Morning Joe - Morning Joe 7/13/23

Episode Date: July 13, 2023

Biden arrives in Finland after NATO summit

The idea that I'm biased against conservatives seems somewhat insane to me, given my own personal background. This notion that somehow the violence at the Capitol on January 6th was part of some operation orchestrated by FBI sources and agents is ludicrous. Among the things that you listed off, I find ironic the reference to the lab leak theory. The idea that the FBI would somehow be involved in suppressing references to the lab leak theory is somewhat absurd, insane, ludicrous, ironic, absurd. FBI Director Christopher Wray, a lifelong Republican appointed by Donald Trump defending himself from members of his own party yesterday in a lengthy, intense hearing that was more about political theater than substance. We'll show you more of his testimony, including what he said about where Trump was hiding classified documents.

Meanwhile, the Justice Department is appealing the 18 year prison sentence for Oath Keepers founder Stuart Rhodes for his role in the January 6th Capitol riot. We'll explain why. And speaking of the insurrection, a pro-Trump supporter who was at the Capitol that day is suing Fox News for defamation, claiming the network pushed a, quote, fantastical story about him. And they did day after day after day after day. Oh, boy. How many lawsuits against Fox News? Ray Epps and his wife have had to move to an undisclosed location because their life has been threatened so many times

because of the lies that a former Fox News host told about them. So new this morning, Hollywood actors are swapping scripts for picket signs as failed negotiations late last night set the stage for another strike in the entertainment industry. This is a big one. It is a big one, Willie. I mean, I got a lot to talk about today. Obviously, the strike. Also, Ray Epps. That's incredible. What's happened to him? Tragic what's happened to him and his wife. But but also the Christopher Wray testimony yesterday. If you want to look at how perverse Trumpism is and what it's done to my former party, look no further than the disrespect they show to the FBI,

talking about defunding the FBI, lying about the FBI, making up conspiracy theories about the FBI, attacking a lifelong Republican and a Donald Trump supporter and a person appointed by Donald Trump, all because they wouldn't let him break the law. And they want to defund the FBI on another committee. They're not letting our military budget go through because, well, they want to make, they want to have culture wars there, just like the Marine Corps doesn't have a commandant for the first time in 150 years because they want to wage a cultural war instead of help Democrats

strengthen military readiness. Yeah. Director Wray, as he took those questions for five hours yesterday inside that hearing, he almost wanted to see what was in the thought bubble outside his head. He would compose himself and then say something a little bit more professional than he probably wanted to say, as we saw some highlights in those clips. But it was embarrassing. If some of the people in that room were capable of embarrassment, they might be embarrassed by the line of questioning that they were pushing on Director Wray.

Some of the conspiracy theories, as you said, that they were pushing on him. And ultimately, Joe, he did comment in a sort of backwards way about the Mar-a-Lago investigation, about the way those documents were seized. And yes, about the way they were stored. He talked about skiffs, those secure rooms. They're used to look at documents that are classified. And he said, I'm pretty sure a bathroom, a ballroom and a bedroom are not skiffs. So that was as far as he went. But he he did have some things to say and we'll get into it in a minute. All right. Along with Joe, Willie and me, we have U.S. special correspondent for BBC News, Katty Kay and MSNBC contributor Mike

Barnicle with us morning. And President Biden is in Helsinki this morning welcoming the newest member of NATO. Finland joined last year, a move that doubled the alliance's border with Russia. The trip is meant to show NATO's expanding power and influence against Russian President Vladimir Putin. But Biden's visit also marks a stark contrast to Donald Trump's trip to Finland's capital almost exactly five years ago. We all remember that. Many people are calling that the Lemire summit. It was.

Then President Trump famously stood by Vladimir Putin and defended the Russian president's denials of election interference, going against the findings of U.S. intelligence on the world stage. Just now, President Putin denied having anything to do with the election interference in 2016. Every U.S. intelligence agency has concluded that Russia did. What, who, my first question for you, sir, is who do you believe? My second question is, would you now, with the whole world watching, tell President Putin, would you denounce what happened in 2016 and would you warn him to never do it again? So let me just say that we have two thoughts.

You have groups that are wondering why the FBI never took the server. Why haven't they taken the server? Why was the FBI told to leave the office of the Democratic National Committee? I've been wondering that. I've been asking that for months and months, and I've been tweeting it out and calling it out on social media. Where is the server? I want to know where is the server and what is the server saying? With that being said, all I can do is ask the question.

My people came to me. Dan Coats came to me and some others. They said they think it's Russia. I have President Putin. He just said it's not Russia. I will say this. I don't see any reason why it would be. But I really do want to see the server.

