Morning Joe - Morning Joe 7/12/24

Episode Date: July 12, 2024

Biden holds press conference amid calls to end campaign

President Biden continues to dominate the news. Yep, the whispers about him dropping out of the race keep getting louder. They're getting so loud, Biden can almost hear them. We also learned today that some Biden advisors are discussing how to convince him to step aside. That is not going to be easy. Okay, they're thinking about just putting a Klondike bar on a string and pulling it slowly down Pennsylvania Avenue. Come on, let's go. Biden's conference today was a big deal because it was unscripted,

like the whole country got invited to our grandpa's level one improv class. A look at some of the late night shows talking about President Biden last night. The president hoped to overcome that poor debate performance a couple of weeks ago and concerns about his mental acuity with the news conference last night at the close of the NATO summit. He did have some gaffes, but also showed strong command of key issues, particularly on foreign policy. Behind the scenes, though, advisers and close allies are said to be making the case for why he should step aside. We'll go through our new reporting from NBC News. Also on Capitol Hill, more Democratic lawmakers calling on the

president to withdraw from the race over concerns he cannot defeat Donald Trump in November. Good morning. Welcome to Morning Joe. It is Friday, July 12th. I'm Willie Geist. With us, we have the host of Way Too Early, White House Bureau Chief of Politico, Jonathan Lemire, MSNBC contributor Mike Barnicle, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist and associate editor of The Washington Post, Eugene Robinson, and President Emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass. A great group assembled this morning. Our reporters coming in in just a moment. Let's dive right into President Joe Biden's high stakes press conference last night on the final day of this week's NATO summit in Washington. As more members of his own party call for him to exit the race, the president took questions from reporters for nearly an hour yesterday and gave no indication he plans to end his campaign. In fact, the contrary. How the next two weeks go, will that affect your decision?

Or are you fully determined on running in November as the party's nominee? I'm determined on running, but I think it's important that I lay fears by letting them see me out there. I'm going to be going around making the case of the things that I think we have to finish and how we can't afford to lose what we've done or backslide on civil rights, civil liberties, women's rights. That little button we have. Control guns, not girls. I mean, the idea we're sitting around, and that's where Kamala's so good as well. We're sitting around.

More children are killed by the bullet than any other cause of death the United States of America what the hell are we doing what are we doing we got a candidate saying promise the NRA don't worry I'm not going to do anything I'm not going to do anything

we got a Supreme Court that is what you might call the most conservative court in American history I promised the NRA, don't worry, I'm not going to do anything. I'm not going to do anything. You've got a Supreme Court that is what you might call the most conservative court in American history. This is ridiculous. Presidency is the most straining job in the world, and it's 24-7. How can you say you'll be up for that next year, in two years, in four years, given the limits you've acknowledged that you have today? The limits I've acknowledged I have? There's been reporting that you've acknowledged that you need to go to bed earlier and your

evening around eight. That's not true. Look, what I said was, instead of my every day starting at seven and going to bed at midnight, it'd be smarter for me to pace myself a little more. And I said, for example, the 8, 7, 6 stuff, instead of starting the fundraiser at 9 o'clock, start at 8 o'clock. People get to go home by 10 o'clock. That's what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about, and if you look to my schedule since I've since I made that stupid mistake in the campaign, in the debate, I mean, my schedule has been full bore. I've done. Where's where's Trump been riding around his golf cart, filling out his scorecard before he hits the ball? How can you reassure the American people that you won't have more bad nights, whether they be on a debate stage or it's a matter of foreign policy?

Well, I tell you what, the best way to assure them is the way I assure myself. And that is, am I getting the job done? Am I getting the job done? Can you name me somebody who's got more major piece of legislation passed in three and a half years? I got created 2000 jobs just last week. So if I slow down, I can't get the job done. That's a sign that I shouldn't be doing it. But there's no indication of that yet. You earlier explained confidence in your vice president. Yes. If your team came back and showed you data that she would fare better against

former President Donald Trump, would you reconsider your decision to stay in the race? No, unless they came back and said, there's no way you can win. Me. No one's saying that. No poll says that. The president last night speaking for nearly an hour there at that press conference at the end of the NATO summit. So Eugene Robinson, we did have a couple of more Democrats in the House come out just after that press conference and say that Joe Biden needed to step aside despite a performance that I think most people believe was obviously much, much better than the debate performance. He couldn't get much worse than that, but he looked and sounded better last night than he has recently. So what is your sense? Did that do

anything to at least buy him some time? Did that do anything to change minds of people who were worried about him? Well, you know, we'll see how much time it bought him. I mean, Congressman Jim Hines from Connecticut came out with his statement calling on President Biden to step aside minutes after the press conference ended. The press conference itself, I thought, was good. I mean, was was was affirmatively good for Biden in that he showed a mastery of foreign policy that he has exhibited for many years. Little flubs were the same flubs that Joe Biden has been making for 30, 40 years. Nothing to see there. The problem, of course, is that he's trying to unring the bell that was rung in the debate.

