Morning Joe - Morning Joe 7/10/23

Episode Date: July 10, 2023

President Biden meeting with PM Sunak, King Charles

It was a very difficult decision on my part. And by the way, I discussed this with our allies, discussed this with our friends up on the Hill. This is a war relating to munitions and the running out of those that ammunition. But it was not an easy decision. And it's not we're not signatories to that that agreement. But I it took me a while to be convinced to do it. President Joe Biden defending his decision to send cluster munitions to Ukraine. It comes as there is growing pressure from NATO allies to speed up the membership process for the war-torn country. Meanwhile, President Biden is in London this morning. He's meeting now with the UK prime minister and later today

he will sit down with King Charles. It's all part of a busy week in Europe that includes a NATO summit. Back here at home, Republicans in Iowa are making an interesting choice for the date of the 2024 presidential caucuses. We'll have the party's response to questions about that decision. As for the candidates, we'll read from communist Peggy Noonan's new piece on whether Trump will soon reach his Waterloo. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Monday, July 10th. It's good to be back. It's wonderful. Bright and early. We were gone. I never knew. Yeah, we were gone for a week. With us, we have the president of the National Action Network and host of MSNBC's Politics Nation, Reverend Al Sharpton, former aide to the George W. Bush State Department, Elise Jordan, columnist and associate editor for The Washington Post,

David Ignatius, and Pulitzer Prize winning historian John Meacham is with us this morning. So moments ago, President Biden arrived at 10 Downing Street in London, where he was met at the door by United Kingdom Prime Minister Rishi Sunak. President Biden is holding meetings this morning in the morning with the PM ahead of a trip to Windsor Castle this afternoon. While there, he will meet with the newly crowned King Charles for the first time since he ascended the throne. This afternoon, the two will participate in a climate engagement at the castle before President Biden leaves for the NATO summit beginning tomorrow in Lithuania.

Let's go to London right now and get the host way too early. Jonathan Lemire, also White House bureau chief at Politico. He is, of course, at Buckingham Palace to talk about the Boston Red Sox five game winning streak and the fact that only one game behind the Yankees going to the All-Star break and only two games behind in the wild card chase. What say the new king, Jonathan Lemire? And also, secondly, talk about the meeting between the president and the prime minister. This is going to be their sixth meeting in six months. Obviously, NATO membership at the forefront. And then, of course, King Charles III, always his focus has always been on the environment. We just endured three, four of the hottest days in history of of of the world since it's been recorded.

That obviously has to be on the front of many people's minds there. Good morning, guys. I'm coming to you live from the official Caddy K position for morning Joe at the Canada Gate of Buckingham Palace. In fact, the changing of the guard happening just over my shoulder as we speak. This is indeed the president's first day here in Europe. I traveled with him last night on Air Force One here. As you saw, he just arrived at number 10 to meet with Rishi Sunak, their sixth meeting in as many months. Certainly the war in Ukraine is part of today's conversation. There is a difference of opinion on those cluster bombs. The U.S. has signed off on sending those munitions to Ukraine as part of the war effort. The U.K. is one of the countries who signed a treaty that prevents doing that.

But aides tell me they don't think that will be a major flashpoint of tension there. As you mentioned, the president will then meet with the king later today. The King Charles is certainly environmental issues. Climate change has always been at the forefront of his public agenda. The president is going to use that meeting today to try to create a public-private partnership to help on those issues. And the two men, I'm told, have a bit of a kinship. Both have waited a long time to ascend to the most powerful position in their country and have warm relations from their previous meetings on the international stage. But you're right, Joe. Certainly, this is all just a prelude

to the NATO summit in Lithuania. Ukraine not expected to gain admission to the alliance anytime soon, but that will be a topic of conversation, as will be Sweden. We can dive into all of that, as well as the number one topic on both sides of the pond. Those surging Boston Red Sox as we head into the break. Of course. Looking perhaps to make that wild card run. That's surprisingly so, Mika, frankly. Yeah, it really is surprisingly so.

King Charles III, of course, after talking about the environment, is going to turn to the president and say, buy or sell? No. Buy or sell? No. Watch if the Sox do a trade deadline. Of course, you'll be there every second while that's breaking. And please keep us informed. We'll be coming back to you often on that.

David Ignatius, of course, you spent many years talking to Dr. Brzezinski about Ukraine. It was an obsession of his for decades. And you all talked about it at length, the possibility of Ukraine becoming a member of NATO. Obviously, the president says they can't right now because that would mean war with Russia, which they're trying to avoid. But let's talk about that. But also, I think right now more relevant because it's more possible. The fact that you have Turkey standing in the way of Sweden, who would be a forceful, important, powerful member of NATO as an addition. Talk about the possibility of Joe Biden possibly making progress on getting Sweden into the NATO alliance.

