Morning Joe - Morning Joe 6/7/24

Episode Date: June 7, 2024

President Biden continues overseas trip to France

Leaders from all around the world visited Normandy today, including President Biden, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, and the king of World War II, Tom Hanks. Once again, these vets did an incredible service to their nation. They made Joe Biden look young. President turned on that classic Biden charm, telling one of the veterans, God willing, we'll see you at the 110th anniversary. That's awesome.

The 80th anniversary is today and the youngest one of those guys is 96. So by the 110th, they'll be. That's awesome. Good morning. Welcome to Morning Joe. It is Friday, June 7th. In just a few moments, President Biden, continuing his trip in France, will meet with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky in Paris as he continues to commemorate the 80th anniversary of D-Day. Following that speech today, another back in Normandy this afternoon. The bilateral meeting comes amid Russia's growing aggression and tensions over the pace of U.S. military aid. Good morning. With us, we've got

the host of Way Too Early, White House Bureau Chief at Politico, Jonathan Lemire, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist and associate editor of The Washington Post and MSNBC political analyst, Eugene Robinson, and President Emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations Richard Haass. He is author of the weekly newsletter, Home and Away, available on Substack. Good morning to all of you. Let's begin, though, with Kelly O'Donnell. We find her in Paris this morning. Kelly, so what can we expect from this meeting today between President Biden and President Zelensky? President Biden in that speech at Normandy yesterday, emphasizing the importance of supporting Ukraine through its war with Russia. Well, good morning, Willie. And certainly the relationship between the European allies, the United States and Ukraine, is very much relevant in the broader commemorations of D-Day,

because all of the focus has been on the threat of aggression and how can that be stopped and how can democracy be preserved. So expect those themes today from President Biden, both in his meeting with President Zelensky of Ukraine and in a separate speech he'll be doing for the American people that is not quite the same as what we saw yesterday, where you had two dozen world leaders and you had a very dramatic series of ceremonies. This will be a direct speech to the American people about some of the actions of American soldiers back 80 years ago. So in this meeting with President Zelensky at the President's Hotel this morning, we expect that he will be talking about aid,

how the U.S. and allies can support Ukraine. And we've seen in recent days how President Biden has authorized President Zelensky and Ukrainian forces to use American weapons beyond the borders of Ukraine, not all the way to Moscow, as the president says, not an attack on the Kremlin. But if there are defensive actions they need to take using American supplied weapons that go inside the borders of Russia in order to defend themselves against coming attacks, that that would be permitted. There has been a creep over the two plus years of the Ukrainian war where the U.S. has hesitated to provide a certain type of munition or supply or piece of equipment or the rules of engagement. And then because of conditions on the ground and concern about how Russia has been relentless in this assault on Ukraine, that sort of line has

moved at times. There was also very much a very broad, supportive welcome for President Zelensky at the D-Day events from some of the veterans who are certainly experienced in knowing what's on the line when you fight for your own existence, and at the same time from other world leaders. So today will be an important part, getting away from some of the commemoration, touching on that for sure, but talking about some of the present day concerns that face the president and allies of the United States here in Europe. Willie? We expect that meeting to happen in just a short time

from now, after which President Biden will travel back to Normandy for another speech today at Pont du Hoc. NBC senior White House correspondent Kelly O'Donnell in Paris for us this morning. Kelly, thanks so much as always. So, Richard, a significant moment piggybacking off of, as I mentioned, the speech yesterday, very well received there and in many quarters around the world, where President Biden used the themes of democracy, used the themes of supporting allies around the 80th anniversary of D-Day to talk about the critical importance of continuing to support President Zelensky and Ukraine in the fight against Russia. And today, an even bigger symbol of that with the bilateral meeting a short time from now. No, all true. The question, though, is there's tension between President Biden and President Zelensky. The issue is, again, exactly what arms are going to be supplied and even more,

how can they be used? And what Zelensky wants is not simply more arms sooner, but he wants a slightly greater envelope in terms of where and how he can use arms against Russia. The United States is trying to balance what happens on the battlefield against, how would I call it, provoking Russia to potentially escalate. And there's also a certain tension, I think, underneath the surface between the United States and Zelensky, not only over all this and the uncertainty, say, of Donald Trump were to be elected, but exactly what ought to define success. Mr. Zelensky obviously wants to liberate all the territory he's lost, not just since 2022, but more important, since 2014. People like me look at it and say that's not wildly

realistic. The definition of success may have to be dialed down. And that's underneath it all. What are we trying to accomplish here? And is the United States committed to liberating all the territory or are we committed to trying to bring about some type of an interim or temporary ceasefire or armistice? It's an awkward conversation, but my guess is that's also going to have to happen at some point. So let's talk about this day and this trip, Jonathan Lemire, as you cover this president. Yesterday, the speech at the American cemetery with those veterans behind him, very moving, of course, 99, 100 years old. Some of them today, as you've been telling us for the last several days, might dig a little deeper, might go a little harder on this theme of democracy and the contrast of what he's presenting and perhaps just implicitly suggesting of what his opponent in the presidential campaign back home is offering up this time around. What do you expect to see today from the president when he heads back to Normandy? He'll return to the site where