And that's a very difficult task. The other problem is that his numbers, you know, the Washington Post poll that came out yesterday showed him tied with Donald Trump nationally. That was kind of an outlier. Most of the polls, respectable polls, have him a bit behind. The average of polls has him three points behind. And in 2016 and in 2020, when we got to election day there, Trump voters showed up who hadn't really been found by the pollsters. He did a bit better than predicted. Four years ago at this point, Biden was ahead of Trump by nine points. So those are also data points that that don't inspire a lot of confidence among Democrats, especially Democrats on the Hill who are worried about their own races.

So we had just actually a few moments ago, a new poll came out. We talked about that Washington Post poll yesterday that showed the president tied with former President Trump. This morning, it's an NPR Marist poll that shows Joe Biden up two points on Donald Trump in a national race. That's within the margin of error. Of course, though, the concern, Richard Haass, is in the swing states where Donald Trump has widened his lead a little bit in places that, frankly, that Joe Biden has to win. There's no option anymore. The margin of error is so small. He has to win places like Michigan and Wisconsin and Pennsylvania.

Obviously, there's no other path to victory. You have called over the last couple of weeks, Richard, for the president to step aside to make way for another candidate because you don't believe that Joe Biden can beat Donald Trump and the stakes are too high. What did you make of what you saw last night? Did it do anything to change your mind? Short answer is no, but let me tell you how I got there, Willie. I thought, like you all, the president did a really good job last night on foreign policy. That was a sophisticated, thoughtful, nuanced conversation of some really complex issues. Let's just say that very few people in public or private life could have sustained that kind of a conversation. The problem was, though,

there were still some flubs, which people have focused on. He still comes off. The affect is still someone who's old. The voice is what it is. The walk is what it is. Also, foreign policy is not a subject that most Americans wake up ready to focus on. But I think he probably strengthened the odds, not settled it, but increased the odds he will be the candidate. But I think he probably strengthened the odds, not settled it, but increased the odds he will be the candidate. But I think he's still got five weeks to the convention, so that pot still boils. The real question to me is, should he be the candidate? And there, I still have doubts, I'll be honest with you. He can't do anything about the fact he's an incumbent in an era in which virtually every incumbent recently has lost. If you look again at India,

South Africa, Britain, France, it's a very, very rough time to be an incumbent. The issues that have hurt him still hurt him, given the history of the border and immigration, given Gaza, even if we are perhaps getting near some progress there, food prices are still higher than they were three and a half years ago. And the age issue is just one that you can never, ever, ever put behind you 100 percent. He's always one flub away, one trip away. And if the whole goal is to make this a referendum on Donald Trump, I don't think he's there. And to me, I think other candidates on the Democratic side would be better positioned to make this a referendum on Donald Trump. I'm not sure

how Joe Biden ever turns the corner. So this is not a referendum on on him. And if it is a referendum on him, he's not going to be the next president of the United States. Jonathan, the flubs that Richard's referring to President Biden referred to Vice President Harris as Vice President Trump mistakenly. And then earlier in the day, while standing with President Zelensky, introduced him as President Putin before quickly correcting it and making a joke about it. So there were those moments. Yes, he was better than the debate. That's a pretty low bar for a president to clear. And the point that Congressman Himes made last night and others have made is we simply can't go on like this as Democrats and as a country, which is holding your breath every time the president speaks or goes out in public, that he believes, Congressman Himes, the stakes are so high that if Donald Trump becomes president,

if Republicans win the House and the Senate, if there are more Supreme Court justices appointed by Donald Trump, the country has changed for generations. And many Democrats saying publicly now, many, many of them saying privately, they just don't think in the polls show at this point that Joe Biden won't win in a match up with with Donald Trump. So how is the White House, the people you talk to every day, feeling after yesterday's press conference? Well, first of all, fair or not, every time President Biden does have a public appearance, he will be under an intense scrutiny, although those in the White House believe Donald Trump should be as well. Those in the Biden campaign and the White House definitely feeling better late last night,

this morning. They have in a couple of weeks. They do think the president, yes, a few flubs aside, and there was panic over text message when he did make those mistakes. But mostly feel like he was good last night. He was in command. He had good control, as Richard said, of foreign policy issues, complex foreign policy issues. But also I just thought he looked strong. He looked vigorous. He looked like someone who could handle this campaign. But you're right. The Democratic worry continues. We'll need to see how these next couple of days play out. The president has a campaign event in Michigan today. That'll be closely watched. He sits down with our friend Lester Holt Monday for another wide ranging interview. Let's see how he does there. There are still some powerful forces in the Democratic Party that think that the party