So, Joe, I had an unusual opportunity to walk through each of these key issues that we'll be facing. President Biden, when he lands tomorrow in Vilnius with his national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, on Friday had a small group of us by in auspicious, somewhat ominous rooms, the Secretary of War's rooms in the old executive office building to talk about these issues. So first, on the question of the NATO summit and the big issue before it, the president has made clear that he doesn't think this is the time to admit NATO. Admitting a country that's at war with Russia to NATO would perhaps imply that NATO should immediately come to that country's aid with the full commitment. Article 5, a pledge to use nuclear weapons. And neither Biden or most NATO members are ready to do that.

Some countries, the Baltic countries, Poland, want a timetable. OK, you can't come now, but let's let's give Ukraine a timetable for when they can join again. Biden is reluctant, as is Germany. Then you have the question of Sweden's membership. NATO is on the way to being the strongest alliance it's ever been, arguably one of the strongest in world history. But Turkey has been blocking Sweden's accession. I was assured by the National Security Advisor, Jake Sullivan, that these problems with Turkey are being resolved. It's notable that President Biden

called Erdogan the president of Turkey on Sunday. He's going to meet him in Vilnius on Tuesday. And there's a feeling that this is going to be worked out. It may be worked out this week, but if not this week, soon. So there's a general feeling that the big issues, although there'll be some signs of controversy, basically are understood on all sides. The key, I would just conclude, is how does NATO come out of this summit with a real sense that it has a strategy not simply for sustaining Kyiv as long as it takes, but for winning. Russia is weak now. Russia's in disarray. If ever there was a moment to really have a strategy, have a push to get to a different status for Ukraine, a victory in this conflict, it's right now. Well, Joe, you have a new piece in The Atlantic. It's out just moments ago and it's on

my favorite topic, which is where America stands with the world as the NATO summit starts. And you write this. America is doing just fine. You argue, quote, Uncle Sam deserves a modern day Atticus Finch to argue his case before the American people. And you also write in part, quote, liberals once gained favor among their base by attacking the Pentagon's top brass. But now it is Republican members of Congress who longingly swoon over Russia's manly military while trashing U.S. generals and our men and women in uniform. Those GOP attacks come despite the fact that America's military is more powerful today relative to the rest of the world

than at any time since the Second World War. Unlike in years past, American allies no longer grouse about the U.S. leading from behind or burrowing itself into a self-defeating America first hole. Instead, the U.S. is first among equals in a dynamic and expanding NATO alliance that just added a new member with more than 800 miles of Russian border, and that has provided a devastating response to Vladimir Putin's illegal invasion of Ukraine. Looking east, the United States has

finally begun its pivot to Asia, strengthening military cooperation with Japan, the Philippines, Guam, South Korea and Australia. The current disruption in U.S.-Sino relations may have less to do with spy balloons and diplomatic missteps than with Xi Jinping's rational fear of being hemmed in by an increasingly muscular U.S. military presence surrounding the South China Sea. President Joe Biden's recent diplomatic overtures toward India were likewise calculated to contain China's regional ambitions. Childhood poverty has dropped to the lowest level on record. Teenage pregnancy has done the same. The U.S. dollar has experienced generational highs over the past year.

Unemployment recently hit a 54-year low. The number of job openings this past year also hit record highs. Overall, the U.S. economy continues to surge forward despite economists' dire predictions. America's GDP grew to 25 trillion last year. Texas has a bigger economy than Russia. And although California is routinely rebuked by right-wing critics. It has the fourth strongest economy in the world, stronger than Britain's, France's, Canada's or India's. The United States and its European allies collectively run an economic machine that doubles China's stagnating output. Despite record debt levels, a stubborn case of inflation and other structural challenges,

American capitalism continues to drive and dominate the world economy. Though a fulsome defense of Uncle Sam often requires dialectical thinking. But remember this, even with all of its failings, America has fed and freed more human beings than any other country in history. And despite the blather that cable news hosts spit at you daily, your country is doing pretty damn well. And I think it's fair to say Joe Biden has led that international effort. Well, he certainly has. I mean, this is something I was also saying during the Trump administration, during the Obama administration, during the Bush administration. I've been saying for quite some time, not on the foreign policy side, because I will say on the foreign policy

side, Joe Biden has has has done extraordinarily well. Afghanistan, the one challenge, which I discuss also in this column, it was done. It was promised by the past three presidents to do the same thing. And 70 percent of Americans supported Joe Biden doing that when he did it. Even 55 percent of Americans supported him after he did it. The purpose, though, of this column wasn't to talk about Joe Biden or Donald Trump or anybody else. It was to talk about America. John Meacham, as I was going through the Fourth of July reading, it was 75 percent of Americans think we're going in the wrong direction. I could find another poll, though, that says 75 percent

of Americans say their economic standing is good, are excellent right now. And there's this there's this bizarre disconnect between perception and reality. I also go down so many things in this column about, for instance, you know, Republicans now have become the new the new lefties trashing, you knowashing college campuses, doing everything but taking over presidents' offices and universities, despite the fact every year our universities and colleges are ranked the best in the world and the most powerful people in the world

desperately try to get their children into our universities. The smartest kids on the planet come to our universities, and yet they're constantly trashed as woke and weak. And we hear all of this, John, and there's just a massive disconnect. The fact is the United States is the most powerful, most productive, most successful country on the planet. And yet we never hear that from our politicians year in and year out.