President Ronald Reagan, at the 40th anniversary of D-Day, delivered one of the most famous speeches of his presidency, the boys appoint to Hawk, praising the bravery of those American soldiers. We'll hear more of that from President Biden today as well, as he did yesterday. But this is, aides tell me, a chance to really draw a contrast. It'll be implicit, most likely, at the moment, Donald Trump's name not in the speech. But of course, it doesn't mean the president can't ad lib. But framing the stakes of this upcoming election for democracy at home and abroad. The idea that if Trump were returned to the White House, America's word couldn't be counted upon by its allies.

We know that Donald Trump nearly blew up NATO when he was in office the first time. We have seen him side with Putin over his own intelligence agencies. And we have seen him as an ex-president be deeply skeptical of the Ukrainian cause, suggesting that he would push them to settle on Putin's terms to end this war. So it's a big moment, one really aimed at the American audiences today. The Biden team believes, Richard, that this would be the latest in a series of set piece speeches he's given about democracy. This one, a little more of an international flavor than what he's done before, say, at Independence Hall. But they feel like it's an important moment. Do you think, though, that we know that American voters tend to not vote on foreign policy? There's some hope that

some will vote, weigh in on that. But also the other audience here, there's other heads of state that he gathered with yesterday trying to reassure them that the U.S. can be counted upon. But we hear it time and time again. He's greeted with skepticism. Well, on both. The American people don't vote on the basis of foreign policy. The polls show, you know, yes, Americans, what do you care most about? Things like the border, things like inflation. Foreign policy is difficult for me to admit it. It's tough. I'm sorry. It's not career enhancing. It's very low on the list. That really rattles the rest of the world, by the way. They don't get a vote in the American election. The American election will affect their security, their well-being. And the idea that Americans are going to go to

the polls not really mindful of that makes a lot of these leaders uneasy. And sure, look, the great untalked about issue at the summit, at all this, is what happens after November. And that's what's so different about this election. Historically, there was the presumption of 90 percent continuity. The differences between the Democrats and the Republicans and in a presidential election, even in Congress, was almost on which side of the 50 yard line were you going to be at? This is different. We're talking about something of an end zone. This is a totally different political reality for these European leaders. And there's no way Joe Biden can reassure them. He simply is. It's not a criticism of Joe Biden.

He's simply not in a position to guarantee the outcome of the election, much less guarantee what Donald Trump will do. So this is a it's you know, certain things can be managed. There's no way no matter how good a speech he gives today, doesn't matter in the sense of reassuring Europeans or the rest of the world about what the United States will become over the next, say, four years. Gene, you're writing about President Biden's visit to Normandy this week in your latest column for The Washington Post with some reflections on history as well, and not just the invasion of Normandy on D-Day 80 years ago, but where America was on the precipice of World War II in terms of the divisions we saw in this country, not unlike what we're seeing here now. Yeah, we look back at World War II and the D-Day invasion, and we see this incredible sort of national unity. Everyone was pulling in the same direction in this great struggle

that engulfed the entire world. And American society was transformed, and everyone had to pitch in. And there was national purpose and national unity. And we forget that in the years before the war, our country arguably was as divided as it is now. It was divided over a number of things. One way it was divided, obviously, was it was racially segregated. That continued even during the war. The units that went ashore at D-Day were all white and black battalion that landed that morning. There were others who came later and it was wounded as he landed with German shrapnel, pretty serious wounds. But he was well enough to set up a medical aid station on the beach. And he stood there and he treated the wounded for 30 hours before he collapsed and had to be taken to a hospital ship. He survived the war. He came home to a racially divided nation and was a second-class citizen until the civil rights movement triumphed, and he died in 2005. He was just this week awarded posthumously the Distinguished Service Cross, which is the second-highest

honor in the Army. That wasn't the only division. There were bitter divisions about whether the United States should or get involved in the war. Isolationism, you think it's something now. Isolationism was a major strain in our politics. There were bitter divisions over Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal policies, which were being described as totalitarianism and communism and socialism. The rhetoric we hear now, we have heard before. And the difference is that there cannot be another world war to unite us. Right. We can't have another one of those after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We can't we simply cannot have a world war like World War Two. And so we're going to have to find a different way to get past these divisions that beset us now.

