they don't call him out, allow him to lead the party, this is where we are. In the politics of grievance, which is what Trump's game is. Every attack that's made on you only adds to your luster, you know, for the aggrieved. That's why you like Trump, because they're they're down on him. Well, that's such an immature response to politics.

And somehow the Republican Party has to get over it. If it doesn't, we're in trouble as a country flat out. David Ignatius, thank you very much. And NBC's Vaughn Hilliard, thank you as well for your reporting this morning. And coming up, new questions about how Donald Trump is paying for his growing personal legal bills as he dips into presidential campaign funds to cover the defense fees. Meanwhile, Trump is promising to contribute to a legal fund for January 6th defendants. We'll show you his comments heralding those charged in the Capitol attack. Morning Joe will be right back. Beautiful shot of Reagan National Airport.

Boy, there was a ground stop last night, which really confused travel for a lot of people. Donald Trump is using some of the funds raised for his presidential campaign to pay for his personal legal fees. When the former president launched his campaign in November, one penny for every dollar raised online went to the PAC, Save America, which helps cover legal expenses. Now, the New York Times reports online disclosures show 10 percent of donations going to the PAC. That's a little bit different. That change happened sometime in February or March. According to the Times, at least $1.5 million may have been diverted to Save America. The group has been paying bills related to various Trump investigations since last year. Elise Jordan, your thoughts.

And by the way, they're going to need more money if there are more indictments. I mean, Mika, I found this to be the least surprising storyline. Obviously, Donald Trump is not going to pay for anything that he doesn't have to pay for and figure it out a way to get the cash, you know, to fund his legal troubles.

I'm surprised he didn't even do it earlier. And you just remember at the end of 2020 campaign when there was something that set up old people to continue to make a recurring donation, and it was scamming a lot of old people. I mean, this is just classic Donald Trump. Anytime you're contributing to him, you basically should just know that you're making a direct in-kind contribution to whatever Donald Trump wants to do with your money. And the thing that might be most troubling is that Trump supporters would love that. Former President Trump has promised to make a contribution to the legal fund supporting the rioters charged in the January 6th attack on the Capitol.

Trump made the pledge at a fundraiser on behalf of those defendants, which was hosted at his Bedminster, New Jersey, golf club by the Patriot Freedom Project, a group founded by family members of those charged. Trump's speech was filled with misinformation and conspiracy theories about the insurrection. Jonathan Lemire, your thoughts? I mean, at this point, you think it can't get more twisted, but this is pretty twisted. Yeah, the bottom just keeps getting lower. Why not? I mean, he's called January 6th a beautiful day. He has promised to pardon most of the January 6th rioters. He has now suggested he'll make a contribution to the Legal Defense Fund. And of course, let's not forget, he has appeared with a January 6th choir convict because that's

Donald Trump right now, Richard Haass. Wow, convict choir. A convict choir, which we should never lose sight of. We should bring it up at least once a week. This is where we are right now with January 6th. And it's not just Trump, though. Some of the other Republicans are saying they do the same thing. Not the Contra-History Legal Defense Fund, but DeSantis has said he might pardon some of them.

Others have as well. Others have said not. Pence said he probably wouldn't. Nikki Haley said she probably wouldn't either. But just show us if January 6th continues to be normalized, like what could that mean for that 2024 election? That's a worrisome trend. Just one side thing before I answer that. The idea that Donald Trump would contribute to the legal defense fund. I'm not a lawyer, but these are people who might be called on to testify against him. We still haven't had the indictments dealing with January 6th. So he would potentially be paying money to people who could be called upon

by the Justice Department to testify against him. The only flaw with that, Richard, is that we're actually assuming that Donald Trump's going to give away any of his own money. Yes, exactly. Fair enough. Fair enough. Look, the idea of somehow normalizing or regularizing journalism, that to me is the single scariest thing. Because that, what is that? That is the use of violence for political purposes by non-state actors. That happens to be the textbook definition of terrorism. Look, I spent three years as the U.S. envoy to Northern Ireland. Before that, you had three decades of the troubles.

What were the troubles? Sporadic, decentralized political violence by all these groups, militias, whatever you want to call them, provisional IRA, loyalist groups, and so forth. What scares me, Jonathan, if January 6th ever gets normalized in this country, we could have the American version of the troubles, where we could have assassinations. We could have political rallies disrupted by people going into them, beating up people on the other side. What January 6th should teach us is it can happen here. We are not somehow so exceptional, so different. Plus, we're a country awash in guns. It's also very easy to go into any hardware store and buy the ingredients

of explosives. So we shouldn't fool ourselves. The fact that the Republican Party and others are not prepared to delegitimize this, every religious leader, every religious leader on Friday, Saturday, Sundays ought to be denouncing this sort of thing. There can be no space in American democracy for this sort of thing, or there won't be American democracy. Now, I see a real challenge here, Michael Steele. I mean, you saw Chris Christie getting booed, trying to tell Christians the truth about accountability, about the difference between right and wrong. And they were not having it to an extent when it comes to Donald Trump. And this now paying for the legal defense of J6 protesters, insurrectionists, that's a complete distortion of not just Christian values, American values. It is. But I think to Richard's point, and it's

an important one, Donald Trump ain't putting any money out there for nobody. Remember, this is the same guy who told people, y'all go out and do all these bad things and don't worry, I'll pay your legal fees. Right. I mean, he's not paying his own legal fees. You're paying his legal fees. We just talked about that. He's skimming 10 percent of every dollar you send him to pay his legal fees. He's not paying him. So what the hell makes you think he's going to pay yours? What makes you think he's going to pay for your legal defense? But this, they don't care. And that goes back to the point that was

making the last segment. This is less about where the politics is and a lot more about where the American people see themselves, ourselves and how we looked at our responsibilities as a country, not just to our friends and allies around the globe, but most especially the neighbor around the corner. And when we see them as others, Mika, that that begins to strip away that humanity, that thing that would in the past have us look at January 6th aghast, outraged and condemn any politician who would suggest otherwise condemn any politician or particularly any party that would advocate letting those people off. That's we're beyond that now. Now we're seeing the embrace of it in a way that we should be really concerned about to Richard's point. And that's what I'm focused on. I know Donald Trump won't pay anybody's legal bills, but he will get other people to and he will normalize supporting people who attacked our democratic process. And that is more Trump like fascist like behavior that is taking hold in the mindset of his base, which is still very much there.

Richard Haass, thank you very much for being on this morning.