Well, there's I think one of the great disconnects that you've pointed out is between people who talk about these things publicly, people who poll on them and then in a cycle then talk about the polling results, and what people genuinely think. And my own sense is that part of the wages of having such a radically polarized political class, which is to say those who have an economic, cultural, and often ideological stake in an unfolding political drama. Because of that polarization, it's not in anyone's interest to say what you just said. Because what's interesting about, hey, everything's good. You know, yeah, there are problems. We should work on it. That's not

going to get people outraged. It's not going to guarantee advertisers that people are going to tune in. You need on the right, you need to think that the world is ending and that President Biden bizarrely is leading this these end times. And on the left, you have to be perpetually on edge about fascism at home. And there's a hugely legitimate reason to worry about fascism at home, because the only threat, I mean, the main threat to the world, the American state that you just described is internal. Right. It's that we will gnaw on ourselves. We will let appetite and ambition overcome a kind of constitutional order where we're not perfect, but we're trying to get a little more perfect, and where democratic capitalism can, in fact, create prosperity and possibility for others.

I just think that part of the, I think the main problem, and I think this helps explain the president's polling numbers, is that there's little incentive in a polarized political climate to say what you just said, however true it is. And I think that's what the case that has to be made again and again. And it may be that the people who decide the 2024 election are not watching us this morning, are not tuned in to the minute to minute, but who are in about five or six states and are going to assess the state of the nation sometime next year. And I think that that's not necessarily a bad thing. Where it is, where it does create a cost, though, is that what we're seeing this week with President Biden going to NATO with this unfolding story is this is why we have presidents.

This is why we need serious people to be president. Because I was looking at the map you had. Look, look at that. Look at the size of Russia, the size of NATO. This is great power stuff that can go. Look at that. That can go wrong. It's amazing. And don't you want a grown up sitting there to get the call? Imagine that map. Yeah. Nobody would have imagined that map. John Meacham, in 1981, in 1991, when the Soviet Union collapsed, even in 2000 or even in 2017, when there was a president who was trying to undo NATO. It is extraordinary what has happened. And of course, Vladimir Putin's responsible for most of it by his missteps. But no, you're exactly right.

That is an incredible map to behold. As James Trevita said, Admiral Trevita said, we've turned the Baltic Sea into the NATO lake. It's unbelievable. The Reverend Alley also talked about challenges that we've had as a country moving toward a more perfect union. Talk about how the author of the Declaration of Independence was a slaveholder, the drafter of the Constitution, a slaveholder. And yet it was Abraham Lincoln

who used Thomas Jefferson's Declaration of Independence specifically for the argument to grant emancipation to slaves in 1863. And then 100 years later, it was Martin Luther King who used that same declaration as a, quote, promissory note for all Americans. And that pressure, what Martin Luther King did 60 years ago next month, holding the declaration, basically holding the Declaration of Independence up to JFK, to members of Congress, to all Americans saying, this is our promissory note and it's time

that it is paid off. Well, it was paid off a year later in the Civil Rights Act and two years later in the Voting Rights Act. So we are all. And by the way, Madison, the slaveholder, Madison's constitution held Donald Trump and held others like Donald Trump in check. Two hundred and forty years later. So we are a very imperfect union. But as you say all the time, we are still moving toward being a more perfect union. But as you say all the time, we are still moving toward being a more perfect union. We are an imperfect nation, but it is our job to try and perfect this nation and move away from those imperfections. And we have seen in history people and across lines of race and religion and gender that has moved toward that.

As you talk about Martin Luther King, 100 years after the 1863 Emancipation Proclamation, and as you know, his son Martin III and Andrea King and I are going back with a huge march there this August. Why did Dr. King go to the Lincoln Memorial? It really comes right out of what you were writing about in The Atlantic. He didn't go to the Washington Monument. He didn't go to the Jefferson Memorial. He went to the Lincoln Memorial because that's where the promise came from. And he said, Mr. Lincoln, you promised. And he raised the promise from that declaration in his speech. We go to the end of the speech,

the climax of what we would say of a sermon. I have a dream. But the content was to make America live up to the promise. And we still are moving toward that promise. And I think we made some progress. I think we need more to go. Contrast that with a Donald Trump who, when he moved into the Oval Office, he hung up a picture in the Oval Office of Andrew Jackson, who was an avowed segregationist and one that advocated state slavery and states rights. So when you contrast Biden, who's trying to continue that trajectory to a Trump who's in the spirit of Andrew Jackson, that's what the American public is going to have to deal with next year. And while we're talking about NATO, we have we have another view on NATO from somebody from the Atlantic Council to my brother. My brother writes Ukraine needs NATO membership, not an Israel model.