We have a barely functional political system, but that's what we've got. we can continue because there can't be another D-Day like the one there was 80 years ago. Yeah. As you point out in the piece, America first, the term we hear from Donald Trump and his supporters now coined and used in the years leading up to World War II. And I'm so glad you're pointing to the heroism of so many of the black men who helped to liberate the beaches and treat the wounded there on D-Day. Remember, the military was desegregated by President Truman three years after the end of World War II, largely because of the heroism we saw there. So President Biden will meet with President Zelensky a short time from now before traveling back to Normandy. Meanwhile, the war in Gaza rages on. The leader of Hamas says he will only agree to the latest ceasefire proposal if Israel commits to permanently

ending the war in Gaza. The statement made in response to the three-phased plan President Biden publicly unveiled last week. Under the proposal, phase two would be an end to the war. That is a sticking point for Israel. Far-right members of Israel's government say the conflict can only end once Hamas is eradicated. Dozens of people, meanwhile, including children, were killed in an Israeli airstrike at a United Nations school in Gaza. It happened overnight Thursday. The Israeli military says it was targeting a Hamas compound embedded inside the school. The IDF claims about 30 terrorists were using the classrooms as a base.

The strike, however, drawing international criticism, as Gazan health officials say at least 40 people were killed. Israel so far has only released the names of nine terrorists it says died in the attack. Meanwhile, the United States says it will wait and see what information Israel releases about the strike before considering any action. The State Department says it expects the IDF to be, quote, fully transparent. This comes as The Washington Post reports a U.S.-made bomb was used in the strike at that school. President Biden addressed Israel's war with Hamas during an interview with ABC News yesterday in Normandy. The president said he believes Prime Minister Netanyahu has acknowledged concerns from the White House pointing to the way Israel adjusted its strategy in Rafah.

Is Benjamin Netanyahu listening to you? I think he's listening to me. They were going to go into Rafah full bore, invade all of Rafah, go into the city, take it out, move, move with full force. They haven't done that. And what they've done is they've agreed to a significant agreement that if, in fact, Hamas accepts it. And look, it's being backed by Egypt, being backed by the Saudis, being backed by almost the whole Arab world. We'll see. This is a very difficult time. Richard Haass, he's right about who's backing it. Everyone except the two parties involved in the war to have this ceasefire come about and perhaps an end to the war. Hamas

says it will not agree to the terms. Israel says it's not going to agree to any deal that does not include its eradicating Hamas, as Israel puts it. So where does that leave us? It was exactly a week ago today that President Biden went out and announced this three phase plan. And the way it was represented a week ago, that was essentially Israel's plan. And the idea was to get Hamas to sign on. Israel then backed away from it if they ever signed on to it to begin with. Hamas, as you saw in the news, has now said it won't accept a temporary ceasefire, which is phase one of the plan. So it seems to have been stillborn.

And what I think we're looking at is, again, the other part of the news this morning. You're going to have continued Israeli military operations there. Inevitably, no matter how careful Israel is because of co-location of Hamas with civilians, you're going to see the kinds of stories you have where innocent people are going to be killed along with Hamas militants. So my guess is we're going to see this for some time. This will go on. The Israeli national security advisor said military operations will continue through the end of the year. I don't see any reason to doubt that. And I think the real question also is now whether we see an escalation of fighting as things dial down somewhat in Gaza in the north between Israel and Hezbollah.

And that has been the most recent news out of Israel. So the idea that we're on the precipice of peace somehow there and actually the opposite is more the reality. I hate to be so depressing this morning, but I think we're looking at open ended but low level war in Gaza with the danger of escalation in the north and southern Lebanon. Yeah. And really, no question, the optimism that many in the Biden White House felt last Friday about that peace deal has really faded in the days since Hamas still not agreeing to it. Israel throwing up significant roadblocks. And there's some frustration among other Democrats that the president's red line on Rafa seems really faint and fungible.