needs to turn the page. It's just simply too soon to say whether or not he has stemmed the bleeding. We should expect more defections from the Democrats in the days to come. And a narrowing path. The Biden campaign put out a memo yesterday where they acknowledged the president's standing really did take a hit after the debate. They still see paths to win. They acknowledge it kind of has to be through Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin. That might now be his only path to victory. And Mike Barnicle, we also shouldn't just shouldn't lose sight of what a moment last night was, a moment that I don't know that we've ever seen before in modern American political history, where a sitting president had a primetime news conference to defend his mental and physical

abilities while trying to stave off a mutiny from his own party. Yeah. What's amazing to me is the amount of attention we pay in the media, all of us, to the flubs. You know, Vice President Trump instead of Vice President Harris, things like that. That stuff has come with the dinner with Joe Biden for 40 years. And we regard it each and every time he makes a flub as it's shocking. It's not shocking. What's truly shocking in terms of balance, and you referenced it, is Donald Trump's, not flubs, his incendiary rhetoric. Rhetoric aimed at dividing the country, at turning one group of people against another group of people, of threatening institutions like NATO, of threatening a country like Ukraine, things like that. We pay less attention to his rhetoric than we do. Oh,

my God, he called her Vice President Trump. No, we have to get our act together and balance this thing out. Well, we do, as you know very well, Mike, for four long hours every morning, we talk about Donald Trump and everything he proposes and all the damage he's done and could do further. And we're going to do a deep dive in just a few minutes into Project 2025 as well. Let's bring in NBC News Washington managing editor Carol Lee and NBC News Capitol Hill correspondent Ali Vitale. Good morning to you both. Carol, I want to start with you and your new reporting from you and your colleagues here at NBC News, the headline of which is this. No one involved in the effort thinks he

has a path. Biden insiders say the writing is on the wall. You say the set of Democrats who think Biden should reconsider his decision to stay in the race has grown now to include his own aides, operatives and officials tasked with guiding his campaign to victory. What more can you tell us this morning, Carol? Well, really, what we learned in talking to a number of sources is that there are people who are around the president who are it's not just lawmakers outside of the president's circle there it's not just democrats out in states or party leaders it is people who are actually working on the president's re-election effort who privately are saying after two weeks since the debate that this just isn't something that he can turn around that their view is they're looking at

numbers they're looking at the money from donors that's dropping off. They're already reassessing to downgrade what their expectations are for bringing in money fundraising for this month. They're already cutting back on certain fundraisers in terms of the number of people who are going to be there and how much money they're going to raise. So they're looking at this whole set of data and saying that this is not a winnable situation and that this is not something that the president can turn around and believe that he needs to get out of the race. And they also believe that he needs to do so rather quickly, that it's not something that can continue to drag out. And I think when you're talking about the president's press conference last night, what people like this are thinking is, you know, this is putting the president out there is something that the White House has to do.

This is what Democrats say they want. But it's as much part of their solution as it is their problem, because when Democrats are watching what the president is doing, there's anxiety. There's like hanging on his every word, waiting for something to happen and thinking to themselves, like, how did it come to this? How are we judging this president and whether he can go forward on him doing a basic thing that comes with the job, which is holding a news conference? And then they're asking the question of, is this sustainable? How can he he has to get it right every time for the next four months. And that is not something that Democrats, including people who are working and like the president and support him and want him to win this race, they just don't believe that he has the capacity to do over the next four months. And they don't think that this is winnable. And you add in maybe a slowdown in fundraising, some of the swing state polls tipping toward Donald Trump. And as you say, the aides in your piece say it's unsustainable. You also, Carol, matched some reporting yesterday from The New York Times,

suggested the Biden campaign was quietly looking at head to head matchups with Kamala Harris, the vice president of the United States, against Donald Trump. What more can you tell us about that? Well, this is the first time that they've done this sort of polling, and it obviously comes at a precarious time. The timing is pretty interesting. Now, what officials are saying is that this is they're doing this because the former President Trump has started to attack the vice president, that it's based on that. But putting the vice president up against the former president in a hypothetical head to head matchup is a is a significant thing. And whatever that data shows, if you if you draw the line back to what President Biden said last night in his press conference, where he said, you know, if he was asked if he was shown data that showed his vice president could beat former President Trump,

would he reconsider? And he you know And he said he would look at data and that if he was told that he couldn't win, then maybe he would consider dropping out. But nobody said that. All of that aside, the idea here is that this is something that's coming at a time when there are huge questions about whether the president's going to stay in the race. It's the president's own campaign doing that. I can tell you there are some frustrations that this got out. They don't like this. It's not a narrative that they want out there, but they're doing it. Yeah. And just to add to Carol's excellent reporting, Willie, the polling for about Vice President Harris, yes, could be interpreted as a hint and possible change at the top of the ticket. The other angle, though, and some have