That would be like, for example, what Israel has is a 10-year commitment. My brother, Ian Brzezinski, not Mark, the former U.S. Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Europe and NATO Policy and Senior Fellow at the Atlantic Council, writes in part this. This approach, an alternative to Ukraine's membership in NATO, is a mistaken application of Israel's geopolitical circumstances, one that would indefinitely perpetuate Russia's aggression. Israel's adversaries in the Islamic world are not major powers. Kiev confronts a far more significant adversary. Moscow's determination to obliterate Ukraine and its history far exceeds the collective intensity of Israel's adversaries. As long as NATO is not fully committed to defending the security of Ukraine,

Putin will continue his violent quest, especially if he believes continuing the conflict is the key to preventing Ukrainian membership in the alliance. Putin must not be given an indefinite veto over transatlantic security. Granting NATO membership to Ukraine is critical to ensuring it wins the war against Russia quickly and decisively. It is the most unambiguous way to demonstrate to Putin that suborning Ukraine is unachievable and wasteful. It is the most reliable way to ensure such aggression never happens again. What is so fascinating, Elise Jordan, about that argument is it's an argument that Ian Brzezinski's father had made off and on at times. I mean, it's been a question that's vexed American foreign policy leaders for for for quite a very long time,

not just because of the threat from Russia, but because of the challenges internally in Ukraine as well. But right now, Ian Brzezinski and Applebaum Colonel Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, you there there. And a lot of Republicans are saying that Joe Biden needs to actually go further, be stronger and admit Ukraine into NATO right now. What are your thoughts? It was interesting to me that President Biden struck such a hard line saying now is not the time, given that Putin is at a point of weakness and the Ukrainians are armed pretty much as well as they've been at any point in the war and are expected to have a great offensive going forward. And so Putin is really at a weak point. And so why not keep the pressure going there?

It was odd to me that that was such a strong statement. And while I'm not necessarily sure that Ukraine should be admitted right now, just completely dismissing the possibility down the road seems like that plays into Putin's hand at a time when he's weak. Right. Yep. Yeah. You know, David Ignatius, let me ask you that, because it struck me the same way. It's kind of like when he called when Joe Biden called Vladimir Putin a killer. I say, OK, he is maybe not the most diplomatic language when he called she a dictator right after poor Tony Blinken had just gone to visit she and sort of straighten up the covers and get, you know, tuck in the bed and get that that alliance sort of neat and orderly or at least on the right path. Again, it was, you know, messed up by that. I was curious, do you think that was deliberate yesterday when Joe Biden acted as forcefully or could have used more diplomatic language? Well, you know, I think this is his view. It's important that our allies know exactly what the U.S. view is. There is a bit of

a split in NATO now. The Baltic states, Poland, the countries that are closest to Russia that feel the threat of Putin most directly would like more of a commitment. They'd like, if not immediate membership, everybody accepts that's not really feasible. They'd like a timetable for membership. And Biden has resisted that and has argued instead the security of Ukraine is going to be dependent on two things. Ukraine's own military power. I mean, Ukraine is going to have the strongest army in Europe coming out of this war. Ukraine is going to need weapons. It's going to need F-16s.

It's going to need more tanks so that it really is this power that can prevent Russia from ever, ever doing it again. And secondly, like Israel, it's going to need an American guarantee. When people talk about the Israel model that Mika's brother, Ian, rejected,

what they mean is that the commitment the United States has made to Israel now for decades, that you will have a quantitative and qualitative edge in military weapons as far ahead as we can see against your Arab enemies. It's an absolute commitment and it's been kept by every president. And I think Ukraine is going to have as strong a lobby in America for its future defense needs as Israel does. So I thought the president was just saying what, you know, what everybody knows about the U.S. position. It's important for us not to be ambiguous. The one thing this alliance doesn't need is American, you know, trying to try to

make nice to people and say say things people want to hear. Just I would make the point, going into this summit, there's a little bit of talk about all our internal visions and conflicting ideas about the future. I hope NATO pulls together and says, Russia's never been weaker than it is now. Ukraine has never been stronger as it presses its offensive than it is now. It needs all the help we can give. Anything that we might wish we'd done, if their counteroffensive fails at the end of the year, let's do now. Let's give them the

weapons that they needed. They just did that with the cluster bombs. That's going to make a difference. It's going to allow them to keep fighting. They were running out of ammunition, folks. That won't happen now, thanks to Biden's decision, which is not an easy one. Well, still ahead on Morning Joe, continued coverage of President Biden overseas in London today, ahead of this week's NATO summit. At top of mind for leaders of the alliance will be Ukraine, as we've been discussing, where President Zelensky is calling BS on Donald Trump's claims he would end the war in a single day. Meanwhile, the former president returned to

the campaign trail over the weekend with sharpened attacks against his political opponents. We'll show you his new comments about Ron DeSantis, DeSantis. Plus, why Republicans in Iowa have decided to hold the first in the nation caucus on a federal holiday. And tomorrow morning, 2024 Republican presidential candidate, former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, will be our guest. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. Then about three years later, they said to him, will you run against the president? And he said, I have no comment on that. I said, he has no comment, that means he's running.