That as long as their framing is, as Biden is saying, that as long as you don't go for an all out, full out assault to Rafa, you can kind of do what you want. And it's true. The president's right. Israel has not gone in full out to Rafah. But what they have done are these strikes that are killing civilians. We've had now the school this week, the tent city last week, children killed in both. That is really upsetting to Democrats, many of whom who have now said they're going to boycott Prime Minister Netanyahu's speech in his address to Congress, which is now slated for next month, July 24th, the date where Netanyahu is going to come to Washington, address both houses of Congress. Some Democrats have already said they want no part of that because of the conduct of the war in Gaza. What is not yet clear is whether Netanyahu will meet with President Biden. And if so, would that be at the White House? To this point, he has not come to the White House since

Biden took office. They met once on the sidelines of the United Nations just a couple weeks before the October 7th terror attack. Yeah, they'd be an extraordinary snub for him to come all the way to Washington and not meet with the president. We will watch that play out. Still ahead on Morning Joe this morning, former Trump adviser Steve Bannon must report to prison next month after defying a congressional subpoena.

We'll have the latest in that legal fight and Bannon's effort to appeal. President Trump, as you can imagine, weighing in as well. Morning Joe is coming back in just 90 seconds. There are 37 countries that Donald Trump, as a convicted felon, is not allowed to visit. And another impact of these many felony convictions is he loses his license to carry a concealed weapon, which, if you think about it, it's pretty crazy. A guy who's not allowed to carry a concealed weapon would be allowed to carry a nuclear weapon. This is like your parents saying, you know what?

You can't have a puppy, but if you get good grades, we'll buy you a werewolf. A judge announced that next month, Steve Bannon will start serving his time in prison. In prison? It looks like a guy who just got out of prison. Yeah, Bannon goes to prison on July 1st. It's too bad we're all going to miss out on seeing that summer beach bod. Former Trump advisor Steve Bannon has officially been ordered now to report

to prison next month. A judge ruled yesterday Bannon must begin his four-month sentence on July 1st. A stay on Bannon's sentence was lifted after his appeal in the case was denied. But as NBC News reports, Bannon still could appeal the ruling. He said yesterday his team plans to appeal all the way to the Supreme Court. We're going to go all the way to the Supreme Court if we have to, but I want to say something specifically about the Justice Department. Merrick Garland, Lisa Monaco, the entire Justice Department, they're not going to shut up Trump. They're not going to shut up Navarro. They're not going to shut up Bannon. And they're certainly not going to shut up MAGA.

Bannon was found guilty in 2022 of two counts of contempt of Congress for defying subpoenas from the January 6th Select Committee. Let's bring in former litigator and MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin. Lisa, good morning. So this is always framed, and we'll hear from President Trump on this in just a moment, as a personal attack, as President Biden ordering his opponents to jail, on and on and on. Except when you don't answer a subpoena, no matter who you are in our society, just like if you cook the books at your organization to pay off a porn star to stay quiet before a presidential election, there are consequences. There are indeed consequences.

And, you know, Willie, there is some connective tissue between this and the other case that you just mentioned, the recent conviction of former President Trump. And that connective tissue is Robert Costello, who was Steve Bannon's attorney and the attorney on whose advice he allegedly says he relied in ignoring that congressional subpoena. Steve Bannon wanted to argue, and this was the crux of his appeal, that he was entitled to reasonably rely on Bob Costello's advice that he should blow off the subpoena because Trump was going to invoke executive privilege. The only problem with that is twofold.

One, he was repeatedly advised by Trump campaign lawyers that that's not, in fact, what the former president intended to do for Steve Bannon, in part because Steve Bannon had been out of government for three years. But the other problem was that there is a 1961 case by the D.C. Circuit that says where contempt charges are concerned, it's no defense to say I relied on the advice of counsel. It was that decision that a recent D.C. circuit panel reaffirmed. And it's on that basis that yesterday, Judge Carl Nichols of the D.C. district court said, you know, sir, this no longer presents substantial questions of law. I am going to lift the stay of your sentence and you need to report by July 1st. Really, it will come as no surprise to anyone that Donald Trump took social media to rail against

this, calling it a total and complete American tragedy that the crooked Joe Biden Department of Justice is yada, yada, yada. But it's interesting. So Bannon has said that he will appeal again and that he's looking to push off that July 1st report date. Tell us what mechanism that would be. Is there a chance of success or is he going to go in July 1st? And we should know, though Bannon does not officially work for the Trump

campaign, he's an informal and very influential advisor and a large MAGA voice. But if he goes in July 1st, that means he's going to be silenced for the stretch run of the election. That is likely true. And I think it is likely, if not highly probable, that he'll go in in July 1st. So let's talk about his mechanisms for appeal. He can ask for a rehearing by the D.C. Circuit and bonk. That would mean every active judge on the D.C. Circuit, as opposed to a three-judge panel. He has until June 24th to make that request. But in all likelihood, they're not going to respond to that request before his July 1st reporting date. He can also file a petition for certiorari with the Supreme Court. But again, the deadline for him doing so comes after his July 1st reporting date. He can also file a petition for certiorari with the Supreme