said is that it could be to determine that Vice President Harris, per polling, wouldn't beat Donald Trump. And that would actually strengthen President Biden's argument to remain atop the ticket. And we know there are portions of the Biden inner circle that firmly believes the vice president can't do it, though they certainly feel like she has grown as a candidate in recent months and they're a valuable ally. They're just not convinced that she can beat President Biden. And certainly there are a President Trump, former President Trump. And there's certainly a number of Democrats and officials who do and some even linked to the Biden campaign who are openly questioning about whether or not he can continue. But to be clear, his immediate family and his inner circle, those advisors who make the big decisions around the

president, they're all firmly convinced that he should stay in. And really, they still think he can win. Yeah, that's what we saw last night in that press conference. There was no wiggle room, at least last night from the president, about whether or not he's going to stay in the race. He's in, he says. So, Ali, let's swing up to Capitol Hill, the place you cover every day. The mood of Democrats, as we mentioned, a couple more Democratic defections yesterday from President Biden after the press conference saying it's time to move on. It's time for him to step aside and let's get Vice President Harris or a different candidate in there to beat Donald Trump. They say not because they don't admire and respect Joe Biden and his administration and the work he's done, but because they simply think he can't beat Donald Trump. So what else are you hearing in the hours after that press conference last night? I think this conversation for the last 20 minutes hits on something that's so central to the main point on Capitol Hill,

which is I haven't talked to anyone who's a staffer, who is an operative, who's an elected, who doesn't say some form of the sentence. I love Joe Biden, but those electability concerns are so palpable. This panic has been so protracted. There was just a real sense on the Hill yesterday, I think, of despair, both with the people who have come forward, like Senator Peter Welsh, to say, I think he needs to step down, all the way to members who have privately expressed their concerns but don't want to come forward publicly, either because they don't think that it's going to be persuasive to the president, so why bother? Or because they just don't know if they're there yet. They have such concerns about who, if not Biden, can beat Donald Trump. Because again, all roads lead to Democrats stressing the need to avoid a second

Trump presidency because of things like Project 2025, because of the role that Trump has played and takes credit for on stripping women of abortion protections and reproductive health care access. But I think what Congressman Jim Himes, the head of the Intel Committee, says when he explained why he came out in the minutes after that press conference, why he's coming out and saying Biden shouldn't be the nominee, this is part of what he says. And then there's one other thing he said that I noticed that I think is such an important piece. Listen here first. I've been with the president on a number of occasions and I have looked at those numbers. No president has ever been reelected with the disapproval ratings that our current president, love him as we do, has. And so I will not stand

silent as I see a trajectory to an electoral loss that leads to the presidency of Donald Trump and all that he has promised. I've done a lot of political campaigns, Alex, and the one attribute of almost every single losing campaign, and I've seen hundreds of them, is that right up until the moment that the numbers are in and you've lost, you believe that you will win. You guys also touched on this, and it's something that the congressman later said. It's the idea that everything that President Biden does between the debate and Election Day is going to be picked apart, scrutinized. Any mistake will be much more massive. And that's something that Congressman Haim said, this idea that you can't just jump from presidential appearance to presidential appearance with an entire party weighing whether or not this is the moment that they should all jump ship.

And it's the question that I've been asking lawmakers. How much longer can you guys do this without utterly kneecapping the man who right now has decided he is your nominee? And I have to tell you, none of them have answered that question. I asked top Democratic House member Hakeem Jeffries yesterday, how much longer can you let your caucus continue to just air their grievances and drip by drip come out and say they don't think Biden should be the nominee? And he just said it's a constructive family conversation. That's been the line all week. But none of these lawmakers want to grade the president on a curve. And I can bet you voters don't either. As we've been saying this week, Allie, this is people of good faith who want one thing in the Democratic Party, and that is to beat Donald Trump. Congressman Himes is a guy we respect a lot. Obviously, a very smart guy comes on our show all the time. He doesn't believe Donald Trump can be defeated by President Biden. Others say,

well, Joe Biden is the guy who beat Donald Trump and he can do it again, despite all the shortcomings that we see out in the open. So is there some moment and who is the person? Is it Hakeem Jeffries? Is it Nancy Pelosi? Is it former President Obama behind the scenes? Are there meetings or their conversations? Is there a moment where the party comes together and said, this is our decision. This is the plan. We're either standing with the president or the vast majority of us believe he should step aside. Does that moment ever come? It really needs to. But I think the goalposts and the timeline keeps moving because first it was, all right, his first appearance after the debate. Let's see how that goes. Then it was the Stephanopoulos interview. Then it became, let's see how the press conference goes last night. Now it's become, all right, well, the RNC, the Republican convention is next week.