I said, that son of a is running. I got him elected. So I'm not a big fan of his and he's highly overrated. Well he also has no personality, that helps, right? As a politician you have to have personality. You saw where he wants to change his name. It's DeSantis. He wants to call it DeSantis. But you don't do it in the middle of a campaign.

I actually think he has that backwards. He spent his entire life calling himself DeSantis. And then he changed it to DeSantis. I have to agree with it. Anyhow, Donald Trump returning to the campaign trail this weekend with a visit to a Calvary church in Las Vegas. As for DeSantis, he is blaming the media campaign is, quote, facing an uphill battle, adding that they're way behind in national polling. Here was DeSantis' response to that. These are narratives. The media does not want me to be the nominee. I think that's very,

very clear. Why? Because they know I'll beat Biden. But even more importantly, they know I will actually deliver on all these things. We will stop the invasion at the border. We'll take on the drug cartels. We'll curtail the administrative state. We'll get spending under control. We'll do all the things that they don't want to see done. And so they're going to continue doing the type of narrative. I can tell you, we understand this is a state-by-state process. We've had incredible support in the early states, building an organization, signing up the key people that you need to be able to compete in a place like Iowa.

We just launched our Mamas Movement. My wife was in Iowa with Governor Kim Reynolds launching that. Parents, and particularly moms, I think are going to be the secret weapon, both in this primary and in the general election. Nobody has been a better champion for those folks than me. Interesting. So, columnist Peggy Noonan has a new opinion piece for The Wall Street Journal entitled May Trump Soon Reach His Waterloo. And she writes in part, quote, This weekend I reread Paul Johnson's Napoleon, which came out in 2002, part of his series of brief lives.

Johnson writes of the cult of Napoleon in a way that is now pertinent. The cult of Bonaparte was originally wide, but it did not last. It had power in the moment, but it passed. Reality settled in. History made its judgments. The cultists changed the subject or added nuance when pressed to explain their previous support. Back to now, Chris Christie could easily defeat Joe Biden. So could several of the GOP candidates now in the field. Donald Trump wouldn't for one big reason. His special superpower is that he is the only Republican who will unite and rally the Democratic base and drive independents away. True that. Hello.

A sad thing is that many bright Trump supporters sense this and the case against him, but can't concede it and break away and break from him. This weekend at a party, one of Mr. Trump's New York supporters, a former officeholder, quickly made his way to me to speak of his hero. He referred to the Abraham Accords and the economy and said, surely you can admit he was a good president. He was all wound up, so I spoke slowly. I will tell you what he is. He is a bad man. I know it. And if I were a less courteous person, I would say that, you know, it, too. He was startled, didn't reply and literally took a step back because I think he does know it.

Political cults are never good. Often rise, always pass. May it this time come sooner rather than later. It's interesting. It's a great piece. And this time, this will pass. This too shall pass. We're not exactly sure when. But when it passes, it will pass fairly quickly. John Meacham said that for quite some time, that when it passes, he will not slowly fade away. It will be a precipitous drop. But we're not exactly sure what time that will be. I will say, and I'm curious because you also live in a red state surrounded by Trump supporters or former Trump supporters, Republicans. I must say, I keep being surprised by the number of former Trump supporters who voted for him in 2016 and some who even voted for him in 2020. You do not like the man.

I mean, these are the people told me I'm voting for him in 16, I'm voting for him 20. And they're exhausted by him. They're angered by him. They're angered. And they don't know where to go. And they don't know exactly where to go. They don't really know this DeSantis guy. But it's very interesting. There's one of the few times in my life that overwhelming anecdotal evidence is just not matching what I'm seeing in poll numbers. The overwhelming anecdotal evidence that I'm seeing is I just haven't met a Trump voter who voted for him in 2016 that says they're going to vote for him in 2024.

They're angry. They've had enough. He exhausts them and they don't want to lose anymore. Yes. They don't. But here's the great question about whether this movement is defeated and does become part of the dust heap of history and whether we can talk about it in terms of autopsy as opposed to unfolding reality, is are enough Americans willing to vote against Trump no matter what? And that means Republicans in a general election. Are they willing to vote for the Democratic nominee with whom they may disagree on issues of policy, but whom they believe to be fundamentally constitutionalist. Do you want a constitutional president, which is what President Biden is, however imperfect he may be, or do you want a proven insurrectionist? And when framed that way, it seems to me that tax policy and EVs kind of take their proper place in the scope of things. But that's what,

to me, the great question here is, is there a principled partisanship in the country? Will people, can people put the Constitution ahead of particular policy issues? And if they can't, if, as Peggy wrote about, if those, if the people who still sort of say, oh, he was a great president and he's better than Biden, you know, whatever story they tell themselves, if that's the story they tell themselves all the way to the ballot box in 24, then I'm not sure this is over. If they can, then it probably is. But it's a pretty straightforward question. Do you believe in the Constitution more than 48 months of policy? Yeah. And at least it's interesting. The people we were talking to this weekend just said, well, we stayed home in 2020. Are we going to have to stay home in 2024? Said, well, what what what do you think around DeSantis?