That looks a little scruffy. Yeah. You know, first of all, Donald Trump actually siding with Vladimir Putin, an ex-KGB agent, guy that kills politicians that oppose him and kills journalists who write bad things about him. It's quite a glare that Vladimir Putin, I never noticed it before, gave to Jonathan Lemire there after the question was asked. And Willie, if you'll remember, you know, Lemire, he's, you know, we've cleaned him up a little bit. He looked kind of scruffy there.

He did. He was like a South Boston punk there. And I don't know if you remember, but he got in a shoving match with some of Vlad's punks. I think this was the location. Pushing each other out. I mean, rough days. He's looking, he's, let me tell you,

Willie cleaned up now, but he still has the dark soul of the South Boston punk. He does. And he went toe to toe with Vladimir Putin's security forces and lived to tell the tale. And if you look at that side by side, certainly has changed his approach to his hair in the five years since Helsinki. Credit to the hair and makeup department here at MSNBC.

But let's give him a chance to defend himself. That is Jonathan Lemire, White House bureau chief at Politico. Of course, the host of Way Too Early. Joining us from Helsinki, also with us here at the table in New York, president, founder of Eurasia Group, GZERO Media, Ian Bremmer. Good morning, Ian. Good to have you with us. So, John, we'll let you defend yourself on the hair five years ago at Helsinki,

but more broadly, the contrast that we're seeing five years later with this president in that same city. Yeah, we were all so much younger then, weren't we? Yes, credit to the hair and makeup team there at MSNBC for my glow up ahead of my return here to Helsinki. But it is it is a remarkable parallel that we are a U.S. president has returned to the Finnish capital five years to the week, nearly five years to the day since the last time we heard an American president here. And, of course, you just played it. Donald Trump standing alongside Vladimir Putin, siding with Putin over his own government about the 2016 election interference, taking Putin's side. Now, President Biden is here touting the addition of Finland to an alliance meant as a bulwark to stop that very same Russian leader. The world has changed dramatically in the five years since our last time in Helsinki. We'll be hearing from President Biden later today,

coming off the heels of that NATO summit, which we'll get to in a minute. And he will talk about how Finland really strengthens the alliance and also just how all of the West, the idea of multilateral alliances has been revitalized because of that man, Vladimir Putin. And of course, the shadow of Donald Trump still looms larger in Helsinki. He is, of course, a leading contender to be president again in 2024, were he to win. And that is something that gives these allies great anxiety, his potential return. The idea that the United States is back, but there are concerns as to back for how long. Hey, Jonathan, five years is a snap of a finger in terms of history. Of course, five years ago, it was before you outfitted yourself in better suits

and shirts and ties and stuff like that. But could you please talk a bit about what is a striking contrast to many people, just the visuals from the president, President Biden's trip this week. And when you were there five years ago with President Trump, there was a particularly striking visual yesterday of President Biden with his arm around President Schultz of Germany, both of them laughing and smiling with one another. And it was a striking contrast to what had happened during the Trump administration. No question there, Mike. Let's remember that Trump's visit to Helsinki five years ago came just days after he was in NATO at the Brussels, the NATO's headquarters, and threatened to pull the United States out of that alliance. That was also five years ago. He was talked out of it, but he nearly detonated the signature post-World War II multinational

alliance. And instead, now we have President Biden here expanding it. Finland is in. Sweden is on a path to be in as well. And you mentioned it, he certainly enjoys a warm camaraderie with a number of the European leaders. And he had a positive meeting with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, which was the real headline yesterday. Zelensky had come to Vilnius really angry, thought that NATO was dragging their feet, that he was frustrated that they were not going to get his country into the alliance. But after 24 hours of diplomacy meeting with Biden and others, he changed his tune.

And in fact, in his meeting with President Biden yesterday, I was able to ask President Zelensky, was he satisfied? Was this enough? Did he get enough assurances from the allies? And he said he did. There was more military assurance, more security promised. Yes, Ukraine, he still wants to join NATO eventually. But for the moment, that tension has dissipated. And now the return to focusing on its counteroffensive against Russia. Let's watch that moment. Jonathan Lemire asking President Zelensky yesterday at the NATO summit about how he feels now about the security

guarantees from the United States and from NATO. President Zelensky, are you satisfied with what you got from NATO? You were so frustrated yesterday. Is this enough? Are you satisfied, sir? I think at the end of summit, we had great unity from our leaders and security guarantees that the success for this summit. I think so, but it's my opinion. Thank you. So, Ian Bremmer, indeed, a huge contrast from 24 hours earlier where President Zelensky was calling NATO weak,