Democrats come back to the Hill, certainly by then. If Democrats haven't said all they need to say by then, then we'll have to see what happens. There is this moving goalpost and this moving metric. And I think the thing that's so hard is it's an unquantifiable thing. Every lawmaker that I have talked to, I have asked the same question that you're asking me, which is, OK, when you say do more, what does that mean? When you need to see something, what does that look like? And there's no tangible answer to this, because really what you're solving for here is vibes, mood. People don't feel good. There is such a sense of despair that has been hanging over the Capitol as I've been working in the halls the last few days.

And that is not something that you can solve by data. It's not something that makes it's a feeling. It's not a fact. Right. And so I think that's what people are looking for. And I have to say, I mean, you look at the fact that top Biden campaign officials went to Capitol Hill to meet with very nervous senators yesterday. And I know senators left that meeting saying, oh, well, they asked us not to leak. We're not going to give details. But the only thing that we did end up hearing about was the fact that it got heated when it came to pressing the Biden officials on what a path forward looks like. And I can tell you, I mean, we all know the way that lawmakers work. If that meeting had gone really well, they would have said that it went really well. And that's not what we heard in the halls. There were people who said, yes, I felt good going in or I was a little nervous going

in. I feel a little bit better now. The reality is this race was always going to be close. It sort of feels honestly like 2020 when all I heard from voters was, OK, I just want the best person to beat Trump, the best person to beat Trump. Biden got the benefit of the doubt on that. And it's open to see whether or not he gets it again here. And the truth is, no one knows what happened. And you can't know. Both ways are a gamble. Staying with President Biden might be a gamble. The unknown obviously is a gamble. NBC's Ali Vitale and Carolee, outstanding reporting as usual from both of you. Thanks so much for being here this morning. Still ahead on Morning Joe, we'll dig into what President Biden says he accomplished at the NATO summit this week.

Compare that with the split screen of Hungary's authoritarian leader, Viktor Orban, visiting Donald Trump last night at Mar-a-Lago. You're watching Morning Joe. We're back in 90 seconds. For those who thought NATO's time had passed, they got a rude awakening when Putin invaded Ukraine. Some of the oldest and deepest fears in Europe roared back to life. Because once again, a murderous madman was on the march. But this time, no one cowered in appeasement, especially the United States. In February, some of you remember, I warned the world that the invasion was imminent. I rallied a coalition of 50 nations from Europe to Asia to help Ukraine defend itself.

My foreign policy, many foreign policy experts thought, as Putin amassed Russian forces just 100 miles north of Kiev, the capital of Ukraine. But he thought he Putin thought it was a mother home of Russia. The capital would fall in less than a week. But Ukrainian people backed by a coalition to help build stopped them. Today, Kiev still stands and NATO stands. Ukrainian people backed by a coalition to help build stopped them. Today, Kiev still stands and NATO stands stronger than it has ever been. Meanwhile, my predecessor has made it clear he has no commitment to NATO. He's made it clear that he would feel no obligation to honor Article 5.

He's already told Putin, and I quote, do whatever the hell you want. In fact, the day after Putin invaded Ukraine, here's what he said. It was genius. It was wonderful. Some of you forgot that, but that's exactly what he said. But I made it clear a strong NATO is essential to American security. And I believe the obligation of Article 5 is sacred. President Biden speaking at length last night about NATO and its strengthening under his administration that was at the close of this week's summit commemorating the 75th anniversary of NATO. Meanwhile, Hungarian Prime Minister

Viktor Orban traveled to Florida to meet with Donald Trump. Orban posted this photo on social media last night, writing, we discussed ways to make peace. The good news of the day, he's going to solve it. Trump also made note of the meeting on true social posting. There must be peace and quickly. This was Orban's second time visiting Mar-a-Lago since March. He has publicly endorsed Donald Trump for president, saying Trump could bring an end to the war in Ukraine, though he does not specify how. Orban's visit came just days after he traveled to Moscow to meet with Vladimir Putin and to Beijing to meet with Xi Jinping. Richard Haass, can we start first with who Victor

Orban is for our viewers? He's an authoritarian leader, but why it's so significant that he would travel from Beijing and Moscow directly to Mar-a-Lago? Victor Orban is significant, Willie, for two reasons. One is domestically, if you look at what he's done inside of Hungary, he has dismantled some of the fabric of Hungarian democracy and civil society. So he represents what's called illiberal democracy. And a lot of people see it as a harbinger, almost a model for what a Donald Trump would do if given the chance here in terms of weaponizing or politicizing the organs of government for his own personal purposes, for changing the balance between government and society and all that. And then secondly, Orban is a model in a second way in his foreign policy.