Court. But again, the deadline for him doing so comes after his July 1st date. Now, either of those options, they could reimpose a stay of his sentence. Do I believe that it's likely that they're going to? I don't. And I think Steve Bannon will in all probability serve that four month sentence. And as you note, John, be silenced in the lead up to the election. That's particularly important because Steve Bannon was a huge voice for MAGA in the lead up to and more importantly, after the 2020 election. There is still a phone call between Donald Trump and Steve Bannon on January 6th that no one has quite explained. And Steve Bannon, of course, just this week even been musing about putting Donald Trump's perceived opponents in jail if Donald Trump is reelected. People like Alvin Bragg specifically this week.

The date is July 1st. As Lisa said, that's three weeks from Monday. A four month sentence for Steve Bannon. Hunter Biden's federal gun trial resumes in Delaware later this morning, a day after some of the most emotionally charged testimony so far. Hallie Biden, the widow of Hunter Biden's brother, Beau, testified yesterday describing to the jury the dark years after her husband died of brain cancer in 2015. Hallie, who had a relationship with Hunter following her late husband's death, described how she started using drugs after Hunter introduced them to her. Now, Hunter was sometimes

in denial about his own addiction. She also testified about finding his gun in his car. Prosecutors are expected to rest their case today. The defense says it may call two or three witnesses, but Hunter Biden's defense attorney says the team has not yet decided if Hunter will testify in his own defense. Hunter Biden faces felony charges over whether he lied on a federal gun form in 2018 that asked if he was addicted to drugs. He has pleaded not guilty. Meanwhile, President Biden is reiterating he will not pardon his son Hunter if he is convicted in that federal gun trial. As we sit here in Normandy, your son Hunter is on trial, and I know that you cannot speak about an ongoing federal prosecution. But let me ask you,

will you accept the jury's outcome, their verdict, no matter what it is? Yes. And have you ruled out a pardon for your son? Yes. Pretty clear there, Gene Robinson, and a significant moment we should stop there because this is a president of the United States talking about his own son saying he will accept the verdict no matter what it is and that he has ruled out pardoning his own son. Contrast that from what we hear from Donald Trump and everybody around him who says if anything cuts against him, the system is rigged. It is weaponized. It is an effort by President Biden himself to put Donald Trump in jail during the presidential year.

That bite should not be extraordinary from President Biden. But in our times, it is an important. It is important. Remember, Donald Trump has promised to pardon the January 6th rioters, the January 6th insurrectionists. And President Biden has promised not to pardon his own son. This is a tragedy, really, a story that is familiar, I think, to far too many families across this country, a story of addiction and the sort of spiral and and that doesn't seem to have take away the alleged crime that Hunter Biden committed by any stretch of the imagination. But I do think that people maybe understand this on human terms. And, you know, he will he will take the consequences, whatever those are.

But this is a story that, as I said, is just too familiar to far too many families. So, Lisa, the defense excuse me, the prosecution says it likely will rest today. We don't know what the defense has planned for next week. But for people not following along, how has this prosecution case been made so far? Has it been effective? And what do you expect to see from the defense? Well, the prosecution case really has focused really heavily on Hunter Biden's addiction, sometimes even using his own words against him in the form of an audio version of the book that he authored. What they are trying to show is that Hunter Biden knowingly and intentionally lied on the form that he needed to fill out when he purchased the gun, that he understood that he was a habitual drug user because they have testimony from all these people who are surrounding him throughout the period who are testifying to his drug use. was wrenching. It is messy. It calls up not only the sympathies of anybody who's had a family member who struggled with addiction, but just the messiness of family life. And there is no

situation messier for the Bidens than the entanglement between Hunter and his sister-in-law, Hallie Biden, that was exposed in full color yesterday. I very much feel for this family, and I feel for these jurors, too, who are being asked to make a decision about the future of someone who has so publicly struggled with addiction and yet has also, in maybe stark terms, violated the law to its letter, if not its spirit. Let's be clear. Despite Republican efforts, there's no equivalence here between the conviction for Donald Trump, who is running for office, and Hunter Biden on trial, certainly not seeking any sort of public office, and nonetheless, the White House.