What do you think about Chris Christie? We just haven't heard that much about them. And it's interesting that that right now Trump does eclipse them all. That's the one name they've heard. And a lot of Republicans just again, not in a good way, not going to vote for him. But they may not vote for anybody. They may just stay home again. And again, as we've been saying for some time, that spells doom for Republicans next fall. Joe, I would argue, though, that Biden needs those Republicans. He needs a slight sliver. Yeah. Those, you know, five to six percent of never Trumpers of disgruntled Republicans to vote for him to propel himself to victory.

It is going to come down to one hundred thousand votes in Arizona, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania at the end of the day. And the way that John Meacham is framing what the narrative should be. Are you going to vote for an insurrectionist? Are you anti-constitution? Is the framing that Democrats should adopt. Right now, I see Republicans who are creating narratives. They're creating narratives about a Biden crime family. They're creating narratives about a stolen election. They're creating narratives that just aren't being combated with the same strength because Democrats are talking about policy, which I love policy. But if you want to win, you've got to talk about where the conversation is.

All right, John Meacham, thank you so much for being on this morning. We appreciate it. And coming up on Morning Joe, a look inside the House GOP's plan to go after FBI and the DOJ. Our next guest reports it goes far beyond just trying to impeach Attorney General Merrick Garland. And speaking of House Republicans, it's still not clear where Marjorie Taylor Greene stands with the far right. Freedom Caucus. We'll go through those. Is she out? Is she in? I don't know. We'll go through all those developments and much more ahead on Morning Joe. All right. Welcome back to Morning Jail. Happy Monday at 6.47 a.m. on the East Coast.

Yeah. 3.47 a.m. out West where people are just waking up right now doing their yoga. What's that drink that they sent us? That cuckoo, whatever. Kombucha? Something like that. That's what they're drinking. I don't know.

I don't think. I think they're probably still sleeping on the West Coast. I drink sweet tea. No, no, no. People like Ari. Is that all you wanted to say? Ari's up. No, no.

It's very interesting. We were showing the Capitol. I got distracted by what they drink on the West Coast. And it's like House Republicans, they work so hard day in and day out to make Democrats' lives easier politically. Right. So now they're, what are they doing? Now they're attacking America's premier law enforcement agency. They're attacking the very people who protect us from the Islamic terrorists that they've warned us about for so many years. They're attacking the same people that try to ship fentanyl into this country and kill our children. Those same people who are trying to stop that every single day that stop drug

gangs every single day that break up white collar crime rings and, and people who are trying to steal your parents and grandparents money on telephones with all of these scams and all these organ. That's what the FBI does every day. And the DOJ, of course, helps as well. But Republicans, they're at war with them. Because they actually tried to stop Donald Trump from stealing nuclear secrets and keeping them from the United States government. So I think the Democrats should send them a big basket of edible flowers or something. It's specifically House Republicans who are reportedly considering taking action against the FBI and Department of Justice.

According to a new report from Politico, quote, that push will become a cornerstone of Republicans agenda in a chaotic back half of the year. Speaker Kevin McCarthy has already threatened to explore impeaching Attorney General Merrick Garland. Conservatives have also gone after FBI Director Christopher Wray, weighing whether to force a vote to recommend booting him from office. Additionally, some conservatives who believe the agencies have targeted Republicans are eager to cut the law agency's budgets. For more, let's bring in the reporter behind this piece, Politico's Jordan Carney,

also with us, NBC News Capitol Hill correspondent, Ali Vitale, who took on way too early duties this morning. Thank you, Ali. Jordan, we'll start with you. What is the strategy these House Republicans are taking? Yeah, so you're going to see this sort of play out in three ways going into the back half the year. This week, Christopher Wray is going to be before the House Judiciary Committee testifying, so that'll kind of give us a flavor. And then they've got investigations. They've got the impeachment chatter around the attorney general.

They are looking at using the government funding legislation that's going to kind of come to a head as we head towards the back half the year. And then they've got the surveillance debate, which has some bipartisan overtones, but you're going to see it be a vehicle for some of the party's frustrations with the FBI in particular. And, you know, Ali, it's fascinating. We were just talking earlier in the show about how these House Republicans are trashing U.S. generals now. Some are trashing U.S. troops. Now they're trashing the FBI. They're trashing the DOJ all because of Donald Trump's perceived slights from these agencies and in the FBI's case, because they actually had to go in to get the nuclear secrets and the other military secrets that he had stolen from the from the U.S. government are I would guess there has to be some consternation among other House Republicans and certainly among Senate Republicans in this war against law enforcement.