saying it was inviting Russian terrorism by not allowing Ukraine into NATO right away, filled with gratitude yesterday in a tweet in that moment there toward President Biden in the United States. So what is the significance? What was the impact of what we saw over the last couple of days in Vilnius, both practically and symbolically? Well, first, why did Zelensky shift? And I think part of the reason for that is because the Polish government, the Baltic governments, right up until the beginning of the summit, were pushing really hard for we need concrete dates. We need a calendar. We need to know when NATO is going to welcome Ukraine formally. And President Biden and the White House were telling these people back channel that is not cannot happen right now. But they weren't listening. Biden went out on television just a week,

over the previous weekend, made it very, very clear. But right up until the day of the summit, you still had the polls and the balts making that case and making that case, talking to Zelensky. So he came in thinking that it was gonna go more strongly than it could have. Having said that, once you put all the allies in the room, you do show far more significant consolidation of political policies than you ever had in NATO before the invasion. Of course, you got the announcement from the Turks that allowed Sweden to join, which was a big win for the summit just to kick it off. guarantees by NATO that are telling the Ukrainians that they're going to get ongoing

intelligence support, cyber defenses, training and military support, irrespective of who the government is. That's a hard thing to break. That's a that's a multilateral, ongoing commitment that allows Zelensky to go back fighting a war with a counteroffensive that isn't going so well so far and saying these guys still have my back. I mean, the big question is not so much what happened over the last two days in Vilnius. The big question is, are we presently at peak NATO? Can we continue this as American public support, Republicans and Democrats for the Ukrainian defense continues to diminish? And as we enter into the 2024 electoral cycle. You know, Katty Kay, I remember a couple of weeks after the invasion,

one early Saturday morning, doing what I do every early Saturday morning, and that is driving to go get Mika's coffee. And I turned on BBC while I was going there to listen. I was curious what the response was. And they were talking about Germany and some of the moves Germany was going to be taking. It was when there was that real shift to Germany talking about expanding their military budgets. And I thought this is really this is such such a pivotal time. And I think we're seeing history shift pretty dramatically here. But the question has lingered. Will Europe continue to stand shoulder to shoulder with the United States and with Ukraine? So far, it seems they are. If you look at those pictures of Zelensky and people like the British prime minister seem desperate to get in there and pat

him on the arm. Talk about Europe remaining steadfast and if there are concerns about possible cracks in the alliance at any point moving forward. Yeah, I mean, who was the star of this NATO summit? Zelensky just has to show up. He did the same thing in Japan at the G7 meeting. He gets the press conference with Stoltenberg. He gets to sit next to President Biden. I mean, he is he's right in there. And it's a real tribute to him and to his leadership and the quality of his leadership that I think Ukraine has managed to keep the allies as unified as they can. And you point to some cracks. You had the UK defense secretary pretty firmly saying to President Zelensky, look, you need to show gratitude. And I think it was a

political schooling lesson as much as anything. And he pointed Ben Wallace to the problems on Capitol Hill. I mean, he said, look, there are people in Congress who do not want to carry on with the kinds of funding that we've had so far. The Europeans are pretty united, but they're also aware that their own stocks are being depleted, that this has gone on for 18 months now. So far, European nations seem to be unified. There doesn't seem to be much political pressure on either France, Germany or the UK to scale back the amount of commitment that they're giving. And NATO can point to big wins just at this summit. The border with NATO has just increased by 800 miles. It's doubled NATO's border with Russia, having Finland on board. And Sweden is about to join. And Ukraine

has got these security guarantees. I think for the moment there is as much unity in Europe as one might have as one might reasonably be able to expect, given how long this has gone on and given how much money and weapons are being poured into Ukraine. If it goes if Ukraine does badly in the counteroffensive, I think that's when you'll start to have more questions about how much more the European Union and NATO are prepared to finance this. So, Ian, since we have you here, I wanted to ask you a question just on a side note that I think is fascinating when we're looking at the strength of the alliance, certainly in the West. The big concern was Maloney, the new Italian prime minister, right wing populist from Berlusconi School of Politics. Berlusconi obviously was pro Putin, considered to be a neo fascist by many in the West. She's been supportive, as supportive as any Western ally, it seems, and always seems to get right in the front, shaking his hands.