In terms of the fallout as to what's to come here, it's both political and personal. Political, even if Hunter Biden were to be convicted, most those in the Biden campaign, and frankly, those I've spoken to in the Trump campaign, don't think it's going to move the needle too much. Most Americans, first of all, are sympathetic to stories of addiction. Republicans have tried to make Hunter Biden a major issue since all the way back in 2020. We've seen impeachment hearings, inquiry hearings centered around him. None of that has really gotten any traction. Yes, it will, of course, be a few days of bad headlines if there's a conviction. No one seems to think this will alter the trajectory of the race all that much. But there's also, perhaps more important,

the personal toll on the president. I've been told by advisors, even though he is overseas, he is still keeping tabs of the trial. The White House does not have a war room. The White House does not have a representative in Wilmington. But the president still continues to reach out to his son. He communicates with Hunter each and every day. There are other relatives who are there in the courtroom. He's been talking to them, following a little bit on media coverage. If a conviction were to come, particularly if it was to be accompanied by a prison sentence, there is a sense, Willie, that would really weigh heavily on this president. And as evidence of that, First Lady Jill Biden in Normandy yesterday for the D-Day ceremonies

has flown back to Wilmington. She will be with her son today in court and then afterwards returns to Paris to join her husband for the state dinner tomorrow. This is weighing very heavily on the entire Biden family. Yeah, the First Lady's been shuttling between the trial in Delaware and France just to be at the side of Hunter Biden. And again, we have to underline in no uncertain terms, President Biden saying, I will accept the outcome. I will just accept what the jury decides here. That's the way our legal system works. And no, I will not pardon my own son if he is convicted.

MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin. Lisa, thank you as always. We appreciate it. Coming up, our next guest is examining what he says are America's defining characteristics at the moment anyway, division, mistrust and misinformation. The author of the new book, The Forever War, America's unending conflict with itself, joins us ahead on Morning Joe. We have to change the system. We have to straighten out what's going on in these courts. We've got a rigged deal going, this whole country. And we've got to do it. And those appellate courts have to step up and

straighten things out or we're not going to have a country any longer. This election coming up on November 5th, 2024, is going to go down as the most important day, because if we don't win, it's we, it's all of us, it's millions of people. If we don't win, this country is finished. Country is finished if he doesn't win an election. Donald Trump at a rally in Arizona last night, offering his dim view of America, claiming the whole country is rigged against him, giving an ominous warning about America's future if he does not defeat President Biden in November. Our next guest argues the division we're seeing in America right now, not really a product of our times, is actually part of the fabric of our country's history.

Join us now, former BBC foreign correspondent Nick Bryan, who spent years reporting from Washington. He's the author of the new book, The Forever War, America's Unending Conflict with Itself. Nick, good morning. It's good to have you back with us. So tell us more about your thesis here and how far back you think this stretches for America. My thesis, Willie, is that Donald Trump is as much a product of American history as John F. Kennedy, Abraham Lincoln, Ronald Reagan or Joe Biden. It's just the history that we tend to forget, misremember or deliberately erase. What it also argues is that you're in this forever war, an unending conflict, because so much of that history is unresolved. You have an unending conflict about abortion. You have an unending conflict about guns. You have an unending

conflict about race. So much of the history is unresolved. And what I also say is division has so often been the default. If you go back to the founding days of the republic, victory over the British brought independence, but it didn't bring an instant sense of nationhood. It wasn't until about 50 years later that America really had a national consciousness. America has always been divided, and we are seeing those divisions play out now. Nick, it's Richard Haass. It just seems to me what you're offering up is a true glass-half-empty view of this country. Of course there's divisions. Of course there's differences. First of all, tell me the society or country that doesn't have them. And what marks a country,

I would argue, is not the absence of differences, it's the ability to deal with them. And someone could say, other than the civil war, we've got a pretty decent record over two and a half centuries of dealing with our differences, dealing with our divisions. So why are you treating us so negatively and, if you will, so differently from your own country or any other? Richard, I think there are a few countries that contest their history so fiercely. There's America. I think there are a few countries that are still arguing over the rules of democracy, advanced countries that are literally arguing over the rules of democracy. I love America. I'm not one of those Europeans that knocks America. I feel more comfortable in America than I do in my homeland of Britain. I have a daughter who is American. She is already showing signs of being a bona fide New Yorker. And I absolutely love that. I've always somebody who's told a great story about America.