Yeah, there definitely are, because we're both old enough to remember when Republicans were going after Democrats for defund the police. And here you have some people saying that they should be defunding either prosecutors or the FBI in some cases. I mean, this is now so topsy-turvy with the way that Republicans are talking about law enforcement that certainly I have heard it from moderate Republicans who have to defend tough seats in the House or in the Senate that this is not where they want their focus to be. Instead, you talk to Senate Republicans who say they want this to be a conversation about how they've stopped various points of the Biden agenda, but also found ways to work with him on things going forward. That's not

a focus on impeaching Christopher Wray or Attorney General Merrick Garland. Instead, that's a focus on permitting reform. That's a focus on some of the things that we'll see coming down the pipeline in the Defense Authorization Act. That's where the focus wants to be on the Senate side of the building. But on the House Republican side of the building, we're instead seeing the focus on more of the red meat stuff for the base that we often talk about out on the campaign trail with Trump and all of the other 2024 Republican presidential contenders, which is continuing to fight the culture wars, pushing forward on things like abortion restrictions. And then, of course, that's nothing to say of the impeachment battles. I would also note that this week, as they come back to town, we have to figure out exactly what

you guys were talking about earlier, which is, is Marjorie Taylor Greene in or out of the House Freedom Caucus? And what's stunning about that is that the Freedom Caucus is so powerful in this current Republican conference. And they're basically kicking her out, A, because she had some colorful conversations with some of her colleagues like Lauren Boebert, but B, because she's almost too helpful of an ally to Kevin McCarthy, who is technically on paper the leader of this entire conference, but is out of step, of course, with where the Freedom Caucus wants him to be. So I guess bring your kombucha for this week in Washington. Wow. There you go.

That's it. She's on it. She's been to Silicon Valley. She's on it. She's been to Silicon Valley. So, David Ignatius, it is fascinating and bizarre that these House Republicans, and it's what I was talking about in the Atlantic column, have really, they've switched sides with leftists from the 60s. They hate the FBI. They hate the Department of Justice. They call they and their allies actually call the chairman of the Joint Chiefs a stupid pig. If that doesn't sound like something shouted by a group that's trying to levitate the Pentagon in 1968, 69, they've really they've changed sides. And this is such a political loser. You do wonder why Kevin McCarthy or others can't step forward and say, guys back and women back off. This is this is going to cost us control

of the House. Joe, I think you know the answer better, better than I. Your Republican Party has become a populist, anti-elitist party, and it wants to blame everything on elitist politicians who got into us, into this mess, on blue state Democrats and all the things that they do wrong. It wants to focus on cultural issues. President Biden is a president who actually is trying to make the political system work, passing infrastructure legislation, getting things done that, you know, affect our ability to make semiconductor chips and our ability to compete in the world economy. He didn't get much credit for that. One thing I find when I look at the polling is that Americans on both sides of the aisle say we're going in the wrong direction as a country. And to get back to the way we

started this hour, I think your article in The Atlantic is right in arguing the person who can lead the country has got to be the person who says things aren't that bad in America. We are not as crippled and broken a country as you hear from Republicans and sometimes from Democrats, too. We're actually a pretty strong country. That message, weirdly, in this time of division, it seems very, very difficult to sound. And I think that's part of our problem. People don't see that don't see that clear middle way through American life where things aren't going in the wrong direction. So so, Jordan, how how will this play out? Do we do we expect Republicans, House Republicans to try to slash the FBI's budget? And when they do, do they expect Senate Republicans to go along? Because I can't think of more than three or four

who would. I mean, I think this is sort of some of the concerns we're hearing from more establishment, more moderate House Republicans is that they are spending a lot of political energy right now trying to get these cuts through their bills, which they need to pass just with 218 Republican votes. So it's sort of an internal discussion. But they they'll say, you know, these are never going to make it past a Democratic controlled Senate. They're never going to get Biden's signature. So do we end up in a very similar situation you saw House Republicans in after the debt ceiling, where the right flank doesn't vote for these bills? They're mad whenever the

deal is finally made. And are they back in sort of a situation they found themselves in where the floor was shut down for a week earlier this year? Politico's Jordan Carney, thank you so much for your reporting this morning And for coming on Jordan's right There's going to be battle in the House But Mitch McConnell and John Thune And other Republicans

They're not going to Try to kick out Christopher Wray Or slash law enforcement They never will It's just like the Trump conversation That Peggy Noonan had with the voter. And they know it. It's just like the Trump conversation that Peggy Newton had with the voter. I mean, they know this is. So this morning, it's still not clear if Marjorie Taylor Greene is or is not a member of the

House Freedom Caucus. It's been more than two weeks since members of the far right group voted to remove the Georgia congresswoman. Since then, Greene has reportedly not responded to multiple attempts by caucus chair Scott Perry and other top members to communicate with her and her staff. Is this like a scene out of Seinfeld? Ali Batali. Where George is fired, but he never acknowledges it. She's too young. I'm not.