And here he is pulling her over. Again, I think it's great news. I'm glad there's been this change from the campaigner to the prime minister. What's happening there? And what does this tell us? Yeah, what does it signify for greater Europe? Well, the fact is that Maloney has been strongly aligned on economic policy with the EU,

which a lot of people were concerned about in terms of their debt, in terms of how they're engaging with Brussels and the Germans and the EU, which a lot of people were concerned about in terms of their debt, in terms of how they're engaging with Brussels and the Germans and the French, also has been strongly positive NATO all the way through against the Russians. And Berlusconi, post his death, his party's falling apart. So Maloney's only stronger. She is very, very consistent with the concerns that everyone had about her on issues like immigration, on issues like gay rights and the rest. So it's not like she's suddenly given up on her ideological base. But for this issue, she's strong. The concerns going forward about NATO are overwhelmingly about what happens post Biden, overwhelmingly about what happens with American

support. And of course, the U.S. is responsible for more than a majority of the military support that goes to Ukraine globally. The U.S. is the dominant military power. So all our eyes are on us, not on the Europeans on this issue. And is that what you're hearing as far as concerns about America? I do hear that from from foreign diplomats. I hear it from leaders. Sure. You're sure Biden's in there and sure, the United States is back for now. But what happens a year and a half from now? Do you hear that a lot?

What happens when presumably Trump gets the nomination? I mean, there's now an assumption on the part of the European allies that Trump will be the GOP nominee. That means that he's going to have more control over the party. Will the GOP leadership continue to maintain present policies on NATO maintain present policies on NATO, present policies on Russia once Trump gets the nomination before the election itself? There's enormous concern about that. And does Biden want to be stronger in terms of Ukraine in NATO when Trump then suddenly has that to run against? It's harder to run against ambiguity on an issue like NATO. That's a discussion in the White House, too.

Ian Brimmer, thank you so much, as always. It's great seeing you. Jonathan O'Meara, what do you have planned for today? Well, I'm going to cover the president here in Helsinki, Joe. He's got a series of events later on. He's meeting with, yeah, he's meeting with the Finnish prime minister. He's there's a Nordic state summit. And then he has a news conference. So, yes, five years ago, when Donald Trump stood with Vladimir Putin, this time President Biden will stand with the leader of Finland. And certainly they will talk about the addition of Finland to NATO. They will talk about this alliance.

It is a remarkable parallel. Let's recall, it was five years ago when Vladimir Putin came here to Helsinki to meet with Donald Trump. The night before, the very night before, he presided over the final of the World Cup, which was held in Russia. There could be very little more of an acceptance on the global stage than that. And now, five years later, he's an international pariah. The world has changed so much since the American media attention was focused here on the Finnish capital. And we'll, of course, have complete coverage all day long. Looking forward to that.

Jonathan Lemire, thank you so much for your reporting. We appreciate it. We'll see you soon. And still ahead on Morning Joe, National Security Council spokesman John Kirby joins us on the heels of President Biden's meeting with Ukrainian President Zelensky at the NATO summit yesterday. Plus, we'll turn to the 2024 GOP primary race and new reporting about the growing number of Ron DeSantis donors voicing concern about his presidential campaign. Also ahead, the deadline has passed for Hollywood to avoid a major actor strike. We'll go over what happens next after those failed negotiations late last night. And Americans got some unexpectedly good news on inflation yesterday.

Steve Ratner joins us next with more on what it means for the U.S. economy. And yes, he's got his charts. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. Welcome back. 26 past the hour. FBI Director Christopher Wray appeared before the House Judiciary Committee yesterday for nearly five hours. Wray's Republican, right? He's appointed by Donald Trump. So he's a Trump appointee and Trump only the best people. A Trump appointed Republican.

Trump appointed Republican. OK, yeah. So he fielded questions from some of the same members of Congress who have recently called for his impeachment. Those are Republicans too. So Republicans want to impeach a Republican? Why? Trump Republicans want to impeach a Trump appointed Republican. Why? Despite being appointed by Donald Trump and a registered Republican voter, Republican lawmakers have baselessly accused Wray of using the FBI to target those with conservative beliefs, including the former president himself. Director Wray was having none of it. There is a two tier justice system that has been weaponized to persecute people

based on their political beliefs and that you have personally been weapon that you have personally worked to weaponize the FBI against conservatives. I would disagree with your characterization of the FBI and certainly your description of my own approach. The idea that I'm biased against conservatives seems somewhat insane to me, given my own personal background. You preside over the FBI that has the lowest level of trust in the FBI's history. People trusted the FBI more when J. Edgar Hoover was running the place

than when you are. And the reason is because you don't give straight answers. Respectfully, Congressman, in your home state of Florida, the number of people applying to come work for us and devote their lives working for us