But as a BBC correspondent in the Trump era, that story became very hard to tell because the news cycle almost seemed like a history cycle in microcosm. Constant arguments over guns, constant arguments over race, constant arguments over the apportionment of power between the president, the judiciary and the legislature. These are arguments that have always been there. You talk about slavery and things were sorted out after that. But the way that was sorted out, as you know, was to have segregation in the South. And what worries me now is that what was always been a beacon of democracy looks increasingly to the rest of the world, more like a dumpster fire. And that pains me to say it as somebody who deeply loves your country. Actually, I'm going to push back again. If it was such a dumpster fire,

why do you have so many people wanting to come to this country? I would think people are voting with their feet. That's a market. Again, if you think about the Constitution, it was described by one great scholar as an invitation for the struggle in my area over the course of American foreign policy. Again, it almost seems to me, as the Brits would say, you're trailing your cape. You're looking for a fight here when, in fact, one doesn't exist. The idea that we have tensions in our society, I would say, is healthy. The whole idea of checks and balances. We want to institutionalize tensions. And I get, but, you know, you talked about race, but then we had the civil rights movement. That seems to me a really good example of a society that recognizes its divisions

and then has not solved them, but has dealt with them, I think, remarkably well. Richard, I did my doctoral thesis on the civil rights movement. I know about the reforms of the civil rights movement, the dismantlement of segregation in 1964, the Voting Rights Act in 1965. But what happened as soon as the ink on that document was dried? The assault on democracy began again. People were trying to stop people of color from voting and this was something that went on decades indeed you know january the sixth in many ways was the culmination of an assault on democracy that has been going on for decades and democracy was not that strong in the first place one of the reasons why american democracy is frail because the

founding fathers did not intend to be that strong. They were not in favor of a mass democracy. They saw the body politic as something that should be constrained in an intricately designed straitjacket, which is why you had things like the Electoral College and why you had counter-majoritarian mechanisms like the Senate. One of the reasons why democracy is frail right now because it wasn't that strong in the first place. Nick, I get your argument. And it

certainly is true that when there is an advance like the civil rights movement, the election of the first African-American president is the most recent example. There is a backlash, and that issue essentially is fought again. But, you know, if you study the civil rights movement, you know of Dr. King's famous quote, the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice. Do you accept that argument that American history is—yes, it is, you know, three steps forward and at least two steps back, and another three steps sideways, and then maybe we go forward again, but that it ratchets eventually toward greater freedom, greater inclusion. And, you know, there was a time when this country was only for, you know, white men who owned property and, you know, African-American men could theoretically vote at least, and then women could vote. And then, you know, it's—so,

would you buy the argument that, yeah, it's more of a ratcheting process that's messy and scratchy, but that when you look back over the span of 50 years or 100 years, you have moved, you have gotten someplace? The grand narrative of American history, as you say, Eugene, is one of progress and advancement with occasional setbacks. And nothing speaks more of that than race. And I think that was why Donald Trump's victory in 2016 was so shocking in many ways. There was an assumption, maybe, that America's first African-American president, what a breakthrough that was. It almost felt to me like an end of history moment. But it wasn't the end of American history. There was a feeling that Obama might be followed into office by America's first female president.

Again, this idea of progress and advancement. But what happened instead, of course, was you got a racist misogynist as president. And now, even after January the 6th, when an American sitting president incited insurrectionists to storm the Capitol to try and overturn a clear-cut presidential result, he is still the Republican nominee. And what happened after those insurrectionists were cleared from Capitol Hill? So many Republican lawmakers went back into the chambers where they'd run for their lives and voted again to challenge and overturn the election. Now, that does not look like progress to me. That looks like a major setback. And I think Trump's victory almost

challenged our historical belief system about America. And that, in many ways, is what the forever war, America's unending conflict with itself, is about. A spirited debate about the new book, The Forever War, America's unending conflict with itself. One I figure we will continue in the weeks and months to come. Come back and see us, Nick Bryant. Thanks so much. We appreciate it. Still ahead this morning, the New Yorker's Susan Glasser joins us with her new piece, Fighting Trump on the Beaches. She'll break down that split screen between President Biden's speech in Normandy defending democracy with Donald Trump back home focused on what he calls the enemy within. Plus, Army combat veteran Congressman Jason Crow of Colorado will be our guest

as he helps us to commemorate the 80th anniversary of D-Day with President Biden speaking again today in Normandy. And later this morning, comedian actress Margaret Cho joins us to talk about her upcoming Netflix documentary, Outstanding, A Comedy Revolution. Morning Joe's coming right back. It's an acquisition from Charlotte. He's been their third leading scorer in the playoffs. What a season he's had. Brown goes inside. Oh, what a slam from Jalen Brown. My goodness.