He also does the authoritarian romance, whether it's China or Russia. And he's been remarkably, for all the members of NATO, he has been by far, by far the most sympathetic to Putin, almost a neutral between the West and Putin, or even slightly leaning towards neutral. And again, who does that sound like? It sounds like Donald Trump. And you look at a lot of the people in Trump world, they have all sorts of ties to Hungary, organizationally and personally. So if you want to get a glimpse of a Trumpian future, what he would do here, what he would do there in foreign policy, I think Viktor Orban is the place to look. That's why it's so significant. So could you spell that out a little more,

the threat to the existing order, to what President Biden and NATO are actually trying to do in Ukraine to save Ukraine. Just offer that one photo, Viktor Orban with Donald Trump in Mar-a-Lago, the threat that that poses to the existing order. Look, the only way for Ukraine, look, take it one step back. The president said what I think is important last night, two and a half years ago, when Russia went into Ukraine in February of 2022. Here we are two and a half years later. This has been a remarkable, remarkable accomplishment. Essentially, Ukraine has stood up and fought the Russians to a stalemate

with American and European help. Nobody thought this was possible. The question is whether they're going to continue to be able to do that. We saw what happened when the House Republicans cut off aid. So the real question is, can we persuade Vladimir Putin that time is not his friend? If Putin thinks the time is his friend, the West will grow short in support of Ukraine. Putin will keep going on. And his goals aren't just territorial. The president was right, let's say. He wants to eradicate Ukraine as a Western-oriented Slavic country. Putin hates the idea of Ukraine as an alternative model for a Slavic country

that's liberal, with ties to NATO, with ties to the EU. So his goals are much more than territorial. We have to convince him that time is not a trend, that we're going to stand by Ukraine with as much as it takes for as long as it takes so Putin cannot eradicate it. And what's at question now, because of people like Orban and obviously Trump, is whether that will be the case. So nothing's going to happen before the American election.

But if Trump wins, then yes, Putin's going to say, OK, why compromise? Why think about it? I'm just going to press ahead. And the issue then is whether Donald Trump as a president would give ultimatum to Zelensky and others that they couldn't accept. Essentially saying you have got to agree to, like, for example, that you'd never be a member of NATO. You've got to give up all your territorial claims here and so forth.

So this would be a real crisis for Ukraine, for the West, for NATO. And that's why this is so important. Eugene Robinson, Donald Trump always makes a big show of his affinity for authoritarian leaders, whether it's Vladimir Putin or Viktor Orban. It's aspirational for him. He wishes the American president had the powers that those men have inside their countries. And if you read Project 2025, which we're going to get into in a moment, he may just get them depending on how this election goes. It almost goes without saying that there's been so much focus on style at that press conference last night. It goes without saying that Donald Trump could not for a moment go into the

kind of detail that President Biden went into last night about, say, China or manufacturing in South Korea or the war in Ukraine or European munitions. So there's a lot of focus on how he did, that he talked slow and all that. And that's all fair game with concerns about his age. But in terms of flu a coherent foreign policy, it's the wrong one. It's absolutely the wrong one. I mean, who do you want determining the future contours of the Atlantic alliance and more largely the world order? Do you want Donald Trump, Viktor Orban, Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping being the architects of that future or not? I mean, that's kind of the question in terms of international relations. and with Xi in their vision of this sort of multipolar world where Russia has a sphere of influence that includes the Slavic countries and their cutoff from Europe. It is not only a giant step backwards for the world, but kind of a step into the unknown. It destabilizes

NATO. Our Western European allies don't agree with this vision. And it's really, really dangerous. That's part of what is at stake in this election and why it's so important. We heard this week many times that NATO leaders bracing themselves now for the possibility of another Trump administration, Trump proofing the alliance so that he cannot tear it down. Gene, stay with us, please. Richard Haass, I was going to try to lighten things up, make a joke about the Yankees, but I can't even muster a smile, I'm afraid. It's bleak. Although the Orioles are helping us out, we're still only two games out. Willie, I appreciate the thought. The fact that the Red Sox are as close as they are,

given where we work here, that's really depressing. Come on, snap out of it. It's going to be harder and harder to come in here on in the mornings that's all i can say red sox 10 games over 500 guys you thought they were going to finish in last place and tear down the organization 10 games over 500 it pains me to say it but they look pretty good this year all right president emeritus of the council on foreign relations richard haas richard thanks so much as always coming up next a closer look at Donald Trump's ties to the far-right agenda known as project 2025 we'll get into the details of it when Morning Joe comes right back do you think our democracy is under siege based on this court do you think democracy

is under siege based on project 2025 do you think he means what he says when he says he's going to do away with the civil service, eliminate the Department of Education? Make sure, I mean, we've never been here before. And that's the other reason why I didn't, you say, hand off to another generation. I've got to finish this job. I've got to finish this job because there's so much at stake. President Biden mentioning Project 2025 at last night's news conference. His campaign increasingly has tried to connect Donald Trump with Project 2025. It's a 900 plus page policy roadmap from the conservative think tank, the Heritage Foundation. The proposal packed with

far right agenda items, including abolishing the Department of Education, severe cuts to Medicaid. It says health and human services no longer should consider abortion as a form of health care. It expands deportation powers for the president and also would expand presidential powers elsewhere significantly. For example, independent agencies like the Department of Justice would answer almost entirely to the president. Donald Trump has tried to distance himself from Project 2025, posting online last week he knows nothing about it or who is behind it. You'll see in a moment why that's not true. He doubled down in a post yesterday claiming he had nothing to do with Project 2025. But many of Trump's key allies have been directly involved.