is up over a hundred percent. January 6th was a beyond a weaponization of government. It was a nuclearization of government against the government. I think Tucker Carlson and some of the members, colleagues on the other side of the aisle have said that Ray Epps was a secret government agent in helping encourage this crime so as to make the president look bad. Do you have any knowledge of Ray Epps being a secret government agent? No. I will say this notion that somehow the violence at the Capitol on January 6th was part of some operation orchestrated by FBI sources and agents is ludicrous. I want to use and examine the case of the Mar-a-Lago documents

because it's been used by the former president as a pitying moment, as though he has somehow been victimized. I don't want to be commenting on the pending case, but I will say that there are specific rules about where to store classified information and that those need to be stored in a SCIF, a secure compartmentalized information facility. And in my experience, ballrooms, bathrooms and bedrooms are not SCIFs. Mike Barnicle, this went on for five hours yesterday. Director Wray sat in that chair, calmly rebutted and took down some conspiracy theories and defended the FBI. I have to say it is disorienting. And Joe has made this point many times.

And probably for you, someone who's covered Republicans for a long time to see Republican members of Congress attacking with such venom, the FBI attacking the military, attacking the Justice Department, all these law enforcement stalwarts. Now they view as part of a deep state conspiracy. And why are they doing all this? It goes back to the root of defending Donald Trump. Yeah, it's an extremely unusual way of trying to grow your political party to take on one of the more legendary, certainly, elements of government and one of the more honored elements of government, the Federal Bureau of Investigation. And then, as you point out, in addition to that, they have attacked the American military on many and many occasions and they continue to do it. Now, is it a fringe

of the Republican Party? Is it the majority of the existing Republican Party in Congress? That we don't know. But I don't think it's a majority, even close to a majority of the existing Republican Party in Congress that we don't know. But I don't think it's a majority even close to a majority of Republican voters out there. Even Republican voters should be offended at the totally ignorant approach. Many members of that party took yesterday against director. I mean, the problem, Mike, is that the leaders of the House Republicans are talking this way. The people that are running the committees, some of the most powerful, some of those most influential people hate law enforcement. They hate the FBI. They hate the premier law enforcement agency in America. They hate military leaders. They're constantly trashing the United States military. It's crazy what they're

doing. They're blocking the Marine Corps, the United States Marine Corps, from having a commandant for the first time in 150 years. They say they wish American military people could be as tough and masculine as the Russian military. I mean, are you kidding me? Would we like to ask the Russian military? And you know what we ought to do? We ought to talk to those 500 Wagner Group thugs that rushed the United States military and asked, oh, we can't. They're all killed in like two or three minutes. You know, I think the U.S. troops were probably watching MLB and somebody said, Russians are attacking us. They go, OK, kill them. And then they went back to the game before the end of the inning. It was over just like that. And you've got Republicans saying that they want our troops to be more like Russia. the FBI because the FBI is trying to actually enforce laws against people who steal nuclear secrets. And this is what Chris Wray said yesterday. Defunding the FBI like these Republicans

want to defund the FBI. It would hurt the American people, neighborhoods and communities all across this country. The people who are protecting from cartels, violent criminals, gang members, predators, foreign and domestic terrorists, and cyber attacks. These Republicans want to gut an agency that protects Americans from terrorists, foreign and domestic, from people who are trying to steal their identities,

from people who are draining money out of their parents' and grandparents' bank accounts, drug cartels who are trying to push more and more fentanyl into this country. That is who the House Republicans have have declared to be their enemy. have been attacked is because of the work of the FBI, because of the investigations that they have carried out on foreign and increasingly on domestic terrorists who would like to do harm to American people. Without the FBI, the chances of some kind of attack on the United States grow exponentially. I thought what was really interesting

about the hearings yesterday was how Chris Wray just managed to keep it super low key. He didn't give people like Matt Gates that opportunity, that clip where you saw the director of the FBI getting angry, which it felt at times like Matt Gates was trying to rile him into doing that. And he also turned the tables a bit and he said, listen, why have the number of people applying to the FBI from your state, from Florida and from Texas gone up by something like 100 percent if the American population is so opposed and thinks, you know, that this is a terrible

institution. I think he handled it as well as he possibly could, given the kinds of attacks and the conspiracy theories that he was having to deal with. So you heard Director Wray dismissing the idea that a man named Ray Epps was working for the government on January 6th. Who is Ray Epps? Well, he is a Trump supporter who became the focus of right wing conspiracy theories after he protested in Washington on January 6th, 2021. Now he has filed a defamation lawsuit against Fox News and former host Tucker Carlson for claiming Epps was an undercover FBI agent who helped to provoke the Capitol attack. In the lawsuit, Epps accuses Fox of telling a, quote, fantastical story that he acted as a government sponsored instigator of the violence on January 6th. And that Carlson's repeated segments about Epps, quote, destroyed his life and his wife's.