No, I know exactly that episode. Oh, my God. So true. That was kind of smart of George. Is this a Costanza like strategy? Yeah. Is she Costanza-ing the House Freedom Caucus? I don't know. I mean, this has sort of been like one of the most vexing stories over the last two weeks of recess. It's like taking advantage of the fact that not everyone is in the same Capitol complex to stop something from happening that eventually is still going to happen, which is being kicked out of the House Freedom Caucus. And it sort of goes back to what we were saying before, just the dynamics of this Congress are so fascinating. Now that Republicans have the power of the gavel, we're even watching the far right side of this conference start to splinter

off. I mean, again, I didn't see Marjorie Taylor Greene ever being a tight ally of Kevin McCarthy, but you see her there on the screen from during the speaker battle, from during the debt ceiling battle. This is something where she's paid a tax with the people who she sort of came up with in the Freedom Caucus, the Lauren Boeberts and the Matt Gaetzes. That splintering has been really fascinating to watch. And I think in some ways it weakens the negotiating power that they have, because they've done well as a cohesive block in the Freedom Caucus, being able to be a consistent thorn in the side of Republican leaders. The more of them that splinter off for getting what they need for back home,

that does become a problem for the Freedom Caucus. But look, for Marjorie Taylor Greene, I think she's trying to look more towards the future. I do think it's pretty stunning that she didn't get kicked out for any of the Jewish space lasers comments or any of the other incendiary things she said. But she's getting kicked out for working with McCarthy. That's so weird. And by the way, Jason Alexander is going to be on the show Friday. I'm so excited. So speaking of Costanza on Friday on Morning Joe.

NBC's Ali Batali, thank you very much. We'll see you again tomorrow morning. Thank you, Ali. Oh, yeah. Way too early. Really appreciate it. It is, oh, look, it's the top of the hour. The first one went so quickly.

So quickly. Look at this. Only three more to go on this Monday, July 10th. David Ignatius, Reverend Al Sharpton and Elise Jordan are still with us. And joining the conversation, we have U.S. national editor at The Financial Times. Ed Luce joins us. So our top story this hour, President Biden is now on his way to Windsor Castle after wrapping up a meeting this morning with UK Prime Minister Rishi Sunak. It comes ahead of this week's highly anticipated NATO summit in Lithuania.

Shortly after arriving, President Biden sat down in the garden with Sunak and the two enjoyed some tea, but did not answer questions. Now the president is on his way to meet with newly crowned King Charles at Windsor Castle. The two will participate in a climate discussion later today. Let's bring in from London NBC News correspondent Josh Letterman. Josh, what's the president hoping to get from not only the prime minister, but what's he expecting to talk to the king about? Well, good morning, Joe. This first stop on the president's trip is really the easy part. He had that meeting this morning with Rishi Sunak, the prime minister, a chance to really

show off the close U.S.-U.K. relationship. He talked jokingly about how they've been meeting pretty much once a month. And then in his meeting with the king, it'll be his first opportunity to sit down with the king since he was coronated. They'll do that climate event that Mika mentioned, which is obviously an issue that is close to both of their hearts. It's something that the king, when he was Prince Charles, worked on for years. But really, the hard, difficult work will come after the president wraps up that meeting and heads to Lithuania later in the day today for that NATO summit with a real cloud hanging

over his head over that controversial U.S. decision to send cluster bombs to the Ukrainians. Many of the allies he will be meeting with, they have banned cluster bombs under the Oslo Convention. Some of them have expressed publicly their concerns about the U.S. providing weaponry to Ukraine that has such a tendency to injure or even kill innocent civilians. But then the even more difficult part will become when the allies try to figure out how to deal with this issue of Ukraine's insistence that it should be let soon into the NATO alliance. President Biden speaking on CNN over the weekend about whether he feels Ukraine is ready. Take a listen. I don't think it's ready for membership in NATO. Holding NATO together is really critical.

I don't think there is unanimity in NATO about whether or not to bring Ukraine into the NATO family now at this moment in the middle of a war. When it comes to what will make this a successful foreign trip for President Biden and the allies, there are a few things that come to mind. One, if they are able to find a way to paper over, really come up with a fig leaf of sorts on that issue of Ukraine's NATO membership. There has been talk about maybe offering security assurances to Ukraine in lieu of actual admission, if they are able to at least find some way to signal that Ukraine will eventually be in NATO, if not while they're in the middle of a war with

Russia, if they're able to come up with some real commitments in terms of defense products to Ukraine, those F-16s that the Ukrainians want training on very quickly or other types of security assistance, that could be a win. And finally, President Biden hoping for a breakthrough in the next few days on the issue of letting Sweden into NATO. That was supposed to happen alongside Finland. It did not as a result partially of objections from Hungary and most notably Turkey, with a flurry of diplomacy over the last 24 hours or so, including President Biden speaking with Turkish President Erdogan on Air Force One on the way here. Secretary Blinken has been speaking with his Turkish counterpart. And the NATO Secretary General aims to bring the Swedish and Turkish leaders together

for a joint summit with NATO Secretary General Stoltenberg in Vilnius to try to find a breakthrough that would go a long way to show that the NATO alliance is holding strong and even expanding as we surpass the 500 day mark of this war. Joe and Mika. All right. NBC's Josh Letterman live from Keddie K's perch, as Jonathan Lear called it earlier today. Thank you so much for the report. We greatly appreciate it.