In fact, Project 2025 is staffed by more than 200 former officials of the Trump administration. The former president even spoke about the group's plans at a dinner sponsored by the Heritage Foundation in April of 2022. Because our country is going to hell. The critical job of institutions such as Heritage is to lay the groundwork. And Heritage does such an incredible job at that. This is a great group, and they're going to lay the groundwork and detail plans for exactly what our movement will do and what your movement will do when the American people give us a colossal mandate to save America. And that's coming.

That's coming. Former President Trump speaking to the Heritage Foundation. That was in April of 2022, just over two years ago. Let's bring in NBC News correspondent Vaughn Hilliard. He's been reporting on Donald Trump's ties to Project 2025. Also with us for the discussion, former aide to the George W. Bush White House and State Department, Elise Jordan. Good morning to you both.

So Vaughn, flesh out a little bit for people who've heard the name Project 2025. They've seen some of the headlines about it. If you can, get into some of the details and explain to people what exactly is in this document. It's a big one. It's almost a thousand pages long. What it says and really how close Donald Trump is tied to it.

Right, Willie. I think, number one, this is not just Heritage Foundation. This is a longtime conservative group that claims that, hey, we did this back with Ronald Reagan back in 1980. We built a similar sort of conservative document handed over to the Reagan administration to go implement on day one. And that's exactly what they intended to do with this 900 page document. Essentially, it's a playbook of how to operate the departments and the agencies. But there's 100 other allied

groups that are involved in this project, including the likes of Turning Point USA and Charlie Kirk, the Claremont Institute and John Eastman. There are some major figures here that are involved. Russ Vogt is the platform director for the Republican National Committee that is putting together the GOP's official platform for Milwaukee next week. He's one of the key authors of this document. But you also have the likes of John McEntee,

who is overseeing the database of personnel that they are building in order during the transition to pull from in order to staff the thousands of jobs that will need to be filled by political appointees. Who is John McEntee? He was a close personal aide to Donald Trump in the White House and then became the director of personnel. And so in this database, they are currently having conservatives go and fill out essentially an application answering questions about their state and their positions. And then that database is going to be able to be used to staff their the Trump White House in 2025. And what is unique about this is in two weeks before Donald Trump left office, he implemented what was called Schedule F, which transferred thousands of civil servant

jobs and made them political appointment positions here. Joe Biden on day one of his administration rescinded that. Donald Trump and the Heritage Foundation Project 2025 have committed to reimplementing that. And this could be upwards of 50,000 jobs or more civil servants who could be fired and replaced by loyal Donald Trump supporters. So this is vast. It has been in the works for years, ever since 2022. And Donald Trump made those comments. And now it is ready to be implemented by this next administration. Yeah. And Trump's efforts to distance himself from it just don't hold water here in recent days because, you know, some of the headlines coming from it are pretty scary. We

should know President Biden expected to talk about Project 2025 during his campaign event in Michigan later today. So, Vaughn, let's focus in on what this really is. It's about consolidating power at the hands of the president. The idea that the DOJ would answer directly to the Oval Office, just obliterating all the boundaries and guardrails that we've had before surrounding the executive mansion there. Talk to us what that could look like with a potential Donald Trump with more power and more political appointees at his disposal. Right. This comes at the heart of why there could be an effort to file a large part of the civil

workforce here. It is a greater use of the executive branch because they make the case that departments and agencies have gotten out of hand that, you know, to hear J.D. Vance describe it, that 90 percent of the civil workforce in America are liberals. And therefore, when conservatives go and try through their own administration to go and implement conservative policies, they're met by roadblocks of liberal federal workers who do not want to implement those policies. And so what this document would allow is a greater use of the executive through the Department of Justice, through the Department of Agriculture, through the Department of Labor to go in more readily, be able to replace the civil workforce, but also hand greater power to the executive branch, which the folks involved in this project claim is the rightful

power of the president of the United States and that he should be able to operate those departments and those branches as he sees fit. And unlike in the past decades, they say that the president, who would be Donald Trump, should be able to go and enact that. Elise, you've been an employee of the United States State Department. And listening to this description from Vaughn and knowing a little bit about what's in Project 2025, just from reading about it, it sounds like the exact kind of package that Victor Orban would say, yeah, go for it. It's really good. What would happen within the contours of government if this was implemented? You could destroy the infrastructure