The lawsuit details death threats made against Epps, leading him and his wife to sell their home and their land and to move into an RV. Epps was seen on video the night before the January 6th attack. This is on January 5th, telling other Trump supporters that they should go into the Capitol the next day. But body camera video taken during the attack shows Epps asking law enforcement officers on the 6th how he can assist them with offers to help move rioters back from the police line. The footage from the day before the attack spread online in right-wing circles and fueled conspiracy theories that Epps secretly worked for the federal government.

According to the lawsuit, FBI investigators met with Epps in March of 2021 and removed his photo from its website of wanted suspects a few months later. Fox News did not immediately respond to a request for comment. An attorney for Carlson declined to comment as well. So, Joe, Ray Epps was there on January 6th. A big Trump supporter from Arizona came into town for that day for what he thought was going to be a rally. And his crime was on camera telling police when he thought things were getting out of control. Let me help you out here. Let's get some people back away from the police line. And for that, he is viewed as a tool of the government, a tool of the deep state. And

this conspiracy went on for months and months and months. And Fox News pushed it almost every night. He had to move out of state, move to a different state, sell his home, now lives in an RV. But with this defamation lawsuit, I suspect he'll be looking for some more expensive real estate. Well, I mean, his life, he's right. His life's been ruined. The lies were told day in and day out and day in and day out. It was a conspiracy theory, much like a conspiracy theory against those poll workers in Georgia. I mean, the lies that they told about ordinary people just just living their lives. And by the way, I mean,

Ray Epps is attacked by these far right freaks and conspiracy theorists, he's attacked for doing exactly what these far right freaks claimed everybody did, which was, oh, they just went up to the Capitol. It was just a rally. It was just a rally. And so Ray Epps was saying, yeah, let's go up to the Capitol and protest. But you're exactly right. When things get out of hand, you can see on the video he's like he's like you know hey he's doing what i would hope well what i know any good patriotic american

would do we'd be like hey hey the cops have a job to do respect them let's let let's let's not hurt let's not hurt anybody let's keep not hurt anybody. Let's keep this in line. And so that was the lie that people on Fox News were telling about everybody, saying, oh, well, look, look, I mean, we're talking about Tucker Carlson. He got the video and showed it, just say, oh, this was just another day in paradise, just another peaceful day of protesting, when in fact, Ray Epps was set up as an FBI stooge, according to these people, because that's exactly what he did. And Mike Barnicle, his life has been ruined.

He, and imagine, like you talk to politicians who have been attacked by people, I don't even say their names, certain people who used to work for Fox News, their security had to increase. Their lives were ruined. And day in and day out, here you have this guy, not a public figure. Let me say that again, not a public figure, not used to this and the death threats the security problems that they had i'm telling you if if i'm representing fox news i'm saying get your checkbook out and start writing they already have to a few times well they're going to have to do it again and and tucker

carlson's probably going to have to do it again because this guy's not a public figure. It's not going to be really hard for him to prove defamation. Well, there you go, Joe. And that's exactly the point. If you look at the timeline of the number of times on on television, national television, that Ray Epps was attacked verbally, implicated verbally, rhetorically into a plot that he was a government agent. It's astounding. Even after they were corrected, even after they had substantial proof that Ray Epps was nothing of the kind, they continued with it. Specifically, Tucker did. Continued with it. And his life was badly damaged. Badly damaged. I don't know whether it was ruined or not because he hopefully he has a lot of life left to live. You don't want to wish that upon anybody.

But badly damaged, as Willie pointed out, forced to sell his real estate in Arizona, I believe. His home leave. He's living in an RV now. Hopefully, you know, he'll be able to buy a ranch after they settle with him because they're going to have to settle with him because you raise the key point, Joe. He was not not a public guy. He's a private citizen and damaged beyond belief continually night after night after night. And, you know, I'm going to say, Willie, it's really it shows you how screwed up their thinking is that they think a guy that says, hey, let's do something very American. Let's go to the United States Capitol and protest. Express our feelings.