Boston's Jalen Brown with a huge dunk between defenders in the second quarter. Good for two of his team. High 22 points as the Celtics run the Dallas Mavericks out of the building in game one of the NBA Finals. Boy, did they look good last night. The Celtics led by as many as 29 points in the first half, with six players scoring in double digits. That includes Christoph Porzingis, who put up 20 points off the bench

in a strong return to the court after more than a month on the sideline with a calf injury. It was a rough outing for Mavs star, former Celtic Kyrie Irving. Booed every time he touched the ball. He had just 12 points. Boston crowd booed him right from the introduction. And as I said, every time the ball touched his hands, the Celtics win the series opener 107-89. Game two is Sunday night in Boston.

John, you and I both watched the first half of last night's game. And my goodness, did the Celtics look good? Sometimes you ask, OK, they have 10 days off. Are they going to be rusty? There's always that conversation. They came out like a team looking to win a title last night. Man, they look good. By the numbers, this is a historically great Celtics team. No one who watched them every night thinks that they actually are that good. By the numbers, this is a historically great Celtics team. No one who watches them every night thinks that they actually are that good. But when they have everything clicking, boy, last night, they looked borderline unstoppable. They played tremendous defense, as you noted. They smothered Kyrie. Yeah, Luka got his 30, but he had to really work hard for it. He didn't shoot well.

He didn't set up his teammates. The Mavericks only had nine assists as a team last night. What goes to show you just how the Celtics smothered the ball. And it was a true team effort on offense. Jalen Brown was big. Drew Holiday played well. Tatum was unselfish. And then, yes, returning Porzingis to this lineup just puts them on another level. Now, we have a long way to go in this series.

The Celtics' habit this year is when they greet success, they then tend to take their foot off the gas. They keep losing game twos in series. I'd like to see that end this time around. Go up 2-0, go back to Dallas. But this is, look, one down, three to go. But I'm preaching caution to the Celtics team. They have a ways to go, and Luka's still the best player in the series.

Gene, it wouldn't be a Boston fan without some cynicism. Pessimism. Pessimism about a 20-point win in game one. No, but let's be, you know, the Celtics have a track record here, and they do blow game twos, and so let's see what happens. If you guys had stayed up one more quarter, which I did, unfortunately, because it's really early in the morning. If you had watched the third quarter, you saw a spurt in which the Mavericks sort of showed why they were there. I mean, they got to within eight

points. Now, I never thought they were going to win the game. And the Celtics looked absolutely unbeatable last night. But I think you might see a different Kyrie in the next game. I think you might see a different Luka in the next game. I think it'll be a lot closer than this one was. I think the Celtics will win, but we'll see. Willie, you missed the lead part of the story, how the ex-Nick put the Celtics over the top. And I think that's really what this is.

We're happy to have him. Happy to have him? Yeah. Man, he's – and on defense, too. He blocked a bunch of shots in that – just a flurry in the first half. They look great. We'll see if our resident pessimist is right about game two coming up on Sunday night. In Major League Baseball, Richard, this one's for you.

In the Bronx, the New York Yankees continued their dominance of the Minnesota Twins, completing a season sweep with an 8-5 victory last night. It's the Yankees' eighth consecutive win overall. Yankees, though, may have suffered a significant loss in that victory. Star-slugger Juan Soto left the game with left forearm discomfort, as it was described, after an hour-long rain delay before the sixth inning. He's expected to undergo some imaging today. Not yet clear if Soto will need to miss time.

It sounds, Richard, like this has been bugging him for a couple of weeks. They decided not to bring him back after the layoff and the rain delay. Hopefully, it's not a larger problem because he and Aaron Judge are having as good a first half of a season together as teammates as any duo in the history of the game. It's amazing to watch. The Yanks are playing 700 ball. They are playing at an elite level. They're still doing it without arguably their best pitcher. I don't know what left forearm discomfort quite means. Tommy John surgery for three years. Sorry. No. But yeah, this has been fun to watch. Look, you've got four or five great teams this year. So, you know, let the games continue.

But hopefully this isn't anything serious. But to watch him, Judge, Volpe, this is about as good as it gets as a Yankee fan. It's been a long time, Willie. I feel like we've been in the wilderness. This has been Moses-like. We've been in the desert for a long time. So this has been great to watch. People do not, Richard, Richard it turns out like to hear

Yankee fans whine about not winning but we can it's been 15 years since our since our last world series title fun series this weekend starts tonight with the Dodgers coming in to Yankee Stadium all weekend how about in softball just an absolute dynasty in Oklahoma this was in Oklahoma City last night Oklahoma Sooners NCAA champions for a record fourth year in a row. They won four national titles in a row. Oklahoma slugging its way to an 8-4 victory over the rival Texas Longhorns. They've been back and forth all season as one and two in the country and they met for the championship. Oklahoma coming out on top. A two-game sweep in the Women's College World Series. Again, their fourth title in a row.