of government that's taken so many decades to build up. The Foreign Service, for example, at the State Department, the Civil Service at the State Department, expertise that could not easily be replaced within generations. But to step aside to the political ramifications of this, this is the best story for Democrats right now that they have going and the Biden campaign,

as much as they can keep putting this in the spotlight, because it drives Trump and his campaign probably a little bit nuts because no campaign likes for an outside group to overshadow what they're doing and to say that they're going to be the ones in power. And that's what Heritage has done essentially right now. So they've overstepped their contours. So not only is it a bad story for the Trump campaign, it's also really annoying. So the Justice Department, what would happen to the attorney general of the United States under Project 2025? Let's be very clear. Jeff Clark is

one of the individuals who is involved in this project. And Jeff Clark, folks will recall, was the individual who Donald Trump had sought to make the attorney general right before January 6th in order to help publicly put out there that the election was stolen. Jeffrey Clark has made the case that it is within the power of the presidency to go and investigate who you determine, that it is the Department of Justice of the President of the United States. And it has been a longstanding policy that the attorney general acts separate from the wills of the president of the United States. And it has been a longstanding policy that the attorney general acts separate from the wills of the president.

Of course, I'll go back to when Bill Clinton had his tarmac incident. This is one of the moments here where you can look at Jeffrey Clark as potentially an attorney general. These are the individuals that are building out a vision of the Department of Justice that Donald Trump has audibly spoken the words

that he wants to use to go after people like Jack Smith, people like Fannie Willis, people like Alvin Bragg. That is what that Department of Justice could very well look like. They put it on paper. So this is the 2025 and the dangers posed by it has been the Democrats efforts of counter-programming to the furor around President Biden's debate performance. And it seems like Republicans are distancing themselves from it a little bit, at least in name. We saw the RNC platform has come out. Walk us through how it sort of softens some of these stances. But like, should we actually trust that? Because it doesn't matter what a platform is. When you're president, you can be president. Right. In large part, these are the folks that are going to be running the administration.

These are Donald Trump's closest allies who put together this Project 2025 document. Now, the GOP platform, it is a little bit more watered down, right? There is language that was removed from the previous platform, which called for a human life amendment to be added to the U.S. Constitution. This new platform that will be voted on by the delegation in Milwaukee, it only says that abortion rights decisions should be made by the states. Project 2025's 900-page document, you know, goes as far as to say that the Comstock Act should be ultimately be prosecuted upon, which bars the mailing of abortion medication around the country. And so this is where Donald Trump is, right? He's political and he understands that a majority of Americans are supportive of women's reproduction rights. And this 900 page

policy document that was published first last year, well, it puts everything on paper and he understands that a lot of this, like how the Department of Justice would be operated, right? That is not necessarily popular with the majority of Americans. And so this is where he has some authors that are from the Project 2025 document. They're also working on the GO of Americans. And so this is where he has some authors that are from the Project 2025 document. They're also working on the GOP platform. Let's be very frank. This is Donald Trump's Republican Party. It is going to be Donald Trump's administration. And the folks that are involved in all of this, we should expect them to be on the front lines come January 2025 if Donald Trump's back in. But it also is a convenient way for old school

Republicans who aren't in touch with Trump's populist vision and they aren't on board with it, whereas they might have the same ideas about the Department of Justice and political revenge. But the foreign policy doesn't necessarily mirror what Donald Trump intends to do or his philosophy is more of an old school, hawkish foreign policy. And so, Willie, I just think as long as the Biden campaign keeps this in the spotlight and not Joe Biden's fumbles, this is a good story for them. Yeah. As we saw, President Biden brought it up last night. You're hearing members of the campaign talk about it. Jamie Harrison, the head of the DNC, talks about it a lot as well. And Gene Robinson, it's interesting looking at Donald Trump's statement, trying to put some distance between himself and Project 2025. He clearly knows all the people involved with it and knows all the policy platforms that are in there. He said parts of it are, quote,

absolutely ridiculous and abysmal. Now, why would Donald Trump say that? Because there's a lot in there about abortion that he knows will harm his campaign among women, among independent voters in swing states. For example, Project 2025 wants the FDA to rescind its approval of Mifepristone, the abortion pill and roll back abortion rights. Also takes a shot at the National Weather Service, wants to scale that back because Project 2025 and its authors feel has been too alarmist about climate change. Donald Trump could try to distance himself, but these are his people pushing forward what could be the agenda of his administration. Yeah, these are his people. A lot of these are his ideas.

Remember, he goes on and on about the deep state. This is an attempt to get rid of essentially essentially, to hollow out the federal government, the federal government workforce, which has so many years of deep experience and expertise. Look, this is just another reason why the prospect of another Donald Trump presidency is so dangerous and just simply unacceptable. He could change this country in ways that it would take us I don't know how long to recover from, if indeed we could. And that's why the stakes are so high in this election. And we're going to be on this knife's edge, I fear, until November.