Let's express our feelings. Even if we disagree with him, it's a very American thing to do. Protest. But the second things get out of hand. He starts saying, hey, ask the cops. Hey, this is a good as far as I'm concerned. I don't care who he voted for and he believes conspiracy theories. Well, it's because he's been fed him. But that like a guy that says, ask cops who were under duress. Hey, how can I

help? Tell me what can I do? Good on him. But the fact that that makes him a suspect for these insurrectionists and these weirdos and these freaks show just how screwed up they are and what valueless voids they are when it comes to patriotism. And it just shows how desperate many of those people were in trying to find some way to tell a story that January 6th actually was not what we all knew it to be because we watched it with our own eyes. No, there was something else going on. Don't be fooled by the media. Don't be fooled by your own eyes. And then they found this central character. Let's use this guy, Ray Epps. The night before, he's telling people to go to the Capitol. But then on the 6th, he's telling people to fall back. He must be a part of a deep

state conspiracy. Certain people bought it. I must be a part of a deep state conspiracy. Certain people bought it. I think the vast majority of the country did not. But now it's clear that pretty clear anyway that Fox News is going to owe Ray Epps a whole bunch of money. All right. Coming up, the markets are up before the bell following yesterday's surge tied to better than expected inflation data.

Steve Ratner joins us next with more insight on those numbers and what it means for the future of interest rates. Morning Joe is back in just a moment. All right. Forty six past the hour. It's pretty early in L.A. The sun has not come up, but the city looks absolutely beautiful. Just beautiful. We're following developing news out of Hollywood where actors are one step closer to joining screenwriters on the picket lines. The union representing the actor SAG-AFTRA says it failed to reach a deal on a new contract with major studios and streamers. The union had set a midnight deadline to reach an agreement on higher wages and safeguards around the use of artificial intelligence.

But officials say the studio's responses have, quote, been insulting and disrespectful. Well, that's never a good sign. Not good. Now the union negotiating committee has voted unanimously to recommend its national board to order a strike. That board is set to meet later today. The union representing screenwriters has been on strike since May after their contract negotiations also failed. The move delayed the filming of some high-profile movies and paused late-night talk shows. If the actors also go on strike,

it will be the first time in 60 years that both groups have walked out. Boy, Mike Barnicle, that is, at some point, this really starts to put a dent in the media company's bottom line. Yeah, we'll we'll find that out this fall when all the new TV shows don't show up on your TV. Oh, boy. And all the new made for TV movies on Amazon and Apple don't show up on your TV. You'll find that out at home. The other misnomer about this, I would think, is a lot of people hear these stories,

hear us reporting on these stories and they think, oh, a bunch of actors and screenwriters, they all make a lot of money. You know, good luck to them. They don't. They don't. Especially the screenwriters. It's a day-to-day financial existence. A lot of them are nearing financial ruin in this long, long strike. It's a long strike that's been going on here.

And hopefully they'll get it resolved not only for the benefit of the writers and the actors, but for the benefit of the consumers of what they produce. And you look at the actors and people look at people on on big, big movies, you know, Hollywood stars, they don't they don't realize that, you realize that 99% of the actors are struggling to try to get into local theater, try to get into, if they're lucky, an off-Broadway show or even a Broadway show. But for most actors, again, it's a day-to-day existence, a week-to-week existence. So really, Willie, we're hoping that this is going to get resolved and resolved favorably for the screenwriters and the actors soon. Yeah, I hope so. I really hope so. And that's such an important point you guys both made.

For every Brad Pitt and Scarlett Johansson, there are thousands and thousands of actors struggling, auditioning every day, trying to get their next job and working job to job. And they need health insurance and need all the things that the rest of us hope to have and have in our lives. So this is an important negotiation. They haven't gone on strike actors since 1980. It's been a long time. And what it means is today, if the strike is voted and we have every expectation it will and go into effect, it means people on movie sets are going home. If Meryl Streep's shooting a movie, she's going to her trailer this morning, and then she's taking a ride home.

So this is real for now. Some big movies out in the next couple of weeks, but this could, depending on how long it goes on, this could really slow things down as we move into the fall. Yeah, it really could. All right, well, yeah, we will be following that. Now it's time in the morning. This is obviously, Willie, this is a big, big time.

It is. It's the Southwest wall. Yeah. Lit up like a Christmas tree. It is. And listen, can we have our theme music? I don't know if they have. I think we need to start playing the wall.

Okay, we can do that. Another brick in the wall when we go to Steve Ratner. New data shows U.S. inflation has cooled more dramatically than many economists expected. Joining us now is former Treasury official and Morning Joe economic analyst Steve Ratner. I was kind of hoping the music would show up. No, the music never showed up, but Steve did, and that's really all the kids want to see. Steve, so big news yesterday. No, music never showed up, but Steve did. And that's really all the kids want to see. Steve. So big news yesterday. Were you surprised by the numbers?

Yeah, we were, I think, all a bit surprised. I wouldn't say they were vastly different than what we expected, but they were better than expected. And the expectations were pretty positive as well. So when you put it together, I think we were all quite excited and pleased by what we saw. And I can show you a few charts that'll help illustrate that. So we'll start over here with the basic year-over-year numbers. And we'll start with this red line, which is a number that people in America focus on, which is what we call headline inflation. It's all the prices put together and what happened to them. And you can see that exactly a year ago, it peaked at 9.1 percent and it has come all the way down to 3 percent. That was yesterday's number. And that's why people are so excited at this at this steep drop. These are two other measures of inflation that economists and the Fed pay close attention

to. One excludes food and energy, which are very volatile prices, as you know. And one focuses on this green line, core, focuses on really services, core services like hospitality, professional services, things like that, because that shows you what's happening better in the labor markets, which is very important for inflation. You can see it even more dramatically to some degree over here. This is simply comparing the June increases to what happened in the first five months of the year. And so you can see, again, headline went from there to there. Core went from there to there. And core services did not go up at all in June. So it's only one month, but it was a good month. So, Steve, let's get specific, because these prices that hit people every day are going down. We're talking about things like gasoline, groceries and rent.

Yeah. So after months and months of this stuff going up and prices that people pay every day looking worse and worse, you've had a huge reversal in some of them. And you mentioned gasoline. Gasoline peaked, was it a year ago? Was it four sixty five a gallon? It's now three fifty a gallon on average in America. So it's actually falling, as you said. Food at home, which was going up at almost 14% a couple of years ago, a year and a half or so ago, is now going up at less than 4%. Rent, which is a proxy for housing, is how we think about housing, up only about 2%. Airline fares, which obviously didn't move a lot when people were traveling, then they surged when they were traveling, are now down 18 percent from their peak. And used cars, which was another covid kind of phenomenon whenever we rushed out to buy cars, are now down 10 percent from their peak.

So the picture is obviously very different than it was and much more positive for the economy and for Joe Biden, of course. And Steve, as we look at your third chart, the other fascinating number yesterday was that real wages were up. So you put these two things together, wages up, inflation down, paints a much better picture than we've seen for at least two years. Exactly, Willie. So this shows you month by month whether people's wages were staying ahead of inflation or falling behind inflation. Red is bad. Blue is good. And you can see that during the pandemic when inflation was very high, even though wages were going up robustly, inflation was much stronger. And so you had month after month of Americans losing purchasing power.

But what's happened in the last eight months or so is that wages have started to go up. And this is the 2018 to 2019 average. It was about a little bit under 1% before the pandemic. It's actually more like 1.5% these last few months. They may not sound like big numbers, but it at least means people have more money in their pocket. But the last point that has to be made, I don't want to suggest that we're out of the woods completely, that this whole inflation problem is over. There's still a ways to go. As you know, the Fed's target is 2%.

So even 3% or 4%, if you look at core, is well above the Fed's target. What has to happen? And I know this may sound counterintuitive, but wage increases have to moderate a bit because they feed into inflation. And they have moderated, but they have only moderated down to about 4.5% or so. They need to come down further. And this is why the Fed will increase, almost certainly increase, interest rates by another quarter of a point when it meets at the end of July. I just want to make one last point about this chart, because this separates out this dotted

line, what we call production and non-supervisory workers, kind of everyday workers, blue collar workers, people on the front lines, not managers and so on. This is everybody. And the fact that this line is above that line means that people at the bottom are actually seeing faster increases than people at the top. So we've also had a bit of narrowing. I'm not going to say it's huge in the context of the problem. A bit of narrowing of income inequality over this period of time as well.

So it's almost all good news. We do have to face another Fed increase and we do have to get inflation back to 2 percent. But we're making progress. So Steve, according to your charts, people have finally found some sense of relief in the two Gs, which are critical to living, gasoline and groceries prices. Give us a mark, give us a grade on the Fed, if you would, how they've been doing this with the incremental interest rate increases, what's going to happen in July and what kind of an impact are you looking for in what the Fed does or doesn't do? Well, that's a great question, Mike. And look, the Fed was behind the curve at the beginning. It was part of why inflation got out of control. It

believed that COVID's impact was going to be greater than it turned out to be. And it kept interest rates at zero for too long. It is now reverse course. It's been raising them, I think, doing a much better job of trying to get this all under control. And what they need to do and what they're trying to do without trying to achieve the quintessential soft landing to get inflation down without the economy going into recession. That's why they're going to have to increase interest rates a bit more, because this is still too high. This is still too high. And so they will see what that does, and then they will kind of proceed from there. There are still 9.8 million unfilled jobs in this country, which, again, we would like to think of as a good thing.

But that many unfilled jobs makes it harder for this number to come down a bit more closer to this average so that we can get inflation back to the 2 percent level. Well, and and globally, the United States much for your contributions at the Southwest Wall, sort of the green monster of morning television. And there he is and still ahead.